Dreamscapes Podcasts - Dreamscapes Episode 159: Free As A Bird

Episode Date: March 29, 2024

Ann Swanson ~ https://www.meditationfortherealworld.com

Greetings friends and welcome back to another episode of dreamscapes. Today we have our friend Anne Swanson from Hawaii. She is the author of Meditation for the Real World. You can find that at Meditation for the Realworld.com. I just think that's funny. Pause for laughter. We're going to get right back to her in two seconds. Remember.

Right? It's on the nose. That's what I was trying to think of. It's like, whoa, how ironic that that is the actual title. It's perfect. Um, right back to her in two seconds for my part. Would you kindly like, share, subscribe, tell your friends. Uh, always need more volunteer dreamers.

You can tell it's been a couple of weeks since I had a new episode because no one's reaching out. Literally, I will talk to anyone. I want to talk to you. You got a dream. We can make an episode. It's that easy. Um, 17.

Currently available works of historical dream literature, the most recent dream, uh, the fabric of dreams, excuse me, by Catherine Taylor Craig, uh, lovingly recreated, reproduced and enhanced by myself, if I, uh, may say so. Um, all this and more, of course. at Benjamin the Dreamwizard.com, including mb3 downloadable versions of these podcasts. You can take the wizard with you wherever you wander.

I love alliteration. Also, if you'd head on over to Benjaminthreamwizard dot locals.com, it's where I'm trying to build a community and where I would prefer to receive any sustaining donations. It's attached to my Rumble account, or you can also find my interviews and video game stuff.

I never promote the video games. 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. Pacific. I play video games. So stop on end. that is the longest introduction of me ever. That's enough about me back to Anne. Thank you for being here. I appreciate your time. I'm so glad to be here today.

Very nice. So I didn't ask too many questions in the beginning. But then I never really do like beforehand. I just try and get up, how do you want me to introduce you and what's what books or projects are you working on? So you, I see in the background there, you have other books, the science of yoga and you've got your new one. Yes. Yeah. So you are a yoga practitioner, a, I mean, say a little bit about yourself.

Yeah, I'm a yoga therapist and I also am a meditation teacher. And that's what my recent book is about. But the first book is Science of Yoga. And it has really beautiful images of the poses and the science, the fascinating science behind yoga. Oh, yeah. And then, you know, yoga made it. big impact in my life. But the part of yoga that's made the biggest impact is really meditation because I was not a naturally chill person. As you're going to hear with my dreams, I've had a lot

of anxious dreams. I've actually had quite a few sleepwalking incidents also with dreams. Not uncommon. I was not naturally chill. And meditation supported me through that and has really helped to me deal with, you know, I even would pass out in the most inopportune times. So meditation has been critical for me to be just like functioning humans. And if I can meditate, then anybody can. Yeah, that's fascinating. So I mentioned my historical dream literature. And this is what I, what I consider my, you know, personally constructed master class in how to do this thing right. What is this thing that I'm doing? How does it work? What does it look like? How do we define it? All that good stuff. So one of the,

A few of the fascinating things is how they've tried to categorize the different phenomenon that occur around sleep. And that goes into things like narcolepsy and somnambulism, sleepwalking. And those can be related very much too. So you'll have a lot of people who have narcolepsy where they uncontrollably pass out, fall asleep in the middle of while they're driving, just nap time. That can also be related to sleepwalking incidents where their body is. falling asleep when it should be awake and acting awake when it should be asleep when that, when that disconnect switch is flipped between what I'm experiencing internally and controlling through nerves, the muscle actions that are associated with the thoughts.

So, okay, long story short, coming back around to you, did you find that a practice of yoga for you, if affected somnambulism and narcoleptic tendencies? I think managing my anxiety in the end. is what has really affected it. My quality of sleep is so much better. Like my, my bed calculates my sleep. I got 100% last night, 100% the night before. So I'm really excited that my quality of sleep has gone up so much over the years. And I really credit that to meditation and mind-body practices. And if you improve your sleep, it can improve so much in your life. Oh, no, absolutely. It's like, not optional.

It's something human. It's like eating and breathing. You can't just stop and be healthy. You have to do these things. And you get your diet and your quality of sleep affecting. And your level of exercise too. So of course I don't have all the answers yet working on it. But one way I do that is through these interviews with folks who I think each have a piece

of the puzzle that I'm trying to pull together into my own understanding. So my connected thought was that because narcolepsy and sleepwalking very much appear to be physical phenomenon, not psychological phenomenon in that sense, even though there's a brain, soul connection to experiences of anxiety and stuff like. You can influence those things behaviorally. And they can be brought on behaviorally too. Long story short.

But my thought was that there may be some benefit to the physical practice of. yoga in addressing the physical causes of sleepwalking and narcolepsy. Maybe that's just not something you've run across, but I thought to ask. You know, it's said that when there's a problem in the body, whether it be the narcolepsy, which I never thought of as a problem in the body or sleepwalking or chronic pain, you know, the solution is in the mind. And when there's a problem in the mind, the solution's in the body, right? So that makes a lot of sense to me.

And it's the mind-body connection is so strong that also the anxiety tied in there, you know, my physical exercise and movement practice would help my mind. And then the meditation practice does help my body. I also have suffered from chronic pain since I was a teenager. And the biggest impact has been meditation on my chronic pain relief, which also helps sleep, by the way. Yeah, for sure. Well, that and that's the other direction to go with this.

is that there's there's a physical experience of anxiety. I mean, when we're, we say we are feeling anxious. It isn't just an emotion. Like even our emotional states have, have a kind of tangible physical. Yeah, yeah, you feel it in your chest there. There's a, um,

I'm playing this stupid little game on my phone. It's called robot minor. And you dig, dig, dig, dig down. And there's brown blocks you can dig through. And there's gray like granite rocks. You can't dig through. Well, if you dig under one of those, gray rocks you can't dig it will fall and crush you and if you're going too

faster you're not paying attention all of a sudden you'll find yourself flattened and I get up I get a jolt I'm like oh no and I feel that I'm like what just happened nothing happened I did not get hit with a rock I watched my character get hit with a rock and I felt it physically so there's definitely that mind body connection from the idea of you know if you're feeling physical symptoms of anxiety say and you're trying to fall asleep good luck it's not happening you're You're going to, your mind's spinning. Your, your, your, your, your guts upset.

