Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Maren Morris

Episode Date: August 29, 2024

Fresh off her performance at the DNC, Maren Morris — singer-songwriter, activist, and mom — is in a new chapter of her life. She’s doing things her way, and is not afraid to use her voice to stand up for what's right.The Grammy-winning artist talks to Sophia about her emotional journey, from the highs of her recent DNC performance to the lows of coping with postpartum depression, being a different person now than she was five years ago, standing by everything she has said when she’s stood up for people in the past, and why she decided to come out as bisexual when she did. Plus, Maren opens up about using her art to navigate through the pain of divorce, finding the courage to hit the reset button on her life, and exploring personal change in her new EP, Intermission, which is available now. See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hello, Whipsmarties, welcome back for another episode. This one is, I know I always say I'm excited, but like I am so excited. to have today's guest here. She is a recording artist that I love, but also a person that I adore and that I am so inspired by. Today, we are joined by Marin Morris. She has broken boundaries, smashed records, and affirmed herself as a dynamic, vocalist, prolific songwriter, show-stopping performer, all on her own terms. And she happens to be an incredible person in all of those ways as herself in the world, as an activist, as a mom, as someone who is not afraid to learn out loud. And I am so excited that she's here to talk about her career, her songwriting, her history, her family,

and her latest incredible EP called Intermission. In a recent interview, Marin said that Intermission is the distillation of the strangest year of my life. I decided to hit the scariest reset. I could have ever conceptualized, and there is no. looking back. The lengths one will go to to feel joy again or sometimes desperate and terrifying as I'll get out, but we deserve peace in this very short few trips around the sun. Here's my heart journey and a gamut of emotions packed into five songs. I love this EP so much. I feel so represented. I feel so heard. And I'm really excited to talk to Marin today about her journey to

write it. You know, her experience is becoming an advocate, becoming a mother, going through a divorce, coming out. She has really been living so out loud and so courageously. She has been standing up for people in every brilliant way that she can, from beating back transphobia in the country community, to standing up for black female artists in that industry as well. And really for reminding all of us that it's never too late. Let's dive in. with Marin Morris. Hi, honey, I am so happy to see you. I can't believe that we get to be together just after we were all in Chicago for the DNC.

How was it? It was amazing. I mean, it was such a palpable positivity in the air in Chicago, just, I I was only there that one day that I was performing, but everyone was just in high spirits. Like even at the hotel, there was a dude that was outside of our lobby and he was like, oh, I'm going to just take my city bike over to the DNC. And I was like, cool, I love that for you. It was just, you could feel like an energy in the air, which is so special to have witnessed

like on the ground. Yeah. I think for me, it was really interesting to see that shift because. we've been fighting against something awful for so long, which is so important, you know, like that's the point, right, that we want to leave this world better than the one we inherited from our parents, for our, you know, children and eventual children and their children. And I get why it's so important to stand up against what's wrong. And it also feels really nice to be standing up for what feels right,

for joy and honesty and, you know, everything from people's right. rights to a good economy. Like, it's nice to have something to celebrate again. Yeah, it really is just this injection of hope. And I think that we were without it for so long. So when you have just a tiny dose of it, it feels like a drug almost. But I think with all the building blocks of what this campaign is standing on and just the last you you know eight years of

Trump stuff and me sort of like existing within country music like my top of sort of public facing career has been in this window of MAGA so that's just like an interesting thing that like my album came out in 2016 yeah my first album and just so the whole umbrella of it has sort of been under this this cult and

yeah just kind of navigating my way through that and then having my son four years ago right at the beginning of COVID just so many things really crystallized for me as a mother um but yeah being at the convention having never been to one before um it was really inspiring um being able to listen to actual policy and not just uh you know it's not just celebrities like they're they're you know, our Congress people actually telling us what their plan is. It's, yeah. And then also just what you said, like this, this hopefulness and like positivity of it not about constant jabs at the other side, really about bringing us together and not being divisive.

Like I'm all about a soundbite or like a funny meme, but and we got a lot of those moments from the doom. But I think ultimately I was left with like a pang of hopefulness. So that's, that feels good. Me too. And I think about it a lot. You know, one of the things that's been helpful to me, because there's obviously so much morality in policy, right? Like we're either expanding people's access to rights, we're either protecting our communities or we're hurting people. We're demonizing people. Like that seems so clear to me. And yet, There are folks who want to say, like, well, that's not how you have to, you know, negotiate the future of a country. So then I started going, okay, well, how am I going to get you on the math?

Like, how am I going to look at the numbers and make this stuff make sense to you? If you don't want to talk about morals, I'll talk to you about math, I'll talk to you about the economy and all the rest of it. And it's been really amazing to see the literal studies over the last four years, like the Biden-Harris administration having to pull us out of the absolute bungling of the pandemic by the former president, the total nightmare of public health, you know, adding $8 trillion to the deficit. Like it's crazy when you think about the fact that 25% of the entire U.S. deficit, like in the whole, in the hundreds of years of our country, 25% of that was created under Trump. and to sit here and go, oh, since 1986, Democrats have created 50 million jobs, Republicans have created a million. Like all this math, we've got the proof of it. And you've got these global economists talking about how, you know, after the nightmare of the supply chain and everything getting crazy when COVID started, like not only have our policies here helped our country get

back to historic low inflation, but we've actually lowered inflation around the world. And like, so many people don't want to talk about the math. It's boring. Like I used to go blank in the face when it was happening in front of me. But it makes me so proud because I'm like, no, we get to campaign on civil rights and joy and freedom and bringing everybody to the table and not demonizing our neighbors and we beat you on the math. I love this. I just love this. It's like we had things to celebrate after four years of having to claw our way back from that horrible hateful disaster. And, you know, we were able to do it joyfully and we were able to do it as you said with policy and then like I got to see friends up on stage you know from Kelly Robinson who's the president of the HR CDU singing in that by the way not political at all but that perfect white suit it was so beautiful girl I like I gagged in the best way and I just was like God it's happy to be happy yeah and I think you know Kamala's team is who sort of chose the song that I was going to perform and so I was going to ask. Okay. Yeah. I think it was down between like the middle, the bones or better than we found

