Dreamscapes Podcasts - Dreamscapes Episode 179: Vedrfolnir’s Vision

Episode Date: November 15, 2024

Stijn Fawkes ~ https://www.greyhornpagans.com/

Greetings friends and welcome back to another episode of Dreamscapes. Today we have a very cat-heavy episode because he's not going to get out of my lap or leave me alone anytime soon. And our guest is Stein Fox from the Netherlands. He is the host of the Greyhorn Pagans podcast, a worldwide podcast and tribal network for pagans, which is Mystics and Now Wizards. I did an interview with him myself, among other spiritual folk. He's also the author of Pagan Revival, a guide to the ancient wisdom for the modern world. You can find him, of course, at grayhornpagans.com. That's gray, g-r-e-y, grayhornpagans.com.

Of course, link in the description below. For my part, would you kindly like, share, and subscribe? Tell your friend, friends, always need more viewers for the video game streams. Monday through Friday, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. Pacific. I'm taking, you know, and usually when I end a game, I take the week off. So, you know, sometimes not Thursdays, Fridays. I'm not always playing a game. Wow.

complete hiccup. Always need more volunteer dreamers. You can reach out and contact me across a bunch of different social media stuff. Links in the description, of course. This episode brought to you in part by ABC Book 10, the Witch's Dream Book. It's kind of a charming late 19th century pop culture look at, you know, the obsession with the occult and magic focus specifically on dreaming. One of those kind of kind of penny books maybe you'd get down at the, you know, the obsession. the, uh, down at the local grocers, that kind of thing. Uh, very, very interesting. Uh, what else we got here?

I feel like I'm out of order, but, uh, oh, of course, all this and more at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, uh, including downloadable MP3 versions of this very podcast. Uh, most of them released on Fridays before I released the full, uh, YouTube video, trying to drive some traffic there, of course. Um, and if you would head on over to Benjamin the Dreamwizard dot locals.com, uh, that's where, um, I'm trying to build a little bit of YouTube video. the community. It's attached to my Rumble account. Free to join. You can give me money or not, but that's probably one of the best places to reach me if you have a dream. Let's build that

community together. That is more than enough out of me. Stein, thank you for being patient while I ramble through my introduction. I think I was distracted by the cat, too. Oh, cats are hugely distracting. I would know I have two myself who are actually playing outside. at the moment so I for once have no cat distractions because usually I I mean I think there was with the the show that we did that the that big red to me made his his presence know oh yeah he loves he loves when I when I'm on the show we always has to make himself known I mean I don't have much space on my desk but Timmy doesn't care. He's like, yeah, there's always space for me. It's always when we're in the middle of

something else. It's not when we've got plenty of free time. You can come love me right now. He's like, no, I'm doing my own thing right now. I'm going to wait till you're doing your own thing. That's when I want attention. Every time. Anyone who's watch some of my recent video game streams will see. Yeah, he just gets, he just gets right up on the microphone and he's in between me and here and I can. No one can hear me talking. I'm like, Jesus. But anyway, we'll give him love all we can we're just we're just talking so i don't have to take any notes right now it'll be interesting to see what he does later when i start trying to take notes um well yeah good place to start with with folks is like if they have projects going i like to ask them about it and it's um uh you know what i

am going to do those i'm going to move i've got my mouse x resting on top of the stop recording button we're going to move that over here just in case on there he goes what are you doing he saw he saw me get busy now he's going to go after the mouse that's that's that's why i'm moved it. Hi. I like to ask folks, right? That's what he's supposed to do. It's what he's Yeah. He's also a boy cat and we need to get him fixed at some point soon. So he's a extra frisky. He's always chasing around the old. This is my, my, I keep trying to ask about you and I keep talking about me. Sorry. My area compared to the main house, this is kind of the, in a way like the retirement zone, like all the old cats come and live with me. Uh, we like, well, when I say all of the,

yeah, we were the unofficial rescue shelter for the neighborhood. They just show up. The cat distribution system has targeted us for some reason. And we get them all. Anyway, so as they age, you know, but he's the youngest one now. We've got, even before, guy, he's only like two or three months old, something like that. He was just a little too frisky for some of the other cats in the house. They were kind of scared of him. So, that's fine. He can just come, come with me. So now he chases all the elderly cats around here. And they're like, I do not want to play. What's wrong with you? Uh, anyway, anyway. So you're a podcaster and you've got a book out there.

And I mean, how did you get into the stuff? I don't know if we want to do an origin story or if you just want to talk about, you know, when it became important to you in your life, that kind of thing. I mean, it's wide open. Anything? Gee, when did I? I started podcasting. I want to say three years ago, three, four years ago, right? Right around when the whole world got skis.

scared of a heavy flu and decided to to lock it up. Oh yeah. And I mean, I started by just listening to podcasts. I mean, I lost my job. I was a, I was a cook, you know, professional in the kitchen, working freelance. So I got hits double all restaurants closed and I had no income to fall back on.

So I just like I took odd jobs here and there, one of which was delivery on the bike. Of course, I am still Dutch, so we do everything on the bike. And I mean, like if you're working but four or five days a week, a lot of double shifts, of course, because, you know, bills to pay, kids to feed. Um, like at a certain point, your, your playlist on Spotify, it's like, okay, I've heard my entire playlist three, four, five times by now, but I need something to distract me.

I need something to entertain me. Oh yeah. Um, and. Yeah. And I, I like, knew. about the existence of podcasts. It was, what was 2020, like kind of the boom of podcast? Like, that's when everybody started, apparently.

I mean, nobody had anything else better to do, so why not start a podcast? No, I know. I've talked to a lot of folks that have joined me on the program here, and that's exactly their origin story. Like, well, it was during COVID. And then I had nothing to do when I was bored and I decided or I lost my job or those kind of things. Yeah. Yeah, always been interested in religion, always been a bit of a history buff.

I found some podcasts, or one initially that really got me into the pagan podcasting stuff. There was the occult rejects at that time still hosted by and by Patriots. and Lux, his former co-host and someone, or at least at my Patriot, I've had on my podcast now a few times as well, which always, like, still feels weird to me. Like, he and, like, a couple of his, well, let's say podcasting buddies are what got me into podcasting, and now I can consider myself within that circle. But yeah, I actually started out as a guest on a podcast, the My Third Eye podcast with Ghost talking about Tartaria,

but more like the conspiracy hidden history site of the, Tartaria of course you know the the mud floods and and all that that stuff which was incredibly interesting I knew he is his show was you know he did a lot of that stuff I was in the stalingram group I shared a post from another group there and I was like a like goes have you like do you know about this stuff have you have you heard about this before and he's like no this is a a first for me. Oh, I mean, if you'll, if you'll let me, I'll, you know, write some things down and I'll come on the podcast to talk about it.

And I was nervous? I was nervous as a hack. Yeah, yeah. I had like no professional equipment whatsoever. So the audio quality is absolutely horrendous because it was just like my, that's how I started to. My laptop. It was my laptop mic.

laptop mic, laptop speakers that's how I got started initially which was just terrible but yeah I just I had so much fun doing that I did Tartaria twice with him I started listening to other

podcasts and podcasters and at a certain point I was just like you know what I want to do this myself like I just seems like a lot of fun you know talking with people learning from people and initially i kind of wanted wanted to keep it um within the tribe of the grand pagans you know like you know a lot of just um members but you know only so many people have an interesting story

to tell so i kind of started branching out finding different platforms um Finding people on social media, that's also really when my podcast took off when I got the court and decided to, you know, make a Twitter account because that's where everybody was. Yeah. Got to put yourself out there. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, you can, like, try and stick to your guns and just the alternative platforms. But, I mean, they're alternative platforms for a reason. The main platforms is still where everyone is.

So, you know, put your pride aside. Yeah. Like, if you want to make it, you still got to be there. It's definitely a balance to be struck between the, you know, freedom to kind of say whatever you want, which is more on the alternative side. But then there's also the reach of the mainstream platforms a little more, I don't know. Sometimes when you get too big, they start developing all these, you know, terms of service. And maybe they're well-meaning in the beginning, but then they'll always.

always get applied funky depending on the current Overton window of what's acceptable or not to discuss. I mean, I think it's only in the last year or two, not two, but probably in the last year that it's become acceptable to discuss what happened during the global pandemic and whether or not you think some decisions were right or wrong. And, you know, and also, you know, discussing, say, in America specifically, the potential for shenanigans during, during, during, you know, certain political events. Those, those things have also been very heavily punished in some ways.

According to a very specific narrative. It's like, you say anything that isn't approved and you're, you're in trouble. Like, well, I don't like that at all. I like being able to say anything even if I'm wrong.

I actually put out of a tweet once there was like, I'd like to take this opportunity to say, I apologize for nothing and I double down on everything I've ever said, especially when I was wrong. take that it's kind of how whatever it's that's fine I'm not right about everything it's

yeah as you said I mean certain platforms have definitely become better at it under let's say under new management right and but YouTube is still way too

strict about it I had a I had a entire Roundtable podcast deleted because I kind of started with or started doing serious stuff, which is also how I made a lot of connections initially talking about Ragnarok, the end of the world according to the Norris Germanic mythology. Yeah.

Well, that's a great thing to get it to too, is like, let's explain some of these concepts to people so they get a better idea of, you know, what it is and how it works. Because I would say pop culture or mass consciousness understanding of it is, end of the world, literally, you know, apocalypse. They equated to the Christian concept of apocalypse. That's exactly what I was discussing and exploring on the roundtable podcast, because like every major religion has its own apocalypse or its own dark age. You know, Nord-Tumannic mythology, it's Rakhna Rock, which is the

the end of the of the old gods and but you know time is cyclical so kind of starts over again of course in indeed as you mentioned in Christianity you have the the apocalypse in the Hindu Buddhist traditions you have the the Kaliuga which is like the dark age of mankind more like a spiritual dark age. And you could say that that's like the end of the world in a way. So I just I brought a whole bunch of people together and just started talking about that and recording it and putting it online. I mean, I think the longest one we did was six plus hours. Wow, yeah.