I mean, maybe you could say a little bit about how that changed for you, what you were experiencing before and then how meditation influenced it. Yeah, because, um, I came first to the physical practice of yoga and Tai Chi Chi Gong. Chi Gong. I mean, the physical is what attracted me and probably because of my anxiety, it, it gave me that relief. But, you know, we'd get to the end of the yoga class and they'd have you lying down and guide you

through a relaxation, a meditation. or you'd sit at the end. And that's the point where I'd be looking at my watch. It is time to go. I have things to do. This is a waste of time. Like I was not a natural meditator. But I remember one particular time where the teacher did a technique that helped me be able to get

a glimpse of what that meditative experience is like. And we can do it right now. It's very physical. So you're going to take your shoulders and squeeze them up toward your ears and pucker your lips and squeeze those. muscles those muscles that are often so stress and ha release drop them down we'll do it two more times you can even sigh it out so inhale squeeze exhale release last time squeeze squeeze that tension out out out and drop shoulders down the shoulders dropping the head gently lifting up if you're

watching the video you probably see our shoulders are a little low You might feel that in yourself. I do. It feels perhaps like a weight has been taken off your shoulders. Now I know what's happening physiologically. If we zoom into the muscle fibers, when they squeeze really intensely like that, afterwards, they have a capacity to lengthen more. So they're literally relaxing and lengthening more. You didn't know you were tense up in that area probably.

But you're teaching your body the difference between tense and relax. And that contrast, then your body's like, oh, wow, it does feel better to relax it. Let's try that. And we would do that head to toe. Imagine doing that your feet, your legs, the whole body. And then afterwards, I was like, whoa, I can finally relax my mind. Now that my body has relaxed, it's like a natural muscle relaxant. I speak of this in science of yoga.

Also, I speak of it in my new book, Meditation for the Real World. It's called progressive muscle relaxation. and there's signs to support it for two main things, anxiety and sleep. No figure. So that was really the moment where I was like, oh, okay, this meditation thing, maybe I should really stick around for this part of the class and not check out. Yeah, very cool. I think a lot of us need that, especially maybe if you're like me, there's, I call myself

a credulous skeptic. I'm willing to believe just about anything, but I need some evidence. So if someone just says, look at this, it's like magic. And I'm like, well, okay, I naturally kind of believe, okay, maybe magic as possible, but it has a work. And really, what does it do? Does it have the, is it snake oil or does it have the intended result? And it feels like it does. And I mean, certainly you're here to say, it worked for me at the very least.

And, you know, when it comes to a lot of these practices, it is not, it's not a drug that's going to alter your body forever, the chemistry of your brain. It's not a surgery that's going to cut you open and rearrange you. It's basically got no downside to give it a try. You do some yoga. It's not for you. you move on. No harm done. It's one of those things. You know what though? It will alter your brain chemistry significantly. Fair enough. Inside our brain, we have access to all the pharmaceuticals and the chemicals that we synthesize, right? Let's take, for example, serotonin. Let's take, for example,

melatonin. Everybody takes melatonin supplements. Well, if you actually watch the sunrise and then go out on a midday walk and then watch the sunset like take little meditation breaks you know walking meditation in the middle of the day sunrise take a few deep breaths before you have your first cup of coffee notice the blues in the sky that tells your brain to release some cortisol which is actually really good in the beginning of the day because it wakes you up and then when you watch the sunset there's like reds in the sky and oranges and pinks and that tells your brain to release melatonin naturally. Now, if you go back in and you look at your phone and you don't have the red light filter on your phone, the night shift, then what's going to happen is all that blue light's going

to ruin it. All your melatonin will be gone. Flash on the bathroom light, it's gone. You want to keep the lights dim after sunset in their house too. But actually literally going in nature, watching the sunset, taking a powerful pause, integrating a little meditation into that. That's going to help your sleep. So those sort of like science-backed benefits, you know, I like to, I integrate it into meditation for the real world to convince people like us, these skeptics that are like, no, I need to know why. I need to know how it works.

And then I'm going to be more motivated to practice and also ways that I can enhance it so that I can like go deeper in it. So we do have access to all these chemicals that are in our brain. and meditation changes our neurobiology, neurochemistry, immediately and long term. It helps you balance it. Fair enough. I think that's, yeah, and I didn't mean to discount that connection. I think you're very right that it does, that it's a, but more, I would say it probably does it

in a different way than taking a drug does, so to speak. And it's one of those things, or maybe not exactly, but I was aiming more towards the idea of the risk factor. You know, you're at less of a risk trying yoga than you are trying a new drug you've never taken before. Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. You're going to do less. Certainly, yeah, you're going to do it without side effects.

Side effect is, I might be a little tired. Positive side effects. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the worst thing, you might be a little sore from stretching and you might be a little tired from holding a pose. I mean, we get over these things. But it, yeah, but it isn't like, that was the distinction I was trying to draw. But you're very right to point out that, that nuance. I think it is absolutely valid.

But one thing I was going to say about your books, though, is that that looks like they look like books you'd find in a college course. They'd look like a college textbook. I mean, were you kind of aiming towards that kind of rigorous, you know, the diagrams and the explanations and things like that? Yeah. No, it has the diagrams. Actually, I just opened to the diagrams about brain waves, which we should talk about in a moment. For sure. Meditation can put you into the same brain waves as deep sleep.

But the book, this new book is. really for anyone. It is densely packed with the research, but in an accessible way that's kind of like fun to read as an adult. We like picture books too. I had a New York Times illustrator work on this with me in. And it's got the science for the skeptics out there, but also the step-by-step practices so that you can actually apply it. Like most books out there are either written by a previous monk or neuroscientist and one may not be practical in its application and the other may not include the application just the why so I really wanted to incorporate both like why do it and then here's how you do it to help your sleep there's a whole section on improving sleep

and here's how you do it to help anxiety or loss of a loved one or when you're feeling like overwhelmed because you're doom scrolling or you feel fomo there's meditations for everything in the book. Very cool. Those are a lot of the great, great, significant, I would say, sources of stress for a lot of people, you know, is, yeah, that, that, you know, the doom scrolling, oh, it's all, it's all so terrible out there in the world. And, you know, and then the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, the, joneses, jones's type of stuff is like, oh, look at all this fun. Other people are having. Look what other people have been able to accomplish. And we get

down on herself setting so many of these expectations. And I think a lot of the, what's another thing that so in a slightly different but connected connected being there's a lot of body work done with folks that say have emotional dysregulation type of stuff like in the borderline category and a lot of getting in touch with your body progressive relaxation physical techniques that people can do to kind of get them reconnected to the physical get them out of their head and into their body in a way I think that's a fantastic way to do it and a lot of people intuitively understand the idea that if you just put down what you're working on and go take a walk, let me get you away from your obsession with the project and your frustration

with what's right in front of you. But it also has, but you have to physically relocate. You got to do some action with your body. Go ahead. Yeah, you know, we're not wired to have the like change of context that we have when we're scrolling.

