Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Symone Sanders-Townsend

Episode Date: August 15, 2024

The presidential race is heating up, and who better to discuss all the latest developments than a former White House political strategist and co-host of MSNBC's "The Weekend." Symone Sanders-Townsend and Sophia discuss Joe Biden’s withdrawal from the 2024 election, Tim Walz being announced as the VP pick, and Donald Trump's recent comments questioning Kamala Harris' race. Plus, Symone talks about her incredible journey to the White House, from being the youngest presidential press secretary to becoming the first Black woman to serve as a spokesperson for a Vice President. She also reveals the advice she got from VP Harris when she decided to leave her office to pursue a new career.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hi, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Whipsmarties, it has been a very big couple of weeks for those of us who believe that, you know, all things around us in the world are influenced by politics. The progress of politics is important to us. Newsflash, true for every single one of us. So I decided after last week's announcement that Vice President Harris has picked Governor Tim Walz as her vice presidential pick in her presidential campaign to call one of the smartest people that I know in the world of politics, none other than Simone Sanders Townsend. Simone's show The Weekend on MSNBC is one of the places I always turn to to get incredible.

coverage on what's happening in the country. Simone rose to prominence in 2016 as the national press secretary for U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders' then presidential campaign. At just 25, she became the youngest presidential press secretary on record, and she was named to Rolling Stone magazine's list of 16 young Americans shaping that year's election. At 29, she published her book, No, You Shut Up, Speaking Truth to Power, and reclaiming America, and then she served as a senior advisor for President Joe Biden's 2020 presidential campaign. She spent an incredible amount of time working as a senior member of the Biden-Harris administration. She served as deputy assistant to the president, senior advisor and chief spokesperson to vice president, Kamala Harris. And all around,

Simone is an incredible communicator with a passion for problem solving and social justice. She happens to be one of my favorite friends in Washington, D.C., who I've been lucky enough to travel the country with, doing everything from election or organizing work, to speaking at the Institute of Politics at Harvard. She's genuinely the most fun friend and the most inspiring political brain. And today, she's here to answer all of our questions about this election. Nothing is off the table. And for that, I am so grateful. Also worth mentioning, for those of you who might be in Brooklyn in September, MSNBC Live is hosting an event called Democracy 24 on September 7th at the Brooklyn Academy of Music. Tickets are available now.

I am really hoping I can attend. Do not miss it if you are in the area. Okay, let's get to asking all of the 2024 election questions and then some inspiring ones too to our sweet, dear friend Simone. Well, Simone, my favorite lady, thank you so much for joining me today. And honestly, thank you for taking the time in the middle of August from Martha's Vineyard because I know you'd rather be on the beach. But we have democracy to talk about. So bless you for giving me an hour of your time and all the folks. Oh, of course.

It's the least I can do. It's always good to see you. Hi, honey. How is life? How's your man? How are you before we get into like the state of the world? Life is good. My man is good. He was also on Martha's Vineyard, but he has since going back to work. It's good. Life is good. You know, this is just an extraordinary time. I mean, I was supposed to be in the, we take a trip every year in the summer for our anniversary, and we were supposed to be in the Bahamas. This year is one of our favorite places to go. And the day we were supposed to leave for the Bahamas, we decided to stay because that was the day when it became clear that all of the this stuff was bubbling up.

Like, Joe Biden got out on that, said he wasn't going to be in the race anymore that Sunday. We were supposed to be leaving like Monday night, Tuesday morning. No way. And so we did not go. But it has, those are the kinds of things like this. Yeah. Who knew, Sophia? I saw you what?

Like a couple months ago? A couple months ago, I did not have this on my bingo car. Uh-uh. By the way, when we were all in D.C. together in April and, you know, we watched the president take the stage at the correspondence dinner. it was, I mean, what a swirl of emotion. You know, we were talking about Evan and all of the other journalists strongly imprisoned around the world.

Brittany Greiner and her wife were there talking about, you know, what these prisoner swaps look like and advocating for Evan's freedom. The president crushed, you know, all of his jokes. Like, and I don't mean this as shade against Colin Jost. I think he's very funny and he did a great job. I thought the president was funnier, which, you know, says a lot. And yet by July, here we are. Can you, can I just ask you, like, some non-political speak opinions, like, real talk?

Because now there's people out here being like, well, he must have been unwell. And this was a scheme. And, you know, the internet has turned into a conspiracy theory cesspool. But, like, you have worked for so many incredible elected officials. You have worked in the Biden administration for a very long time, you know, closely with the president, closely with Kamala Harris. you know the ins and outs of this group who is actually working on preserving our democracy in the face of fascism. How do you just human to human walk us through? What did the summer look like? Where does the shift come from? How does a president make a decision like that?

Can you let the lay people in on the realities of it? You know, it was, so I have seen the president a number of times over the last couple of months and I I literally saw him at the White House's Juneteen celebration. Like I was sitting, we had a chance to speak with he and the VP and the second gentleman prior to. And then obviously I was sitting right behind him. We were all turning around chint and chatting. And so, you know, this, I really think this notion of the president being unwell is something that did start, as I like to say, in the bowels of the internet, but had made way into mainstream conversation to the point where people who like the president, who are supportive of him, who are, you know, Democrats, their whole lives will say, oh, but he must not

be well, I see the signs. Did everybody want to be, you know, a doctor off WebMB, you know, every other day, depending on who you talk to? But I would just say, you know, Joe Biden is still the president, right? And so he's the president until January 20th, 2025. And so I, this notion that If Joe Biden was unwell, knowing him the way that I know him, he would tell us. He would tell us because health is not something to play with. But let me just back up. This notion that the president was maybe too old, if you will, to run for re-election is something that voters, a number of voters across the country thought. It was something that there were folks who were elected officials in Washington, D.C.

