Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Michael Urie

Episode Date: June 19, 2025

True talent speaks for itself, and Micael Urie has it in droves! From playing fan favorite catty assistant Marc St. James on "Ugly Betty" to playing a hilarious narcissistic attorney in Apple TV+'s "Shrinking" to entertaining fans with his podcast and putting queer stories front and center with Pride Plays!  Actor, producer, writer, and director Michael Urie joins Sophia to chat about his acting journey, including a fascinating chat about the interesting relationship actors have with the camera, what he has learned from Harrison Ford on the set of "Shrinking," what it was like hosting the GLAAD awards, and working (playing) with his "Ugly Betty" co-star and real-life friend Becki Newton on the rewatch podcast "Still Ugly!"Plus, he shares the backstory on co-founding Pride Plays and putting queer stories center stage, what his younger self would think of his career, and what he believes is the greatest show ever!See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Hi, Whips, Marties. Today we are joined by one of my favorite co-stars ever. Actor, producer, director, and host Michael Yuri, who you know from bringing stories to life on screen, on stage, and behind the scenes. He was everybody's favorite, Mark St. James, on ABC's Ugly Betty.

He's been on Modern Family, The Good Wife, The Good Fight, Younger, Workaholics, partners with me, and basically every incredible play on Broadway, I don't know, ever. Michael's currently starring in Apple TV's hit series Shrinking, for which he won a Critics' Choice Award. He is absolutely one of the funniest people any of us knows, and he's bringing some of that old school humor back not only to the screen but to the airwaves with his ugly buddy co-star Becky Newton and their rewatch podcast still ugly. And one of my very favorite things that Michael does in all of his spare time, JK, he has none,

is he is the co-founder of New York City's Pride Plays, which celebrate and elevate LGBTQ voices in the theater. This year, he's taking the Pride plays to Washington, D.C. for World Pride. And I can't wait to talk to him today about life, love, motivation, lessons on screen and off, and how he manages to keep this incredibly impressive resume going. Let's dive in with Michael Uri. I was trying to remember. Remember, is that right? We were the first gay kiss on CBS. And it was a peck. Just a peck.

It was a little smoochy. You guys were very cute. So cute. But what I was remembering is Do you ever tell people you made out with Superman? We didn't really make out. But yes, I do. Okay. The answer is one, yes. Two, we didn't really make out. It was always just a peck. And it was never very romantic or sexy. But what I was thinking about as I walked over today was you and he had a sexy kiss. That's right. That like the, um, David's nightmare. Yeah, it was like, or was it your nightmare? Was it a nightmare? Like a, oh yeah.

It was like a test. It was like, let's see if I feel anything. Oh, yeah. I don't feel anything. Let me just try one more time and they kiss again. It was one of those. Was it? Yeah.

I thought it was like a hallucination. Maybe that was it now that you're saying that. Anyway, anyway, I remember. We need to rewatch our show also. That's our next podcast. Okay, great. But that's what I like, I remember. Oh, yeah.

They let the, they let the, like, the beautiful straight characters. Well, they let the straight woman kiss a gay man. Right. The hot gay man. But not the gay man's partner. We had to just pack. You guys had this, like, sexy, romantic, steamy kiss. Woo!

Yeah. With the, I remember, because I got a Beyonce fan. Oh, yes. And my hair was supposed to be fabulous, but, like, more than once it blew into my mouth. And I was like, I'm just not hurt. I don't have the, like, hook out. Yeah. I'm more like, you know, I'm a little more of a Hobbit than a pop star, but here we are.

Hobbit. Hobbit around a little bit, you know. Hoppy? Happy, hoppet. We had good times, though. Happy Easter, we had the best time. I was shooting on Warner Brothers and I still think about us all the time because stage 19, I think, is where we were. And it's right by the gym and I go there all the time and I always think about us.

To shoot a show on that lot. Warner Brothers Law, Universal Law. I'm still trying to manifest it again. The best. Every time I come out of a stage at Warner Brothers and you see those. Have you watched the studio? The new Apple show. Not yet.

It's on my list. Is it good? It's really cool. It's like the craft is incredible. Meaning how they shoot it? Yes. Okay. It's gorgeous.

And like most, it feels like it's one shot. Really? Yeah. And it's so like fast-paced and there's dozens of extras everywhere. And it's all on Warner Brothers. so that you see the lot all the time. Oh, interesting. It's very cool.

Do you love, is there really, I feel like there is as a viewer for me, a difference in the sort of level of creativity on an Apple show. Oh. And so doing shrinking, do you, do you just sort of, is it palpable for you? I mean, Bill Lawrence, yes. The answer is yes. Like Bill Lawrence, my boss is so cool. And he runs such a, it's like an asshole free zone.

There's nobody with a chip anywhere. And he's a generous, fun, kind man. He comes on set and, you know, he comes on set and it doesn't make everyone nervous. It makes everyone's shoulders drop when he comes on set. Because we know like, oh, he's going to, you know, whatever. Even if it's great, he's going to make it better. Even if what we're doing is already great, he's going to make it better. And he's so busy.

There's so many things going on. He's like doing 10 shows at once. He's so smart. And he's so smart. and he surrounds himself with the best people. They're people that have been with him for decades. I love that. You always know when you meet somebody or work with somebody

and they've got the same people around them and have for a long time, that that's, I think, a really good sign. I've had this experience this year, because listen, I love what we do and sometimes set is not a nice place to be, and we've all had the best and the worst of it. And the revelation for me this year

of working on a Shonda Rhyme set has been wild because it's this everyone is happy to be there nobody has a chip nobody's checking the clock nobody's trying to get home early but they do want to make sure people get home

like in time to see their kids right you know the whole dynamic and then you go oh I get why you guys have been doing this for 21 years like the entire time I've been an actor they've been making this one show

of hers and that's crazy it's crazy it's crazy that's just been on for 21 years yeah wow i know and it's a lovely it's a lovely place to go to work and i think a lot of people have been there the whole time yes yeah i mean crew members you know started working when they were young and now their kids are in college oh my gosh it's crazy homes bought mortgages paid it's so that's really that's amazing it's really it's cool when the right person becomes a boss yes It's a really, like, wonderful, magical, special thing. And I like knowing that you have that. Oh, yeah, I've got a great boss.

And everybody, it's a great, it's a great crew. It's a great cast is amazing. The writing is amazing. Writing is amazing. I just have the most fun watching you. Obviously, you know, all I want to do is talk about feelings all the time. I sort of turn into the therapist at the corner of every party. So now that there's a show that's on about a therapist and his world, I'm just like, I've been waiting for this.

