Dreamscapes Podcasts - Dreamscapes Episode 198: Uncharted Waters

Episode Date: July 11, 2025

Angie Hawkins ~ https://www.runninginslippers.com/

There's a, I think there's a big problem with people no longer being bored and thus having discomfort motivating creativity. So what's going to happen in the next few years? I mean, there's a, there's a divide. I think, I don't know, I read somewhere that, I don't know if it was, what's his name? It's Bill, Bill Gates, Bill Gates is Microsoft. That's right, Microsoft. But that he doesn't, or didn't.

didn't allow, and I might have the wrong guy, but he didn't allow his children to have technology up to a certain age. And that doesn't mean never. It just means no phones, no iPads. Go be bored. Go be creative. And let that, because if you just stick a baby in front of an iPad, they're never going to, I mean, then that's just their life from that on is staring at a screen. I think that's, we could talk about COVID delays in learning and social interaction and whatnot. but also the technological stunting of brain development through passive entertainment is no time to be bored.

Greetings friends and welcome back to another episode of Dreamscapes. Today our guest dreamer is Angie Hawkins. She is an inner glow coach, a public speaker and the author of Running in Slippers, a memoir about dropping social masks and social media facades to connect through vulnerability. Yes, I had to read that because my brain is Swiss cheese. I can't remember anything. You can find her at running in slippers.com link in the description. Of course, for my part, would you kindly like, share, and subscribe always need more

volunteer dreamers. You can say I don't have a new episode every week because dreams come in their own time. But I want to hear from you. You don't have to be an author or public speaker. You can be a normal human being who has dreams because most of us do. Oh, wow. What was I going to say? I'm going to leave this into because confusion is also part of it.

That's okay. I'm all about. It's also part of being human. I'm all about real and raw and dropping the mass. Didn't get any more real than me just being a complete brain fart. What was I going to say? What do I say? Oh, I play video games Monday through Friday 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. Pacific most days of the week.

This episode brought to you in part by right over there, ABC Book 13, Dream Psychology. And actually, I did a smart thing this time. I put it up on the screen. It is Maurice Nicole's 1920, work blending his psychiatric training with the theories of Carl Young in light of burgeoning interest in Eastern mystic traditions. So you're going to want to check that out. It's a book's about 228 pages, 28 footnotes, some by the original author, some by yours truly,

the editor and recreator of this historical work. So, of course, you can find all this and more at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, including downloadable MP3s of this very podcast, so that you may take the Wizard with you, wherever you wander with or without Wi-Fi. Last but not least, if you had on over to Benjamin the Dream Wizard.

dot locals.com. It's free to join attached to my Rumble account, one of the best ways to get in contact with me. So that is more than enough out of me. Back to Angie, thank you for being here. Thank you for having me, Benjamin. We were already having a good chat before we officially started the show. But so that is actually a pretty good segue straight into your book of the idea of,

was it specifically your experience during the COVID years or that, that led you to examine the nature of social masks and social media facades? I actually had the idea before COVID. Interestingly enough, I think it was exacerbated with COVID. But it's a memoir, and it covers this total train wreck period of my life. And it's extremely vulnerable. And the reason I wrote it that way is because I was just frustrated not only with social media, because, you know, we put on this, like, edited and filtered persona of what we want other people to think we are.

And so we're not really showing who we are or, like, the difficult things we're going through. Because the truth is, we all go through hard things. But also in real life, if someone asks you how you're doing, even if you're having a shitty day, you're like, oh, yeah, everything's fine. And so I was just getting frustrated with, like, why aren't we talking about things, you know? because we all go through hard things. And I think when you're going through them, thinking that everyone is on Instagram going on vacation and having a great time or in real life,

everyone's fine. You feel so alone in your experience. So the entire goal of the book is connection through vulnerability. Because I think when you actually talk about the hard things in life, it's relatable and it's easier to connect with people that way. Oh, for sure. Yeah, we've got a big, a big, I would say, evolutionary problem. with mass media and social media specifically.

If we posit, and this is the most recent estimate that the human species as such has existed for some people have said 100,000 years, I think it's closer to 350 or more 1,000 years. And for all that time, we existed in relatively small tribal groups. the advent of civilization gathering in large cities was a relatively recent invention that could go back 10 to 25,000 years. I mean, I may be under or over estimating that, but that was one big social change. Now we got to get used to not our 50 or 100 small group tribe. We got to deal with thousands. And how do we do that?

and there's been a part of the great tradition of literature has partly been, hey, here's all the problems you get when there's too many people around and you got to deal with that. So that's one thing. Then you get the storytelling around those things. But it wasn't until, I mean, books collecting stories was a major revolution away from oral history traditions. So that was also something that were, I think, still struggling to a, to what do you do with a story told by someone else a fictional story but also true stories of adventure and and um um not just adventure but um you know true stories of travel and and experience

of other cultures but then we've got radio and then we started and then we kind of went back to it in an oral thing and then we were sitting around the radio so it was almost like a living room campfire situation and then that transformed the tv and there's actually i've seen cartoons in the past where it's like uh You know, then and now, and it's then was sitting around a campfire staring at the fire. Now it's sitting around the television staring at the electronic fire. And that has on top of that now, you know, 100 years later or so we've got this social media thing, which to bring it all back back, if I can't do the weave, I got dementia, right?