It's, you know, war going on in the other side of the world. And then all of a sudden you see your ex. is now married with children and you have to process that and then you see you didn't get invited to this party and it's just one thing after the other like our brains are wired to handle tree person one or two at a time person one or two people right that's how we're truly wired and so it's overwhelming to process that and it it puts a weight on us and we are also constantly scanning for

danger. That's completely natural is to kind of have that negative bias. Our brains have a negativity bias. And so it makes us worry more. But instead of being worried that the saber tooth tiger is going to get us, we're now releasing the same chemical cocktail when we look at that stressful email, as if a saber tooth tiger is coming after us, but it's not going to kill us that email. So meditation gives us some perspective to be able to step back and observe. And not believe our thoughts. It's not stopping your thoughts. It's stopping believing those thoughts. Yeah. That's a, that's a big thing that, well, I mentioned, but before we started recording, I spent some time working inpatient psychiatric. And I always tried to, I mean, over time,

what I tried to do is what's the most important thing I could tell this person right now, because I may never talk to them again. I'm a shift staff who is caring for this person for a brief time. I've got a brief moment to connect with them, to understand where they're coming from and what they what might be most useful. And one of the things related to that that I would tell people is, um, sometimes you get to get an idea out of your head and just hold, look at it.

You know, and you're not going to, you're not going to push it away. You're not going to hold it close as if it's necessarily true or you're validate it. You're just going to say, okay, that's a thing. I don't know what to do with that thing. And you don't have to know what to do with that thing right away.

You can just let it be what it is. I don't, I had a thought. Hmm. I'll just let it be a thought. That was a, that was a big help to a lot of people. Is that kind of what you're, we're talking about. Exactly. That's what meditation is. People think it's stopping your thoughts or chasing after them. It's instead just observing them. And naturally, they do slow down, right? When you

have it sitting there in front of you, it just, you don't have to do that. It will naturally happen. And you stop believing it. You become an observer. It's not like you're in that, you know, conversation where you're just engulfed in it. Like you're noticing it. Through the day, we are so engulfed in this negative often mindset, you know, this voice in our head that's often telling us very critical negative things that we forget. You know, we don't have to listen to it. It's, it's not us. It's, you can observe it. And that by nature will start to slow it down and change its potency. So you stop believing it. Yeah, definitely. Well, you'd mentioned a minute ago, And it just came back to me.

And so I didn't want to forget. But the idea of the brainwave states, you wanted to talk about that for a minute? So meditation brings us into brain waves strategically. So right now we're in beta brainwaves. We're speaking. We're, you know, if you're listening to this, you're listening and evaluating it and taking note. And that's that, like, active state of mind for often.

And meditation immediately brings us into alpha brain. brain waves. That's that more relaxed state. And we can also go into theta brainwaves, which are typically dominantly seen like in children. It's really like creative, spontaneous sort of thinking. Meditation does bring us into that. Now, certain types of meditation bring us into what is only typically seen in deep sleep. And that's that delta brainwave state. And that's that state of rejuvenation and recovery and one particular type of meditation where you're lying down called yoga nidra, sometimes called non-sleep deep rest. It's where you're lying down and you're guided. Often you even do that progressive muscle relaxation as part of it. And it's longer these sort of

practices, but they put you in a sleep like state. It's kind of crazy because you'll be awake to observe going into delta brain waves. And you'll kind of like, you know, that twitch you get right when you fall asleep, but you catch yourself, you get that. And then you're like, whoa, I'm, I'm asleep right now. Like my body is asleep, my mind is asleep, but I'm able to observe what it's like to be in that healing state, which is a really cool thing. So that's pretty recent research that they found that yoga nidra and certain types of meditation bring us into that recovery, delta brainwave state. Nice. Well, I think that's probably the most natural transition into the dream discussion. I mean, you brought us some recurring dreams. And, you know, so speaking of that

state of mind, we can look into what may have been going on in your mind at the time. You feel ready to, ready to share that? I do. I know. I have like so many dreams. We might have to, I have the recurring dream, but then I have the sleepwalking dream, which might be a funny story to cover, too. I think it shows the anxiety. It's always up to the guest. Whatever you feel is your most pressing concern, whatever feels the most relevant. I mean, I wouldn't worry about being entertaining. I think all of it is pretty fascinating because we've got a mystery. Like, what the hell is going on here?

So either way, we got a mystery to solve. I find them all fascinating. So if it's more important to you to kind of put a pin in the recurring dreams, we can do that. Like if you haven't. Let's do the recurring first because I started having this as soon as I could think, like as a toddler. Benjamin the Dream Wizard wants to help you

hears the veil of night and shine the light of understanding upon the mystery of dreams. Every episode of his dreamscapes program features real dreamers gifted with rare insight into their nocturnal visions. New Dreamscape's episodes appear every week on YouTube, Rumble, Odyssey, and other video hosting platforms, as well as free audiobooks exploring the psychological principles which inform our dream experience and much, much more. To join the Wizard as a guest, reach out across more than a dozen social media platforms and through the contact page at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, where you will also find the wizard's growing catalog of historical dream literature available on Amazon, documenting

the wisdom and wonder of exploration into the world of dreams over the past 2,000 years. That's Benjamin the Dream Wizard on YouTube, and at Benjamin the Dream Wizard. Dream Wizard.com. On to being a small child, I believed the dream. And then I still continue to have it to this day in my late 30s. So I think this one's pretty potent. It is a very common. Yeah, it's a common theme, I think, for people.

And I think you'll also see that, you know, that anxious state, that like natural anxiety that I've always dealt with, you know? For sure. So, well, the way a lot of folks want to, or what it seems intuitive, to them is to say, let me tell you about the general concept of this dream and the themes I've noticed, which is good. But I want to get there the other way around by saying, what's the most recent instance of this dream? And then once we kind of dial in what that might mean to you specifically, we can look at how it connects to the other ones. Okay. So yeah. Yeah.

So more recently, but always, I am trying to fly. And I have. And I, I have, instead of the arms spread and soaring with like wings, I have my hands, like, you know, like imagine your thumbs and your armpits like chicken wings and I'm flapping, flapping, like so hard, it's like stressful, I'm panting. And often, you know, I can get a few inches off the ground. Sometimes, sometimes when I'm doing really well, the highest I've ever gotten is the treetops. And I'm like, whoa. like I am doing good and people are somewhat impressed they're like wow you're you can fly not everybody

can fly um but it's such a struggle like I get tired and I fall down I start going lower down um but it's not an easy like you'd imagine like I know like I've often wanted to to soar and that's what I do want to do in the dreams but it's just a struggle so the the most recent instance of this was pretty much a repetition of the exact typical pattern. Yes, but getting as high as a tree top recently. That's the highest I've ever gotten. Tree top or sometimes the reference point is like a, I think this one, there's tree tops and there was the wires, the electric wires.

