Dreamscapes Podcasts - Dreamscapes Episode 172: @Roadtoserfdom3

Episode Date: August 9, 2024

Patrick Green ~ https://x.com/roadtoserfdom3

Greetings friends and welcome back to another episode of Dreamscapes. Today we have a very special guest, Patrick Green. He is currently of indeterminate location in the American Northeast. And he is a, or has been, a terrestrial radio host for the 90s, a professional database developer, audio engineering hobbyist, a podcaster, an Austrian economics enthusiast and shit poster extraordinaire on the X platform. You can find him at Road to Serfdom 3. we're going to get right back to him in two seconds.

For my part, would you kindly like, share, subscribe? Always need more volunteer dreamers. I'll talk to anybody. You don't have to be a personality or have any kind of following. You can just be a regular person. We all have dreams, and I'll talk to anybody. Also, more viewers for the video game streams, Monday through Friday, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. Pacific. Most days, sometimes I finish a game, and I take the rest of the week off.

This show brought to you in part also by 17, currently available works of historical dream literature. I'm going to feature this week ABC Book 3 I call my series Auguri Bibliomancy and Chaos It is ABC Book 3 O'Neuro Chronology Volume 1

Yes I invented that word And it's a mishmash of Greek and Latin I do what I want Don't tell me what to do It means roughly The study of the interpretation of dreams Over time O'Neuro chronology

Yeah It is a This particular three volume set is the evolution of dream interpretation, specifically, I think starting in the 1500s and leading up to the 1800s, these feature. It's an anthology set that features shorter works of historical dream literature, which would not make a full book on their own. So brought them together in an anthology so that they would not get lost to history. Of course, you could find all this and more at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, including downloadable mb3 versions of these very podcast,

audio only. You can take the wizard with you wherever you wander with or without Wi-Fi. I love alliteration. And lastly, because this is now the longest introduction ever, if you'd head on over to Benjamin the Dream Wizard.locals.com. I'm building a community there. It is free to join attached to my Rumble account. If you follow me on Rumble, why are you not already a member of my locals? I'm not charging any money. Come on in and say hello. That's where I'd like to, you know, get guests for these podcasts as well. Best place to contact me is on locals. And that is more than enough out of me.

Let's get back to Patrick Green. Thank you for being here. Appreciate your time. I don't know. Or is it? That's really cool hearing about all the series that you have. I almost feel like asking you questions about that. And I will.

You can interview me too. That's why this is Lucy Gusser. We do whatever we want. It's my libertarian streak. Yeah. And I think it's appropriate for me. It's something we didn't talk about because we've been chatting already for a bit. I know we lost so much good.

material that's okay we'll get it back yeah is that a there's a book that I should be writing and I'm planning to write which is I'm just going to call it bunker hunters and it's the follow-up to mass recall it's this projected future history of how civilization might look after mass recall after decentralization and try to address and anticipate some of the problems ahead of time and get people into the mode of thinking about addressing those problems. And I think you'll kind of understand this. Because we know that cybernetic social engineering and the conditioning of the movies and the subject matter of TV shows and books has definitely had an influence on people's psyches, right? And it sort of conditions them to

be ready for a certain thing. So why don't we use that to our own advantage? And I had the thought of getting people to think about mass recall, think about decentralization, and think about what it will be like when that happens. Oh, yeah. And it's just like with Star Trek, you know, we have this idea that we're going to have, you know, warp drives and be able to go faster than light. And that's not going to happen.

But we believe it enough. We're into the show. There are people now who would probably put a whole bunch of money behind somebody who claim to be able to do it, right? Oh, yeah. So definitely the culture has been changed by science fiction, right, in that respect. So why can't we change the culture of, you know, government, tolerance and actually just have people presume the opposite, right?

Yeah. There's a big, there's a big myth out there in a way or, what is it? It's co-opting. It's communist co-opting. They call it luxury space communism. It's not. They're not communist at all. It's a very merit-based system. And you go, you know, and there's people that still do commerce and they have what, gold-pressed latinum and there's still, you know, capitalism. And that's another thing, too. I don't, I don't like using, say, Marxist, terminology for things. I don't think there's any such thing as capitalism. I think what they're describing is freedom of association and private property. Those two things. Self-ownership and the ability to trade or not trade with anyone based on, you know, exchange, voluntary exchange of property

rights. I have a thing. I want your thing more. We're going to trade. Everybody's happy. Yeah. So Star Trek is not luxury space communism, not at all. Yeah. And obviously reputation and all that. But for sure. I, of course, I don't usually try to make any kind of. I don't try to defend the politics or the economics of Star Trek or like their own. Yeah. But it's more of the idea of the science. Well, yeah, well, more of the science, the fact that the trope, not just Star Trek, but all science fiction, this trope of interstellar travel faster than light, somebody will come up with a solution to it,

and therefore we can justify the story. Oh, yeah. And gets people into the idea, even though the thing isn't possible yet, really at all. So why can't we do something like that? get people to think about a decentralized world where there are no major super states, and they're really, you know, they're failed states. People start to think about this that way. And then have stories based in reality.

Like, you know, one of the things that they're doing is they're getting people used to the idea of the Walking Dead land, you know what I mean, where there are zombies, and every day you get up, and you're just lucky to be able to drink your coffee and smoke a cigarette, and later on there's going to be zombies coming out and attack. you so don't worry about saving or don't worry about your kids don't have any kids kill your kids basically this is all this fear porn and stuff is to put people into this state of anxiety i think and so why can't we use the same mechanisms the same propaganda things to try to

condition people for a decentralized world well yeah i mean that raises a very good point too which is that tools are tools they can be used for good or evil just like i i i'm trying to at some point I'm going to write a book myself on the other kinds of wizards. And there are evil wizards. You know, wizardry is just, it is what it is. It's like being a scientist of any other kind or, you know, an artist or a practitioner. It's like a gun. Harry Dresden is definitely a good.

Yeah. Harry Dresden is a good wizard. Yeah. No, and then there's a lot of people that, one idea that's really grabbed me is the idea of the necromancer as the archetypal evil wizard is like they're using their powers to make puppets, to make zombies. be out of other people to for their control for their own self aggrandize but you use people as tools for for for their for fulfillment or power sounds familiar isn't it yeah no exactly exactly

that'll be in the book some someday someday i had a couple other ideas too and i've got write these things down because i'm gonna forget i'm all i got the squirreliest of brains um squirrel like like that um the idea that science fiction always precedes science fact someone had to imagine a thing to be possible and then investigated an attempt to make it a reality. So everything starts in imagination. It starts in what we conceive of. And, you know, and then getting back to your original point, the idea that, you know, stories, mythology really does matter.

It's the stories we, they give us the, there's a phrase I use is that memes are the framework upon which our perception of reality hangs. You give people a story about what a thing is, and that's how they understand, gives them the paradigm or, or schema for how to understand it. And we, yeah, the tools, the otherwise neutral tools are being used by the enemy,

the propagandists to shape the story that tells us what a thing is and then also how we should feel about it or understand it in context of other things. And I think it's absolutely necessary to do that for good. To respond. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely don't see that ground to the enemy. We talked about the idea of cancel culture earlier, and that's a sticky one too, because I always think of cancel culture as specifically using the tool of social responsibility for evil purposes. And it can be used for good.

No, that they respond, well, it's just accountability culture. I'm like, ah, that is actually a separate category. These things are not conflated. They want to conflate them so that they can cancel anyone and feel like good people. but you know when it's used for good I mean we might ostracize someone who's being a jerk you're just not welcome to the party you're ruining the vibe you may let's show you the door nothing wrong with that but then there's a thing where the person just you know they say they're wearing a maga hat and it's like you're evil you have to leave you're not allowed here's like I didn't even said anything you don't even you don't know anything about me uh and maybe you have the wrong perception or idea or understanding of what I actually support what this symbol means to me um anyway, I was going somewhere with that. I'll stop for a second. But it's all about the stories, right?

Yeah, and I have a whole bunch of, you know, offshoots and tangents on that, on that subject that I could, I'm going to try to fight against my instincts to. Oh, yeah. Because there's such, there's so many interesting topics, but it's, it's so important, the stories are so important to how people understand this. And this has been the function of this, what I've been talking about on my Twitter,

roads and served him a lot is cybernetic social engineering. And this is actually, it's what a cybernetic system is, is a self-regulating system of social control. That's actually the definition of it originally. You can, there is the metaphorical interpretation of cybernetics in this social, at least, at the very least, even if you don't accept that originally it was about social control, because the original name of cybernetics was the science of control.

and the guy who invented cybernetics for the workplace, Beers, Stanford Beers, Stafford Beers, describes his interpretation of it as if it was the original interpretation, and I tend to accept that. But even if that wasn't the case, it certainly is being used that way now as a way to manage social systems. So you create a social system that self-regulates, i.e. has peer pressure influences that correct on a specific original function, original teleological measurement for the system. So an end that the system is designed to achieve or arrive at. And so cybernetics is direct transliteration of the Greek word Kubernetes,

which means to the steersman. And so in Greek it's the steersman, the cybernetics, because of the direct transliteration. If you went first to Latin from Greek, you get Gubernator, and then Gubernator becomes governor. Sometimes you'll see governor as the name of a physical system that governs and maintains a system within a certain safe range. The best metaphor is usually something like the Watt steam engine regulator that makes sure that this, so if it gets too hot, it spins faster, and that raises the thing because of centrifugal force. So it's built right into the system to limit how far it can go in one or the other direction. That's sort of the definition of a cybernetic system.

Gotcha. But that already existed because of course the Wadsd-Steem engine already existed. So it's an intrinsic control system in the mechanical sense. But to call it cybernetics was this other thing, the science of control. They renamed to cybernetics because they realized that people would see what they were doing. And eugenics, this is a replacement for eugenics. Cybernetics is actually directly related to the same ideology of eugenics. this is this is the kind of stuff that

I started to realize when I when I no longer had anything stopping me from checking oh yeah and I just want to throw it out there too because some people are going to hear that and go cybernetics you know like the six million dollar man like bionics like

they're going to think cyber as in as in replacing body parts transhumanist and they everybody wants you know that the first indications of this obfuscation of the definition of the word that I know of came about with like William Gibson and Necromancer, the

neuromancer, I should say. So in the Neuromancer, you know, the idea was a cyber deck. And, you know, but actually the system itself, the word was come up with by, I can't remember his name. He's, he's the grand pooh-bah of it, though. And he's credited with giving it that name, too, because, as I said, it was originally science of control in 1945 and by 1949 it was known as cybernetics and all the eugenicists had converted from eugenics to cybernetics because again it's construction of social systems that that have an agenda built in that is self-maintaining so you don't need to have a supervisor you don't necessarily need to police it it will keep itself under the control and this doesn't this perfectly describe like

the average teenage childhood experience of this they say, oh, well, all the kids in my school are so mean and they do all these things. Well, this is all part of the cybernetic social engineering experiment. And they're being encouraged to do this through a variety of incentives and disincentives. You know what I mean? And the system itself is self-regulating in the sense that all the girls say, well, we're going to do it. So why are you going to do it? But the thing that they're all talking about was given to them by the state through media or through government schools or through something else, right? So this is, This is what we're dealing with.

This is a massive mind control thing. But it's really social control. It's social planning. And this is just what happens when you decide you're going to plan society. You actually have to plan society. Yeah. Every aspect of it. And I was making that point earlier.

I think it might have been off before we started. But that the eugenics has always been a progressive project, going back 100 years. And it has not been abandoned. And people really need to get that. their head. It's like they think of that as an evil right-wing Nazi. Number one, I don't think Nazis were right-wing. I think they were just a different brand. In my opinion,

it's two different competing brands of socialism. It's the Coke versus Pepsi of the socialist global versus nationalist. That's the only real difference. And the way I've phrased it on acts before is that you know, what is it? Communism is socialism motivated by envy or resentment

and Nazism is socialism motivated by like disgust and purity that that that that what do you call the moral intuition type type of thing but they were both yeah yeah both socialism that you're not getting away from this one that oh they deny it the communist screen to high heaven they were really socialist of quaint it wasn't really communism either but in the end it was corporatism fascism that won all of them fascism is now the every single government on the planet i argue is a corporativist state and that is to say that that they charter their own corporations which conduct, for lack of a better word, state trade, and that this is responsible for things that, the symptoms that confirm that this is true that anyone can

look at is attitudes such as national debt, or not so much national debt, that's not right. What do I mean? Trade deficits. So when somebody says that we have a trade deficit with that country, that's to presume that that my country makes stuff and sells it, and that the other country makes stuff and sells it. We're supposed to make stuff more than the others. Who exactly is making this stuff?

