Drama Queens - Work in Progress: Zachary Quinto

Episode Date: November 21, 2024

Zachary Quinto has thrilled audiences with his performances on stage, film, and TV, starring in huge hits like Heroes and American Horror Story and playing the iconic character Spock in the Star Trek reboot. The brilliant actor is now tackling a new role in NBC's medical drama "Brilliant Minds." In a candid chat, pals Zachary and Sophia get very vulnerable about the election's outcome and how they plan to move forward. Zachary also talks about his journey through sobriety, shares the impact meditation has had on him, the biggest shift in his life that set him on the path to acting, and how booking Heroes and Star Trek at age thirty affected him. Plus, Zachary reveals why he initially was not interested in playing the leading man in NBC's new medical drama, "Brilliant Minds," and what changed his mind.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Hey, everyone, it's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress, friends. I cannot think of a better guest to have on the podcast this week for some introspection and some hope and some, oh, some really good heart talk about compassion, not to mention all of the artistry. This week's guest is none other than Zachary Quinto. You likely know Zach for his roles as Siler, the primary antagonist from the sci-fi drama series

Heroes or Spock in the film Star Trek and its sequels, perhaps from playing the ever-so-scarry Dr. Oliver Threadson and American Horror Story Asylum, which he was nominated for an M.E.4, he is currently starring in and producing NBC's Brilliant Minds. It is an incredible medical drama that honors the life of real Dr. Oliver Sacks, who explored neurology and consciousness and made incredible progress in our understanding of the human mind. Zach also has one of the most incredible theater careers everywhere from New York, Broadway, the West End, all over. He is an absolutely incredible stage actor, and he's a really phenomenal advocate and activist for the queer community. Being out since 2011, Zach has been an incredible organizer, and we are so lucky

to have him here today. Let's jump in. Hi. Hi, handsome. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Silly question, I know. I literally this morning have just been, I mean, I've been catatonic for a week, but I was like, thank God it's Zach.

Like, I was wearing my hair as well as hat today when I went out to a meeting. I was like, you know what? I'm realizing this profound shift in practical ways now. in ways where our position now becomes a position of resistance. You know, it becomes a position of our power is in the holding of who we are and where we are in the world. And that's, you know, that is not the way we would have liked to see it, I know, but it doesn't diminish the power of our position or our experience.

And so I think it's just, It's about really, for me, it's been really about plugging into that. This week for me has been obviously very disorienting. And I would say the primary experience that I've been having is one of trying to discern a proportional response to what's happening. Because I think obviously the outcome of selection is indicative of a much broader failing of humanity in many ways. It's a much broader indicator and harbinger of what's to come. And I think in some ways it is the outcome that was necessary. And I think we can see that by just how definitive it was, you know, just how absolutely unambivalent it was. There was no ambiguity

in this election. And so I think that is a real indicator for me of the broader conversation that we need to be having right now, not only as Americans, but as human beings. Absolutely. I think something that's giving me some comfort is seeing as the, you know, the rest of these votes in large states like ours get tallied. You see that it was not an overwhelming majority at all. that that does actually help but one of the things that it really has solidified for me is um you know

the difference between complex messaging and simple messaging and the the simplicity of your life is bad because of these people not here's what a four year economic recovery post a pandemic and a global inflation and bills to deal with it. And, you know, it's so complex to have real conversations. And when you make people afraid, you can make them work against themselves. And one of the big things that has been a big aha moment for me in this is that they've made every single issue that governs progress, feel as elective as they've always treated women's issues. So they'll say to us, and you saw it a lot on this campaign because of the overturning of Roe, we understand the women are upset, but we're focused on the economy, as though women being denied medical care

and dying in hospitals is somehow less important than the economy for everyone, i.e., the men. And we've basically, I don't think we've figured out how to be clear that social issues, moral issues are economic issues. Sure, of course. You know, one's been sort of relegated into emotion and one's been relegated into fact, even though the quote-unquote fact of the economy is something that they're lying about. And I'm like, oh, wow. we have to figure out how to communicate and translate things like policy in completely new ways. Yeah. I mean, also as you're talking, you know, I think we also have to zoom out again from this place, right? I think for me, what this experience has taught me and brought me closer to and myself is this fundamental understanding that we are living in an entirely unprecedented.

time that there is actually not one single human being on the face of this planet, including Kamala Harris or Joe Biden or Donald Trump or Elon Musk or any of them, that has experienced what we are about to experience collectively in the next 5, 10, 15, 20, 25 years. Not one single person on the face of the planet has experienced what we're about to encounter as a civilization. And we need to get real about this truth. Yeah. that when you take the variables of climate change and artificial intelligence and the confluence of those two things alone,

not to mention the myriad other things that are factors outside of our control, but if you take those two alone and you consider the mass migrations on this planet that we're already starting to see that are only going to intensify and increase, you're going to have tens of millions of people on the face of the planet needing to move, meaning to leave where they are because their their homes, their homelands are uninhabitable. This is very real. And anyone is welcome to deny it as vehemently or as long as they so choose. But eventually it will become undeniable.

