Dreamscapes Podcasts - Dreamscapes Episode 121: Promethean Permutation

Episode Date: April 12, 2023

“Hear the sum of the whole matter in the compass of one brief word — every art possessed by man comes from Prometheus.” ― Aeschylus, Prometheus Bound https://rkblog.com/

Greetings friends, welcome back to another episode of Dreamscapes. Today we have our friend Rich Kirkpatrick from the Bay Area USA around East San Francisco. And we're going to, he is, hold on here. I wrote this down. A musician, now an amateur researcher into the creative process and author of Mind Blown. Unlock your creative genius by bridging. I can't read my own handwriting. Bridging science and magic.

You can find him at RKBlog.com, which is, dedicated to creativity, belief in leadership. Yes, I have to read my own notes because I can't remember any of this stuff. We're going to get right back to him in two seconds. Would you kindly like, share, subscribe, tell your friends, always need more volunteer dreamers, viewers for video game streams, and stuff like that. Currently, 16, available works of historical dream literature, book 16 here, The Meaning of Dreams by Horace G. Hutchinson. Dreams and their meanings. Jesus. There is another book I have called The Meaning of Dreams. This one is Dreams, Dreams and Their meanings by Horace G. Hutchinson, originally published in 1901, now republished in

2023 by yours truly improved. I would hope the definitive edition. You can find other ones out there, but I humbly assert this one is the best. And that's my story. I'm sticking to it. All this and more at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com. All currently available titles on the books page, downloadable MP3 podcast versions of the show. And a growing dream encyclopedia of all the people in terms I've come across in my research. That's enough about me. Let's get back to Rich. Thank you for being here. I appreciate your time. Thanks. I'm looking forward to it. That's my rant. I try and keep it the same every time, all that good stuff. So fellow, fellow author there, we were talking a little bit beforehand about how you got into this and, you know,

your genre is, of course, nonfiction here in this research into creativity, which is fascinating. It's all based on, you know, our personality, our interests, our brain structure and function. but I don't know if you want to just kind of start with a broad overview of how you get into the book or what it's about. Yeah, I mean, you know, I've been a musician and I've been a blogger since 2005, so that's kind of ancient. It's a good long time. But, you know, so yeah, it's a good run so far, still, still going. But creativity, you know, people always tell you, here's how you, you have a creative block, here's what you do to get that. You take a walk or whatever, and they often work because, you know,

Practitioners will share that, but I always like nerdy and curious, like, what's behind that? And so I got a little nerdy when I was finishing a master's degree in leadership because, you know, I wanted to see how things move in society. And so I did research out the creative process. And I discovered this whole interdisciplinary academic world of psychology, anthropology, sociology, artists and neuroscientists in particular have learned so much and they consistently in separate disciplines keep coming up with some similar things and I had this little three-step metaphor for the creative process and I wanted to test it to see who am I you know to write anything down or I was teaching workshops to musicians and so they kept asking my creative process so anyway so I tested this out you know and got I don't know what's 150 citations throughout half of

because I couldn't you books only 60,000 words. But what I discovered is three steps is there's a dream, there's a sandbox, and there's a story. And those basically represent kind of this triangle, which means it's not always a straight line. You have to go back and iterate in different directions. But yet you're still iterative. There's still logic to it and there's still a process. So to the business person, I call it, you know, discover, develop, and deliver your idea. there's a point where you discover it and it comes to you in different ways.

You have to prepare and all these different things to get it. The inspiration. And then there's this point where you test it. You have prototypes and you have iterations and, you know, how many verses of the song, Hallelujah, can you write? Which is, there's many, you know. And then there's the story, which is where you get out to the world. Like, who am I talking to? What's the context, the language, so forth.

And so there's this, anyway, this idea that, you know, that's there. And so in that template I had, I found, oh gosh, of course I'm not as smart as these people. But yet, my thing fits what they're saying. And I was so excited because I wanted to be proven wrong, you know, because you have posture syndrome, right?

Yeah. Benjamin's, that's what I had something. Anyway, but it was really exciting kind of an aha moment for me at the end, like Archimedes in the bathtub. And I came in with these two characters, too. There's a robot and a wizard because creativity at the beginning looks different for some people. I'm kind of more the wizard, you know, where I, I,

I'm going to come with my big set of books and spells and, you know, mysticism and dream the idea of where the other person's scientist where literally they have to create a process to start their creativity. But both are creative and the brain as you get along the way that it works the same way. And so what I wanted to do is write something to help people like me who are only 20% of the population, the divergent thinkers, be able to deconstruct what we do for the rest of the world, but also tell those people. here's what you're missing if you're not learning that part in your brain. So the bridge, here's the thing. It's all about the bridge. It's all about being able to go back and forth between two particular networks in your brain. And that ability to shift between those two quickly takes practice.

And some people are, just like some people are taller. It's easier for them to do that. So anyway, so that's really exciting. And I learned things I didn't even put in the book. Like, what's a schizet type? I mean, isn't it? I was like, really, there's this condition. for creatives, you know, who are super creative,

where they can, like, essentially hallucinate in real time and engineer at the same time. They're like, so this gets a typical mind for these super, like, you know, Michelangelo. So anyway, so I got so excited about this and wrote a book about it. I love talking about it. I love, you know, people who think they're not creative. I said, creativity is just another word for being human.

It's what we do. Oh, yeah. We make things. So, you know, so the fact. We have a discipline, multi-discipline that's studying this, you know, humanity thrives when we are able to make things instead of blow them up. It's fun to see things blow up in a movie. So anyway, so that's my little elevator speech about it, a speech about it. And, you know, I'm still learning. Very cool. Well, there's so many, now we've got the dog trying to balance in my

lap without sufficient leg room. Come here. He's just going to. What's your dog, stand again? Oh, this is a little peanut butter. I've said this before. He's the inheritance from a deceased relative. He gets to come and retire with us and have a good home. He's getting to be an old man. I don't know, 12, 13, 14, something like that. He's, he's a pretty boy. He's a lap dog. He loves his daddy. He just wants to be close to me and be warm. So that's fine. He's going to go to sleep, but I hope. So you got to lay down, buddy. You got it. You got to knock it off. Oh, my goodness. Yeah, we're, we're kind of cool here and rainy, so I don't know what you're like over there. The Bay Area is hammered with these atmospheric

rivers. You know, we got a lot of sims. So I'm in Portland, Oregon. We got a lot of similar. weather in some ways. I mean, we are basically like, like a lot of California or northwestern California starting from the Bay Area up. We are in Portland, a rainforest as well. A lot of people don't kind of get that. We're on the same but reversed latitude, I think, as like the Amazon, basically. So no one. Oh, wow. It's something like, don't quote me on the exact numbers. That's cool. Pretty close. Like about the 45th, 46th parallel somewhere in there. So you get a lot of weather that's very similar to like southern, I guess, Southern Amazon and these mountains type of thing is very similar so people don't think of those

as related this is what my brain does like I look at comparison like these two things are the same wow well no wonder no wonder we get a lot of similar things well and this is where like the robot and the wizard really are both humans they just kind of look at opposite they're really not yeah well definitely I was imagination so imagination and logic this one thing I blew my mind when one of the neuroscientist was making a statement about your brain and how it works. Imagination is logical, she said. I said, what?

So I'm like outlining, you know, I'm like smirking up her textbook. She's, you know, Harvard researcher. And so this is really cool. She said, well, if you walk towards a cliff, you start to panic and feel fear and sweat and your stomach turns, so that's logic telling you imagining what would happen if you, you know, take a few more steps. Yeah. And so she was trying to describe your executive functions of your mind and then all of these

other non-imetry kind of parts of your brain are really being logical. It's just not logic and it's spreadsheet. Absolutely. Yeah. As you know, spreadsheets can be imagination too, depending on who your accountant is. Definitely, definitely, too. The second set of books, as they say, but while I was doing something I don't often do when, and then I'm actually trying to do more. When I'm talking to someone, I'm like, I usually go spontaneously and whatever I can remember. And then I lose my train of thought and it looks stupid. But I was taking notes about what you were saying and kind of how how I'm processing it. So many, so many great things. I love the triangle thing. That's a, that's a great way to, to understand these processes that are not,

as you say, linear necessarily, or at least they're recursive. You're going to get to a certain stage and you're going to come back and that's going to modify what you do there. And you may even get to the very end and test and implement and go, wait a minute, this isn't working. You go back to the drawing board or you go back to the process. You know, am I? It's very interesting too. you get this idea of how do we know whether something works? Well, we have to have a goal in mind. We have to define what this works means. And that allows you to implement and test methodology to get you there.

And then you look at it and go, did my method produce the result I was looking for? But it all starts with the dream, as you say. And this is differentiating a wish for the future, a hope, et cetera, versus a, you know, spontaneous unconscious visualization in the, middle of the night, which can also be representative of your hopes and fears. Oh, yeah. And that's because everybody says, I have an idea or you would like something to happen or maybe fixed, but, and there's a whole like underground process on that first, that dream phase that was fascinating to me. You know, it's how you're colliding with

different things and then how it comes, you know, incubation, preparation, incubation, and then illumination or the official act. academic words for that process, that then ideation, all of a sudden, if you think it comes from nowhere, but like as a musician, how to not learn these scales, how do not listen to this music, how did I not see that concert. My brain would not have that in there, my reservoir. Yeah. And the inspiration that comes in and makes it go, oh, cool idea. Yeah. And this is a great connection between, okay, so, wow, I want to say so many things all at once. This is a, talk about inspiration. Oh, that's cool. Well, we've got the, the robot and the wizard.