It's also, like, I feel like the show, and this is, you know, I mean, having done a bunch of gay stuff. No, why? You don't say. In TV, theater, you know, for like, you know, quite a while now. I will get recognized by queer people or the ladies who love them. And now lately it's been a lot of straight boys, straight men, because this show lets them talk about their feelings. And it's like, you know, it's pretty moving just last night. Somebody came up to me who I know, who I didn't see it in a long time.

And he said, I just have to tell you that my, we have a family member. And this show has, we haven't, you know, like there's been some tension. And this show has brought us back together. Whoa. I know. I know. And it's like this, like there's something about these straight, you know, it's a Harrison Ford thing. It's a Jason Segal thing, a Bill Lawrence thing.

Like, these guys have tapped into like a masculine sensitivity. And it's cool. It strikes me the cool thing when we're in the obvious nightmare, you know, for women, weird people, most of us in the world of the manosphere that is so violent and toxic and scary. They've done this really cool thing with these men because they're dudes. Yeah. Like Harrison Ford's the, he's the dude. The dutious dude of all dudes. And they're just, they're not so evolved that they're like insufferable.

They're not, whatever anyone thinks, like an evolved man is, they're just healthy men or men working on being healthy. Yeah. Figuring out how to be healthy. It's like, it's nice to see masculinity that isn't trying to punch you in the face. Yes. But that's still allowed to be funny and flawed and heroic. and he's allowed to be a good dad and all these things. And you're like, that's what I mean.

That's like, it's nice. That's what's possible. Yeah. That's what's possible. And for it to be from a guy who is a puncher and a guy who does, has done gross R-rated comedies. You know, like that these guys can now come around and evolve into. And Bill's been on this trajectory all along, you know, you know, from the days of Spin City and Scrubs. He was on his way towards something.

that was like a more evolved broie comedy i think so yeah have you guys talked about that no no but it's an interesting yeah yeah because he's like yeah i mean i think he's been i don't know laying the seeds of of better men you know men being better yeah exactly okay so this is really interesting because we started the podcast yeah i mean i think we're just in it we dove in normally i i like to ask the question I'm about to ask you, but I do think we've hit a full circle moment because you're kind of talking about how people evolve, especially as storytellers. And I'm always really curious when I sit down with people, not just people who I've been lucky enough to know for a long time, but people who do what we all do, like you're saying,

out in the street, people meet you where you are in your career. They know about you. They've now, at this point, probably seen you in a couple of shows, a bunch of plays. Who knows? if you got to look back at your own life the way we're talking about even you know bill as a storyteller and you got to like go for a little hang with yourself at 12 or 10 like in in that little boy would you see the adult you are today would you see a storyteller would you would you see the through line or would that kid be so wowed to meet michael you're a adult That's, wow, what an interesting question. I like to think that 10-year-old, 12-year-old me, if he watched TV, he would get a kick out of adult me, I think maybe.

And I mean, certainly imagine, like, what would he have done if he had seen Ugly Betty or, you know, like gone to the theater and seen spam a lot or, you know, something that I've been in that a kid would like. And I think about that a lot. And I also, I just was, they needed pictures. of me as a kid for a scene on shrinking. And I was just going through small pictures. And there's a picture of me with my friends from Boy Scouts. Aw. Did you have your little angry deep one?

It was actually club scouts because I didn't make it to Boy Scouts because I couldn't handle the campouts. Not for me. Thank you. Nope. Thank you. I'll be back at my house. But it was a picture of me and like four of us all like like, hey, get, come in.

Let's get a picture. arms around each other and they're all like smiling and I'm making the goofiest face you've ever seen like maw and uh probably 11 12 in that picture and I was like oh yeah I was a I was a clown then I were a little ham yeah it was a little ham and and so there is part of me that wants to go back and of course we're you know rewatching ugly Betty which is later but still very, a very young me. Yeah. And whenever I think I haven't figured anything out yet, you know, now as a 44-year-old,

I think I don't know anything, I haven't figured anything out yet. And then I look back and see that goofy kid making everyone laugh in the Cub Scout picture or, you know, Ugly Betty. I think, oh, I might be able to learn a thing or two from him. Yeah. And there was something about that confidence that I had then that has, I still have confidence. and I still know what I'm capable of but there's definitely like I miss him

I miss that kid that didn't that had never been told no you know that whole thing I remember I remember sort of realizing looking back at the first year we were on the set doing one tree hill I'd just turned 21

I remember saying and I heard it when it came out of my mouth reflecting on her going well I was just young enough not to know better meaning like I didn't know I couldn't go what the you know to my boss who was being inappropriate with a bunch of women at the time I didn't and people were like what are you doing and I just I didn't know there were structures in place and I love that I didn't

I love the the unaware confidence the ability to just lean into like what you feel what you know to be right yeah and I do think how lucky we are to be 40 some things and to be evolved enough to have, you know, lived and grown and you can hold so many things to be true. And it's so great. And sometimes I just want the absolutely unconscious confidence of a 21 year old or a 12 year old. I know. I always feel like in my 20s I thought I knew everything. And then in my 30s, I realized I didn't. And it freaked me out. And now I know things. Like now I'm like, oh, I do know things. Yeah. There's a lot I know. And there's stuff I don't

I don't know. And I'm okay with that. I'm pretty okay. Yeah. I'm maybe not okay with that. But no, I'm okay with that. It's like one of those boards you see people on on Instagram where they're wiggling like a personal seesaw. It's that. Yes. Exactly. Exactly. But all my friends who are 30 think they're the oldest people in the world. That's the, that's the really fascinating. And I did too when I turned 30. That's the hardest. I felt older at 30 than I felt at 40. Oh, a thousand percent. I feel very young now. Oh, yeah. Which is weird. Yeah. Kind of nice. You look exactly the same, by the way. Listener. I appreciate that. In case you haven't seen a picture of Sophia Bush lately. She looks exactly the same. Someone recently was like, really, what's the thing? And I said,

I wish I could take credit for my lack of sun damage. I was just locked in soundstage for the entire decade of my 20s. So when everyone else got sunburned, I was a vampire, which has worked great for me in my 40s. But at the time, I was like, I want to go on a vacation to Mexico. And I just never did. No. You're busy taking that flight back and forth. Four flights a weekend. The four flights a weekend. Gosh. It's interesting to talk about our first jobs.

Yeah. Because we're doing the same thing right now. Right. And we're watching our first shows. It's wild, right? I have so many questions. Well, okay. They're all running through my head at rapid fire and I'm like, which one do I pick?