Which was a lot and I didn't have a, you know, a good chair back then. So it was just a wooden chair with a cushion on it. So I was hurting because I just, I wasn't comfortable. Oh, yeah. But, I mean, the conversations were incredibly, incredibly interesting. We made a lot of, a lot of connections, a lot of speculations. you know it's a lot about the basically what what Reck and Rock comes down to is the fight between the the giants the primordial giants and the gods it's the final battle the final countdown if you will

and now you have that song stuck in your head you're welcome you lose the game Well, that's, that's interesting, too. So I don't know if, you know, say, Norse Pagans view it differently than Christians in the sense that most, my understanding is, most religions around the world, they give it as cyclical, as you said, wherein the Christianity, though, was meant to be permanent. It's like the apocalypse, the final apocalypse, where after humanity ends, and now we all go to live in heaven. And I wonder if the Ragnarok conception is a little bit different where it is just the end of a cycle in the beginning of something new. It isn't the end of the world per se. It's the end of the world as we know it and we're starting from scratch basically or just with the remnants of the old world, if you will. Gotcha.

I mean, a lot of older religions, ancient religions, see time as cyclical. I mean, the Eastern religions, Buddhism, Hinduism, they all see time as cyclical. It's really only the Christian belief that sees it as linear, although you could say that, you know, if you live on in heaven, it's also a new cycle. Yeah. In a way. It is the end of the old world and a new beginning. Yeah. You know, in the kingdom of heaven where everything is perfect and nothing ever goes wrong,

which just sounds incredibly boring to me. That's a big challenge too. Yeah. It's like, and I don't think it's, well, what am I. So I'm not a Christian. Of course, I'm not a pagan necessarily. I do consider myself a mystic, though, in that sense. And there's a more.

tradition in Christianity where, you know, that hasn't been as popular per se. What I'm trying to say is that if you were to embrace that view of Christianity, then it fits more in line with other religions concept of apocalypse. There is no the apocalypse. There are many. It's it is the cyclical thing. It's the ending of things and new beginnings. And it's a, you know, specifically in the Bible, it's a hopeful or positive view.

It's the end of bad things and the new beginning of better things Is this one way I'd put it Yeah, which is Which is similar in a way to the The Kali Yuga ending like going from the dark age into the golden age Oh yeah It's the same idea but there's definitely a strong mysticism in Christianity but if you really want to explore that

You really have to go to the Eastern Orthodox churches, the Eastern Orthodox Christianity. Those are still, there are still some very powerful mystics within that side of the church. Definitely. And I love the internet meme, the surf the Kaliuga, you know, and then it's got like a skeleton on a surfboard type of thing. And one of the reasons I love it is because there's nothing else you can do. you know it is it is a force around you as powerful as the waves of the ocean

conceptually we can't control the ocean the ocean does what it does and all you can do you know you can't control the waves we can learn how to surf as an old old expression so then that kind of i think that was a meeting of those two eastern western philosophies in that idea of surf the caliuga where it's like you know and not only that it's also a positive message of saying you can still enjoy yourself in the decline of civilization you know you surf. Surf is fun, but it's also a way of staying balanced on a, among the waves and, and doing what, controlling what you can. There's so, God, memes are so deep.

People think, oh, it's a silly picture on the internet. I'm like, no, it's, it's fundamental truth. When memes become popular, they say something that resonates with everyone in a very specific way for a very specific reason. Yeah. That's, that's, that's why I lean into that mystic side. If that's mysticism right there in a nutshell to me. Yeah.

No, exactly. I mean, memes are, like, in their own way, a form of mysticism. They also have a very strong, very strong mystic, mystic ties. I mean, there are so many times that I've seen, you know, chatting online or in certain more esoteric groups of, like, how did you get radicalized? Well, through memes. Yes, that's really it. And it's like so, which is so odd in a way because, I mean, a meme, it's like, it's very short. And of course, you know, meant to be to be funny or provoking in a way.

But like if just a picture like that with, you know, bottom text or top text, bottom text, if that makes you think, if that already radicalizes you, I mean, there's some magic in those things. Well, memes are a lot older than people think. I mean, we, there's folks new to the Internet. And what I mean by that is, like, there's some of us who, let's see, some of the kids today, they grew up with, it's always been here. And so they see it as one thing. And then there's some of us who bridge the gap. And so I was around almost 20 years before the Internet became a thing.

And I got to see it change and then social media occur. But there's a, well, then there's, then there's folks. older than me that are like they don't get any of this they don't know what's going on but if it's understood properly I think the say the Christian cross is a meme it's an we understand icons we understand iconography and and symbol symbolism the yin yang is a meme I mean these are these are very powerful images that are like pre-verbal in some ways I mean we understand the idea of the intersection of two roads the crossroads, and then you've got a cross.

And, you know, in the, in the, say, Christian tradition, it is a symbol of sacrifice. It's a symbol of all kinds. It carries multiple layers of meaning within it, as does the yin-yang, you know, the, the perfect wholeness of opposites in union. I've said this before, but I think the yin-yang is probably the oldest name for God in the creator of the universe and symbolizing that essence. Before we had language. Go ahead.

Yeah, I mean, some would also say that's the Tetra Prometan course. Sure. The Yotevate. I've definitely spoken to way too many people. Way too many mystics. That's good stuff. There's a channel I was going to, well, I'm thinking about it because I'm going to forget. It's a channel called Esoterica.

he's a Jewish professor of yeah you've heard of that oh he's really good yeah he's good yeah he's good I love that okay I just wanted to mention that if you hadn't heard of it that's a that's a guy I love his explanations come on no oh there's another channel I really like he's also a very he's very learned but also a mystic in his own way out of the Hager he does a lot of a lot of good stuff out of Theriger. So, I mean, there's so many, so many good things, you know, people who take it from a more, more sociological, more practical side. And then there are the people who take it from the mystic side of things, but both absolutely, absolutely valid.

Oh yeah. In their, in their own way. But yeah, memes definitely have a certain certain power to them they have a lot of power to them I mean in the UK people are already getting arrested over memes that they they post not even the memes they have made themselves but just memes that they they spread share yeah so if they were if they were meaningless they wouldn't be bothered the powers to be wouldn't feel threatened and they do that's that's the only reason to lock people up is oh no this idea might catch on and that's a threat to our power. So they're going to, yeah, they're going to shut it down. Literally, memetic warfare.

Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's, uh, you in true, say, uh, yin Yang, it's like, I love that. I love that symbol. It's like it's just, I can see it when I close my eyes. It's just a, um, I try to bring together the, uh, the mystic and the practical in that sense of like, uh, and I'm also trying to explain, you know, what is magic and how does it work? And I think we might have talked about this a little bit on your show, but, uh, the idea that, uh, you can, you can do everything possible to facilitate the generation of a new idea. but inspiration just we don't know where it comes from we don't know how it functions where didn't how do new ideas get generated they just appear as if by magic I mean that's yeah

I don't know that we're ever going to figure that out you know what's we certainly scientifically can't make it happen you can only you can only set up the conditions under which it's more likely to happen but then that that that unknown magical quantity comes in and bam we got something new that's never existed before I was like whoa now what I do is I tend to recycle a lot of old things and rediscover old things and go, oh, someone already said that a thousand years ago. Of course they did. I'm not, I wasn't the first.

Go ahead. Well, that's also cyclical, you know, means, knowledge, expressions. That's also cyclical. You know, for you, that might be a new thing that you just thought of. But it just means that you're tapped into the same source or have a certain connection to the same source as the. the previous one who thought of that has. Yeah.

You know, and especially if you come up with it individually, like if you didn't know about it and you're just like, I discovered a new thing and then you start looking. It's like, oh, no, this is actually hundreds of years old. That's awesome. That means that the idea still lives. Like it's still floating around in the ether, or however you want to call it somewhere.

Oh, yeah. And well, at first I was very disappointed when those, because that's happened to me more than once throughout my life, is just rediscovering these things. And then I started to realize, you know, it's not bad that it isn't an original idea. It's actually better. It's actually better that it's so old that people thousands of years ago thought of it.

And it's still true. It was always true. That's the other thing, too, is like, I have a very different view. I was arguing with some folks on a Discord. I'm not in that Discord anymore. But once upon a time, arguing with them about the idea that I don't think anything is ever invented.

versus discovered. I think we can only discover what is there waiting to be found. I don't know that we can actually create anything new. That's kind of an idea that I've come to believe in. And I use the example of mathematics, like the principles of math, we didn't create those. We kind of discovered them, you know, addition and subtraction and division and then all the formulas that, you know, and I'm terrible at math.

I've got like math retarded. So but the concept is like I think that expresses it best. You know, the principles of aerodynamics and lift for an airplane. We didn't create that. We just figured it out. It was already there to be discovered. I'll stop right there. And I don't know if you have thoughts on that concept in general.