This was something I would hear elected officials, strategists say. but and and some people might say okay well that's an ageist argument because you know Donald Trump is not but three years younger than Joe Biden look at people like Nancy Pelosi and Jim Clyburn and I'm thinking of Bevy Smith who always talks about it gets greater later and you know Mika Brazinski has the 40 the 50 over 50 list and always talks about things you know your second wave of life and so I understand this notion that it is a it was an ageist remark to make an ageisting to say that like, oh, he, he, there should be, he's too old to be to run for president again because he's doing the job right now and was doing it. I would, I would

argue very, very well. I mean, the people that just came home, the hostage situation, like, but yeah, hello? It was real. Yeah. It was real. And people's perception is their reality. And if people perceive, if their thought, that was their reality. And you just suppose those very real thoughts and feelings that folks had with the fact that they maybe didn't see the president enough in organic situations. I think that he is really great at a town

hall or in people people scenarios and in these random off the record stops that aren't previously announced but he pops into a space and place and sits there and talks with people and answers their questions. I don't think he's always as great on a prompter, right?

There are some people that just say they exude more good stuff when they are organically in the mix and not on a teleprompter. I think a lot of Americans were seeing Joe Biden through the filter of the teleprompter and looking and being and the duties of the president. Can I also say something that I think, which you are a wildly professional administration person, maybe you can't

say this, but I'm going to go ahead and offer my thoughts. The entire time I watched that debate, I was like, I wouldn't know how the fuck to respond to this either. This is nonsense. This man is nonsensical. He's not even saying things. First of all, he's not saying anything that's true. Like, Trump is just straight up up there lying. Nobody's fact-checking the guy. Of course the president is looking at him. Like, what the fuck? How do I even, which insane thing you just said, do I pick to respond to first? But Sophia. But Sophia. But the double standard is very real for these two men. And to your point, perception does shape.

reality. And while it is undeniable, this is not an opinion, this is not an emotion, this is on paper, fact, data, policy, historic investment. Joe Biden is the most effective president we have had in America from either party in over 60 years. Thank God for the American Rescue Act. Thank God for the infrastructure bill, which by the way, all the GOP folks who voted against their out bragging about the investments they got made in their state. Literally, literally. Today someone was like, we need to make sure we keep the energy credits because that's, That's what Republicans were like, look, they sent a letter to Mike Johnson saying they want to keep the energy credits because that has spurred business development in their district. Yeah, it's almost like the Democrats know what they're doing.

Your assessment of the debate is not wrong. Like, yes, Donald Trump was saying insane. Like, anybody would be like, well, what is going on? But the problem is, it's not just anybody. Joe Biden is the president who planned and prepared for this. That's true. His team wanted the debate. And the debate performance, it was bad.

Like there's no other way to say it. The performance was bad. But baked into that performance from other people, again, the perception that they had is that, oh, well, I thought he was too old in general. He seemed a little off his mark. Maybe he wasn't well. Maybe he didn't feel good that day, which he said he had a cold. And so all of that played into what people already thought and they see the debate performance and like, oh, he's done out for the job. Now, I frankly do not believe. And I might be in the, in the small number here. But it is not my belief that that debate performance, should have led to where we are now. And I say that knowing and respecting and having deep love for Joe Biden and knowing and respecting and having deep love for Vice President Harris. Like, I've had a range of emotions over that week that everything went down because I have had the privilege of knowing and working for them both. Yes. But the faux pie here, and this is this, you got to handle your politics.

And the people around the president did not handle his politics as well as they should have. What I mean by that is there are members of Congress who called up the White House the day after the debate and they said, oh, it was bad and we, da-da-da-da, I want to talk to the president, blah, blah, blah, and they were rebuffed. They said it's fine. The people at the White House said it was fine. Some of the folks on the campaign said, don't worry about it. And those members of Congress specifically, they felt like that the campaign apparatus around the president, the people closest to him. And even the president himself, given what he said post-debate, I mean, he was at the Waffle House looking great, by the way, okay? Yes, but saying, oh, it's hard to debate a liar.

Yes, sir, it is. But let's say, I didn't have a good night. And we didn't get to, I didn't have a good night. We need a little more. A week later. Yes. And I think by the time he arrived to that point, the cake was already baked on the people that wanted to orchestrate his demise. Very well said.

I like that phrase. I'm going to borrow that and credit you, the cake was already baked. regardless of... But it was his decision. Yes, it was. It was an untenable position. I mean, they made it untenable so it was like, he could have, though, decided to

dig his heels in and say, I'm the president, 14 million people voted for me, and I'm staying in this race, but Joe Biden is a good man, frankly, he's a better person than maybe all of us. I agree. And listen, to have done, again, no emotion here, just the data, to have done

more for this country than any other president in 60 years, and to be handed for, you know, I'll say you can't, a shit sandwich, he did the right thing. He did a valiant thing. He did a kind thing. And look, I don't stand politicians, to be clear. I don't think they're my heroes. I admire public service. I admire it in the military. I admire it in elected office. I do not admire the folks out here lobbying on behalf of the gun lobby, but, you know, that's a whole separate piece of the pie. Like, people who want to dedicate themselves to make this country better, I respect and admire. And that doesn't mean I agree

with everything. There are policies of the president that I am not a fan of. There are a lot more that I am a big fan of. And at the end of the day, I think if I have learned anything from women who have been at this longer than me, and particularly Simone, the black women in my life, who have been at this generationally like you, I have learned that my thirst for immediate action and evolution in our political sphere is at times childish. We are working for longevity. We are working for the preservation of generations. I would like us to be at Utopia now, but I know it's something we have to build, and I know you have to be patient and invest. You know, political action is not a sexy one-night stand. It is a lifelong cultivated

marriage. And so as I sit here and I think about how you continue to press a country toward progress, how you don't let folks get left behind or forgotten about anywhere in any class, you know, in any protected group or group that is not protected enough, I know that that requires dedication and selflessness. So I'm going to go ahead and again say the thing that I can say as a civilian, which is I think the president was incredible. incredibly generous to look at the landscape of the country and say, regardless of how I feel or what I know about myself, it's not my time at this time. And the surge of joy that we have been able to watch with Vice President Harris stepping up. And by the way, being able to tout her

incredible legacy thus far, for whatever reason, vice presidents never get any credit for anything that they're doing. But when you look at the list, I mean, it's not the job. If you are If you are a vice president running around getting a bunch of credits of you, you're doing a bad job of being a VP. I agree, but she has done some very substantive and historic work from reproductive rights to working to stabilize Central America with, with, you know, U.S. partnership and, you know, working on immigration despite the fact that the Republicans torpedoed the bipartisan immigration bill because Trump said so, which is psychotic, but here we are.