Is it the country that's making? No, it's somebody or some buddies are all making that thing, right, or selling that service. The government has no claim to it. That doesn't, you know what I mean? That's not part of the government's budget or anything like that, right? Except if you want to accept taxes and that kind of crap. But this idea that there would be any kind of,

kind of a deficit makes no sense because people are just exchanging goods, right? This can only be good for all the governments because they're just going to tax these transactions, right? There's no deficit anywhere to be seen. But the myth comes from this mercantilist arrangement, back when the state was totally in control of everything, planned the economy, and chartered these corporations which would manage entire sectors of the economy. And they would be responsible for buying and selling all the tea for Britain. You know what I mean? All of the, they were the only ones.

Nobody, it were, you would, the British Navy would sink your ship if you tried to deal in this illicit substance that the government was the only one allowed to deal with. You would get your charter, your permission. You would buy your license from the state to perform this and then enforce it, you know, militarily by sinking ships or, or, you know, arresting, finding, imprisoning you today. If you try, kids with a lemonade stand. You know, that's, you don't have a license. You're not following food, safety, handling.

It's a kid with a lemonade stand. And it is a mine virus, this idea that the government should be in control of these things, of course. But so it's a throwback to mercantilism, to monarchism, when the state was actually in control of the entire economy and essentially chose who would steward various resources. But that's what corporativism is, is a restoration of that very system just without necessarily. a king, although you could have a king. A corporatist arrangement is oligarchical, so you could still maintain the vestiges of nationalism. And that's what they're going. That's what they've done, is they've maintained the vestiges of nationalism with a globalist tint they're trying to put everybody on. They've already replaced all the governments with corporatist states. They're all part of it,

and all these big organizations, the so-called NGOs, are corporativist organs of this global state. I call it the global totalitarian corporativist state. Yeah. Well, and there's a phrase that some people may have heard, may not have heard. And it sounds like one thing, but it isn't. There's a lot of people online refer to it as the, as global homo. And it's not global homosexuality, which is a different. That's something. It's just global homogeneity. It's the idea of globally everything the same. All with as as the, what is it? It was Tito or who was it in Italy? But he said, you know, all within the state. Nothing outside. That's Mussolini. That's right. Tito was a different guy. And the reason, by the way, the reason I use the word corporatimism is specifically because people, so many people, especially on the left, you know, I say, I'm anti-fascist. I say, yeah, me too. And I say, well, okay, we need to have a conversation here about what capitalism is, what fascism is. And did you know it's actually not?

Like even Mussolini said fascism is not a good representation because it's corporativism that he called it. And I use corporativism, the direct anglicization of what he. called it because everybody even corporatism has been misunderstood people think that means capitalism that means corporations and capitalism sees control that which in in austrian economics if we're talking about this in classical economics this that phenomenon would be called regulatory capture and that is a concern we don't want the government to have any influence on the economy to have any power to regulate the economy because of the fear of regulatory capture right so on the one hand And it's a good thing that people on the left are complaining about regulatory capture,

and I hope they keep that idea in their head for future conversations. But the important thing is we all have to understand this isn't regulatory capture. This is corporativism. The state is telling the corporations what they have to do, and they have to do it, or else the state punishes them, right? And they don't make money. If you look at the corporations, they're actually not making money. So this is not a capitalist operation here.

This is, again, social controls. It's social planning. It's, that's what it's all about. So social and economic planning. And those corporate corporations. That's never got wrong before, right? Massive top-down social planning. Hasn't killed millions in the 20th century alone.

I did want to jump in, but just two seconds here and go, you were describing. So I've had another idea I want to run by you or at least just put it out there. You know, we went from that divine right of kings, monarchism. And then, and then we hit the, um, the enlightenment and liberalism popped up. And there's been a lot of discussion about, well, what is that exactly? But there's principles involved in that. And two core promises that I've been able to suss out and that they are, you know, liberalism promised both equality and liberty. And I see these as polar opposites on a certain scale.

The more equality you have, the less liberty because it's sameness. And the more liberty you have, the less equality you have because people are going to do different things with their liberty. They're going to make different choices and it's okay. So the way I've broken it down is that Initially we had the Socialist response to Or addition or path of liberalism Which is a heavy focus on on the supremacy of equality

We're going to make everyone equal You get communism, you get fascism You get all these different different methods of Enforcing top down sameness And then It was only like maybe 50s 60 years ago, there's a tradition leading up to it, but we get libertarianism which says, no, no, no, no, no.

Equality is not the superior value. Liberty is the superior value, even if it allows for inequality. And so I see that's the two competing branches of liberalism that we've got going on today. We've got socialism versus libertarianism. I don't know if you have thoughts on that. Yeah, definitely. And well, the thing that always comes up first is I try to sort of set, the record straight historically and just go back and explain what it was at the time because

when we read about you know if you're reading contemporaneous um articles from the 19th century and they refer to liberals and liberalism that means an entirely different thing that it meant in this last century so so it's been liberals become conflated with uh progressive progressivism exactly right right and even progressive used to be not a bad word like so so in the 19th century all of progress That's right. Well, yeah. So capitalism was about, about property rights, of course, and being able to, and the idea of the anarchic market.

And that's, and applying what's called classical economics in reality. And I'm trying to remember it was David Ricard, Ricardo or somebody. There's a few different individuals in various countries who are responsible for big, upticks in this. This was against the what the state wanted against what the elites wanted because it empowers people to make money and they don't it got them out of these little fiefdoms and out of the serfdoms that they were in. So the end of the product of your labor instead of your futile lord owning the product of your

labor. Yeah, absolutely. And so in capitalism was right right and that's by the way what corporativism is is a restoration of the feudal state. And it's it's the only real difference It's called something else. But as I say, the government form is heavily influenced by syndicalism, guild socialism, and trade unionism. Of course, we see the guilds stuff and the unions because I like to call them syndicates. When people get hung up on the word corporation, because they really think that's a capitalist thing. And I point out that the word pre-existence, the existence of capitalism, it always meant chartered organ of the state for state trade.

And what I was getting at earlier was that in these cases, the state isn't actually, like, it was only back in the old days when the state ran the economy and actually literally did buy all the bread or all the wine. You know, French brought all their bread from Germany and Germany bought all their wine from France. And then Germany sold the wine they bought from France to their citizens. And in that case, I guess you could have a situation where the more money was sent to one country or the other. And at the end of the year, if they had different currencies, there would be a balancing out of the. gold value of those currencies at the end of the year. So I owe you 10 bars of gold. You owe me 20. So we'll cancel it out and you only owe me 10 or whatever. You know what I mean? Like it's that way we don't have both have to send more gold back and forth to exchange and make up at the end of

the year. That was when all this, when the state completely controlled the economy and they exchanged gold with each other to balance out their currencies. That's where all that comes from. None of that's true anymore. It has nothing to do with anything. So there's no possibility of any kind of trade deficit, so to speak, unless the state is low on conducting the trade. And then when you start to think about corporations as being organs of the state and conducting state trade, which they are and always have been, it makes sense. And all of a sudden you say, okay, I guess we can't have a trade deficit because it's actually the state that's conducting the trade, not individuals. Yeah.

Well, I thought about this, too. Am I always try to go to, okay, what do we do about it? Not always sometimes I have no idea, but sometimes I get an idea. And one thing I've been thinking lately is that if, okay, wave of magic wand, we could dispense with or abolish the legal fiction of corporations. That doesn't mean people can't come together in groups and do whatever they want, but specifically what that means to me is the diffusion of responsibility that comes from, well, the company did it.

I didn't do it. I'm just the board of directors. I'm just this. I'm just a cog in the machine. I would return to sole proprietorship. You own the company. You are the guy. If the company fucks up, it's your fault because you own it.

You are personally responsible. Now they've got all these. A limited liability company. Well, who says? The government. Oh, yeah. So they give you all these protections. Now, I know people are going to say, well, it helps facilitate business.

Because who could take that on? I'm like, well, the only people who should be doing things are people that can take it on. And if you can't, so be it. If you can't provide a safe product, you don't get to make the product and then have indemnity from the government saying, sorry, we're not going to allow you to sue. We're not going to hold one person responsible as the ultimate decision maker. So I don't know if you have thoughts on that, but that's one thing, the idea of abolishing the

legal fiction of corporation itself as, as, as. I agree. I agree. I think the whole thing, I think the whole thing is nonsense. And I agree with you completely. And for the reasons you say, I mean, this idea of. limited liability. Now one of the things I caution people because I come into this, I'm an anarcho-capitalist myself, so I'm very much a capitalist. I just don't believe in the state,

and I certainly don't believe the state is necessary for capitalism. And the arguments that I hear about that are seemed to me to be pretty nonsensical. So I just, usually there's no debate involved if somebody makes a claim like that. But on the other hand, I like to explain it to people if they don't quite understand the, well, the corporatist angle of all of this, the idea that it's, that it's the state. It's not, these are not private corporations that are making these decisions. They're not, and they're not making money. And it's a big incestuous, what, you know, a human centipede thing happening.

So, you know, the government makes the rules. So the lobbyists bribe the government to make rules that are favorable to the business. So they get their kickbacks. And that just round and around we go. Well, and that's if it's the scenario that's the regulatory capture. And that that would be bad enough, and I'm glad people are worried about that. But I'm actually saying it's even worse than that, that there's this corporativist arrangement where the government is simply bullying and bribing and extorting and whatever it has to do,

coercing corporations to do what it wants and granting them monopoly powers over entire economic sectors so that they can implement those policies over entire economic sectors. and there's no escape from them. You can't just go and take, well, I'm just going to take my business to the competitor. No, the state makes sure there are no competitors. And we see examples of this. The most obvious one would be Amazon. So during this COVID nonsense, they basically made it impossible for anyone to run a small store,

but they gave Amazon free reign to control everything and do whatever and obviously give them all sorts of subsidies and whatever. And again, Amazon was built over the course of a decade or more. with losses, supposedly operating on losses for that whole amount of time. And that was a justification for them having the subsidies by the state in the form of tax breaks and other subsidies. So that's corporativism. The state is assuming the cost of maintaining an organization so that it can secure monopoly status. Yeah, that's not okay.

It's not good. Yeah. It's just so obvious. People don't even look at it and go, hey, this is. is a problem. They go, so what? I think we are dealing. You're talking about zombie apocalypse. I think we're in one. And lately,

the meme has been the NPC meme. Like, there's a lot of people that just don't think. They can't create conjure a mental image of an apple. They're told what to believe. A lot of people are sheep. And my people have been saying this is we were talking about Art Bell, but the days of, you know, the explosion of, say, 90s conspiracy radio where people

talk about all kinds of things that turned out To be true, like 99% of it. You know, everyone back then was saying, CIA murdered JFK. And what did RFK say this year running for president? Yeah, the CIA killed my uncle. So, Jesus. We all knew it.

And in fact, and the other significant thing here, of course, is that the term itself, conspiracy theorist, was invented by the CIA to just credit the people who were talking about JFK's murder. Now that's why I call myself a wizard. I'm trying to bring back this lingo, this understand. I mean,

there's a lot of reasons, but too, but that is spell casting. That is, that is literally what it means to cast spells. Absolutely. And the idea.

And the idea. And he was doing it too recently. I mean, this is, we're, okay, this, welcome to the political episode. We never,

I never talked about any of this stuff, but Kamala was doing it with the, no, no, no, no, no, that's okay, because I, I talk about the guests

specialties in their areas. So you're one of the first people that have, that's come along and this is what you do. So this is what we talk about. It's absolutely fine, But Kamal was doing it too recently with that, uh, what can be unburdened by what has been and repeating it.

Like a, that's why people chant at these rallies. Incantations. Absolutely. Uh, and it's, uh, a lot of it is, um, you know, it's, it's a brainwashing mechanism. I mean, imagine you're, you're, you're trapped in a thing or, or pressured into a thing. And all you hear is the say the mantra over and over and over and it has a hypnotic quality. I, and that's why people say, but they're, they're. a cult. Of course, they say people

not in the cult. Those are the ones who are in a cult. That's what they say. Of course, that's cult dogma. Everyone else is in the cult. Not us. Not us. We're just the truth tellers. We're just the real people. By the way, chant exactly what I'm saying and say nothing but what I'm saying. But you're not in a cult. Chant with me, I'm not an occult. I'm not

an occult. That's how it is. One thing I wanted to do is, this is carrying it back, though. Was it decentralization that you were talking about as a primary focus of yours, or am I using the word wrong? No, that's exactly right. But you have another phrase you use for it, too. Well, I call it mass recall.