Oh, you're, you're absolutely right. I mean, how many of the, you know, major inventions that change humankind as we know it are or were found by. accident. Oh yeah, that too. It's like, especially if you like look at, um, look at alchemy, for example, it's just, uh, what would happen if I do this and this? What would happen if I combine these two things? Holy shit. Okay, that's awesome. I'm going to try and replicate this, see if I can like do it in a controlled environment. But still, they didn't like do it with the intention of I'm going to create this. It's more like, what would happen if and so yeah I mean I definitely think you're on to something there we we

found those ideas like they were already already there I mean the loss of nature loss of physics I mean we just gave him a name and some mathematical formulas so that you know the big brain people know what it is which is another thing that I find incredibly funny. Like you'll see science now actually catching up to religion and spirituality. Yeah. For sure. No, and I think a lot of it has been misunderstood as fantasy, as pure storytelling versus

actually like a, they confuse the method with the, with the substance in some ways. Like, yes, the method is stories. We have to tell a story because we're. storytelling creatures. We have to, there's to be a narrative involved to, to get the point across, or that's one of the most effective ways

to get the point across, but that doesn't mean it was just purely made up and meaningless. It doesn't mean it was just purely for entertainment. It's, I think we're finally understanding that a lot of these stories had, and always,

always had deep meaning, and that the, the lesson of the story, perhaps pre-existed the story, but is still contained in the story, and it's not, you know, so I think every religion of the world that's persisted,

has something to say of value and we just got to kind of figure out what it is it doesn't mean all of it's true or correct or whatever and of course you know you pick your pick your the pumpkin pie that tastes best to you whatever whatever that means you know

I can't think of a better analogy I'll stop there I think you get what I'm saying but that analogy works right yeah yeah I almost I said pick your poison but I'm like that well that's not actually it's not poison it's the It's the opposite. I'm like,

that's a bad analogy. So the opposite of poisons pumpkin pie. Okay. Well, there you go. I guess the other. This is what came to me. Here we are.

Here we are pumpkin spice season. And I'm like, yeah. And there's people have so many different recipes and they're all delicious. Oh, anyway. I like it with a graham cracker crust. Actually,

like cheesecake. That's my favorite. Now we're just going to talk about food. I haven't eaten today. I woke up. I had my coffee and I'm like, now there's, I think my wife made some beefsteel in there.

I'm going to go eat that. In a bit, in a bit. That's okay. So good. That's good stuff. Like this is the season for those kind of dishes. Yeah. Definitely.

Don't eat hot stuff in the summer, but as soon as it gets cold and like fill my belly with warm. Yeah. I mean, that's like in the Netherlands, that's when all the potato based dishes come out again. Nice. Yeah. I mean, I think probably only the Irish have us beat when it. it comes to, you know, the potato and the consumption of potatoes. We're also definitely a famous people for the potato, which is very basic, but feeds so much.

Oh, I love it. So much in it. I love data. Even nicotine. Oh, really? Nicotine in potatoes. I had no idea. Well, a lot of these compounds are in a lot of things you wouldn't, wouldn't, wouldn't

assume that they are. And yeah, no, but that one, that one's like, that is news to me. I don't think I've ever heard that before. And I believe you automatically just because, of course, why not? That doesn't surprise me at all. I don't know if we can conclude it. I'm just thinking back on that drifted far field from where we started, which is fine. Nothing has to be.

This is what it is freewheeling. But the idea of a, why Ragnarok came back, came back to me, the idea of. Yeah. So one thing I wanted to ask you, so being more well versed on the stories and whatnot. you know what what am I trying to ask like what's the symbolism involved in it's the gods versus the giants

and why is it the giants and not something else and why is it winter or why are they ice giants specifically now we can say well because they lived in the north and there's ice everywhere but it also might be something else or anyway I wanted to get your take on like why it's composed

why the story is told that way yeah winter is also very much a thing that is the the precursor to Ragnarok, Fimble Winter, which is, I believe, like, three winters in a row. With no summer in between, right? Yeah. Yeah, so just, you know, darkness and death, really.

Which, I mean, you have those periods up north. Like, if you come close to the pole circle, I think it should be a... around this time of year when there is due to the axis of our planets, assuming it's, you know, a ball and floating through space and whatever, that's just... Separate discussion. Let's assume, yeah, let's just assume what we've been taught in school is right, just for the sake of the story. But there are, and I do believe it's around this time, or like September, a period of like prolonged, probably feeling like eternal darkness, where the sun simply does not rise or does not rise high enough above the equator to give off. It's sunlight, so you have, and I do believe it is several weeks, if not indeed, months of just darkness.

You know, like three in the afternoon, three at night, same. Yeah, just dark. That reminds me that movie, I don't know if you've seen it, 30 days of night, 30 days of night. And it's a, it's set in kind of in the Arctic Circle where there's a full month. where the sun never rises. And it's, I think it's, the movie was,

okay, based on a graphic novel, started as a comic. And they made a movie about it. They think they said it in Alaska, the far north in Alaska. And it's about, uh,

vampires come to town. Well, they can hunt 24-7 for, for a full month. And it's like, how do these people survive? I think Josh Hartnett was in it. If I'm remembering correctly.

I don't remember. Oh, early, no, 2000's movie. Something. Yeah, oh, you looked it up.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. and it was actually very, very well done. I love that high concept was like oh man you'd be screwed of course that's where vampires would go uh yeah oh but yeah that is that isn't an actual thing you know just days and days probably 30 30 days at least yeah of just you know darkness and cold and death and it's also when um well when the rates of

ending one's own life are at the highest, which makes sense. I mean, even here in the Netherlands, so we're not that far up north. But we definitely have our winter dip. We don't really have much of a, or any more, at least, of a transitional period from like summer, and then it's like, oh, the pretty leaves are falling, and now it's actually cold it's more like it just it switches from one day to to the other where that's how it feels like and just goes on for forever yeah you know like march springtime yay but it's still cold and wet outside I thought it was spring I get I get that problem here in in Oregon too where it's like uh it feels

like summer is three days long and winter is and it's always raining and it's always dark and it's always cold and I don't know but then again we get into those those well the three or four months of the actual summer like miserably hot it's just oh my god I can't wait till it cools off like oh no it's snowing uh yeah yeah it's it's so that's so ironic like in summer you're like oh can it just please cool down and and it's winter and you're like can we can get summer back yep my feet will never be warm again well that that that's a while as you were talking and describing things it's like, um, some people get hung up on the specifics and they're like, you know, what is it? Norse paganism can't be true or real or correct because the idea of eternal winter is

silly to someone or three years of winter in a row is silly to someone who lives on the equator. I mean, of course, they're not going to, that's not going to be. And what I was looking at is like, you've got a, you've got the, the narrative level and, and the, the elements that are incorporated, but those are actually symbolic on, on, on one level. up where it's like, okay, yeah, local, local weather phenomenon are going to be incorporated in a story of that region. In a different region, it's going to be the same end of the world with different players and a different setting, but it's all talking about the same thing.

So talking about the same cyclical phenomenon. So in terms of understanding Norse mythology, it's very much going to be set in the, what, sorry, that's how I do. I say Christian mythology, too. so no offense of course um it's it's fine right yeah yeah yeah I don't mean to go it's like well you know

I don't mean that so the way it sounds um so of course if you have those stories told in that region it's going to be specific to that region and say okay but then talking about so why ice giants I mean was there a and then also maybe factoring in the idea of why

loki was a was an ice giant baby or or a half breed and how that came to be and what that means about uh you know so it's it's it's fun yeah no it's funny because a lot of the gods um or you know the gods of the pentheont that we know you know being voton donar tivas their dramatic names at least um i mean you for the american audience you know them as odin thor tier but they're you know they're gods and Germanic is just, you know, taking northwestern Europe as a whole. Those are Germanic countries, Scandinavia, still Germanic.

But they are, I mean, not all, but at least, you know, God, the Odin was a half god. You know, he's the child of God. Loki is a child of a, a child of a, of a job. So a lot of them are have giants if you will, but there has always been this this battle between the the giants and the gods. I mean in fact like that in the sagas in our stories our world our physical world is created out of the body of the primordial ice giant Tim here. You know, it even goes a little, like you can even attach things to it as like a domed earth.

Because from his, the top of his skull, the heavens were made. You know, his brains turned into the clouds. His bloods became the rivers. His bones became the mountains. So like our... And I don't know actually why it's always the giants, maybe because they are this primordial force. You know, they're just, they're in every story, really, like ever written, giants are not the thinkers. You know, they're not the, they're not the Brainiacs.

they're just this big brutes that want things and they want them now and if you're not going to give it to them they're just going to bash your hat simple as that sounds very iconic of like the forces of nature in a way like it is what it is I mean you can't argue with nature it's it's overwhelming it does what it wants and you know you've got to in a sense carve out a living from it do it makes a lot to back this up before I continue as you were describing that, it just occurred to me the idea of, well, Greek gods fought the Titans. So they have their own giants, the Titans. And then just a small tangent made me think that, you know, I don't think there's an apocalyptic element to Greek mythology anywhere. I don't think there's an end of the world in that, not that I've ever heard of.

I'm like, that's interesting, an outlier. Maybe there is, but. I mean, I think. Final battle with the gods that destroys the world? Maybe. No, I think in Greek mythology, I'm not that well versed in the Southern European mythologies. I do know some of it. I think that more equates to the battle that they had with the Titans.

Yeah, that that battle already happened. When Zeus slugged them up in Tartarus, I think if you want to... to compare mythologies. I think that may be like their version of Rackler Rock, I think.

I mean, that would come closest. I don't know if they really have a... But similar type of... Yeah, exactly. And I mean, the gods are very... There are similar as well,

but of course, you know, more attuned to the... or more, you know, connected attuned to the lands of southern Europe. So that's why you have these, the gods of, you know, of the feast with, you know, drinking a lot of wine and whatever. Because, I mean, that's what grows there, you know. That's why olive oil is always in there. This way these big feasts, such as, you know, being lazy and whatever, that's a thing there.