Like, she has done incredible things. And now we've got Coach Walls in the group. And it's like, America's dad has come to hang out with our favorite auntie, and I'm so happy. Tell us how you're feeling. Tell us what the temperature is. So I am feeling like this energy is amazing. But to be very clear, we did not get to this moment if on Joe Biden's way out of the race, he doesn't say, oh, and I endorse my vice president. Yes.

Because there were a lot of people, a lot of people now who are like, oh, on the Kamala Harris train who were on the open convention train. And I'm just, I'm looking at these people like, oh, oh, okay. And because he endorsed his vice president, the president he,

when he originally chose her to be his running and said, I would believe she is ready on day one. And if I am not able to be the president, I know she's able to do the job. Yes. He carried that through all this, and when it mattered the most. He

stood behind his vice president that frankly stood with him. And Joe Biden is in fact, because he did that, he was the bridge that he promised us he would be. He was the bridge that he always said he wanted to be. And that's the door. And the service. And because Vice President Harris had been doing the work this entire time, you know, much has been made. People, people, a lot of people had thoughts prior to, you know, her locking up the nomination and whatnot, saying, oh, I don't know if she's up for the challenge, if she can do it. And those people, my opinion, had not been paying attention to her for the last year and a half, two years, three.

I mean, I just don't think they've been paying attention. I think they let her presidential campaign and how well it didn't do color, what they believed. Like, they had a prism, a filter on, and they could not see her for what, they could not see her and her work for what it truly was. And that is, in fact, transformational, serious. She has been a true governing partner to the president.

And she's having a good, she enjoys campaign. of people. And I think that's coming through on the campaign trail. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. People who wanted to ignore her record have also ignored her record as a senator, as, you know, a district attorney. I'm just like at the Attorney General, I'm like, I'm so sorry. What are you missing about how progressive and fair and inclusive to everyone. This woman has always been. You know, maybe I know more about her because I grew up in California, but she is an incredible candidate. And beyond just ignoring her record, I also think a lot of people need to go back to social studies class because I'm like,

do you all not know how civics works? She is the literal vice president of the United States of America. She's not like a random person being installed as the nominee. Like, she is the active vice president of the United States of America. And the people and the delegates within the Democratic Party, they voted for her. They won her. I mean, to be very clear, in the primaries, when people voted for Joe Biden, they were voting for Congress. They voted for her as a vice president. And then when Joe Biden bowed out of the race and then endorsed his vice president, she just didn't say, okay, it's me and it is a coordination. She got on the phone and she went to work calling people for their endorsements. And the hours after the president made us all aware via, via social

media that he was no longer in this race. It's my understanding that she was on the phone calling up, anybody, members of Congress, union folks calling them up saying, I want this one and two, I want your endorsement. And that

is like campaign 101, honey. You get on that phone, you call the people, you have the conversations, and you ask for what you want. A closed mouth will not get fed, and a close mouth will not get a vote. Okay? So I just think she had the right mindset here. Exactly. Exactly. And so can you talk to us about how you view the campaign? And look,

I want to be very sensitive. This is a historic moment. I, again, I'm a Californian. I know her record. I will never forget what it felt like to watch the news and watch her at the time years ago say you will start performing marriages. I mean, she has stood up for equity and decency. and everyone in our country for so long. So, you know, I've got those opinions. Also, it is a historic, incredible moment. We have a black woman running for the president of the United States of America, like,

and so it's like, what I don't want to do is make it about a man, but this is also the week that she announced Tim Walls as her VP pick. I happen to love coach. I think he is a miraculous person because he manages, is being sort of like a quintessential older sweet white guy dad football dude to also be a kind

inclusive man who has proven that incredibly for his state that you can bring everybody along and nobody loses not even guys like him who you know want to say they're suddenly losing in an America where women like you and I are no longer under threat every day just maybe still most of the time like I don't know it's a weird argument but like he kind of kind of does away with a lot of the complaints that come out of these bot farms on the right. So I want to focus on her and I want to talk about him. How does it feel, you know, from inside the administration? What do you see since the announcement of him being the pick? Yeah, give me the inside baseball here a little bit. I've talked to a number of

current administration officials, you know, folks that still work for the president and vice president on the official side. And I talked to a bunch of the campaign folks, the senior campaign leadership, but also maybe what we would call rank-and-file campaign staff who just were watching the news, just like the rest of us like, oh, Joe Biden's out, oh, Kamala Harris is in, we're doing this. Yeah. People are excited. I think people are very excited. I think folks are surprised by how much the momentum has continued to build. And these, I don't remember the last time. It's been a while since a Democratic candidate for president

has had an airport hanger rally that has been filled to the brim and spilling over. So that is an exciting piece. The senior leadership, though, and I would also note the vice president herself, I think that they are very clear-eyed.

Clear-eyed that this is still going to be a fight. That there are people in this country that want what Donald Trump and J.D. Vance are selling. And the vision that they are offering, and that nothing is going to be handed to them. They know that the race is going to be close. And so I don't think that the vice president herself is riding high, if you will, on the sugar high.

She's doing the work. She's doing the work. And I think she's clear and she's resolute. That's just from knowing her, that's just the kind of person she is. When the stakes get high and when everybody is having fun and people are like, oh, this is our moment. She's always like, okay, but focus. because the reality is is that there are what

as we have this conversation we'll just say less than 90 days until election day but it's even sooner than that Sophia until people start voting in this country after convention within the first week of September in key places across the country

folks are going to start going to the ballot box and cast their vote. Tim Walls is an excellent to be very clear any pick the vice president would have made would have been an excellent pick because the candidates that the contenders that I'm aware that were in the in contention, all of them amazing representatives of the Democratic Party apparatus, amazing people that would have been great, great, great running mates and excellent vice presidents if Connolly Harris is to be

elected. Tim, well, also, the vice president felt was right for her. And as a, when you select a running mate, it's the first major decision that a nominee makes. It's literally the first presidential level decision that they make. Because you're picking the person that in the event you cannot do the job, to be very clear, that this is the person you want to have your job, and someone that you want to work with and be your governing partner for the next four, maybe even eight years. So she obviously felt like she had that

in Governor Wall, someone who is the current chair, the Democratic Governors Association. Like, this man, people talk about Governor Walls. Like, he just fell out of a freaking apple tree and found his way up into the meeting of potential next vice president of United States of America. Like, no, he too has done the work

throughout his career. And I would know he's a native Nebraska like myself. So Nebraska folk are taking credit for Tim Walls, but this is going to be a fight, Sophia, and if the news currently is any indication, they're going to be attacks from the Trump and Vance campaign that the Harris Walls campaign are going to have to contend with. We have yet to see either of the major, either of the candidates, either of the tickets, whether I'm talking about Donald Trump or J.D. Vance or Vice President Harris and Governor Walls sit for joint interviews together, right?

