Dreamscapes Podcasts - Dreamscapes Episode 134: Midgard Musings

Episode Date: July 19, 2023

“A wise man is not showy about his wisdom; he guards it carefully. He is silent when he comes to a stranger’s home. The wise man seldom wanders into harm, for you can never have a more faithful friend than a good supply of wisdom.” ~ The Poetic Edda https://linktr.ee/MidgardMusings

Greetings friends and welcome back to another episode of dreamscapes today we have our friend jesse atherwagon out of murfysboro tennessee he is the host of the random heathen ramblings podcast on youtube also on the podcast uh outlet of your choice all across the internet uh link tree description below we're gonna get back to him in two seconds would you kindly of course like share subscribe tell your friends always need more volunteer dreamers uh viewers for the game streams at uh 5 pm daily on the youtube and now multiple multiple platforms that's very exciting for you guys me um 16 currently available works of historical dream literature the most recent book 16 dreams in their meanings by horace g hutchinson working diligently on book 17 finally making some additional progress on that all this and more at benjamin the dream wizard dot com donations uh links for me as well in the description below i never say that also benjamin the dream wizard dot locals dot com if you want to become some kind of a contributing sustaining member trying to do a um build a community there attached to my Rumble account, et cetera. That's enough about me.

Oh, that's a longer opening. Normally gone back to Jesse. Thank you for being here. Yeah, thank you, Ben. Thanks for having me. It's good to be here. Yeah. Well, we can start off with thank you for having me as a guest on your podcast.

It was a fascinating discussion with a lot longer probably than either of us imagined it would. It did. And got a lot of good response to it as well. Nice. People were engaged with it. it and yeah it was it was I was one of those things where you know I was kind of stepping out of my comfort zone in terms of uh talking about things or having people on my show that I you know about subject matter that I typically don't so it was a it was a exploring new territory for me

and to get such a good response out of it was was welcome so yeah a great time with it absolutely and I posted it on um my channel just a link to your your video on your YouTube and uh put it Thank you. Put it up and I've created now a whole media page on my, my WordPress where it's just like, here's all the places I've been interviewed by people. And that's neither here nor there, just giving you extra promotion.

I want people to see it too. I want people to, that's just more free advertising for me. I'm not going to argue. Yeah, yeah. It's a win-win. Yeah, no, for sure. Oh, yeah, definitely.

I'm with you on that. I was also impressed. And learning by example, I'm hoping to implement that, but impressed by your good interviewer. I of course I maybe I would might say I'm a good guess I just ramble you just wind me up like a top and set me loose I'll go off but you also had like when I ran out of things to say you had questions I'm always good with that good with coming expressing my own thoughts but like listening to people so I'm telling myself getting ready for this today ask him questions like and so my first my first thing was like how did you get into podcasting on this particular subject like that's what people always asked me to how did you get into being a dream wizard but like what made you want to be the host of a um the random heathen ramblings had that what's that story so uh you know when i when i first started doing like content creation it was um it was on facebook and i was doing like

live streams on on my facebook page and then i was um taking those like downloading those videos after the live stream and uploading them to youtube uh on on my midgard musings youtube channel and it all started off just as like not a podcast you know it was like talking about topics that were of interest to me related to my spirituality and my my religious preferences which is a pagan and you know dramatic paganism so I'm a polytheist and but anyways when I when I was doing that for several years and I'm like you know thinking of topics to talk about I dabbled into doing podcasting and

it kind of just fit the direction that my channel was going. I was like trying to find how I was going to represent, you know, my brand. And, you know, podcasting kind of was the natural flow that things went into. So season four, yeah, it's going on right now. We're in season four.

So, you know, for roughly the last four years, it's been going steady. I thought about that. See, I'm bringing it back to me. I always do this, but I thought about doing a seasons thing. And I just, uh, I just decided to number them and it'll go on as long as it does. But yeah, I just keep it simple. But I thought about that.

That's, uh, um, I suppose another question would be, is like, there's always a story of like, how did I get into interpreting dreams that took like it was a 20 year journey. How did you get into, um, say, Norse paganism as the, um, religion for you, as the, as the expression of how you chose to see the world or what was that journey like? Yeah. Well, so I was raised in a, um, born and raised in a non-denominational, non-denominational Christian, you know, environment. So we didn't really label ourselves, you know, as like any kind of isst, you know what I mean?

Like not Baptist, not Methodist, not Protestant, nothing like that. It was non-denominational. And so, you know, being raised in that and then shifting to something like a complete 180, you know, like a total polar opposites. It came as a shock. But I moved away from where I'm from. I'm from New York State originally. And I moved to the state of Tennessee when I was about 22 or so.

And still was kind of following a Christian practice, you know, and trying to find a church home. I've been to so many different churches and different denominations, you know, Baptists, Pentecostal. Catholic Methodist. So I tried different things and I don't know, like I never really found a place that I could say I was at home with. And I really started to, you know, think for myself more at that stage of my life and come into things about the way I was raised that I had questions about or that I was just like, this doesn't feel it didn't feel right. You know, like I was going through the motions because that's how I was. raise and I thought that's well that's what you do you know you you just follow the the path of the people before you and um I reached I reached the point probably around the late 2000s where

I just abandoned all religious ideologies like I stopped going to church I'm like I don't even know what I want anymore and I just I think I don't want anything you know um so in a brief time For a for a brief time, I was not religious. I didn't have any sort of like spiritual practices. And then right around the time that the History Channel came out with Vikings, that TV show, that first season, I was like, oh, that looks cool, you know, Vikings. And I saw, you know, some things going on in the show that was a representation of the spirituality of northern European or Scandinavian people during the Viking Age. which interestingly enough was the time of history where Scandinavia began to become Christian themselves.

Yeah. So their pagan beliefs were being eradicated and outlawed in some places. That's a fascinating historical story. Yeah. Yeah. And so I was like, well, I want to learn more about this and come to find out, you know, as with many things on TV and in Hollywood, you know, things get embellished or things get romanticized. And I started to learn like, well, this is not the most accurate representation of how these people lived at the time. You know, it was focusing on the saga-esque aspects of things, the stories of the heroes and whatnot, which is all really fascinating too. But I wanted to learn more about what the average Joe at the time was doing, you know, how did people in that area, in that region, you know, what did they believe in? So you have to go back even further than the Viking Age and earlier than that to know what these people believed. And so that's kind of where it all started.

It started with Vikings on TV. That was kind of the seed that was planted. But from there, I applied it and actually found like I was at home. You know, I felt like I was doing things that somehow connected to me or were connected to me through a long line of ancestors. You know? Yeah. So, of course. yeah that that that's kind of how things started for me yeah yeah and I think that's a lot of I mean

in in the most literal practical like a step-by-step explanation of things first you become aware that alternatives exist like oh this isn't the only way to see the world and then you start looking at well what seems right for me you know so I've got a um I have a very similar origins story I think a lot of people do in um in in America specifically so we grew up in a house where you know, we never really went to church, but we're kind of like Christian by default. If you ask my parents, if they believe in God, yes. They read the Bible every day. No, we weren't they kind of pray before a meal family.

But it was kind of a, I don't know, not unexpected and not really a shock, I suppose. It always been a bit of a contrary. And when I was young, I was like, I think I'm an atheist. And my parents are like, oh, really? Well, okay. Tell me how that works out for you. You know, I would argue with them. They always didn't want to argue with.

I always wanted to argue when they did. Sorry, Mom. But, yeah, this is my way of, uh, exploring the world in some ways is like I have these ideas so challenge me make me think about it and let's go um and but you know long story short I never actually settled into a belief system I kind of went from I went from more atheist to agnostic which I consider myself an agnostic atheists it's a whole thing um but right but I went from rejecting it as these are methods of control as to more oh these are frameworks for through which to view the world and understand

humans and nature and everything. And, oh, all of these other stories, this mythology, as people call it, it carries important truths. And, you know, on your podcast, I was talking about, you know, that I have an equal respect for Greek mythology, Norse mythology, as I say, you know, not disrespectfully, and Christian mythology. That took longer to come around and to say, you know, the Bible, they call it what, basic instructions before leaving Earth?

Leaving Earth. Right, B-I-B-B-L-E, right? Yeah, I heard that. Yeah. I just heard that again the other day. like, I got to remember that. That's clever. I forgot about that. Fair enough. When I kind of think of it as one version of a best practice guide to being human,

here's the problems you're going to face. Here's our understanding of what it is. Here's the solutions we've come up with. And if you look at each different religion, that's kind of what it is. It's like, here's how to understand yourself and the world around you. So kind of later in life, heading towards the wizard phase, I wasn't always ready to be ready to do this, but I've come to have a deeper respect for those kind of things. like maybe there's things I should understand more.

And I think that's how you, it just sounds like that's how you got your journey. It's like you hit something that resonating. Like, whoa, this feels right. Let me look into that. And then you started figuring out their methods of, so I don't know if I, I don't mean to put you on the spot or make you reveal secrets,

if they are. But, you know, a Christian worship would be, well, we go to church on Sunday. We pray before dinner and thank God for the meal. There's practical elements of worship. how do you express that or are you comfortable talking about it or I don't know if that's private or it could be a rude question in your religion. I honestly am ignorant.

Yeah, no, I don't mind. So, and that's really the interesting thing that I came to learn with, you know, North heathenry, Germanic paganism is that it is very unlike Christianity or unlike a lot of other monotheistic belief system. So I'm talking like Judaism and Islam. They all have this sacred text that they kind of frame their lifestyle around. Their worldviews are largely structured based off of what is in their sacred texts. It's all spelled out. And yeah, exactly, like, thou shalt do this, do not, right? All that.

And there's none of that in paganism, or in at least this version of paganism and in Germanic heathenry. There are no sacred texts that we have to go by. Now, there are some things that have been written. down that have been compiled over the years that make up the lore, right? So there's the stories of the gods and some of their adventures and the things that they're known for and their characteristics and whatnot. That's what makes up the lore or the myths. And there are also sagas, you know, stories of people who did this, that thing or the other that became well known. And but they're not like, again, they're not like a Bible. They're not a book of

instructions to base your life around. So the practice, the act of worship, really becomes something that is tailored around your individual desires, like what you want to do, how you want to do it. Now, there are nuances and things that if you put, you know, a bunch of pagans or heathens in a room together, a lot of things are going to mesh. You know, people are going to understand, like, you know, what an altar is or what a, you know, certain items. that may be recognizable across people that are maybe not just Germanic pagans, but Celtic pagans.