And then you add into that mix the infiltration of artificial intelligence. This is a technology which we have already brought into our experience. We've already brought it into our lives. It's on our phones. It's in my toothbrush. And, you know, the blanket way in which we've embraced this technology that we know so very, very little about. And this technology, which is designed to evolve exponentially, the supposition that that technology will not evolve

beyond our capacity to manage it or regulate it or control it is absurd as far as I'm concerned and the question is really just a matter of how long will it take for that to happen and so once that happens and you mix into that the confluence of global migrations

and climate migrations and climate refugees we're going to see a planet that does resemble itself in any way, and I think, you know, to what it is now. And I think that that's going to happen a lot sooner than we might think, you know? If not in our lifetime, certainly in our children's lifetimes. Not that I have children, but if I did, you know, my God children's lifetimes. Yes. So I feel like, yes, politics, yes, how do we communicate policy? Yes, yes, yes, And how do we move beyond these social constructs and belief systems that we have all collectively agreed would be our guiding principles through this life, which are clearly showing signs not only of strain, but of collapse. The structures are not holding anymore.

Geopolitical boundaries are not going to be any kind of calming force. in the context of climate change or artificial intelligence, right? People who cannot any longer live in the place that they were living and have to move somewhere else are not going to be able to afford the luxury of a boundary, of a national boundary. It's simply eventually not going to sustain

with a population of our planet. And so we really do, I believe, have a responsibility to, yes, get on the ground, roll up our sleeves and figure out how can we slow the role of this incredibly small-minded, punitive, ungenerous political platform that is embodied by this administration that's about to take control. How can we resist? How can we make it harder for them? But also, how can we realize that we kind of are focusing a little bit on the wrong thing?

And what we need to be focusing on is actually, how are we going to survive? how are we going to thrive as a civilization you know I mean the the sort of most reductive example of this that I could really think about is like just the Middle East and the battle over these places this land that is so tethered to identity religious identity but the reality is that when it's 170 degrees in a place that is uninhabitable it doesn't matter who got there first or who belongs to it because nobody's going to be able to be there. And so where are we going to go together?

Where are we going to go together? That's my question for everybody, because we're focused on the binary. We're focused on the black and white. You're right. I'm wrong. It's this way, not that way. But that way of thinking is really largely responsible for what got us here in the first place.

Yeah. And it's self-directed. It's small s self-directed thinking. And what I'm suggesting, and what I had been suggesting even through the campaign, is that we have to create space to allow for the evolution of our civilization. And the only way that we're able to do that is to expand consciousness. And so for me, the outcome of this election and the thing that is instilled in me is this commitment to my own continued expanding consciousness

and to encourage other people to come on a path of consciousness expansion because I think it's the only way we're going to be able to see beyond the things that are right in front of us that are blinding us to the fact that the whole ship is sinking, guys. It's not just our country.

It's not just our country. It is our civilization. And we have to be accountable to ourselves and to each other in a way that transcends geopolitical identity, in a way that transcends ideology, in a way that transcends the constructs of radicalized religious fervor and extremism on any level. And I think we're really living through the awakening to that. And people are awakening to it at different rates and in different ways. and it's coming online in people's experience very differently.

And this election was certainly a big kind of unity point, I think, for a lot of our country and a lot of the world to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, wait a minute. This is what we're embracing now. This is the message we're sending to the world. This place that for 250 years has been, bring us, you're tired, you're poor, bring us everything and we will create a place for that has just become there is no room in the

inn that's what we have just become to the world and so how do we reconcile that as people who still believe in those fundamental truths on which this country was built yeah that's i think really what we have to ask ourselves now and how do we do it with compassion for the people who are so spun up in anger and so spun up in hatred that the only path that they see forward is to cut other people down so that they can feel powerful. That is the thing that I think is the real unknown variable in this equation, which is will it be enough for them that they have won? Or is it going to have to be also punishing? And I think I'm afraid that the answer is the latter. Yeah, me too, particularly because I see the boasting about it and the planning for it.