Mass recall. There you go. Yeah, that's the name of the event. So, and the book that I want to write is called Bunker Hunters, and it's a follow-up idea. I had done, these were just threads that I did on Twitter. And the Bunker Hunters, so like in May, sorry, in March of 2020, really starting in December of 2019. So I knew something was wrong because. because even Facebook, which I had been using for a few years,

was Block just took down everything I had. I had a whole bunch of like just normal Mises quotes and Jefferson quotes and whatever. And they just took them all down and said, this is all violates our whatever. It's terrorist propaganda. Yeah, right. So I just stopped using Facebook entirely and I blocked every single person. I had thousands and thousands of Irish traditional musicians who had followed me back and whatever.

And part of it was just thinking that it was them, like reporting my stuff. because they're comy, left-wing Irish musicians. It probably is some of them. So I kind of blocked everyone for that reason. And then I also excused it in my mind saying, well, you know, the truth of the matter is I just, there's nothing I can do with Irish music right now. So I might as well just block everybody. That way, if anybody goes and looks at this account,

they can't tell who I did or didn't like. I just blocked everybody. Yeah, but it turned out it was, you know, like top-down censorship from mods and whatnot, right? And that seems to be the case, for sure. I certainly have confirmed that on Twitter since. But so in this March period when they actually declared the lockdown, because I'm a student of totalitarianism, Austrian economics enthusiasts. I've read, of course, Hayek.

And Hayek's Road to Serfdom is about totalitarianism, the threat of the state taking over when you give it more and more responsibility. So that in Hannah Arendt and many others that have, I've read I knew immediately what was happening here in economics terms it was they were going for a planned economy totally command economy which is a version of a planned economy by saying that every everything must stop locked down no more interactions we're stopping society we're violating every principle of epidemiology right this is a nathema to epidemiology because the whole idea is it's the epidemiologists are are medical professionals and they're

subjects to the Hippocratic oath so you're not allowed to kill your patient. Epidemiologists, their patient is society. And supposedly some quote-unquote epidemiologists, or one turned out to be like a 12-year-old girl who was the daughter of somebody on some committee, right, was the one who actually came up with the lockdown plan. But it turns out in epidemiology, it's, you know, you can't kill the patient and do no first do no harm. And of course, cutting off society, stopping society, stopping people from interacting with each other, is catastrophic and it's irreparable we're going to fix this by making sure you can't earn a living and you don't get any sunlight or exercise we're going to yeah what we're going to fix society

and they sold it and the people ate it up like it's what we have to wear two masks alone in your car we have to we're say i'm saving people you're not no i knew no this is a disaster yeah but i knew because this happened everywhere all over the world simultaneously in exactly the same way that this had to be the plan and it was well orchestrated and executed. Oh, yeah. So they have the global infrastructure to be able to do that on the ground. They have the global infrastructure to put a needle in your child's arm everywhere in the world already. And they've done it.

And so that means we can't obviously pick one government or another. We can't pick one party over another. The only thing we can do is rejects government and start again as towns. And so this idea that I came with, so in March, I spent about a month learning about everything I had to learn about and also thinking about what we could possibly do. And I researched through history all the ways totalitarianism and tyrannies have been overcome by their societies. And there are very few successful examples. Every single example that I found had a specific contingency plan in documentation by the state such that I was, I was convinced that those mechanisms, had been thoroughly war games by the state already.

And they had plans in place that would increase their success if any of those traditional ways were attempted to liberate, you know, ourselves from this tyranny. So the only thing I found when I was going through it is this basic idea of, like, you know, in the old Wild West, if some sheriff turned out to be a bad guy and he was drinking too much and raping women and whatever, you could go down to the sheriff's office and knock on the door and say,

you're under arrest sheriff, like you're not sheriff anymore, get in that jail cell. If we actually did this everywhere in the world, all roughly at the same time, there would be no real violent recourse for the state because if you, and I explain this in one of my primary threads,

is that there actually isn't very much the state can do if everyone is already essentially liberated by removing their local enforcers. If you remove everyone in your local town and they're just your, there are going to be people you know and your family and your friends because it's your town, right? So that means it'll be peaceful, right? All we're saying is you're losing your job and something's wacky.

And so let's let's, let's, you know, think about this. And as long as you just have to have enough people and they have to be people who are known. And it's just, I don't know what the critical mass is. I say 500 families, 500 to 1,000 families. Sure. It depends on the size. And it's a much more difficult. proposition say in a major city. I'm in Portland, Oregon. That presents its own problems as well,

because I'd say, well, the majority of people disagree with my opinion. They like it the way it is, and they support the riots and all kinds of things. And they keep voting for the same people. Yeah. Jesus. By the way, that's true, too. My conclusion was that the cities can't be saved, period. Cities are a mess. Do not move to Portland and get out of the cities. That's why it's town level, civil rebellion only not cities and i think that the gtc s will occupy as a what's the word i'm looking for an archipelago essentially the gtcs will be reduced to major megacities as an archipelago across the earth and so they'll they will be severely limited but they won't be eliminated at all because we're not we're not engaging with them all we're doing is separating ourselves from their

infrastructure and the areas around the cities will be iffy gray areas. I know it, you know what I mean? This isn't a perfect solution, but it's the only thing we can do to get started and it's, and it covers all the bases. It's the only peaceful thing they can do. It's the only thing that'll be effective. Yeah. Yeah, that's not violence. And that's what we're trying to avoid is violence. And when I am really, what I'm concerned about is this idea, because people sometimes will say, well, but yeah, but if you should go down to the town hall and do that, then the cops will just shoot you all, up and you'll be dead and I'll say well let me ask you this if you think your government will shoot you if you go down and complain about what it's doing and that's the government you're defending

that's that you think it's an optimal circumstance to have government that will kill you if you complain about it like you know there is no real argument in favor of that it's just yeah that's not a do anything right no yeah and it's fair enough for people to say I'm scared I don't want to get hurt I'd maybe I'd rather live as a slave and not not risk my neck. I can't blame them, but I don't respect that either. Yeah, exactly. And it's going to take time and people need to, like I said, the real crucial thing about mass recall, as I call it, is that it, well, it can only happen when people want it to happen. And that can only happen when they understand it.

Yeah. And that can only happen when they see. And once they... That's a funny argument people throw out there, it'll never happen. well, it'll never happen if you don't agree to join me. Just agree to join me. And then we'll convince the next guy. It's like your own argument is, I'm not going to allow that to happen.

Well, fair enough. Then you just disagree with me. Then you're my opponent. You're not, then the argument is not that can't happen. The argument is I won't allow that to happen. That's a completely different rejoinder, you know. And I can maintain the framework of my equation and just allow the variables that influence their decision making to be more favorable to me.

Because most of the people who, like people argue this about the gene therapies. It's like, well, the gene therapies are sort of self-selecting those people out of the problem. They're just not going to be. People talk about the percentages of the population that are going to be around to complain. It's not going to be those people. So those numbers are going to decrease, not increase. And as we know, these things always do increase. Slow as it may appear, this idea that we're in trouble, I think, is pretty popular.

now. Like 30% of the people are like, yeah, something's really majorly fucked up. And maybe they don't know what to do about it, but they know that this is not normal and something's fishy. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And they on this way, like you're saying, it all comes down to spreading the ideas, which is then why they limit the visibility of accounts like yours and other people that are speaking up. They're like, oh, we can't allow that idea to catch on. We're going to silence those voices. I mean, that's the whole thing about why freedom of speech. is so important. It's like you give that, okay, I make, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've, I've put out, well, ex post or whatever, occasionally, which is, hey, I will agree to a censorship regime so long as I am the final arbiter of who gets to speak and what they're allowed to say. So, why would you ever endorse that? The people who do, I think, and it's been said before, they're, and it's going to be in charge. It's going to be someone else and they're going to tell you what to think and what you're allowed to say. So why would you ever endorse that? The people who do, I think, and it's been said before, they, they, believe the people in control will be people who agree with them.

And they don't find out until it's too late. No, they hate you too. Why? Why? You are sheep arguing to let the wolf in. Because, for the sake of tolerance, I don't know what, what they're thinking sometimes. Like, how do the stuff seems so? No, you hit the nail on the head.

They think, well, yeah, I mean, it might not be fair. But as long as it's on my side, then that's good. And all's fair in love and love. war you know i mean it's this is the whole issue of the state is that and the libertarian argument stands which is anything that should be anything that we all agree is bad for me to do to you should be bad for the government to do to anyone that's it's it's really simple that's it yeah people in that's this is another spellcasting element or illusion crafted is that you know it it isn't that the police have powers that the people don't like we do citizens

arrest, but that's not a, that's not a power allowed to us by a generous overlords in the government. It's like, you can, you can take someone who's hurting other people and you can stop them. And maybe, maybe to stop them, you have to hold them. And maybe you hold them in a room. And maybe that room has some bars. And maybe in the, in the process of stopping them, they get hurt. This is all, this is, this is just describing what police do. They, they are officially, they're, they're, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's,

It's an organized system of doing what any normal human being can and should do in the face of some aggressive threat in the community. And it's not like there the magic is in thinking it's something above, something better than, something more virtuous than, you know, that there is the factor of qualified immunity, which I'm leaning towards eliminating it, although there's arguments in favor of it of like, you know, if the community sets rules. And they all agree, okay, this is how our enforcers are going to behave. As long as they behave according to those rules, then they've done what they've been told to do by the community. But we're just so many steps removed from actually the community, which actually takes me on a tangent, too. I mean, in terms of practical application of moving in the direction of your decentralization or mass recall, I think there's a good example in, say, many communities in America where they just don't cooperate with. the police. I didn't see nothing. I don't know nothing. I'm not turning my people over to you. Even if they hurt someone in our community, we're going to deal with that in our community.

We're just going to leave you just like this complete cock blocking of the cop blocking, right, of enforcement. And I think that's one path too. You know, you can always start with your neighbors and say, hey, we look after each other. We're going to make sure no one gets hurt and we're also not going to cooperate if the state comes looking for us. Don't know. Never seen him. Don't know that guy. I got nothing for you. Didn't see nothing, don't know nothing. So that can be one practical method of just non-cooperation. And it's for your self-interest too, because the state has no interest in protecting you.

The only thing that can come about from interacting with the state is harm to you. Nothing good can ever come from it. And as long as people get into that mindset, and it's not a cynical mindset, it's just precautionary. And it's literally what you have to do because this is the record of the state. the state is a violent felon, if you will, right? We know it has a record of killing people indiscriminately and then justifying it, and then having support. So really, this is a certain kind of psychopathy.

And as long as people begin to look at people who take these jobs that work for the government or whatever, you know what I mean? Like it takes a certain kind of person to do that, a person who doesn't, really either know what they're doing or want to excel at what they're doing at the very least, right? Because there's no, the only people that are stars in the state are celebrated for their skill are people who commit violence, you know, soldiers. And also the sort of rile uppers, the politicians, the ones who get everyone riled up and angry. Those are the only ones who ever get celebrated. There's no expert person who they celebrate in the government other than somebody who's making weapons or is whatever the quintessential soldier.

Yeah. Well, it's a funny thing. There's two comments I had there that which pinged up while you were describing all that is that government is full of politicians. It's made up of politicians in a way. And those, what is it, the type of person that. most excels in politics, being a politician, it tends to be more sociopathic types. Well, they will say

and do anything, promise anything, backstab anybody to in the pursuit of power. And it seems few and far between that we have really good politicians that are like, I'm just here to make sure the government doesn't get bigger and hurt more people. And we get folks like, you know, Rand Paul

and Thomas Massey and a few others. Just a bare handful. And hopefully that Freedom Caucus idea grows. And we get more and more people that are like, We need to shut this down. We need to abolish alphabet agencies because they were never constitutional. I wish them. I wish them luck and I wish them well, but I don't think that they can't do anything.

And I'm the only thing I'm not going to do. Not been good. Yeah. No, it hasn't. And I'm just shy of saying, you know, and they're kind of responsible because they're giving people false hope. Yeah. And I think that's a real worry. It's certainly a concern of mine if I think, because I really do.

think that the state has declared war on the human race and is trying to murder us all. There is a series of things that it is doing, and I can go into those details, but this is why I sacrificed everything. I was whatever the hell I was doing, all those things, Irish music, you know, my whatever businesses I was running, and, you know, it's eBay stuff. I mean, I just stopped it all, and I just got on with this because, hey, man, like, it's fucking real. they really are trying to not just kill you, but like if you survive,

um, genetically modify your offspring to, to be a, a biological weapons manufacturing plant. Yeah. All your offspring forever. Well, what I was going to say before,

this leads towards, this leads towards a better understanding of the bigger, bigger picture, I think is that government is an organism. It's not, it's an organism in the sense that its top priority like any other organism is self-preservation. It will do anything to keep itself alive. That becomes, you know, no matter what, and that's kind of the

kind of the top priority of any group that forms is maintenance of the group towards whatever their ostensible mission statement is. And then the mission statement becomes the justification for the, for the self-preservation. Like, well, if we don't keep ourselves alive in this form, we can't serve you. If I don't get paid, then how can I protect you? Yeah. Well, we get that full circle going, which is, you know, how can I, how can I protect you without

maintaining my existence? And to maintain my existence, I'm going to have to kill you. I'm sorry. But how can I protect you if I, if I don't exist? So a good old catch 22, that's a self, self-fulfilling prophecy. What is it? what like a bootstrapping type of thing. And that's what government does.