What is it like, because you've talked about this a little bit, but I haven't spoken to you about this. How you see now how ahead of its time the show. What do you see? What do you pick up on? How does it feel to watch it, you know, for the two of you? yeah it's wild what are you realizing about this thing that you that you made first of all so relieved and proud to know

that something we made you know shut the pilot 19 years ago something that we did all the way back then was on the right side of history for the most part I mean there's a few things that are you know like that are

it's one of those shows that like we went there with race stuff we went there with queer stuff and when something was you know, when something was racism or transphobic or homophobic, that was on the bad. That was bad in the show. So even though we would occasionally go there, it was bad. Like if I was racist on the show, if my character was racist, he got his comeuppance by the end.

And he was like that. So we were never doing it just for the sake of doing it. Whereas if you watch some shows, like, especially like the 90s, everything is gay panic. Horrible. Everything. It's horrible. It's crazy. I'm like, are we okay?

Were people okay? No. What are you so scared of? What are you so scared of? And why is this so funny? And also the funny racism. Like there was that period where we were like, it was all just funny to be racist. And it's like, no, I don't mean it.

I'm being, you know, I'm just. It's a joke. I'm being affable. You know, it's like, no, that's actually not funny. That's not funny. And we all thought it was okay to laugh at those things, I guess. So it's a relief to rewatch Ugly Betty. And when those things do come up, they're not, they're bad.

They're like, that's not a good thing. They're observed as a bad thing. Yes. We'll be back in just a minute. But here's a word from our sponsors. What's interesting to me about that, though, is I think you have to take, it's almost like a math equation to me. You have to sort of analyze what was transformational at the time and how it had to be done.

Yes. And the fact that there was a trans character on Ugly Buddy was a very big deal. It was huge. Exactly. And the fact, by the way, that one of the most famous supermodels in the world played that trans character, actually, I think at the time, given where society was, probably did more in that year for transvisibility than would have been done otherwise because, let's be frank, a studio wouldn't have given a role to an actual. trans woman on a show at the time. No. And so I deal with this stuff too, what rewatching my own show where I'm like,

God, I hate that we did it that way. But I'm glad that we opened the door so that other people could come in the door. I've talked to Kevin McHale about this a lot with his character on flee. Sure. You know, and now he's like, I wish someone who actually was in a wheelchair

had played my character. Totally. However, his character changed. changed the representation for disabled characters on television. And it showed young disabled people who wanted to be actors that there was a place for them that, like, I could do something. Yes, that you could even go out for a TV show in the first place. And maybe be on a hit show as a series regular on Fox.

Yeah. You know, that totally. Exactly. On Fox of all networks, by the way. Exactly. So major. I know. So it's interesting to kind of have to look at the thing for what was good and what was bad

and then divide it by the year it was on the TV. Yes, yeah, it's like a funny little equation. Some smart math person should make the actual equation for that for us. It's not me, but I see it in my head. And when we would go into issues with, when we would have storylines about Alexis Mead on Ugly Betty, her father was not accepting and he was a bad man and he ended up dying. You know, like that was like, that's, that's what that's, yes. And played by a wonderful actor named Alan Dale who was not a.

a bad man, but the character was a bad man. And then her mother, Judith Light, complicated woman character that played Alexis, Claire Mead, she was a complicated character, but she loved her daughter. And she was good, and she lived. You know, it's like that, like, and it was Judith Light. And it was Judith Light. So here we have gay icon, you know, who stood with AIDS patients before anyone else, and they bring her in to support her trans daughter. And that's like, so, you, you know, it was way ahead of its time. And it's so nice to watch it and not be cringy and a relief. Yeah.

We were on the CW. We have some cringe. There's some things that I go, oh, okay. All right. But then I, you know, I also have the experience where sometimes I see us do something or have a conversation or do a storyline. And I'm like, damn, I actually get why this was such a big deal. And it's cool to get to become your own fan.

Man. I didn't have that when you were making the show. Did you? Well, no, I was too busy learning. Because I'd never done anything. And so I would watch, this has come up a lot on our show too. It's like I remember a lot of my stuff, but I don't remember a lot of other people's stuff. And so now I'm becoming a fan of like the other actors on the show. Wait a second. You're good at your job. I slept on you. But like I was so focused on getting my own stuff, right? And then rewatching my scenes to learn because I didn't. didn't know anything about being on camera. And so I would watch and learn and be like, oh, I don't like that angle of me or I need to pay more attention when the camera is there. I used to do this thing. This is so silly.

You know how in it. So like, you know how, well, like like this. There's these two cameras on this when they'll do coverage. So there's a camera, say, over your scene partner's left shoulder. And then another scene or another, another setup that put the camera between us on the other side. And I, for the first few seasons, or maybe the first season of everybody, I would cheat towards wherever the camera was, like I was on stage. You know, like on stage, you cheat to the audience. And so I saw, I would see myself on TV and I'd be like, none of this matches.

Yeah. You're like, why am I jumping around? It's so embarrassing. I would like, yes. I was like, why am I? Like, my face is towards the camera no matter where it is. And now I know, like, you can't, you just can't do that. You have to be real.

Right. Because the camera's going to get you. The camera knows. The camera's doing its job. You don't know how to do it for it. It's really, I know. It's an interesting relationship with the camera. I'd be interested to hear what you think because, like, you know, sometimes you think I want to forget the cameras there.

I want to ignore the camera. And then sometimes you're like, oh, no, the camera. Harrison Ford, who's on shrinking, his relationship to the camera is more important than anything. He's always talking to the camera. He talks to the camera crew more than any of us. And he's so hyper. He knows that camera as good as anyone on the set. Oh, I love that.

And it's really, I learned so much watching the way that he deals with the camera. Oh, I love that. Because, like, on the one hand, you do. You want to pretend like it's not there, but you can't. It's there. It's important. You have to love the camera. What I've really learned, and I hope to someday be as good at it as he,

is. I'm not a person who necessarily understands what lens we're throwing up. I know if we're going wide or long, but that's kind of it. What I have come to discover, and I do spend a lot of, I spend a lot of time with my camera crews and I spend a lot of time with my props department. My favorite thing to figure out with my camera operators is the dance. And what I've learned is that if we choreograph really well together, it's not that I forget the camera's there, it's that the camera becomes my partner and the dance becomes something I don't even, it's muscle memory. And so what I'm thinking about, particularly, I have this movie that I shot last year, which was an adaptation of a book, so you know I was like really geeked about that.

Yeah, right. And we filmed in this really sort of, um, The house itself felt like a set. It was very austere and sterile and modern. But a location. It was like a real location. Yeah, it was a location. We were out in Utah.