I mean, here in Northern Europe, I mean, we can do that now, but like in the times of our our ancestors or in the times when the Sadas were written, a feast. I mean, yeah, but that's just, it's a lot of, a lot of meat, a lot of hearty, fatty products, because that's what we need to survive in this cold European climate. Like, we can't just survive on. fish, olives, and vegetables. Like we're going to be just too skinny and able to handle the cold winters of northern Europe. Oh, for sure. Yeah.

Well, that also made me think of it. I'm bouncing all over the place because suddenly a thought that I had earlier comes back to me. The idea that I've thought this for a long time, and again, I'm probably not the first one to think of it, think of it. But the idea that we pack in so many of our important holidays into the winter months. And I've always thought that's been a human cultural adaptation to get us through the winter without killing ourselves, without self-deleting. The idea that we've always got something, we've got another feast to look forward to in just a little while. We've got another gathering with family. We've got another, you know, a celebration of the passing of the equinox.

So, hey, it's almost, winter's almost over. Okay. Keep, keep. And then we start looking forward to the springtime celebrations, you know, the return of, uh, return of the pretty flowers and, and, uh, the bunnies mating and leaving their eggs. The return of Pesophony, the return of balder. And also the feasts, I mean, it's of course the one of the major ones that we just, you know, gone through, which I guess technically is still going on, SAUIN. Or turned into Halloween now, but originally is Sowan. That was the first big feast after the harvest.

So that's when you, you know, you prepare for winter, when you celebrate the, well, I mean, going into the winter months that, you know, you celebrate the ancestors because it's a time of death, really. I mean, if I just, you know, look outside, all the trees are getting very barren. You know, it's getting cold. There are, you know, no animals really outside anymore. You won't see bunnies hopping over the flower fields in this time. a year so you could say that goes into the the story the saga of the death of balder of course it was the most beautiful of all the gods the most radiant of all the gods a sun god um or some like god if you will you know he was he was the brightest he brought the light

he brought love but because of a course a trick from loki because Who else? Just, you know, for his entertainment because he thought it was funny. The little side thing I always have to mention, Loki is not evil. Loki is just very self-centered. And he'll do things and he'll trick people because he thinks it's funny. That's it.

Like there is no other reason. It's for self-gain, self-gratification. If you personify these things, There's a lot of different. I love, there's a book that I would recommend. It's called Trickster Makes This World. It's a great book about the look of all the different trickster gods.

And they're not always, they're not always out to hurt anybody and they're not always on your side. You know, but it's that distilled essence of chaos and potential. And Murphy's law, anything that can't go wrong, we'll go wrong. He's,

uh, you know, and what makes that happen? Well, it's looking, it's being, being a, just being himself,

just doing his thing. it's a funny thing too as we're having this conversation too I'm having conceptual ideas like so you've got mankind you've got nature and then the merger of primordial force and

human like existence is the gods it's like halfway in between it's like more powerful than we are but on our side versus nature more I'm not describing this very well but it seemed like a like if you've got the opposites and then the balance

of opposites comes together in the gods. And then we get the stories about the gods, which are supposed to help us understand the giants of, the ice giants and our place, humans place in the world. Yeah. Made made out of this, the body of you mirror.

Yeah. Anyway, I'll stop there. Yeah. No, no, that's, that's absolutely right. And I mean, that's also why I, um, I very much prefer the, uh, the ancient religions, the pagan religions, if you will, because our gods are still,

closer to us you know they are they are gods they are divine they are mighty and powerful but not like not invincible you know they're still they they can die they can be be hurt there is a well indeed almost human aspects to them so it makes them very much much more relatable. It makes their struggles more relatable. It makes their fights more relatable unlike a god who is just, you know,

omnipotent, sees everything, can do everything, just, you know, snip and shit has happened. How can you relate to that? You know, that's, that's not, that's not real. I mean, it's, I guess it's real, because, I mean, there's, of course, this, you know, one creator and, whatever, it will go back to one energy.

But it's a little hard to relate to that. It is. Because I'm not anything like that thing. Which I think even Christianity specifically realized because they're like, well, God had to send his son to go down and be, he had to make himself human, to make himself relatable. So we could understand what he was trying to say. And then so, but that, I think that's bringing that in line with a lot of other stories that

exist where the gods are not perfect. They're even, they're even subject to the control of their own nature. Like they do what they do almost involuntarily. And that gets them into trouble. That's, uh, you know, I would say, I did a thread on, on, uh, Twitter one day. I just got inspired. And there was a thing. It's like, um, it was a pie chart of all the problems in Greek mythology. And it was, you know, this cause that cause, whatever. But the whole thing was just Zeus couldn't keep it in his pants. It was, it was, he was, it was, it was, it was, indiscriminately having all these children out there. I'm like, well, yeah, well, what, what were the Greeks trying to say with that?

And it's like, so there, he's the, it's, it's very much along the patriarchal, you know, archon, king like thing. And, and, and, but it's also looking at the nature. So he's, he's the, he's prototypical male king above all, of course, um, but still subject to, uh, desires. And what we saw is that, you know, so, what is it relating to the point of the thread was that it was saying okay humans specifically human men have a procreative potential we can be the progenitor of uh heroes or monsters and

zeus spawned both because he was indiscriminate so it's like this lesson we're supposed to take from it is not do as zeus does but maybe don't maybe he fucked around a little too much and he because he was indiscriminately yeah we now we got hercules out of that but we also got the the minotar, you know, so you got to be really careful. So human men, be careful how you breed. Don't do it indiscriminately. You want more heroes. You don't want to make monsters.

And if you look at human behavior, if we look at, say, the phenomenon of a guy that's got six baby mamas and all his kids are growing up without him and they're growing up poor and broke. And he has bred indiscriminately. And we don't know how many of those people subjected to bad quality of life and absent father are going to end up turning into monsters. because he couldn't keep it in his pants because he didn't probably never heard of the story of Zeus and didn't take it to heart and that kind of a thing. So I love this analysis from that from that angle.

I don't know where I was going with that. Go ahead. No, but that's that's absolutely true. And that's also what so many people or, you know, the ones who don't know, let's say, or the ones who refuse to to see out of their, you know, little box. They're like, oh, but your gods are not... Yeah, like your gods are not real. Those stories are just are just fantasy and whatever. It's like, no.

I mean, our gods are not real. I mean, they're freaking real to me. I felt them. I felt their presence. I have been in their presence. You know, they have come to me in, you know, whatever form that may have been. And our stories are fantasies? No, our stories are lessons.

I mean, they're great stories first and foremost. They're great kids' bedtime stories, if you will. But there's definitely a deeper meaning to them. We're supposed to learn something from them because those stories are told to us or brought to us by the gods. And they expect certain things. things of us, you know? They're like, if you want to honor us, if you want to be a good man,

if you want to be a good, a good woman, a good husband, good wife. This is how, um, this is how we think you're supposed to do it. Like these are this, the general guidelines. However you do that in your own life, that is up to you as long as you follow these guidelines. So absolutely it's also, kind of a thing that I I talk about in my in my book or let the I was gonna get to that too yeah yeah

in my book of course we don't have a a holy text you know we don't have a we don't have a Bible we don't have a god what is it what the the Hindu texts yeah I can't the Bhagavai

Gita. Yeah, exactly. Like, we don't, we don't really have that. We have our sagas. We have our stories. I mean, poetic edas. The poetic edda, the prose eda, in, in that even, you know, smaller bit, the the Havel, the teachings of Odin.

But they're not religious texts. Yeah. It was all, uh, stories. primarily an oral oral tradition, which is why, yeah, didn't get put down

into a Bible. These were stories meant to be told around campfires as a, you know, metaphorically, kitchen table,

whatever you want to do. But as a, around the campfire communal group experience. That's one thing I was going to say, too, is that a lot of people who dismiss mythologies and religions or whatnot.

There's very rational atheists. Well, no, you can't put God in my hand so I can weigh it and measure it. It doesn't work like that. Of course you can't. But I,

that's why I tease out the idea between, stories which are true and stories which are real or factual. So I look at that in the easiest example is Aesop's fable. I don't believe foxes can talk, but I believe the story of the fox and the sour grapes is true. I don't think it ever happened, but it's expressing the truth. And it's sure, it's using animals that can talk, whatever.

I didn't want those grapes anyway. They're probably sour. Well, there's denial and, you know, there's all kinds of psychological concepts. That's why I want to write that. That's one of the books I got. It's in my brain. I've been talking about this for years, but I've got to get through some other,

I got like five other books to add at first working on it. So that's how I look at these stories. Someone, I wish I could claim I thought of this, but someone I heard mentioned that religion is an adaptive technology developed by humans. And what I mean by that is the, we learn to communicate and then we learn to communicate beyond immediate things and start communicating about conceptual things.

Instead of this is water, it's like, okay, the concept of water. Water is everywhere. It's in different forms. It's in a lake. It's in a river. It falls out of the sky. As we started to abstract. And then that, I think, is where these religions came from when we started pulling together.

That's why I consider all these stories absolutely true. They're saying something true about the human condition, about the world we live in, and about how ultimately how to. And then the religions that survive is like a, we're talking about memes. It's the idea that if a meme lasts long enough, it has some value. It,

it is an adaptive technology that helped that group of people succeed and survive in their environment and live to carry on the traditions. So I don't think there's anything in any of these stories that are, uh, without value or, or pure fantasy. I think it's something to learn from all of them. I think we'd be a lot better off if we can, you know, lean into that instead of dismissing it.

And, you know, we need science, but we also need storytelling. We need to understand ourselves in the world. Because what is it? It's like a why in the how. Science can tell you how. How does this work? How do I accomplish something? How long of a lever do I need to move that rock?