And I do think it's really interesting. Like we, as you said, the ground game of making sure that we can wrap our arms around community, we can support our most vulnerable and it requires a both and an extreme zoom-in. on the local level and then as you're talking about this massive zoom out to discuss a global shift because it's not a coincidence

that you have Nazis running for election in Sweden and you have a far right violent leader in Italy and around the world you see this swing toward authoritarianism and all the historians have been saying hey guys we've been trying to talk to you about 100 year cycles

we've said it's coming study the 1920s study the rise of Hitler it's coming and I think as you've said we can look at history to understand how this kind of fear-based violent movement builds but we have absolutely no predictors for what it looks like in a modern era as the planet heats and as artificial intelligence has literally declared a war on truth science facts and even imagery we don't even know what if what we're looking at at is real anymore. And so it's a very wild time, but I want to thank you because in all the

years that I've known you, you're such a, you really are. And I just realized I almost did a pun. I was going to say, you're such a brilliant mind. And then I was like, wait, that's so dumb. It's the literal name of your TV show. But it's true. And I really, I always cherish the time that I get to spend with you because whether it's been a week or a year we just pick up and we're in the same way about you and you're just a gem in my life and you're one of the people who makes me feel like we will build the community we need so I just wanted to say that I feel that way about you too I really do thank you for saying that and um you know I definitely am in this part of my experience the zoom out for me is where I need to be.

I know that a lot of the things that I'm talking about seem abstract. I don't think they're as abstract as they might come across initially. But I really do feel like this is a moment of tremendous possibility. And, you know, with possibility comes comes sacrifice with possibility comes you know tumult and and we are certainly seeing that in in our collective experience right now but I do feel like we cannot despair you know we cannot we cannot surrender we cannot collapse because the reality is that there is space for everybody that is the reality you

know from from a consciousness perspective there is space for everybody. And I don't need to hate someone else because they believe something differently from me or they live differently or they are different than I. And I'm really trying to work with compassion for people who do. I'm really trying to work with compassion for people who do. And to just say, like, I'm really sorry. Because the ultimate thing is he may be president, but I'll tell you something, the personal experience must be really, really bleak and dark. And to have that be the experience of consciousness is, I just feel, you know, I can't,

it's, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know what I can say. It is a really unfathomable time. We'll be back in just a minute, but here's a word. from our sponsors. Thank you for taking the time to just sit in it with me. You know, normally when someone comes on the show, we don't talk about the present right away. The thing I love to ask everyone,

because people know you from your amazing body of work and, you know, especially in our peer group, we've now been on television and whatnot for a long time. So we've had this present. since, you know, we've been blessed to have this presence in people's lives and homes. But I'm always really curious about who you were as a child. And particularly, I'm glad we've begun dropping into our present before we rewind, because you are one of the most intelligent and most thoughtful, most eloquent people that I know.

and I'm really curious if we could kind of rewind the film of your life and go back and like have lunch with eight or nine year old Zach in the backyard were you were you always the kind of kid where people said wow you're so wise for your age or you're so much for your age were you very bookish then or have you evolved into a literary mind oh well that's so like I'm blessing I'm So that's very, so sweet of you to say, all those really kind things, Sophia, thank you. I don't, I mean, if I rewind the tape, I have to say the single most defining experience in my entire life was the death of my father, which happened when I was seven years old.

And I think that was the origin of my personality in a lot of ways, because, to experience such profound loss at such a young age is to be almost instantly jettisoned into an abyss of uh it's somewhere no child should ever have to be emotionally spiritually or psychologically it's a tragedy of life when a child loses a parent such a age and so i think that being cast into that is where I realized from a very early age that I needed to cultivate an inner knowing and I think that that tragedy evolved into the single greatest gift of my experience because it really necessitated me cultivating a a mode of self-understanding and a way to express that as well.

And so, you know, I was really precocious. I was really like, I didn't have any kind of guardrails, punch like our president. I didn't have any guardrails to kind of shape or define what was the best way to communicate. And so it was a real trial and error kind of situation. So I was smart, but I didn't know what to do with it. So I was kind of, my mom always used to say, you're such a know-it-all. You know, I used to think I knew best about everything, and I was really like, I remember. And so I learned over the years how to soften that part and cultivate.

Like, it's all about balance, right? When you're building an understanding of self, right? It's really about kind of integrating and smoothing and that I spent, you know, all those 50 years doing. So it's like, you know, it's an evolution, of course. And so if we really rewind the tape back to then, it was like, I was all over the place, you know. I really had a pretty chaotic childhood just because of that, because of my father's death. My immediate thought is, I mean, age is sadness for little you, but also the shift, if that were to happen to a kid now, the mental health resources, the books to read, the accounts they could even follow.

