Drama Queens - Zoe Lister-Jones

Episode Date: April 29, 2026

What do you wear to the end of the world? Actress, writer and producer Zoe Lister-Jones joins Sophia to unpack all the important, poignant and hilarious questions of the day! Everything's on the table -- from queerness to GMOs to the right to be unapologetically horny. It’s funny, unfiltered, and as real as it gets, including the very personal act that Zoe considers to be her biggest work in progress."The Miniature Wife" as well as Zoe's acclaimed series "Slip" are both now on Peacock.See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, everyone. It's Sophia. Welcome to Work in Progress. Welcome back to Work in Progress. My whip smarties today. Oh my God, are we joined by a Smarty indeed. She is a friend of the pod.

She is a friend of mine and truly an artist that I admire so much. Zoe Lister Jones is back to talk with us about life. and it's lessons and we laugh an awful lot and we get to unpack some of the brilliant films she's made, shows she's made, and her new one, The Miniature Wife, which is streaming on Peacock now. Zoe is one of my favorite artists because she has managed to spend the past decade truly redefining what it means to be a multi-hyphenate in this industry. She writes, directs, and stars in incredibly intimate and fearless stories that explore the complexities of identity and personal ethics. And she might be so incredible

at this because she was raised in a family of artists. And it might just be because she's truly one of the most brilliant women in my peer group. She really inspires me to ask big questions about life, how we navigate desire, how we navigate love, how we navigate showing up for others without losing ourselves. How do we figure out who we are in a world that constantly asks us to perform and often rewards us for doing that in ways that means we abandon bits of ourselves? I think what makes Zoe such a fascinating woman to watch is that she really is a living, breathing character study of her own authenticity and inspires the rest of us to lean into that for ourselves too.

Let's get into all the things with our dear Zoe Lister Jones. I'm so excited to get to talk to you about all the things. Me too. What is up? I mean, I have all the questions I ask people that you've been on the show before. So I guess we have to figure out what bears repeating for new friends. I know. I know we've talked about this, but we'll dive in with a go back.

to catch up. Yeah. You grew up in Brooklyn. Yeah. Your parents were artists. You know, you grew up really surrounded by so much creative energy. When you think about that from where you are as an artist, director, producer, writer today, if you look back at your childhood at eight or nine, what are the immediate things that zing for you as like, oh, I see, I see how the woman I am today was that little girl. I mean, my mom was like, I mean, she continues to be, but she taught me so much about the male gaze as it pertained to, like, media and art and film.

Say more. Like, it was sort of imprinted into me at a very young age, whether that was conscious or not, but I think it was pretty conscious on her part. And it was like, I think she just looked at everything through a, like, a lens, a sort of feminist lens that was, that then just became, you know, her eyes became my eyes, like, in that way. And I think that influenced my work so much. Yeah. And not only, like, my work, but also the process in making my work because she was in, like, an all-women film. collective in the 70s. No way.

Called real feelings, but spelled R-E-E-L. And I like had kind of forgotten that she was a part of that. There was a photo of like 13 women on a beach and they're all in wedding dresses and that was like their photo. I mean, ironically, in wedding dresses in the 70s. And so like that photo was kind of part of my memory bank of childhood, but it wasn't super frontal and then when I directed my first film, Band-Aid, I decided to make it with a crew made up entirely of women. And again, like, my mom reminded me of her feminist filmmaking

collective. And I was like, right, like the influence is just now so kind of cellular that it's unconscious how much I am, you know, doing that she sort of laid the groundwork for. Totally. It's interesting. You know, my mom was not an artist. My mom, you know, had her various jobs and then ran my dad's business, which is interesting because she was sort of the business brain behind his artistry. Oh, interesting. But she was very resolute about the education I was to get, the work I was to do. You know, my mom was very much the one that was like, oh, you don't rely on a man for money. You make your own money. You make your own money. you have your own career, you do your own thing, and then having gone to an all-girls school, I feel that cellular immersion you're talking about because it has never occurred to me

to not participate in a conversation or raise my hand to offer an answer when a question is asked because I grew up exclusively in rooms of women who were contributing. And I have seen in my career that my, creativity or verboseness or thoughtfulness that I believe is additive to a conversation can be very off-putting to certain men.

And I'm like, oh, this is so weird because I didn't grow up with this. Yeah. What is this? And to certain women. I mean, like, I think, you know, it's like, unfortunately, there's a lot of internalized misogyny across the board. There really is so much, and it's really making a comeback with branding. and I don't like it.