The government is like, we will maintain our existence as an organism above all. And that means above its own mission statement to the contradiction of its own mission statement. I've always referred to this as the definition of bureaucracy, that its function is to satisfy its mandate. But it can't satisfy its mandate unless it exists. And therefore, its real first mandate is to exist. its own existence, yeah. And there are many quotes that are similar to this. The one that I was thinking of was,

there's a bunch from, of course, from Murray Rothbard, but I was thinking of essentially that it will always be to exist. It's never the mandate. It's never the mandate that they're supposed to be doing. The only positive argument for bureaucracy I've ever heard, and maybe I even came up with it myself when I was younger, I'm not sure, but was that if you want an idea to traverse generations and be unchanged, you would need to create a bureaucracy to try to certify or ingrain that in some way,

make it an institution so that you come back 100 years and all the information is still there, everything that it was supposed to be doing, or, you know what I mean? If that's the only job is to sort of maintain that idea, I guess if you created a bureaucracy, you could maybe keep the, idea alive. God only knows who'd be in charge at the end, but at least the documentation, hopefully, and the original idea would be there. You know what I mean? It would just be maybe perhaps gigantic and not doing anything regarding this particular idea, but it would still be

there somehow. Oh, yeah. Well, they had another thought while you were saying all that stuff, too, and there's a there's a there seems to have been a what am i trying to say a shift in like once upon a time and maybe maybe i've got this wrong but but what i'm working my way through a new idea that i think i just came up with but we'll see uh maybe someone someone probably said it uh way before me and better um but it used to be that we were like all about as a human as a human species we were all about conquering nature to make habitable space for people and then somewhere in the last couple hundred years and

culminating around the progressive eugenics era is like it became well humans are broken therefore we must perfect humans. Nature is perfect humans are flawed and it's like this weird perversion of the kind of the Christian doctrine of

original sins like you know accept that we are all fallen in a fallen world and nothing can be done about it and the inversion is the world is perfect and humans need to be perfected. Therefore, we will do eugenics and breeding and different things and mind control

and now, now the transhumanist movement of like, we need to, they say, become completely non-human in order to in order to what, I don't know, in order to perfect what we can become.

It's a weird I come at it from the Malthusian anti-humanist side. Well, we'll finish your thought because I was going to all introduce to the other side. I probably had another tangent too, but I'm very much in the, you know, progress and tradition in the yin yang style. You can't get rid of tradition because that is stability. And, you know, tradition is as simple as eat three meals a day.

You're human. We need food. Drink water. This is tradition. You can't have progress out of human needs. Humans are what they are unless you fundamentally change what humans are. Then you can, because you decided there, those needs are inappropriate. So we're going to try and do away with those needs.

by uploading our consciousness or whatever. But then there's also the progress side of things, which is, yeah, if there is some way to improve something, I don't want that avoided for the sake of maintaining the way it always has been. That's the argument of argument against tradition, which is you shouldn't just blindly follow it. But you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bathwater either. You shouldn't be like, because it's old,

it must necessarily change. change because everything old is bad. No, sometimes old is as good as it gets. And the eternal truth doesn't change unless we discover something new and then we can talk about it. And I think the range of progress, I don't think it's people who, that's why I say partly it's a cult, they believe in the arc of history. We're going somewhere.

Humans are going to become something. We have to keep pushing in that direction. And they'll push everything over a cliff towards that end, whether it's, you know, helping or hurting. That was my rant. Go ahead. No, no, it's definitely true. Like, I mean, so I usually cover these from the, I describe this Malthusian anti-humanism,

this idea, this ideology that is pervasive in society. We all, I picked that one because it's true, and I have a lot of documentation that supports all of this and ties in with cybernetic social engineering, timelines will match up. And this allows me to introduce all of my arguments that are essentially irrefutable. And then I had combined that with my simple observations of the gene therapy and the lockdowns and whatever. Like, there's nothing I've said that is in any way incorrect. And my, you know, my objective observations show a real threat. And I'm just taking it seriously.

The only difference between me and anybody else who knows is it's not just, holy shit, things are that bad. So what do we do about it? Almost nobody else has any kind of idea of how or if something. could be done about it. And so I went through this process because I realized that it wouldn't really be that helpful for me to tell everybody the sky is falling if I don't have a way to stop it. So that's why I was investigating the historical examples. And when I found the thing that would work, I reasoned that out long enough to be able to say, yes, this can work. And it could work. The idea was to get the idea out on Twitter to a couple of people in every town on the planet before they cut off

because I was thinking, you know, they might just cut off the internet. I might only have a week to issue a plan and this is the best we can do. And that was what I came up with. So it's still true. It's still what we have to do. It's the downsides is I came up with this several years ago. And since then, the police, sorry, the government has already murdered a large number of children and people. And the point of mass recall was to prevent that.

And so it failed. But that doesn't mean that we still don't have to do it that way. It's still the best way to do it. It's just we don't get to save the kids. Yeah. Yeah. It's like it's not hopeless just because the tragedy you saw coming actually did come to pass in some ways. It doesn't mean more and bigger tragedies aren't coming.

So it's not a reason to say, well, let's give up because we didn't act soon enough. It's like, no, what is it like? Self-improvement mantra is like, you know, The best day to start improving yourself was yesterday. But if you didn't, today is the best day, you know. Hey, I hate to do this. I'm looking at my clock. And we're about an hour in.

And I've got about an hour hard out for myself. I've got to be done by four Pacific to get ready for my game stream. So should I talk about my dream? Yeah, we get into the dream thing. The whole point is, you know, we talk. So there's two things. Now, number one, I want to chill you and everything you do and just talk to you for fun, but also get to know you a little bit, feel, feel out, or just absorb passively how

your mind works. And I think talking to people before we get into the dream thing helps me a little bit, figure out where they're coming from and which of many possible understandings of different ways of looking at things feel most relevant to that person. Long story short on that, I'm going to write down, it's a route, right about the one hour mark. And, okay, so as per my usual process, I'm going to shut up and listen. Our friend Patrick's going to tell me his dream beginning to end, like you experienced it, and then we'll talk about it.

So I'm ready when you are. Benjamin the Dream Wizard wants to help you. Here's the veil of night and shine the light of understanding upon the mystery of dreams. Every episode of his Dreamscapes program features real dreamers gifted with rare insight into their nocturnal visions. New Dreamscapes episodes appear every week on YouTube, Rumble, Odyssey, and other video hosting platforms, as well as free audiobooks, exploring the psychological principles which inform our dream experience, and much, much more. To join the wizard as a guest, reach out across more than a dozen social media platforms and through the contact page at Benjamin thedreamwizard.com, where you will

also find the wizard's growing catalog of historical dream literature available on Amazon, documenting the wisdom and wonder of exploration into the world of dreams. over the past 2,000 years. That's Benjamin the Dream Wizard on YouTube and at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com. I have notes that I wrote down the morning after. Always good.

Within 20 minutes or something, I wrote this town. But basically, I'll paraphrase it as I'm just looking over it. I essentially, I call this the white wolf dream because I encounter this white wolf. but I wake up in some kind of an RV or something, and a stranger hands me a small package, and I intuitively know it's got weed in it, so I'm like, oh, thanks, man.

You know, I just accept the thing. And then I kind of drift off, and I'm asleep again for some period of time. And then I wake up, and I'm in like a metal container or something, and there are rounds, shells for, like, a cannon that are light blue, painted light blue or I don't know exactly it's weird to explain

and I'm lying in them in the whatever it's a vehicle that's moving around I don't think it's firing because that would have been really loud and then I drift off again and then I wake up and I'm

in deep snow at the top of the hill with somebody and I'm not sure if I'm like captured by them or I just ran into them or whatever they have they're armed and I'm not and I don't feel like I'm necessarily with friends but I'm not being held at gunpoint or anything and we're walking to the edge of this like parking lot area it's definitely a wooded area but there's a clearly a parking lot and a little hill that there's some trees on it and there's a hill going down from the parking lot and that's pretty steep and it had been snowing for a while we got to the edge

and we sort of fall and almost fall over the edge but get stuck on the snow so the snow is sort of holding us up so we're just you know sort of back to back you know if either of us moves we might lose the grip that we have so nobody moves and then this white wolf shows up and comes in leaps and it looks like it's going to eat us whatever and instead it puts its nose in between the two of us and gets stuck in a similar fashion. And so, and by the way, I don't wake up. This is weird because usually you get attacked by the giant wolf that jumps on you wake up. No. And so then I have to sort of like wiggle my way after a while. The wolf is there on my back, but not biting or doing any movements.

And I eventually shimmy my way back up to get onto the parking lot. And then I'm sort of trying to decide what to do, whether I try to, you know, do anything to disturb the situation or just get away, you know what I mean? What's this? You know what I mean? I can't even really talk. I don't feel like I should make a noise or anything like that. I'm looking around.

I can't tell what the heck's going on. And that's kind of where I wake up for this main dream. Okay. Catching up with my notes here. All right. That's a good one. That's a good one. So you had, just to clarify for my own sake, you had multiple instances

of waking up and falling asleep in the dream. Yeah. This was not actually waking up and then going back to sleep and having another. Right, exactly, right. Yeah. It was all part, and it was all part of the same dream, like waking up and going back to sleep in the same dream. Not really going to, I mean, just having moments of awareness as part of the same timeline,

whatever, you know. Sure, and that would be another thing to tease out is the idea of, so dreams very, often have, like in a movie, when it fades to black and just starts another scene. Dreams do that too, where we get to the end of a particular scene and then scene change and now we're somewhere else. But you actually had the feeling of falling asleep or going back to sleep as a trigger for those transitional periods. I don't know if I would explain it that way. It's more just more just that I was aware for this, for the, for the event. And then I was, it's almost like a, it would be closer to call it to up.

blackout. Okay. Then I blacked out. So if we were to say, you know, versus the idea of actually, I went to bed and I remember putting my head on the pillow and feeling tired and then I slept versus scene change. It was more scene change. Yeah. Got you.

Fair enough. Fair enough. But it, but it was also, but I also knew that I wasn't conscious. I was losing consciousness. Okay. But it was scene change. So it's kind of like with the, you know, something I knew in, all the, but it was. though it wasn't evidence based.

Gotcha. No, no, that's fine. Seeing something in the, like you telling me, I saw a white wolf. This is the visual image presented to me. It's exactly the same thing as I knew X, Y, Z. Yeah. Because none of it physically happened.

It isn't like you can go, this is a table, this is a pen, you know, in dreams, it's like, I felt, I felt the table, and I knew the table wanted me to put the pen on it. How did I know that? It just did. It just did.

It's all things. Trust me. All things are equally real in dreams. They're equally unreal, so to speak. So that's good. I'm glad I asked that too, because there's, I think we're going to, I think I'm going to lean a little more towards the idea of it being falling asleep. And you, you characterize it as losing consciousness.

There's, there's something. There's something to that. The fact that it wasn't just a scene change. It was a little bit more. something else. It was fading out from it, losing focus on it. There's a lot of different ways to understand. They're saying, there's paying attention to things and then not. You don't even have to be falling asleep. I'm looking at one thing. Now I'm looking at another. That change of focus is significant. So changing from conscious awareness to losing focus, conscious

awareness, and then being somewhere else that you didn't choose to go, you know, in a sense. it isn't like, I decided I needed to go and find a box with cannon shells in it, you know. Yeah, I was definitely placed in there. Exactly, exactly. So I think that's this, these are all significant little shades of, shades of meaning that pop up with these things. So, okay, you were, the first thing you said was wake up in an army or you, so this is more along the lines of come to consciousness, come to focus. I guess so. Yeah, yeah.