So as high as both of those in this one. But it was a struggle. I could only stay up there so long and come down. But that is the highest I've gotten ever. I've never gotten to the clouds. trying to wrap up my notes here. Yeah. Okay.

So that is, that's how we start. You just kind of tell me the dream. Then we go back through it again. So I've got a, I have a process, but it's not like a intentional process. This is just how it started. Like people told me the dream,

I'd say, okay, wait a minute. Let's go through it again. And then that just became what I do. So we got the deep dive portion. Now, this is where we start pulling some things together. And then that kind of blends into, you know, part three, which is getting an answer that kind of tells a story. that kind of tells a story about why this type of thing might be happening to you.

Where were you in a physical environment? You said there was trees and telephone wires. So you're in a city. You're in a forest. You're in a particular place you've been before on a vacation. What's the physical environment as far as you can tell? As far as I can tell. It wasn't one particular environment in this recent dream.

It was. know, kind of more rural. And there were people present, but it wasn't like a city sort of people. It was like just a few people present that's not anyone in particular, I can name that I know, but I knew that they were like familiar people kind of interacting with me about it. But it was pretty just generic, generic, more rural sort of environment for this stream. Okay. And you knew it was rural because Derrude?

you know, or fields. Fields. For fields all around, yeah. And you were in a field of a, you know, maybe like low grass or something or knee high or? I think I went a variety of places. There were definitely fields and then the trees sort of area too. I remember being in fields at some point. Okay.

That were nearby. Good deal. Okay. So in the very beginning, you're in an area where at least around you are fields. and that's how you knew it was rural. There's people present, but they're not specific people, but they are familiar people. It's a small group of people. So, you know, I like to do the counterfactuals of like, so it was not specifically

your husband or your, you know, ninth grade gym teacher. It wasn't your boss from a previous job. It also wasn't a large crowd of anonymous people that were hostile. I mean, all these things it was not. It was a small group of familiar people, no one specific, but just. is the concept of familiar, well, at least you know them. They know you. And maybe you would assume a small group of people you're familiar with would be generally

supportive. And it would be not an intimidatingly large audience to perform in front of, so to speak. Do all these things resonate? I was wanting to kind of perform. I was wanting to do it and show them that I could do it. And some people were like, oh, that's cool. She can fly. And then other people were like, oh, okay.

Like it didn't really make a baby. big difference. It wasn't a big reaction from anybody in either direction. It was kind of like neutral, positive to neutral negative. Like, yeah, that's okay. I'd say that's significant too, the idea that it, no matter the response, and you gave yourself an impression of the range and that it was both positive and negative, but mild, but generally mild, just to give yourself that range. It wasn't people who are like mouths open oh my god and some people who are like she's so dumb uh it was just it was just kind of and that's interesting so we're just to hang on to that for a minute or put or or let it let it percolate in the background like just to acknowledge that it's there and and uh maybe come back

around to it but even if we don't address it again it'll maybe inform form where we're going so any any impression of how you of yourself in in that environment um how you were dressed specifically or not? No, no impression of how I was dressed, but more my feeling, my feeling was like frustration and I woke up as always like in the flapping where I'm starting to slowly lower down toward the earth and lose steam for it because it's such hard work to fly. And just kind of like general, like why, why am I making this hard?

than it needs to be, you know, like, why can't I soar? Why can't? It's a dream, like, especially close to waking up. You're like, realize kind of, it's a dream. But it's like, it's a dream. I can't make it. Now I haven't always realized it was a dream, but I do for this time being like, because it's been so many recurring. Like, come on. Yeah, yeah. As you're coming out of it, there's that, there's that kind of twilight haze where you're like, I'm becoming aware of myself, but I'm actually still experiencing the visions and the sensations a little bit. I've, I've existed in those moments and then that's, that's where I bring out things like, you know, it's like, it's ironic, the dream wizard doesn't remember his dreams. I believe everyone dreams

every night, the entire night. But the most I usually come out of a night's sleep with is, if I'm lucky, one, one recent instance was, I'm standing by the rear, the open, rear passenger side door of a white car. That's it. That's the entire dream experience. No idea why I'm standing there. Nothing is happening. I'm just standing there with an open door passenger side. Um, very surprised. I, I even recognize it was a white car, but like, what do I do with that? I, there's all kinds of things I could do with it, I suppose. And I've done more with less. But I, there's just, I, I really envy folks that have like entire narratives, adventures that they go on. Recurring. Yeah, yeah. And I do have actually one, just to, this just came to mine. I did have one reoccurring dream, but not reoccurring,

one flight dream, one in my entire life that I can remember. I was at the end of a cul-de-sac, and there was a brief stretch of road heading to a busy intersection, you know, a T-T intersection. And I did the same thing, but I was flapping, not chicken wings, but I was flapping my arms. And each, each, I was able to push against the air and raise a little bit. So I might have gone all of 50, 60 feet total. And it was just a slow parabola of me reaching a peak and slowly coming down before I reached the busy intersection entire dream.

Residential neighborhood, no idea what that means. But that was the one flight. I've never soared either. I've never just up into the sky. And then I've talked to people who are like, oh, I fly all the time. Like, you bastard.

I know, right? That's such a superpower. It's fantastic. Oh, yeah, long story short on that. I'm telling you my dreams. Well, I don't have any. So they're rare. It's like a gem,

a gem in the, in the discovered washing away the dirt. So, sense of yourself, no particular style of dress. I rattled doorks. They don't come open. That's fine. It was more this sensation of your feelings.

There was a bit of you wanted to perform in a sense of you wanted people to see that you had an ability, right? That's kind of that idea. Like, look what I can do. Not in the Stewart sense off mad TV. Look what I can do. And he just does something silly. But like, look, look, I actually have an ability.

Does that kind of resonate with you? Yeah, let me show you what I can do. I wish that didn't resonate with me, but that, That does resonate with me. Well, and I get that too, and that might be, I think that might be significant. You wish that it didn't resonate with you. Why? I wish I didn't care, you know, like whether or not people see or not, right?

There is that. That's a valid perspective, too. But I think that might be, not to put you on the spot too much, but I think there might be a part of you that is a, afraid is not the right word, but uncomfortable with appearing to draw attention to yourself. Like really, I want you to look at me. And that's, you're not comfortable with that want, the desire to be seen, performing, accomplishing. So I think it might be something there.