it, which I'm really glad that they ended up wanting me to sing that one because, you know, just this moment is so precious and I'm singing through the lens of the camera to my son. And I was, I was, you know, kind of bring up like, you know, it's it's politicized for sure, but something that really brought a lot of people together in Nashville, you know, which is a very progressive, like, blue dot and a red state. And coming from Texas to Tennessee, being able to do a lot of this sort of MAGA or just, you know, growing up conservative too, like really being in a constant argument with family members and like long time friends and like truly trying to understand each other. I lived right across the street last year

from the Covenant shooting in Nashville Oh my goodness And having kind of been through like Route 91, like playing that festival you know six, seven years ago the day before the shooting and like it just really racking the country music community for so long and still so

I have people in my meet and greets that are survivors of that shooting And then to last year, living across the street from Covenant and like having everything shut down for two days, not being able to leave our street, our home, like being afraid of like, can I get my son home from school that day? Like he didn't go to Covenant, but it was just like terrifying. And then driving past the six crosses. Something happened like to the town, obviously, but it brought. women together they brought a lot of mothers together um Tennessee capital um the weeks following and a lot of students that are now you know of age a voting age um so just yeah being

it is sort of coming together for me at the DNC singing that song which I wrote in 2020 like after George Floyd's murder like it was just so many emotions and I didn't really it like affect me until we were live because you just you know you know like women particularly we go into like professional mode and you're kind of impenetrable um because you just have to like get the job done but yeah it was during the performance of better than we found it at the dnc where i just like after i was done i went backstage and just like kind of fell apart a little uh because it's just it's not like just a concert i mean this is really it matters and um or this this event matters um and um and

matters. So yeah, I mean, it was completely celebratory. I was like gagging at Corey Booker's intro of me. I was, I was just like, this is insane. Like I've never felt this sort of camaraderie in love like from, you know, a political party. But it's like politics at the end of the day, it's like they're, it's a they are people. They're people with families, with lives, with things at stake, with wants and needs. And I think, like, you know, not to be cliche, but, like, I do think when I even talk to, you know, my parents or people, like, in the South that, you know,

I don't know if they're going to continue voting for Trump, but they have in the past, at least twice. It's like, I think there's something that feels like it's changing. And I don't know if that's just them supporting me as their daughter or if they truly were just, like, move. to listen to speeches that were happening last week and felt like maybe the dial moved. I don't know. But it's it's kind of interesting and fun to be like a part of that conversation and not just

you know, yapping about it. Totally. Well, and to show up, right? Like even when you talk about, you know, when tragedy befell your community in Nashville last year when the shooting happened in Las Vegas, I don't think it's coincidental that so often you see us show up. You see women show up. You see mothers show up.

You see folks from marginalized communities show up. You see students that are hopeful about their future and also want to demand that they have a better future than the ones that have been sort of sold out from under them by like greedy folks in power. And I think there's no denying. what unity versus hate look like and I think that was sort of like the most profound part of it for me last week

was just seeing everybody come together and you know even folks I've forged friendships with like former Republicans who you know 10 years ago you never could have convinced me I'd be having dinner with or regular phone calls with because I thought oh we're so opposed and it's like no no we actually all really believe in America and we love this country and

And we just believe that everybody has a place here. And what an amazing thing to see folks stand up for country over party. That gives me hope. I mean, does that make you hope for it? Yeah, it is patriotic. And like, I wonder, you know, you talk about your son and he's little. Like, are those sort of the events that make you feel really hopeful for the world we're going to give to him? Yeah, I think when I am looking at people that are,

Just really, really well educated, well spoken. You can kind of tell, cut through the bullshit and know that you, like, you believe them. I feel like I have a good meter for that. I think a lot of people do. And I think obviously what you were saying about the data, the math, that's all like the building blocks of proof. But so much of it, you know, with this like 24 hour news cycle, I don't know if we're supposed to consume this much. um yeah politics it kind of fries your brain and i i i don't like agree with what i understand when people like just put their heads in the sand but it's like well whether you do that or not

someone's voting against you so i i think uh yeah it's just something to put importance on no matter what because it's it is such a powerful thing your vote and um you know i think just living is inherently political at this point. Like I can't, I can't just be a woman in America and like just go live my life and, you know, pump money into the economy with my voice and my, my songs and just that be it. Yeah. There's so much more to me and my wants and my, my morals and the things that I want to, especially like, not maybe especially because I don't want to like dismiss people that don't have children, but like, I do think that there's something that, like, kicks in for me, having only sort of been worried about myself for so long after like 30 years, now, you know,

living in this, this moment in time with a four-year-old with a little boy. And as a mother, a boy, there are things that, responsibilities on me that come with that. and just constant antenna up of like who is he interacting with like what are these ways that he's processing and downloading information like I don't know if he learns it from school or like randos but like he's you know they'll start like it's just a natural thing for kids to do like to gender everything and even that like that's a whole other conversation but well you know girls girls can like Spider-Man too Like, I don't know who's telling you they can't.