Okay. And I had no, it is one of the things I'm trying to avoid is I've tried to analyze this. myself and all sorts of tangents appear and I'm sure I'm editing my original at this point, my original memory. So I only, the thing I trust most is the text that I wrote down. Because every, all these other ideas I probably have come up with since, you know, like I have this vision now that it's an RV, although I did say RV in the original text, that it has that it was an RV that had like a mounted cannon on the roof or something like that. Maybe they moved me from the downstairs to the upstairs, you know,

Sure. Put me in the... We definitely try to make sense of these things after the fact. There's what I think it was Freud warned about was secondary elaboration, where we do that. We start adding things to make it make sense. Well, that's exactly what I'm doing here. And maybe the RV was parked in a parking lot in the snow. How do you know?

It could be all the same things. Definitely fit. Yeah, right. And then, of course, I had other dreams later that were consistent. All of this also, just as consistent with my, you know, Bunker Hunter's universe that I had been, I have been thinking about for years. I mean, it's all just seems like it must be like just a gift from the universe for a scene for my book. Maybe so. It knew it very well could be.

We could get all the way to the end of this and go, well, yep, that's exactly what it is. But, but, but, no, I think the fact that when you reflect on the dream, you go, huh, I was thinking about this particular thing at the time and it, the dream seems to fit. So not that it was just your brain going, here's a fantasy scene for your, to write about, although it could be, but more like, given the context of what I was thinking about at the time, what was on my mind, that led me to have this dream experience that speaks to how I think or feel about the broader topic. So that is one thing I was going to ask you, which is about when did this happen? You said it was recently-ish, a month or so? It was at this point

maybe four or five months ago. Okay. And then what I'm not going to do is ask you what was happening at the time. I want to go through the dream and then talk about that a little bit. You know, where were you at? What were you doing the day, the night before? What were you anticipating? But, you know, I don't want to get bogged down in that because then we start assigning meetings to it before we've actually really talked about it. But looking at that in retrospect, but just a plan to see and say, let that percolate in the background and we'll water it with our conversation as we go forward. The RV itself as an environment, as an environment. environment, a large, small, you know, dinky little, little trailer, a big, you know, tour bus signs.

It seemed like a motorhome to me. I considered it a motorhome. It felt big enough to be, you know. So the kind where you would, you would drive it, it's not a trailer attached to a. Yeah, it was, it was, and it was full size. Okay. Any particular decor, modern, older? I seem to remember it having, like, wood pan. So it was an older one. Okay. And then, you know, well, just speaking of your experience with that kind of thing, is it bringing up memories of like you've been in something like that similar when you were a kid or?

I definitely have been in in RVs and specifically I went on a motorhome trip with my grandparents when I was a kid. So definitely is something that I could conjure up. Although it strangely, it was not in, it was not that vehicle and it was not in the arrangement of that vehicle. Not specifically, and strangely enough, also, like when I think about it now, after the fact, where I was, wouldn't normally be a place for a seat.

So my perspective actually is a little odd. But again, I was comfortable, so I must have been sitting on something because somebody handed me the bag, and I was like, yeah, thank you, man. Like, it wasn't under duress. So, you know what I mean? Like, I must have been,

it wasn't like, chained up on the wall or something. Obviously, I was sitting in a comfy chair. Gotcha. Yeah, yeah. That was the other thing to us. I could say, where were you located? Were you in the fold-down bed? Had you been sleeping?

Or you're sitting at a kitchen table? Or you're sitting in the captain's chair, you know. It actually just never occurred to me to think about, you know, maybe I did. I don't, and I have really clear visuals of almost all this stuff, except for that. I don't have any visual at all for where I was. I just, just the rest of the thing. A lot of times in dreams, we're looking out our own eyes. So when you think of this scene where the person's handing you the bag,

had they come in through a door? Is there a door visible? Are you, what are you facing? What's in front of you, you know? Well, I think I might be filling this in now, but I'm assuming I could see the front windshield or something like that, right? You're more oriented towards looking out the front? Yeah, well, I'm sort of in the, if you're in the vehicle facing forward,

I would be in the back right looking left corn diagonally. And then the door on those kinds of RVs is usually just past me, you know, six or seven feet on the right. And I ask a lot of questions and look for these kind of details. You just close your eyes for a minute and go, okay, what do I see? I see the front windshield. Yeah, I do. Okay, so it must be in the back. And why does that matter?

I don't know. Why did you put yourself in the back? Why not in the front? Why were you not standing outside the RV? Why inside? I might have been at the. I'm just realizing it might have been at the refrigerator. That's the place where the refrigerator might be.

It's a midsection kitchen area, sure. And each section says a little different. If you're in the front, that's where the driving happens. That's where the choosing of directions goes. The kitchen areas, sustenance, meals, socialization, the far, far, far back where the bed is. You know, if you're in there, it's like it's a different state of mind where you put yourself in these places. So over the past, and again, not to not to ask too much about. about the timeframe, but just in general,

you've been moving around a lot, traveling. Yeah, I've been chaos traveling since I lost my studio. I mean, of course, it was chaos hermitage before that. So it's in general just been tough, a lot of stress for many years now. That seems very symbolic of travel, an RV. I mean, that's what it's designed for. And it's a rather comfortable way to travel.

It may be even an aspiration of someone who doesn't have such a comfortable way to travel to say, God, if I'm only in an RV, this wouldn't be so bad. This would, you know, I remember when I tried. Especially with a cannon on top. Right. If that's what it is for sure. And it may be. And sometimes after the fact, we go, you know, now that I think about it, I feel like that RV,

the box I was in with the shells had, was attached to the RV in some way. Fair enough. You can go with that and say that's, that feeling is as real as anything else. It may be a feeling But I didn't have the feeling in the dream It was just the things which were in sequence And I wrote them down So but you're absolutely right

After the facts I'm and I'm trying to be Maintain my awareness of adding information And distinguishing it's okay for me to do it But I just have to make sure I remember That it didn't come from the original dream That was speculation Yeah it's good to identify as a separate element After the fact

Just just so we can look at it from that perspective effective and don't confuse it for a direct direct image um so did the what did the person look like any any indication of what kind of a person they were that was handing you I the all I got no people in this like with the bag thing I had no no personal face it was just the bag and the hand I mean maybe it was just like a I don't know I can't even describe the hand I know I can't visualize it was it was that quick of a little it transaction The only person in the whole dream was the person who was armed, who I was with, that we got attacked. Well, first we got stuck in the still.

And then the wolf came and did whatever it did, which doesn't make any damn sense. Right. And like I said, you would wake up normally. Why didn't I wake up? No, no, that's fine. And what I can do is I can kind of see in my own mind a little bit, at least my own version of this where you would, maybe you were looking down at the, the at the at the at the hand but so you're not really getting you're not really examining the person as much as witnessing the action that the action itself the handing of was it was hyper focused too

it was it was not a full scene that scene was just you know looking at the bag as you say I guess what it was is I'm really looking at the bag and I know what I know about what's in it yeah and I say oh thank you yeah and that's something that would be it was a your feeling was um you not disappointed to be handed that thing. It was a rather pleasant experience. Like, yes, um,

you did not have any, did you have any feelings about why the person was giving it to you? It was, um, owed to you or it was a gift. It was a transaction. Like, how would you characterize?

I'm not sure, but, but if I, if, if there was a feeling at all, it would be gift. Because I don't, I just didn't,

I didn't get the, it didn't have the vibe, whatever of, of, of, in other words, as you say, it was somewhat of a surprise.

is gift. Yeah. Oh, oh. As opposed to, thank you. I mean, then again, that's a pretty subtle differentiation and it's totally based on nothing that was in the dream. So I really honestly can't answer that. Well, a lot of times these things don't come to us until I, this is, I think, part of the

magic of what I do is I don't know where these questions come from. I just think of, I just have him inspired to ask questions. And then you don't have to know where the answer comes from. You know, when you ask me that, this is the thought that comes into my head. And it's like, it's related somehow. It pinged off something, and we get that radar signal coming back. And then we try and figure out what it is, but something's there. I think of a lot of these things as like beacons in the dark of night, a lighthouse on the shore.

It tells you there's something there. It doesn't tell you exactly what it is, just something's there. Now we can look at it or not, and we can move towards it or not, or make sure we go around it because if we're on the ocean, it's probably rocks. But it's a lot of these things are just, hey, look over here. and then we try and figure it out after the fact. So I guess what I'm getting from, and you can tell me, of course, tell me what you think about this, but there's iconic representations linked to your personal life in the way of, you know,

you were reminded of traveling with your grandparents, even though it wasn't the same, but it was an older style of thing. And I imagine traveling with your grandparents was fun. It was more of an adventure to be rootless for a moment. to be cast to drift to go look for something different. And you're dealing with stuff where you're in this, as you just described it, like a kind of a chaos of life.

And so an RV is very iconic of this, you know, not water lust exactly, but definitely you're not, it's not a house. It's not a stable residence. It's a traveling, it's an icon of travel itself of change and whatnot.

And you're in the, you're facing in the direction of travel. You're facing, towards the cockpit where you would assume control you're looking in the direction that the thing would go if it was moving and you're in

the kind of social hearth middle kitchen section and you're being handed something that is a gift of recreation a comfort so all of these things are coming together in like look at where you are

right now in a way does that make sense I may not be characterizing it very well, but it's like dreams always start with a premise, with a with a thought experiment like, okay, what if now we're going to follow that out. So in this one, it's like, okay, here's where you are and now we're going to look at where you're going, something like that. If it resonates, it does. If it doesn't, we can look at a different angle.

Well, I really honestly, when I say it, analyzed it, I really have not analyzed it in this psychological sense that you would analyze it. That's how I've analyzed in the sense. You're doing this other thing that's great. But really what I've been doing is just thinking about it more and trying to think about not so much what it means as a metaphor, but more literally is this like a vision from the future. You know what I mean? Like that kind of thing. Very well. Because it just, it's not, it just doesn't, it doesn't, it, it, usually I don't write down my dreams.

And I do get some pretty fantastic dreams sometimes, but this one I had to write down. This one felt important. Yeah. Yeah. I think it is. And okay, so there's two things I got to say. I don't dismiss the spooky. We were talking about that earlier too.

I love, I love all that stuff. I'm very skeptical. What I do with dreams is I set it aside only because I don't know what to do with it. I, yeah. If you were to ask me, Ben, is this dream a prophecy? I couldn't tell you. Maybe. Sure.

Absolutely possible. I don't know how to tell the difference. So I do stick to the purely psychological. And that doesn't mean that both things aren't true. It may be, this is where you're going and here's what it means to go there. Maybe, maybe. But I do definitely. And also my, well, I should qualify this because it is, I'm interested as we were talking about earlier.

I like the ghost stories. I like conspiracy theories as interesting. entertainment. And it's very disappointing to me that the government went and actually did the damn thing. So I have to actually hold them accountable to it because it was much more entertaining when it wasn't true. But wait a minute. They just said you. That shit to sigh up now. I know it for sure. But but yeah. Yeah. Anyway, there's there's a very, I think it's possible. What you might be describing is a feeling of significance to the dream itself. And I think that's true. I believe dreams self-select for importance. If you wake up feeling some kind of way about it and it

sticks with you, yeah, you probably want to try to look at it and understand it, especially if you have been thinking about it since then. There's something in there that's that's, that, that you feel needs to be understood. Some communication to yourself. Yeah, just to myself, because I just don't get it. I don't really, I mean, I, the later, there was a dream a couple of nights later,

and it felt like it was in the same universe, if you will. But there had been other dreams that didn't. So I wrote those down too, but they didn't qualify. But this one was like underground. I was walking around, and it was like this whole complex of you know had this big nice restaurant area and you know there's some like darken kitchen areas and i was going through and it was emptied out but so it was basically an underground

bunker so that's right i was going to say that speaks to the bunker thing yeah yeah right so this is it's not i'm not really making up much to say this all seems to be from the bunker hunter's idea um but again it was so vivid and i can still to this moment conjure the specific images it's usually it's more like I was in a room and there was a table. I mean, I can really kind of identify a lot. I can remember what the pub looked like. And it had like this corner area that was, because it was underground, you know,

but this area made it look like it was a space outside. You know, it had like a little holographic effect. It was kind of a cheap glass holographic effect, but it gave some space to the whole thing. It actually kind of reminded me to, Do you ever play biohazard? Not biohazard, yeah. Bioshock?

Bioshock. Oh, yeah, yeah. I just replayed the entire trilogy. Oh, yeah, it's such a great. Such a great thing. It kind of has a feeling like that. Like there was a big, it wasn't a window into the underwater, but it felt like that. You know what I mean? Gave it gave the illusion of more space outside, but I could I could tell that it was a illusion.

It was a hologram. Just, and I don't mean like a projected electronic hologram, but a literal hologram. I mean, print it into the glass, you know, when you make it. Did I lose you? No, I'm here. Oh, okay. Sorry, I was petting the cat and then. So that's that, that's that first section.