Just again, not to put you on the spot. Yeah, yeah, there is. But the idea of hang on to that. Me too. Me too. The worst possible. I haven't had a birthday since I was 16 years old. And now I've had birthdays.

I'm not dead yet. But my parents threw a surprise party and invited people. I wasn't expecting it. They were friends from school, sure. But it was a surprise. I was the center of attention. It was one of the worst experiences in my life of just, I don't want to be here.

I don't want to do this. And I feel like I'm being rude to people if I tell them to go home. And I just sucked it up and endured it. And there's, okay, so they were there to celebrate me. It's your birthday, buddy. We're here. We love you. And I'm like, I don't want to be the center of attention.

Please, no, no, stop this. But then there's another side of me too that's like, you know, if I do something skillful, I would like people who matter to me to recognize it and go, that was pretty good. You did a thing that was not easy to do and you deserve some credit for it. So there's, I'm in conflict with myself on that same thing. It's human nature. Yeah, I think it's human nature. It's like I am, I wrote a book and I'm here on promotion right now going on a podcast tour talking to different people about my new book. And my last book, the tour was canceled because of COVID. Oh, yeah. I sold everything I knew. I mean,

everything I owned to travel the world because the book is released in 15 languages. So I was going to Japan and Germany and all over the world. I was going to live on the road and then made it to South America my first stop. And then COVID hit. And so the whole thing ended up being canceled. So I haven't ever had the experience of like writing something I'm proud of or putting something I'm proud of out in the world and then like actually talking about it to a higher extent like I'm doing now. Yeah, yeah. I mean, the first thing that it strikes my mind when I hear

that is that's not fair. That's a horrible, that's a horrible injustice and I want to make it right. So I'm like, can you do it now? Can you just go and arrange a tour? Like, I released this book three years ago, but I'm going to promote it now. Is that something that's never crossed your mind or that's just not happening? It's impractical. Well, I live in Hawaii now. The whole thing like led me to this life that I love and I live by the ocean. So a podcast tour is perfect because I don't have to leave my home. There are giant turtles swimming in my backyard yet like earlier. And I can just take breaks out here and relax. And I just got married, met the love of my life through the, the journey. So I'm grateful for the journey and that it led me to do it this way. So it's pretty cool.

That's the flip side of it too. Is like I've had some catastrophes, disasters, bad things afflicted upon me. Maybe partly through my own fault. You know how that goes. And I'm like, I don't want this to happen and I suffer. And I come out the other side of it in a better place. I'm like, what just happened? How did that? How am I in a better place after a catastrophe than I was before? That blows my mind.

It seems like you're in a similar situation where you went through something that was, it robbed you of a dream and it was unfair. And you're in a better place now and you're like, no, this is good. This is better. Right? Yeah, it is. That's amazing. It helped me chill.

You know, I think COVID. was the great pause for many of us. And it, that time period forced me to meditate more. And I'm so grateful for, you know, slowing down and now taking pauses through my day and appreciating. And so it led me in the right path. As rigorously scientific as I am about most things, that's, that type of human experience is what leads me in the direction of magic and a plan. Perhaps I can't explain it. And I can't predict it. I couldn't tell you if it's going to have. happened to you, but it's happened to me, and I'm like, that's, blows, it blows my mind. I don't know. There's a better way to say it, but I'm just like, I can serendipitous.

Serendipitous. Yeah, it's serendipitous. Unbelievable. Um, long story short on that, long tangent out of your dream, but we got there through, um, you know, discussing the idea of, so in this particular dream experience, and I think you'll find this reminiscent of other experiences as we, as we get to talking about them. And as we dialed this one in a little bit more and kind of get the through line. You'll see that it represents itself in different ways. The setting might change. The people nearby might change.

The process you go through of trying to fly and how that feels to you and how it plays itself out. All those slight variations, even though it's the typical flying dream and the purpose is the flight, it's going to have shades around it that vary throughout your life based on the different circumstances you're in, the different circumstances of your life at that time. excuse me um so we hadn't got any further than the setting and who's there in the very beginning and how did you approach the the flight thing i mean did you was there a ritual beforehand or just wait if arms in the armpits and let's go um yeah arms in the armpits and you flap you have to flap hard i mean it is a struggle running a running start or in it's standing in place

I think I do run. Yeah, I do run to get that forward momentum as well. I do start running. That adds to the struggle to the exertion, the effort necessary. Okay. And then thinking back to the to the events as they transpire, you get a running start. You're putting in the effort. You notice the effort. How quickly do you? you ascend? Is there an arc, a trajectory? Is there a change of scenery? Kind of what happens next? This time, I mean, getting that high, I could feel as an accomplishment. Like, I could feel like, whoa, I've gotten this high. And it really, like, it's just at a diagonal, kind of gradual, getting up that high. It didn't take too long, but sustaining the height is what becomes difficult.

Kind of like you described, you know, the arc that yours creates. I mean, I can only sustain it so long, and then I start to lose steam and go down. And it's a soft fall. You know, it's the same sort of that you described, actually. It's kind of like you just keep losing steam. You keep trying, keep trying, but like your efforts can't keep you up. So you just slowly come down. Okay. And in the beginning, there were not actually trees or telephone poles or whatever, power lines. And but, but you noticed at the height. So you don't remember. That's fine. You don't remember. Yeah. I know, I know there was fields at some point and interactions with people. But this one,

I didn't have as much vivid until the end, which is where I'm really at the, at the tree height and then starting to struggle and go down. That's where it's like become so vivid and I'm waking up. So there's no specific idea of like I was up. I could see in the distance. I was approaching trees and telephone lines and then that's when I peaked. But you noticed it was at the moment when you realize this is the height of my journey or assent. That's when you know, you gave yourself this, this kind of, um, the concept of a benchmark, like, Like, what do we compare this to? And you're like, well, it's as tall as a tree or a telephone pole.

And that's, yeah. And so, yeah, what stood out of your mind was this idea of, and it's, um, we were talking about social comparison earlier and it gives us a lot of anxiety. It's like you, we always compare ourselves to something. Well, have I gone further than other people or have I kept at least kept up with what other people appear to be average capable of? Um, there's not a sense of that specifically. Like it didn't run through your mind.

Oh, I know this is what most other people can do. But nobody else is flying. Nobody else in the dream is flying. Yeah. I don't think ever ever I've seen anyone else in the dream fly. Yeah. But if you think of it from that perspective of like a benchmark or a, what other words might come to mind of like here's how to measure my accomplishment.