Yeah. Like, boys can like mermaids and girls can like Spirroman. That's the cool thing about living is you can kind of like everything or not like something. And so it's just on a fundamental level, it's so interesting sort of like reparenting this inner child with a child that's having to live in like 2024 with like access to the world and everything just feels like so heavy. It's like I'm truly trying to armor him and also. prepare him. Right. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. It may look different, but Native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a

television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something. we've been doing for hundreds of years, you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornales, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world. Influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I find it really interesting because it's funny, you know, just given the fact that last week was such a big event, that was the first question that came to mind for me. But normally I really like to ask people, because. I sit down with someone, you know, in an amazing moment in their career like you're having, you know, you had such an incredible, you know, rise in the music industry and you know I've been such a fan of yours for so long. And even to see how you've been navigating these recent years,

like everybody kind of meets you and knows you as this adult, this performer, this woman. And I'm always really curious for people if from where you sit in your life, you can kind of see the through line to who you were as a young person when you were like eight or nine years old. And it's interesting to think about asking you about your childhood and how it led you here as you're talking about your own child. I wonder if when you look back at your young self in a way, you also kind of horse you around and look at your son. Yeah, it's a really fun exercise to do that. And also it can be really triggering because you'll have a moment of, oh my god i sounded like my mother just now and like you know you'll have the rest of your life

as a parent but um yeah and there are just things that you know i i can as an adult now verbalize to him and articulate in a way that maybe my parents couldn't or their parents couldn't and we just and that's just you know the the nature of life and you know technology and knowledge is we know more now we have more resources is now at our fingertips than our parents and their parents did. So a lot of that is just that part of the tools there, but then also the sort of network of mothers and parents and therapists and child psychologists. And I'm just like all over those algorithms on TikTok. It's just inner child work and this and that.

there's there's a lot that I I just even gain from like a 60 second TikTok sometimes so totally yeah and like the sort of therapy part of society now where we can just truly destigmatize um needing help for your mind um I think the facet I went through was like postpartum depression so that was like a huge fork in the road for me of like having to maybe, you know, figure out some stuff that I hadn't, uh, before. And, uh, there was a lot more at stake because it's not just me. I have to worry about anymore. So yeah, um, yeah, I think just like, it's not fun work. Um, it's, it's really like looking under the hood and revealing things about yourself that, you know, you're, you're, maybe your mind was protecting you from for decade.

and then you like step on the landmine and it blows your ego you know yeah totally but it's good it's good it's all it's all like really intentionally done and you know I am a lot lighter and I had to change a lot of like very huge things in my life to get to this day yeah that's beautiful though you know I, it's really interesting because I think about it, especially when you've had these sort of big transformative journeys and you have to do it in public. So many people get to just figure out their lives and do it like just with their best friends. They don't have to do it with the whole world watching. And I think one of the things that's been the most helpful is a mantra that I've given myself in the last 18 months, two years, really, is it's okay that you didn't know.

There are bridges you can only cross when you come to them. You know, you can think about your life, you can plan your life, you can think that you know where things are going, and then you get to that fork in the road, and you realize, oh, I just wasn't prepared for this. I didn't know this would be what would be ahead of me with all my best intentions, with my planning and my coaching and my whatever, I didn't know this part. And I think that that is something that's so beautiful. And it's something I've really appreciated in particular about your new EP, about the way you've put intermission out in the world and the way you've been

willing to talk to your audience about it. Because you've really been upfront about the fact that in order to keep going, in order to keep living your life. You have to take it down to the studs and start over. And it's not easy to do that. A lot of people are afraid. A lot of people don't feel like they have the option or the power. And there's a lot of people who stay because they can't bear the optics of leaving or choosing themselves. And I don't know. I, as someone who's also recently been through it. I was just like, we're out here, girl. Like, we're out here doing this. Was it, was it like incredibly cathartic to write the new record? Was it necessary and hard? Was it kind of all of the above? I guess maybe it's multiple choice answer D, everything.

Yeah, I think, well, it depends on the song that you're referring to of these five. I think, you know, this is how a woman leaves, which is the last song on the EP, was probably, I think I was still in a state of like, like, I don't remember, I don't remember writing that. I think I was in such a deep state of like shock. And again, I think my mind was like protecting me from like the pain and trauma of that moment of my life. I remember like, I remember editing it. But the actual creation of the song, the day of, no, I mean, it's strange what your brain will do to, well, have full access to your verbal skills. But as far as memories, it didn't want to log that one. so um yeah i i think also it's i mean not to get into like crazy specifics because it's like you know i still have so much love for my ex and we are doing i think like a great job at co-parenting

and this is all just a new for us but um for me i i became i'm a different person now than i was five years ago. And I guess that's the part of like relationships and marriage that it's sort of like, well, duh, like you grow with the person. But I can't like fault someone for, I don't know, being shocked or disappointed that the person that they married is just like completely different now. I mean, I can't speak for everyone, but. For myself, like COVID, like really changed me.

I've been performing since I was 10. So unfortunately, a lot of my, and maybe you can relate to this just being sort of like a young actress and like being in this look eye. Like I wasn't in the public eye that much, but like I was performing and being, you know, viewed as a performer since I was like these really formative years of like building your, your you know your identity so my identity like unfortunately and i've learned this in therapy was

like extremely enmeshed with praise um just outside factors completely removed from your own compass and like self uh just needing to be in control needing to uh fall apart privately but on the stage outward facing is perfection um so a lot of complex built up at an early age. Something happened like in COVID where I had been in this role of like success, like all my hard work, all my parents support, like for me as an artist as a kid,

like finally culminated into this like successful few years of, you know, having crossover hits and like number ones and Grammy and this and that. Like that was great. But COVID like everything stopped for everyone. I was nine months pregnant. So just everything. in my body was different and I felt like I didn't feel or look like myself.