Certain item symbols are recognizable as being representations of the divine or the sacred. But in terms of what is done or how it's done, it's kind of going to vary. But how I practice is I spend a lot of time in nature. I'm a very animistic type person with my practices. Not all pagans or heathens specifically are. Of course, there are a lot of things that get, you know, rooted back to the veneration or the acknowledgement of the sacredness of nature. But I connect better and I connect stronger with the forces of not just the divine, but also the spirits that are near and around me. I believe that we have profane space and we have sacred space.

And where the sacred space exists are where the gods and goddesses reside and they have their things that are going on. We as humans, I believe, exist in profane space. But in profane space, we are also interconnected with the spirit realm. So there are things that are both seen and unseen that are happening around us. And when I'm in nature, I feel more a part of that experience. So my worship becomes more of a living thing. It's not so much of, you know, at 9 o'clock every Sunday I'm at church or anything like that. It's a bit more free form.

You know, yes, there are certain things that are structured, but it's not as, you know, specific. And then on top of that, there are certain times of the year that myself and other people who I share similar beliefs with will celebrate holy days or holy tides, you know. So we'll have certain times of the year where we all gather together and we celebrate and have a feast and do our thing in a very uniformed and unified way. So in that aspect, yes, there is structure, there is ordered. But for the rest of the time, it's pretty easy going and not as like, you know, concreted structured. I don't mean to say like it's all willy-nilly. we're just doing whatever we feel like, but I don't know, it's kind of like somewhere in between that and, you know, Catholic Mass. Yeah, yeah, and that's what I was getting kind of where I was thinking I might go next with the questioning is like, so Catholic Mass say on Easter or Christmas.

I mean, those are number one. Okay, it was a couple of thoughts I had. So this is where I go, my brain explodes. You mentioned the sacred and the profane and that's actually in Christian teachings as well, archaic Christian teaching. Like a lot of people don't think of it that way today, but that the physical world, the fallen world, as Christians would say, is the profane space. It is where, in profane meaning, everything is necessarily imperfect.

And then there's the realm of the gods or God with heaven, which is perfect. And as above, so below in the chemical sense was meant to be like, you know, try to bring yourself in alignment. Number one, as above dictates what will be below, that God made the universe, that kind of thing, but or the gods. And what you want to do is bring yourself in alignment with sacred, even though you're in a profane space and it will necessarily be imperfect, but you're aiming for that. So we get the biblical concept of sin is falling short of the perfect ideal, which only exists in the sacred space, trying to sacrifice in a sense yourself in this profane world. Okay, I was going somewhere with that too.

But then the idea of, I don't know if you have comments on that, but that was one thought I had. Yeah, no, no. There's like, there's, you know, divine order. or divine plan. That's not really something that I subscribe to with my particular practices. I don't know how other heathens or pagans would. But I don't really

see the similarities with that, and it's more what you call it, cyclical. So there was a beginning to things and there's an end to things, but it's not a hard start or stop. It's cyclical. It's like the cycles of the seasons

and stuff. So, you know, death and rebirth are our constant. So when things are happening that, you know, we would say are, is it, you know, like Christians would say, you know, it's God's will, you know what I mean? Like there's some sort of divine plan for everything and everything is subject to that, that sacred powers, wishes or will. It's not really the same amongst our gods, you know. They're not architects of the universe that are, you know, play,

like the humans are not their play things. You know what I mean? Like it's, it's, it's, they're doing their thing and, and, and,

and, and, and, and, we can enter into some, some, some, some sort of, a, uh,

semblance of like a contract with them through our rituals and through our practices. We can, not all the time, not necessarily every day, but we can, uh, pray to our gods.

We can, uh, sacrifice or, or gift or, or what's called, uh, you know, sometimes what's called bloat,

uh, or, faining, right, we're, we're, we're giving a gesture of gifts to the divine in hopes of receiving gifts back. And that's a very common concept in paganism as a gift for a gift.

So we are doing things and we are trying to appeal to our sacred powers through the exchange of gifts. We give to them in hopes of receiving gifts back. And we see this happen in many cultures as well, right? When crops were not doing so well, what do the people do? They, you know, it would sacrifice to their powers, their sacred powers. in hopes to appease them and get better crops and all these sorts of things. If they were losing wars, you know, it's, it's time to, to sacrifice somebody or something. Yeah.

To try to make it better. So, yeah, we're not doing, we're not doing all that kind of stuff anymore, but it's, uh, yeah. It's not, not the sacrificing of animals or people, obviously, but it's, you know, the gifting exchanges is what I'm referring to. Yeah. That just made me think of, um, I don't know if you've seen, let's speaking of TV shows. there was one that came out recently had a phone it was on AMC or stars or something but it was one of um let's see let's see uh the guy who wrote sandman he wrote a bunch of other american gods

the series oh yeah yeah did you see that one or you were aware of it at least yes yes yes that the beginning scene yeah scene of that like well we're warriors and our god is a warrior god and so we're going to fight each we're going to we're going to divide in half we're going to fight each other and whoever's living will will will accept the you know accept the sacrifice hopefully and it was that the wind started to blow and they got back on their boat and they were finally able to leave this shore they were trapped on fascinating uh depiction of that i mean i got they gave me chills oh yeah that's fantastic i like that i like that how they uh i forget his name but whoever they the guy that they cast for mr wednesday yeah uh and that's oden you know what i mean

votan as he says that was yep and then that was a that was a great great representation of that and and just how he, uh, that whole scene where he's like calling himself by different names and he's got his wolves and his ravens and it's like, you see him in the clouds and it's like, ah, yeah, that's they did a good job with that. Oh yeah. And this, this may not be your perspective on it, but be as an agnostic atheist not subscribed to anything. I try and understand these things through my own framework.

And I would say for the non-believer, and that goes for if you're not a believer in the Christian faith or vice versa. If you are a Christian, you're not believer in the heathen faith. The way I look at it on a metaphysical level is there are, you got to pray to the right gods or pray to God if that's your, if that's your thing and perform the right sacrifices in life. And that can mean you go to the gym today so you don't have a bad back tomorrow, that kind of a thing.

There's a sacrifice of today's effort and energy to get a gift from the universe tomorrow to have your efforts pay off. But more than that is the idea of praying to the right God. So if what you're looking for is wisdom on a particular subject, you go to Odin and you try and perform a sacrifice that you try to in a sense invite into you the spirit of Odin to say give me what give me the benefit of the element that you control the the aspect of your archetype let me invite that spirit into me um i don't know if that comports with kind of how you're thinking about of rituals or um kind of like embodying archetypes like i'm trying to

be a wizard in practice that kind of thing yeah yeah yeah there's there's definitely parts to that um that apply to heathenry, you know, because different gods are talked about in the myths as being more or less associated with specific things, you know? And one of the things that Odin is associated with in the stories is wisdom and sacrificing himself to himself to obtain that wisdom. He cuts out his own eye to receive a drink from Amir's well. He hangs himself on a tree for nine days and nights to receive mystic knowledge of the runes. So there's more than that to him, but that's a big component. That's a big aspect that that Odin gets associated with. So it's not uncommon to see people take that literally.

So when they're in their practices in trying to learn the runes maybe or gain wisdom, try to invoke Odin in that part of things. Got to be true, you got to be careful with that, though, because Oden's also very cunning. And you don't just get one part of Oden, you get the whole shebang. And so it's a, it's a big, it's a big undertaking. You don't just call out or ask them to come by without knowing kind of what you're dealing with. For sure. Yeah. And then, of course, you know, anyone out there in YouTube land, you know, we're not recommending rituals of eye removal or hanging oneself from it. No, no, no. You know, that kind of thing. These are definitely, yeah, yeah, yeah.

We performed different rituals. These are gods. Yeah. I mean, again, you look at the stories. It's like these, these were divine beings that did these things.

So yeah, by no means, am I advocating that we, you know, harm ourselves. Well, yeah, no, no,

for sure. That had to say it officially, and also because I think it's funny, funny to say that. But there's also fantastic, I think, symbolism in these things, like specifically those two

elements of Odin. What happened or what does it mean to have removed a, and I know, So my understanding, you can correct me, please. But our eyes look at the physical world. They're designed to interact with and interpret and navigate the physical world. He removes one.

And now one eye is only, it only has internal vision. It can only see within because it's no longer distracted by or focused on the outside world. So the lesson or the story, I would draw from that. And I think I think it's accurate. But like I said, you tell me is that in order to gain the kind of wisdom or understanding that he had, you've got to take one eye and turn it inward. You have to look at yourself as much as the external world, not be distracted so much by it.

And there's, in my estimation, some parallels on that of like the idea of Jesus. And he says, you know, the world will hate you if you're doing the godly thing. It's like there's an inner thing that is not of the external world that is at least of equal value, if not superior. But I'll stop there and let you kind of comment on my take on something, which I may not know anything about.

Yeah, no, I think there's something to be said for that, you know. and he's not the only, you know, that's not the only example. And, you know, we're talking strictly like, you know, Norse myth. There's other stories and other myths that carries similar stories, you know, or examples. But, like, he's not even the only figure in the mythology who sacrificed part of himself for the greater good. You know, Tier lost his hand. You know, he sacrifices his hand to, bind this giant wolf who is destined to destroy all the gods, you know what I mean?