And it kind of describes different methods of getting to the same result. And I think a lot of us have a yin-yang balance of those both within us. One heavier than the other at different times. One heavier larger than the other. In general, baseline like biologically or personality-wise. We're going to rely on one more than the other because it works better for us. The idea of there's intuitive things where you just, you get an idea and you feel it. This is right.

Now, that is insufficient because intuition is. can be wrong. Fair enough. So you go to kind of logic and say, okay, let me see if I can figure out why this seems to be correct or prove it wrong. And I can, so I can tell the difference. And then you've got the more logical thing of like, let me determine something I'm trying to create. This is the wrong way to do it. But the more logical side of the thing is that structured thing where you, where rather than working backwards in a sense, you work forwards. And then you get to that thing. And you go, okay, this is what I'm looking for. This is what I think is correct. based on that process. And you were talking about the logic of intuitive or that underground

logical process that actually does go on with our emotions as well. It's connecting the dots between if I continue moving forward, I will suffer injury. So your body with the cliff analogy says, wait a minute, I see danger, a cause and effect, therefore intense emotion to move us away from the danger. I've said so many times, you know, anxiety, worry, fear, pain. These are all your friends. They are meant to be unpleasant to keep you alive. And it's evolutionary. We can't really get away from that. And then there's the, where it goes out of proportion to the danger in the, in the environment. You get anxiety for no reason. You feel bodily pain with no injury. These are, these are serious concerns. We try to, we try to treat. I was going somewhere with

all that, but you probably have some things to say to. Well, I'm just saying this, I, the, fascinates me about this and why, you know, maybe, I don't know if I'm correct, but I kind of think is this such an interdisciplinary thing that they're starting to explode in research is that we want as humans to thrive. Yeah. You know, and what keeps us from thriving, or what you describe when there's something gets broken and we can't, you know, process, you know, the fear is over, you know, in proportion to the danger is not real. You know, but at the same time, we have to listen to and deal with it. And so creativity is both a way to canary in the mind show if we're not being creative, that we're missing something perhaps, we're too fearful to act on or to come up with new ideas or to accept change or be totally risk-reverse, whatever.

And then the other side of it is, you know, creativity can actually help heal us because it will help us frame like you described a process. Well, I can test this idea out. And so if I apply logic to this fear, then I can actually overcome it. And some of the one of the psychologists, a group of them that we're dealing with ADHD, because, you know, hearing me, it's me, you know, you have to confront some of these irrational things and patterns with logic and say, okay, here's what, oh. So like I come over these characters like, like Mrs. Should have.

There's a voice. It's always going to say you should have done this. well, logically saying, well, that doesn't matter if I should have done it. That won't exist anymore. I'm never going to be 15. So why am I like stuck on that breakup at 15 years old? You know, I'm saying? Should have done this.

So somehow that's, and so creative process, that pattern of iteration back and forth of recursiveness is a way to keep our brain, I think, healthy. It's my theory. So that we are not afraid to have emotions, not afraid to feel them. to their extent, but then also not afraid to test them and say, you know, I'm human. So some of them could be my benefit. I could write a breakup song, you know, and I could process it that way. And then that could even mean something to somebody.

But at least it's done. I journaled it or I accepted my humanity. You know, this is what people are. They're not in a box. And this is kind of my, you know, being the divergent thinker, we're 20%, I guess some scientists say and some other states a little more. But we're the minority, those of us who basically, how they describe it, focus versus defocusing. So defocused person like myself, we come up with one point, go to 10,000. I feel that.

And that's our natural, that's our preferred way of thinking. Only 20% of us, that's me and the corner. The teacher saying, Richie, back then, why are you doodling on your desk? You know? So constantly. And that's actually sometimes a compliment to the teacher. Wow, you said something. It hit my brain and I went, whoa.

And then it came out in doodles sometimes. And it could be distraction on board. You're saying nothing of interest or of her. heard it all before, but it can also be like, you know, intuitively, you're like, I'm drawing something. And that I've got a, you know, that's coming out of me. There's a magic to, and we're going to talk about magic too. And my concept of in white, but probably aligns with yours significantly.

There's a magic to inspiration that we don't understand. And this is intimately tied with creativity. There is, you mentioned Archimedes in his tub. So there's that moment before he had his eureka. There is a gap between pre-eatimedes. E Eureka, Archimedes, and Archimedes having the idea. We don't know what's in that gap. We don't know what closes that gap and brings the prior lack of understanding into a state of now I understand.

We can only describe it, see that it happens, see the results of it. That is, you know, the magic of that. If you think of it like the pyramid of knowledge and then you've got a little gap and then you've got the flame or the all seeing eye above these ancient symbols. that gap, something above the peak of the pyramid, as high as humans can physically go, magic idea, inspiration. The Greek said the means, uses, you know. Well, one of the researchers said,

R-E-S-D, oh gosh, I'm going to forget this, and I even have it in one of the chapters, subheadings. This is great. But it's in the book, but there's this process that brain goes through when it, they don't know how you get to that point, right? but the magic point, the boom, the aha moment. But they've tried to reverse engineer that to a point of saying this is what the chemically

and they're basically, by the time, you know, a few years to go by, they might even map that out. But that still isn't answered the question of how do you do that. It just shows, but I think it's fascinating because now people can actually, you know, like doodling, and you understand as my teacher did not. They were angry. They thought I was, because no one else was doodling. But I found out I can retain because I think in pictures.

My brain is wired this way. So, you know, I'm a words person, but only because I see with these pictures the side of the brain. Am I doing the right side of the brain? Whatever the side of the brain. You know, it has more pictures, the language is the other side. And we emphasize so much that other part that we,

but you need both. My whole point is you need both. You can't just be doodling. and not paying attention. And some people need to doodle to pay attention. There's something I call percolating, like brewing a pot of coffee. If you don't have an answer, you put it in the back. You let it percolate.

And eventually you got a full pot of coffee. And it's almost like a watch pot never boils type of thing. But you can't also stare at a pot and make it boil faster by the intensity of your attention. This is something you said way back in the beginning to the idea of abstraction or distraction. And this comes from a lot of these books like they're, They were trying to figure out what is the, what is the brain function? These are all philosophers and psychology people in the, you know, in the last two, 300 years.

And they compare. So there's a dream experience where people discover a message comes to them in their dream, the discovery of a lost object. And they wake up from a dream where it says it's in the drawer. They go to the drawer and it's in the drawer. And they had no idea before they went to bed. They couldn't summon that memory from the background with the intent, the desire to find it.

They had a, you know, by, so long story short on that, we can do that when we're awake. We often take a break from a project. We set it down. Authors very typically would say, write the book, put it in a drawer, come back to it six months later, read it again. You are a new person with fresh eyes now. You're going to have a different experience of it. But also the idea of, let's say you're trying to, many of these older authors and philosophers were big on, you know, their daily constitutional walks in nature.

And a lot of them had some of their best ideas because now they're doing something with their body. I love doing things with my hands that let my mind float free. And all in the middle of my goodness, we get this out of the way. I got an idea and I got to go, got to go deal with it. So I love those. I call those meditative experience working on a puzzle. Meditative experience going to walk.

It often aids inspiration. This was, so Benjamin, this is like, yeah, the answer, you know, I have a chapter on inspiration in the book. And basically, you know, I call mining for inspiration. But, you know, it's the kind of thing. You got to rest, you know, you've got to take lots of walks. Not every walk is going to be, you know, Steve Jobs took long walks. And Stanford had this research where they proved what parts of the brain,

which is a little above my pay grade to really deconstruct that part of it. But apparently, there's some connections with certain, like, large body movement. So in the shower, you're like, your muscles moving larger muscles. And then what happens when you do smaller muscles, when you journal? or you do music because I'm musician. Like when I play piano, there's a certain calming and meditation to it. And it just makes me go to a different place. That flow, they call it, you know, and they actually pattern out in the brain.

Yeah. It's fascinating. But yet there's just, like you're saying, there is this abstract part of it that it's a real thing. And you can even see some chemicals or whatever do with their thing in the brain. But there is this thing that is not a stuff kind of thing as we, you know, like this. but yet it's as real as that somehow. Yeah. And they're connected, though.

There's not like there's a disconnect from this other realm of some kind and stuff. Well, this gets into the physical and the metaphysical. I mean, a lot of people today, I think are, okay, so if you go back several hundred years, people were maybe a bit too metaphysical, maybe more religiosity versus spirituality, the type of dichotomy. Then we hit the modern age, quote, unquote, quote and post-modern or whatever. And we've gone to this highly material explanation for everything and the broad assumption in the culture, kind of the zeitgeist of humanity at the moment is,

well, there is nothing beyond the physical. I don't think either extreme is beneficial. I think we are a melding of the two in our, in this form. I mean, there's, there's some people who believe our self, whatever that is, this, this thing that can say I am, is, is not. Is, nothing but the biomechanical or biochemical process of triggering neurons in the brain. It gives us this illusion of identity or what am I trying to say? Personhood as if we were something. And then there's the other people who say, no, we are a soul in the body, in a sense. And I think it's a combination of the two.

I think of us more, and this is a talk about going back to some of the mysticism and spirituality, almost occultism of the mid to late 1800s. I think of human beings is more of an antenna for the soul in a sense. And that's a weird thing. It's like what we see in the brain on functional MRI scans and different areas that get damaged and lose function is the process we see active at any given moment, I think are the result of that where the body and mind or body and soul meet and interact with each other. this is all very esoteric, strange kind of stuff, but that seems most likely to me. And then so there is this, and that's weird too because people say, well, that means there's a mind-body dichotomy.