I'm just tried to give birth like the same week the world shutting down. They're like maybe threatening that I can't even have my spouse with me when I give birth. Like, I mean, luckily that was not the case. But wow. It was a complete mind for me. And then, you know, having like this thing, all my tours get canceled that year and just of course like postpartum happened, just circumstances.

but also the hormone part of it, it's like a really hard thing to self-diagnose. And so I was just so lost for so long. And I finally, like, you know, with the help of like my friends and family got on like antidepressants and, you know, was still doing like phone therapy through COVID. And then just trying to like become a parent, you know, and take care of a newborn. And there was just no room left for like me. and I couldn't really write via Zoom. It was just really hard for me to connect with friends

and try to write songs through that. Yeah, that energy that you get creating with people is not the same through a screen. Yeah, so that was just like completely DOA for me. And then just not being able to tour for the foreseeable future, like my, I just felt like extremely futile. And I, you know, there was a, There was an interview you were doing on this podcast.

I can't remember with who, but you were like, the burden is like sometimes, well, most of the time on the woman's work, you know, the self work you have to do. And this is my own, like, issue. But I went through like so many phases of trying to figure myself out through those, like, years. It was like, okay, I'm going to get an antidepressants. I'm going to continue therapy. I'm going to start playing tennis.

I'm going to do hot yoga. I'm going to do this guided shroom trip. I'm going to go to London for like six weeks once it's open to go do so. Just to like get out of the states for a second and figure out what the hell is going on in my head. There's just like so many layers happening of change. Yeah. And like desperation to figure out what the hell was going on with me. And meanwhile, like you're taking care of like a now-tubeau.

two-year-old. Wow. And you're having to like, like you are not, you're so back burnered on yourself like, or like just doing anything good for you because everything just like it's not worthwhile if it's not difficult, like work.

And young kids really put you in survival mode too. Yeah. And like when things start to deteriorate like in a marriage or even in like a career. For me, I was having to like really. address some biases going on in my genre of music like there were a lot of things happening all at once and it felt like I you have this guilt because you're like I I'm bringing this all on myself everyone else is trying to like tell me to chill out and um but it was like I had just

woken up and I couldn't go back to sleep yeah and now a word from our sponsors It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a hundred of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball.

Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage, Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And when your whole self is calling to you and you actually have to hear it, I do think there's a really profound thing. I mean, the way that like even just my chest feels when you're telling this story, my insides are like, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Because I think when you grow up, particularly in any arena that encourages you to be a performer, you are taught to, you are taught to. perform as a good girl and you're raised in a society that wants girls to be pretty and quiet and sweet and take care of everyone else all the time. And, you know, for me, I really had to start to examine the things that make me such a good coworker and such a good friend can be really detrimental to me in my one-of-one personal life because I put everybody else first. I check in with every department head in the morning when I get to set. I make sure everybody's doing.

well. They have what they need. I will get to the end of a 17-hour day at work and not have asked myself what I need. And when you learn to do that for your whole life and then the world shuts down and then whether you're going through a trauma, like having a new baby or trauma bonding, as I know, I think I did, you can build. I mean, at least for me, I'll personalize it. I don't want to generalize, but I realized I could build on the anxiety and on the on the small kernels of possibility. I could make those things into a whole meal. And I, I love to commit. I love to show up. It's like, well, if we're going to do this project, let's do it 100%. If we're going to take on this task, I want to learn the morals, the math, the, you know, national experience. I want to glean. I want to

glean the most information so I can do things to the best of my ability. And the aha moment for me was not having a baby. It was seven months of a fertility process where I went, oh, I've just never crossed this bridge before and this is not a bridge I agreed to cross alone. And this is not what I want the rest of my life to look like. And everyone will say, what are you doing? You've just made this decision. It's only been a year. You know, that's not a long time. But the way I think about life is, yeah, life might be short, but life is also way too fucking long to spend it miserable. And when your body is telling you, you've made your best efforts, you've literally tried everything, you've left no stone unturned, you've put it all on the table and you're just not in the right

place. Like, if you're not in the right room, you've got to leave. And I think it's a very, disorienting thing to realize as a performer that you can't perform your life in the quiet moments. And so when your brain, body, soul are calling to you to see that there is no more you can do, that it has to change. Like, that's a, that is a wild journey. And for you to do that, like I'm just thinking about how hard it was for me like regardless of what it might look like to the world it was so hard and so painful and so exhausting and I'm like I didn't I didn't have to do it while also trying to keep a tiny human alive so like hats off to you my friend that is that is a journey and you you left no stone unturned yeah well you can't like there there just is no blind spot anymore when you like take everything off your eyes and I I think, you know, the people that don't get it don't have to. Like, they're not looking at the iceberg under the surface of the water.

They're looking at what's up. And so I think, like, also, our intuition is, like, nine times out of ten, correct. And I think that there's, and it goes back to the performer thing, but the sort of gratitude and, like, empathy and all these things that you kind of are expected to have. there's also like the threat of loyalty I have that deeply because I think that it's a word and I do think there is such a concept of loyalty is like truly put in the work with each other but it has to be 50 50 and I'm not just talking about you know romantic relationships I'm talking about like employees I have sometimes even most

recently remained loyal to a fault to people that, like, work for me that don't have my best interest. Like, maybe they just, everyone has their own interests. That's the thing is, like, you could be the best boss in the world for you. And this person has a completely, like, different, like, set of standards for themselves and, like, priorities. So that learned with, like, my divorce and sort of, like, career separation has been that this is not, like, not everything is your issue to fix yeah it's not all your cross to bear yeah and that's really hard to unlearn um when you've been like in control well yeah a delusion of control or illusion and delusion of control yeah totally when someone like hurts you yeah so deep because you're not just thinking about

how they hurt you you're thinking about what did i do to hurt them i was that is such a like you know common thing women are dealing with on the daily so when you are selfish or self-protecting which i have had to become so in the last like year and a half like truly not cut off maybe it could be red as cold or aloof but i am i just don't give every everyone my everything now yeah and i do that from my close friends i do that from my son i do that for myself my family but like everyone else i i can't do that with everyone that with i work with work beside um i've just learned that it's i don't think i'm closing down i think i'm just like i'm protecting myself and and not like i guess like lowering my expectations of everyone

you know, around me. Like, I hold the people close to me to a high standard. But like everyone else, I'm like, you're going to get the like 70% version of me. Yeah. Because I have to protect my energy and my, my heart. And I am exhausted when I'm giving everyone my 100. Yeah, it's really, really hard. I mean, God, you know, in the best way.