Fair enough. It can't tell you why. Why should I care about moving a rock? Should I move the rock? Maybe the rock is there for a reason. Maybe we leave the rock. you know, can tell you how to dam a river. It can't tell you if that's good or bad for your community.

So it's, that's, and that's how I look at science and religion. It's like the religion side of things. Some people call philosophy, you know, whatever you want to say. But that, that gets into the why. Why do, why do anything? Why care about anything? What's, what is important? But not only that, but like how to live successfully, which in a way then bridges the gap

between science and religion, too. It's like, when you put these things into practice, then it becomes, then it becomes practical. then it becomes like, okay, this actually works. Anyway, I rambled long enough. Go ahead. But it's funny. You were talking about your book. Yeah, yeah.

And just a little, going on a little bit, what you said, like science initially, like the only people who could read or write when, you know, science actually became a serious thing were the monks. Yeah, that was their whole thing. The man of faith. So, you know, they were, like, religion was the first one to introduce science. I think, like, of course, maybe or probably to try and prove the existence of God, of course, you know, because that's what they're all about. Can't blame them for it. You know, it's a question we have always asked us, asked ourselves as, you know, human beings forever. Like, is there something higher than us?

If so, what is it? And science, you know, looking at nature and dissecting it, literally dissecting it, is a very good way to find out. Of course, you know, you see the commonalities. You see like, oh, this is like that. But this is also like that must mean that, you know, this is not by accident. And now it's, and over the years, over the centuries, it's become like a juxtaposition of each other. now as I mentioned early on you see science proving religion again you know the best example that I I always give is the like quantum entanglement out that in a way

through some invisible threads on a universal quantum level we're all connected somehow yeah that's the web of weird that's the the web of fates. That's how we have called it for centuries. So I guess science, thanks for acknowledging that now. I mean, it's a different name, but same thing. Yeah, that was my thing, too, but I was saying, like, you know, put God in my hand so I can weigh it and measure. It's like, we don't only treat material things like they're real. We also treat concepts like they're real, which that's one of my greatest, so I'm most, what is it? Familiar with Greek mythology, of course.

And I, they, the Greeks conceived of, of gods as, as forces, which they said humans, human beings are the playthings of the god. So you've got Aphrodite and capriciously, uh, you, you, uh, have an involuntary feeling of love towards someone else. You, you have a physical attraction, but then you also get to another personality and you're like, wow, all of a sudden, I love this person. And it's a completely involuntary process. So at that point, you have to say, well, the goddess of love is, is real.

I am experiencing a real feeling. It can be described and quantified in a particular way, but these are the forces that move us. And they consider them external to ourselves, or at least above ourselves, outside of ourselves, because they don't just, it's not like Aphrodite lives in me specifically and nowhere else. She's everywhere in that sense. She's omnipresent and can visit anyone, you know, send Cupid with a little arrow to light it up. So we're in describing what does it feel like to be human? What are these experience we have? And then we abstract up levels.

And you get to that abstractions and those are, in my opinion, that's what, abstractions are everybody bit as real as concrete physical objects, you know, categories are real, even though we can't touch them. I spend a lot of time, well, I used to arguing with folks about the idea that the intangible is not less real than the tangible. It just has to be measured in a different way. You can't measure them by the same, with the same set of tools. You have to look at it a little bit differently.

And there's, and I think there's, there's even the folks who are, um, very hardcore, sciencey-minded atheist. It's all fantasy. None of that stuff's real. The gods don't exist. A god doesn't exist.

Whatever. I, I think even they believe in the, the truth of categories and concepts because they use them all the time. Oh, you picture got a little disjointed there. Do you want to, do you want to fix it or leave it? No, it's, It's fine.

It's fine. Here's an interesting thing. Random occurrence or... Or omen. What is that? What do you think? But then there's actual, actual augury in terms of like, okay, well, how do you make sense of that? If we were to, you know, now that my mind just said, you know, 99% chance is just, you know, you didn't stick the thing up there.

Felt fair enough or the clip failed or whatever. You were moving it earlier today. It probably just knocked it loose. a little bit, but, you know, but the, um, leaning into the idea of the mystical idea of omens, it'd be like, now you got to interpret it properly. And that's, uh, no, I don't know how to do that or what framework we would do. That's not my specialty, but, um, real life, real life omens. I don't know. My wife, I'll tell you, though, she hates it when there's the blackbirds, I don't know, crows, ravens, whatever they are. I think, I think in the Pacific Northwest,

we get both, but every now and again, there's a tree full of them. They're loud. And she's like, I do not like this. I'm like, I don't. I don't blame you. I don't really like it either. I don't know why they're here. But, and I can't say we've noticed that it coincided with anything specifically negative or positive for us. But I think we probably just don't have the framework.

Because each, each tradition has its own way of understanding these things and determining whether something is good or bad, depending on the circumstances. Yeah. No, absolutely. I mean, a couple hundred years ago, we thought that, you know, black cats were a, a spawn of the devil. Right? Poor Giddies. And there's still some people today that are like,

you know, we still have that in America specifically, a lot of superstitions. You don't, it's bad if a black cat crosses your path. And to some people, they are like, they will turn around and walk away and go go the other direction. And it's hard for me.

Now, we might say, okay, that's silly. They're just black cats. And then there's some people who are like, well, maybe so. And then again, you look at that. and like, okay, let's say we know the scenario is if you had continued walking forward, there was a mugger on the corner and he was going to stab you in the ribs and take your wallet. Well, the black cat crosses your path.

If you, if you continue on that path, yeah, something bad might happen. Or if you turn around and walk away. And then you look at it and go, well, the black cat then ends up being a warning spirit in a way. You know, not not a, um, it's not there to curse you. It's there to save you. So I prefer those those understandings of these these divine intervention in oh yeah and I think what they did in the in the matrix I think it was a black cat that had the glitch when they reset the matrix the deja vu. Yeah. I think it was a black cat which is yeah that was pretty cool.

Well, we didn't pick him. He picked us. So it is what it is. But I mean that's that's what that's what cats do. You know, they don't they they choose you. Especially my little one, the, uh, she's, I guess technically still kitten. She's a little over a year old. Yeah, they're still small. Yeah, yeah. Oh, she is. I mean, she'll, she'll yell at me when she wants something,

but like very softly yell at me, but still yell at me and doesn't stop. Like, I'll hear her yelling from upstairs when I'm just on the couch like eating. It's like, let me out. It's like, yeah, early, I'm eating. Just hold on a moment, but I would out. I need a break. I need some time. I got to eat without you sitting on my shoulder trying to knock the spoon out of my hand.

Or that, yeah. Well, we were talking about auguries and omens and whatnot. I thought that would be a good time to, we've been talking for about an hour. And I think you've got about an hour left. And I don't want to cheat you out of the dream experience. So are you ready to shift gears? Yeah. No.

Yeah, of course. Let's do the thing. So as per my usual process, I just shut up and listen. and then we'll go through it again and kind of pull out some more details, and then we'll see if we can figure it out together. So I'm ready when you are. Benjamin the Dream Wizard wants to help you. Here's the veil of night and shine the light of understanding upon the mystery of dreams.

Every episode of his dreamscapes program features real dreamers gifted with rare insight into their nocturnal visions. New Dreamscapes episodes appear every week on YouTube, Rumble, Odyssey, and other video hosting platforms, as well as free audiobooks exploring the psychological principles which inform our dream experience, and much, much more. To join the Wizard as a guest, reach out across more than a dozen social media platforms and through the contact page at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, where you will also find the Wizard's growing catalog of historical dream literature

available on Amazon, documenting the wisdom and wonder of exploration into the world of of dreams over the past 2,000 years. That's Benjamin the Dream Wizard on YouTube and at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com. Yeah, I don't have like one specific dream, but there are always a few things that seem to come back to me every now and then. things that I that you know there is a message

in them I just I don't know what exactly a lot of them having to do with either flying or swimming so like really the the opposites

of each other and so the the flying thing nine out of ten times like it's not even you know like Superman flying through the sky I mean that that would be absolutely awesome for a change but it's mostly me running or like running away from something but then like not able to to really create speed. It's like my legs are going a million miles an hour,

you know, physically, so to speak, as for in the dream world, I am running, but I am going so incredibly slow that it feels like I'm not going anywhere. So then I, I don't know, I decide, that like okay since running isn't working I'll try flying and I'll just like kind of you know kind of Superman I guess like sign to stick my hands forwards and then I'm actually able to like make speed and am fully free to move about and I do remember

one of those dreams like some will stick with me yeah you till then I others perhaps but but like when I was running it was in a desert environment I believe the one that comes back to you yeah okay yeah I don't know why but this was this was years ago actually it wasn't a desert like environment and I was running over a road or like over the side of a of a road or something and I couldn't make I couldn't make speed I just you know as I just mentioned but then when I started flying I was actually like fully free and able to like fly over over cliffs and all of that like full free motion to to do anything and go anywhere um and then it also like kind of

It keeps on the movie. Oh dear. But that is also, like at that point, it stops being a chase. Like, I'm no longer chased by anything, or I'm no longer chasing anything. It's just freedom, like pure physical freedom, but still in a... physical body in a way. Like not like not even

flapping like I mean yeah the best way I can describe it is like kind of like Superman in a way just not you know the full speed and all things that he can do which would be amazing but yeah like that's that's the one thing with the dreams that where I'm flying

that seems to be always seems to always be the progression, like trying to run the legs going a million miles an hour, not going anywhere then fly and then everything is okay, then I'm free to go and move and whatever. Yeah, very cool.