It really lent a certain quality to the movie. And the director, who we were working with is a big Moldovar fan. And we watched all these sequences of things that he loved for the visuals. And there's a scene where you get to know the house following. my character into it as she comes home and she's doing these things. And so all the stuff, you know, where you put your bag and where you toss your keys and what you're doing. And I want to come in with flowers because I do this every Tuesday and I go to get a vase. And we did all of these things. And the camera, it was this one shot that had to move all through, you know, driveway up the

thing in the front door, into the living room, which has art sculptures in it. And then around the dining table into the kitchen and all this stuff. And we, we, you know, we, you know, we, had just gotten everyone's photos and all the child's photos and family photos, you know, set. And I remember at one point when we were figuring out what I was going to be doing where the things were going to be going to be going saying to the director and the camera operator who's on the steady, which for our friends at home, it's like this giant, it almost looks like a Kevlar vest. Yeah. Yeah. And it has this arm on it and the camera floats around in the hands of the operator. And I looked up and I said, oh, if I'm doing this thing and then doing this thing and

Do you want me to throw a glance to one of the photos so you can go off me and track across these? And then I can reach into frame to grab the vase and we can come back and go into the kitchen. And my camera operator and my director look at each other and they go, don't you love a technical actor? And I was like, we're dancing, we're dancing. And it was this great way for us to do a thing. And that's something I realize I've learned in all the years since we were little babies on our first. set. Right. Right. Then I feel like I'm in on it and then I love being aware of the camera. You directed, right? Yeah. Yeah. I like it. Yeah, I bet. I bet you're good at that.

Oh my God. That's such an interesting because that was something I learned like a motivated pan, you know, like you help that, you help them tell the story. Yeah. By looking. It's a very interesting. They used to say this thing on Ugly Betty. If they didn't know where to cut, they'd say cut to America. Like if they didn't know how to figure out what the story was, what's the story in this moment? In the edit room, they'd say, well, cut to America, she'll tell the story. And there is something about that, like central character, the one with the, you know, the character with the problem or the one who's trying to solve the problem. If it's a good actor, and she was a very, very good actor, you could always cut to her and she would have exactly the right emotion on her face to help tell the story. Oh, I love that. I know, it's, it's, there's, nothing, nothing feels better than when someone who's not an actor on a set says, you're helping me.

That's just like such a, you know, when a writer says it or, or the director says it, it's just like, because, because we know what we can do. We know what we're, we know our thing, but we don't always know their things. And, and, and, and the, and it's the dance. It's really, it's really, like, it's a really, like, it's a really exciting thing. Because I also think what's cool about being on a set is on a movie set or a TV set is people come from all walks of life. Yes. To end up doing production. And, you know, maybe there's like a few paths that people are chasing.

You know, people go to Hollywood to be an actor or a director, not necessarily to be an AD or, you know, like a. gaffer. They might want to be a DP and they are working their way towards that. But they come from all walks of life and they focus specifically on their lane. And so there's there's all these experts. Everyone's kind of an expert. And it's really, yeah, there's so much to learn. And everyone's so different. And so you really get like difference in the theater. It's I guess in the theater people are more alike everyone kind of

like did plays in high school and now maybe they're stage managers or their lighting designers or the directors but we all kind of came from the same stuff and that's also cool that's also really fun and certainly in a musical you end up with musicians and dancers and things like that but

on a film set you just never know where someone came from and how they ended up there Yeah, I mean, when you start, you have your first meeting with a UPM or a line producer and you're like, what do you do? Yeah, I know. You do the Excel spreadsheets? What? You know, and then there's someone who's just a purely creative, you know, the special effects makeup person. And you're like, it's so weird that you guys are great friends and you do this job together.

But yeah, you're right. They don't speak the same language at all. Yeah. Did, because you obviously and Becky are so close and you do the rewatch show together. Still Ugly, which I find to be hilarious. Hats off to you. Thank you. How did you guys decide to come back to it to do a podcast?

And is it because you have just been such great friends that it felt like it made sense? Yes. It felt inevitable. We have remained friends all these years. We did. We've done lots of things outside of our time on Ugly Betty. When we did the show, they spun us off to a web series. We had a web series.

It's so crazy. And we had a podcast, actually. ABC came to us and they were like, in a first of its time, we are venturing into the soundscape and we would like to do a podcast. And they like, we were like, what's a podcast? It's like 2018 or 2008. What's a podcast? And there were some other shows that had podcasts, but it was like, you know, a marketing person would run it. And they thought, well, maybe Becky and Michael would like to do it.

And we did an episode for every episode. And we interviewed the whole cast and we interviewed guest stars. Yeah, it was crazy. And it was on ABC.com. And we would do it on our lunch breaks. They would bring microphones to our dressing rooms and we would record this podcast. So it was kind of inevitable that we would eventually come back to it. But yes, we stayed friends all these years.

We did a cabaret act together. We did a musical once. We did How to Succeed in Business. We were trying together. We were supposed to do a pilot that got kids. because of the pandemic. We were literally, like, I was literally, like, had a parking spot at Warner Brothers.

We were about to shoot this hilarious multi-camera show where we played siblings. And then the pandemic happened, and, you know, it got pushed out. And which is totally understandable. And then when we saw people were doing rewatch podcasts. I was actually watching The Sopranos for the first time ever,

which is the greatest show ever. Oh, my God, I'm just a greater. And I, there's two. rewatch podcast from cast members of that show. And so after a particularly amazing episode, I would like go listen. And I was like, this is really fun. We should be doing this. And of course,

Zach Braff does Zach Braff and Donald Phazon have their Scrubs rewatch podcast. Yes, which is so funny. So good. And I was a guest because Zach directs shrinking. He's one of our directors on shrinking. And he's brilliant. And their show,

they got through all the episodes. And now it's just a show. Now it's just a podcast. Yeah. And I was like, that is so, and it was so fun to be on. And I was just inspired. And so Becky and I had talked about it over the years. And then finally just made sense.

And it's hard to schedule because we're both shooting. She's on Lincoln Lawyer for Netflix and I'm shooting shrinking. But it's really special and really fun to do. And we're getting to reconnect with our old friends and watch the show. And the other thing that we didn't expect when we did the first podcast was that people would send us questions. I'm sure this happens to you too. People would ask for advice. And so it became kind of, they would like somehow, for some reason, Becky and I who were playing evil characters on the show were somehow counselors in their heads to these fans of the show.

And it still happens. We still, you know, this round of this podcast, we're still getting people who want advice and stuff. And obviously, we're not like experts, but Becky's really clever. And we give some advice and get some advice and get some great advice. It's very fun. And now a word from our wonderful sponsors. Sometimes I think, though, what people really want. want is, they just want an opinion from a friend.