But I felt that way when I got home, even from Chicago. It's like every person I saw, I was excited to see. everyone has a great mission. Everyone has incredible purpose. And I would like, I got back here and I just crashed for the weekend. And I was like, oh, I forget how much showing up with my full self. Yes, it's amazing, but it can be really draining. And to start to learn, like you said, when you've kind of pulled all the things out from over your eyes, you've taken off all the blinders, I think part of the natural response to that and self-growth is that you start to all also have to learn boundaries. And it was like, for me, I went, okay, I'm going to come home and be

with my partner and turn my phone off for the weekend. And that's going to really be important to me. Like, I need to sleep and go in. I need to hibernate like a bear for three days. And then I'll get back into it. And it's interesting because that, that like metamorphosis, that shift that I think so many people went through in various ways, especially during lockdown, when I think about how much you had going on all at the same time, you know, with a new baby, with figuring out that perhaps what you'd built your life into wasn't really for you. You know, also, as you mentioned, your intense feelings of where the morals were in response to things happening in 2020. Like, you know, I think about the fact that the song you performed at the DNC, you wrote, as you said,

in response to the killing of George Floyd. I think about how, you know, when I met you in early 2023, I was like, first of all, my friends and I are obsessed with your song and we send each other videos singing the middle, like literally every single time it comes on the radio. But aside from the joy, like, thank you for speaking up in your space, in country music, in defense of women like Mickey, you know, in support of black female country singers. Like, you know, you pushed back on more. and wallen for the horrifically racist ship that he said like i know that couldn't have been easy for you

in this world as you mentioned that you were raised in you know from texas to tennessee the conservativism what country music often gets you know sort of used for or like the things people sweep under the rug in that genre like you you were learning how to stand up for yourself it seems as an individual to listen yourself to set boundaries for yourself and you were like pushing back on a whole industry and saying this is fucked up we're not supposed to be doing this like aren't don't we know better by now and i guess my question listening to you talk about the the lessons and the kind of realizations and how all these things coalesced at the same time do you think some of the personal ahas came from your clarity on seeing the world around you or did did you see the world

around you more clearly because you were seeing yourself more clearly as you began to deconstruct like, I call it the mythology of the good girl, you know, or were they maybe just happening in tandem like a seesaw? That's such a great question. I think it was in tandem because, which is a lot. I wish one had, that's a lot. I wish one had come before the other because it would have been a period of maybe process, but I think it was just, you know, life, it's, it's just happening. it's dovetailing it's it's threading it's ribboning and you're just there as a passenger sometimes and I think yeah being able to articulate that is still tough for me because I just I feel like yeah not I hate really like using this word but it does that is how I feel it's just

like traumatized and I think you know that's that's part of it but I truly do things think like I had to scare the shit out of myself. I had to like what you mentioned earlier, take it down to the studs, um, reevaluate most of the relationships in my life. And what I'm left with, it's like, it's leaned out in the best way. And I think it's kind of amazing what you're, you're left with when you truly show people like who you are. And they show you who they are. And all you can do is just like without regret just be like okay I want everyone to be happy I want people first and foremost like I would like to be happy because if I'm not like how am I going to show up for everyone else in my life the way I'm supposed to and I I do think it just took a lot of like years and work

to realize that I don't have to be just in everything like I I can care and I can do my part on it and speak up, absolutely. Like, that's absolutely part of it. I knew showing up at the DNC was a statement and going to, like, lose followers, fans. I'm surprised they hadn't been lost before. I think most people have known where I've stood. But I knew who I was singing to that night. Yes, you were watching, but I was singing to my son.

That's it. And I can say, you know, without feeling guilt or, like, narcissism, that I am doing everything within my power to leave some version of this world better for him. I can't take everyone's responsibility on. I can only kind of focus on myself, the environments that he's in that I do, you know, pay attention to and have control over. I mean, but other than that, he's going to, he's going to live like a life where I'm just like the lighthouse and I'm not like going to be there all the time every single day moment with him. So even that is like losing control.

And that's a big thing with myself too. It's just that's, that was what was revealed, I guess, in my, my shroom trip was like, it was a nightmare. But it was like, yeah, you're not in control. We're going to strip everything. down ego death like you weren't in control never were never will be and um that's terrifying when you were like a child performer and that your sense of worth um for so long but as you mentioned before it's like you learn really quick in these like sort of trauma moments as an adult like

who you are and yeah it doesn't matter who you are to people like who you are to your yourself, how you show up as a good friend, as a boss, as a daughter, this and that, like every version of yourself. I do think I know who that person is. And I, of course, you know, never want to like rock the boat intentionally. But I just know, like, now with my family and, you know, friends that, you know, sort of fell by the wayside became like more superficial. They're not like the core people in my life anymore. Totally. I think they saw who I was and I've seen who they are.