That's something that usually happens. When Secretary Clinton chose Tim Cain, as her running mate in 2016. About 48 hours later, they were doing a joint interview when Vice President, then candidate Biden, he chose then Senator Harris as his running mate in 2020.

About four years ago, actually, frankly, oh, wow, my goodness, about four years ago this week. Crazy, right? Maybe about almost two weeks later, about 12 days later, they set together for a joint interview. So it just depends.

This is unprecedented. Because to be very clear, not only in two weeks' time did Vice President Harris stand up a campaign apparatus and she's a running mate, like she's also teasing out what her policies are going to be. I would not suggest anybody sit down for an in-depth interview anywhere and you're not sure what your policies are, honey, because they're going to have to answer those questions.

But should they maybe be, are they going to, are we going to start seeing them take more questions as they're out and about with the reporters that are traveling with them? I think they should. The couple of Harris I know, that's what she did when I worked for. And that's what she's continued to do over the last couple of years, a couple of years as vice president. So that is where I see this race right now. I don't think people, though, should trample on the enthusiasm.

Have you heard people saying, like, oh, why are they so excited? Yeah, but I don't care. I'm just so happy. It feels nice to feel happy about our future again. It feels nice that good people can go and do good things for other people. You know, Trump unleashed. Look, there's always been hate. but Trump unleashed like a hate machine on steroids and it's so tiring it is tiring to have to fight tooth

and nail to just remain at baseline and to begin I believe for so many people in this country to see that we could get like up past baseline into goodness that there could be more infrastructure investment there could be more job creation you know communities that have historically had, you know, their working classes dying in coal mines or contracting cancer post that lifetime of work could actually be the first communities to get green sector jobs where they work in safe environments and have health care. Like, you know, kids get to eat in school. Even some of the attacks of the right on Governor Walls, they're like, he gave kids tampons. And I'm like, y'all, I'm a 42-year-old woman. And I was at the

Modern Art Museum in Grand Rapids last week, got my period a day early and couldn't get a tampon and was like, I'm a grown-ass person who has to freak out about this. I don't know what I would do if I were 12 and I needed to go take a math test in the next, you know, in my next class and this was happening to me. Like, I didn't know, maybe sure children didn't go hungry was a radical, you know, position. I didn't know that like, be sure and folks have what they need for their health care situation, which should be clear, like, women get periods, girls get periods. Like, this is, this is, this is, this is part of what happened. Students menstruate and pads are, you know, they're necessary, they're necessary products. I didn't know making sure that, you know,

young girls who are at school can have access to those items and not have to, you know, see if they've got a dollar or $1.25 or if they have change in their pocket in order to get the, what they need is a radical position. I didn't know that ensuring that people in a state capital somewhere are not overriding your doctor when your doctor

tells you what you need for your health care is a radical position. To be very clear, which is why I think it's really important, Sophia, that people are very specific, right? And so when some of the attacks on governor walls are specifically about how he was as a governor. They say

he was a very conservative member of He was a moderate Democrat, right? And he got elected in a conservative district in 2006 and served in that district until he left her to run for governor. And he, during that time, he had a high rating from the NRA, right? All of these things. And they say, well, that was congressman walls, but governor walls is someone different. And I think that the campaign is going to have to contend with this. They're going to have to beat this back aggressively, in my opinion, because narrative is a very powerful thing.

And because he is new on the national state, of so many people. They cannot allow this narrative to take hold. So you've got to be specific. Like, okay, what things the governor walls do that you didn't agree with?

Feeding hungry children? Yeah. Let's just ask the questions here. Yeah, let's ask the questions. And by the way, I loved that he took to the internet to say, yeah, I'm a hunter. I've grown up with guns.

I used to get an A rating from the NRA. And then when I learned what they were spending money on, ensuring that these mass shootings keep happening, I changed my opinion, and now I'm proud to have an F rating. I was like, dude, you're great.

You're just great. It doesn't all have to be so hysterical. But I think part of the reason that it's hard is because, at least in my opinion as a, you know, a political nerd for sure, but a civilian, we do deal with on the right a lot of projection. A lot of what folks on the right are guilty of. they're saying the Democrats are doing. And it's tricky when one group is like, well, no, we don't do that. And the other group is, you know, screaming hysterics all the time.

It doesn't really feel like a level playing field. It's like we show up, you know, to the argument, like, I always think of it like Westside story. Like you got one group showing up to the playground fight with like little switchblades. And you've got the other group showing up with an oozy. And you wonder why, like, everything feels crazy. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word from our sponsors. I think people need to hear Donald Trump in his own words unfiltered because that is who he is and that is what voters are getting.

Exactly. And when he doesn't have the softball questions prepped from his friends at Fox News and he has to actually, you know, speak his opinions or speak off the cuff, I mean, the way his disdain for women and his role, racism pours out of his body. I'll come to the, you know, Kamala Harris observations he made in a moment, but even the fact that he dared to say with a straight face, I've been the best president for black people since Abraham Lincoln, excuse me, sir, excuse me, first of all, no, you haven't, the programs you've defunded, the people you've come for, what you have promoted out in the world. Like, from policy to personal affect, you are a nightmare. But the fact that you would say that is so shocking to me. And it's also, I mean, not shocking. I guess. That's what's wild. He shocks me, but it doesn't surprise me. Maybe that's the way to say it.

Because he's a salesman. And Donald Trump believe, look, if you say anything enough times, people may start to believe it, right? Like, it's this whole thing about, like, why, why do Democrats, why are Democrats regularly ranks lower on the economy, literally generic Democrats, lower on the economy than like a generic Republican? Because for years, Republicans, have just said they're great on the economy they just said they're good on taxes. Even though the data proves the opposite. Honey, where's the policy to back it up?