So there's other parallels to that, that I think as far as the eye thing goes, yeah, you know, it's your vision that's how you capture everything. But it's also like a window to your soul, you know, like you can tell a lot of a person by just looking them in the eye. and giving that part of yourself up really is like it's heavy duty, I think, you know, because you're, again, you're handicapping yourself and giving yourself the less ability to capture things, but also kind of restricting or altering the views that are coming into you, too, you know, what people see. Definitely. So I think that's a really, I think that's a really good observation, you know,

know how the significance of the eye you know could have been anything it's like cut a finger off nope it's it's it's the eye yeah and definitely too you that that was a price here and uh was it um fenris fendrous fendrous is the wolf and that and then fenris and rear oh gotcha yeah um and so uh it's fascinating too because if you're in the snowy northern wastes and you're a um you know looking at your environment for exemplars of and no wonder you would think there were ice giants because everything's ice everywhere and there's giants in the hills and whatnot. And, you know, literally or figuratively, I go figuratively. But also you're looking at your environment and you're like, well, there's something powerful

to the idea that wolves were probably the only predator in that area that was really terrifying to man. There were other, there were lots of dangers of the, you know, it's fallen in the icy river and freezing to death and, you know, tree, all kinds of different things, accidents that could happen. But as far as like a powerful force, you don't want to be out alone in the dark, in the night, snow and a pack wolves is on your trail so one of the of course the the destruction the cyclical nature of say a human life is that's what that's a world ending catastrophe is i'm alone with this wolf that's

going to devour me so of course the the icon of the wolf looms large for that says we're going for the evo cycle angle angle on things um but then it makes sense too and and i like that idea of the cyclical thing i think i think there's more of that even to christianity than people realize i think there's a misunderstanding and maybe and maybe not maybe I don't know what I'm talking about I'm trying to be cautious on that and there's lots of people who disagree but I think I don't think there's one apocalypse coming

I think the idea of an apocalypse is circular it's the ending it's an ending of things it's you go to school you suffer you sacrifice you have trials and tribulations you come out of it with with a diploma or a degree or something that terminus is an apocalypse the end

of your school life the end of your life as a student, and now you begin on another life. And there's, there's an apocalypse to the day and night cycle, uh, that, you know, the night ends, the day begins, et cetera. Um, I think there's more that than people realize and there's not as much, I think a lot of it is we use different symbols and language. And, and there's different hierarchies of, of importance. Don't get me wrong, religions are not all the same. But there's a lot more similarities than people realize in terms of, uh, because we're all starting with the human condition. And that, that is universal. And then it,

We diverge in the explanations for it. I don't know if you had comments. I'll stop rambling. Random wizard ramblings. Random wizard ramblings. I like it. Yeah. I, uh,

you know, I was talking with somebody. I think it was actually my dad, um, years ago and, you know, there was always, you know,

when I became pagan and I decided to do what I was doing and and have been doing, uh, it was, you know, understandably so, right? They,

it was, it was met with some opposition by my, by my family. Oh, it's just a family. Right. Yeah, well, that or it was like, well, you know, come back to a, come talk to us when you've, you know, gathered your senses and you've come back to your, you know, your senses sort of thing. And, you know this is wrong, blah, blah, blah.

But like one of the things like my dad was always saying is like, oh, yeah, look at the way the world is now. And yeah, it's the sign of the end times or the end, the end is near. And I'm like, dad, people in Europe were probably saying the same thing during the bubonic plague. The Black Death, that's first thing into my mind. black death. You know what I mean? Like, because there's even stuff like that in the Bible, right? You know, divers diseases and, and, you know, how, you know, wars and sickness is everywhere. I'm like, look at what was happening, you know, six, seven hundred years ago in Europe. They were probably thinking, this is the end. And maybe it was. Maybe it was an end.

It surely was. I mean, there was an end to a lot of things. There's an end to a lot of people. We had, we, we experienced the global pandemic just a few years. ago. And we still see the effects of that happening to this day. So it's, and I'm sure there's other things that you can sit and think about that have happened in the world in history. That's that been documented that people at the time were probably going, all right, this is it. And it was it for that time, for that moment. But then there's a next thing. There's another thing. So, yeah. I think it's a. And then he also. I also got to look at too. I think that, you know, what are we, what are people reading nowadays? They're, they're reading translations or, or transliterations of text that have been worked over and over and over and over again. And, and it's like that old game telephone, right? Where, you know, you say something in one person's ear and then by the time it gets 15 people around, it's like a totally different story. Uh, you know, how accurate can we really say any, almost any, like, ancient texts are as, as, as well as, as, as, well as,

they could have been preserved over the centuries over the millennia, there's probably things that have gotten lost in translation that what we're reading don't really mean that with the way they were originally written. That is a big problem. I mean, it goes for the Christians, I'm the most familiar with that in Greek mythology and stuff, but a lot of people don't realize that the translations of the Bible have been misunderstood. And two big examples are, you know,

the idea of thou shalt not murder versus thou shalt not kill. A lot of people think all killing bad. Well, the word basically meant murder. The original, I think it was the Greek or Latin or Aramaic, whatever they got it from way back in the day. The other one was the idea of the meek shall inherit the earth. And I didn't learn this until recently. I think Jordan Peterson brought it up or something. But he said the word translates more like people who have swords and know how to use them but keep them sheathed.

So it isn't the meek as in the harmless, the ineffectual, the people who couldn't affect change if they wanted to. It's people who could absolutely be terrifyingly brutal and evil and say that's wrong. I'm not going to do that. Those are, and the idea is that that's the kind of people we want to lift up and say as an ideal, perhaps. You know, those are the true, worthy inheritors of the earth. Interesting. That we should all become those kind of people.

I was going somewhere with that. Mistranslations. Very interesting. Yeah. So it was one, I watched the documentary recently, where the part of it at least was a guy who went to some village in northern Europe, and it was to learn the oral traditions of this particular group of people. There are local teachings or more of a,

it was some kind of religious tradition. And there was an old guy, and he only knew it in his head, and it had never been written down. And this guy went to learn it because when that guy died, that was it. No one else knew this story. So he went to learn that. And I can't help but think that that has happened with a lot of these things or like things get left out or the more dynamic, adventurous, romantic versions of these stories get preserved.

And then, you know, maybe filtered through the translations at the time, which could have been late 17, early 1800s when people were discovering these things and trying to preserve them. I think I think is it actually the story? I don't know if you've come across that in terms of like you're going with your best guess or you've actually found some more authoritative sources that you feel. are like, this seems to represent it pretty well. I don't know if you have an opinion on that. Well, I even know that, like, with some of the stuff that, you know, again, no sacred text, but like some of the stories, the myths, the lore, the sagas of Northern Europe,

some of the things that have been written down in modern English over the years are starting to be rewritten and reworked because scholars are finding new things out and going, oh wow, that word that was originally translated, you know, 50, 60, a hell of long years ago, that's probably not that word because education and all this stuff grows over time and people come into the mix

that bring new perspectives, new knowledge. And so, again, I think that the same thing is what happens to, when was the last time the Bible was, the Holy Bible, right? When was the last time that that book, was revised. We got so many different translations of it, but when was the last time?

Yeah, yeah, I mean, like, you got the new King James, and you got the new international and the Living Day translation, and I'm feeling like a box of chocolates version. I mean, you know, like I'm saying, like there's so many different versions and translations. When was the last time it was reworked from anything? And is it really just people taking, you know, modern English language and putting a twist on it?

Because again, you know, I remember growing up reading the King James Bible because that was the only version of the Bible that we could read. You know, we didn't even read other versions or translations. It was that was it, the KGV. And I remember thinking as a kid that, you know, Moses and Abraham and all these people, they were talking like Shakespeare. Because that's how the, you know, and I'm like, wait. I grew up. I grew up. I grew up and again, start thinking for myself, I'm like, hold on a minute. They weren't British. They weren't, they were Middle Eastern. They were speaking, they were speaking, they weren't even speaking modern Hebrew. You know what I mean?

Yeah. They were speaking, you know, ancient Hebrew and Aramaic and those words, those languages that are all but dead now. So how do you translate stuff from that, from those, those texts? It's kind of like how, it's not. of the stuff that I've into gets translated into modern English. You know, Old Norse is not spoken anymore. At least not in the real, like, yes, academically and in certain circles it is.

But, and there are modern languages that are close to it. But Old Norse, old English, all these old Germanic languages are, are, for all intents and purposes, dead languages. Yeah. And so you get scholars and people that come in that, that read these old texts and bring new life to it. And like, oh, yeah, you thought it said tree.

no what it actually means is you know house or something and that's an example so no for sure and that's that's the thing too is like there's a lot of nuance to words even today like you you'll you'll look in the dictionary and there'll be like six or seven different definitions for a single word because there's different shades of meaning on it depending on the context maybe six or seven is too many but let's if we go with that like this is the ruin and they thought or the the word for tree and they're like no it's house so wait a minute it means a house specifically made of wood versus one made of stone. And then not only that, but there's an idiom in that, maybe, for example, in that cultural

space where it's like denigrating someone by saying you live in a house of wood versus stone. It's like, oh, your dwelling is temporary. You're not, you don't really, you don't really intend to stay here. It's like someone who's just passing through and not intending to be trusted. I made all this up. But that's the kind of nuance you can get from one word saying tree, no, tree that's a house or it's a house made of wood.

kind of thing. And when you get that cultural context, sometimes it makes all the difference in things and really understanding what someone means by a particular story with those kind of elements. I mean, I'm learning that too in my kind of reworking of the, not reworking, of the ASOP's fable stuff. I'm taking out a lot of the the thy thou stuff, because some of them have it, some of them don't. I'm standardizing it. And I'm also taking some of the complicated run on sentences that didn't have enough parentheses or whatever. And just change. So I'm actually, you know, in my work on that, I'm actually changing the story from their original translation some 200 years ago when this guy did this book. But hopefully giving it, making it more readable, keeping the intent of it, the elements of the story. I'm trying to be extremely faithful to it and just make it like the sentences make sense. And they aren't full of, full of commas and reversed things and asides. It's hard to explain. But when you say it, if you look at the original version of it, and then you look at the story, I put together, it's the same story.