So we'll go through that again too, but it's a couple things to say there. So you've mentioned actually two of the most typical dreams that people have. And typical dreams are everything from, you know, falling to missing a train to flying. And also the boogeyman dream, which is they kept characterize it as boogeyman's because it's a sense of running from something that you can't see or don't know what it is. But it's, but you know it's dangerous or means to harm you or it's a sense of due. you're trying to escape from something bad, but you can't, but you're moving slowly.

And that's like the specifically, the boogeyman, boogie man style of dream. And then, of course, the flying dreams, and they take on a lot of different, some people say they fly like Superman, specifically, because they've got that imagery in their mind. Some people describe it as just merely a bit of a levitation off the ground or just above the head level of people,

not really flying around as much as the slow moving levitation. Some people describe it as they flap their wings, but they do. Some people describe it as floating on a, floating reclined as if resting on a cloud And the clouds moving around, but there's no cloud. It's just as if that kind of gentle motion. Yeah, yeah, a lot of different ways people experience that. And there's one flying dream that I remember. So I remember none of my dreams like ever.

I wake up in the morning and all I know is I'm awake down and does nothing comes, comes out with me. So it's like 99% of the time. But I do remember one where I'm in a cullesack. And there's a, it's like a cul-de-sac, but then a bit of a short road to a very busy street. And I'm in the middle. And I start walking towards the busy street. And I start flapping my arms. And over the course of what seems like, you know, 10 seconds. Like it felt like the whole thing took 10 seconds. I did like five seconds of gently floating up and I hit a peek and I gently floated down. and I flap my arms the whole time, and I kept walking towards the busy intersection.

That was it. That was the whole thing. And it was a result of flapping my arms, almost like, well, let me see if I can do this. Let me experiment, that kind of a thing.

So the one flying dream, I can remember. Well, actually, I did have another one, but it wasn't really about the flying. It was more like the camera angle. Like, like,

but anyway. Oh, that's interesting. Could have, could have characterized. So this is not about my dreams. But anyway. I got a drunk, I draw comparison to things, too, just to show the variety.

Of course, of course. But, and there's been a lot of speculation about, well, what does it mean? And, you know, flying has often been related to freedom. And you did mention that like a full free motion. So there's definitely an association of that in your mind. And the, the idea that a boogeyman dream turned into a flying dream that you had this, what I'm doing is not working, the running. I can't, I can't pick up speed.

I can't gain momentum. I can't get a... And the boogeyman dreams aren't always running away from something. Sometimes there's a fear of being too late to something, of not being able to make good time towards a destination. That can be another type of dream.

But for years, it felt like you were just moving slowly? Or actually running from something? Yeah, I mean, mostly from what I remember, like indeed, running away from something and not even I don't know not even necessarily something something scary or like a feeling of of dread of some kind but just running away like I don't know have to get away run okay yeah that's that's the one of the typical one of the things

it makes it a typical dream is that the, what am I trying to say? The dreamer doesn't always know what it is or almost never knows what it is. It isn't like it was a very specific type of monster I was running. Now those do, there are monster dreams like that where

it's a, it's a boogeyman dream, the boogeyman is very specific. But the broader category, most dreams of this type is it's specifically the running, the running away and the running away in slow motion where where it feels like your feet are stuck in molasses or the air is itself is thick and you can't

get away it's no it's not not even not even that it's not like the the air is incredibly thick it's not in slow motion or anything but it's more um oh god like the like the cartoonish running away like you know my feet going a million miles an hour and uh like barely touching the ground or something. It's sprinting in place, but very slowly going forward because I'm just not touching enough ground to be moving forward that fast.

I mean, it's kind of like, kind of like hovering in a way, but just, I don't know, I think that's the best way I can describe it. Like, my feet are not touching enough ground so that I can, you know, go in full sprint. Like, it'll just be, like, the, you know, the, the, the, the balls of my, of my feet or something, or I'd be, like, more scraping over, over the ground and sometimes touching it. and getting a little push forwards, but mostly just spinning, just spinning and not going anywhere. Fair enough. So this is a little bit of a deviation or within the category still of that typical dream.

So it's good to know. And definitely if I make any statements, you're like, it wasn't quite like that. Correct me. Tell me what it was actually like. It's perfect. So we've actually got a situation where it doesn't. It doesn't feel like you were moving in slow motion as much as you couldn't get traction. You couldn't, you couldn't propel yourself forward because your feet just weren't making the kind of connection with the ground that gave you the ability to move forward.

The other thing I was, so I wrote it down, but I wanted to come back and clarify. You said, running over a road and or by the side of the road or next to, yeah. Yeah, and just one The image that jumped straight straight line, one straight road. Yeah. Well, the image that came into my mind when you said running over is almost as if the road

was slightly raised and you were crossing the road, running over the top of a... Now, this is the image that popped into my head, but what you're actually talking about is you're moving in the direction the road is pointing and you're off to one side. Yeah. And you're trying to make forward progress.

Yeah. Gotcha. Okay, good. Well, that's good. That's the other thing, too, is like, for the first thing I got to do is see what you see. Not what I'm, not what I'm, not what I'm, not what comes to my mind when I, when, when, when you first say the words. Um, that's, that's perfectly fine. So running, uh, in the direction along, um, you said a desert like, uh, daytime in the desert.

Um, yeah. I mean, that's, that's the, the one that, I guess over the year stuck with me. sure most I mean that's that's the one that kind of pops up in my my mind's eye but yeah desert and like just complete desert like no no no nothing just desert on both sides sun like very hot desert sun and then the road over which I'm running but then only as I start flying like more of the landscape becomes visible. Like then it actually turns into more of a, more of an actual world, if you will,

and not just that one particular bit. Like then, I can actually see things and I can see like cliffs and blue sky and all of that. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So your experience of it was you're in the desert, are on the road, heat, sun, desert on both sides, of course. The road appears straight?

Yeah. Okay. And then at some point you have the experience, you know, and you're running or you're attempting to run, and you have the experience of this isn't working. What I'm doing isn't working, so I need to try something else. Why don't I try to fly?

Yeah. Yeah, I'm not getting enough traction. My feet aren't touching the ground properly. Why are? I should try flying because obviously running isn't working

so I'll just all fly yeah seems like a reasonable solution right and then as soon as you thought of it it was already happening it was one of those things where it's like you didn't have to do anything specific

um I mean slow process at first like the specific dream that I'm trying to remember is it's kind of like kind of starting off of slow like first just in DHS you know like regular heights kind of just like you know my feet go backwards and the rest is just like staying at that that same level but then like pretty fast after I have just full control, full motion. So it's hovering above the ground.

At first, you know, kind of getting used to it, seeing if it really works. And then it's just, okay, now I can go. And I do. so at first the experience is um you realize what you're doing isn't working you decide to shift gears try something different well let's try to fly and then you do it cautiously and at first you're only flying at a at a you know relatively low height and you're still following the road but then at some point when you realize it's working you take off you leave the road and go explore

go wherever yeah and then uh so we've got some interesting things happening here in terms of like so i'm always trying to go to like okay what's the concepts involved and you've got you've got a road through the desert that says something you've got the you're following the path on the road for whatever reason maybe you put yourself there uh that we haven't maybe gotten around to yet but But the yeah go ahead now either they're from what I I do remember when I have those kind of dreams There's not really something leading up to it. You know there's no you just there like no whole full full backstory Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's you know I'm there I'm trying to run away for Whatever reason because something there is something that I need to run away from

from apparently um or towards or or just the the general concept of not getting traction not making progress what what you're doing isn't working this that's where i was going with it is like you've got a road yeah so you've got a uh so there's a variety of different different symbols going on there you got the desert you got the road uh and you've got the the act of running the act of flying then um so i mean a road is is what we conceptualize often where like it's it's it's It's a path. It's a way. It's the line that connects two points.

It's something to follow that takes us where we're going. So there's, and then, and off the road, in your mind, you've put a desert, which is iconic. And again, stop me if you're like, this doesn't make any sense to me. That's not how I conceive these things, please. But generally, deserts would be like, there's not a lot there. It's not a very hospitable place. And you've actually put it to the idea of this is a hot, there's a hot sun beating down to. and there's just nothing.

So it would be a lot different if you're like, I was on a road and to the left and to the right of me where these things I really wanted, you know, one was a, was a carnival and I really wanted to go there. And the other one on the other side was a, was a Cineban and, man, I was hungry. The road would mean something else.

This is like it's the path through the desert. It's a place you don't stop in the desert. You don't live in the desert. It's empty. It's barren. It's hot. It's, you know, so I think it's very much reinforcing the idea. of the road being, you're following a path to take you somewhere because you don't want to

stay where you are. Where you are is not an inviting place to be. All of this is making sense so far or feels, feels right? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Well, that's how we, that's how we do this thing. We should start, start feeling it out.

So staying in one place was not an option. Staying there, tolerating the inability to make forward progress. You're like, this is, this cannot endure. I have to do something different. And what came to you was. Yeah. I have to get away from whatever is behind me. So, you know, staying in one place and like then trying to figure out what can I do is not an option because I have to keep going.

Yeah, absolutely. And so, I mean, it's a very natural thing to do in real life. We're trying to accomplish something. It's not working. Well, let me try something else. So we shift, shift tactics. and I don't think it's random. I don't think the desert is random, the road is random,

the feeling of something behind you, you must get away from. I don't think the inability to get traction is random, and I don't think choosing to fly is like what I like to do counterfactuals. You didn't suddenly imagine a car pulls up to give you a ride. That's something else. You didn't imagine putting on a pair of roller skates. Oh, now I can follow the road.