So Donald Trump is trying to use that when it comes to he actually used that strategy on a number of different things. But that's why he does things like that. And for so long, people never fact checked him. They would just let him say the crazy thing. And it's like, well, Donald Trump yes, says again, blah, blah, blah.

And now people are like, wising up to it. And the media apparatus is like, okay, we're not going to, we're not allowed. going to allow this to go and check. There's still some issues with the way in which Donald Trump gets away with things, but I think that he is being held accountable more now than ever before. One of the good sides of this much connectivity is we just know so much more existing in the world because we see it.

So when he says on the stage at the NABJ that, you know, he can't believe Kamala Harris is black, that she, quote, was always of Indian heritage, was only, promoting Indian heritage. I didn't know she was black. And then he goes on to say, you know, and she's turned black. Is she Indian or black? And I was like, bro, first of all, it's insane to me that in the year of 2024, you don't understand that mixed race people exist. It's wild that you would say this when your running mate's wife is also of Indian heritage. So his children are mixed, your would-be hopeful vice president's kids. And, sir, Kamal Harris went to a historically black college. She's a member of the AKA. Even if she didn't go to a HBCU, even if she was not

a member of a sorority, like whether one is black or not has nothing to do with the school they went to and the sorority they may or may not be in. Who is Donald Trump to tell anyone who they are? But just wild to me observing it to go, sir, you can't say like, oh, I met this person and didn't realize her family history. She's the vice president of the United States of America whose entire life is on the record. If you've ever watched a speech she's given, ever paid attention to groups she advocates for, or knew anything about her personal history to be proud of where you come from. Like, my mom's family's Italian. My dad's from Canada. guess what? I'm a dual citizen in Canada and I try to go to Italy at least once a year to see my family. I love both places. You don't owe anyone an explanation for that. I sure don't. You don't owe anyone an explanation for that and neither does the vice president. But she shares her rich history being a daughter of immigrants, a daughter of Oakland, California, someone whom her mother, who she often talks about her mother, Shambla, who she says, you know, her mother knew she was raising two young girls.

black girls that that's how the world would see her children and she made sure she instilled in us the richness of our full heritage. So this idea, this is why, I think Donald Trump was doing two things on that stage with that particular comment. One, he was speaking to just frankly

the racist parts of our electorate because they do exist and the folks who, and the racist parts of our electorate saying, you don't even know what she is, you sure you want her to be president. That's essentially what he was saying. But I also think he was speaking to this undercurrent that exists within communities of color that say, well, who

is actually a person of color? Who's actually black? And I think that the second thing that he was doing is a lot more, it's sinister. It's something he himself didn't understand. He probably saw it on the internet or somebody said it to him. But either way, no one in this country owes anyone else an explanation about their identity. You know what I mean? About who they are. Like the beauty of this is what Governor Walls was saying. He's like, give me to say, mind your own damn business. But like, if Donald

Chup wants to ask these kinds of questions and if he would like to ask the vice president like, well, is she actually black? I do not suggest these are questions one should ask. Okay, but if you, if you decide you'd like to ask them, perhaps they should be asked on a debate stage. But you're standing next to her.

And she said herself, like, if you have, you have so much to say, maybe you should say it's my face, but those are not things that he would do, but the fact that it made its way onto a stage where the cameras were on in a room full of journalists, and now that very sinister

comments have been repeated writ large, and everyone has heard it. It opens the door for folks in their own communities to repeat some of the same sinister language that Donald Trump is saying. And so this is why it's just like, Donald Trump could be defeated at the ballot box this November.

Like, Vice President Harris, she's running a good campaign. It's still, you know, less than 90 days, she can win. And even if she wins, while Donald Trump may be defeated, Trumpism is not going away. And I think there is a larger conversation that is to be had about how Trumpism has so ingrained itself within the DNA of the current Republican Party apparatus that it's not going to be enough to just defeat him at the ballot box because there are people who have been elected all over this country. in Congress, some in state legislatures, some right, some in the secretary of state's offices. Some election officials. Oh, yeah. Election officials. And they believe what Donald Trump believes. That's what's so dangerous about this moment. Yeah, it is very scary. Well, it's very scary to have supposed American civil

servants adhering to the language and goals of dictators and despots who we've judged around the world. And when they think the one in their own backyard could make them rich, They go, eh, the hell with democracy. You know, that is stressful for me as a, you know, passionate citizen, also daughter of immigrants who, you know, all my family is here because of this idea of this American dream. And it's surreal to see how quickly people are willing to sell it out. But it is why I feel hopeful because what I appreciate is that the vice president and Governor Walls are reminding us. It's not hard to live next to people. It's not hard to be good to people.

It's not hard to say, listen, you do this and I do that. I'll mind my business. You mind yours. Let's make sure everybody has rights. I loved that Governor Wall said, rights are not like a pie. There's enough for everybody to go around. Like, you can have yours, and they can have theirs,

and them having theirs doesn't threaten yours. Like, we can actually all just listen to each other. And it's nice to have folks presenting us with a, a vision of an America where we as a country get to solve problems together instead of fight each other to see who wins within our walls. That's just not useful. It's not sustainable either. Like, it's not what, I mean, you know, the president always talks about like America being an idea. And it is. America is an idea. It's an experiment, frankly. And it is an experiment that only

it's like it's a system that only works if you're working, okay? And it is, it is, I like what you said about how it's kind of like our democracy is like a long term, it's like a committed marriage situation. It is something every single day and some days you'll get it right. There will be, some days there will be setbacks.

But I just haven't traveled all over, you know, we've traveled all over our great country but also the world. And I still, I still would rather, there's no place in the world I'd rather be than being American. Like the privilege, just the privilege of, and when I went to the White House, one of the things about working at the White House

is when you travel abroad on behalf of the United States government and I travel with the vice president when she went on all of her, we call them Okonises. I don't know why they call them Okonises, but it's an international trip. And when we would travel abroad, it's like they didn't care. The people abroad, it doesn't matter. if it is a president that was a

Democratic president that was elected or a Republican president that was elected. We are Americans. You're representing America. And we, that is how the U.S. The people abroad are not looking at us as Democrats or Republicans or independents. They're looking at us as Americans. And when you step

off a plane in a foreign country as a representative of America, it is one of the highest privilege, it is quite possibly the highest privilege I feel like I've ever been afforded to represent America. That's It's probably how the Olympians feel. Yeah.