That's what they say. To bring it back to what you're saying, that now we have the culmination in some ways of all of that good parts version of life. and now it's social media thing. So it's not just seeing your neighbor and wanting to keep up with the Joneses. You're trying to keep up with someone in a completely different country or social class or whatever it is. And I want what they have. And I wish my life was as good as theirs. And you don't see the boring parts.

That's something we were talking about earlier too. The idea of his kids up, you know, with this constant access to technology and fast edit short form content attention. ability to pay attention is at a deficit but also constantly bombarded with I wish my life was as good as there we feel inadequate by that comparison but we don't see the boring parts

because they edit it out why would you show people that right yeah well and that's just it because I am actually from Chicago and I when I moved to Hawaii a lot of people who I because you know you have friends who like you don't talk to all of the time so I had lived here for like a year and I had been posting things about living here. And I remember maybe like a year and a half into living here,

I was talking to one of my friends on the phone. And he thought I moved here to retire. And I was like, okay, I see why he would think that because I'm posting pictures of me hiking and doing things. But at the time I worked in finance, so it's like I wasn't posting pictures of me working on a spreadsheet because that's boring. And I wasn't even trying to intentionally edit my life.

in a certain way. It was just me posting fun pictures. And I had unintentionally like, because he wasn't the only person who thought that. So I had unintentionally like made that narrative on Instagram. Yeah. There are crafted and curated, um, people that intentionally, I mean, anyone who's set up a shot and they're going, oh, look at this. Like they just discovered it.

No. Right. You found it. Went home, got the camera, brought it out, set up the tripod. And then pretended you were seeing it for the first time. I'm like, that is so many layers of like, who's that guy? Was it Bodriard, the simulation simulacra guy? We've got now the simulation of a simulation of a simulation of life.

So many layers removed. But honestly also is we want to share the things we're excited about it. Who thinks to grab a camera about something they don't care about? Look at this thing. I don't want to show you because I don't care about it. No, I just don't take the picture. But imagine. And then you saw me suddenly have a smirk and a little chuckle to myself.

because I imagine, I imagine you're working on a spreadsheet and you're looking at the camera, you're doing the thing, it's like, live in the dream, live in the dream. Right.

You just need an idea, though. I should like put together a reel of all the boring, like just of one day, like everything I do. Like this is actually my real life. Yeah. No, and you know what?

You could actually start a trend with that. I mean, that might catch on. I think I'm going to do that. It'll become, it'll become the new big thing of like, because there is, I don't know,

there's, there's fads and trends. And it's usually there's people, what is it? We're always seeking novelty. I mean, that's, God, and this goes back to the whole human evolutionary thing as well. Of like, we're programmed to seek novelty because it, for a lot of reasons. But one of them is you got to get out and look what's around you so you can find the things you need to survive. So if you weren't curious, if you didn't want to see what's over the next till, maybe there's something I need.

But then that gets, it's weird to say it gets hacked and exploited because it's natural. And there's a good part to it. And it's like, no, what am I trying to say? I'm going all over the place here today. Yeah. I'm like kind of following you, though, because I feel like, like we still have evolutionary traits, but they're getting distorted by technology. Yeah.

No, no, absolutely. That's what I'm saying. It's like we, it's a fool's errand to try and deprogram humans. We're not going to re-engineer the human animal in my lifetime. And that's actually the history of the 20th century was people who got the idea in their head that they could have, you know, scientific methods of reshaping the human to perfect the human animal. I'm like, that's a recipe for genocide on a scale. We only saw last century and hopefully never again. So it's one of those things where it's like, okay, how do we work with what's natural and still aim for what's best or better?

How do we pull out the best of what's naturally in us? and not exactly repressed, but what was Freud had a term for, sub sublimate. We want to take our negative impulses and sublimate them into positive social expressions. So that's where we get the, I mean, I wish I had a better example, but this works is like marriage came around because we saw that humans have this innate drive to reproduce. and there's better and worse ways to create offspring. And one of the worst ways is to have a bunch of offspring you don't take care of because then they die. That's horrible. But so we want to put it in a constraint, a context where, okay, pick one, work with her, take care of your kids, stable.

And then we got like, I think the root of society or civilization itself is that is that pair bond between two people that are raised. is in their own their own kid maybe that's a rather conservative view that's that's what i think so but then it also takes all that freaky stuff that you want to do and it's like the the the um uh the the saying is there's no sin in the marriage bed now you can sin you can kill people it's not literally but the idea you get freak freaky as you want with your wife no no problem maybe just don't do it with 60 other people because then there's problems uh yeah that's kind of the idea of it's a bad example because that's controversial some people say all marriage is passe or they say um polygamy is better or open marriage,

but whatever, I'm not trying to get political on that, but just the idea of taking natural, um, oh, we, we, uh,

sublimate our, our urge to, to fight and compete. We put it in sports. We put it in economics. Uh, and these are good things. You got to kind of work with human nature.