And actually, I'm not a, I'm a mind-body Unitarian. And that's it. So we are our body. It's, it's, it, there is no physical distinction between the two in that sense. It's, but there is something metaphysical intersecting dimensionally, whatever you call it, with, with, with this plane of existence that is more. Yeah, there is. There is an experience of it that we have that's physical because, you know, this is, you know.

But for me, you know, I come from, you know, Christian tradition and the best of that tradition is that there is this incarnation where we are spiritual. Like this is. So why do you, so, you know, some people, you know, that a lot of people I don't agree with for my tradition of who, you know, take it to basically, the physical stuff is going to burn its only spiritual. so we could basically drill the planet to death because the new one's going to happen. Well, the historical part, the best parts of it that I like and that I see work are the ones that say, no, we are part of all this. The tree, the planet, we're made by the same stuff. And so, you know, the person that we say we worship basically came embedded in it and what he made supposedly. So he's basically telling us that that's you, you are this.

And so this is what's important. You know, so be nice to your neighbors. Be nice to yourself. Yeah. You know, clean up after yourself. You know, don't all those kinds of things make more sense with that, what you're talking about, this, this, this, the metaphysical and the physical kind of having this intersection in humanity. And, you know, and I think a lot of folks were whatever, when you're too materialistic,

you absolutely lose sense of any ethics. Yeah. Because then it's just stuff. Well, what if it's just stuff, me getting this cheap shirt means there's some, you know, a teenager that has to, is not getting paid enough. And, you know, am I, is that ethical? Well, I'm fine. You know, I'm the winner. But if it's all us together, we're all physical and all somehow it's connected, then I really says, oh, then what, then it matters somehow.

And I should be kind to my dog, you know. I mean, of course, he's, he's wonderful. His name is Watson. And, but you know what I'm saying? It's like, why would you not be? Because I'm connected to my dog, even though it's a dog. Yeah. I mean, come on.

They're like family. I think there's some people. So anyway, so that's kind of, it's not separated, I don't think. I don't, I can't see a reality where it makes sense. Yep. And I think a lot of that comes down to, there's a, what am I trying to say, a, it's a bit of a schism in Christianity and then maybe in other religions too, but I'm most familiar with that between the idea that humans were given dominion or,

stewardship. And that's a very great distinction between that. Dominion is, it's mine. I can do what I damn well pleased with it. I own it and I can destroy it if I want to. Stewardship is like, and I think the my estimation, the correct approach, I didn't make this. It was given to me. I should treat it with respect. And I think that's where we're coming from is like the moment you can create an entire universe yourself with snap of the fingers, you can do whatever you want with that. Then you're a God. Yeah. We are not God's humans did not make ourselves. No. And so, and that's why in the book, everything we creates an iteration, we have respect for what came before us. Yep.

So I don't even own what I come up with. Somebody, somehow, I don't even know why, but I'm building whatever I built on something else that was around. They call it invention versus intention, the academics saying. So you, it's like looking, you know, shipwreck, and you find this and that, and then you make something with it. And that's kind of invention. And I love the French researcher who was trying to articulate this. And so, yeah, so if you feel like you own an idea and, you know, you trademark the word the, whatever, and you're happy and you have the minion, well, then you view everything. You view your pets.

You view the tree on the down the street. You view the air that other people have to breathe after you're dead, not mattering. Yeah. And you think a hierarchy of things is what's important. So I own my children. I don't own my children. I have them for, they're just these independent beings that somehow I get the privilege of having to. take care of them now. They're young adults and certainly I don't own them now. But it's,

but there's no, this idea of ownership. That's where slavery comes from. That's where war comes and that's where bad corporate greed comes from. And I think, but creativity, and this is kind of why I love this whole topic and I probably will continue studying it to some degree is important to humanity because we thrive when we are in that process of making something because we have to then deconstruct what's around us. We have to be humble with ourselves to see if it works or not. And then in that, it requires collaboration. So to me, you know, I think creativity is another thing what people do when you thrive. And so this idea that I have like a little elevator sermon in that.

And I create, therefore I am. And that's kind of the sense of being, it's not because I can just think and do it, but the fact that I'm able to make something from abstract to concrete that's useful to me and others. For sure. And there's beautiful, too. And there's two ideas. That's great.

The first one for me was that I have a perspective of invention, what is it, invention, where it is not creation so much as discovery. I don't know that humans have, like, bottom, bottom line, you know, a priori assumption, humans that do not have the power to create precisely as such. We cannot make manifest manner from our matter from our thoughts alone or our intent or will alone. So what we are doing is kind of like, and I use the example, the wheel always existed. That, the idea that a thing could roll around thing rolls and if you put it together on an axle, you can then balance things on it and move them more easily.

In my estimation, that always existed. Humans just discovered these principles and said, and the manner of, combination, which allows it to function in a manner of proper utility. Now, someone will say that semantics, you know, someone invented the wheel on a cart and made it real. Technically true, but like I said, humans can't manifest anything by will alone. And it's equally true, I think, to say that we can only discover what is potential, what could possibly exist. Like, anything that can't exist, we can't even conceive of it. So it's maybe a definitional tautology argument, but that's how I look at things. But that also leans into my, you know, if the world is

nothing but material things, then people are just material things. If we're just biochemical machines, why does anyone matter? Why not kill someone, treat them poorly, et cetera, et cetera. It's got to be something above superordinate to the mere physical that tells us how to treat people well. It gives us the motivation, the reason to treat people well and then to follow through on it. And hopefully describes a bit of the manner of how. we're supposed to do that. I think that's what a lot of the major religions are looking for, especially Christianity, the idea that here's a best practice user guide for what's important and how to go about doing it. And then that's the properly spiritual side versus the religiosity

of dogma and inquisitions and all the... Well, if you marry it with dominion and ownership, what you're doing is you're saying the reason we have rules of any kind, There aren't practices to help you thrive, for instance. They are basically designed to subjugate. And I think, and that's basically dehumanizing, de-peopling people. And that's kind of, to me, that's the antithesis, at least of the kind of Christianity I hold to. The only way it makes sense to me is that it's for my benefit, because if there's a creator out there, he wants us to thrive. And so the things that are misunderstood and don't help us thrive may not really,

really be the right things that people are saying. They put those as the first things. Yeah. You know, and they're harming things that obviously harm people. Like, let's just say slavery, for instance, the easy one. Right. Some people still today, I would say, well, there's a case for it. Yeah.

You know, I have a funny. Corporate America is getting close to that, you know. I have a funny perspective on that, which is that I think we should always have people willing to advocate for it so that it is never forgotten. So that those arguments don't get rediscovered as if they are new someday. Ouch. That's, yeah, that's, that's the worst. So that's why I'm pretty free speech absolutist.

I'm like, if you ban an idea and we forget about it, someone 100 years from now is going to go, I just found this great new thing. Let's do. It's called slavery. Wow. We must never, it's kind of that never forget type of thing. But before I forget this, too, it's just an inspiration from earlier. The idea of speaking of traumatic experiences like being enslaved, that's horrible.

You were talking about the creative process as it resulted. There was two thoughts ahead. One is getting it out of your head and onto paper, getting it out of your head and into words, formulating it to tell another person, writing it into a song. There's something tremendously healing about that kind of taking a trauma or post-traumatic stress disorder and expressing it in a way that almost expunges it from the body. Like you've got to let it out. You can't keep it in.

And there's ways to do that. that through the creative process that are tremendously healing. That's a huge part of psychology in general. And then that also relates to the idea of reoccurring dreams. Like why? So one of the components of PTSD is that you experience frequent thoughts about the trauma, involuntary flashbacks, highly sensitive emotions to similar situations that trigger extreme fear and anxiety responses.

And this seems to be very similar to the process that's going on with recurring dreams. if they are recurring nightmares, it's almost like an involuntary PTSD response. Your brain goes right back to this thing you cannot stop thinking about. And so you get a series of dreams that are exactly the same because you're processing the same trauma

over and over again. What I found is that talking about the dreams, recurring nightmares specifically, getting an understanding of it. It's like, what is the body and the brain trying to do by dwelling on something? It's the same as the cliff.

It's saying, danger is here. And until you really understand the danger, the nature of it, see it fully confront it, accept it, and formulate a response until you understand what it is and decide what to do about it, your brain can't let it go. It's designed not to. So that's one of the, I wanted to throw that out there before we got too far and different stuff, but the idea of creativity being a healing process. Very often, you know, indispensable part. Well, there's one research that three different studies took different groups of people, some were cancer patients or whatever, and had them just simply journaled the trauma,

the physical trauma that they feel and the stress they have about having cancer. And they showed that the people who were journaling that set group actually physically improved more than the people who weren't regularly practicing, expressing, you know, trying to make meaning out of it. That was one result. The other result, which I find fascinating is that they, you know, the language in their journal went more from me to we. They felt more connected to the people around them. And so this idea of being self-actualized, being, you know, finding yourself and seeing

yourself and is actually seeing other people, too. And that goes against some of the, you know, I've been in some really strict traditions that I told you, you know, anything, psychology, it's just going to be about you, you're going to become so narcissistic and you're going to hate everybody or something. But the truth is, the more you heal and more you know your frailties, there's a lot of Christian tradition I just study recently that talks about how that's important. You know, looking at your dark side and realizing I am this completely, I have this dark side, but I'm still valuable. Yeah. And the aha moment of being able to imagine that I am this lovable person.

And I have these dark thoughts and I have these things that maybe I have to overcome and I'm a human being. And that's all okay. And that aha moment, you know, it takes imagination, though. I have to imagine that, you know, first I have to know who I am to be seen. And then in my spiritual life, now that I'm seeing, what is the message to me? Messages that I'm loved. So, wow. Then that means I can actually care for other person.