And when you've played a character who feels like a friend to someone, you are in that character's psyche. Yeah, that's very sweet. And in a way, I did this recently. I was, um, I did an episode of Chelsea Handler's podcast and she takes callers. Yeah. And I'm also like, look, I'm not, I don't have a degree, you know, mental health degree, but like I've certainly spent enough money in therapy to feel like I have some good thoughts.

Right. you know, after all these years. And sometimes I think it's nice to get advice not from necessarily an expert, just another human who's trying to figure it out. Or an actual friend. You know, like a friend in your head is sometimes easier. Yeah. And sometimes when somebody's just getting the information face value, it's, I heard somebody say you want your friends to listen and your therapist to tell you what to do and it's always the opposite. Yes. Yes. And so like maybe there's something about, you know, the friend in your head that's in between. Yeah. Do you think there's an added element of that because shrinking centers around therapy? Like do the interactions you have

with people because of the context of the show feel like they've changed? Well, because my character is so funny, that's a very funny question actually, because I meet a lot of therapists who watch the show now. And this, so my character on the show, in the first season, he was this very like plucky, happy go lucky guy. And he had this mantra, everything goes my way. And I knew when I read the first episodes, I was like, okay, well, this is obviously a front. I mean, obviously this isn't, you know, he's just saying this. This isn't true. He doesn't really believe all. I mean, he might believe it, but it can't be true.

And I can tell already that eventually we're going to peel away the layers and find a real person underneath. That's not just like this. And then in the second season, and they did. And I had some amazing stuff in the first season. And then the second season, even better stuff. And at one point in the second season, I'm in a fight with Jason Siegel's character. And I'm making something about myself. and he was like, are you really so much of a narcissist

that you can't see what's going on here? And I say, yes, Jimmy, that's what narcissism is. Having the courage to put yourself above others. And he's like, that's not what narcissism is. And I was like, that's such a funny joke. That's so great. And then occasionally people would say, you know, this guy's, like Bill would be like, and then, you know,

we make sure we do this line, but also say something else, you know, say something that a narcissist would say in this moment. And I was like, oh, okay, oh, and interesting. And then I watched the second season, and I started to realize, oh, my gosh, my character is actually a narcissist. And then I met a therapist who watches the show, and she was like, I love the show, and I love your character. I'm like, oh, thank you so much. And she goes, he's such a narcissist. Just like almost accusatory.

And you're like, huh. And then I was like, I've been playing a narcissist without realizing it. And I thought, I was like, this is, it was fascinating because, you know, a narcissist doesn't know they don't know they're a narcissist. And you, you actually, you can't really tell them because that they won't really hear it and they'll just deflect it. I mean, honestly, just saying this out loud, maybe I am in real life a narcissist and I would never know it. It's so weird. It's like really heady to think about. But this character or not, that's all anyone talks about on set.

They're like, always talking about how he's a narcissist. And I'm like, oh, my God, I've been playing this. Is it making you feel cuckoo? A little bit, but also I'm kind of proud of it. Like, I've been doing it right. That's really exciting. You're like, no, I really got it in his head, actually. Obviously, I've been really doing it right.

I was so good at my job. And not judging him. And it turns out it works. But that was something I, you know, in drama school, I learned. We would play villains, you know, during Richard III. And they're like, we're like, but this guy's terrible. And he says he's terrible. How am I supposed to play this?

And they're like, you can't judge your characters. And so that was like one of those fundamental things that I learned. and don't judge your characters. Look at what, you know, get inside of them and figure out why they do what they do and all that stuff. Yeah, what makes them tick. Yeah. And the writing is so good on shrinking that I just play the role. You know, I just see what's there.

And I'm like, okay, this is when I think this is, da-da. And I'll be damned. I'm playing a narcissist all this time. But here's what I'll tell you. And this is what I think is cool because not that you'll be shocked. I love to ask my therapist a million questions about how he does his job. Oh. And he's like, you're paying.

me to ask me about and I'm like yeah I have a question here because you know all the all the articles now are about narcissism and you know when you're trying to I can't imagine why we're all talking about that no idea um when you're trying to sort of disentangle yourself um from one you do a lot of research yeah saying this for a friend obviously right right right um but I was like how how do people know and how do you deal with it and how you know like do do is there never a question question for someone who has this thing of like, could it be me? Am I this? And my therapist goes, if you've ever asked yourself if you're a narcissist, you're not. And I went, oh, right. He said they would never. You know, and it was this really funny thing. And so maybe that's part of it for you

is to realize, as you said, the writing is so good that you're getting into the head of this person. And because you're figuring out what motivates his behavior, you are playing him as he's written But even the fact that you're asking the question means, don't worry, you're okay. You're not too close to it. It's funny. That's so funny. It's so crazy. It's very interesting.

Have you ever, this is maybe a different podcast, but no. Are we doing therapy now? Yeah, kind of. There's that thing, like a narcissist, when a narcissist rubs off on another person and they become kind of like anti-narcissist, where instead of, you know, making everything about themselves they assume nothing is about them uh right they become um almost disembodied yes yes it's fascinating interesting it's this like consequence of being tied to a narcissist yeah where your existence becomes protecting yourself from them at all costs right and it is actually like the like the opposite and it's it's still kind of narcissism but it's like instead of it all

being like me, me, me, me, it's like, no one, no one, no one. You know, like, don't look at me, don't look at me, don't look at me, don't avoid it, avoidant, avoid it. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I know. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. I mean, listen, it's, it's life stuff, right? Our jobs are so cool and so crazy. How much fun to go to work and have everything be so funny. you're dealing with humor in the lens of mental health, which I think is a dream. It's not lost on me that the person I know you to be

has found this job in this moment, you know, that you're gathering an audience in such a cool, positive way. You are modeling really healthy masculinity and people, you know, being human to each other, what does it sort of feel like to have this now because you have been an advocate for so long. You have stood up for the community for so long. You have exemplified queer joy for so long in theater, in the pride plays, in your life, in your love, in your relationship, in your work. And we are in a really weird time where so much of the progress we made, feels like it's being so violently erased.

Like, how are you taking care of yourself? How are you holding onto your joy? It's so tiring. It's so exhausting. Yeah. Well, I am heartened by people that, you know, back in the day, even when we were doing partners, there weren't many people who were out of the closet. Yeah, well, especially not a lot, not, yeah, no, you're right.

I was about to say especially not a lot of men, but really just not a lot of people. Yeah. I mean, more women, but. but not a lot of people and and back then you still had to like make a whole thing about it even when it was obvious that you know you know like nobody was surprised when I came out but um you still kind of had to because they were asking I mean I remember one of my first ever red carpets for ugly Betty this guy I wasn't talking about my sexuality yet and this guy on a red carpet said so are you out and put a microphone to my face and I was so

I made exactly the face you just made. Like, what? That question was so unfair. It's just not. And I sort of hemmed and hawed and said, oh, well, I don't talk about my sexuality. That was my line that day. And the guy printed his question and my response. And he described my response.