But it's just a little easier to understand what's going on without, you know, 17 commas in one giant run-on sentence. It probably has like similar. And again, I don't know, but it almost sounds like house, how, um, because like Norse poetry is written in meters and it has a very specific flow and pattern of, of how it was written. It doesn't translate well into modern English, the way that we speak and write. doesn't doesn't translate well so trying to take those things and make sense of it and you know because again like you you're reading it in the ways that it was written you know a thousand years ago versus uh and

and how people spoke and wrote back then versus how it's done now and it's it's that that's a huge thing too so probably similarly with what you do your your facebook well i think is maybe similar challenges right yeah and then what they were doing is the the original translations for the asop's fables came from people translating Greek, and they had a different syntax, I guess is the way to say, what made me think of it is like direct translations of, say, Japanese for anime, if you go to the direct translation, I think one of the words means this person is here. And what they mean is, I'm home. And that's the meaning of that phrase is I have arrived at my home.

But it's more than that is, it's like walking in the door, like an American person saying, hi honey i'm home or hey family i'm here welcome me you know it's like an announcement of of your presence in a in a in that way so but the direct translation yes and i got this this is just examples people webs out there going to go he didn't know he's talking about it's not the exact thing but it's something like that so when you get this you know when you get these um the translations on the screen and then you look at the actual words they spoke like that's not the literal translation here's the meaning of it and then it's spoken in that way I was going somewhere with that

it's probably the same with the North stuff and how it's spoken. There are things called Kennings that are that are seen a lot in in in in in Norse literature and what really all it is is is what it means is a like um instead of calling honey

honey like instead of saying honey they would use it they would say something like bees sweat or something like that you know the bees sweat or um you know, uh, thing, things like that, you know, uh, so you were like, you, you could see those two words separate or whatever. And if you don't understand like the context, you could be thinking, oh, there's just, there's a bee that sweating. Like, no, we're talking about honey. Or someone might say, or someone might say that's stupid, bees don't sweat. Like, they mean, they're right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's somebody who doesn't want to get it. Um, I remember

another thing I was going to ask you about the whole, um, ritual type of thing. So we were talking about, um, you know, Easter having its own, a specific Catholic mass for that specific. where they have a particular program, they read certain things and celebrate that in that way. And so there was two things. The idea of the, a lot of the original pagan or holidays being kind of co-opted by the church in some ways, which,

and this is going back 2,000 years when they all set it all up, a lot of these things pre-existed. But also the idea that they're, the ritual itself, what am I trying to say? I had a better question like 20 minutes ago. So if there's a Catholic Mass for, say, Christmas, the winter solstice, what would that maybe look like if you have a gathering of pagans and what elements of the ritual would be common and what would they mean to you in your religious context? How do you celebrate that?

Well, the really funny thing about that is that a lot of folks want to say like what you were saying. is that these these Christian observances you know Easter and Christmas specifically you know well they were they were pagan holidays before they were you know co-opted or or appropriated by Christians not necessarily um the Christians had their own thing yeah yeah not exactly but the Christians had their own thing and and interestingly enough like you know you're talking about like Christmas winter solstice one of the big topics that comes up every year is you know Yule. And sometimes, even in, I think it's Sweden, nowadays, Yol, or Yol, in their language, is the Christmas holiday. You know, they call it Yol and it means Christmas, or it's their Christmas celebration.

But Yule, historically, before the Viking Age was not done at that time. It wasn't done in December, you know, right after the winter solstice. it was actually done later on in the middle of their winter. Oh. So when we talk about things like celebrating solstices, that really kind of goes into what type of pagan people are, right? Because some people will observe and celebrate things that happen on solstices and equinoxes. Germanic pagans will do that too, but I favor more of a historical side. I'm not like a hardcore reconstruction-ist type person when it comes to how I practice.

I do leave a lot of, you know, freedom to express things in a modern context. But the ancient Germanic peoples, they didn't, at least so far as we know, have observances for the solstices. Their holidays, their holy tides were circulated around the lunar solar patterns. So the full moons were when things were celebrated by them. and but so I mean you know I went off a little bit on the question but in terms of like the types of things our midwinter celebration is yule you know so it typically happens depending on when the full moon is it's sometimes in January sometimes it's beginning sometimes it's the end some years it might even be beginning of February but usually it happens to be somewhere in the month of January and the types of things that are that are going on there are very similar to what you might see at a at a at a Christmas, you know, party or a Christmas feast. You know, there's lots of food.

There are exchange of gifts. We do games. We host or we hold, at least our group does. Our group holds a thing called Sumbull, which is like another minor ritual that we see mentioned in different sources. But it's an opportunity to toast and boast

and give oaths. So toast, boasts and oaths is what we say. And then Sumbull is like a, it's a drinking sort of ceremony where there's drinks involved. But it's not meant to be like, let's all just take shots, shot, shots, and see who's left standing. It's a, you got to have your wits about you for Sumbull. So that's typically something that you'd see at like a Yule feast by pagans. Very cool. But yeah, like it's a midwinter thing.

And so the reason why we're doing it is, you know, that we've made it through the harshest times of the year. And in the north, in the far north and northern Europe, winter was serious business. And if you made it through winter, you're good. You know what I mean? Yeah. So we look at it as a time of celebration to look forward to the coming lighter days, warmer days, time to, you know, get out and about and enjoy nature more. You're not stuck inside from the cold winter months. And so it's, yeah, it's looking forward to the brighter and warmer days ahead and doing the types of things that you would do with people and with your friends and with your tribes or your communities and getting back out there and doing it all.

Nice. Well, I'm happy to, you know, take stab in the dark and be wrong and be corrected. And I love that you kind of went off on that a little bit and said, you know, a lot of different stuff about let me, let me not reframe it exactly, but kind of show what it really looks like versus popular misconception. there's a lot of people out there that have no idea. And that's where I'm coming from that place of ignorance of like, here's what I think. Here's what I've heard. Tell me about it.

But, you know, and in general, I think, so you said it's not borrowed from or adapted from necessarily between, say, old pagan religions and Christianity. I think there's a convergence, though, of,

what am I trying to say? The same idea expressed in different ways. Like, it's not that they took from it. It's like that they also had the same idea that these certain cyclical patterns were. relevant and necessary. Yeah, we'll see what was interesting about, like, specifically what's interesting about

the Yule Christmas thing is that, is that because Yule was historically observed, when it was observed, it got moved to the Christmas time frame. It got moved to that date and time by the Christian, by a king, because he was converting to Christianity. And the Christians already had their quote Christ mass. Which is what Christmas is. They already had that. So in order to convert the pagans, he's like, hey, guys, we're moving Yule. And it's going to happen now on such and such a day. Oh, and we're also changing our calendar. Yeah.

And instead of it being based around when the full moon was going to hit. So like, in other words, Yule for us, Germanic pagans, is not the same day every year, unlike where Christians celebrate Christmas on the same day, December 25th, every year. year. Yule isn't like that. Historical Yule isn't like that. It's done whenever the full moon is. That's why I said sometimes it's in the beginning of January. Sometimes it's at the end. Sometimes it may even be in February. It's the patterns of the cycles of the of the moon. Is it related to the solstice in like the first full moon after the solstice or something or the the winter solstice does have a yeah, it does have a play in that. So, so you will land on the, uh, the first

full moon after I think it's the first full moon after the winter solstice. Gotcha. Yeah. And it's three full moons after winter nights, which happens earlier in, it's around like October for us, but winter starts in the far north earlier than it does for us here in the

continental, like in my part of the country, at least continental United States. Further north you go, it's like you get all the way up to Alaska and it's just wintered, almost all year round until the mosquitoes come out for three months. Right. You like that.

And that's that's closer to where things were in, in Scandinavia, you know. So longitude, latitude, all that. It's, it's, it's, you're, you're kind of on the same plane there. Yeah. Yeah. So, uh, yes, the solstice does have, it's kind of a measurement. It's, it's not like, let's celebrate the, the winter solstice. But once the winter solstice hit, they knew, okay, well, the next full moon is yule.

Very cool. We made it, we made it halfway through the, the winter months. Yeah. And where I was going, uh, with, with the idea of the similts. is like, you know, not to say there's no difference, of course there is. But I think there's, there's, Carl Young would say something like a collective unconscious substrate to it, which is the recognition of patterns and the seasons of the year and how winter is.

And then also to do with human psychology. So what I've always thought, and I don't know if it's possible, I came to this thought myself and someone had already thought it or it's a new thought, who knows, or I heard it somewhere and I don't remember. but the idea that what what is the most necessary for human beings in the deepest darkest heart of winter where you know maybe you got to stretch the food out a little more maybe it's miserable outside and you can't frolic in the glen and it's just death and miserable and all the leaves are off the trees and all this stuff what is what is necessary for humans to survive well it's a little bit of celebration it's celebrating family coming together for a feast that maybe you've waited you've you've stretched your supply so you can have this one day where everyone has a good really good time and celebrates. Hey, we're all still alive. And I, you know, as opposed to, um, used to be big on, I still don't celebrate holidays is my thing, but as opposed to being like, oh, God, this, this forced ritual and

feel so fake and whatnot. I kind of came around to, you know, sometimes that's necessary. Or I would say, I've always been a bit of outside the fishbow type of guy. I kind of see why a culture needs those rituals now more than I used to. Even if I'm not, I don't feel any particular inclination to participate. I'm like, well, I'm glad other people do. I'm glad actually they're getting what they need from that. So I'd say the same thing with, you know, say in the spring, you know, whether you celebrate at the equinox or not, but there's a human need to recognize the rebirth of nature. The little buddy rabbits come out and birds lay their eggs and the green comes back onto the trees. And then we get Easter. And not only that, the Americanized,

commercialized version of the bunny rabbit laying eggs and hiding them and candy and whatnot, still a celebration of this rebirth type of thing, you know. Anyway, I love, I love those. I think people, I don't know, I don't know what my recommendation would be like people to have more of a comparative religion analysis of what are all the similar things and why? Why do we all develop things that serve similar purposes in different forms? I think it would give them a better, broader understanding of human nature and why these rituals

are important and why it's kind of important for most people to have them, no matter what they are. I think it was, I don't if it was Ellie Weisel, the guy that survived the Holocaust or not, but one of them was like, well, how do I know I think he wrote a book or wrote some famous thing where he was saying, well, how could I know religion was good or bad? Is it good or bad that people have religion?