It's really wild. And I am, you know, I always just so admire the way that you use your voice. And I think something that my mom always taught me was that like the personal is political and vice versa. And you embody that, you know, and I try to embody that as best I can. You sweet soul. And so I just, I love, I love, yeah, I just, I love how an unobody apologetic you are and I'm so grateful to your mom. Honestly, same and same.

We need to take our moms on a date. We should. Like fully. They would have so much fun. Also, so weird, but the other day, I was just in L.A. for a quick shoot for something. And I was driving down, I was on fountain. You know, it dead ends into Los Yenaga, but I was going east. and as I'm driving down Fountain, a pack of women in white dresses and veils, like 11 of them.

I counted. I was like, what's going on? We're coming down Fountain and turning down whatever street is right after Sweetser. And I was like, oh my, and I was in the left lane so I couldn't make a right. And all I wanted was to turn around and pull over and be like, sorry, you're clearly doing something, but what are you doing? I just need to know what you're all doing, like a, like the reporter in me from journalism school is just she's impossible to smother. I try sometimes. But clearly, you know from my social media, I cannot. And I was like, what are they doing? And then you just described your mom's photograph. That's actually bone chilling. And that's so weird to me. That's really crazy. Like in some, in some weird fold of the universe, like, I just saw that

pack of women walking through Los Angeles together. I'm obsessed. with whatever just whatever time space continuum collapsed to make that happen. I love it. I love it. I love that. I mean, at this moment, I feel like audacious acts of like joy and resistance, whatever that was, I'm just going to project that onto that group of women in wedding dresses are like what we need. It's what's going to keep us going.

I totally agree. And it's like, I don't know, I'm just kind of leaning into things. I'm letting myself lay in bed when I'm so depressed by the state of the world. And then I'm like, all right, bitch, get up, do something, put on an outfit. What do you wear for the end of the world? I don't know. Also, give yourself joy and then dive into the Zoom, the organizing, whatever it is. But I'm, I don't know.

I'm sort of remembering that I'm reminding myself that if all we do is, the heavy side of the work and we don't do the joyful side of the work, we miss it. And you inspire me in that way so much. You always, when you share something, the reflections are so thoughtful. The way you write about the state of the world is so generous and considered and razor, I mean, with such a razor sharp honesty. And then you're also like going to a thing in the most avant-garde outfit and I'm like, yeah, we need that. Wear the dress. What if the world ended tomorrow and you never wore it and it sat in your closet with a tag on

it and you remember me to play while I work? You remember me? You remember me. I like you remember me. You remember me. I do remember you. Well, I think we remember each other and that's the beauty of it because it is like, and thank you, that means so much to me.

And I think what we wear to the revolution is key. I'm into it. Like I feel like there's an idea here we should noodle on for a movie. Yes. Also, because every project you do, I'm like, how am I not doing this with you? I know. Also, it's yours and it should be. You are so brilliant.

And I'm like, can I come play? You can. I'm ready. When we did Wayne's World, for those listening, and we did it all queer women and non-binary. And it was a live thing. Live reading of Wayne's World. Yes. In a theater in Los Angeles, we all sat, you know, Last Supper style with our music stands,

and we performed the play to a packed house, just setting the scene for the listeners at home. And it was the most fun thing ever. It was so fun. That's the only time that we've actually, like, worked together. But I was so excited when you said yes. We had the best time. And there are moments and bless the person that you hired to shoot the photos of that night. because there's moments, obviously, as you're performing, things happen live.

And we'd rehearsed it, but it was a short turnaround, as those things tend to be. And there were moments you and I sat next to each other performing where I would make you laugh and you'd look at me or you'd do something so funny and I'd double over because I hadn't seen you do it up close yet. And it was happening in real time. And I have those photos and I just cherish. them. Me too. They're so great.

It was such a, it was really, I mean, those moments that are just like sort of pure play are so rare. Yeah. And I cherish them and I try to create them, but they, you know, they're hard to come by, unfortunately. But that's what's so fascinating to me about you, you know. I will say, and like, I think part of growing up is admitting what you know and what you don't know.