So the journalists, you know, they're journaling about their cancer, now they're connected to cohorts who are going through it, but also their family. I think, well, that's kind of, that's powerful. in a way, you know, to heal means to be able to love again, I guess, is the message there. I think so very much. And it's, it is, I mean, this is so well known. I'd say that it's become a trope or a cliche, but it's, you know, cliches are a cliche for a reason, because it's just true, uh, that you can't love others until you learn how to love yourself because that's like the first necessary condition to get to the second one. And, but that means it, and, and, and that means

And as Young would say, I mean, there is no light without a shadow. So he posits the shadow self on the inside, which is all the stuff that you're not happy with or proud of or the stuff you consider, you know, socially inappropriate or all the urges and drives you suppress. He was very, very big working with Freud about the suppression of things or, you know, reaction formations and all the different lingo, denial, et cetera. And he says, you know, but you can't actually get to the light without confronting the shadow. It's like you have to go through the bad stuff and see it. That gets to some other modern day thinkers who say, you know, realize there was nothing uniquely bad or wrong about people living in Germany in the early 1900s. That could be any of us under the right conditions. And it probably would be had you grown up in that culture and experienced that moment.

It's very hard to see yourself in a moment and realize how everything is going so wrong. You get a very conditioned to a lot of systems working around you and the feedback loop of reinforcement. It's like, you know, whether we're in those times and whether we would hope we would make a different decision, those people were human just like we are. And that means we also have the capacity to go horribly wrong. And the best way not to let it happen is to know that it is possible and guard against it. confront that shadow, know it, live it, in terms of not hiding it or, what is it, not ignoring it and leaving it to manipulate you from the shadow. It's a big thing.

It's like that unexamined life thing, back to Socrates, you got to know yourself, what is going on in there. And then you can have more conscious, intentional control. Yeah, this whole, this whole, would you admit that word, whole word, dominion, power. is really the enemy because if I look at a zero sum, everything's zero sum. Had a great coffee with my son yesterday. You talked about this, about famous is not zero sum. It's just, you know, some people are famous.

They could be five famous people. It's true. And it's like to put our mind as you, we start envying people because they could be famous. And if I'm not, you know, if they are, then I'm not. So therefore I have to like, you know, I'm for a threat. And so this whole thing about people being a threat comes from having to own that. But if we are humble enough to say, you know, I love America and we've done some stuff that's, you know, not pretty good, you know, to say the least. That doesn't mean I don't love my country.

It doesn't mean I'm not truly American because I am, you know. But there's some folks who would say to even suggest that, you know, some of the, okay, just take it from I have friends who are theologians, you know, and they're saying so-and-so wrote sermons on the back of slavery seats because he recycled paper back then, right? Jonathan Edwards was his name and he owned lots of slaves and and, but yet he's look at, not everybody, but some groups say, oh, you know, you can never question this. Well, he was a human being. So we have to at least look at him as a human being during that time and look at his perspective of what he didn't. He had journals that said he would not preach certain things to slaves because they might

get the idea that they shouldn't be slaves. I'm being like, well, that's dishonest. He even disagreed with, you know what I'm saying? Because of power. because, you know, all these different kinds of things that go on. And so, you know, that's why I think creativity is a good, at least hopefully bring us together as humans. For me, what I enjoy about it is helping people with business people or whatever they're doing to understand that, you know, think of it about making something. You're creating this product.

But think of yourself like Picasso. You might not know what the meaning is, Picasso would say about his paintings, but I'm sure there is. meaning you will get out of it. But he got the joy of making it and watching others, you know, say, oh, you know, look at that. You have all the story that you brought. That's a great artist. It's not forcing them. I'm not forcing because of power.

I want to propaganda make you think like me. I am bringing out of you something that's bigger than me. And if I'm a truly, you know, so why don't business people think more like artists is one of my things? Why don't you, you know, look at improving humanity, look at improving yourself and thinking just like, whatever heritage you're making that, it's adding to society as opposed to, you know, cutting out the competition and winning. Yeah, taking from it. There's definitely, yeah, hurting.

I love, well, speaking of artists, I believe the Beatles are wizards in their own right, you know, in that regard. I am you and you are me and we are all together, I mean, that kind of thing. And, you know, the love you and in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you make. that I mean, these, you guys were, they were, they were just selling records. I mean, but the beauty of it is you can be extremely popular and extremely rich because you're saying something so true that resonates with everyone. Wow.

That's, that's how you do it right. That's where that creates. And not in just one point in history either, but it's something that, and that's with great literature and why Shakespeare stories, you know, and still around. It wasn't even the best writer of his day and all that, right? But it's just something captured about who we are. So if you're seeing, I guess it's the thing, if you can be seen and seen, this one of my movies and I said, it'd be great to be on the show because I want to

maybe learn to see myself a little bit better because dreams, you know, are very fascinating. And, you know, kind of like, you know, should I tell anybody about these dreams or what do they mean? So I'm fast. I'm looking forward to hearing what you might have to say about a couple of the, I wrote down a few things. So I would at least be organized, you know, try to remember the images. Yeah.

I don't know if that's how you're supposed to do it. Well, there's, hell if I know, I don't really understand what I do. When I do, I'll let you know and I'll write a book about it. I have my method. But this is one of those things where it's like I had an intuitive process that just occurred naturally. I just talked to people.

And then I started actually, this was the intuitive thing. And then I go back and like, well, what's the logic to this? What am I doing? That's when I start describing to people, the three step process we go through, which is also, as you were saying, recursive. And that's why I love the triangle thing. There's a lot of holy trinities out there and the power of the magical power of threes in a way that people don't realize. It's not like the number three has magic necessarily.

But a lot of things come in threes that you wouldn't minimum of three legs or it's not a stool. It won't stand up. That kind of a thing. It's everywhere. And that's where you get the mysticism of Pythagoras and, you know, golden means and all this different stuff. We've tried to explain these things so many different ways. But let's do this. I can ramble for hours.

Let's do your dream. So what I'm going to do is make a note of the time here. And, yeah, the basic process, you just tell me, tell me a story. And then we'll talk about it. So I'm ready when you are. Okay, so I have two different dreams I put down here. One is when I had a couple days ago, like, and this well, but I had a repetition of this kind of setting. The other one is one I've had as a child that I just can't forget.

That all of a sudden I'll remember that there is this one. Which one do you prefer to start with? That's interesting. It is entirely common. I've found that I make an appointment with someone. They already have a dream in mind. And the night before they talk to me or two days before, they have another dream.

And it's almost as if their brain says, you're about to have an opportunity to learn something. Talk to this guy about this. That might be more. So this is the thing, though, whichever one is more, whichever one you choose. And that's not just me putting it on you saying,

I don't want to decide. It's like, whichever one feels more. meaningful to you. If you want to understand a dream from your childhood that you've never been able to shake that feels important, but you don't know why, that might be extremely beneficial. If this more recent one feels more important, it might be because there's something you're trying to consider now that's going to, you know, you puzzle it through. It'll help you in the near to short term future or you're processing some recent event that is meaningful to you. So, long story short,

I'd flip a coin. It's hard to say. Yeah, I'll go with the one I first wrote down, which is the one that happened a couple nights ago. Okay. Good deal. Yeah. And I've spent something that had some recurring kind of template, I guess, if you would, a work situation. Good. We'll figure that out. Yeah. So, um, okay. So here. I was just going to say, I was just going to say real quick before. So when it comes to recurring dreams, some people try to tell me all of them at once, like here's all the things that are in common. I work a little backwards on that. I want to hear the formula of the most recent instance, and then we can go back and compare it to the other ones. So that's, it's basically the, the actual narrative of the dream first. Benjamin the Dream Wizard wants to

help you pierce the veil of night and shine the light of understanding upon the mystery of dreams. Every episode of his dreamscapes program features real dreamers gifted with rare insight into their nocturnal visions. New Dreamscape's episodes appear every week on YouTube, Rumble, Odyssey, and other video hosting platforms, as well as free audiobooks, highlighting the psychological principles which inform our dream experience and much, much more. To join the Wizard as a guest, reach out across more than a dozen social media platforms, and through the contact page at Benjamin the dreamwizard.com, where you will also find the Wizard's growing catalog of historical dream literature, available on Amazon, featuring the wisdom and wonder of exploration into the world of dreams over the

past 2,000 years. That's Benjamin the Dream Wizard on YouTube and at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com. Okay, so I find myself at a place of work, walking around. It's an office. There's cubicles, people working. It seems to be at night. The lighting is dark, that's why, and it's blue color is dominant. There's like this blue color.

It looks, you know, oh, okay, that's, um, I'm taking, I'm talking with people, but see, you know, see their face. or hear the voice. But I feel some kind of excitement a little bit. Then I enter one office and I'm holding some papers in a hand that I think is my worker, something I made. And I see a young person showing a screen that mirrors the papers I have. And he has a printout as well.

And on the printout I see these thumbnails in a little JPEG, but I can't read the name of what the daypeg is next to the photos. And I was like, oh, this is cool. you've like captured this somehow. And so, okay, and I continue to walk around. And then I run into the man in the corner of the office, a little passageway, who I think is a boss or my boss or like authority figure of some kind.

And I was going to ask him about the hiring of a person and he kind of interrupts, oh, this is not in public here, cuts me off, shaking my hand very warmly and nodding with pride saying, you know, we took care of that, basically. but without words. And then I feel like accomplishment and satisfaction and calm, which is odd to me. You know, and it appears that I'm leaving, and it's my last moments in the office, and no one is familiar.