And that sounds actually, I think of Elie Weisel because it thinks of me as like an atheist Jew perspective in some ways of like, I don't know, God, are you there? My life's been pretty miserable. I think it was him. But anyway, one of these guys came to came to the understanding that it almost doesn't matter what religion you pick, but you've got to pick one and commit. Otherwise,

it's not going to serve the purpose. You can't kind of be an eclectic mishmash and call that a faith in a way. Or you got to be like me and say, well, I step back from all of it. And I appreciate all of it from a distance, but I don't participate in any. But I'm not a little bit Christian,

a little bit big and a little bit this and that and the other. It's not coherent in a way that, that was his point, that, you know, if you're going to pick a faith, you got to commit and you can't, can't do a mishmash or hodgepodge. a eclectic mix of religions in that way.

So I don't know if I was going somewhere with that. That's just what I was thinking. Yeah. Yeah, I like the order that I found with what I do. And again, it fits. And there is structure and there is order to it in its own way. I know plenty of people who identify as, you know, eclectic pagans. And they incorporate a lot of different aspects of different cultures in their practices.

Hey, if it works for you. Fair enough. to bash it, you know what I mean? But that's the thing. It's got to work for you. You got to, you know, make it work. And everybody's on their own path. Everybody's on their own journey.

And that's part of it is figuring it out as we go. Yeah, fair enough. Well, I just realized we've been talking for like almost an hour. And you and I both have maybe about an hour left at the most. Last thing I wanted to do, I want to jump into the dream thing. But also, I don't know that we mentioned or I asked you much, how, how dreams figure into Norse the Norse religion or Norse paganism

I think we mentioned it a little bit in our talk but I wanted to expand on it a little bit more of like are there you said there were maybe some famous dreams and then how does that instruct say a Norse pagan person to understand their own dreams is there a framework in there that you feel you can explain or I mean I I can really only speak to just some of the little bit

I know that that comes up in some of the stories. So, I mean, in terms of how it fits into our framework, I don't think I can definitively say it does or doesn't. Obviously, people dream and everybody has dreams, and I think it's human nature to want to know the meaning behind them, if there is any. And so, we come up with our own ideas or maybe experiences that have happened in relative recent time of when that dream occurred, that, you know, we're like trying to piece the puzzles together. Like, you know, in the north side of things, you know, there's, there's some stories that talk about, you know, heroes having dreams and being visited by, you know, an ancestor or one of the gods or a valky or something, you know what I mean? Because of a battle that's about to take place or some big thing that's about to happen.

And that dream kind of sets the tone for what is to happen next, you know, like they think. think that, oh, now it's something I have to do because so-and-so came to me in this dream. So I think for a lot of folks that are along the same path that I am or similar path, there's a propensity to look at dreams as this sort of, you know, voice from beyond that that comes to us and gives us something to think about. Very cool. That's about how much I can say to it, though. Not a problem.

I was just wondering if there was a particular, I don't know, dog dogma is, you know, used derogatorily, but I think, you know, it's a set of beliefs around a particular thing. Here's how to understand it. Go, you know. Yeah. If there was a particular dogma, so to speak, around the importance of dreams, do you appeal to a particular God for dreams? If they come and they feature a specific God, is that meant to be a message in your understanding, or is it a little, you know, it doesn't really say much about that. So you kind of, you do your best with it.

I haven't, I haven't encountered anything like that. And in the north side of stuff, there's really not like a god. God of dreams, like, like, think the Greeks or some of the other pantheons of different cultures, right? There's really not, like, a god of one particular thing. The gods just are associated with a lot of different things, you know, and have, you know, associations attached to them from their characteristics or things that they're known for in the stories. Fair enough. Well, I think the fact that you were aware and detailed just a few of the types of dreams,

you know, a particular hero had a dream that was a message from a God or visited by an ancestor in a dream. These go along the lines of what would have been described as typical dreams in recent books and in the history of dream lore, the idea that humans have certain recurring patterns in dreams. And one of them is being visited by deceased relatives that bring encouragement, bring warning. And whether we believe they really came back, which, who knows, I don't know, I can't prove that or disprove it. So, or we just think, you know that we summoned that remembrance of them our our impression or image of them in our mind to give us the wisdom they would have if they were still here they'd say hey i know if they were and

we can imagine you know what would your grandfather say about you doing that thing hey come on he's not going to like that he would know he would call you stupid he'd hit you on the back of the head we have a dream where they we imagine these coming along okay you're reminding yourself yes i I know better than this. Whoa. Your image on my screen is going crazy. Just straightened out. It was going,

wanna, want to want to want to. Yeah, no, no. It was like, it was, that was amazing. I thought I was having a stroke or an acid flashback. Okay, okay, so to not short you out of time

and make sure we can do the thing. I'm going to make a note of the time because I always do that. What is it? It's about 59 minutes. Okay. Benjamin the Dream Wizard. wants to help you pierce the veil of night and shine the light of understanding upon the mystery of dreams.

Every episode of his DREAMs program features real dreamers, gifted with rare insight into their nocturnal visions. New DREAMScape's episodes appear every week on YouTube, Rumble, Odyssey, and other video hosting platforms, as well as free audiobooks, highlighting the psychological principles which inform our dream experience and much, much more. To join the Wizard as a guest, reach out across more than a dozen social media platforms and through the contact page at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, where you will also find the wizard's growing catalog of historical dream literature available on Amazon, featuring the wisdom and wonder of exploration into the world of dreams over the past 2,000 years. That's Benjamin the Dream Wizard on YouTube and at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com. 59 minutes how about that um okay as per my usual process we're going to get into the dream thing i'm going to shut up and listen and then we're going to try and figure it out together so i'm ready when you are okay so um i had this dream that involved a friend of mine a really close friend of mine and

um this friend of mine has become very much like a brother to me you know he's he's not related to me by blood but we're we're brothers you know We've shared enough experiences over the years that we are comfortable calling ourselves, you know, brother. But this dream happened, I want to say it was about two or three years ago. And in the dream, this friend of mine had this, like, medicine shop of sorts. He's very, he's very animistic and does, like, shamanic, he's, you know, a Norse heathen Norse pagan, but his practices leaned heavily into the shamanic side

of things. So he had this like medicine shop, you know, and I remember it was really lowly lit, you know, so it was kind of dark, low ceilings. But there was like lots of herbs, you know, healing items, oils, tonics and stuff just all throughout.

I don't know specifically about this next part, like the circumstances around it, but a particular ruin called Uru's, U-R-U-Z, came up. And again, I don't remember what the circumstances were about it, but I was holding this ruin in my hand.

And he said to me, I'm going to show you some wild expletive about this room. And then that was all he said to me, because I'm just going to show you some wild about this room. next thing I remember is there was a woman in the room that I didn't see or know of before. It's like she just kind of appeared. I didn't recognize her. I can't recall what she look like, or very many defining features. From my memory, from my recollection, I think she was kind of short but also like shrouded.

You know, like you really couldn't see much of her. Kind of thin, darker-skinned, almost like tanned. But she had a table runner that she laid down on a table, like a long white table runner. And she started painting on it. And she was painting symbols that I, you know, again, not like really anything specific that I'd ever seen, but they resembled or reminded me of Icelandic charms, Icelandic Galder Stavs, which in, like, this is very new, new agey kind of thing.

When I say new age, I'm talking like in the 1700s. These were like charms mandala type looking things. But they are also, though, like singular, linear lines with symbols and stuff on them. And again, the symbols that she was painting weren't exactly Icelandic. charms that I've ever seen, but they reminded me of it. They looked very similar. And then,

I'm reading the notes here, so they were, I said, I didn't recognize them. They weren't completely foreign. And hold on, I'm going to move something here, quick. Sorry about that. Take your time.

He was in another room. My friend was, while she was in the room, like, painting the thing, he was in another room helping someone else I don't know who that person was but he was occupied with somebody else

and then from that point on things just kind of got a little fuzzy like I guess I woke up from the dream but I don't remember much after that the woman in the dream never spoke like there was no talking

from her she never spoke to me she didn't say anything to him she was just kind of there and just like took this table runner out and started painting on it. Um, and then that's, that's about as much as I can recall from, from that. Okay.

That's good enough. That's plenty of stuff to work with. It's good. Great imagery. Love it. And don't, don't worry about it. You know,

things being, everyone says, that's about all I can remember. And then we get like a two hour conversation out of it. And there's so much more. There's always so much more. Just talking about it brings it back. Um, so we start with,

um, You're in your friends medicine shop. Do you remember anything about, say, you described a little bit of the environment, but how big was it generally? Where were you standing in the shop? Were you near the front door? Were you behind the back counter? Was there a counter? A little, a little bit of the physical layout.

What do you see when you think of the shop? So it was a small shop, low ceilings. I was in and it was cluttered like there was a lot of stuff going on there was not a lot of space to move so like the shelves that had like all of the various

like healing items herbs tonics whatever they were packed they were packed shelves so it was like kind of a clustered area very congested in a field and I want to say that we were kind of like in a central location

to the room I seem to to recall facing a doorway or a window, some sort of opening. But I never left. Like, I don't remember walking in and I don't remember leaving. I was just there, right? So it was, again, kind of a, if he was in another room, it was maybe a two-room structure.

But again, it was low ceilings. I don't, you know, like, I could do this and touch it. You know, like, it was not very tall ceilings. lowly lit. There were windows, but again, they were kind of small. So it didn't let a lot of natural light in. I don't, it was daytime. As I, if I remember, like the light from the outside was daylight.

Okay. Gotcha. Where am I going with this here? You described it as a lot of as healing items. So you associate his shamanistic practice as, um, is that the way I want to ask that question? Um, is that related to that person in real life? Is it, would you consider him, you know, because he is on the broadly shamanistic side of things, he's a bit of a healer, whether he's actually prescribing any, anything to anyone.