To be for America right now. We're like, yeah, we're rooting for them because they are representing all of us. And that's, that is why who is in the White House matters, who the president is matters, honey. Because these guard girls that y'all think exist, let me tell you, it is only as good as the people the president surrounds themselves with and a Congress that is willing to do their job and a Supreme Court that is, that is willing to stay in their box. held to ethical standards. Come on now. And the Congress has been unwilling to do their job, the Republicans in Congress. And then the Supreme Court, it's like the ethical standards don't exist.

Well, they've all been bought and paid for. Come on now. They're not there. And I just, I don't know how better to tell people that so much that what happens in the White House and in the federal government is, is just a bunch of people sit in a room saying what it is they'd like to do. And those people are often the president, the president's chief of staff, maybe as a vice president and their team and the core team around them. And if those people do not have the same reverence for the role and the job and don't feel the same way about stepping off the plane as Americans that I just described, well, then, honey, we are for a ride. Right.

Well, and I think it's been very important for us to realize, to your point, how fragile the guardrails are. People assume they're made of steel, and they're kind of made a glass. We can't risk all of this repeat harm done. The idea is that we get better at achieving the ideals of the American experiment. And folks who are willing to sell off the American experiment for parts, I think, shouldn't ever be back in the White House again. I'm really curious, only because, I mean, my God, I love having, like, really timely, topical, deep conversation. with you about this stuff. But I also want to like, I just want to give you all your flowers for a moment. You are, you are an incredible human, you are an incredible American, you are an incredible

friend. You, you have been someone that I enjoy learning from, advocating alongside, who has been willing to sit, you know, do the, do the things in public and the big advocacy. But like, we've also sat at like the IOP in a back classroom at Harvard talking to students and like you've been an ear for me to vent about my life and ask questions like what do I do in this situation that's really hard for me right now and so I think people can forget when they look at someone like you who has done all the work that you've done that you are so young like Simone you were 25 years old when you became the national press secretary for Senator Sanders. on his presidential campaign.

Like, how did you get that passion? Oh my God, that's not even 10 years ago yet. Hello. That'll be 10 years next year. Wow. This is what I'm saying. Like, you were 25 years old. You were a baby.

So where did the passion come from? And then how did you handle the pressure at that age? Like, because I want to know how you got there and how you did it. And then looking back from here, almost 10 years later, what advice you might give young folks who want to follow in your footsteps. Well, first, let me say you were very kind. You also, Sophia, you do such a great job of just, I think when I, when I see you and a number of people like you, right, but I think of this Nina Simone quote, and Nina Simone says

it is an artist's duty to reflect the times. And there are so many, I mean, you are, you are an actor, you're a director, you're a philanthropist, but you're an artist. At the end of the day, you're an artist. And there are artists out there that do not feel it is their duty to reflect the times. There are people that have opinions and thoughts, but they do not do anything with them.

They share them amongst their small groups, but they're not going out there trying to help people register to vote, trying to help seeing where they can fix some of the things that are happening in the community, how they can stand up and just kind of do what they can in their own space and place. But you do do that. And I really think it's important that you, I really, really think it's important that you do that.

There are lots of other people that do it. Like, I think of, I'm not even going to lie. Have you heard this before? Someone said, some one said to me the other day, they were like, you know what? Sophia Bush is like the white Carrie Washington. I said, when it comes to the politics, she's like, yes. I said, you know what? Yes.

You know what? They say that because Carrie, she will show up for the voting streets, honey. She will do an activation. He will fly to Maine. I love that woman. That's a big compliment for me. Yes. And they were like, yeah, Sophia Bush is like, the white, Carrie,

And I was like, you know, next time I see Sophia, I will make sure I tell her that. But that is, I think that's so important. So I know you gave me bad flowers, but like I appreciate, I do, I appreciate you because we need people like you. We need people to use their platforms and use their time and their space in place to just talk about the issues because it makes it so much more accessible. I would just quickly say that how I got the, how I got there, the Bernie Sanders job, It really was nothing but, like, I think, I mean, I worked hard, but I think it was just a lot of, like, prayer and just, I'm a spiritual person. And I think, I believe that it was that what is for you will not miss you. And I had gone on like 27 interviews before, like literally 27 interviews. I interviewed everywhere. Every Democratic entity in Washington, D.C., every, every Democratic committee, they all, one place I went to like eight rounds of interviews, only for them not to hire me.

But tell me that they loved my spirit and I dress very well. So I get a call from like Bernie Sanders in campaign manager randomly on my cell phone, somebody whom I had worked for previously gave him my resume. And he called and he asked me, did I want to, you know, come work for Bernie Sanders? I'm like, who is this? And I end up going to meet with Jeff Weaver and then maybe a couple weeks later, I meet with the communications director. Then I don't hear anything.

So now I've been on like, you know, 29 interviews, no job. I have a job now, but I don't want that job anymore. I had moved to D.C. to do politics, and I wasn't doing politics. So I wanted to do political work. And I get another random call on my phone. And it's someone from Bernie Sanders' office and they're asking me to meet with him. We end up going to meet that day. And the senator and I get into an argument when I get in there. And you met Senator Sanders. I love him. Bernie Sanders have to say the same thing, his entire career. That man is the epitome of like his authenticity. self because he has believed when he's believed since longer than I've been alive, okay? Yeah. And so Bernie Sanders let me know that he thought I had a fundamental misunderstanding of his economic policy. And I was just like, well, sorry, I think I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what

I'm saying. And so we would kind of went back and forth. I told a story or two. And by the end of the conversation, we were on the same page, right? And he told me he liked me. I was like, I like you. and then he was like oh I think I want you to work here

I was like I think I could work here and then Bernie Sanders asked me something nobody had ever asked me before he said well do you have an idea what you want to do and I knew exactly what I had wanted to do because I knew what I wanted my next role to be I knew what I wanted my title to be I knew the experience I wanted to be able to get

so that is what I asked for I told Bernie Sanders straight up I want to be your national press secretary I want to be your on the record spokesperson I want to have a hand in the messaging strategy just like we discussed here and I want to you know do cable television and Bernie Sanders

was just kind of like, have you ever done cable television before? And I was like, no, sir. But I do think I'd be very good at it. And he laughed and then days later I get a call back on my phone again, it's Jeff Weaver. He starts talking about a phone and a laptop and I'm like, well, what's my job title, Jeff? And he says, National Press Secretary. Now, Sophia, I did not think they was going to make me

the National Press Secretary, honey. I'm going to ask for what I want. And then I'm going to let you, if you want to have me down, you can have me down. But that is, I think, the best piece of advice that I could give. And I remember, and I take that experience with me and everything that I have done since then. I think that we should be about the business of asking for what we want and what we know we have worked for. And then when we get it, we need to be able to execute. And how many times do we ask for the thing right up under the thing we want?