And the office is also a new experience kind of office, but it doesn't feel like it feels calm. And I can remember that calm feeling is satisfaction, like, oh, it's okay, whatever this is. And that's the dream. at least my reflection of the images oh yeah no that's fantastic and that is good enough you know anyone listening that's all we need

that's it it's just whatever your experience is and I'll tell you this as a guest but also for the audience they haven't seen it I did about an hour long episode hour and a half even with the gal who her only experience of the dream the entire dream that she remembered was the experience of slowly falling through a void and we talked about it for a long time.

It's a powerful thing. Yeah, there's a lot of experience in there to talk about. So it doesn't have to be an epic masterpiece. It doesn't have to be the most unique thing anyone has ever heard. It's all personal to you. So that is step one. I shut up and listen. Step two,

we go back through it again. Now I'm going to try and see it a little better through your eyes. I have the worst handwriting and I wrote as fast as I could and I miss things. Not your fault. That's how this goes every time. the very first here's the other thing too is my concept of dreams is that it is one unbroken chain of thought from before we went to sleep all the way through the entire period of sleep until we wake up again and become conscious of our thoughts again like it never stops but what we what starts and stops

is the awareness of it the ability to recall so there there is again going back to these old books dreams and their meanings by horace g hutchinson the most recent release there are people who define dreaming differently. The people who say we dream the entire night are people like me. You say, this is our thought process. Our thoughts never stop or bring. Keep spinning. The electrons keep firing.

Other people say, well, a dream is only what you remember when you wake up. Otherwise, it's not a dream, quote, unquote, which also makes sense. Like, how are you going to tell me a dream? You don't remember. A dream, a instance of a dream is what you do remember. So it's entirely likely there was a, some other chain of thought that started put you here. But this is the first thing you remember.

And that gives it context of, okay, here's an idea in this form. Here's how it plays out. And then you got to a point where it kind of hit a resolution and you were able to sink back down into a more restful sleep or lack of awareness of present experience, unconscious experience. Long story short on that. So I always look at where did this thing begin? So you've set yourself in a place. of work in an office with cubicles. So there's a very like, you know, kind of a corporate cubicle office space.

Yeah. Yeah. Which is its own type. So that, what am I time to say? Um, we start looking at different conceptions of things and how you process them. And in the broader, in the broader sense, there is, there are many types of work environments. A farmer works. in the field, in the dirt, outside.

An artist works in a studio, maybe a large open space with a giant canvas there. Very much not a cubicle, very much not a field of wheat. So there's many different types. So this is a very specific type of work environment that. So my question to you would be then, have you come from a history of corporate cubicle workspaces? Or are you drawing on iconic representations of that to set yourself in that

environment. Is that your history? You came from kind of the corporate world workspace and now you've left. I worked at these things that called Megachurch a couple times where they was a corporate world. Your office and I actually as a young person, I worked in a legal office, worked for the DA as a file clerk and I was a music copyist and music librarian. So you're in an office type of setting. And I worked as a counting clerk as a young person with a 10 key.

That's how long ago that was. Right? And yeah, so I had some experience with that. And then now, you know, I'm mostly self-employed or if I do music, you know, I'm basically, that's a stage. I had dreams of those where I'm on some kind of stage, you know, and I thought other dreams were the

recurring kind of context would be like a how, of some kind, you know, or a place of business. And they, those each have some interesting feelings with him. This is the first time I ever had association with this kind of a feeling, with this kind of a setting and kind of a sense. It's weird. So, yeah, no, for sure.

So it would be very much different for you to conceptualize. What am I trying to say? The ideas that then flow, the thing that sparked the idea that got you into considering this train of thought, as it were, has something to do. do with conceptualizing being in a corporate environment versus other types of environments. The context is going to be different. If you had imagined yourself on a stage and there were blue lighting and there was, you know, another person on stage with you holding papers, that would have been maybe you're

in a play. Maybe they're reading a script with you. Maybe you're rehearsing. And now we go somewhere else. This is, okay, this is about performance and rehearsal. But this is more about what it looks like. First blush. it seems like you're saying, okay, imagine there's the shape of the corporate world containing this idea.

Like whatever I'm going to think about going forward is in that context. So we don't have to have an answer and I'm not giving you an answer for it, but just kind of understanding why this, why through this lens to consider this idea. And that's very interesting too that it is at night. I mean, that is its own separate category of thing. not many businesses in the corporate world function outside of nine to five now some do and maybe a lot do but that's not the iconic representation i would say that i guess that's probably not your typical experience you didn't pull a 11 to 7 a.m. shift at a corporate office it's like that's when people go home and sleep we come back at 6 a.m. what are you doing um so this is very much

it's like you're in this space but you're you're there at the wrong time you're out of the normal rhythm there's something going on with that. that, that and the idea that nighttime is more closely, because of the way humans experience night, the darkness, the mystery, the fear of the dark, the unknown. There are a lot of broad conceptions that go with that. And nighttime is the time where things are hidden. Things are more difficult to see. Things are nighttime.

It's the obscure. the shadow even like we're talking about the shadow of the self you know this may be something things being done under the cover of darkness in that hidden way um so there's it almost uh i want to get your feedback on that too like how you conceptualize night but it's it's almost as if you know this is the time when criminals come out to get away with shit so what what do you how do you conceptualize night uh in in that regard what do you think i don't know if i have real negative because you know i would you may not yeah be nocturnal You know, work through the night.

So the jobs I had, you know, most of the official office jobs would not be this kind of setting. They would be yellow lights, green lights, and daylight and beige's, not these braids and blacks and this blue light and looked like it's nighttime somehow. So I don't know what to think of it. It was kind of like I'm unfamiliar here, but yet it, something. and it feels interesting. It's like I'm going to feel some sense of something going on. For sure. And so part of this, and I always try and do this too is like, am I just giving my associations. Now, of course I am. I'm giving suggestions, but I try to tease out suggestions from assertions. And so I'm going to make that, I'll make my unconscious or barely conscious thought process plain in a way I'd almost never do here.

So for me, my associations with nighttime would be calm, quiet. It would be away from the stress and pressure of the day. I'm not trying to get away with anything. I'm trying to get away from people and noise and activity. So it's nighttime for me rather than, you know, I threw out a lot of associations, you have criminal hidden and stuff. Well, maybe I do prefer to be hidden. Maybe I don't want anyone watching me and seeing what I do.

So there's a hidden element to it. But it also may be for artists, especially, when do you put on performance? in the evening after work time. When might you be most creative? I might do my best writing from 11 p.m. to 7 a.m. And that's just how it is. So I'm a night owl. So there may be, is there a circadian rhythm link

or a work productivity link for you with nighttime? That might be an ankle to go. I'm trying to think about that because nighttime feels most of the time I'm doing not office stuff. Stuff that I really enjoy would be music. I'm in, you know, I'm singing, I'm playing music, I'm in a band, I'm all those kind of, if I just flash on my brain thinking of, all those are, like you said, the stage is blue. That's the most popular lighting, because I did lighting a little bit. Yeah.

It would be blue background or blue backlighting with some magenta's, you know, cool, you know, some warm, slight color to make it, you know, not so cold feeling. Very go-to lighting. That's like the go-to comfort. you know, if you take a video, blue, what was the studio going to look like? Yeah. So I kind of, and it felt really, you know, and I think what you're saying about not being,

like being undercover, though, there's a sense of being undercover where what I was doing and like with the boss, like we knew somehow, but it was like this sense of accomplishment somehow and it was like this. And then seeing that person, I guess, matched was like, oh,

you know um that was an interesting like thing just like you have whatever i'm bringing to the table somehow you've already processed it so it felt like my work is done somehow i just kind of felt like at the end of it we're like somehow you know um you know oftentimes you always wonder when you do art stuff like you never done and yeah and so i like i do coaching sometimes with people and so i will go to offices and I'll be a consultant and it felt like kind of I'm this consultant where no one's really knowing exactly all the conversations I've had are that I'm doing so it could be that the blue is is relating to my experience more recently professionally where I'm kind of in this role people will call me for an opinion you know I work with the creative people in the in the

church world for instance who don't feel seen yeah and they want me to help them through that, either recovery on the way out of it or surviving when they're in it. And so that's kind of, which is why I wrote that book, because I'm trying to process all that. Yeah, exactly. And so an idea that somehow I wasn't needed was a celebration, almost, but it wasn't like, let's tell everybody you're not needed. Like, oh, yeah, we don't want my name to be outspoken somehow. And I kind of have this, you know, I always thought.

There's some of us who are musicians who like to be the front man and some like to be the side man. Sure. I really found out that I like to sit back and play the drums and not be seen at all. I'm just here for the music. Yeah, that's cool. So whatever it is, I'm the side man so I can lead the band, but I don't have to be like the face of it. And to somehow have that creative collaboration and know that you, you, it's like kind of, I felt like it's like this. It's like I planted a tree that somehow it's going to grow and I won't know what's going to happen with it.

but my part was done. What it felt like. Like really. That was the end of the dream kind of feeling. Yeah, felt, felt like that after, because that guy and taking my hand

and just the feeling of it was just the sense of satisfaction. I don't normally get a sense of satisfaction. I've been struggling to find it, you know, when you're an author, for instance, you know, is anyone ever going to find the book?

Am I ever? Yeah. But somehow it's, it just felt like, okay, this is different than all of that than what you're, you're somehow feeling,

that you are invisible in a way. You're doing covert things in a way, possibly. Yeah. But they're helping and that's what you want to do. This is a fascinating connection to consulting work. Because your job is not to come in and be the front man. I'm here to save you all. This is all me.