I have a million ideas all the time, and I struggle to know what the next step is sometimes to execute on them. Clearly, I have also since learned that's a very common thing for masking overachieving women with ADHD. I'm like, oh, it's not a personal moral failing. It doesn't mean I'm a waste of a human life. Interesting. Okay. But you are such a generative creative. And I think it's often really hard for people to be purely creative and great.

at the execution. So how have you figured that out for yourself? Is it something you learned by watching your mom and then you figured out how to do? Or has there been kind of a, I don't want to say it's a formula or a protocol necessarily, but did you kind of figure out how to hack a version of a creative formula and then continue to follow it? I mean, first of all, thank you. That's also really, I love coming on this podcast. I'm affirmed moment to moment, and it feels so good. I'm so happy.

So I love you. And I mean, I think it was interesting. Like the household I grew up in, both my mom and my dad are artists. And my dad also influenced me not to put him in the shadows, but you know, we like to shout out. You're like, no, dads are great. Dads are cool.

Some men are cool. But they were both artists. my mom was a video or as my dad was a conceptual photographer. And both of these mediums are not easily commodifiable. So they were making art, but I saw how difficult it was to also like make a living. And so I think like in terms of being generative, that actually was something that I was like,

I must be generative to live. Otherwise, because I had witnessed so firsthand that like if art making, at least for my parents, like their art making then had to take a back seat to the jobs they had to get to make money. And it and not only does that take like the time and energy away from your art, but I think it also like just creates a sort of heartache that I saw and felt and wanted to avoid. I'm generally trying to avoid heartache and you know it's hard to avoid. But in the areas that we can. So like I think I learned early that that was something that I wanted to really get good at

was like completing a project, seeing it to its fruition. And my ex-husband and I made like sort of like super micro-budget indies. in the beginning, like in our 20s. And that was like a huge learning experience about how to make things for little, but with, you know, like a good enough production value

and to get the community involved, which was also just so much fun to just like get the friends that I loved who were working in various departments or actors. And then those projects, you know, built momentum where then I was, given more opportunities to create things. But it's an interesting thing, I will say, and I've been thinking about this recently,

like it's really good to be like process and product oriented. But sometimes if you get to product oriented, I think especially as a woman, like I have found myself in certain situations like abandoning my instincts. Because I'm just like, we got to get this thing done, come hell or high water. And when many cooks are in the kitchen, you know, when you move out of the sort of micro budget world and cooks are in the kitchen, that can sometimes be not an asset. You know, like, sometimes it is time to be like, I'm not going to make this under these conditions or with these limitations. Artistically, that's not aligned with me. So it's just like a learning curve, you know, as you make more things to be like, this is what is in alignment with.

with me and this is what is not in alignment with me. But it's a weird time in the industry. So, you know, like, getting shit done takes a little extra muscle now, for sure. Totally. And now for our sponsors. What keeps you hopeful in the face of how weird things are? Because, you know, I can't help but think when you talk about, for example, watching your parents do what they loved and then having to do things. things they loved less because we live in a world that requires us to do things like pay our rent

and our phone bills. You know, I think about how much harder it is now that private equities bought up all the houses and people can't afford them anymore, that they've bought up all the film studios and now we're struggling to have an industry anymore because someone's looking at a P&L and they think that that's all that matters. Like, how do you, when you zoom out to 30,000 feet as the accomplished filmmaker that you are, how do you look at the landscape and stay hopeful? What do you think is the future of it?

Oh, gosh. I don't know. Just a casual question for you. What's the future of the industry and the world? You're like, actually, I have a plan. I've got it right. up here. I'll say like the spiritual work I'm doing right now is to surrender to the now and try to not future trip and to actually accept the reality that I have no control over what the future holds.

Great. So the key to the future is to stop thinking about it. I mean, it's like, I think it's exactly what probably we both do, you know? It's like staying as like typically engaged as you can while still really like taking care of yourself. And that bleeds into the creative life too. Like I think as I've gotten older, of course I'm only in my 20s, but as I've gotten older, like I, like what you were saying, I'm prioritizing rest in a really different way. I'm probably just because I'm tired. But I also think I understand more the need to.

to rest in order to engage. Yes. And like I think that is what gives me hope. And I will say also like, Gen Z gives me hope. Like I really, I like look to that generation. I learn a lot from them. And I think like, you know, every generation, we can talk shit about every generation. You know what I mean?