So it was in print. I don't remember what the publication was, but he wrote my response, like that I harrumphed, hemmed and hawed, perhaps. Yes. And then said, I don't talk about my sexuality, which is just like, you know, and you, I know you've been there too. Sometimes you get asked a question in an interview, and you can tell they've already decided what they're going to write. It doesn't really matter what you say. They've already figured out what they're going to write. And especially when, you know, especially then and especially when it came to things like that.

And so, like, on the one hand, it's so nice to not be alone anymore and to know that there's this huge community of queer people in media. The GLAD Awards was like, gosh, was that. That came at the perfect time because we are being bombarded. And especially, you know, since January of this year, like, it's just nonstop, relentless. us, we all have to stay so on top of things. And everybody went after, I mean, everybody I know wanted to like go on a news diet and did. Some of them went on a news fast. And we just like, yeah, you have to sort of keep up with things. And it's just relentless. It's relentless. But to go into a room like the GLAD Awards that's filled to the brim with people who've done

the work and um live their live their truths and and um and not not only that but they ad you know they are they are all all everyone in that room is an advocate uh that was that was very special and that helped that was one of those like healing wonderful moments and you know and i've felt it in a few different events that i've been um host of or um emce of and and And there is a sense that you do have to acknowledge what's going on, but you also are allowed to, I think we are also allowed to put it aside and celebrate what is working. And that was the thing about the GLAD Awards that I kept going back to when we did that. Like, yeah, yeah, there's a dumpster fire happening. And all of our stuff is in the dumpster. All of our belongings are in the dumpster. Every single thing that's precious to us. Yes, is in the dumpster. But there's also great work being done.

done and constantly, and here's proof. Here's millions of awards with billions of nominees to prove that we've got a lot of great work happening and a lot of, we are moving the needle in so many ways. I think that's what it is, though, when you said it's just so exhausting. Yeah. It's exhausting to have to put out the same fire over and over and over again. Like, we've done this. We've put it out.

Can we not keep lighting the fire? What is the point? Why are you trying to burn people? Right. You know, and the sort of cognitive dissonance of it, they want to come for our community in such a way. And I'm like, the call is coming from inside the house, y'all. Like, you go clean up your side of the street.

We're set here. Yeah. You know, I cracked a joke about it recently where I was like, none of y'all have ever had a problem of a woman. like me is married to an adulter or white collar criminal or like whatever you have a problem of a woman like me wants to be married to another woman like don't the girlies deserve the chance to be just as miserable as the rest of you yeah like come on you know everybody's going to pay their taxes unless you're a billionaire go criticize them yeah yeah yeah it's like the whole thing is just so cuckoo to me

but i think you're right i think to be in a room where people are celebrated for example exactly who they are and exactly what they're doing with it, you know, and for what they're able to do despite the fire. Yes. Right. That's that part. It's a really big deal. And it was also just the most fun to watch you crush and host. And I mean, the split, the split, Glinda and Alphaba outfit. Absolutely. Did you hear me scream? I didn't laugh. I screamed. And then I was like, shut up, Sophia. Do you not distract him. He's on stage. It was a good look. All the moments were so.

Christian Seriano. Crushed. I've hosted enough now to know that fashion is your friend. Yes. When you're hosting something, it does have to work for you. Because we've all watched award shows where a host comes out looking normal and then bombs their jokes. Yeah. And if you come out looking great, that's your first joke in the bag.

You look great. I don't need to get a laugh now. I look great. The work is done. So shout out to Christian Seriano, who designed that look, who made that thing. And your carpet fit was Charles Harbison, one of my favorite human. Wow. Shout out to Michael Fusco, my stylist.

I had seven looks that night. You crushed. It was really fun. I wanted all of them. I was like, where did that suit also come? Fringe, give it to me. Oh, that one. It was so good.

And then, oh, yeah, it was a really. really special night and so many so many so many cool people and also you know you've been at that venue before backstage for other i mean i've been lots of different award shows that backstage is so tiny the room is not not big and it can get tense and awkward back there and like people not wanting to associate or not want to you know it's like these people's these people's these people's people are keeping them away from these people's people and like that kind of thing that happens backstage is weird weird creepy show busy things not at the cloud awards

I know it's a party at the cloud awards it was and everyone was bigger because everyone's looks were bigger so there was even less space and more skin and it was and no tension

backstage at all I was back to the whole night it was no tension we were cramped it was hot but we loved it was so we loved being there everyone loved being there

and was like supporting and I think it was because we all knew We'd done the work. Nobody was worried. There was no, like, stress. There was no like, did I, did I? It was all, oh, we did.

You did, I did. We've all done the work. Everyone did. Yeah. And now we can, you know, we can, we can handle this. And that's something to say. There's something like, I feel that way about really all the minority groups. Like, like everyone's had to deal with this.

already so this new round of hate it feels different it definitely this this this administration feels different than the previous administration or his first administration i should say um but even then we've been through this we know hate we faced hate yeah even if it wasn't head on we know what hate is meant for us and we are already stronger for we already have like the thick skins. They're the ones without the thick skins. I mean... Yeah.

Well, I think especially because we've been through this for so long. I mean, I think about, you know, 10 years ago, us being at, you know, Pride Marches, I think about growing up, going to them with my family. Yeah. You know, we know the playbook now. And I think the... Some of the sadness of the, you know, these seeds they've sown, like the lies have come home to roost.

And it's like every accusation you may. make, especially about queer people, is actually you admitting something you've done, that you want people to think we've done? Because what? Your spiritual advisor is going to go to prison for assaulting a 12-year-old? Mr. President? Like, you were besties with Jeffrey Epstein. Like, bro, I hate to break it to you guys, but the receipts are out. Right. And it's not us. And it's why I love how viral that that hashtag not a drag queen keeps going for years because they're like, oh, look, another one and it still has never been a drag queen, guys. We're fun. Y'all, y'all need to, you need to clean house on your end of the things and we will just be at the Glad Awards.

Hosted by Michael Uriek, hopefully forever. And also you think about like, you really think that we're just, that we're doing this because of you? You think that we, we are queer because of you, that this has anything to do with, don't you realize that we? They're narcissists. Well, that's, That's, right, exactly. I mean, you think it's all about them? It's not about it's all about, this is our thing. This is, this is about us. This is who we are and this is, and we did this because we didn't have a choice.