follow on social media about therapy, self-care, grief process. Correct. Those things didn't exist when you were seven. It's a really good point. How, what did you turn to? You know, was performance or cinema, were those the places you could go to learn how to process feelings? Well, I learned how to process feelings by watching the adults because nobody was coming

to me to say, hey, little guy, little seven-year-old, like, how are you feeling? And again, I don't fault them for this because, as you pointed out, it just wasn't a part of our social fabric yet. So I don't fault anyone in my life for not knowing to do better, but they certainly could have done better. Yes. I remember vividly being in the funeral home where my father was being laid out. And I remember sitting in a chair and no one was paying any attention to me because they were all sort of in their own grief and i remember looking around all these adults so i was looking up and around and i remember like oh because this this is how i learned about death this is death okay what do i do

look at what she's doing oh she seems sad she's crying that seems okay she cry so then i started to really like learn from watching adults. And then that did very much segue eventually into me finding my way into performing. I found my way into acting classes. I found my way into performing in a group in Pittsburgh where I grew up. And that became an outlet for me to understand

that these emotions that I was feeling could be applied to something actually like it was a very bizarre way to arrive at a vocation but that's what happens you know um and so i think my personality really evolved from that and i really understood the value of observing an experience internalizing an experience and then expressing an experience and i learned that both as a person but also as an actor which i couldn't have really identified at such a young age, but I can now identify 40 years later looking back on it. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. Yeah, you just jogged my memory about an experience I had in high school learning that I could express anger on stage because that was not, I was never taught that. It was perfectionism and kindness and politeness. And, you know, I do all the things as an adult to learn to unpack the sort of, nature of people pleasing i think service is great people pleasing less so but yeah acting watching people get to have imperfect emotion i was like oh people get to do that messy interesting yeah and messy is actually what makes life so beautiful and so interesting yeah messiness was not

allowed at home um or or it was i mean home was messy but you know uh in in in the world Like from home to the world, messiness wasn't an option, presentationally. So to learn how to present messiness or chaos or upheaval, those things were valuable for me, as it sounds like they were for you too. I mean, for me, something really transformative was having to be forced to learn to not judge the characters I play. Because the immediate thing is a woman, but I couldn't possibly. But people will hate her.

They will think. Oh, wow. And it's like, well, okay. Interesting. Is she not allowed to have a hard time? Is she not allowed to fail? Is she not allowed to have a bad day? Wow, that's so fascinating.

And it was a really interesting thing for me. Really cool. So interesting, what informs our process, right, in our relationship to our work. But that's fascinating to hear. Yeah. Now, I mean, especially right now, I felt this way prior to the election. and now I'm like, give me, give me someone who's a mess. Like, where is my nurse, Jackie?

I'm ready to go. Great, great, great, yeah. You have played so many iconic roles. I mean, we've talked a bit about what it was like to step into the world of Star Trek. We met, you know, as little's in this business when you were working on heroes. What has been sort of the real racial? of like, because everyone will always say, how do you pick roles? And sometimes you're like, I picked the role I auditioned for and got with.

Exactly, exactly. Like what? When you look back now on those moments in time, how do you reflect on the show, that cinematic universe? What do they mean to you? Both heroes in Star Trek were profoundly meaningful to me, creatively, professionally, personally. They happened within a year of one another. So it went from, you know, it was such a profound transformation of experience for me when I was 29 and 30. I got Heroes in September of 2006 and I got Star Trek in April of 2007, June of 2007, sorry.

I got Star Trek two days after my 30th birthday. So it really, really informed that. seminal moment of my life by just kind of catapulting me into another level of experience at 30 years old. So I look back on them both with tremendous gratitude and fondness, you know, for both what they and brought into my life creatively and professionally, but also personally, the relationships, the friendships, you know. They were both really fun job, staff, and to learn, to have my association with film and television be so rooted in joy with those two shows, was really wonderful and has informed other experiences

that I've had. Before that, my experiences were either insignificant, you know, just learning the ropes, like guest stars here and there and, you know, just trying to cobble something together. The first ongoing TV job I had was on 24, that show. And that was not a very pleasant experience. And so I didn't really feel inspired by it. And it kind of left me with a little bit of uncertainty about, like, what is this going to be like? And then heroes came into my life in a way.

And there were some other things in between there that were really fun and influential as well. Yeah, but I'd say that was the kind of journey of it. Yeah. We'll be back in just a minute after a few words from our favorite sponsors. When, and I don't, you know, you don't obviously have to share, but I know what it's like to work on a set that makes you go, wait, do I want to do this? This feels not nice. Uh-huh. How did you sort of navigate out of an unpleasant recurring experience

so that you could go into a show like Heroes with a new sort of energy? Were there their skills you were learning? You know, I know you've talked so much about your passion for meditation. I'm like, is that when you started meditating? No, no, no, not at all. I didn't start meditation until much, much, much, much later. No, I was learning. You know, that was a real learning, learning time for me.

And to be on 24 and to work in an environment like that with consistency and to have a job and to be able to earn a living as an actor, there was a lot of gratitude that I had at the time and I made the most of the experience. It just wasn't a pleasant environment, you know? And we know from working in television that the person is responsible for the environment on set is the number one on the call sheet. And that was not an environment that was fostered by number one in the call sheet in a generous or compassionate way at all.