That is his approach. And he's what he's trying to accomplish with people. It's something about his personality. Yes. Yeah, very, um, uh, was it homeopathic? like the the natural side of things like what can you grow drink eat consume naturally that that grows in the natural world that's going to help your your health your wellness spirituality yes so this place is is very representative of him in that way like this is uh

maybe his natural environment type of thing so it's very much uh what what i'm seeing here is um what what makes sense to me, and you can, you might agree or not, but I think so. There's like a respect for him as a person, exemplified in this shop. And it's fantastic. If I just put myself in this room,

just the opening scene, suddenly you're there, you're near something, you're facing a door. I'm going to ask you what was on the other side, or, or if you knew, it was at the front door,

but we'll get around to that. But it's, it is, there's lots of iconic stuff. So it's very small and densely packed. So maybe representative of him, is like his impact is not large. He does, maybe he doesn't have a large clientele or a lot of people.

He's, he's running a very small operation, but it's serious. It is packed full of all the good things that he could give to people. Dimly lit in a way, which I don't, I think that in my estimation, again, always, if I'm on the wrong track where it doesn't resonate with you. But the idea that two, two things come to mind, that might be a bit of a bit of a bit of an iconic representation of the mystery of the herbalist is the dimly lit shop. So there's a bit of a media representation of that. But also, it might be dimly lit because that's not your specialty.

You don't have, there's no brightness of the light shining on all the things where you can read all the labels because you are intimately familiar with it. It's also, I would say, representing a personal mystery to you of like, you know so much about this stuff that I don't really, I don't know as much as he does. So I have respect for his, not skills, the wrong word, but knowledge, knowledge of, of, of, the herbalist realm. I'll stop there for just a moment. You know, he has a, because I've been out, you know, I've been to his house several times and, you know, being in the dream wasn't like being in his house. You know what I mean?

Yeah. But his, his ability to identify things, he's always in out in nature, you know, he's always foraging, you know what I'm saying? He's always doing hiking and stuff in the, in, in real life. And he's a crafts person. Like, he, he, his, his business. is to craft ritual items. So rattles, drums, he makes run sets themselves, just like I do, but also all of the smudging ones, like with feathers and things. Like he makes these things from material that he either sources locally or has sourced for him naturally and ethically.

Yeah. So there's a lot of that. Good deal. That's literally his life, livelihood. Good. Very cool. So yeah. So this is where I go with a lot of the stuff of like, where, where are we? Why this place? You know, what you were not in a cave in the mountains. You, you know, you were not at the bottom of the ocean. Why, why this place? So very definitely, you've got your real life friend there and you've got an expression of him and his practice. You've got a placing yourself in the environment there. And I think being dimly lit at a low ceiling, it's like it's up there's a, there's a, there's a, um, there's a, um, It's not intimacy is the wrong word, but it might be, but something of something of a closeness to it. It's something of a very small contained space. It was densely packed with with something important, meaningful things, all the shelves, crammed, crammed full of all the good stuff.

So why is that setting important? Well, it kind of gives you the context of like, okay, what's about to happen? And he even says, let me show you some crazy shit. There's something you wanted to understand or see through that lens of, okay, imagine you're in in a space that represents your friend imagine you're seeing imagine he's got something to show you his perspective on life his understanding of the world how he conducts himself he's if you look at it through his eyes in a way or or through an understanding of who he is now consider what follows from that initial context so we're going somewhere like that with that

um i don't have an idea of where we're going yet but we're going to get we're going there Yeah, I did want to come back to the idea of the door. You said you could kind of remember facing a door and was it the door to the other room or was it like the front door? If you think about it. Yeah, I think it was, again, if it was a door or a window, but it was a portal to the outside. Yeah. I was not looking into another room. I was looking outside of the structure that I was in.

I think that's a great way to put it to the idea of a portal. So a window, a window to the outside of door to the outside of portal. the idea of some place you could pass through where the light from the outside does shine. It was daytime, which I almost always forget to ask unless it comes up. I'm glad you mentioned it too. That can be, I can mean a bunch of different things. I don't know. Do you have any particular associations with day or night that would make it more relevant?

Things happen in the daytime. Daytime usually means, you know, it's the full illumination of when it's easier to see things, the brightness of day, the revelation of a clear sight type of things, There's a lot of stuff that goes into that. It either does or doesn't have a particular meaning. Yeah, I mean, I see better in the daytime. Just my vision doesn't make for nocturnal vision. He's of nocturnal vision.

You know what I mean? So I have a harder time navigating in the dark because of my vision. But maybe they're not in the average person. But yeah. I like the nighttime. I know, me too. Me too. No, but I have the same issue, especially like nighttime driving in the rain.

Oh, my God. don't just stay home i just don't do it yeah no i feel you okay that's i'm not much into the dream book thing of like one thing always means one thing to every to all people but there's common collective unconscious style human experiences and light and the fact that all the windows from the outside letting light in were necessarily small it's like maybe some indication or or to yourself of i'm probably never going to fully grasp i'm never going to be able to see fully everything that's in this place the my ability to receive, it's going to be limited, and that's okay. What I'm here to learn, I don't have to

see everything, but, but kind of acknowledging that to yourself of like, there's just not enough brightness of day to allow me full understanding. And that's okay. There's like, you know, I've known lots of people to do things that I can't. And I will never understand it as well as they do because they're just better at it and spend more time at it and practice at it and have a different concept of it than I'm really capable to grasp without embodying it the way they do. So it's nothing wrong with that's i don't think it's a comparison of yourself as lesser but like uh he's got he's got a perspective on things that i'm never going to understand fully but i can still benefit from i mean you're in the shop you've been welcomed into the space and you're actually there okay so the next

thing as far as you know did anything else happen before you had a feeling that the room was in your hand or was that almost like a jump cut uh or you just look down and there it was or you felt it suddenly How did that come about? Yeah, it was just kind of there. I don't have any recollection of how it got there. It was, yeah, I don't know how it came up. It was just kind of there. And which hand did it appear in?

I mean, I'm right-handed, so I would just, I mean, but I can't, I can't definitively remember one way or the other, which hand it was. Yeah, I don't want to say it was probably my right hand if that skews anything, but. I am leaning towards it. It was in my right hand just because that's my, that's my strong hand, you know? Fair enough. Nope. And you either, I rattle a lot of doorknobs.

I haven't said this in a while on the air, but I ask a question. You don't have an answer. It's okay. I don't know. No, no strong impression. Fair enough. If you, so this is one of the things I do, though.

Like I, and I've had this. I ask a question like which hand and they go, it was my left. Oh, wow. And then they have a moment. Okay. When that happens, it's fantastic. And when it does it, we move on.

So that actually could have been very relative. of it, I took a chance, whatever. We'll throw the, cast the next fly fishing, try to get another fish of inspiration. Did anything else happen before the awareness of the room? Like your friends speaking to you came afterwards. Yeah, there was really no dialogue that I recall happening prior to the ruin appearing. Okay. And then him saying what he said.

Gotcha. And I wanted to learn a little bit more about that ruin. You said, well, I don't know that you said anything. about it. What is that room? What does it mean? Where might you find it in your religious practice? So Urus, the run Urus, or

so that's the proto-Germanic word for it. Ur, like UR is another name for it, but it represents the hard U sound, so U, not like, you know, up or

umbrella or under. It's the U sound, but in the letter U, but that kind of hard who sound. And what it has been, there's room poems, you know what I mean? So every run has like a meaning to it

in the run poems. And this run, in the, in the, one of the room poems refers to it as the oryx, which was an ancient wild bovine that existed in northern Europe. So it was like an ox. And it has

representation of like wild reckless strength you know it's it's it's like a this this unbridled wild power because the the oryx were not domesticated cattle the people at the time had of course cattle that they would would raise and that was their wealth and and their livelihoods in many cases but the borax were a wild non-domesticated bovine that existed at the time. So it was like the representation of that, that wild power, that wild energy, that freedom, you know, sort of thing. Very cool. Yeah. And so the question then becomes, why that room?

You did not choose an alternative room to show yourself or to have placed in your hand by whatever powers it be, depending on how how the story came about. And that, so if we had an epiphany maybe about the hand that it appeared in, it would be, okay, why? Let's, let's say, sometimes I go off on these little, little tangents, but there's, um, there was a, I don't if it's in Japanese or samurai tradition that like, you know, the, the right hand was strength and the left hand was benevolence or something like that. And that's kind of very common, too. Right. Or in, in Middle Eastern culture, we'd say, like, the left hand is, um, you don't eat

with your left hand because bathroom reasons, you know. So sometimes there's, there's reasons for that kind of stuff. Um, but we didn't have a strong impression on that. And it would be like, you know, if so if a different person had a symbol of the wild, untamed strength put in their benevolent hand or the hand that they wipe with, it would have a meaning related to that perhaps because of their cultural context. But definitely it has a meaning to your understanding of that particular ruin. So there's something about in your hand is this, the symbol of this power of wild untamed power of maybe wrecked. checklist strength, strength that could be used foolishly to negative effect or impact. What am I saying here?

At the very least, you wanted to, go ahead. No, I was saying, I was agreeing with you there. That's all. It's, again, that's just like unbridled strength. You know, I can get things done, but not really care about how it's done. Yeah, if you get spontaneous thoughts or associations cut me off and say, you know, that made me think when you said that, I thought X or whatever. Right.

Most of the time I'm just rambling until inspires something in other people. Cool. But that is great too. So something about, okay, so we go through the story again a little bit, narrative arcwise. You're in the context of a shamanic healer space, dense with wisdom that's a little or knowledge that's maybe a little bit beyond what you can make the best use of because it's not your skill set. now within that context you're showing yourself an icon of the potential for wild or reckless untamed strength and then your friend comes up now that you've seen those things now that you've walked through that set and setting event then your friend appears or comes in or chimes chimes in

that he is going to show you um like how did you phrase it i'm going to show you some wild shit about this room. And that's interesting because, so the wild untamed nature of the of the runic icon, he's going to show you the wild shit. Yeah. And then that's how, okay, where was your friend while you were initially doing the thing? Was he already in another room or was he with you? He was with me in the room.