Look at me. I'm doing this self-aggrandizingly. You're actually there behind the scenes. It's ideal. that in a sense, nobody even knows you were there. It's, you're the power behind the throne in a way, but not in that kind of manipulating the king's sense, but like the king is the frontman. The business is the business.

Maybe the management is the management. And what you're there to do is, is help them do what they do better. And it doesn't, and you don't matter. You know, if they could get the information from someone else to be the same thing, it's not about you at all. So there's something behind the scenes covert hidden about the nature of your work in some ways. So you go into these spaces in, in a behind the scenes way, not as the front man, giving information that lets the people who are there to do the work shine and take,

take the stage and follow through on the process. I don't know if that's feeling right. Well, if you do your job well, when you're saying that, I get, I'm getting emotional hearing that. Yeah. Because that's like, you know, I, It's hard to embrace what's against what most people say is success. And what people say you've got to be the name, you've got to be the face, you've got to be that. And so this is telling me, look what you're satisfied with. Maybe you don't have to be the name or the face. Even if you're putting a book out there and you're trying to help people find it, it's really them.

It's really, that's what's important. And some other person maybe even could be the face. Yeah. And that's okay. It also means, you know, moving on too, like, you know, maybe there's a point now I can move on from whatever it is. You know, this is a pivot point in life, you know, your 50s. You know, you grow up thinking that somehow you get older, things get more stable. It's actually the opposite. It feels like there's more change happening, you know, rapidly as you have less years of life.

You have all these things. And I would think, you know, this. might even be deep enough to say, you know, maybe this is how I want to end life to feel like this is what I leave. Yeah. And that's okay. For sure. You know, and I feel it feels profound. Well, thank you for that. And because I, ideally, if I'm on the right track, you get this emotional resonance with something I'm saying. I'm like, that feels right. It feels important. That speaks to something in me that is talking back. It's so I, not, not to make it about me, but I get what you're coming from the idea that I don't, there's like wealth, power, and fame

are kind of the talking about, you know, Holy Trinity's or whatever, but at least the power of three in some regard, triangular configurations. I'm not really interested in being famous. I'm doing this to make a living, but I don't, I never had any desire for my face to be on the internet and people to say, I know that guy and I'm not looking for everyone to love me. I hope they don't hate me. I hope they like what I do, but I really don't care about. fame. Power. I don't want to control anyone. I do not. The only power I seek is maybe the

ability to have a positive benefit to someone else. That is a kind of pass up the power of competence. I'm good at what I do. I can offer. So what's left over is, you know, it's basically just the wealth end of things, not extreme riches. I mean, I'll take a million dollars if you got it and you want to give it to me. But the idea is I want to make a living. I want to be good at what I do enough to. So I'm not looking for, I'm not really looking for these books to be my legacy and everyone remembers me in a hundred years. I don't really care about that. I'm kind of making a living now. That'd be nice if they did. I think it's important planting the tree under which under the shade of which you will never sit. Fair enough. Maybe someone reads these someday and

they get more benefit out of them. But it's not it's not chasing wealth. It's not the greed kind of thing. It's not chasing narcissistic fame. It is very much more the limited power, not power over people, but power to affect positive change that I go for. So I'm right with you. there like if people forget who I am, don't build a statue to me. I don't want that. That's never, never, no matter what I do. Please don't do that. You know, that's the kind of thing. I think you're in a similar boat, you know. It's difficult because I have a lot of, you know, friends who do similar things that I'm trying to do. And, but, you know, they're, I'm puzzling to them, I guess in that way. But I'm kind of thinking what this is telling me is that, you know,

just be that. Um, why not? Yeah. And embrace it. This is what I feel, I feel kind of like this is a very powerful dream in that sense because it's saying that's what you want. You don't, you know, you want some, you want others to succeed in that you had a part in it. Yeah. And then you can move on.

So you don't have to be holding their hand. So I think we've actually, yeah, very early on, hit something that's a very important, overarching theme. So the next thing to work on in the middle of it would be to, Why do you feel that way? And we've explored that a little bit. What does that really mean to you? And how do you go about doing it?

So I think this dream might be related to identifying an ideal outcome in that, you know, what is your dream? As we were talking about before. And then also examining your process of how it goes about. And maybe how to do it better as well. Like what looking at yourself in how, how am I executing this? And is that, do I believe that is the right or best? method. So

you're talking to people without sound and these people have no faces. It's a very interesting thing as well. How long did that portion last? Was that a brief encounter? Like you walk up to a table. You say a few things. No one has a face and you walk away. You're going to multiple cubicles. I'm walking around and there's maybe there is even somebody like behind me.

Sure. We're together. But it was not like a parent, but it's like somebody. or I'm viewing myself almost. That happens a lot, yeah. But I know it's me, you know. And so I'm, you know, everybody seems comfortable with me being there, but it's not like there's any dialogue. And then that one thing where it was like little thumbnails and says JPEG,

which I thought the only thing I could literally see was blurry thumbnail and then dot JPEG, you know, somehow there's images of something. But then I had this thing that was a messy papers that I had. had that I created and that somehow seemed like, oh, they got it already. Oh, great. I don't have to, whatever I was going in there to do, this young person had it and was just saying, look what I have. And I was like, oh, so this, so meeting that young person that you said kind of mirrored you in a way, I want to get to that too. That was as a result of making the circuit of talking to people, like eventually you came to him as a other process. Yeah, it was kind of just felt like I was just talking

And I end up going to this corner and a hallway, you know, into this little, an actual office, unlike the rest of the office there, which is all just kind of desk and cubicle things. Okay. So you actually proceeded to a separate area that was its own enclosed space. Separate. Yeah, it was its own door. It had to go through a door to get in that room. And the person I actually saw, you know, you know, I think it was a young man with their care and they're working this way. you know from and then and and and and all I saw was I'm showing you you know here like

um something and then that's that's kind of how that went and I was and then I had all this it was like oh and then that's when I proceeded to try to just act it and then bumped into the person in charge I think because it seemed like he was the guy but he knew me and we had conversations apparently going on about whatever it was that I don't know there's like for sure but it was something was very comfortable that he was with me being the guy who was in charge yeah and these are very common experiences as well you have the experience of speaking without sound in in this dream and people having no identifiable faces not this horrifying lack of a face type of shock no no no it wasn't horrifying yeah no no and it was actually no reaction it's like

but that is as that's impossible in real life you don't speak without sound you can make your mouth move but this that's not that's not how people communicate you know and And the idea that people would have no identifiable faces, at least, that also doesn't happen in real life. And then the idea that you would meet with someone and just know that they knew what you were thinking, that doesn't happen either. So there's a dream logic to it where knowing something is the same as seeing it visually. And because it's all the imaginary. None of this is physically taking place under physical laws. You could fly and, you know, fly to the moon.

And cut me off, though, like in a way, like, okay, let's not finish that word. Yeah, and you took you to a private place. So let's get this out of the public view was also. Well, yeah, it all happened in one, we were standing there. It all happened there. And then that's when I would turn it around to leave and then I woke up. Gotcha. Yeah.

Well, that, so I wanted to just finish up with the idea of, so since it is different from real life, in the sense that we don't often speak without sound. Sometimes the, no, right, or see people without faces. that could have actually happened in the dream as well. It's very vague that, well, there was a person there. I'm like, can you describe them? I don't really know. Any facial features?

I mean, they had them, but I don't know. So normally we don't pay attention to that stuff enough to have it come out as. So what the presence or absence of something specific that stands out to you is relevant to why it was shown to you in that way. So there's something about speaking without sound and something about a person not having a face. We want to look at those two ideas and tease out. If we could just go with the sound thing first, like there are nonverbal communication methods.

You know, if I, if I'm listening to you talk, but then I start looking over here and talking to someone else, you're going to go like, he's not listening. And I didn't say I wasn't listening. I showed you I'm not listening by physically not listening. But these people were listening. There was communication happening without sound. So there's, that's why I'm harping on that and trying to throw it out. through a little bit and I'm just going to stop and let you think. What is it? What do you think about that?

The idea of communicating with accomplishing communication without sound or the idea of words being spoken that lack sound. There's something there. I don't know if anything just jumps into your mind. Yeah, I don't know if I really spoke to those people I didn't see as much as they connected with them. Like, but I knew I spoke to that person in there about. And there was like no words I heard between us, the young person in there, but I did see what they were wearing, dark, something dark, and black hair and,

you know, the back of their head. And then the boss guy, I remember saying part of his face, you know, smile, you know, and dark, slick the back hair, kind of like mine. He was like, you know, unlike the other guy had, you know, this long, like a kid, you know,

like a teenager or something, younger guy. Oh, boy, shaggy. long, shaggy back hair that reached collar. I know that that was, that was, I remember that. Interesting. Interesting. And those, and those, they looked similar in the sense they had black hair and, and, and their skin tone, you know, they weren't, uh, no, they were dark Irish if they were Irish,

you know. Gotcha. Sure, sure, sure. So fair enough. Yeah. So that's, uh, definitely there's, um, so we, we could, we could say this about the idea of, you know, communicating without sound is because it's not about. the words. It's about the connection. You said connection. So there's something about it.