It was very specifically leaving the road, actually. It was, and you had to test the waters, in a way, test the waters first. You had to say, well, am I capable of this new maneuver? Is this something within my ability? And at first, you're very, almost training wheel style. I'm only going to hover a little off the road. And. Yeah, too, also to like see, like, can I get enough speed? Like, can I get enough forward momentum?

with this. So it's still about the going forward. It's still about having to move on. So it's all going in one, I mean, don't necessarily fluid motion, but it's all one continuous thing. It's, you know, I have to get away from whatever it is, is not getting enough traction, not getting enough speed running.

I still have to get away. Let's try flying. Can I get enough speed? Can I get enough momentum? Yes, this seems to work. Awesome. Off. Very generalized.

But that's, that's, yeah. Absolutely. No, I was listening the whole time, too. And I'm also kind of pulling out my own, my own ideas that the idea that came to my mind about a desert is that it's not fertile. You know, there's cactuses. And there's little, little shrew mice that, live there, you know, the scorpions and all that stuff.

But it's not a lush green valley. It's not the floodplain with the good soil where the crops grow. So there's like, I'm imagining, what am I trying to say? There's something very suggestive of problem solving and creativity going on here. You're trying to get out of the, you're trying to follow the road out of the desolate place to avoid some bad thing that's behind you. And there's like a, and that bad thing can be something like, you know, the stagnation. the very concept of being stuck in a place that's not good for you, a place that you don't want to be.

I've, in my life, especially during my teenage years, and I guess also a little in my, my 20s, although that manifested differently, I have struggled a lot with finding my place. And for some reason, every place that I did end up, whether that be school or a group of people, group of friends or whatever, it never felt like the right place. It never felt like my place. You know, school was, you know, especially high school, It's always been a disaster.

You know, I, yeah, the whole thing, high school sucked for me very much so. Yeah, I was not a fan either. It was not my place. No. And, you know, I always had, or usually had like one or two people that I was not necessarily friends with, but that I could, that I could chat with like during during break or something but if they were occupied you know by their friend group or their their like regular click or whatever you know already talking with them there wasn't really a way for me to to be there as well like then I was just left to too too much

own left to you know with my myself and I just I spent break time alone or wandering around okay so it's so what about I doing taking notes we I start characterizing something some way and your what pops into your head is this idea of not having multiple periods throughout your life where you didn't feel like you were in the right place and a lot of it had to do with perhaps friend groups or so social belonging it issues, finding, finding the right. Yeah.

And when I was 10 years old, we, we moved to, well, where I live now, actually, which is. You left and then came back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, eventually I did came back, and my parents are calling me, like, kind of crazy for, it's like, whoa, you know, if we told you 10 years ago, you'd say we're crazy and look to you now.

It's like, yeah, I know, kind of. I'm still processing it like myself. Like, huh, I'm back here. Okay. Yeah. Well, sometimes you get there, you had to take the long way. You had to leave first and make sure it's what you wanted. And now you're back.

You're like, yeah. I saw what the rest of the world was like. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And also, you know, it's a better place to raise my kids. You know, it's a smaller, smaller town. It's a place I know. I, like, already lived here.

you know down the road take a left go a little bit further there is the you know the home that i have lived for for a good 10 years uh so i like as as to grow as the crow flies it's a couple hundred meters and given another 10 years your kids would be your kids will be saying it's so boring here i'm going to move to the city and you're like i i did it too and then we'll see if they come back probably yeah yeah it seems to be a pattern right right right I've already spent too long in the city. Even in the suburbs of Portland around here, it's still too many people. Yeah, I'm still looking.

Well, we were talking earlier. I don't know if we got it on camera or not, but the idea of I want to move out in the woods, too, just away, away from people. Yeah. But I was 10 years old. I had like two years left at school before I, you know, went to high school. But the home that we lived in by my childhood home where I, you know, grew up as a baby to 10 years old.

You know, three kids, two parents, it's getting a little cramped, you know, and with me, eventually going to high school, you know, I'm going to need my own space or just, you know, more space in that house. Wasn't really an option. I mean, you know, now that I'm a parent myself and I have a lot stronger bond with my my own parents I understand completely the decisions that they made but when I was 10 years old I was torn out of my comfort zone and placed somewhere that it like it wasn't my hometown the only people I really knew here were family but you know of course no no kids my age it wasn't it wasn't my home it wasn't my town I didn't

know anyone here you know didn't go to school long enough here to actually you know make some friends so it never felt like like my home which made my teenage years a lot harder well for sure yeah well so so you've you described this type of dream as recurring you've had you've had this type of dream more than once every every once in a while it's comes back to you it comes back yeah like that's that's one of the one of the dreams that that seems to come back but the like saying like the the environment might be different but it's always the not getting enough traction kind of scraping my, my feet and deciding to fly.

Like that, that is always the same. So discussing this, and this is how this thing works as too, is I just, I just ramble and then you say some stuff. And what is, what is happening? What you say, what you're telling me inspires ideas and questions. And then what I ask or respond to inspires your own thoughts. So in focusing on this type of dream, and this may be this one specifically, we're getting some interesting stuff that just bubbles up. Well, I got, I'm remembering when I was 10 years old and the first time I was, you know, thrust into a place that didn't feel comfortable to me. And so my natural assumption would then, or question would then be, is that about the time this recurring dreams first started happening?

or was it connected to something, some other event in your life? No, I think, yeah, I think I was like, let's say 14, 15 years old, like well into my high school years, the worst high school years, actually, like 14, 15 were like truly the darkest years of my high school years. that's when those those dreams really started to to manifest themselves I haven't had them a lot since since you know I am kind of you know finding spaces or creating spaces where I can where I can be myself where I can feel myself But every once in a while, it'll, you know, at least the memory of that dream will still pop up.

And the next question for me would be what, when's the last time you can remember having it? Might be a tough one. Sorry. It's hard to nail down too. No, yeah, that's a good one. If it wasn't recent, then it would be like, you know, 10 years ago or five years ago or three. No, I don't know. It wasn't my

few years ago. Definitely a few years ago. Don't remember exactly. When you think about the last time that it occurred, you know,

you were throwing yourself back in the memory. Why was that? Did any particular struggles you were going through at the time come to you? Like, oh yeah, I was also in another place I didn't want to be.

Is it okay to say? Very, a very toxic relationship with the mother of my children. Oh, no. And being, yeah, I know. I love my kids. I just wish I could have had them with a different mother. And I'm very open about this, so you can give this in.

No worries. Fair not. She doesn't listen to any of the shows that I listen to anyway. It's not going to get back to it. Nah. Especially if you're not getting along. Hey, watch a two-hour episode of me talking about my dream. She's going to go, fuck you.

I'm not interested in that. Good. Probably. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I was like also feeling very, very torrent because, you know, I love, I love my daughter. She's daddy's princess. I love my son, my mini-me. which my ex so loves you know meaning me running around you're still not gonna get rid of me

so I I wanted to be a father I wanted to be there I just because that is the like that was the best feeling I ever had and that I ever will have being a father and receiving the pure love of, you know, of a child, of your own child. So I wanted to stay there because I wanted to be a father, because I needed to be a father, because that's the one thing that, you know, like was pure love, love that I, well, really hadn't, hadn't known. but at the same time that also meant that I had to stay in this incredibly toxic relationship which was breaking me down mentally spiritually every way so I was incredibly torn for a very long time and I do believe that that is also when that dream or that that type of dream started to, um, to pop up again.

That's, that's when my dreams like became more vivid anyway. Yeah. Interesting. So with this particular, so I'm going to put a pin in all that for a second. I think it's, I think it's extremely relevant. But I also want to finish the dream and like the, the, the final portion of it after you cautiously tested the ability and put it into practice. this and then eventually you felt confident enough safe stable uh skilled whatever it was

with with that particular ability then yeah you left the road and you were able to go and and what you explored was you went into different canyons you flew up over beutes uh i mean it it all it all stayed desert um i mean not not always of course but there was a lot more um the the world seemed to be a much more alive you know like i said it wasn't it wasn't the um it wasn't necessarily like just desert and scorching hot sun but it was also just you know beautiful giants giant cliffs and i could see i think i could see like some plant life here and there in a blue sky it's it's like the world yeah like the world be became beautiful like the world came came alive when I started feeling you know the

the freedom that I had and yeah up and up and down you know left right whatever I had full full freedom to go wherever I wanted to however I wanted to however I wanted to um yeah it's just as soon as I indeed felt confident enough that, you know, okay, like I'm stable. You know, the flying thing is it's working. I'm not like crushing back down or whatever. I'm actually, you know, I'm stable. You did have that thought the idea of being cautious and doing it properly.

Yeah. Yeah, just because, you know, this had to work. like also kind of the you know the feeling of like sort of a panic like this has to work because if this doesn't work

if the flying thing also doesn't work then I am out of options or if the flying thing works but only at the same speed that I have been trying to run then you know I'm in trouble because, you know, I have to get away at a higher speed.

So if this doesn't work, if that doesn't work, I'm in trouble. Okay. I think that feeds in, not feeds in, but also speaks to, uh, where am I going with us? I had so many thoughts and I started writing and then I wandered off in my own brain. Um, it's interesting to say that you, uh, what am I saying? there was not immediate confidence in the flight skill. There was a cautious testing and an assessment of it. Like, number one,

I don't want to fall out of the sky, but number two, it also needs to work. It needs to get me off the road. It doesn't need to, it can't be the same lack of progress. Otherwise, I haven't really changed anything.

So there's an assessment factor to a new methodology, say, you know, I'm going to try something different and see if it works. It's interesting that it ended up, you know, as I was saying, you didn't strap on roller skates. You didn't stick your thumb out in a car stops like you're hitchhiking. The way you solve the problem, what am I trying to say?