I don't know if you think about that. I think it was a new height. It was a new height, you know. So there was that feeling of like, okay, this is a. new height, kind of a little bit of accomplishment. But then ultimately frustration because I'm tired, because I bet I'm moving in some way in my body to represent the efforts, especially since I am somebody who has that history of sleepwalking and moving my body, you know, with my dreams, doing things like opening windows and like, you know, in my dream and I

literally open a window in real life. Like, I do that. So. I'm sure I'm moving. Yeah, those are the most dangerous thing. People have reported climbing out of a window onto a rooftop and doing cartwheels along the peak of a roof. I mean, that's something people have done in their sleep and, you know, cooking entire meals with a stove and open. Oh, yeah, that's a common one. Well, yeah. Or mid-knacket to me telling you that story.

My story is just as bad. Oh, yeah. Well, you get to some of that stuff and it's like, it's time to talk to a professional. And there's one guy, I think his name's David Sedaris from a PB. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Sleep off with me. Oh, no, I think it's Mike Bibiglio.

Barbiglio. He's the one that did it. That's right. That's right. Yeah, and he actually has to sleep in a... Straight jacket. Basically in a sheet that lets his head poke out, but doesn't let him get out of bed. And then he can move around all he wants underneath the covers.

That's, sometimes that's what you got to do. It's better than, yeah, climbing on top of furniture because there's an insect jackal. And I went back to sleep knowing there was a jackal in the room. Sometimes that's what you've got to do. But on the other hand, if you can get to the root of the problem, right, which is the anxiety. I truly believe the anxiety is the root of the problem. Like he, when he had his child, they had to lock doors in between him and the child because they were afraid. Like, what if he sleepwalks and does something to the child?

Like that's, you know, I think getting to the root of the anxiety, so you change that behavior is what I've done. And I think that's the better route than the straight jacket. But, you know, you got to do what you got to do in the meantime. That's true. You know, precautionary measures unless you can discover something else. And we don't know if he ever tried meditative stuff. I mean, he gave us some great stories, but I'm the Hulk. I'm the Hulk.

Yeah. It's such a good story. I don't even care if it's true. He could be making it all up. I don't believe he is, but that's just a great story either way. Okay. So for you, back to you. Sorry, I go on so many tangents.

It's possible. They're all relevant. There might be a reason we needed to talk about that stuff and then come back. We'll see. For you, so there was a, there was a moment of noticing when it became a struggle to, when you couldn't rise any higher and it became a struggle to even maintain that height. And actually, you're feeling like I'm, because it's a struggle, because I'm losing energy or my ability to maintain, that's as high as I can go. I'm on my way on the other side of the slope. So at that moment, there was something about that recognition that brought the idea of the height of people.

trees or power lines. And, I mean, if you're in a city, even in a city, trees are pretty big. And power lines, too, they're up there. That's, it's far enough that if you fell from that height, you're breaking a leg. You know, most people can't sustain that kind of day. So it's not an insignificant height. It's not inches off the ground. It's not into the clouds.

It's not shoot for the moon and you might hit the stars. It's, uh, you're still pretty high. It's, it's, it's, what am I trying to say? It's like it feels to me like it's not an insignificant accomplishment. It's a decent height. And sometimes it has been inches. So, you know, that has been typical, actually, is to be inches or just a couple of feet. Fair enough.

Yeah. So this is actually, as soon as you said that, that this is as high as I've ever gone, and it's the most recent dream. And you're following on the success of new ventures in life. You found an ideal, beautiful place to live, love of your life. You're married, successfully published, book tour, all of that good stuff. I mean, there's reasons to liken this to flying pretty high, you know, maybe not as high as, I am no Joe Rogan, but people like to talk to me. I'm happy with that. I'm flying at a decent level.

I don't want to be Joe Rogan, but yeah. Yeah. I don't think you do either. That's where I'm going with some of this. And it does seem to be related to your, and it's good to talk to people because it feels like it's related to your lifelong anxiety about, well, lifelong anxiety issues in general being said. sensitive in that regard, perhaps, and looking specifically at your, like, an honest self-assessment of ability to accomplish. I don't know if I'm going in a direction that feels right to you.

And also that way, we discussed a little earlier the idea of a fear of letting yourself be seen to be accomplishing. There's like a, like a, not a faux humility, but I think we all want to be properly humble. And sometimes we humble ourselves too much, even though we could be a little, more, hey, what I did was actually pretty awesome. And it's not prideful to say so. That was something. And I did it. And I'm proud of myself. And that's okay. I think there's a, there's a level of humility and accurately assessing your own ability. You know, that doesn't go too far. I'm going to

stop there and let you respond, though. Yeah. I mean, I think that that's true. And also part of the job when you write a book is then promoting it. Like when you get a book contract that they're not just paying you to write the book. They're paying you to promote it. Sell, sell the book. They want to make money too. Yeah. Exactly. So it's part of what you signed up to do. Yeah.

Yeah. So the theme that kind of suggests itself to me, and these are just, I just get ideas. This is not, I don't have all the answers. I'm not inside your head. You're inviting me in. So I shine a light around, stand behind your shoulder and shine a light around saying, you see what I see, you know, that kind of thing. So where I'm coming from on that is getting the feeling of an idea of,

wondering, am I good enough? There's something, something, I had better, I had a better phrasing for before I explained myself to death and then I lost my train of thought. But the idea of, or allowing yourself to be good enough or, you know, a lot of anxiety is, can I meet the demands of a situation, usually in a life or death context, Sabreto Tiger? But it's also the demands of the social pressures, the demands of keeping myself alive in just a normal context of, well, I got it, I got to do well at my job so I get a paycheck so I can

afford a place to live. There can be life-threatening elements in there too. And if you set yourself a goal of success, am I going to be able to fly that high? Am I going to be able to meet that judge of my success? And am I making it harder than it needs to be? Right. I think that's, that's what it always is for me is like, why did I flap my arms? Why didn't I just open my arms? Like, why was I flapping? Why wasn't I just- Handicap yourself a little bit by not getting, giving yourself full wing extension. Yeah, exactly. Why don't I spread the full wingspan and just soar and make it easier for myself? So I think that's what always comes up for me.

It's like, why do I struggle or make it harder than it needs to be? Which I think a lot of people with anxiety can kind of relate to is like the anxiety and the worries make it harder than it needs to be. And I've gotten them really under control, you know, for the most part. But obviously it's something, it's always there. It's human nature. Like when you have these sort of thoughts or like, am I doing enough or am I doing the right things, right?