And we can just leave that where it is and move on. And, you know, because we're trying to evoke, what I found is, you know, if I try to jump to conclusions, of course, we haven't gotten through the whole thing. But we start, the picture paints itself in a way, we just talk about it until, until it becomes clear. And it's each new, each new question. and interaction is a little bit of a brush stroke that happens with that. So I don't know that we need to draw anything else from that. So when you, but as far as describing the transition, scene change,

were you standing still in the same place when you realized you were starting to fade out, losing the visual, or did you go somewhere or do anywhere, anything else? It really, well, part of the reason I think of it, I was describing it as blackouts is because, I had this brief image of being handed the bag and I sort of said or meant to say thank you. Maybe I didn't even say it. And then quick scene change and I wake up in the magazine of whatever it is. And I try to think of some of the details of it and I can picture it. It's hard to describe and I'm not sure it really makes mechanical sense as a magazine.

And I know enough about these things is that my, should have filled this in, but it's strange that it was kind of, uh, so these are the kinds of questions I'm asking myself. They're, they're not really deep metaphorical questions. They're like technical questions. Sure. That's, that's, yeah, and that's my question too is, uh, okay, so, um, you kind of kind of a fade out, fade out to fade in and are you awake and in a new, so what is the rough? More, it was more of a feta. It was a longer seen and more of a fade out with the magazine. and it was moving, but I don't think it was firing. And something obviously told me there was a cannon because maybe I heard the cannon some other time.

The shells and fly cannon. Yeah, right. That could be enough of it. But my question was, what was your sense of the physical space you were in? It was very small or rather large? It was pretty small, but, you know, as a magazine, probably not so small. probably pretty big. But, you know, there was only like one or two.

Yeah, right, right, exactly. And obviously, I must have, I couldn't have just been, what I'm picturing is dividers, steel dividers with the shells list in them. And if I was laying on top of that, that would have been very painful. But I didn't, wasn't necessarily uncomfortable or in pain from that. So maybe there was an area that didn't have that. Maybe it's, I just didn't think of that in the dream. Yeah, when you say cannon shells, you're not talking about canon balls.

You're talking about the shells that would be shot by... Yeah, yeah. It will look like a normal shell, but are the size of a liter bottle. Or it's smaller than a liter bottle or something. You know, I don't think I've ever seen one in real life. I don't have any concept of how big a cannon shell is. I mean, it's all going to depend on the barrel.

But I think there's smaller ones and larger ones. Yeah. Basically, there's one shot by the Navy ships that are like, what are like three feet wide or something's crazy. Well, the gigantic battleships. Right. all those things insane. It's basically just cannon

cannons shells as well. It's all the same technology. And of course, and of course like M1 A1 Canon shells are insane. You've seen those like that. Well, usually they do the stabo rounds

and stuff like that, but they put, it's the same idea. They just put an enormous amount. Probably the biggest shell I've ever seen is a 50 cal, you know, and those,

I think was heavy. It's huge. Yeah. But, you know, I'm used to smaller rounds. Yeah. So you're in a content.

Like if you were put on the spot a little bit to to estimate the size We're talking about 10 feet wide or six feet wide or three feet tall or are you laying down standing Probably I mean I think maybe three feet or four feet tall three and a half feet tall it's call it and a little bit So maybe five feet wide and a little bit longer and I don't really can't picture where the shells I can't even picture whether the shells were going anywhere or They were just there. It wasn't movement. It wasn't a belt either.

Like you would think that something like that would be belt fit. But they weren't. So maybe it was just storage. Who knows? And that would make more sense too, because if I was actually in the place where the cannon was firing shells and it was firing them, that would have destroyed my hearing and would have been very uncomfortable.

Well, if we just stick to kind of the vague impressions that you already gave me, maybe certainly well enough. the impression that so you're in a box that's maybe three by five pipe it's very small and you know maybe you didn't feel cramped in there you weren't like oh this is uncomfortable I'm trapped uh cramped I mean I was like I was cramped but that was not my immediate concern it was everything else so yeah no yeah and so by the way I can be claustrophobic so it's unusual that that was not part of it yeah okay will not

um so the impression you had was that the box was moving because it was attached to or on top of a vehicle and the natural inclination was part of a tank uh whatever these shells would be used to shoot from like why else uh would you have them

um at least this was my inference i didn't know that at the time but but yeah i mean we could say just vaguely, rather than specifically, attached to a vehicle that it's because the box appeared to be shaking as if in movement. Yeah, absolutely. You know, and then like, you can, even if you close your eyes to sitting in the car and you just feel it, you're like, okay, there's the sway of, of going around corners, there's the feeling of acceleration, there's the bouncing over potholes. There's ways to know you're in a vehicle and it's moving that have nothing to do with visuals,

to see, you know, and whether or not it was a tank, maybe it was. Maybe you were on the, you know, it could have been anything, but it was a vehicle of some. kind. Fair enough. And it was and it was part of the RV and the white wolf separate scene, but I knew that it was in the same universe. Related, related. Yeah, yeah. No, no, for sure. And actually, I was going to say earlier that I've had conversations with people in the past where they said, hey, all of my dreams take place in the same universe. I know I'm in a different part of the same dream or the same area that every one of my other dreams. Like if I walk from one area, I go into another area where I've dreamed before and I recognize it as being part part of that other dream.

That's fascinating. So it's not. And they can tell the, and they've had other dreams that are like, well, I had a dream that was not set in that universe, so to speak. And they can tell the difference. So when you say, I had other dreams that I knew were in the same universe, I think it's true. Where I go with that is the idea of, so there's different levels. Like if you are, and I spoke to one person like every dream, they said, Ben, every dream. for decades has been in the same universe.

They're all connected. I'm like, okay, this is something. But if you, they all have the same tone or whatever. Yeah, just the feeling like I'm in the same world.

You know, this is my dream world. They have a very, they have a concept involved. What I was going to say is that there's other times where we revisit the same thought experiment and literally we're in the same universe as a previous dream, which was, geared towards understanding a particular concept.

We're revisiting the concept. So metaphorically, you're in the same space. You're in the same intellectual, hypothetical, theoretical, exploratory space. So that may have been the case. So whatever the dream represents to you, you've been back to that to analyze it, to understand it further, kind of dip in your toe in the same swimming pool.

Long story short on that. The impression I'm getting with this is, you are you're in a container of ammunition. So there's something, there's something unique to that idea. I mean, what is ammunition for? It's used to,

to shoot at a target. And in a, in a military sense, it's, it's the, it's the means by which you defeat the enemy, you know, and you are in the ammunition box as if it,

what popped into my head, as if you are also ammunition. You know, now you don't get the sense that you are a shell, but you are in the box. Like you've put yourself in the box with the ammunition As if you are also ammunition I think there's something there

And what I wanted to say was like Why light blue They were painted or I mean Because what comes to my mind is brass brass shells I mean but they were What is that? And it's and that was so And this is one of the things I have a really vivid image of

It's not that they were like shiny metal blue Not like blued You know what I mean like You've ever seen steel It's been blue They say, yeah, yeah. Not like that, but like painted blue, like light blue. Like a baby blue, powder blue, like a 1950s, yeah, pastel light blue.

And the whole shell, as far as I can remember, I mean, I think the striking, the firing pin on the back might not have had paint. But, I mean, actually, I could, maybe I couldn't see that. Maybe I'm just imagining that. They were, the way they were stacked in these, whatever, splilings. it up by dividers and the thing. They were just, the whole thing was painted blue. I can't remember if the bullet part was, you know, if the round part at the end was painted blue.

I don't think so, but I just can't picture the whole thing. What I was intrigued by was that the whole metal shell that would normally be brass was painted blue or was blue. Yeah. Do you have any associations with that color? Like when you think of that color. Well, the UN. I mean, basically it was UN blue.

I mean, but and actually I think it really was UN blue, but it's it's such, bam, it's not like the UN paints its rounds, UN blue, you know what I mean? Okay. Well, so that brings a different shade of meaning to this.

So maybe you're not the ammunition. And by the way, it was a light, slightly lighter. It was like, pastel blue is a better description. the UN blow. It wasn't exactly UN blue. It was a little bit lighter.

Okay. Sorry. Yeah, no, no. And I'm not trying to seize upon something and hold your, hold your feet to the fire. I'm like, okay, that's it. We've decided. This is what it means, but I like to. That's what I thought about myself. And I think that is like, that's exactly how these things work. You know, if I say the word

tomato, what comes to mind? Potato. Potato. Tomato, potato. Absolutely. So where does your brain go with that? Your brain goes to word association in a different way than someone who says pizza. So that's where we go with those things.

It's like it's not the potato is important as much as the kind of answer you're giving in a range. So the idea that this blue is not exactly UN blue, but it feels like it. That's the association that comes to mind is maybe rather than you being also a piece of ammunition, although that might be a part of it. Like there's, Ammunition has a lot of, and the reason I'm using that word is, it has a lot of different connotations to,

like, if we admit to being wrong, we give our enemy verbal ammunition against us. So that there's ammunition of different kinds, and it can be, but more like seeing inside the enemy's ammunition in a way. Like, because I'd imagine that you're not a fan of the UN, like I am,

or as I am also not. So to be inside, their ammo box is like to see the weapons they have at hand to to use against their enemies if that makes sense which which i think is kind of part of your your journey at least it makes sense and not just your current journeying but your overall journey of like understanding what bad people are trying to do to the rest of us so if you put your if you put yourself inside their ammo box that's like the most intimate view of it doesn't get any more direct understanding then that's the bullet they're going to shoot at the people I'm trying to save.

I'm going to stop there for just a moment and let you think about it. Feel some kind of way about it or tell me I'm way off. Sometimes you get a zing. You go, whoa, wait a minute. No, that gives me a bit of a zing, yeah. Okay. It sounds pretty consistent with all the other stuff. And it's funny that I didn't think of it that way.

I think it's hard sometimes to do this kind of thing ourselves. Like, I don't want anyone to rely on me, but I think you have to talk to talk to someone and have them ask questions, whether it's me or not. You know, I don't know that some of these things, like some of these get real. There's different layers of like beginner intermediate and expert level on dream interpretation. And some of these in the intermediate to expert level, you got to bounce it off of someone. The beginner level stuff is more like anybody can do it by themselves, just write it out, start doing some word association. and some ideas will come to mind. But some of these are like,

it's like you can't see the back of your head without a mirror. You just need somebody to give you a hand. So I think that's, so that would be maybe related to the first part. So dreams, we transition from one section to the next. In a way that like the first scene triggers the next.

And the next is a continuation that refines an idea and takes it further into the final scene for you on this one, two, three. So there's something about looking at where you are currently in your life. And it triggers this idea, you know, it's kind of rootless traveling. I'm grateful to have your recreation facing forward the way the RV would go, maybe wishing you at an RV because your couch surfing or staying in different locations that are less stable than, say,

having your own mode of transportation or vehicle to live in. So where you're at right now in your life as a representative, of this journey of understanding and and and moving towards what is it moving towards fulfilling a meaningful purpose in the world like what you've what you've been through is brought you to where you're at and and you're looking at it also like you know we all ask ourselves has this been a mistake am I where I want to be is this is this has this been necessary um did I make a mistake this is this is a big thing we ask ourselves a lot especially when we're suffering for for just cause we go yeah should I just get my mouth shut

I could have been way more comfortable. Like I was thinking about that too. But then, so that that examination, okay, let me look at where I'm at right now. What's going on? And that leads you to, okay, well, why did I get here? Maybe. And the answer would then be, I got to look at the enemy's ammunition. I saw what they were, what they were going to use to hurt us.

I was inside the ammo box in this very visceral way that I could, you can't unsee that. You can just choose what to do about it. Well, I'm going to fight back. where I'm not. And then my suspicion is that the next part of the dream is to say, well, I did choose

to fight back and here's how I think it's going. Maybe. Here's the difficulties I think I'm facing moving forward or here's my self-assessment of how good I'm doing so far. I might have jumped the gun a little bit on that one. Letting that cat out of the bag before we even start talking about it. But that

is the progression that suggested itself to me. So we can even not get any feedback from you on that. I don't have to ask you if you think that's right or not. We just, I'll be looking at, does that fit in terms of the experience we're going to describe? Yeah. No, that definitely is a, well, it's certainly a candidate. It would explain another aspect of what I hadn't considered. Yeah.