As I can recall, he was, again, it was a very small closed quarters. lay out of the room and he was in the same room with me. You wouldn't be able to be very far away in the same room. Yeah. Yeah. Were you already kind of in front of this table that the lady unrolled the stuff on? Is that what was in the middle of the room? Yeah, I want to say it was kind of almost like a,

not necessarily like dead set in the middle. It was like close to the wall that had other small windows by it. You know, so I mean, it wasn't like, up against that exterior wall, but it favored that side of the room. Sure. Let's set a little offset. Closer to. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That may or may not be relevant. I mean, I kept mentioned, I don't know how many times before we started recording the idea of centering you on the mandala in the background and how that, I thought, was a fantastic composition. We do that, we do that in our, in our dreams sometimes, too. It's like where we place ourselves in these things. So there could be something to the slightly offset nature of this table that would then become the place of learning or demonstration of this, of this woman that appears.

Um, may or may not. Yeah, maybe in your mind it's and this is where it gets really, really tricky too. You can't say one one reason for all people. It could be in your mind an apothecary shop of this nature. The table is always not in the center. Maybe that's just how your brain envisions it from, uh, you saw a movie. And that stuck with you and now that's your impression of it. Uh, it could also be, what am I trying to say? If we think of the center, the bullseye in a way, putting something in the direct dead symmetrical center of a room as the most important place, this might be, you know, could be if it makes sense to you or who knows um placing it off to the side a little bit is like this may not be universally relevant at all times but it's still useful information whatever you're about to learn it's it's still in the room it's still in the room with yeah yeah but it's not in the

center there's something to that that feels relevant to me is in this in this instance it may not be if if you're like i don't know that doesn't really zing but it's something to keep in mind sometimes i say to people it's like think of that concept of well it isn't symmetrical dead center like a bull's but it's in the room. As you said, like that seemed like it made sense to you too. Like, you know,

it's still in the space. I hadn't thought of that before. Yeah. That's what I do. That's what I'm trying to do is help help those, those interesting thoughts. And then how does your friend say those words? What tone is it,

is it ominous? Is it joking elbow? Is it, how would you characterize his tone? I would say, as I remember it, it was, um, he meant it. It was serious. Like, it wasn't like, I want to show you some wild shit about this room.

No, I was like, I'm going to show you some wild shit about this room. You know, he had like a serious business tone to him. Okay. Yeah. And that would be something very different if it was joking, if it was playful, if it was, there's a, uh, there could be a playful aspect of something of like the excitement of, you're about to learn some things that'll blow your mind. And you can smile about that.

But this was more like, I'm about to show you some things that are going to blow your mind. And they are very important. This is actually seriously. Let my tone communicate that to you. So that's interesting. It's going to dwell on that for like two seconds. Kind of think with that percolating my head too.

He's got a, and is that when like the moment the lady appeared, like suddenly the next thing you know, she's there unfolding the cloth on the table? Or did she approach? Was there a delay? Was there any, did he get up and walk out of the room at that point? And that's how he ended up in the other room.

Anything happened physically? Yeah, I think he left my presence. And then there she was. You know, like, he, he, he went to do whatever else he was doing. Like, I remember he was, like, I could hear him in the other room when this lady appears and starts doing what she was doing. Like, I could, I don't remember hearing anything of, like, the words. I just, it was chatter. essentially like i knew there was other people besides him in the next room okay or or outside of my

you know eyesight um but yeah he like he said what he said walked wandered off and then there she was yeah and that's interesting too so he didn't show you anything necessarily it's not actually him showing not in the dream yeah that's that's interesting not in the dream so here's here's the way i'm looking at that is like you're showing yourself like he's um what is it in a way there's like he's doing a bit of a path-finding service in your dream of the kind of like now that you're looking at the world through this framework that he that his unique perspective what he has of value to offer to the world you are within that space you have a ruin you study ruins this is important to your understanding your your uh religious

perspective on the world is is wrapped up in these ruins and the the tradition of them and what they mean to the poetry, specifically the story, the storytelling. He then says explicitly, you're going to learn something because of me, but, and then leaves. I'm not the teacher. So something about maybe looking at the world through this perspective or what he has to teach you about the world or a perspective on the world you can adopt in real life. It actually leads you to another source of information. that's actually external to him, but that he was, like I said, sort of that path-finding function of opening... He has... Go ahead.

I didn't mean to cut you off. Oh, please. But he has definitely shown me shit that kind of, like, after the fact, you know what I mean? Like in our actual dealings with each other outside of a nocturnal vision. Yeah, yeah. I mean, he's sown me some stuff, man. Like, he's definitely given that Uru's aspect of, you know what I mean. our relationship. But yeah, in the moment at that time, he wasn't present or part of that.

It wasn't like, I'm going to show you something right now. It was just this, I'm going to show you some shit. And then walked away. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. No, no, no. And that's, that's very true. Because like, um, what am I trying to say? There are phenomenon in life. Are you okay? I've got the, when I've got my chair, like in an upright locked position, like this, no room for this dog and he doesn't know it. He's just about falls off. He's hiding there in my lap. We definitely have friends who open our eyes to a way of looking at the world that even when they're not present, we're able to understand a new experience better or differently because of them. They have shown us. They do show us things because we know them. They allow us to see

the world in different ways. So I think there's something like that going on here. You're like, you put yourself in this context. You've got your friend there to remind you of who he is and what he does and why and he explicitly says you know hey this ruin i'm going to show you because of me you're going to be able to see something you wouldn't otherwise have been able to understand as well um and then what is that it goes into this now bam he wanders away because he's like i'm not even the one who's going to show you i mean you're going to see it thanks to me and in that sense but uh the true lesson is going to come from this other source and then this this woman appears and any in any particular way.

What are you doing, Bubo? Hi. You've got to sit down. If you want down, I'll put you down. Right. It's one of my many familiars here. And that's, he wants to get down.

Okay. Okay. Oh, hold on. You're attached. Say hi. Say hi to all the people. There he is.

Peanut butter. That should be my thumbnail. Maybe it will be. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Put him down. Let him right.

Sometimes he gets overheated. He wants to go drinks of water. us um and you know obviously no thunder clap no the clouds open and this woman appears she didn't teleport like star trek you just kind of became aware suddenly she was there no idea she came in through the door she walked out of a shadowy corner like she was always there any anything uh not like it was just nothing nothing that like stood out just she was just all of a sudden in in the in the same room fair enough yeah yeah bradley like vanished it appears out of thin air maybe but like again like no i couldn't say yet came out of a corner she came out of a closet

or yeah came down some stairs like nothing nothing like that it was just he walks away i turn around and there she is there she is yeah which is very interesting too it's like once you're if you imagine it physically um opening your eyes suddenly the world is in front of you you know and we think we say that metaphorically too oh my eyes were open to something your friend says he's going to show you something and now this woman appears and she only appears after he says I'm going to show you. I think that's, again, I think that's more just more confirmation that,

um, um, because as soon as you had the thought, the, the associative connection was when you realized, oh, I'm going to learn something or I can or I have learned something from this person. Now you become aware.

Your eyes become suddenly open. You can suddenly see someone new. So almost, almost a very straightforward metaphorical understanding there. Um, so, and you described her. And that's a fantastic.

description. I'm like, you said, well, I really couldn't see her very clearly. Fair enough. So she, you couldn't describe how long was her nose, what cover were her eyes necessarily. But, you know, that she was short, kind of shrouded, as in enough clothing to obscure her appearance. Like, you don't know if she was young or old. You don't know. She was older. She was older and small framed, you know, so thin. Okay. Kind of, uh, I got the sense. from her that she was an old lady, an old, thin lady. I just couldn't like what color was her hair. Her skin was visible, but there was nothing like that I could see in her face that was like, you know, other, other defining features. Her skin that was exposed was darker, like a really dark tan.

Gotcha. Any sense of gray hair or? Um, no. That I recall because again, like her, her, what she was wearing was like she was shrouded so it's like a clothes you know what I mean so it was it was very concealing to her major features gotcha very interesting there with this this so it wasn't it wasn't a person you knew in real life it wasn't any easily recognizable say um I had no idea who they were yeah it was so that that's where I'm going with it's like it's like it's so this is an unknown woman, but you know, it is definitely a woman. You know, is definitely an older woman.

Your skin is actually maybe a little darker, tanned, maybe came to mind. So maybe she's been out in the sunshine doing work. Maybe she's bringing that iconic representation of having been in the, in the light of understanding as carried on the dark tanness of her skin, maybe something like that, just a little flavor to the idea of maybe she's got something to say because, for whatever reason. but mysterious in terms of like it's not a specific woman it's more maybe um broadly we can go through many different layers of it but uh there's maybe a feminine perspective to what she's going to show you

it wasn't a man that showed up and said here let me show you from this so sometimes masculine feminine makes a difference are there true what is it are there traditional roles not traditional roles is the wrong way to put it, but like unique perspectives in Norse mythology that women understand certain things better, men understand certain things better. I mean, why would a woman come to teach you something versus a man if there were some mystical message to it? Any concept of that? And it doesn't have to be 100%, you know? Yeah, there is. I mean, traditionally the practice of like trans work and mysticism was, traditionally a

feminine thing it was done by the women Odin himself learned things from a a vulva assyris and any men that did it at the time were kind of looked upon

in a negative light you know oh you're doing the woman's work you know that sort of thing got you so yes the women had a status when when when they were they were called safe conan the the cirrus women you know they they did that sort of trans like work they did that mystical woo woo magical stuff sure back then yeah so this is the so good so it would be actually if we go with the idea that it's a woman for a reason and women are typically associated with maybe the mystical or um trans like work seeing uh see the C or the CER

role um what am i going with this kind of stuff so it's a person with kind of more metaphysical knowledge this wasn't a person she didn't unroll a blueprint literally for a building like here's how you build it and that's that would be a different kind of guy in a hard hat you know there's an iconic thing to that so there's something spiritual uh that she's trying to communicate to you some some deeper understanding um that that she wants you to see um and she does she unrolls this large and it's interesting that it's a table runner or at least and it was white yeah yeah and i want to say now that i'm remember now that i'm talking about it again i think what she would like i don't again the symbols weren't recognizable but to the best of my recollection they were painted and

red okay um i don't know if it was blood or if it was red dye i just yeah he's red paint for some reason it stinks out that they were the symbols were colored red on the white yeah table and it is interesting too i mean it could have been anything else she could have pulled out a big sheet of butcher paper and tacked it up on the wall it could have been she spilled sand all over the table and started drawing in it with her finger but but this table runner um after your after just being primed a bit maybe by our discussions of of feasts and different things like that that might be unique to your your traditions uh something about a table RONERNORN says, calls to mind something you would find on a feast table.