When you see other people suggesting you do something else or something like that. Yeah. There's very much also wrapped up in this old habits being hard to break type of thing. Old mindset. It's hard to let go. of. So if you had, say, 30 years of approaching life through a certain intellectual lens of understanding, and then you discover yoga and really the power of meditation and it changes everything, you're still carrying 30 years of what if or, you know, that what if something terrible

happens? What if, what if I should be worrying more than I am? That's really hard to let go of because that's been our, that's been our comfort zone in that regard for the longest time. It's like, if I worry enough, everything will be okay. If I don't work, enough everything's going to shit. So you worry as much as possible to make sure everything is okay. And you're miserable the entire time. It's like, what a trap. Because you can't worry about nothing. That's not, that's not healthy either. It's some things you got to worry about. Yeah. It's like it's these tools of survival that we have to use in the proper, you know, the sweet spot, the golden mean, as, as they used to say. But what, what came to mind too is, is the idea of

more metaphors for, and that's, in my opinion, what most dream imagery is, it's dreams love puns, metaphors. It's similes. It's mostly that kind of stuff. And in image and behavioral form and whatnot. But the idea of holding back the idea of a timid half measures in a way. Not that it is exactly, but these are the associated thoughts that come to my mind. It's like if you, if you're afraid to spread your wings and fully sore, you're going to handicap yourself with the chicken wings and you're not going to get as far and it's going to make it extra. So you're going to struggle more than you have to because you're not fully committed. You haven't fully opened up to the potential because that's the more you open up,

the more vulnerable you are to failure to over-exerting yourself in a way that is counterproductive, especially if you're not confident, that's where the timidity came to my mind. It's like, if you're not confident you're doing the right thing, you're going to, you're going to approach it cautious. You can dip a toe in the water instead of jumping in both feet. But then again, on the other side of it, you don't want to dive head first into water, you don't know how deep it is. So there's like, again, that, that balance. I'm going to stop there for a second, see if you had any thoughts. Yeah. I feel confident in life.

I don't feel confident about flying. So I have always felt like if I could build that confidence about flying, it would bring me to that next level, you know? in life. It would open up that full opportunities or the full expansion, vulnerability. So it's like, it's like I feel in my life, in my waking hours, that I'm ready for that. And I do feel like because I've been improving my sleep, that I'm facilitating this environment where I could, you know, do the right thing in my sleep, too. I felt like if I could have this breakthrough in my sleep, it would align. And maybe the breakthrough in the life needs to happen first or the sleep happened first. I don't know what needs to happen first. But I feel like it's going to happen together is that goes to that next level.

So it's like I am confident, but I haven't like opened up to that next level. Yeah. And I wouldn't be surprised at all if you got back to me in a week or two saying, I had another dream and I was in the clouds, man. It happened. Yeah. You know, just be and this, that happens all the time with people that talk to me about, you know, I was like, when we get into what is this, what are you trying to say to yourself about your own experience. A lot of these dreams are thought experiments. It's a direct observation of ourselves. This is what it looks like where I'm at right now. Or a thought experiment. What if I approach something differently? What if how do I feel about a particular idea? What might happen if I approach this relationship with another person from a different angle? What do I

think are the likely results? We can think through all that stuff in our waking life. We do very often. But then a lot of times it gets into our dreams as well. And especially with these recurring dreams, it's like we've distilled certain self-concepts or situational understandings into very iconic forms, the flying dream, the falling dream, the being late or naked in class dreams. A sudden test you didn't study. The very metaphorical of being unprepared for things or being disorganized so it makes you late or suddenly having stability removed, falling off a cliff of. got nothing solid to stand on, nothing supporting me, not my friends, my family, not my own abilities. So we start with those layers of common, you know, human experience. And then we can drill it down. What is it for you specifically? So, yeah, especially if you've had this,

you know, lifelong anxiety issues, you've, it sounds to me like you've distilled it into the metaphor of flying and how grounded you are in a sense, in reality, and how far away from the stability of your own two feet, you're willing to allow yourself to go in a sense. Like something, something zing for you there. Yeah. Yeah. And it depends.

Sometimes we're told, don't let your head get in the clouds. Keep yourself grounded. Keep yourself practical. Yeah. I think I also, it's not like I don't want to be famous. That's not a dream I have.

But I want my work to be out there. And so there's this kind of, conflict where it's like, okay, well, what's the best way to get my work to be out there? I was like, probably have a million YouTube subscribers, right? Yeah. That's not, you know, famous. Like, people aren't going to recognize me on the street. So drop that fear because that's not even really famous. Yeah. I feel, I feel the same way too. Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I don't want a million subscribers. I don't want that kind of pressure. I don't need that kind of money even. You know, I'd like to make a little more than I do. But, oh, I don't want to sell a million books. I don't want to sell zero books.

was not okay and a million is not necessary. Somewhere in the middle. I want a certain group of people to say, hey, we liked what you do enough to pick up what you got and report this has value to us. Thank you for doing what you did. Just that validation. You know, it doesn't have to be excessive.

There's a couple of different ways to look at this too, is that you may be telling yourself you should want to fly higher. Now, that's one way to look at it. And it's maybe not as resonant because there is frustration in your mind with the inability to do so. It's like, so you may actually want to have that experience more than you feel you're able to or capable of at the moment or that something's holding you back from. But it also can be that idea of maybe I've got it in my head that I need to fly higher than

the treetops. Maybe that's actually impressive. I don't know many people who can. I don't know any human who can. So just that alone. It's very good point. Right. And even if even accepting it.

Yeah. Yeah. There may be some layer of it. And these are a lot of different ideas. Like I'm planting so many seeds like the next time you have this kind of a dream, something might change some different perspective on the experience of like maybe you do open your arms fully because we talked about it. Maybe you do get to the height of the tree top and you're like, I can just stay. I can just stay at this.

And it's effortless. And I don't. Do I need to go any higher? Effortless. Maybe I'll try that. That's what I'm ready for. Yeah. is that the struggle part of it is what I would like to go of.

And yeah, maybe the tree tops and having that different perspective would be a great place to be. And just to appreciate that and then to look at how far I came when you look down at the ground and be able to appreciate that. But also maybe I can look up. Maybe I can go on my back and backstroke up there and look up in the sky, right? Yeah. And there may be, there's so many different ways to look at this too. I mean, it may be that, and I wrote a, I think I wrote a tweet or whatever, Zit, whatever they call it now recently.

Don't follow me on X, by the way. It's a whole bunch of political nonsense. It's just has nothing to do with any of this dream stuff. But I wrote a tweet recently where it's like, I think there's a phenomenon with a lot of kids today. Kids today. I'm old enough. I got the gray hair, so I'm starting to talk about kids today. But I think the past generations have failed to communicate to future generations that merely surviving is a struggle.