Right. Because we are this. Well, I think a lot of them forget, and again, this is probably why they're trying to ban all the books, right? Like, the people who ban books are never on the right side of history, to be clear. Right. But they're trying to ban all of the books because they don't want people to know that Pride started as a protest. Right. that the fabulousness was born of struggle.

Right. That it was literally radical to be seen in public as you are. Yeah. So our people chose to be seen in the best and biggest and brightest ways because they knew they could get killed for it. Right. And if people don't know that, they don't understand how actually revolutionary it can be to be yourself.

If they don't know that and if they don't like do the work to learn that, then they just believe whatever someone tells them and they say that it's bad. Yeah. And then they also parrot, then no one cares who you're sleeping with. And it's like, well, y'all are the ones asking people live on camera on red carpets. I know, I know.

No one's trying to volunteer that information. You're asking. You made us say it. Hello. Somebody responded to a tweet of mine or an ex post of mine that they said something like, basically to the tune of, don't rub it in your faces. You don't see straight people coming out and saying,

I'm straight. Like, have you ever seen a movie? Yeah. I'm also like, you... Do you know what a rom-com is? You're also disproving both of your points with this very message. You're asking me to be like you. Yeah.

And you're claiming your straightness. Yes. So, yeah, I guess... It's so weird. When people really were bombarding me when I started dating my partner and they were like, well, what are you? How do you identify? What is the word?

And I was like, has no one paid attention to any of the beauty? beautiful women I have kissed on both film and television for the last 20 years. No one's been paying attention, you know, and then I loved much of the lesbian internet. It was like, we all knew you weren't just acting on easy. I was like, thank you ladies. Thank you for seeing me. This is always where I have been seen. They were happy to claim you. They were very happy to welcome you and claim you. I'm just so happy to officially be home, though it's been home for so long. When to be seen is so special.

And I had like a very, you know, I get very emotional when people that I love are happy. And watching you win the Critics Choice Award, I was like, yeah, just so amped for you. Thank you. Was it because you love the show and because you love the material and the whole gang that puts it together?

And it's the critics choice. It's like to me it feels as cool as maybe SAG. It really does feel like, Like, peers. Right. Was that a really special one to win? Yeah. That's an interesting comparison because obviously the Saga Awards is voted on by actors.

Yeah. So that's, you know, that's a very satisfying nomination or win. But the critics, Critics' Choice, the critics, they're watching everything. Well, that's it. They see everything. With the keenest eye. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And to think that they watched what I do.

did and said we like that i mean obviously like you know we're all conditioned to to think reviews don't matter um and and it's and it's and of course sometimes it's true and sometimes it's not but like it is it is part of the industry i mean it is any art will eventually be um dissected and criticized good and good or bad and so like it is a it is part it is part of the industry we all have to accept it whether you read reviews or not i don't actually read reviews well you're not trying to make yourself crazy right well yeah because then you're like okay well do i do what they want me to do or do i do what i do what i think i should do and um but to know they're watching and smelling what i stepped in that was like really really gratifying and super surprising i mean

i wasn't i was not i didn't know it just you know my publicist texted me that day and she said you just got nominated for a critic's choice award and i was like what what that's today this is happening I had no idea. And then we went and my sister was my date and before, it was the night before the, the, the, the critics stories posted some video of, you know, like, we're getting the room ready. And it was like, like quick cuts of the seats with the pictures of the actors, you know. Phone board. Exactly.

And I was one of them. And I was like, whoa, alongside big stars. Like, it was like Angelina Jolie and Demi Moore. and Michael Yuri, and I was like, what is happening? And that was the first moment I was like, whoa, I'm in the video. Hey. And then we sat down and my sister was like, are you so nervous? And I was like, no, I'm not nervous.

I'm not going to win. This is just, we're just going to have a lovely night. I'm not going to win. And she's like, I think you might. And that was when I was like, well, Laura thinks I might. And she doesn't know anything. If you think I might. If she thinks I might.

Would it be true? Yes. And it reminded me actually of another moment when my, when my, when my mother said my my because it's so easy to talk yourself out of something yeah it's so so easy and when I was a when I was in community college I went to a community college for a year out of high school because I had terrible grades and um and I and I was trans I was like I was sort of like like going through a transition I thought I wanted to be a drama teacher and then I was like maybe I'm good at acting maybe I could be an actor and and I was like maybe you're a critic's choice

dot dot dot yada yada but then I had a teacher at this community college urged me to audition for Juilliard and I was like okay I'll do whatever you say I'll do whatever you think but I'm perfectly happy at my community college and this is this is what I want to do and blah blah and my parents were like how are we going to pay for Juilliard it's so expensive we don't have that kind of money and I was like guys I'm not going to get in I'm just doing this because I think it'll be a good experience and my mom goes I think you might And it was those two, I'll never forget, those two moments were really, I talked myself out of a possibility both of those times. And my family kind of showed me. And it, I mean, obviously like one, by the time I, they said my name at the Craig's Choice Awards, the voting had been done. And it was nothing I could do. I mean, I, you know, there's nothing you can really do. But it's certainly when I auditioned for Juilliard with my mom. confidence that helped you know and my mom's not at the business my mom doesn't know but she

watched me and she thought i was good and she could see that other people were responding to me and and she knew somehow she knew yeah yeah really cool yeah it was cool so it's uh yeah it's it's there's something about that like obviously all we do is in order to be seen that's where we got into this we wanted to like make stories and how people look at them but yeah um And I know that people are seeing me, but to be seen is sort of different. They're saying, I get it. I get what you're doing and I like it. And that was very gratifying.

It's so nice. It's such a nice form of validation. Yeah. You know, it feels like a healthy version of that to do. Do the work you do with the pride plays, do you also see it in that way as helping people be seen as helping queer stories be seen? Totally. Like how did it, how did it come to fruition? And I sort of want the backstories you can tell us about how it's growing this year. Yes, yes. Thank you. Thanks for asking us.

So basically, Doug Nevin, who is a wonderful theater, a man of the theater, he's a lawyer and a producer. He and I became really good friends. He was a producer of the solo play I did buyer and seller, this play that I did for a long, long time where I played an actor working in Barbara Streisand's basement. Look it up. You'll love it. And we became really good friends because we were the same age and we just got along really, really well. And we kept, we would always talk about queer theater and the good and the bad. And obviously I do a lot of theater and a lot of queer theater. And there's no, there's no lack of queer theater. And there's no lack of queer stories in the theater. It's a pretty queer medium. But what we kept noticing, I kept noticing

specifically that it was me and the same couple of guys every time up for roles or we would follow each other. Like, you know, Jesse Tyler Ferguson didn't do this so I did it. I didn't do this so Jesse did it. And it kept like, and I was like, I get why people think Jesse and I are alike, but we actually aren't alike. We're actually very, very different. And yet we keep getting, you know, even sometimes mistaken for each other. And I'm like, all right, well, that's like, this is a problem. We need to like, and I also know, because I also, like, my partner is an actor and I know lots of other queer actors.