And the table runner is a decorative element, but you would also, that's where you would put all the rows of, maybe if you're having a communal feast type of thing, like that's, you'd line up all the plates of offerings, the things you're going to give to other people, the potluck dishes on the table runner in a way. And then people come and they sit on either side of the table runner and take from the middle. So there's a, there's a kind of, I'm going to stop. there and just lets you kind of tell me what you think of that general idea of linking it to feasting and and the placement of the type of item in that place on the table well so much yeah

i mean things happen at the table where yes it's you know you you dine but it's also a place where you socialize and and actually kind of you know exchange words and experiences and stories and there's a lot that happens at the table that is more than just you know exchange words and experiences and stories and is more than just eating. It's like a community building thing. You know, like it brings people together for more than just sustenance.

Yeah. That's what I'm getting at. That kind of thing. I didn't want to throw too many words at you. I figure you'd have your own better words. I think it does. So that's another piece of the puzzle in terms of the framing of what she's then about to do

is like instead of putting food, she could have put food on the table. She didn't. She drew room. ruins that were the more like Icelandic charms, more mandala like is how

you described it. So they're a little more decorative in a way. Yeah. But also telling a story. If you could read them, they would say something or not so much. Yeah, they have like the, well, the Icelandic staves or they are those Icelandic charms

in the there's a book about them. And again, they're very modern. they the oldest ones date back to after well after the Viking age and they're not even Norse in their origins which is the other interesting thing about it is a lot of people like this this Mandala that's behind me a lot of that's the you know this is nothing this is nothing Norse the the ruins are but the symbol itself is nothing Nordic it's it's it's Solomon Nick if you want to even get down that role it's it's magic yeah they're

magical charms and so different charms in this Golda Brook mean different things. You paint them for, or you carve them, or you place them on certain things, or you put them on certain places to achieve something of a magical outcome. You know what I mean? And different ones mean different things. And you can kind of make them up as you go. You can blend certain elements of a stav onto another thing and make it your own. So there's some free form work to it. But there's a whole book of Icelandic charms that shows you like what this thing that or the others for. But again, like, that's what they resembled. That's not what they were. Gotcha. They had, they had like a similarity to them. Yeah.

And then were you able to go ahead, yeah. One other thing I was thinking of is like, because she was painting them with, with a red dye or a red stain, like, it was painting. It wasn't, she wasn't a stamp. She wasn't carving it. She was painting it. And there's like this, there's a saying, there's a freight, there's a, uh, in one of the poems, there's a, there's a stanza or a verse talking about runes. And even though these weren't ruins that she was painting, one of the things that it says is

like, do you know how to carve them? Do you know how to read them? Do you know how to stain them? Do you know how to wield them or use them? Do you know how to ask of them? Do you know how to blood them? Do you know how to send them? Do you know how to sacrifice them?

And it's asking the, the person that's reading it is, you know, all these things can be done or should be done before you start using them or implementing them. You know, like, do you even know how to ask of them? Do you know how to send them? Do you know how to paint them? Do you know how to do all these things? And that's one of the things like just as many years ago as I had this dream is the first time I've thought of that connection with that particular phrase or that verse to that occurrence in the dream. Yeah.

She was literally staining something. She knew how to stain. Nice. nice that's why we do these things it's like normally okay i go in not certain at all we're going to get anything out of it and terrified that i'm going to be able to give the dreamer nothing we get a certain point along ask enough questions the dog won't stop barking and eventually i'll let you out in a minute i'll let you out in a minute come down get your baby wants me to throw his toy now he's had his water he's had his damp um he's like let's do it

He's like, shit. We're almost done, buddy. Hold on. Oh, boy. Anyway. And then we get to this point where some things start kind of falling. I think we're very close to something. When things like that start coming back out, what I would relate it to.

And then this, I asked this at different points in the conversation sometimes. But what was going on in your life three years ago that you felt like you needed to learn how to stay in the ruins properly before some. endeavor before you were you beginning on a certain journey at the time like uh you're just starting something or you're you're wondering if you're expert enough to to demonstrate something um so this happened in this dream is was in 2021 i remember now it was i said two or three years ago it was 2021 uh the winter of 2021 um i had just been out to, like, I had just been out there to his place earlier that year. If I recall correctly, I think that's the year. I had to have been the year that I went out there

to visit him for the first time. And it was also the first, that was also the year that I went on my first journey of shamanic nature, I took psychedelics for the first time in my life. Earlier, earlier. So I was like, November was when I had that psychedelic experience. And then it was, you know, into December or so when I had that district, the stream that I'm describing. It came after. Okay. Yeah, it came after that.

And I had been out to his place. And for the first time that, that, that. that right after that, uh, shamanic experience that, that psychedelic experience. Yeah. And this dream stuck with you for all those years since then.

Oh, yeah. Cause again, it's one of the most vivid things that I have recollections of in terms of dreams, like other silly things that I've, you know, encountered or whatever never really stick out in my mind the way this one does. Yeah. So you've got a very powerful.

So at this time you'd, the first time you'd been out to see this guy's place and he's got physical evidence of, his dedication to his craft all over the place. And then you represent that in your mind and the dream in a slightly different way. And also you have this, um, a desire for the, for the mystical in a way, you've got the mystical woman, uh, uh, who's maybe going to guide you on that path or at least a representation of, of the possibility of opening yourself to that kind of instruction. And this is all kind of culminating or leading up to the idea of you that because

you've had because you have access to a person who knows some things and can be a bit of a guide or a mentor in some ways if you step into their space where where they operate not not physically but you know what i'm saying um yeah and then and then you allow them to show you something or you look at things through their perspective then you could have at least the possibility to observe and and maybe begin to truly master the the the the standing of the Roons yourself and that this was a path, at least in the very least a path opened you. I wouldn't say it was prophetic, but you were considering, is this what I want to do? Is this?

Am I going to dedicate myself to this in a way? Yeah. Yeah. What's really interesting is that, you know, I have up to that point been working with the Roons for years prior to me going out there and prior to the psychedelic experience prior to going out there and seeing him. when I went out to go see him again right on the

heels of the coattails of that experience of that shamanic experience myself he had crafted a set of ruins for not just me but for my tribe for the people who I'm very closely interconnected with so they're relics of our group

they don't belong to me they belong to us and those were gifts that he presented to us as a you know as a representation of you know the matter that is working within all of us and within this tribe of ours. So, yeah, like, pieces are being put together now that I hadn't quite put together before.

It was, like, the timing of everything and when it happened and the why. Like, she showed up to be that source of knowledge or that, like, guide in a way, you know. Like, you may not know what's going on here, but this. This is kind of what it's all about. It's you don't always know. You just got to watch. Just just learn, just observe. Well, that too.

Don't ask. I'm not talking. You're just observing. He's learning from the master. She's doing it. Whatever she's doing. And that's fantastic. Like you said, for many years before that, you'd been working with the ruins or studying

the ruins. And there's a difference between beginner and someone who's adept. And there's a point where you kind of cross over where you go now and you're able to fulfill that, that. poetry, that that line of it, like, do you really know what you're doing? Before you start telling other people, you know what you're doing, or putting it into practice in a way that, what do they say, a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. You think you understand something better.

You're playing with powers you don't understand. This may have been like that, that line of saying you're, you have the ability, like, in a way of, what am I trying to say? A self-acknowledgement type of experience where you're like, I can learn this. I can become adeptive. standing the ruins. And whether or not you will or want to is a completely different thing of saying, I actually believe this is possible that I can lean into that and if you choose to. So, wow, that's good. That's a, yeah. And we're running out of time, but that's, I think that's all we can

get out of it. And I think it's left you with a little bit of a feeling of a, oh. Yeah, no, yeah. It's great to be able to divest into it and flesh it all out and talk about things. And honestly, I haven't talked about this particular dream since, well, I brought it up to him the other day and kind of reminded him about it because of some recent events. But he,

up until the other day, we hadn't talked about it for years. Yeah. Nice. So now getting a chance to flesh it out. And there's a reason I came back and then he found me and you were able to talk about it. Yeah.

Yeah. I'd be very interested. I always want to hear back from Dreamers too. It's like, does anything change in your life? Now that you've been able to see yourself maybe more clearly. and the path you took and how this dream kind of crystallize some of that stuff and

and makes sense in retrospect now now what do you do now where do you go with that understanding maybe maybe you got to sleep on it maybe you don't know for a couple years but if um i always like hearing back from people what they've what they learned from from working with me and hopefully they've been able to put it into use yeah absolutely i know once this once this is up on uh on your channel i'll be i'll be sharing it to him and and others of course on my platforms because this has been really great. It's been a lot of fun. Nice.

Well, that's, I think that's a good place to wrap it up. I always drag these things out too long because I never know how to. I'm like, I feel, I sound like I know what I'm talking about, but legit autistic with social stuff. Like, have we talked long enough to say goodbye? I don't know. But I'll, uh, a southern goodbye. Right. Exactly.

Or as they say an Irish goodbye. Where do you go? That's, it's funny. It gets called an Irish goodbye, but it's, yeah, southern goodbye. It's actually ubiquitous. So many cultures have words for it. Um, well, I would just say this has been our friend. Jesse Athervagin from

Murphy'sboro, Tennessee. He's the host of the random heathen ramblings on the Midgard Musings channel on YouTube and other podcasting platforms. I'm going to put the link tree in there below. And for my part, I'll just say, would you kindly like, share,

subscribe, tell your friends, always need more viewers, volunteer dreamers, etc. If you want to see more episodes, help me make an episode. I don't always have a lot of people out there. I'm not that big yet. Someday, maybe. 16, currently available works of historical dream literature the most recent dreams and their meanings by horace g hutchinson um all this and more at benjamin the dream wizard dot com and just again jesse thank you for being here

it's a good talk like thanks for having me all right wonderful and everybody out there thanks for listening