I hold on loosely to all these things. Like, okay, I had an idea. Is it the only idea? is it the best idea i don't know it just just and i got a cat here's laying he's making his bunny arms you see him he's making his bunny arms yeah he's a bunny cc boy he's one of our old man too we got a lot of old old cats and oh and we just got another rescue my wife found a kitten in the bushes the other day and now we got cool she's every time like we can't stop we're uh we're hopelessly we're cat hoarders except they're all well cared for no does my paper stop it um okay

So we've got, okay, we got at least another 20 minutes here. That's not bad. You've had the experience in the metal container with the shells, the ammunition, the ammo dump, the ammunition box with the cannon shells. And these are big. That's the other thing, too, is this wasn't small arms. This is big. This is like invading army style. So that that speaks to the scale of the, or at least how you perceive the scale of the threat.

This is no joke. This is not a piece shooter. So you fade out again and come back into focus in deep snow with an armed person in a parking lot. And the parking lot's at least up a hill where there's a hill nearby. Yeah. And I call it a parking lot because it was a flat. I mean, I guess it could have been a soccer field or a little pool or something. It was an unreasonably flat surface that was covered in snow with a hill.

that went off that would be consistent with a parking lot. Although there wasn't, I can't remember anything parked in it, there was no RV or anything there. But I have the idea that it was a parking lot, partly because I think I saw a road going at the far right edge from where I was, I could see, or I believe there was a road going down from there. Okay. So I think it was a parking lot at the top of this little hill area. area with because there was a little building. And again, the building I can't remember. I don't know if I just invented the building like like whatever the day after I came up with the stream. I don't think

I wrote it down and I think I would have written it down. I think I created the building to explain getting into the underground bunker. Maybe so. And that may have actually been part of that next dream, which is that, oh, by the way, since you know you're in the same universe as the previous dream, you got into this underground area from the parking lot through a little building. And that may have been an addition that came after this dream based on the next one. Fair enough. And it may not be. Sometimes we fill in blanks that aren't exactly critical. Like, you know, why a forest or a wooded. setting would be more important than why a particular tree right there.

Well, it had to be somewhere. You had to see some trees to know it was wooded. Anyway, so not every element is determinative, so to speak. I don't know, but how do you tell? But my answer would be it didn't seem to feature heavily in the events of the tree, which is part of the environment, which is fine. You didn't see any street lamps, like light poles that you would see in a parking lot. That wasn't what gave you the impression.

That's an interesting question. And I thought about this afterwards. Did I see any street lights? And my impression was that it was that I could see that part of this is if you've ever been out when there's a – so it may have just been like strong moonlight. Sure. And in a snowy environment with, you know what I mean? So a lot of reflections.

And so it seemed to me like there was an unreasonable amount of light for what was clearly darkness. Okay. This was happening at night. It was happening at night, I'm pretty sure. But again, these are the kinds of details that's difficult because I go, you know what I mean? If I go back and think about it, I can picture it both ways. But the feeling that I got was from the quality of the light. And the quality of the light reminded me of strong moonlight.

on snow. Okay. And then that's very different than, say, a pool of yellow light coming from a lamp. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I also can't say, because maybe they were, I mean, you know, the feeling of that sodium yellow light on snow is a different color, but it's really similar to the feeling of the

moonlight thing because it's kind of a particular bandwidth or particular wavelength that is unnatural normally that's kind of being reflected back and that's what the sodium lights feel like too. But I don't remember being yellow, but then again, the more I think about it, I can picture it that way. So I think I'm just unreliable. Yes, sometimes that's fine. That's fine. And you were with an armed person and you knew that you weren't friends, but you didn't have the sense that they were, that you were their prisoner either.

Right. Or maybe I was tentatively, you know, suspicious. And so, you know what I mean? I felt like I was the intruder. And I was had been captured or being held for questioning or whatever. But it was just because, you know, who the hell are you? What are you doing here? And I had no good explanation.

You know what I mean? Like that's what it felt like to me. Okay. I wasn't sure if they were, but I didn't really know. And this is just the sense that I had. And I wasn't like. I felt like I should probably protect the guy against the wolf. But then I was like, well, the wolf didn't really attack either of us, officially speaking.

And wouldn't it be stupid to save a guy who's armed in a wolf when I could just run away? And that was when it ended. Like I just, I was just indecisiveness about what to do next. That ended the dream. The phrasing that came to my mind is viewed skeptically by a stranger. Hmm. Because you're like, the way you were describing it was, you know, a suspicious person.

Like, so this person may be, they're there. They know where they are, but they don't know who you are. So they're going to keep an eye on you. And so it's, but it's not like they didn't arrest you. They didn't put you in handcuffs. They weren't aggressive. They were just, as you would treat a stranger, you don't know their motivation. You don't know why they're there.

You're just like, who are you? What are you doing? Yeah, it's almost like a. I mean, another, another, I think I actually did imagine this at one point, but it wasn't part of the dream. You know, it's almost as if I woke up in an RV that wasn't mine and the guy's like, who the hell are you? Right. Hold up your hands. Take, take this bag of weed.

You're having a very different interaction with someone. Someone brought you a gift and you weren't suspicious. You were grateful. You know, you were like, hey, you know, this is actually, this is something I want. Thank you for giving it to me. And it's, you know, very, very much it's, I think, I kind of. of a comfort type of thing of like hey you know even if even if life is tough right now there's the little little things i can still enjoy some maybe maybe they were out of order maybe that was

the result and maybe you know the but this this person in the uh in the snowy area was not the same person that gave you the gift definitely i don't know i actually don't know oh but you didn't know who gave me the well because i didn't well i had the impression that was all together and that the rv was associated and i just actually just assumed that the person was associated with all of it. Maybe so. Yeah. But it would be, I think it would be not not the dreams can't be nonsensical,

but I don't know that it would make sense to you necessarily to say, okay, this person who gave me a gift is now going to treat me suspiciously. Like, what, what's that all about? So I think, I don't know if that fits. I think it's got to be someone different. I was just trying to make sure. I was just trying to make sure. And it's, it's okay that you don't have a strong impression.

And it means that... Or another way to interpret this would be that... Honestly. Well, there's something I also didn't mention, which I may have invented, which is... Never know. Well, I was thinking maybe his family is involved here, like maybe him and his wife and his kid, but we're trying to escape all the madness and it came across a crazy person. And, you know, he doesn't know.

He wants to protect his family. So maybe it was the son or the wife that gave me the bag. Who knows? I mean, I actually can't even say whether it was male or female. Sure. Oh, sure, sure, sure. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like something like that. This is just me adding to it. This just doesn't, I don't think that was in a way. Yes. In a way, yes. But you could have understandings that pop up that are not just secondary elaboration that are not expanding on things and filling gaps from pure imagination. So when you thought back on this guy and how what you believe to be his motivation, you know, there's there's if he was malicious, you would get that. I want to hurt you vibe.

I'm not here to help. And this one, you're like, his motivation was understandable. It's understandable as if, you know he's got something worth protecting like a family and he doesn't know if you're a threat to his family. So he's not going to welcome you with open arms.

He's not going to trust you. He's going to treat you like a suspicious stranger. So you're kind of flushing out his motivation in your mind. I'm like, what did it feel like? What did his vibe feel like? It felt like a man who had something to protect and was just being reasonably cautious rather than,

because you could have attributed to him a different motivation. It could have felt different to you. And then you would have described it differently to yourself. So you've got someone here who's, you know, they're not an enemy, but they're not a friend. They're almost neutral. They don't trust you. So, okay, this is where I was like, when we looked at, like, where are you at right now? How did you get there?

You looked at, you saw the weapons of the enemy and how they're, now you're in a way, you're out in the world communicate. And you're conceptualizing, okay, how do people I don't know, how are they going to look at me? who's going to trust me to share what I've seen and and to you know how do I communicate this to people um so if that kind of feels like where where we're going with this this is this is your self assessment of like how do I think I'm doing how do I how do I think it's going what do I think is likely the likely outcome of my efforts something something in that vein there and I may not be expressing it perfectly, perfectly clearly.

You almost fall down the hill. How did you guys get to the edge of the hill and fall down? Were you moving in the same direction together? Yeah, we were walking along and I was thinking to myself, you know, how did I get myself here? Who is this person? I didn't have it. So it was almost like coming out of a blackout, but walking.

So I didn't have as much information as I would have expected myself to have in that or circumstance. But we were walking. I was questioning, I knew I wasn't armed, I knew he was, and there was no talking, and he wasn't facing me, so I can't even get a face. But we got to the edge of this flat surface, and we both slipped, and ended up getting lodged in the snow. And I was thinking to myself, well, this is an opportunity for me to run away.

Should I just keep falling down the hill into the snow and get away that way, or should I try to back up? And then the wolf shows up. And then the wolf leaps, and instead of eating us, separates us, and kind of almost in a way, provides a way for me to get back onto the parking lot,

so to speak, that I come to call it. But then the question is, well, because the wolf kind of fits all these descriptions too. It didn't necessarily mean me any harm. It didn't bite me, didn't eat me.

It may have just saved me from, somebody who, you know, I can't, which is the good guy, which is the bad guy here. I mean, I guess I should assume the human is the good guy and the wolf is the bad guy, right? Because that's the way this, this, yeah. Or there's no bad guy and there's just different motivations. They're both good guys, yeah. Certainly the wolf represents something. It's not there for no reason.

And the wolf didn't eat him and he didn't shoot the wolf. And the wolf wasn't aggressive, you know, just. Well, it was aggressive. I mean, it came up and it left. And, I mean, it, it, it. I expected it to be eaten by the wolf. It just didn't do that. Gotcha.

Well, I think there's a difference between the wolf was aggressive and you were concerned that a wolf would be aggressive. And he did jump at you, but then the result of that jump was something other than being eaten. It was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what came to mind like. But he was so growling.

He was still growling, but not moving like I could tell the wolf was afraid to have fallen because it got in the same situation as us. So the wolf was trying to keep still, it's still pissed off, so it was growling. So I had to shimmy my way up, and the wolf just decided it wasn't worth it to try to turn its head and bite me because he thought he'd fall down or something. Okay, fair enough. So, okay, well, it's good clarification.

I didn't want to jump to the conclusion that the wolf was there to be aggressive, but each were to do it. But maybe he was. And if that's the impression, you know, actually. Well, either really is a possibility. And the fact that it didn't bite just is kind of demonstrative of that. Yeah, or he might have wanted to, but he's like, hey, you know, I'm going to reconsider because this is now we're in this shit together, which is actually part of where I was going to is like, you're in this place with a person who, let's say they represent the idea of a stranger with their own life and family to, to protect. So they don't know if they can trust you or follow your advice, maybe if you're there to warn them, this is, this is all falling on the shoes of, I've seen the ammunition. I need to tell the world.

I need to tell other people that there's a problem, that, that they're in danger. And so maybe you're in this, so what does it mean to be in this parking lot in the woods? I mean, you're away from city type of areas. There's at least a plateau where it can be a destination for travel. And, you know, a flat space you would imagine cars would be parked so there could be other people there. But then there's also a hill. And you guys are moving in the same direction together. So if we think of it this way, like whether or not you and someone you're talking to,

are allied or they view you suspiciously. We're both moving, say, you and me, we're both moving forward in time in the same country that's having issues. So in a sense, we're moving in the same direction. We're moving forward in time towards whatever's coming. And what's ahead of us is this slipper... We are denizens of the same...

Yeah, we're in the same floodplain, so to speak. Like, that's going to hit us both however we feel about each other. And there's this, like, like as moving forward, you get to a place where there's a slippery slope, which is that that phrasing came to literally. Literally. Literally. But because you are together, you actually prevent each other from slipping independently. You like, there seemed to be an element of the dream, which was, you know, because we were back to back and able, it was the presence of each other that kept us from sliding down, which is, I mean, very in that metaphorical sense of like, we, we must hang together

or surely we shall all hang separately. If we don't, the thing that's going to prevent us from falling down this cliff, individually is that we're holding each other up. So there's a representation that, you know, you can't do this. You can't save the world alone. You've got to do it with other people, even if it's just one other person in that sense. But a completely different danger presents itself. I mean, there's a vulnerability in that, in being in that position where now you're vulnerable

to predation, like natural forces like a wolf could come along. Just the idea of a predator taking advantage of a precarious position. I'm going to stop there for a moment. Does all that sound or feel? Yeah.