But I think that there's like a level of engagement that feels engagement and sort of thoughtfulness in the people that I know who are like doing the work that I don't know. It just feels inspired and inspiring to me. What gives you hope? You know, we do. Women do. The leadership of folks that seem more than the rest of us, you know, people who have a non-binary existence in their bodies. I think the intense backlash against women first that's coming from the right is because we've had a generation of pseudo equality and rather than motivating the system of patriarchy to become better, it's motivating

it to try to hurt us because we've done more with less. And I think it's actually why trans and non-binary people are at the center of that fight and being assaulted in the ways that they are, because the freedom it requires a human being to not only see, but embody in a cellular way, to exist past a binary or a societal prescription for what they should do. And they say, you can do whatever you'd like, but I'm going to do everything I believe I can do. I'm going to be everything I know myself to be. It is such a radical upset to a system that succeeds on the shrinking of people and feeding off of them rather than the expansion of people and allowing them to, flourish. And I watch our trans friends, our non-binary friends, stand so resolutely in their identities,

because both they are doing the radical act of acknowledging their own worth, and by acknowledging their worth, they're demanding that we acknowledge the worth of other people. To do that in the year 2026 when they are being, when the people with the least power are being attacked by the people with the most wealth and power in the world. So people who are willing to stand against that kind of power and influence inspire me. You know, yes, in the same way that I like to be everyone's most, affirming cheerleader on the internet because it's a cesspool. So I like to leave nice comments for everyone I know and tell all my friends they're hot. I like to look at what people do and be

inspired. Like I think about when I was going over filmography stuff for today, I was like, oh my God, duh, I forgot about consumed. Like you and Daryl made that movie in 2015. And I was thinking, oh my god you made a dramatic thriller about an issue we're talking about now in these crazy ways about the complex world of GMOs you could have made a documentary but you made it a narrative story because you wanted it to register in a different way and over 10 years ago you were talking about the future of food and climate but nobody felt like you were smacking them in the face about a climate movie you know what I mean and like that's why that's what you're talking about. fucking radical.

And not just rad, like California term. I mean, radical in terms of subversive to an industry. And like, I don't know, reflecting on that 10 years ago, how do you think about the approach and the inspiration in the first place knowing where we are now, you know, with this upside down kookiness about like red dye but not chemicals being allowed that used to be banned by the EPA? Like, what the fuck? I know. It's, I mean, making that movie was so challenging in so many ways.

Was it? Yes. And like, you know, Monsanto has now been like subsumed by Bayer. So it's sort of an invisible, really nefarious agent in destroying our climate and our food and our soil and all these things. And those forces are much more powerful than I think I understood. then I think Daryl or I understood at the time of making it. You know, like you go to a film festival and the sponsor is Coca-Cola, you don't think about those things until you have a film that's sort of poking the bear of it. Yeah.

So I think it was challenging in some ways. It's also, I think when you, it's interesting because it really dropped us into the center of a wellness movement that at the time was, Maha didn't exist, right? But a lot of that community has now horseshoeed into Maha. And so I feel really turned upside down. Yeah. Because, as you said, like the focus on humanity and climate and environmentalism and equity and social justice that felt woven into the fact.

of that community is now, to me, just upside down because the integrity is, and obviously that's not the community as a whole, but just I think what Maha has chosen to take from that and then not chosen, as you said. It's figuring out the grift, right? Like, conspiracy theories work because there's a kernel of truth at the center and then they build a fantasy of fallacy around. it. Fantasy of fallacy. I just came up with that on the flag. Like the name of your memoir?

Honestly, not known. And what's fascinating to me, even when you take something as horrific as what we've seen in the half of the trove of the Epstein files we have, is you realize that the craziness of Q&on and 4chan and, you know, what started on backslash poll was started by Jeffrey Epstein and Steve Bannon. Like, they told the kernel of truth. about the horrific thing they were doing, and then they dressed it up in something crazy,

and then they projected it onto the people trying to stop them from doing it. Right. That broke my brain. It breaks my brain. But when you realize Maha is the same, you know, when you realize that the same people who called Michelle Obama a communist for trying to feed children, more vegetables and school lunches,

are now rallying against science, but supporting people that are actively trying to poison them on the behalf of their billionaire donors, you go like, wait a second. But I think part of the reason I got excited to revisit consumed, and this no shock in an ADHD brain is a very long way to get us back to what makes me hopeful. It's like when we think about Gen Z, whether they, and this is not to approve or whatever, this is just to say like the through line that excites me whether you have hyper-conservative genzy voters or hyper-liberal genzy voters the thing they all care most about statistically is climate

I know they actually agree on that because we should and that makes me feel excited that makes me feel hopeful that makes me feel like we can unpack the grift that has grifted logical movements because they were logical and working. I think we can unpack it and hopefully reclaim the thing we should all care about, which is conserving this planet that we live on so that we might, I don't know, keep living without being poisoned or getting cancer or whatever. And so I don't know. It makes me in the same ways that I am overwhelmed by how crazy it is.