And so I learned a lot about power dynamics. I learned a lot about what not to do, actually. And I think sometimes learning what not to do is even more important than learning what to do. And now that I am number one on a call sheet, you know, 20-some years later, I can guarantee you that not one single person who walks on my set will ever have the experience that I had when I walked on the set of 24. Yes. I love that.

And so, you know, I do think that those lessons of how we carry things with us and how we move through the world, get informed by lessons of what not to do. Yeah. I ran my last show in a very specific. way for the exact same reason. Yeah, exactly. And nothing mattered more to me, even though we did one season. Like, for me, it's the best project, not because of the time, but because of the feedback.

And particularly because of the feedback from the men on set who said, wow, this is even really different from me. I'm so grateful to have done this. And I just think there's like, you can either have a ripple effect that's hurtful or ripple effect that's really healing for people. And I love that you're in that. Does being number one on that call sheet on, you know, it's a big show, it's a big network, you know, NBC show.

Does, is there something about that where, you know, the you who was pounding the pavement on all the auditions back in the day, do you go like, wow, shit, I really made it? I've got this thing. Or because you've had so many verticals under the, you know, the, you know, the sort of tent of your career, particularly, you know, your theater work is so amazing. Do you kind of check boxes in each designation of performance? Hmm. No, no, I don't. Really, it's just all, it's a, it's all an evolution. So one thing leads to another. I can't have one experience if I haven't had the experience before it.

And so I never look at it as like, oh, I need to achieve this level of something. It's like, it's all a continuum for me. It's all like, well, where do I go now? That was an incredible experience. And now, or maybe that wasn't such an incredible experience, but where do I go now, you know, whatever the case. Maybe I've been very fortunate. I mean, I do feel very lucky that a lot of the things that I've worked on,

even if they weren't smash hit, you know, projects, were very enjoyable and fulfilling. And so I, you know, I really look at it that way. I really look at my relationship to my work is my work is done when I leave a project, you know and in the case of film and television then a lot of other people come in and start their process and you know shape the the work after I've done my part and so then I can relinquish because it's out of my control so I really try to stay connected to what it is that I have some measurable hand in influencing because then

then I can stay where I am and I don't get pulled ahead of myself or behind myself. That's something I've learned over time as well. But so for me, it's just about what is going to be the most interesting next thing? I don't plot or plan more than to say that I do... I did my first play in New York in 2010.

I did Angels in America. And when I did that, I made a commitment to myself that I would do a play every other season. And pretty much, with the exception of COVID, I've been able to adhere to that commitment. So I really do carve out time in my life to do theater. And that has been the foundation, the basis. And I think in many ways, the catalyst for a career that has now spent, you know, 20 years almost. That's so cool.

Probably more. Jesus more. Nobody, we don't have to count. Yeah, we don't have to count. You know, something I really admire, and I know I mentioned a little bit of this before, but you've shared a lot about meditation. You've also shared a lot with people about how, you know, when you hit a certain level of success, you talked about how drinking got problematic for you.

Oh, for sure. And the reason I sort of lump the two together is because really, Just in what you talked about with work, there's also the personal practice of not, I wouldn't even say of not, of having to learn not to let so much noise and so much expectation completely pull you out of yourself.

You know, I talked about this recently with some of the abuse folks like us face on the internet, and I said, look, no matter how many millions of people come in, there's still just one of me. It is a very strange experience as a human to be sort of expected to output everywhere all the time. How did you kind of shift a relationship with alcohol, which can become so problematic for so many artists, and not just shift it, but find a healthier practice for yourself? Right. Well, yeah, I stopped drinking altogether.

I don't drink at all. and I it's been eight years Wow Never ever miss it Never Can't imagine the circumstance under which I would ever think it would be The right decision to have a drink That could change I suppose

I allow for that to change But I couldn't conceive of it really And I was totally sober for six years And I think you know during that time I faced a lot of aspects of myself that I hadn't allowed space or time for. And that was really challenging. It was really difficult getting sober.

It was really, really hard. But I've never been one to shy away from hard work within myself. You know, I've been in therapy for over 20 years. I've done a lot of... different exploration around spirituality, expanding consciousness. I've worked with plant medicine quite a bit. I've been to Peru numerous times. I've spent a lot of time in the jungles with the Shapibo people there.