It's like looking at the purpose of speaking to someone rather than the act of speaking, the words that are said. You're trying to connect with them. You're trying to communicate something. And the idea of, we could say the same thing about the idea of not having faces. It's like it isn't important to you who you're talking to. It's not that it is a specific person. Rather that you're talking to everybody. You're trying to communicate. You're trying to communicate. maybe universal principles in a sense that are like here's here's stuff that could benefit anyone it doesn't the face i'm communicating with successfully doesn't matter as much as the idea itself and the validity of it type is that like kind of resonating with you yeah and and then one thing that i

wrote down was that i felt kind of sense of excitement walking yeah i was going to get that too like yeah which which was you know oh yeah something's cool. I get something's cool right now happening. Yeah. I was feeling that, you know, um, which there was no, I couldn't think of anything directly. Why was I feeling that way? Yeah, but there's a lot of reasons we'd be excited. And I would say it's very exciting when communication is successful, when someone understands you, when someone gets you. It's like, you have that moment of, you know, someone starts saying, oh, you know, and then I did this. And then this happened. I'm like, I know, me too. Oh my God. I had the exact same experience.

experience, you get it, you know what I'm feeling there. There's a, I don't know if that's the kind of sense of excitement or a different shape. Yeah, I think it was like, um, it's like I'm going to get to do something is what I felt like it was. You were actually, it was more specifically an anticipatory excitement. Something's coming. Yeah, anticipating whatever anticipation, I constantly feel anticipation all the time. Right. And the negative sense.

So this, this positive sense was like, oh, this is cool. Yeah, that is looking forward to a vacation at Disneyland. I would get it's a positive sense. And it's like, I'm going to have prime rib tonight. I have reservation.

That's that. That's a positive. Good. But so that's kind of what it felt. That's the way this whole thing felt different in that it was a positive thing. I'd have not felt for a long time. Very cool. Very cool.

Maybe, I mean, there's a lot of ways to go with that is that you could be, you know, broadly, conceptually thinking about the, successful connection, communication of universal principle in that way that's broadly beneficial, you are engaged in that process, and then you know that bears fruit. You know, the idea that something's good is about to happen because I went through the

proper process of successfully communicating beneficial information. That's one way to look at it. The other is that you had completed that process and something else occurred, which you knew, something future oriented that was not directly connected was coming. And once you'd completed, there may be ways to separate this out in different things like, so here I am in the normal course of doing what I do, going into corporate business offices, talking to all the people, cover of night, I'm behind the scenes, it's not about me, you know, I'm not taking the helm and becoming the new captain.

And I'm doing my normal process of communicating with people and it's kind of a faceless crowd because I talk to so many people you can't remember them all, but suddenly a sense of excitement. Something's coming. Wait a minute. So we could conceive it that way where there was actually two separate things or we could conceive it as it is the process itself which built to a sense of excitement. I don't know if either one of those feels right to you. Yeah.

I think either could be because I do think that one of the I see windows of things that I'm able to do now that are really exciting. But, you know, it's going to take some time for them to play out as kind of the logic of it. Those who are saying, here's the path that you're on. And, you know, like I was saying earlier about, like, being author of your book, it's like, it's people are looking for this book. But you just, your job's to find it. It's not like to somehow magically make people love what you write or think that they should

buy your book and magically they go from not interested to interested. But they're interested already. And it may not be a huge group of people, but it might be. But the point is they're there. And so, and that came to me, you know, as I was trying to process the negative emotion, everything moving slow. So maybe this is kind of a way of telling me to look broader to not be so, you know, myopic about what I'm feeling at the moment.

got you maybe that's what it's saying well you also did shift your main career focus you said you're kind of you know semi retired now into this work from home environment so it may have been saying look at your past look at what you used to do that was fulfilling in its own way that you know but you're kind of communicating with a bunch of faceless people it's like over and over again that gets repetitive maybe even if you think you're doing great work um and now there are new opportunity suddenly realize I'm about to hit, what am I trying to say? Something is coming that is about to be exciting. What am I trying to say? It's the idea of something. There's a change coming. There's new opportunities on the horizon that are going to fundamentally change the nature of

my work. Even if this was satisfying in this form, I'm now on the cusp of something else. So that's definitely seems right. I mean, especially because it's related to real life experience, that things are coming. So then... Yeah, and what they are, I don't know what they are, maybe. Maybe I do, and I just don't, not really seeing it play out. Yeah, I wouldn't consider this, what a much? Prophetic, I don't know how to identify or understand those kind of things,

but sometimes those things are because we subconsciously, our logical subconscious puts together some pieces that we have a conscious feeling about. we can't really see those pieces however hard we look. And then actually this is a look inside. So the next bit of the dream might actually tell you what those subconscious reasons are, those connected dots for what you think is about to happen. And whether it does or doesn't, at least this is what your subconscious says, my best guess.

This is what it looks like to me. So what you eventually came to is, and again, we have this representation of a barrier. You've left the generic office space. Now you're in a office. This is a different experience. You've got a boundary. You've crossed the threshold into a new environment. Now it's a more private, smaller space.

There's not cubicles of dozens of people. There is one younger guy at a desk and he's, wait, before I say that, you walk in and you look and there's a desk and he's sitting there, just to make sure I see it correct. Okay. And it's kind of facing you with maybe a window behind him or something or not. No, he's facing the wall. I see his shoulder and his dark hair is long hair.

So he's like behind me. I'm behind him here. You can see like. Okay. So he's actually facing away from you. And then you can see what he's. And then I'm looking at it. And then he shows, you know, me.

Oh, here's what I'm working on. And that's stuff. And I came in there was something that was similar apparently. But he had all. And I was like, oh, this is great. Look what he's doing with this. And I was like, gotcha. Any associations with this younger person in terms of your past self, one of your kids, figures you've met or famous people in that regard of like that you know of that might fit to give context like who this person is?

Why this representation of a particular person or type of person? Anything come to mind? well i do talk to you know young people like that um often uh because you know that's uh once you hit a workshop church musicians like and they they'll come and and and and then consulting generally you know those are the the creative employees you know so it seemed like he was one of the those kind of persons okay you got a generic you represented Yeah. And so it's quite, the hair wasn't like the other guy,

which is like, you know, totally. Yeah, yeah. You know. Okay. So you've got just the broadly,

the idea of a younger, more, perhaps more creative person. In a way, like they would say fresh blood for, for business, you know, the idea of someone comes in with new enthusiasm,

new ideas. Yeah. And they've got this, this inherent potential to, that comes with children or youth. And they can become so many things. Once you've got the end of the road and you've, you've aged to a certain point,

you have spent your potential. your potential. Where you are now is the result of potential. Not so much more to go. Iconically, it's not that older folks like you and I can't be generative and pass on information and keep being creative. But there's something unique about the almost limitless, the feeling of limitless potential with a child, that kind of a thing. It's going somewhere with that. So you've got this iconic, so you are meeting somewhat to you an iconic representation of a more youthful. creative energy, and you're finding that they're doing the same work.

You said it mirrored your own in a way. It mirrored what I was doing, and I don't know, and it kind of felt like I might have had like a little part in it, but I didn't have to encumber them with what I was bringing in. That it was actually a win for me that allowed me to leave the room. And I guess. Yeah. Yeah. There is something powerful in that. No, no, I think it does. So there are circumstances where you go to, you think someone would benefit from a piece of advice. And suddenly they come to you and tell you, guess what I just learned? And they give you the same piece of advice. And you're like, hey, I was going to tell you. You figured it out on your own. That's actually better you figured it out on your own. But you don't need me. There's no needing someone or someone who needs you is a very dependent situation, which there's two problems there. One is, it's better that they don't for themselves,

that they figure things out that they are independent, but also it's a responsibility on the provider, like someone's looking to you to solve their problem in a way. So you've discovered this youthful energy is going to carry itself. It relieves you of a burden. It was almost like the feeling of, but also that's what I was supposed to accomplish. Yeah.

It was the result of that person doing what that was. coming up and showing me that in a slightly different iteration than this thing of actual papers, but print out of it in nice forms and somehow jpigs with pictures, some mirroring, I guess. Sure. That would make sense to me of it. But the sense was like, oh, this is, my job is done in a way with this person, or whatever the situation I'm in, that particular job, okay, I've checked off something. So that's, then I bump into the authority figure person who's younger, but not as young, you know, and felt that they were like maybe bringing him more people like that guy.

I don't know. And it was like, oh, somehow, oh, and he was on whatever, it was a similar kind of feeling, but more that he was taking care of something that I was asking, are you going to take care of? Stop. I'm already taking care of it. Isn't that great? like oh wow you're you're you're free for sure yeah and that is that that freedom of being released from a burden in a way and there's a there's something very we talk about ideas being born or giving birth to a new project you know taking creative energy and instantiating it uh there's there's

something very much like that going on with the idea of you know you've come to this youth who might represent it's like raising kids your goal is not to make them dependent on you for the rest to have power over them for the rest of your life. It's to get them to a point where they can take care of themselves. And then you feel proud of that. That's the end of my job. Now you're always going to be around for advice and maybe some disasters, but it's not daily caretaking and stewardship. You want to get to the point where they don't need you. They don't need you anymore. There's something very much similar to that with the idea of getting a project to a point where it's self-sustaining. You've put enough effort in that now the snowball can roll on its own. A, I did my part and it worked.

that's very satisfactory. No surprise you'd you'd have that. But another thing just came to my mind, too, this idea of you actually have like another Trinity here. You've got youth, middle age, old age, in a way, or elderly. It's the riddle of the sphinx in that sense, the three stages of man. You know, the potential of youth and the creativity. Well, he's gotten to a point.

But now you've got the boss and he's more middle age and more similar to you. And then you would be the elder, even if you're only a few years older. Um, I don't know what that means, but we, we, we got it in there. I wanted to throw that, throw that out when I had the thought. Um, he comes to the office to find you or you leave the youth's office because your work is done there. But yeah, I'm done with that. And I'm still, okay, so now my next point, um, is to ask this person something and where, and then he starts in the middle of that. So you go looking for the, the boss man.