I feel hopeful that there are still things people agree. on now. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And I think, I mean, in some ways, my hope lies in the belief that sometimes it has to get really bad for it to get better. Yeah. And that I think there's something a foot about the current state of affairs in the world while it's like really divisive. and horrific, that a lot is being uncovered and exposed. And it can be really, like, dizzying, you know, even for people who have, like, ten toes down on their values. It's so dizzying.

But I think that kind of exposure, I hope that ultimately it will be, like, a unifying force. and that like humanity and a love of just being human will prevail rather than the grift, you know, because the grift, like, it is, for all of the memes I read, you know, that like show up with my algorithm, but like it is kind of textbook narcissistic abuse, right? It's like you are the perpetrator and you put your, you sort of project your perpetration onto other people so that then they're like dizzyed and don't know who's accountable or how to hold anyone accountable. Yes.

And that's exactly what has happened. But it feels now that at least with like the Epstein files, some of that is being revealed, like what you said. Yeah. And that sort of seeing like the interconnectedness of all of the oppressive forces is like creating just a larger picture. I hope for people. It's also just crazy to me.

And listen, I know we're both women who've always been encouraged to stand in our power, voice our opinion, be educated. Like, you are a person like me who wants to do homework every day about the world, which I love. I get that that's not everybody's bag, but I think when it is and you understand how to unpack men as a system, you know, as patriarchy, how to unpack internalized misogyny,

how to figure out actually the incredible power of women to tell stories about them. I mean, you know, what you did with Slipp, like it's sort of surreal to move through the world, I think, as women who've sort of seen behind the curtain, also to get divorced, also to come out. Totally. I don't think there's an accident there where you go like,

oh, the dynamic I was told was for me actually has never been good for me. Yeah. It's put me in the position of employee, not partner. How do you think that journey for you as an individual has influenced your storytelling? Because even when I think about what you did with Slip, and I'll let you talk to the folks at home about the story, but like it isn't lost on me that you were the first women in history to have written, directed, and starred in every single episode of a season of television.

Like the first in our age bracket? Like what? And so I realize as far as we've come, we're still making firsts in our generation. So I guess I just wonder how from the personal to professional you square the journey and then figure out how to storytell out of it. I mean, well, Slip was interesting. It was sort of, it sort of bridged my coming out journey in terms of the personal and the professional parallels. But basically the story is a woman who is in a marriage that is feeling really stagnant and sleeps with someone one night in a sort of like fit of despair. and wakes up the next morning married to him.

And then over the course of the series, she learns that through orgasm, she's being teleported to parallel universes. I love it so much. And so every episode, like the central setpiece is her orgasm. And it catapults her into a different life that she's living with a different person. And, you know, she's with a woman. She's with like really a variety of people. Yeah.

Which I think was, you know, it does sort of mirror the journey of queerness where you're like, when you're especially later in life, queer is like you and I, that like we, yeah, that it's a process, obviously that unfolds. Yeah. And for me it was like, who am I? Like there are all these different versions of me that exist simultaneously. And I, you know, narratively told that as parallel universes. But I think in every person there are so many different selves. Yes.

And how we honor each of those selves and explore those selves was really interesting to me. And then through the lens of like female sexual pleasure, which felt relatively untapped, you know. Yeah. And still so taboo. Yeah. Yeah. And I had like, I remember when, when 50 Shades of Gray came out as a book, everywhere I went, there was a woman who's, like face was like pressed into the pages. And I was like, oh, this is, um, there is a collective

hunger among women, uh, for sexually explicit material that like is also woven into a story. But like, we've been so historically deprived of being able to just be unapologetically horny. You know what I mean? And so I wanted to make a horny show, too. Like that could turn women and men and non-binary folk on, you know? It got nominated for two Independent Spirit Awards, which was a dream come true for best new TV show and best actress and or its actor. They actually don't gender that category of the indie spirits, which I love. And it was my baby, but it was also so exciting to me that something like that could exist in the world.