And it's not a bad thing. I think it's just like we don't need to continue growing together in the same way. Yeah. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornelis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern

world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. it with, you know, co-workers, friends, even relationships. Like, I actually wrote an article about this a long time ago, how I think it's really important that we start allowing ourselves to look at reasons, seasons, and lifetimes. And sometimes you mistake a season for a lifetime. Sometimes you have to come to terms with the fact that you had a friend or a coworker for a season. And that's great. But, like, people evolve. They move past. they outgrow. Sometimes we mistakenly give, you know, more worth or weight to something than it was

meant to have. And I think, again, especially for the performing daughter, that can be really typical. But I do think there's, there is something really special about learning to love the world when you're learning to love yourself because you realize where the, if something is incongruous, you know it and you go, wait a second, if I can see that that's wrong for my community, how can I tolerate it for myself? And vice versa. Like, if I would never let someone speak about my friend like this in front of my face, how am I going to let someone in my community speak about someone who looks like my friend that way? You know, and I know that that comes with a lot, you know, certainly for me calling out, you know, what it was, domestic terrorism on

January 6th, the increase and influx of death threats was so scary for me. And I know you experienced that after you spoke out about, you know, what Morgan Wallen had said. And I think about, you know, how I react differently to that sort of experience in the world now that, you know, the world surrounding me includes young children. And I know you went through that as a young mom like how how do you process how do you process that how do you handle that saying we shouldn't be cruel to other people makes people be so cruel to you like did it make you want to leave Nashville did it change the way you know you and your family that are back home in Texas have conversations about these things or did you just have to figure out how to navigate around it

and keep it pushing. Yeah, I mean, I think I've thought about this for years because when you're so in the middle of this, like, I have the hurricane, it's, yeah, you're like, how are people this pissed? Like, over, like, the criticism of cruelty. And I think it's because they're not only, like, defending the person that said this,

but they are taking it personally as if, I'm criticizing them, which I think says, you know, a lot more about their interpretation of criticism and what that content was than me as a person calling out someone using the N-word. Right. Or even like transphobia that I've criticized in the past that sort of like exploded in another wave. I get that too. It's, yeah, it's never like I've, begun this. It's like as someone that's a peer and in the in the realm of this music industry, just being like, yeah, let's do better. That was a weird one. Um, apologize. Let's move on. Like, go back to the show. Um, but it was in such a moment of time of like change in America and like

having these hard conversations. So yeah, I mean, like the death threat portion, for me as a young mother was yeah obviously like scary and it wasn't death threats against me it was it was against my son too so it's like oh wow now we're involving the kids the ones that you cared so much about um so it's just yeah it's incredibly dangerous and scary and you know you just open up a whole can of worms of crazy people um and pundits that like you know make you uh you know like a kickbox the hell out of you. But I think that ultimately, yeah, it's like I, I look back on what has happened. And I'm like, I've done a lot of like work on myself and tons of, I mean, no one can guilt trip me or make me feel more like shit than myself. So I'm looking at all the I have that too. Yeah. Like do you, that's like being a woman is like no one knows how to criticize us more than each other or ourselves. So I think that when I really looked at everything the whole rap sheet of what had gone down the last few years and my vocalness i'm like

no i stand by what i said yep i don't regret it i don't apologize i feel the exact same way as i did that day um would i maybe use the channels of twitter uh again probably not um there's probably like more dignified ways to get my point across but hey it It is what it is. Yeah, don't be racist. Don't be transphobic. Don't be homophobic. Like all the things still stand by that.

Like so if you're expecting me to feel bad, no, I actually, the only thing that made me feel bad was like realizing even in this like community of music here in Nashville. And I still live here is like, oh, wow, who will go to bat for you or people of color and who will go to bat for them? And I mean, a lot of people just, unfortunately, as you learn, like, in these industries or just life itself, it's like fear and sort of group mentality and peer pressure and money. You kind of learn really quick, like, who people side with it. But I have made some just incredible friendships and relationships. musical or not through the last few years because it's it's terrifying but it's also amazing when

people know where you stand because you make relationships and friendships happen that maybe like I don't know people judged a book by their cover before and now the world sees you as you are or as you've shown them and beautiful things come from it like I I've had so many incredible opportunities and friendships through the last few years of showing my full self. You know, the DNC being the most recent of them. You know, getting an award from Glad and like just just truly like connect with people and have them say like,

thank you for saying anything at all. Yeah. Because maybe they grew up in the South and like grew up in an environment or went to a school where they were bullied and were made fun of for that thing. And I think that's, it's obviously like still so tragic and heartbreaking. But when you find this community of people that have been marginalized and, you know, as a musician and as a songwriter, being like a conduit of people's emotions through my own. Yeah.

Get out into the world. Oh, if there's one thing I wish I could do. it would be to write music like I it's so cool and you know to your point like what you have been able to represent for people and I'm sure hear from people like I'm one of those people your you know intermission is so special as an EP certainly but like for me I was like oh this is the album I needed like if I knew how to do what you do this is what I would have wanted to write about the last two years. And like, I don't know. I'm so curious about it, especially, you know, because same same, like the sort of public experience of coming

out in one way or another, even for me where I was like, have y'all just like not been paying attention to my career or like any of my choices for the last 20 years? Well, I don't know. But it's like one of the things I thought so much about was to your point. Like there are kids who get bullied over their identities. There are kids who kill themselves when they get outed. And like, you know, as someone who was, you know, essentially being outed myself, I was like, well, I guess I didn't think I'd have to have this conversation. It would just be what it is.

And then in a way it was like, well, I want to have the conversation. And like, if you want to shame me, watch how proud I'm going to go. go out and be in the world. Yeah. You can't weaponize it. No, I was like, watch me celebrate. Watch me. It's going to be delicious.