Feel right. Okay. Good deal. I don't want yet. I don't want to stop me anytime. I like this and I like these interpretations and it's well it's consistent with what I'm trying to limit myself to what I originally dreamed and it's helpful to be able to add these things as long as I remember to clarify the

for sure post stream and then there's also the thing where like everything i'm doing is secondary elaboration in a way i'm like i'm giving an idea of an understanding to what it might be and all of it could be wrong i've been wrong so many times before and i'm not here to tell anyone you should listen to me should take my word because i know i don't know i don't know shit i just have ideas and i share them i tell people here none of the answers are in me i'm just the guy with has a lot crazy ideas. And, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and even the, um, even the, um, even the predator gets stuck and has to rely on you. So there's like, um, it may be iconic of,

of, of, of, of the environment itself, uh, you know, not just wolves, not just animals, not just predators, but like, like, like the, the natural world around you. It's like, there's, there's, there's, the danger goes far beyond just the two of you slipping off the cliff. Even the natural world in, that might mean you harm, might be a danger. place to live in is going to suffer from mismanagement in a way this is something i don't know if it feels like there's something there there could be another something else is tickling my brain that i can't pull out but like what does the wolf mean that would be totally consider i mean i'm not sure how you attach that particular conclusion to the dream but that's exactly what i think um so was what in the dream

specifically connects that other than my my real world's beliefs on that well that might be it i mean mean, if you look at that and go that, let's see, how does, how does dream interpretation even work? It's like, I make suggestions. Like, what if we look at this as a symbol for something else? You know what? Actually, that's, that's my philosophical position. That is exactly my philosophical position. Like, there you go. And I, you know, there's a lot of things about, okay, why a wolf? Why not a, why not a snapping turtle? I don't know. Wolves are, we have iconic representations in our brain of, of things that stand out to us as like, some people might say, when I think of the forest, I think of wolves. And another person might say, I think of trees. Another person says, you know, I might think of the moss growing on rocks.

And those would all mean various shades of the natural world. This is how I conceptualize it in an iconic image. And there's also something about that, too. I think you said that there was, it was partly because the wolf was on your back, that you were able to get back up. Like he gave you extra leverage or, or, yeah, like, so, so the, I was scared that the wolf first, again, thought it was going to get eaten, so it wasn't really worried. Then immediately after that, I was just afraid that the wolf was going to cause us all to get thrown down the hill.

And then when I realized the whole thing was staying still and the wolf was not budging either for fear of disrupting the precarious position, that I decided, well, I can't wait here forever and I'm not waking up. Because I also, I think I knew I was asleep. I wonder, this is a good question for you, because I have had, when I was a kid, I had a lucid dream, at least one, and I've had lucid dreams before. It only just occurred to me that this might have been a lucid dream, too, but I don't think so, because I don't think the reason that I wanted to get out of that situation was because the dream was becoming boring. You know what I mean? That it would be stupid for me to waste my lucid dreaming sitting next to a lot of it. wolf so therefore I'm going to cry you know what I mean I think it was just a strictly a regular

dream not lucid but I'm attributing something to my deciding basically this what I'm pointing out is that some time elapsed in the dream that gave me the okay well I'm not eaten I'm not going to be eaten and I can't stay here forever so I guess I better and I didn't want to say hey man are you okay or good good doggy I didn't want to do anything or say anything yeah Yeah, yeah, there was, there was an indecisiveness. There was an urge. I wrote down, urge not to talk or make noise. Like you weren't.

And then I think you'd said specifically, I was unsure what to do. What was I going to say? So you were able to perform a rescue in a way. You were able to get yourself on the wolf and this man all back up on top. And then you were in a position. Or, okay, well, now. Could have been able to. I didn't actually do any of that.

All I did was get myself. up onto the, onto the parking lot. And then I was like, well, should I go back and save the guy and the wolf? What should I do here? Oh, okay. No, I missed that. I thought you brought it with you. And that may have been my misunderstanding from listening to you earlier.

So you were able to. So I just, I only got myself out of it. And then I was like, this is what the hell is going on? What do I do? And I just didn't know what to do. And that was the end of the dream. Fair enough. Well, okay.

So we're following this train. I thought that we've this kind of arc of the narrative that we've we've been establishing where you went from. Where am I right now? Hey, was this all worth it? Well, I saw some things that I couldn't keep quiet about. I saw danger coming and I needed to tell people. But look, if I tell people, they might treat me suspiciously and that might leave me vulnerable to other natural things. Like, nothing, nothing more dangerous than, say, being out of doors in bad weather and there's animals out there. And, you know, but in a way, you're like, okay, well, we're in this together. We're moving in the same direction. And we start this slide. There's a slippery slope waiting for us.

We catch each other. And even the natural world that I'm worried about as well, the damage to the environment around me from an environmentalism standpoint. I'm from, you know, I got to live as well. So I don't want the world wrecked, the world itself underneath me to be destroyed. I got to live here. All of that. Actually, the resolution to the dream in a way was I can unburden myself from caring about the world,

from caring about other people. and extract myself from the danger. I can do that. But then you get to the top and you look back and you go, this doesn't sit well with me. I'm not happy to leave them in peril, and I don't know what to do about it. And then you wake up.

Yeah. That seems, does that speak to you in a way of like the resolution of the dream and what these symbols might mean? Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what I came away with it, what happened. And I wonder, let me just look at what I wrote down. Sure. that feeling down.

And the wolf may mean or symbolize something else other than the natural world, but it's a good shortcut for the moment of like not focusing on. And it's consistent also with my whole worst case scenario of prion infestation, whatever, like seeding the environment with prions. That's going to kill not just people, but everything. Going over the notes. Pretty interesting. Were you looking for more in your notes?

Oh, I was just, I was reading through it to see if I wrote that feeling down and I didn't necessarily. Okay, gotcha. Well, that might be the best I can do in the time we have. I think we're kind of, I think we're glad we got actually through the dream and maybe some understanding of what some of those elements could mean to you. It's not always the case that people go, wow, that's exactly right. Sometimes it's like all of that makes a lot of sense and I need to think about it. Fair enough. Don't take anything I've said. If anything I said inspires you to find a different understanding of a given symbol. And I was completely wrong. I'm happy with that too.

If upon further reflection, you look at it and go, it's not what he said, but it was close. It was something else. Like, wonderful. Very happy. Very happy with that. But, you know, for what we've got, I think it fits pretty well with who you are and kind of how you would approach an understanding of these things. Yeah, it's totally unsurprising in one sense because it's kind of, I'm kind of transparent, like everything I'm doing, right? So it's really not that difficult to believe that it would be as transparent as that. But also, but what I didn't think of was me measuring my own performance.

Have I been successful? And also, what I mostly got from it was just this indecision of like, what the hell am I supposed to do? How can I advance any further? What's the next step? And I think, you know, probably the next step for me, because I'm so suppressed on Twitter and everything, it doesn't seem like I can actually reach people that way.

I think I have to do a book or something else. And it's certainly not going to hurt for me to do a book. And I've been planning this bunker hunter's idea, mass recall, deserves this fictional universe, future history thing that I want to do. And I could do it as a book. My original idea for, for micro hunters was about getting other people to write it.

But I always have that idea too. I kind of, I have a bunch of ideas and I'm like, I don't think I'm ever going to write any of them. We'll see. Now, some of them I do. Like, I've got a plan for an entire separate series called a wizard's guide to XYZ.

And it'll be first a wizard's guide to Aesop's Fables, just to wet my beacon and break, break into that. Get my toe in the water, so to speak. wet your beak is something else um wet your whistle wet your whistle yes exactly thirsty i'm thirsty for for a new project uh but i've actually i've got another five or six dream books i got to get published and i've made zero progress on that in the last months and months uh that's okay hey i got 17 out there right now which uh um i was going somewhere with all that no no okay so in terms of i i think a lot of people do self-assessment and

you know am i doing what i want to be doing is it working I think we do that a lot. And it isn't always momentous. It could be as, um, it could be as simple as do I want to change lanes on the freeway? Is that lane moving faster? Do, you know, or do I want to get out, get over to, get over to, move over to the right because there's an accident up ahead. We're always assessing things and thinking, should I change my behavior.

So you've got some pretty momentous stuff going on where you're like, I see a really big problem. I really want to help. I've tried. It's upset the apple card of my life in, in a way that I didn't anticipate and has made it harder to survive. And so in a way, you're looking at it. it going, is this worth it?

Do I want to do this? But you're not giving up. You're just like, is it, okay, if what I've been doing hasn't been working so far, how do I fix that? What's the next step? My question was going to be, you know, if this came up four or five months ago, did you get the Bunker Buster's idea afterwards, or you said you'd already thought about it beforehand?

Yeah, the bunker hunter's idea goes all the way back to mass recall, I think within a month or two. So that was, so all, in fact, I wrote the mass recall. thread four or five months before the movement license tweet. Gotcha. So that super famous 50 million plus tweet was months after, yeah. I'm looking forward to getting one of those someday. Just one, just one.

Yeah. Okay, well, then this may have been, the dream may have come me an answer to that. What do I do? Do I write this book? And then ever since then you've been increasingly convinced I probably need to get this done. I probably need to do this. And then you've actually returned to it in other dreams. You've had other dreams that return to this, the universe of this dream, considering the same topic.

And those dreams might have been, am I certain this is the right path, second guessing? It could have been, okay, how do I implement this? What do I think is the most likely successful path? Those would be my guesses about those other dreams, the likely, likely subject. I think so, yeah. Yeah. And I don't, and by the way, that is one of these answers that I think is I accept as true, which is that I need to work on the bunker hunter's thing, whether that's a book or do

it as a TV show or a movie or a cartoon series or whatever. I think I just don't have the time and effort to rely on myself to, I can flesh this idea out. I could be the executive producer, so to speak. But I don't think I could spend, I can't afford to spend 10 years writing a whole novel, learning how to be a novelist in order to do that. It's not impossible and it's probably a good idea and maybe I'll do it and I'll get rich, who knows.

But I just, what I would rather see is, a culture of this type evolving around that idea, even if I don't get credit for it, and I'm not writing any of it. For sure. You know, like, do you remember the TV show, Firefly, Serenity was the movie? Oh, yeah. Great series.

Like that stuff like that. Like if, because there used to be a culture. We used to have, I mean, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't American, but there used to be a culture of freedom. And if we can have a new culture of freedom and have it based around these kinds of ideas and have our fiction reflect the state of the world that we want to see.

Yeah. You know, the thought that occurred to me is like it's a big undertaking to say, I'm going to write a whole novel. Believe me, I know I've tried over the last 20, 25 years. I've had a novel in my head for a long time. But for you, it might actually work in this sense of like, okay, I know the world that I want to set this in. And you could start by doing small pieces, little novellas even, or essays almost.

Here's one person or a family living in this world and here's their experience specifically. You don't have to worry about the big picture of what's everybody else doing. Don't worry about it. But I would say if you write a few of those here there and everywhere, not only might they be a little compelling things to throw out there, but that might become the book itself over time. Like there's all these different people in the world. and then you can have them interact with each other.

Anyway, just an idea, throwing it out there from one guy who's not going to write his book ever, probably. To a guy who's trying to write his book, let me give you advice. Yeah, it's fine. And I totally, well, especially this happens to me more with music, so I'll tell people what I would do in your situation. Yeah, that's my joke about it. Exactly. Let me tell you how to fix your problem, which I am not invested in at all

and will suffer no consequences for it. It's absolutely true. like you be well it's it's this uh the moat in your brother's eye thing you know what i mean no it's clearly see it yeah i should get i should get i should clean my own room damn it dr peterson uh well okay let's speak in of cleaning the room let's do the housekeeping and uh wrap up the show that's uh i am out of time unfortunately um so once again uh this has been our friend patrick green from an indeterminate location uh somewhere in the american northeast uh he has been in the past a terrestrial radio host from the 90s, a professional database developer,

audio engineering hobbyist, podcaster, Austrian economics enthusiast, and shit poster extraordinaire on X. You can find him at Road to Surfdom 3. Link in the description, of course, below to his account. For my part, would you kindly like, share, subscribe on your way out, smash that like button, et cetera. Tell your friends about the show. I have 17 currently available works of historical.

Dream Literature Book 3 featured this week is O'Neuro Chronology, Volume 1, the evolution of dream interpretation over time, shorter works of historical dream literature that are presented in a three-volume anthology set. So got that going for me, which is nice. You can find all this and more at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, including audio-only MP3 downloads of this very, very podcast. Also, if you'd head on over to Benjamin the Dreamwizard. Locals.com, join the community there.

It's free to join attached to my Rumble. Really, if you're listening to me on Rumble, why wouldn't you join? Just click the button. Just click, click the locals link below. That is enough out of me. I will say, Patrick, Mr. Road to Serfdom, thank you for being here.

I've enjoyed talking to you. Thanks, thanks, Benjamin. It's been definitely a great time, and thanks for having the kiddies there. I love cats. I know, and look at this. He came right for the end of the show to probably to show the camera's butthole.

I bet you. Like they do. Okay. Last thing to say to everybody out there is thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. Talk to later.