And it felt like there was maybe a shift in the ability to portray women not only as objects of desire, but as like agents of it. And now Slip is streaming on Peacock for new audiences to discover. We'll be back in just a minute. But here's a word from our sponsors. Moving into the miniature wife, which for our friends at home is streaming on Peacock now. You need to watch it. It's really fucking funny. Like, how do all of those experiences from moving up the ranks of indie filmmaking to having this gorgeous success and heartache together with a series like that?

How do you kind of continue taking risks and also insulate yourself a little bit as an artist for the next thing? Yeah. I mean, I'll say that, like, miniature wife, I'm solely asking. acting in it, which is always a gift, you know, as a person who wears a lot of hats. I was wondering if that felt like a relief a little bit just to show up and be an actor and not have to make 47 other decisions throughout the day. It is so much fun. And it's Elizabeth Banks and Matthew McFaddean play the central couple in it.

And they're both just like unbelievable actors. Most of my scenes were with Matthew. And so to just like show up and like what we were talking about before, just like play. You know, just like absolutely play. And the show is so much fun because it's so playful. Like it's about a man who drinks his wife. So it's like, honey, I shrunk the wife. But it's about, you know, power dynamics in a relationship.

So it's also very relatable. But it's through this sort of escapist, fantastical lens. And so showing up on set, like tonally, it was such an opportunity to just be really playful. And that was so much fun. But I'm also like developing a TV show. and developing a movie. And so, like, it was really nice to be able to do all of those things, but to get to, like, go just shoot something and distract myself from that.

And it shot in Canada, and it shot right when Trump was inaugurated. So it was, like, a sort of perfect escape route. Yeah. But, but, yeah, I mean, I think it's so important. like there are so many opportunities for heartache in a life, you know, like that, and that they're just that, they're opportunities. Like, there are also opportunities to learn so much about yourself and to learn about what you want to do next and to learn about like your fortitude, too.

Like, that's not going to, that's not going to stop me, you know. Yeah. I do think when, you know, you've put your heart. and soul into something and it partially works or works and then doesn't or whatever can happen to us in the space of it. Yeah, throwing yourself into other things that are just fun is so important. And it's really interesting after the last show that I had worked on and produced, which we loved, but just all the timing was off. You know, when you realize like, oh God, it's like being, It's like being two beats off the clap.

It's just so terrible. You're like, this would have worked before or later, but not now. Yes. Like, I gave myself a homework assignment to really just go and have fun. And to produce a comedy about a mother and daughter that I did with Warren Holly to go and do this other great comedy that I just did with Jerry O'Connell. Like, things that are, he's a perfect human. He's the perfect. Like, things truly just for fun.

Even going and like in between all the movies going back and forth to Grays, like I just get to go have a good time. I literally get to go stir the pot and then be like a med student. And I needed that a little bit. I needed to not have the whole weight of something on me. I needed to go have a really fucking good time as an actor with people who I adore and hear 90s rom-com stories from Lauren and like go and just shoot. the shit, you know, between scenes with Ellen Pompeo. Like, that's my girl. She reminds me of, she has the same kind of energy of like all my cousins from New York

that I'm just obsessed with. And like, the last sort of stint for me has reminded me why I love our job so much and how much fun I have doing it. And now I'm like, okay, I think I'm ready to go create something. Yes. Great. Yeah. But I needed to not put that pressure on my stuff.

for a beat and just love it. No, unfortunately, I don't think, like, creativity thrives under pressure. Mine sure is she doesn't. It thrives in, like, the liminal spaces, you know? It thrives when you wake up or when you're in the shower or, you know, like, that's when I always get my ideas. It's like when I actually give my brain permission to turn off, which I think goes back to, like, the idea of surrender.

Like, when you can kind of just surrender and try to be present, that's when I think, think it flows. Yeah, I love that. Well, maybe it's surrender. Maybe it's something else, but when you think about this moment for you, whether it's, you know, in your own personhood or or as an artist or a creator, like on any level, what feels like your work in progress? Oh, my God. There is so much work in progress at the moment. It's solving the crisis of the film industry, darling. I mean, my work in progress at the moment is

myself. It's like it's a really corny and vague answer, but like acts of self-love, like esteemable acts that build self-esteem, not esteem based on external validation. That is a work in progress.