Universally, I mean, the idea of flight to humans is synonymous almost with freedom. It's the idea of, well, here we are, you know, these earthbound creatures stuck to gravity. We envy the birds and that kind of thing. But there's a breaking free. of freedom of movement specifically. I can go anywhere. I can almost do anything. And then you show yourself it being,

not only being successful in terms of your ability to, to utilize and deploy the skill, but the results of it of now the landscape opens up. You see, not only did you get away from the road, but you see the benefits of getting away from the road, which is now everything is, it's more beautiful. There's more lush or green plant, there's life again where there wasn't in the desert.

There's a blue sky that feels inviting and open versus just the oppressive heat of the sun coming out of the sky. It really changes everything. So what it's feeling like to me, like broad strokes and why it would come back is, you know, so why this particular form? Well, whatever you were going through, the first time this dream happened, these icons were so powerful for what you were experiencing that they got, what I call they got crystallized.

So, and that, that happens with recurring dreams a lot is, is the, the, the way we tell ourselves the story is so perfect that every time that situation is around us,

happening to us, threatening to happen in the near future, we're worried about it. It's happened to a friend, a relative, someone we care about. That, those,

that iconography comes back to you, be like, oh, here we go again. It's this situation. And what is that situation? It seems to be like, I'm stuck in a, bad place. I don't want to stay where I'm at. It's not working for me. It doesn't matter what it is.

It can be a hundred different reasons. So it's not, I don't think it's specific to a, to a given reason. Although the change of the setting, I'll tell you what the reason is probably. Like the desert is one thing. If you're in the forest or at the bottom of the ocean, that's another thing. The other cues in the, in the dream will probably give you an idea of like, okay, where is this problem happening in my life? Why is, why did the setting change, but I'm going through the same motions? Yes, you've got this idea of What I'm doing is not working. I am stuck in place. And it's specifically speaking about the idea of changing a strategy.

I need to do something. I need to free myself from where I am stuck. And then through this new method of approach, it's going to open up my potentials, my possibilities. I'm going to get out of a bad situation and go to a better one where I won't feel, you know, stuck in an unfurtile, hot desert. on a road and that's we can conceive of our um path in life often as a road on a road moving forward towards one desk and sometimes it can be changing the

destination you get off the road completely that there's also a freedom in that too it's like you're off the beaten path now you're doing something completely new you're you're experiencing you know new experiences uh and that that can be stuck in a rut let me get out of the rut and go go experience something it can just be boredom but it but it can definitely be as you were saying like I'm in a toxic relationship and this I have to get out of here this what's coming for me is doom it's it's something bad and it's on my heels and if I stand still it'll get me if I don't leave this bad situation um so anyway I'm gonna stop there and what do you what do you think I'm what I'm putting together for you yeah no it it it

absolutely makes sense uh it it brings brings very true. Like it was very much about, and that's the, you know, that's the feeling that I, I constantly had, escape something negative escape, um, from something that was gonna, I was gonna hurt me. If it, like, if it, if it, if it would catch up to me, it would hurt me. So therefore, I had to, I had to escape. Absolutely. I had to run away. I had to fly away.

Just anything to, um, to stay ahead of it and eventually, hopefully escape indeed. Yeah, definitely. And that would, and then conceptualizing,

okay, well, what is the boogeyman? What is the feeling? And it can just be, you know, I'm, I'm sad because I'm lonely.

Because I have no friends in a particular area. I just moved in. to. And staying in that situation means having no friends persists and the loneliness persists. And that could be the boogeyman creeping up on you in the idea of, you know, this state of persistent, lonely sadness will engulf me and it will catch me that will become my world if I, if I stand still, if I don't move, if I don't try something different. And I think this dream comes back to you specifically when you're looking at what you're trying and it's not working. Because we all put different plans into, you know, let me try this. Let me try that.

What if I approach it from this? And if those things are not working, then you go, okay, I need to break completely free of gravity and try something radically different as radical as flying compared to running on the asphalt. And so, yeah, so if that dream comes back, I mean, you definitely want to look at your life and say, okay, where? am I stuck in a place I don't want to be? What do I need to break free of? What is, what is this dream telling me in terms of, it seems like a dream that comes when it's time to take a new approach on something.

It doesn't necessarily tell you what that new approach is, but it's, uh, but, but it's a warning sign. It's just letting you know, okay, something, something's not working. So here, pay attention and do something about it. Uh, that's kind of how I would auger or omen, um, omen that dreams. What does it mean? What does it mean to you specifically? I don't know if that feels right.

Yeah. Yeah. It kind of telling me to escape from that situation to, you know, find, indeed, find something that that is working. Because whatever is happening, whatever I am doing or is, you know,

is happening in my immediate surrounding is not working. where you know, not to my, my benefits. It's chasing me. It's going to, going to hurt me or is hurting me. I am afraid of it. Yeah. Definitely, definitely.

Well, if you feel like we've gotten as much as we can out of that experience and that kind of given a, you know, an explanation to the, to the, to the, to the, theme and it's interesting you know a lot of people want to when they bring um i can't words today this is all of a sudden uh when they bring recurring dreams to me sometimes they want to talk about the way that they're all similar i'm like well we're going to get there but first we got to pick one let's pick one and kind of dial it in and see what's happening here and then you highlight okay this is this these are the similarities between the other dreams and that gives us more of a I almost have to go at it backwards.

I can't tell you what all the recurring dreams mean until we kind of figure out what one likely means. And then we look at the common elements between the other ones. Okay, this theme is repeating. Here's what seems most likely. So that's, uh, that's how I do it. That's, that's how we do the dream thing. I was, we're emailing. You're like, do I need to repair.

I like, no, no, you don't have to prepare. You just bring yourself. I do all, I do, I do all the work. We just have a chat. It was easy enough. Yeah. Yeah, you're you're you're you're very good at this. Oh, thank you. Yeah. Thank you very much. It yeah. I mean, I can I can make certain assumptions and associations. I mean, now of course, you know, so many years after and thinking back and whatever, but you you really break it down, you know, you and then yeah, no, I like it. I like it. And then very often these sometimes these interviews, I'm my noticing a pattern here too. Like when people really,

when I'm, when I've offered something of value and they, they're like, okay, that really feels right. It, it almost feels like they're left speechless in a way of like, they're like,

now they're in their head like going, wow, let me just, I don't know what to say. It's like I'm feeling it. And then it almost feels like these, these interviews are kind of peter out. They don't,

they don't keep a lot of high energy all the way through the end because, well, I just left you with some things to think about. So that's, that's why I carry all the weight on my shoulders. Like, I don't expect you to be entertaining or, or like, you know, I got to cover for the, for the end of it where people are like, whoa, can't mind blown.

So anyway. Yeah. No, I understand. And you, you have definitely broadened my understanding. And definitely if that dream does come back in the future and I'm sure it will. I mean, I'm only 32 years old. Shit can still happen. Yeah.

It will happen too, I'm sure of it. But, yeah, I'll just, I'll think back at, you know, the, the dream wizard and what he told me and just be like, okay, this has to do with change. And something needs to change. What's happening? What does the, the wise old dream wizard was, what did he say again? Exactly. Or you can say, you know, these, these, these. these visions are a gift from the gods and they're sending you a warning. They're saying, look,

you have the opportunity to take action. And if you do, things can get better. So look for that opportunity. And the fact that the dream comes means you, the search for the opportunity is likely to be fruitful. Because you've already identified something, something's wrong. And there's probably something you can do about it. You just haven't brought it to consciousness yet. So whether it's the gods or the subconscious and who says they aren't the same thing. Uh, you know, exactly. I think that's, that's what I'm aiming for with most of these things is to do, you know, give, give someone an interesting experience. Let's talk about it. Whoa, it's blow your mind and whatnot. But also, what can you, what can you take with you? How can this be useful to you long,

long term perhaps? So anyway, that's, that's enough about me. So, um, well, I think we're going to get you out of here with plenty of time before your next, uh, before your next endeavor. So that's, that's good. That's what I was shooting for to give you the full experience. and not keep it too late. So, well, if you feel good about it, I'll wrap it up. Yeah, so I'm good. Okay. I'm good.

Good deal. Well, then I will say to all of you listening out there, this has been our friend Stein Fox from the Netherlands. He is the host of the Greyhorn Pagans podcast, a worldwide podcast and tribal network for pagans, which is Mystics and Wizards and other spiritual folk. You can find him at grayhornpagans.com. that's G-R-E-Y. He's also the author of Pagan Revival,

a guide to the ancient wisdom for the modern world. And of course, for my part, would you kindly like, share, subscribe, tell your friends, always need more viewers for the videos and live game streams Monday through Friday, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. Pacific.

You can also... Oh, wait, wow. I can't words today. This episode brought to you in part by ABC Book 10, The Witches Dream Book 10, a late 1900's view of the kind of pop culture around mysticism and the occult of focusing specifically on dreams fantastic work you can find that of course at benjamin the dream wizard.com including downloadable mp3 versions of this very podcast

last but not least if you'd head on over to benjamin the dream wizard dot locals.com building a community there it's attached to my rumble account free to join you can make donations or just reach out and say, hey, I'd like to be a guest because I want to talk to you. So that, my mouth is getting dry. That's the end of the show. Stein, thank you for being here.

Good, good talk again. Yeah, no, for sure. Thanks for having me. Thanks for breaking it down so well. It's, yeah, truly, you're truly a dream wizard. I can say that much. Yeah, thank you. Very cool.

Thank you very much. And everybody out there, thank you for listening. We'll see you next time. Thank you.