Because we feel like somebody's not going to give it to us. All they could tell me is no. Right. I love it. Aim high. Expect a counteroffer. And sometimes you'll get asking. sometimes you'll get

I mean I love it I love it and it's worked for me and I just I am I'm very comfortable with who I am I think I had to be comfortable

I didn't think I was getting that job when Bernie Sanders and I started arguing I was just like but since I'm here I'm going to say my piece because when am I going to be sitting in the office of a United States Senator again

and I've been in many more offices of the United States Senator you sure have I just I think it's important that folks, I think young women especially, young people of color across the board, should know that their authentic selves are just enough. And I think that while there has been a lot of progress across all these various industries, I mean, we're talking about the fact that the Democrats have just nominated a black woman, a woman of color, a woman of South Asian descent as a nominee. the first of any major party.

This is the ground that Shirley Chisholm laid. Shirley Chisholm was the first woman to run for president on any major party ticket. In 1972? In 90s. But Shirley Chisholm laid the groundwork for Geraldine Ferraro, which was 40 years ago. She was the first woman to be on the major party ticket

as the vice president for running mate. That laid the groundwork for Secretary Clinton in 2016 to be the first woman of any major party to be nominated as the nominee, which brings us to this moment that we were currently in with Vice President Kamala Harrison. So much progress has been made, but there's still such a long way to go.

And I just, you know, my authentic self is just enough. I can't, so like, I don't put on anything else when I go to work every day. I literally have the privilege of going to work just at Simone, because Simone is just enough. And now a word from our sponsors who make this show possible. So what means? you know? Because you said you spoke what you wanted into existence with Senator Sanders. Then you were in the Biden campaign. How did you know that it was time to leave for the cable TV part? You know, I, so I did the Biden campaign. I worked through the transition. I served the president and vice president and the administration. And it was just grueling. That was from the campaign to the administration, it was about three years. Because I joined the campaign in 2019. And then,

2020 and then 2021. So by the end of that year, almost the end of the year of 2021, I just felt like that I was burnt out. I felt tired. I felt like I was coming home and I was an unhappy person, you know, because I'm tired. You know, when you get tired. Because you're exhausted.

Yeah. I was exhausted. I was hopping on and I've been hopping on on all planes for about three years and I want to be able to go to brunch. I was also about to get married. Like I got engaged earlier that year and my wedding was going to be in 22

and I just had to make a decision like do I I enjoy and loves my job I have a deep respect and love for the president and the vice president and it was tough for me I didn't even want to tell the vice president that I was leaving

and you know what I did I told the chief of staff first that I had made a decision to go my chief of this time her name was Tina the vice president's first chief of staff and Tina was like well

we all want you here and I'm like yes I know Tina but I have I just feel like it's my time and, you know, I'm tired. I told Tina all the things I'm telling you. You know, I'm getting married and I want to be able to enjoy and plan my wedding. And Tina's like, well, you must tell her. And I'm like, well, can't you tell her?

And I didn't want to tell her because I, I loved my job. And I had deep respect and love with the vice president. And she gave me an opportunity that no one else had afforded to me. She never hesitated to make me her spokesperson. She called me and she told me, I would like you to be my, senior advisor and my chief spokesperson. She never questioned if I could do the job. She never suggested that I didn't have enough experience. All she ever did was put confidence in me that I could do it. And then we would go and get it done. And I didn't, you know, when you decide you want

to leave something that you've been in with people for a while, it's like you kind of feel like you're letting people down because it's like, oh, you think of all the things that you're responsible for. And so I think in the moment, I didn't want to be the one to tell it to her first because maybe I didn't want anybody to say hey maybe maybe you should stay I don't want her to I don't want her to counter me and what if I'm in a weak moment and like she's I'm like okay fine I'll stay so I asked Tina to tell her first Tina Tina Tina took her time telling her for the same reason I think I took I didn't want to tell her and when she finally told her the day she told her we were going to do a I think we're going to do a campaign event in

Virginia because it was in advance of the midterm elections and we get out of the motorcade and we're walking down the hallway in like this school in Virginia where the rally is happening. And as I'm walking, I'm trying to brief her about this stuff. And she's like, I talked to Tina. She told me. I'm like, ma'am. She was like, you and I need to talk. I say, yes, ma'am. And the next day, she asked me, coming to her office, and I sent to her office for about 45 minutes. The Vice President of the United States of America does not have 45 minutes for her staff person to be sitting on the couch, talking about something that is not connected to work. She doesn't. But she took the time to sit there with me and the conversation that we had, she never once

countered me and told me, tried to talk me out of decision I made. She wanted to understand why I was leaving, which I told her exactly what I told you here. And she gave me good advice. And then she asked what she was that I thought I wanted to. She, well, I will just paraphrase and note that she told me, she told me that whatever I do next, I should understand that I am in the driver's seat. She underscored that like the work we had done here was, was truly transformational amazing work the work here is not yet done

but like she reinforced that she understood that she understood where I was and then just kind of talked to me about how the decisions that I'm making how they affect my life like she talked to me about she had known she had gotten to know my now husband very well

you know she would give him herbs from her garden she got a garden in L.A. but also at the vice presidents at the Naval Observatory she'd always be bringing stuff say in a little baggie that this is for your husband because ain't for me because I'm not cooking Sophia. I'm not the chef here

and she so she talked me about that and it was so interesting because when I originally met her way back when I met her shortly after he and I started dating and so she kind of been on the journey with us the whole time even before that so I had all I would always kind of talk to her about the things you know she's someday it's like an auntie

but it was a great conversation and she did pour into me there and then she was like, now we've got to go to work. And I remember every single thing that she said to me in that conversation.