And like when you, when you wrote Push Me Over with Muna, some of my favorite people also in music, it was fun to read about how you wrote it with that band after you'd gone on a date with a woman. But you talked about going through like by panic. And it just made me like giggle. I was like, oh my God, I want to talk to you about all of this. Like, what, where do you think that came from? And like, how did you decide to turn it into part of the journey of the album? Like, you made art out of this feeling of what I assume was

sort of excitement and overwhelm all at the same time. Like, was that the first aha moment for you that you also liked women? Or do you think you had like maybe tamped that down a little bit growing up in a conservative community? I just want to know all the things. I have so many questions. Yeah, I think it was something I always knew about myself because the day I was writing this song with Muna, having just come from this date the night before with this beautiful woman in L.A. Like everyone in L.A. is also like beautiful. So like dating again. It's just like crazy. But yeah, they were asking like, when did you know? And I was like, well, I think I've always known because you know every every girl's different but like in like you're high in high school i just

remember being at like sleepovers where it'd be like a ton of us girls some of us are super close some of us are like just meeting each other for this for a time or maybe like summer camp like we're just like gayer um yeah you're just like okay you're cute and then you like have this bond and there's something so tough to identify because women are just innately, well, we're wonderful. And like, we're lovely. Well, and we just don't like small talk from like age of eight to now, it's really hard sometimes for me to delineate my sexual attraction or just my like love of women. Because if I say like with you, there's no small talk.

There's no bullshit. We immediately dive into something like really meaningful and deep because we don't have to do this like um gay chicken for hours that boys probably have to do like you know they can't like a straight man like cis men can't not just admit to each other like yeah this guy is hot like they can't do it so an hour is like on a golf course and you'll you'll be like oh my god if i'd spent one hour with a woman on a golf course we would be talking about our mothers we'd be talking about some crazy trauma from like third grade i mean we would just be getting into it and so I don't know about you, but I've talked to like other women about this and especially like bisexual women of like just knowing am I connecting with this person because it's just so easy and fun to connect with women in general or is it because I have a little crush.

So that's sort of how pushed me over began was that sort of conversation. And then obviously like just feeling so safe in this room with Muna like and Tobias just so just being able to. like write a song about sex longing, but in a fun way and it not being serious or deep. That's what, that was the breath of fresh air I needed in my life in this new chapter of dating. Totally. And truly like dating for the first time because I've never really had that phase of my life. I've been like two really long relationships. Yeah. And to be able to harness your giddiness and let it be fun again like how lovely how lovely to be an adult and to be like oh my god i'm giddy yeah and also displaying this multifacetedness of you know just being a person in general

like being a mother being in my early 30s being recently divorced but still like having these discoveries and i hope to like continue having them till i die i think that sort of being on display is so fun and refreshing because it's like not that I'm saying I'm like 80 years old like it's never too late but I do feel like that with this EP it's like hey here's everything going on right now and there's more to come obviously but it's like the fun is never over it's just beginning and that's yeah it's fucking terrifying what we had said like an hour ago about you know this this fear of leaving or this fear of starting over and And there are so many valid fears to that, whether it's financial fears of separation or divorce or breaking up a job that doesn't vibe with you anymore.

I mean, there's so many valid reasons you could all day say to yourself to stay because it's terrifying. like it's it's nauseating to hit hit the reset button um and it's not even like a clean reset it's like a complete implosion most of it and it's messy and there's shrapnel emotionally everywhere on everyone and you're going to carry guilt about that i don't know if it actually goes away i'm new at this so i'll find out but i think the the risk that you have to take to be happy after trying everything. Yes. Like you deserve that.

And don't let anyone make you think that you did it on a whim or selfish or you're jeopardizing everyone else's like life and future because of your own like blah, blah, blah. I mean, I don't know one woman that did anything on a whim. No. We will go through every and exhaust every avenue to make sure something is truly not working. Yeah. And now a word from our sponsors that I really enjoy, and I think you will too. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does.

feels oddly, like very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of two years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Taylor Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

The thing that was really interesting for me to hear and like hearing you talk about it and even having so many friends who all went through it last summer and like, friends going through it now, the overwhelming theme for everyone has been, I should have trusted my guts sooner. It's never, oh, I did this too fast. It's, wow, I really dragged this out. I really, like, I just, I tried and tried and tried and tried until it almost killed me. And that, that's something, you know, like when we talk about what we hope to build, right, for the future, for the kids, for their kids, like, I do hope as we start to embrace more of our full selves, we can start to build worlds where women don't, like, beat themselves

half to death to stay. Like, I really hope we can start to give ourselves more space to not be, as you were saying earlier, loyal to a fault or loyal to the point of self-erasure, you know? Do you feel like, because before we move on from that topic, I'm so curious to ask, like, was part of the reason that you wanted to come out? publicly because you knew you were like going to publicly be going on dates with women with men and you you wanted to be able to like own it for yourself or were you just like it's pride and I feel ready I mean a little bit of both and I think um you know knowing that this song was going to be coming out too I thought yeah well I can either just I can either just drop this song into the world

and have people wonder and I hate the like confusion um and I felt like like I wanted to celebrate it. I didn't want. And I also for myself, just wanted to have everything out there. Like, yep, I think those are things that should be forward facing for me,

not do you, but for me, I was like my life is so open now. I'm not hiding any like any portion of myself. So it was out of like truly, like celebratory nature it's pride month yes like i also loved not doing a stupid press release or whatever i was like oh god i know i was like gag um let's just do i was like i'm just gonna put it in like an instagram caption like on a tour photo so like it could literally just look like oh here's where we

played last night oh by the one like yeah i'm this letter uh but no yeah i liked keeping it like lighthearted because it's like it's it's not a thing that is to for me um a thing that needs like an entire spiel or article on like I was like but you're right like being in this sort of role of like never having dated I'm probably going to be dating you know out in public and I would like to be able to do that without any sort of like malicious intent from you know press or bloggers or whatever so and they are wild yeah and i i truly doubt they even care but i was just like you know just so i know that they do i'll i'll confirm for you they do i was like people know my views on the topic and my words here it is so nothing gets twisted so um so glad