So I've learned a lot of lessons by going deep within myself. And I'm now at a place in my life where I'm starting to be able to accumulate the lessons and lay them out in front of me and recognize them for what they are and see how they connect and acknowledge from a place of deep gratitude and humility that it is those lessons that have made me who I am. And a lot of those lessons were hard one, hard learned, you know. But that's sort of how I, how I, how I, approach it. And meditation, I think, I would have to say, has been the single biggest teacher for me. It's absolutely transformed my life in ways that I am always happy to talk about

if people are interested in listening. But I started meditating six years ago. And it came from a place of incredible upheaval and trauma in my life at the end of a long relationship that ended in a particularly brutal way and left me feeling bereft of any sense of direction in my own life. And so I had this meditation practice. I got initiated into transcendental meditation a few months after I got sober in 2016. But I had a very tenuous relationship. with my practice. It's intended to be twice a day, 20 minutes each time. And I would maybe do it once a day a couple times a week. You know, I was not really in any kind of a consistent flow with my practice until this moment of tremendous upheaval. And I had no way, I couldn't feel my way through

the emotional pain and so I just started meditating I said well I have this in my in my toolkit why why not try it and see what happens and so I started meditating and now for six years I have meditated every day twice a day for the most part

you know and it's and from there I found teachers I found people that I really aligned with and identified with and who really inspired me and who really taught me, who really teach me, it's really revolutionized who I am and how I am.

Yeah, I love that. That's amazing. And now for our sponsors. It's not lost on me that you are willing to share parts of yourself when you talk about things like this, you know, to be so beautifully acknowledging, you know, a struggle that so many people in the country and around the world go through when habits become potentially risky, you know, verge on or could be classified as addiction, you know, we're talking about mental health and we're talking about grief and loss and all of these things. And there is a really interesting kind of tightrope that is so important to walk as a public figure, you know, to, you know, to. to not reduce your humanity and become a paper doll version of yourself in the world, but also to not encourage an invasion of privacy.

And I think I'm just so amazed in the way that you do it, and I'm grateful, you know, not just as a person who considers you a friend or the person who's interviewing you today, but, you know, also someone who runs in this business because you, you remind me of how to do it really well. And I think back to 2011, because you were doing Angels in America in 2010, which is a sort of iconic, not just play,

but play for the LGBTQ plus community. And you did the play in 2010, but you came out in 2011. And I'm really curious about your journey and your decision because I've I've just done this, you know, in my own way, myself. Sure, of course. Beautifully as well. I mean, we try.

But I wonder for you, you know, 13 years ago, what was the experience like for you culturally? Because that's also five years before you began your meditation practice. It's five years before you got sober. You know, I just wonder in the kind of tapestry of your life. life, how that experience affected you in your journey? Right. I made a promise to myself when I became famous

that I would not adjust the way I live my life in the face of that reality. And I've pretty much been able to adhere to that. You know, I've pretty much been able to cultivate a life for myself, which recognizes the fact that I am very, very, very human. And I'm very, very, very flawed. And I have come to cultivate compassion for myself, an acceptance of myself, and a generosity to myself, which is not informed by whether or not I'm famous. And so those are the things that guide me. And so in talking about it, I feel like we are all in this together.

Yes. And I think it's never been more important to realize that than it is right now. And so if anything that I've gone through experienced resonates for someone or makes someone feel seen or allows someone to access or acknowledge some part of themselves that they previously hadn't been able to access or acknowledge, then that's part of my. then that's part of my purpose. That's part of why I'm in the position that I've in to be able to have this conversation with you that a lot of people will listen to if they want to. So I see it contextualized in that way.

And so for me, those kinds of conversations are what life is about. Whether you're famous or not, we should be having them. And I don't want to let the fact that I happen to be a public figure. diminish my capacity to have those conversations or the experiences of life that I want to have as well.

So I really just try to live a life that is aligned with my understanding of who I am. And my understanding of who I am, as I mentioned before, is not something that I take for granted and it's not something that I allow to be dictated to me. It's something that I have worked long and very hard

to define for myself. And so that's how I try to move through the world. And I've had incredibly valuable and rich experiences as a result. And so I just have taken that as an indication that I should just keep doing what I've been doing because it's allowed me to arrive at a place where I feel really grateful. So coming out for me was one of those times where I just, I've told the story many times. So anybody that is interested in my coming out can probably just Google it. And there's many interviews about it and many, you know, articles and podcasts.

I've talked about it a lot. But, you know, the thing that I can acknowledge in this conversation that's relevant to what we're talking about is that it was one of those times where I didn't look. outside of myself for guidance, I looked inside myself for guidance. And I, and I, and even though I was still drinking and I wasn't yet meditating, I still was attuned enough with an inner knowing that made that decision completely unambivalent and completely unambiguous. I didn't need anybody's help or guidance. And I didn't tell anybody that I was going to come out publicly. I did it on my own terms, in my own time, in my own way. And then after that, I told people, oh, by the way, I came out in that interview that I gave for New York Magazine. You know, I really asked,

um, of myself, what is the best path here? And I, and I trusted the answer. Um, and that's a, that's a, a notion that I have really worked to implement in many different ways. Yeah. of my life. I also think there's a really profound shift that happens as an individual when you really, really listen to what your soul is telling you, no matter what the rest of the noise in the world around you is.