It's going to take. effort just to keep yourself alive. And if you want more than that, you're going to have to work even harder. And it's like, it's not fair. It's not good. It's not right. It's just true. It's like it's hard to keep the human body and the human species alive. I think I'm questioning that. Maybe. I think I'm questioning the truth of that. And I think that's what, you know, I believed. And I do think my parents taught me that. And now I'm like, and especially seeing me and my partner, we go beyond what our parents had imagined for themselves and lifestyle and doing the things that we love and going for our dreams. And it's just like, I think that maybe I'm actually

questioning that. I have the opposite experience. I was taught that and I'm questioning, does life need to be so hard? Do you have to work so hard? Especially now that I'm in a career that's like my passion, right? Maybe it's like doing that is, it doesn't even feel like work when you're doing the things that you love, right? It doesn't have to be so hard such a struggle. And when it does feel so hard, you know, whatever, the thing that feels hard posting on TikTok, whatever, maybe that's not the thing you were supposed to do, right? Do the thing that feels, feels more natural for you. There's a lot of noise out there. And so I'm questioning whether it needs to be so hard. And I think, you know, meditation helps me question that too and relaxation and getting better

sleep. It's helping me question, does it have to be such a struggle? Is that me by nature? Like, right, I've labeled myself as an anxious person. I've been labeled as an anxious person. Is that me by nature? Does it have to be? Yeah, for sure. These are all great questions. And that's why I throw this stuff out into the world. So what I was responding to was a very specific thing of someone complaining about, say, a 40-hour work week. And now we can tease that apart a little bit and say, well, should it be, should require a 40-hour work week to survive?

Maybe, maybe not. But certainly there was a, my response to this person was, don't be surprised that you're going to have to break a sweat. This was my mindset is like, so if anyone was told the opposite that everything should be easier than it is. They're going to look at what is otherwise the golden mean normal amount of work and they're going to look at it and go, why is everything so hard? I'm like, is really? Is it really? So, and what came to my mind was the, was the Princess Bride quote, which I think it was just fantastic. You know, is life is pain, princess. Anyone who tells you different is selling something. It's like,

the human condition requires or is you're going to encounter a lot of unpleasantness, a lot of pain and suffering. It's kind of unavoidable. Now, it doesn't have to be pure misery, unending torment from one end of the other. That's off the scale too. It's not going to be heaven. and it's not going to be hell. It's going to be somewhere in the middle, but you're not going to get out of it without a few bumps and bruises. Yeah.

And maybe a little bit of worry and some tragedy. That's kind of where I was coming from on that. But no, you raise a, I don't feel you're contradicting me. I think you're adding that nuance of, now wait a minute, don't set the bar so high

that you are killing yourself to reach it because maybe you don't need to put that expectation on yourself. That was also part of what I was getting to. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I think both of them because, I mean, not to say I don't have a 40 hour work week, right?

Like the work when we work out, right? I'm going to work out right after that. That's a great example. Like that's hard, but you feel better afterwards. But it's worth it. And it's a good thing. Yes. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, or this concept of hormesis that we experiment with

as like things like exercise or an ice bath that I did this morning, you know, like to strengthen me internally. So yes, of course, we have to find that balance. But the worry, the anxiety, the should I be doing this or that, that extra that we add on top in our head, that's the part that, you know, does that have to be a struggle? Like pain is inevitable, as you said. And the philosophy of meditation supports this. Suffering is optional. The things you add on top of it, that's what I'm referring to.

So we're in absolute agreement is it's this balancing act. Yeah. And that's a great thing too to use those meditations for is to hold those ideas about like, are my expectations reasonable? Am I setting the bar too high or too low for myself? Am I capable more? Should I be a little less lazy? Or should I give myself a break because, wow, did I aim high?

And it's no surprise I'm not there yet. Maybe that's a reasonable thing to do as well. So I wouldn't be surprised. So if we've gotten a decent understanding of what this series of dreams seems to be clustered around. I can be that loose with it just just to give ourselves

some room to play with the idea. Then you should see going forward that these dreams as they come back they change and you're a little more a little more removed as we were saying from a little more meditative on the experience of the dream itself in the dream itself. So that's a yeah I had one guy

he had a same recurring dream was back way back episode 12. He had the same recurring dream over and over again. He would get into the backyard of this house and these shadow people would be there and they would just beat the hell out of him and they would not let him move past them. And in the very next dream, he got back to me and he said, I did not try to push past them as I usually do. I stop and talk to them and they were really cool guys. And they were just like, dude, we're just looking out for you. You're not ready for this.

And he was like, that blew my mind. I had a little reclump moment, you know, I'm like, I actually help somebody. So I'm hoping you have that same experience too where the next flying dream you have is. something's different about the stress, the strain, the struggle, the performance, the worries, the self-assessment, all of the stuff that's going on with it. Hopefully, pulling these ideas apart and seeing how they're connected to each other should give you hopefully a better experience of it next time. That's my hope.

I'd like to look down at the grass and the people and the things that are below me and be like, well, I've come so far. And I can go back down or up. It's my choice, right? Like, that's what it I'd like to do. Enjoy the flight. Enjoy the process of the success or the accomplishment. Yeah.

That's a big deal. Not worried so much about just making it happen, but enjoying the happening. Yeah. That's a big thing. Enjoying it. Yeah. I'm doing that in life. So let's do it in the dream world.

I think so. And I think the more you do it in life, the more it will be reflected in dreams. Like, yeah, this is more in line with what it's actually like for me in my lived daily life experience. That's pretty much where we pull our dreams from is what am I going through? What am I thinking about? What are my successes and struggles? So, well, if you think we've gotten a pretty good answer, I think you're almost out of time. I want to get you out of here before your time limit. Yeah. Good doing. If anybody out there, you know, has struggled with anxiety, sleep issues, definitely go to Meditation for the real world.com where you can check out

the book and also get the audio meditations because I incorporate. music that is specifically engineered to change your brainwaves. There's even a song at the end that's Delta brainwaves. It's sleep by the sea is what it's called and can help you get into that sleep state. So definitely check that out at Meditation for the Real World.com. Very cool. Yeah. Well, I'm going to do that again for you. This once again, this has been our friend Anne Swanson from Hawaii, author of Meditation for the Real World. You can find her book at Meditation for the real world.com. for my part please like share subscribe to tell your friends 17 currently available works of historical dream literature the most recent the fabric of dreams by katherine taylor craig all this and more at benjamin

the dream wizard dot com and head on over to benjamin the dream wizard dot locals dot com join the community there and i'll just say once again and thank you for being here great conversation thank you and everybody out there thank you for watching