I think, I think it's that somehow I would hope to have that. encounter that was the desired thing. And then ends up becoming more satisfying than I anticipated what he was telling me. And, you know, they were like at least a decade apart, you know, one, it's like maybe a 25 and a 40-year-old. And, of course, I'm 50-something. So it's like an interesting triad there of that. That feels like it.

And it's, you know, I wonder if, you know, does this represent kind of my old career in a way, saying I've kind of, you know, got that to a point where now, now I'm doing something different now. Yeah. Maybe that's what this is saying. And that's what I'm excited about that. I've contributed a certain level, whatever this is. I don't know. Or maybe it's a parenting thing I think about how I'm viewing my children.

Could that be it? I think we use a lot of those metaphors in our head. It's like the images, the icons, the symbology, hierography, however you want to say it, comes from our, are, we think very often in associative ideas of similes, comparisons. This thing I'm thinking about is like this other thing. So then we frame the dream as, oh, let's imagine that other thing is happening in this context. And that's where we get things like, you know, bubblegum pirates flying a cloud ship to Mars. It's like, what is that?

Well, bubblegum, pirates, Mars, these all meant specific things in the context. since like the type of thing doing a type of behavior in a specific sort of way. And now we got bizarre narrative that makes complete sense. But this one is also very one of those real, basically realistic dreams. I mean, you could be in an office space. You could walk around and talk to people. There could be a kid at a desk, you know. It's interesting that you, you know, so you are actually, you're engaged in in the work of communicating to people satisfactorily.

And it doesn't matter who. You're speaking, speaking the truth to, for the best. benefit of the masses, so to speak, you go and you look for is the next generation coming along that can take over and run on their own. It looks like he's in there doing his job. You're like, okay, well, let me go talk to the boss. You go look for him and you start to talk to him and he says something like not here because apparently you're where other people can see you. Yeah, I think, I think it was whatever this is that you between you and me that we understand this is we don't have to talk about here we shouldn't not in a real negative thing it was a good good news

but it wasn't for everyone to hear i did write that down to the idea that it was not my my initial impression was is this scabian shady is he trying to hide something from the other people like he's pulling a fast one and i think you're you're right now that we've gotten to this point was it feels more like this is not information for everyone this more personal to us. I mean, you don't, you're not, you don't go, go to the bathroom by yourself because you're trying to hide anything shameful. It's like, this is not for other people to see. I'm going to undress in private or whatever. You know, this, you have an intimate conversation with a partner that's, these are words just for us. This is not for other people. There's something special about that kind of a communication that seems to be going on here.

It's like, so whatever, whatever you're processing in broad strokes, you needed to know that the guy, running the place understood and he's saying this is just between the two of us. This is something only the two of us should discuss privately. And not only that, I get it. I'm on the same page. It's already taken care of. It's already done. Yeah.

So normally, and it was about like bringing somebody, hiring somebody. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. So expanding their team and more people where normally you would expect, okay, that situation would be opposite where we had to let's go you know so we're not this is not where we talk about HR yeah that would be a little more different kind of private conversation yeah yeah and that that's that was why it was fascinating to me like what wow it was like so whatever that was it released me like it made me feel satisfied you started with excitement anticipation and then after

that was like satisfaction well i said boy i feel great this morning yeah no no for sure and that's uh there's very there's something very special important about the idea of you're going to him to ensure new people are brought in that the company itself that whatever business they're engaged in is going to expand it's going to grow on its own and that's so there's a bunch of different thing you know you've come in to share your wisdom with with the people you've checked to see that the incoming or a current crop of young talent is up to the task and appears to be doing well, hey, they don't need you. You go to the boss.

Is this going to grow on its own? Am I really done? Do I need to stay involved to add my energy to make it grow? And he's like, you did everything you need to. You're released, as you say, it's a sense of completion with the whole process that I've done a thing that is now self-contained, bookend it with. It's going to grow on its own and continue. And that person seemed happy with me too.

I felt like, oh, I'm affirmed too. This is like, not I'm shutting you up because we can't talk about it, but hey, this is great. Thank you. You know, it's like the handshake was like, yeah, and that was kind of interesting because, you know, I've had opposite experience. I've had dreams where I was actually talking enough in the dream that it woke my wife up. I was actually talking. Oh, wow, yeah, yeah. So the channel, we, you first arrive in in my Discord is called somniloquy, sleep talking.

Yeah. Okay. Oh, that's interesting. So like I would do that and I'll have a lot of dreams where no one's hearing me, but I'm actually talking. And then I know what I'm saying. Sometimes I wake up thinking, and I've even dreamed words. Yeah. I had this terrible conspiracy against me in a work situation and I had a caveat come up.

And then the word warning came up as I woke up. Yeah. And then ended up finding out there was a conspiracy going on. I was like, really? Would never have imagined. But I knew somehow, you know, you see signs of things. And so this dream is interesting. because I have seen faces and I have talked out loud, the fact that I didn't really need to,

and I was heard and accomplished was like, wow, that was a new, this is almost different than a lot of dreams I've had before. This seems like very much, yeah, very much a celebration of successfully finishing a chapter, in a sense, and being able to put it behind you as that's a win in the, it's a checkmark in the win column in the book, I go on to other wins. Very, yeah. And sometimes it's just very nice. What is it? It's a very nice experience to just have a positive dream, period. I wish, I wish no one ever had nightmares.

They usually aren't. Yeah, I wish no one ever had nightmares, but those tend to be more common in terms of dreams we remember more intensely emotional. We're more focused on remembering those things because it's important to finish processing it when we're awake. But some, but this one is, you know, it's like the fear motivator or wish driver that would spur this line of thought might be. Let me just review where I'm at. and make sure I really can move on. You know, have I really finished my work? And your conclusion at the end of it seems to be, I think I did. I think I did everything I could and it worked. And there really is nothing more to do. I'm not leaving.

I'm not abandoning a project. The project's done. And so you're giving yourself permission to feel good about it and celebrate for a minute and start something new. I think this. And I have abandonment issues, by the way. So it's really, this is, this is really, It's such an inverse to have this in a dream, because usually dreams is processing the trauma of

not knowing a birth father and not just different things throughout life that you experience. For sure. Well, that's a good. That's a very good and powerful thing, too, is because a lot of us, what is it? They're like human nature to say, I'm not going to repeat the mistakes of my parents and then sometimes we do because we can't help the patterns. But there's also, let's say specifically with abandonment, this will make you hypersensitive to perceived abandonment. by other people, it will also make you very self-critical. Am I abandoning people improperly and refusing to do that?

So you would want a second look at leaving. Am I doing it for the right reason? Am I doing it after success rather than quitting? There's two very different things. The job is done or it's not done. Leaving takes on very different connotations. So not surprising, you would want to, in a sense, comfort yourself and say, you're doing the right thing.

it's okay to go. You've succeeded. Pat yourself on the back. Let it. Let it be success. And I've had jobs I've left where there was, oh, you know, this is gray. But then it also has been once I tried to stay longer than I know I wanted to or should have for this very reason. This is interesting. And so this dream in a way is kind of different. It's like a different level of that. Look at the kitty. Yeah. This is about, who's that? Her name's baby. She was named by our niece when our niece was three years old. She loved Justin Bieber. She's going to kill me. Sorry. No one knows who she is. But, you know, Justin Bieber's song, Baby, Baby, Oh. And so she took one look at this cat and said, oh, baby. And I like, that's been her name ever since. So, and the other one, Princess,

she also named Princess. So, but I think you, well, we have come to come to the end of the thing, unless you have more questions. I don't think I have more to share. It's up to you. Well, thank you. This has been very enlightening. Good deal. I love successfully solving the mystery and the measure of success is, does it make sense to you? Does it feel meaningful to you? Does it align with your experience in your life? You're, you know, that's the kind of, this is the kind of power I want. And there was absolutely no use of force, no compulsion, no pressure, coercion. There was no control over you. There's no real power beyond, here's something I can offer legitimately and it had a positive benefit.

That's now I'm going to cry. That's like I'm getting, I'm getting for Klimt. Talk amongst yourselves. Thank you. And I think the dreams, you know, it's just, you know, I used to journal more of them. But this is good. This is good. So I'm sure you're going to have some other guests come up.

They're going to have not so positive a dream, but I happen. I hope someone else does. I like those two. I'll take them all. I'll take all kinds. And hopefully, you know, even with a bad dream, we can, I got to put you down, baby. I need my papers. You can't sit on those.

You know, hopefully even the folks who have bad dreams after talking to me, it gets a little better. They can understand it. They can put it to rest. They don't have to keep re-experiencing that trauma. Okay. Well, we'll just put a pin in it here and wrap up that she's coming right back. You got, okay. We're going to say amidst, amidst giving snuggles to the kitty.

Once again, this has been our friend Rich Kirkpatrick out of the Bay Area USA. say he is a musician, researcher into the creative process, author of Mind Blown, unlock your creative genius by bridging science and magic, what I hope I'm doing here. You can find him at RKBlog.com, link in the description below for more about creativity, belief, and leadership. And I'm just going to say for my part, if you would, please like, share, subscribe, tell your friends 16 currently available works of historical dream literature. the literature literature the most recent dreams in their meanings by horace g hutchinson book 16

the abc series all this and more at benjamin the dream wizard dot com and uh the last thing to say is just uh rich thank you for the conversation well my pleasure and thank you and everybody out there thanks for listening