And there's this mid-level issue, which happens in, I think, all industries, but there's this thing where, like, you can't get experience until you've had experience. And they won't give you a chance without experience. And so what Doug and I wanted to. do was create this opportunity for people to have opportunities. And also, we didn't like that queer stories were continuing to be told by straight people. When there are, I mean, I don't think this, I don't have a black and white rule about this. I don't think, I don't, I think that this is a fluid conversation about, you know, who can play what.

But I do think when a, when a role or a story is inherently about the queer and, that to say a straight person is the best person for the job is silly. And that happens a lot. You know, like, you're like, well, can't we just hire the best person for the job? And it's like, yeah, you can. And you should. But will you? But like, who are you seeing?

Yes. Who's your casting pool? Yes. Are you seeing all the straight, are you seeing all the gay people before you see the straight people or as you see the straight people? Or are you, you know, is your list a bunch of straight people? people that, you know, yada, yada. So that was something that, and then Doug on his side of, his side of the industry was, we were, you know, like, as queer plays get submitted to theaters,

they end up in the same pile. So you might have a play about a 40-something white, cis, gay man in the same pile as a story about a 20-something black trans woman. And like, those two plays, those two plays shouldn't be in the same category. Right. Why are you putting them in the same category? and then choosing one over the other. Yeah. It's like you wouldn't put a World War II movie in a rom-com in the same pile. Thank you, exactly.

You know? Exactly. And so that was, it's like, gay is not a category. Yes. Gay is, you know, that's a kind of a part. Queer is a, so we wanted to create a festival where they could all. So we set out, we were like, let's do a festival. And this was for World Pride when it was in New York in 2019.

That's when we started. Yeah. And we thought we could, we'd do like four plays. And then we were like, wait a minute, there's a lot of different kinds of people in this community. And we need to try to represent all of them. And it ended up being 19. Wow. And I think we did a really good job.

It was hard, but I think we really did, you know, tick all the boxes, so to speak, and, and reach out to like as much of the community as we could and try to represent all of them. And so in the years since, we did one on Zoom during the pandemic, and we've done educational initiatives through the festivals. And this year, World Pride is in D.C. And we're going. We're going to D.C. for World Pride. Pride plays will be in association with the Willie Mammoth Theater Company during World Pride. And we're going to do, I think we're going to do six play readings. and it should be

it should be great it might be charged it might be there might be some I don't know what it's going to be I mean honestly don't know what it's going to be like and things change so rapidly especially in that town

but I've worked in that town a lot in the theater I've done a lot of theater in that town and it is one of my favorite places in the world to do theater because the audiences are so they're so intelligent but more than that they are they're curious

they want to learn and because their jobs are so intense everyone in DC has such intense jobs they really are able to put it away and come and focus on something new as opposed to sometimes in New York like you get like professional theater goers who see four four shows a week And so it's always, it's always, it's always, it's always work for them. And you can feel them say, what's different? What's new? You know, in D.C., you can do, like in New York, if you're going to do, say, Hamlet, it's got to be like either definitive or brand new, some brand new version. And in D.C., you can just, like, throw Hamlet up and say, this is Hamlet. Yeah, and it can just be good. It can just be good. Yeah, exactly. It doesn't have to, like, reinvent Hamlet.

Hamlet or be the best Hamlet ever, which New York's, you know. I've had seven times. Yeah, exactly. And in New York, you try to do some old play. And, you know, if you didn't completely reinvent it, then it's a failure, which is weird. But in D.C., you can do that. And the audience wants that. So I know the audience will be great for us in D.C.

And I feel like it's going to be great. That's my hunch. I'm excited for you. You never know what. You never know. Yeah. It's going to be a lot of queer people coming to D.C. You know what?

Good. They need it. Yeah, I think so. And I think we have an opportunity to, you know, change some minds. And now for our sponsors. When you look at this sort of landscape of your life and, you know, your life with Ryan and your life in work and that your advocacy and your shows and the plays. and all the things, you have a lot. What feels like your work in progress right now?

Right, right. Right, the title. The title. You knew it was coming and then you forgot. And then I forgot. And it's come full circle. There it is. There it is.

It's probably, actually, there's some adulting that I think is a real work in progress. And that's something that I'm, like, you know, like when I talk to people who are younger than I am, there are lots more of them now. Right now that happens to us. Yeah. And when I see in their eyes that they're looking to me for some kind of insider advice,

you know, I had somebody that I'm close with who's about 30, asked me to mentor them. Like, I actually asked me to mentor them. And I thought, oh, I can't, yeah, I'm a two. Oh, right. I am old enough to be someone's mentor. So wrapping my head around that and trusting that I'm an adult and I can do that. And I can like just off the cuff give insights and advice that aren't entirely my own experience. Because that's a really hard thing in, especially in our business, is all you really know is what happened to you.

We've been around and we've been able to observe things. but I can only really, I can only really know what's happened to me. And your experience will definitely be different because we all have different experiences. No two actors are the same. But it's navigating that, like sort of the responsibility of being elder gay, of being, you know, like elder actor, being the oldest person in the room sometimes.

And then also outside of show business, you know, animals getting older and homes falling apart and mortgages and like those kinds of adult things, nieces and nephews that are coming of age and aren't just little squishy things that I can hand back. Like now they're, okay, this is forever. These memories are forever now and I want to be, you know, I want to be a good citizen to them. So I think the work in progress is actually being, you know, like, I think in show business, I'm way more at ease than I've ever been. And as a man adult, I'm figuring it out still. I'm still figuring out. Like, how do you be a man in this? And also, our world keeps changing. So I'm giving myself a little bit of

slack, a little bit of grace. But yeah, what's it like to be in Middle East? man. That's a big question. Because 88 feels good. That feels like a good age to make it too. So that means this is the middle. I love people who are, well, this is mean. That means you have a whole other half.

That's right. And look at what you've done in the first half. That's right. Yeah. Totally. And so much of the first half was spent as a kid. Yeah. Which doesn't really count.

Exactly. I was too squishy. It's like you get double the adult time now. Yeah. I know. It's cool. I love it. Yeah. Well, I'm excited to do 44 more with you.

Great. Let's go. Okay. Let's see you on a beach when we're 88. Oh, how fab. Just not giving a fuck. Right. Well, I love you. I love you.

I love you. Thank you. It's so nice to be here. So happy for you. Thank you. This is an I-Heart podcast.