And I am working it, but it's, It's really a wild thing, I think, you know, when you start to really, when I start to really pay attention to how much negative self-talk exists in a day, that I have just been kind of like accepting as the norm until I put a microscope on it. That's like my current work in progress. Obviously, you know, I also don't want to be like too navel-gazy in a moment that requires a lot of engagement. So like I think it is personal and spiritual surrender, but like civic engagement.

It kind of has to be all of it, right? Yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's like, that's the journey. That's the current journey. Yeah. Yeah. I feel that.

I feel that. And figuring out, figuring out what navel gazing as a phrase is actually quite necessary for growth. And then also when to just stop and do other things. You know, I think sometimes, at least for me, as much as I'm like, rah, rah, women can do everything, I realize I haven't addressed how much negativity society encourages us to practice on ourselves. Yeah. And it's been a really interesting thing being in my relationship with Ash. She will stop me sometimes and be like, you are so hard on yourself.

Stop it. Like, stop. And I don't realize how unkind I'm being to myself until the person who I love the most in the world who loves me is hurt by how little love I show myself. And that is this sort of revelatory thing where I go, oh, I'm probably going to have to shift this dynamic if I want to make the art I desire to be a part of or create the sustainable change I believe is possible. I think it does start on the inside. And then also there's moments where I'm like, oh, shut the fuck up and get out of your own way and just go do the thing.

Like, you know, in the timeline of us doing this last night, yesterday was Trans Day of Visibility, and it was also National Run for Something Day, National Run for Office Day. And I got on the run for something Zoom last night because I was like, things are terrible and the Supreme Court fucking sucks and what are we doing? And I just, I sat on a Zoom for 90 minutes.

Like in the backstage waiting room, just listening to inspiring people talk. And by the time I had to talk, I was like, I feel so much hope. I needed this. Yes. I think it is. It's like it is finding that balance is so important because too much self-work, you know, can also like bleed into perfectionism, which then is part of the bad part where you're like, I must be perfect. I must figure this out. It is about like interrupting it with also like investing in your community.

Yeah. And getting out of your own way. So I love that you did that. Trying like literally just, you know, I feel like the cartoon of like Mrs. Incredible, just stretch just for just trying to catch all the things. But like we're not giving up, you know. No. We're bruised.

We're battered. We're getting up for another round. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. I just love getting to spend an hour with you. Me too.

I'm so inspired by you always. Yeah, same. And please tell Sammy, I just adore them. I hope we all get to hang. I hope so too. I would love a double. Me too. And with our moms.

A double date with our moms. We have to. That's the next podcast. I can't wait. Like I actually can't wait to see them in the same space. I would love that. Right? Yes.

I've really hit a stride where I like hanging out with my mom quite a bit. Isn't that nice? We didn't always have that. And we're in like a really fun zone now. That's so nice. What do you think changed? Honestly, I think there was work she had to do, which I have so much grace for, but also I'm like, I can't be the one to do it for you. And I think there were life lessons that I needed to learn to,

understand what she had been through. And I think on the other side of us both going through a real sort of deconstruction of life pattern. Like I finally looked at my parents and was like, oh my God, I've literally repeated every mistake you guys ever made. And that's not actually my fault or your fault. We never talked about any of it. And we finally sat down and did like the family meeting and talked about everything, and it was so hard. But on the other side, it was like we had shed all this shit that wasn't any of ours to carry. Yeah.

And it doesn't mean it didn't happen. It just means we're not continuing to carry it on our backs. And now we really like hanging out with each other because all of our pain that's on our backs isn't like stabbing each other over, you know? Right. Yes, totally. It's really interesting. And that is like a testament to doing the work on yourself,

that it then allows you to like connect in a totally different way. And then I was like, I do understand why I rejected the navel gazing because I was unkind to myself and was like, you privileged bitch. Like you've been on TV since you were 20. Go do shit for other people. But I'm like, maybe I should have just applied like 10% of that work to me because maybe it wouldn't have taken me. me 20 adult years to have some aha moments.

That's right. Uh-huh. Aha. Aha. But you know what? Don't blame yourself. That's part of the problem. You let myself up off the mat.

Listen, we evolve in the time that we are meant to evolve. That part. I've always been a late bloomer. Here I am. Same. Same. Always. And that's like, honor that.

That's nice. We did it. Yeah, we did it. We did it, Joe. I know, but we'll hold it. We're holding it. Yeah. I just love you.

I love you too. This is an I-Heart podcast, guaranteed human.