That's exactly right. Yeah. And that was an early lesson for me in my career that helped me solidify that notion about what you just said. I love that. I think it's so beautiful. And I don't think it's an accident. You know, I don't want to sound like the most L.A. person and, like, do the woo-woo thing.

But I think it's really pretty profound when you look at the journey of your career and your life and your self-exploration that the job you are currently doing really revolving. really revolves around neurology like the inner workings of the brain but you address a lot of that's it it's consciousness Oliver Sacks was you know the character that I play

is based on a real life person Oliver Sacks who was a renowned neurologist and prolific author and someone who was voraciously curious about the human experiences as it relates to consciousness which is really the final front

of the human experience. And I agree with you. I think there is no mistake. And why not get woo-woo? Honestly? Okay, great. If you really zoom out and look at the mystery of life, there is an element of it that cannot be explained by any way other than an expression of cosmic nature.

And I think the more that I and my own experience have opened to that, and allowed for that in my life, the miracles just keep revealing themselves, you know? And that is, to me, become a significant life's purpose, making space for those miracles and making space for cosmic nature. Yes. Okay. So I have a question because the man you play, as you mentioned, you know, for the folks at home, a wonderful person to research. Or in their cars. Or in their cars, yes.

Well, yeah, if you're going to Google him and do some research, please do him when not driving. Yeah, yeah. But, you know, you do you. But I'm so curious about this because we've talked about the show, but I realized I haven't asked you this question even off line. Did you bring this project to the network? No. No.

I was curious if you developed it. because of all your study. No. So how did it find you? How did it happen? I was doing a play in London and I was coming to the end of my run. And so it was time to consider what was next and was having those conversations with my agents and my managers. And they came to me with this project.

And I was originally a little unsure if I wanted to go. right go into a network t i don't know i just was like is this what is this what we're doing now like this was kind of the height of the success of shows like white lotus and succession these zeitgeisty shows these HBO shows that were like you know on HBO or streamers or you know just of course and so i thought like is the network path the way to go um but i was really strongly advised to consider it and so i did and i read the script which was very well written and then i tried to say no and my team was like I really was like

I don't know guys I'm not sure this is for me I'm not sure it's the right time basically the right fit at the right time and they really encouraged me to reconsider and part of that reconsideration was they said just take a meeting with a creative team and see how you feel you know they're really interested in you for this

and so I did I met with Michael Grassie or showrunner and one of the most delightful humans and so smart and at the end that Zoom, I was like, oh, I had to do this, pilot. I just knew from the alchemy of our chemistry, he was so just exactly the kind of collaborator that I want. The way he talked about it, the way that he asked me questions, I just felt like, oh, this is going to be a really rich collaboration. And so I said, yes. And then it was kind of a miracle that the show went from pilot to series,

because we did the pilot and then the strikes happened. And in the middle of the strike, Susan Rovner, who was running NBC left and Lisa Katz came in and Donna Langley got promoted and we all thought like, oh, well, you know, that's never a good sign in the middle of a, you know, a decision-making period when like a regime change happens at the executive level, you kind of just figure like all the old stuff is going to get thrown out with the old administration. Seems fitting. But, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, but, it. It wasn't the case. They really stayed committed to the show and they really invested in it and they picked it up to series and they've been incredible partners and I just feel really grateful. And I hope we get to keep telling these stories because it's been a real joy and honoring Oliver Sacks and working with this incredible cast of actors on the show and Michael Grassi and all the wonderful directors and producers. I mean, it's just a really good vibe. And so I hope we get to keep doing it. But we'll see. We don't know yet. I hope so too. I really love it. Thanks. I really do. What do you feel like? Obviously, it was a tumultuous time between pilot and series. And God, the stress of that. But now that you're in it, you know, what do you think the things are that you've discovered about your character? Are there things when you get the next script for the next episode? You really just feel like, God, I relate to this person.

I relate to a lot about this character, actually. Yeah. I would say, I mean, there are so many parallels in this show that are just so insane. I mean, just, I've told this story before as well, but one example is that, you know, Heroes, which we've identified as the kind of most significant job in terms of influencing my career trajectory. The whole catalyst of Heroes is that there's a solar eclipse. and that the solar eclipse awakens people to this power within themselves

and suddenly they realize that they're you know they're called to something much bigger and that's the whole origin of the story of heroes which was on NBC right so this is my first return to NBC in 15 years I did another limited series for NBC in the middle there but like in terms of a series and now a series that I am leading

I come back to the place where it all all began 15 years later. And we started filming Brilliant Minds on April 8th, which was the day of the solar eclipse. Wow. So like these kinds of through line, full circle moments for me, cannot be ignored. Yeah.