it feels really good when you get to have agency over your own story and i i'm always happy when people get to have that because, you know, as a person who's experienced having it taken from me and then having to reclaim it, like, I don't know, I just love it. I'm, I'm proud. It's like, it's nice to watch for people who, you know, you're a fan of or who you care about. And I don't know, it seems at least observing that it feels like a great moment and like the album has been so well received and the story that it tells resonates with so many of us. Like having had it out now for almost a month, how does it feel for you? Is that the reaction, this kind of overwhelming positivity and the me, the me too? Like, I've been through that too. Is that what you're seeing the

most of? Like, does it feel really vulnerable? Does it feel really freeing? Yeah, I mean, it feels really vulnerable on a few of the songs being out in the public, but like kind of what I had predicted when I was recording them and really trying to figure out what to put on this. I was like, I can already envision myself singing these songs live and like crying, laughing, connecting with people. Yeah. And by the thousands. And so I think, you know, for me, I do this now, like years in, like for my own therapy

to get this out of my body. because like as a heavy impact, like when I don't exert that energy or if I, if I stifle it, um, if I stay in a situation too long, like my body is attacking itself. Like a lot of like stresses the last few years and like my hair will literally start to fall out. And like that's how much you, you hold in. And so I've just like learned, uh, to like truly express it in a way that I know is going to bring me people. and like it's never to hurt someone else. I'm not writing these songs for any other intention than to just heal myself.

And the byproduct of that, which is amazing, but it's not my reason for doing this anymore, is that people can hear themselves in the story as well. And I think that that's a beautiful thing. I have no control over that, like whether you can. with it or not, that's not my job. My job is just to get it out. And I think that that's a nice sort of like responsibility taken off my shoulders is that like, yes, speak up, use your voice, write your songs, perform, show up when you can. But ultimately, like just, again, life's too short to worry about every single brain in the world's perception of you.

like you've got to just figure out how to be happy and that will emanate to well my son to others to the people that work for me to fans like that's an output ripple and that's amazing but there's there's a there's a selfishness that is absolutely warranted and healthy and and and ripples outward in a mattered way and i think something that we don't get told enough is that when you take care of yourself, people get taken care of by proxy. Well, and it's, it's that metaphor, right, of learning to put your own oxygen mask on first. And I think it's really related to that phrase, like, people, you teach people how to love you. And when you tolerate bad behavior to be nice, when you make room for, you know, less than you

deserve like you can just shrink yourself down so much that then you wonder why everything feels so small and painful. And I think when you get free, you inspire other people to get free. And yeah, it's a beautiful ripple effect. It almost feels like you just answered my next question. My favorite thing to ask everyone at the end is what feels like your work in progress right now? And I wonder, is it that? Is it that like choosing of self or is it a bigger thing? although that's pretty big that that seems to be that the one like the main course for me right now is like boundaries uh which are so hard to put in place with people that like benefited from you not having them yeah so from you know work to family to uh employee just everything like um

I think like boundaries, but still keeping my, my heart open and having like a curiosity and pureness about the state of the world and like doing whatever I have to do on my end to retain that curiosity and beauty, I think that it's not that hard to find when you like get all the distractions away and keep those boundaries set. so I know that's like very you know therapy girl speak but I think right now that has been because once you start doing it you can't stop yeah it's so freeing because you're like oh my God I'm finally talking to people now in a way that I should have done 10 years ago and now I can breathe now I'm like sleeping nine 10 hours a night like I'm not waking up at 4 a.m.

with like anxiety pit in my stomach like yeah it just it's finally like paying off those like yeah full initial um starts so um and i just i get to like receive love more now like i've always received my son's love but like and now he's four so he can like talk and have conversations with me so we just have this connection that you know we've always had but now it's more verbal just like truly being bowled over by the innocence of children and like having I just wrote this children's book with my best friend Karina and like I think like even through that a portal that's not music but still being creative and inner child work has been a really like huge dose of joy in my life and um love that yeah and then just receiving

like when people are truly like connecting with you like even dating it's like yeah a lot of it is a nightmare and um very like bid but i think when you like find a little spark it's like oh i forgot i could feel like this this is no i can still have this happen to me even with all the protection and work i've done with myself i can still like feel something with someone like someone who was a complete stranger a few days ago like it you know something magical about that there is i think i don't know it feels like a theme to me is that you can always be surprised and like you said not to be cliche but it is never too late and and so i think to i think to be willing to lean into your courage over and over again throughout your life is a is a pretty beautiful thing

well it's been such an amazing uh thing to watch it's just like you navigate your life and career and personal life just with the public eye and the scrutiny that comes with that um but also just like the power that you have and how you use it for deep connection with people and and for good um yeah i mean and then just seeing you like in your energy last week i was like girl take your three days of like opening the curtains because you exerted so much love and energy last week and like resource providing people with the actual data like that's that is not just like you hitting a button that is like you using a lot of your heart and brain and everything to just show up in a way that you can and so um yeah i'm you're a badass you well as are you my dear and

thank you so much that really that means like a lot. It feels nice. It does take a lot of work, but it's like being able to use a platform in that way. It feels like such a calling for me. And I know in so many ways does for you, too. And yeah, it's why I'm always excited when I see you in a room. I'm like, yay! Because I know we're not going to small talk and it's always great. Yeah, I know. We cannot small talk. I love that about us. No, ma'am. Well, thank you for coming today. Thank you for, you know, sharing your heart and your art and um yeah i'm i'm always rooting for you thank you well same love it was so nice being on here and um yeah i hope we see each other i know i'm like we need to do this without the mics and

like a bottle of wine ace out okay good next time i'm in town we should i would love it all right okay honey have a great rest of your day thank you you too thanks everyone It may look different, but native culture is alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. Somewhere along the way, it turned into this full-fledged award-winning comic shop. That's Dr. Lee Francis IV, who opened the first Native comic bookshop. Explore his story along with many other native stories on the show, Burn Sage Burn Bridges. Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is an IHeart podcast.