So when I was having my meetings when I left the White House, I was very clear, just like I was when I was with Senator Sanders and all the other jobs I've had previously, what I wanted.

I wanted a show and I wanted my own show on TV. And every single network had told me that is not what you really want. They all said the same, they all had the same script.

Oh, you don't really want to do that. Oh, I don't think that's what you want. Don't you want the flexibility? But I'm telling you what I want. I want a television show on TV. I want my own show on cable news. And it wasn't until I met with Rashida Jones from MSNBC. And she asked me, well, what kind of show would you like to have?

And that is where we got to, to where we are. Now I'm one of the co-hosts of the weekend. But one, I've never, I always think about not allowing, anyone to put me in a box where I become a caricature of myself. You know, I have a lot of personality. You know, I don't necessarily talk how people are used to how other news anchors, people are used to hearing. And this is how I was when I worked for, you know,

when I worked in the federal government, when I worked for the vice president and the president. But the vice president, she always would say to me, she's like, you are funny, but you are also very serious. And you are substantive. And if people are, if someone is not getting both of those from you, they are not getting you. And I think about that as I do this job now. I love that.

I love that. And I think that's really important. That's something that my friendships with women like you have taught me is, you know, my intellect and my deep 20 years of showing up for policy work matters. And yeah, I'm also like a wildly unsurious person who, you know, wants to run around to late night diners and go to dance parties. And there has to be space for all of it. And I think particularly women who are intellectual or powerful or political get the funds discouraged out of them. And I'm excited to be in an era where it feels like we can be more full. Yes. Whole people. Who would have thought? Who would have thought? Who would have thought?

It's given dynamic. Yeah. Well, when you think about this larger dynamic of your life, this thing that you, you know, spoke, claimed, owned, when you sit at the helm of your show, is it everything that you dreamed of? Like, is the little kid Simone who pretended to host her own show happy? Do you love it?

Yeah. Honestly, like people, especially nowadays, everybody's like, oh, well, do you miss the campaign trail? Do you miss this? that I'm, as a campaign person, you definitely missed the campaign trail because I came up and doing campaigns. Like, I'm a campaign baby, for sure.

But I love what I'm doing now. And frankly, I know what the people, you know, I read the trade newspapers and the, I know what people say about cable news. But the reality is, Sophia, when something happens in the world, people turn on their television. And when

they turn on their TV, I mean, when when the interaction happened, when when folks took up arms against against officers who were defending the United States Capitol people who attempted to

subvert the peaceful transition of power people turned on the TV to see what was happening I mean when Joe Biden said he wasn't right for president anymore he dropped it on social media

so people checked social media then they turned on the TV but they wanted some context put into what they were seeing and they wanted to know if it was true because nowadays sometimes you see on the internet isn't true so with all

that these things are happening in the world, people still turn on the television. And when they do, they are expecting to find someone there who's going to tell them the truth who's going to be actual and factual and substantive who is just going to give them the information and help give them a roadmap. And I,

great honor and a great privilege. I feel so blessed to be able to do that with Michael Steele and Alicia Menendez on the weekends every Saturday and Sunday and the opportunities that I have throughout the week. So this is, if I am not in the fight, if I'm not in the fight at the White House or, you know, out on the campaign trial, I think the next best place to be is on TV giving context to the moments that we are collectively experiencing as American people. And, you know, that is my, you know, radical revolutionary contribution to this moment. I love it.

And when I think about the stages and phases of life, you did that work so that you can have this kind of innate expertise. in this phase. I mean, what could argue? Who could have orchestrated it better, Sophia? Like I knew. We're going to get the ball. I love it. You are a literal walking example

of the power of manifestation and hard work. It's my favorite combo in a human. As you sit here, you know, in this moment where it's all come true, when you look out at the year ahead and not just necessarily with the election, I guess I just mean more for you,

like for Simone. what feels like your work in progress now you know I just this is a deep question what is my work in progress now look I just think that this there are well the election

is what is in front of us as like the American people right and the people that are keyed into the political every single day there are many other things happening across our country and across the world that don't make it to the front pages of the newspapers or on the cable news every day and there are

real issues that people are dealing with across this country, whether it comes, whether they're dealing with them economically, whether we're talking about, you know, the reproductive fight, whether we're talking about criminal justice. I think about, I recently saw the video of Sonia Massey. I waited to watch it. I read all the descriptions, but I was like, I need to watch the video. And like, these things are still happening. So I just would say that there are many things that need the layers peeled back, that need the context that need to be spoken about. There are many conversations that need to be had that are separate from. I think everything at the end of the day is political. Everything is not partisan, but everything is political. You know, the ability, the difference between Sonia Massey being alive today and losing her life in her kitchen because a police officer shot her in the head, that is in fact political. It is political to be able to go to the grocery store in your neighborhood to get vegetables and green lettuce. It's political to be able to go to the doctor and get the health care that you need in a timely manner that is high quality when you need it.

And so everything, in my opinion, is political. Everything, though, is not partisan. And so I think that many of the things that I just mentioned separately, they are political. And so they are connected to this current moment, but it is not, they don't, they, this current moment, this election is not the only thing. And so I'm excited about the ability, like what, what conversations we're having post-November 5th, 2024, post-January 2020, 20th, 2025. I hope we're not talking about another potential insurrection. I hope we are not having conversations about how elected officials across the country who have, whether they've been elected to serve or volunteer election officials have developed a very sinister plot

to subvert the will of the people that the person that they wanted is in fact not elected. I hope that's not what we're talking about. But if we are, I'll be ready to have the conversation. Well, my hope is that 52 years after Shirley Chisholm ran, indeed in 1972, that we get to see that dream manifested into existence

and that we, to your point, have a peaceful transition of power and that we get to continue working toward progress for the American people and economy that works for everybody in a world where women like us get to actually, you know, maintain our sovereign rights. That would be lovely. That would be lovely. I don't want the handmade sale, honey. Me neither. I'm good. I would love to just put a real stop, just break pedal on that. Please and thank you. And so may it be. You are a powerful manifester. I feel like me getting to have this conversation with you put some things in motion in the universe. So thank you for coming today.

Thank you for taking the time. I absolutely adore you. I adore you be well. Okay. And I'll see you soon. Okay, I'll be watching you. Bye, boo. Bye, honey.

My Heart Podcasts.