And so there's a lot of those little things in the writing of the show. Like, for example, I mean, a big thrust of the show is the relationship between the character I play all over Wolf and his mother, played by Donna Murphy. And I had a very complicated relationship with my own mother. And the fact that that is at the center of the show and that I'm processing and working through all of this stuff that, you know, I can really deeply relate to.

And then on top of that, there's this episode in the show where my character is obsessed with ferns and plant life as Oliver Sacks in real life. in real life was as well. And so there's an episode where he's trying to bring this fern back to life. And he's carrying it into the hospital and everybody's sort of talking about his fern. And he says, well, this is, and he's name, he names his plants. And Michael Grassy could never have known this. But when I was a child, I had an imaginary friend.

And my imaginary friend's name was Longo. and Longo I would blame sometimes for things that if like my mom found something like who ate all this you know candy or something I'd be like a little longer did it you know I would like have this kind of relationship where I would try to implicate him as the fall guy for things that I did wrong and my mother to her great creative credit combated that tendency in me by creating her own imaginary friend who was Longo's mother. So my mother then said, well, I just talked to Longo's mother. And so she created this whole kind of network of like accountability, basically,

within this fantasy of my childhood. And Longo's mother's name was Gertrude. And so whenever I'd be like, Longo did it, she'd be like, well, I just talked to Gertrude, and Gertrude told me that's not true. So it was this kind of, and also Gertrude would factor in other ways. Like it wasn't always just to kind of like hold me accountable. But however, when I read this script for the show,

this one episode where I'm carrying this turn around tonight, and I walk in and all my interns are standing are looking at me and they're like, what is that? And I'm like, oh, well, this is Gertrude. This is my firm. So just like these little Easter eggs, you know, these little things that are like, oh, wow, like I can relate to this character

on levels that no audience member would ever know about or need to know about. But my connection to the character is informed so much more richly and deeply because of that memory that I have about my own mother, which then informs the relationship that my character has with his mother on the show. So those kinds of things, I mean, that's just one example of dozens of examples, where it feels like the nature of this work and the nature of this show and what Michael is writing, what I am at this point in my life meant to be exploring as an actor,

are just all there for the picking if I'm looking for them. and if I'm tuned into them. And that kind of attunement is the very thing that my meditation practice has encouraged me and taught me how to cultivate and nurture and amplify in my own life. So I'm much more tuned to that than I would have been if I haven't been on this journey of meditation. Just the sort of concentric circles of it all. It's so beautiful. Yeah, it's really, yeah.

It's undeniable when you can. can feel that sort of sparkle. You know, there's something really to it. Oh, I just love it so much. What then, you know, it seems like, sounds like you are in such a beautiful place personally. What, when you kind of look at your, the landscape of your life, maybe what you think about for the next year, what feels like your work in progress? Well, as of last Wednesday, it all became a work in progress for all of us.

So I think a lot remains to be seen with regard to what this country is going to look like in a few months. To me, meditation has never been more important than it is right now. I'm certainly really doubling down on that aspect of my life. I'm always a work in progress. I mean, I just feel like life is being a work in progress. Life is, when I look at the older people in my life, now that I'm sort of in the midpoint-ish, you know, and I look at the people who are closer to the end,

it's the people that I can say moved through their experience of life with curiosity, with openness, with compassion both for themselves and for others, with clarity of who they are, and confidence in expressing who they are, and never allowing circumstance to define who they are. Those are the people that in their 70s and 80s and 90s, I say, that's the kind of life that I want to live.

And so then I say, well, what do they all have in common? It's those people who are still vital, who are still mobile, who are still engaged in the world, who aren't atrophied or, you know, cricked up or, you know, hunched over, you know, it's like the people who stop, it's the people who stop caring, it's the people who stop learning, it's the people who stop thinking and feeling.

Those are the people who start to, I think, kind of. And of course, anything can happen. You know, I'm grateful and blessed every day that I'm healthy and that I'm, you know, vital in the world. we never know when that could change for any of us. But for as long as I am, vital and able-bodied and connected, my goal is to allow that to me my guiding principle and see how far it gets me

because those are the people in my life who have gotten the farthest, who are now in their late 70s, 80s, and 90s, who still find joy in everything that they experience or at least most of what they experience. And when they don't find joy, they find compassion. I love that oh I love it I just adore you thank you for this today I'm so glad to see you I'm so grateful we got to do this and I know that these are troubling times these are uncertain times and I think to show up for one another and to show up with one another is really all we can ask for

so I appreciate you asking me to show up and I'm glad I did and I can't wait to see you again soon This is an I-Heart podcast.