Yeah. The, what I say is the, um, you don't want to row against the current without a damn good reason. So if there's a current of human nature, sometimes you got a row against it. Sure.

You went too far. You missed the peer. You go back and what it was. Yeah. But usually you want to, maximize that harmony and efficiency in row with the current takes you further. This is my little analogy. I'll stop there.

I rambled on a bunch. I'm sure you have something to say. No, like I just, I think this is all very interesting. I haven't really thought of social media in terms of human evolution, but you bring up like amazing points. Yeah.

Oh, thank you. And I, but I think it's going to play a huge part in how we evolve going forward. too for sure you you were mentioning it it hijacks and exploits what is what is natural um but then it also works with it in some ways uh so i don't know if that's where you're going no but um on that note like there are good aspects like i was just talking to someone the other day TikTok is like 90% junk but there is like 10% educational good stuff but then you get addicted to the scroll because you're searching for that 10% um and i i i i

I tell myself this lie that, oh, I'm just going to like relax and go on Instagram or TikTok, but it's not relaxing because my brain is like looking for that dopamine hit for that 10% that's not junk. For sure. And then you get people like me where my relaxation time is I put on a podcast, but then I put it in the background and I go on Twitter and I argue with people and post my thoughts. And a lot of times I've been trying to do this more often. It's like, okay, let's really focus on what I'm listening to and post comments about that content. What does this make me think? I'm not doing it near enough, but yeah, I get addicted to that scroll too in terms of like there's always something more.

And when there's not, you hit the bottom of the page, you refresh. Oh, look at that in the last hour that I was scrolling, more people posted stuff. What am I looking for? I don't know. Entertainment. I just don't want to get up. I'm comfortable in my favorite chair. I'm relaxed.

I should go to bed. I mean, five more minutes. Yeah. It's a dead. That's self-control type of thing, too. It's really hard. I wouldn't want someone to impose control on me, but I also have to realize some of my habits are not healthy and, and I should change them. So I guess the, what is it, admitting there's a problem is the first step.

Yes. Yeah. Well, how does this broader discussion relate to what you put in the book? I mean, I don't know if you want to talk about how it impacted you and the thoughts you had at the time. Well, like, for me, how it really came to light was. was in 20, well, first of all, I could talk all day about from childhood up into adulthood, all the trauma and everything I went through. But the contrast between real life and social media really was reflected back to me in 2017

because my boyfriend broke up with me and then my dad died. So I was just like thrust it into like the worst grief I had ever been in my entire life. and we live in a just-get-over-it-over-it-society. So after a few months, people just expected me to be okay, and I wasn't okay, so I thought something was wrong with me. And nowadays, like I see on Instagram, there are accounts about grief or whatever, and I do see more discussions about grief.

But in 2017, that was not a thing at all. And this was back when Instagram was, like, just pictures, so people would, like, just be posting their happy pictures. and I just, I thought something was wrong with me for just like being depressed and sad for so long. And so that was when it was really highlighted to me. It's like I thought nobody else was going through this. And then and then Instagram started evolving and conversations starting evolving to include grief. And I was like, why weren't we talking about this several years ago when I was going through it?

And that's when I realized everyone goes through shitty things. We're just not talking about it. so that where the inspiration of the book came about for sure and you uh you just reminded me why i went off on that tangent of um novelty seeking uh oh yeah so we do actually have trends where everything old is new again in that sense it would just like in fashion you know bell bottoms they're back uh except the 21st century is really weird we've almost stopped progressing culturally in some ways like we no longer seem to have eras. They're all mashed together. It's like all of history is happening now in some ways. Okay, that's

another tangent. But yeah. But the idea that we'll have periods of time where people go, oh, no one's talking about grief. Let's have. And then bam, everyone talks about grief. But it has an arc and then it fades. And they're like, okay, let's talk about the next thing. It gets. Ah, you're right. Because we're always looking for people hit a saturation point. We're like, I don't have grief stories. I'm no longer, that's no longer novel. It's no longer interesting to me. And so they move on. So it's like how to I honestly don't know. I hesitate to attempt to construct anything. I want to critique.

I want to observe. I want to give my two cents in a way that I hope is useful. But I don't want to tell people here's what you should do. You should have five minutes a day of grief. That's not how any of this works. You can't do that. You can't do that. But no, you got hit with a double whammy.

And that's, that is really hard for people. I mean, you lost two strong male influence. in your life at the same time. I mean, I don't know if you want to say a little bit about how you got through it. Or was it white knuckle? Was it leaning on certain supports?

Was it moving to Hawaii? Sometimes people do that. They're like, my life is over here. I'll go start a new life somewhere else. Yeah. So unfortunately, I wish I could like say like, oh, yeah, I like have this awakening and everything was fine. I, this was at a point in my life.

I was still looking for answers outside of myself. and actually moving to Oahuahy was part of it because I was like, maybe if I go somewhere and start over. And in all fairness, it was in this attempt to, I was actually seeking happiness. So it's like I was, the intention was there. I was looking to be happier, but I think it was ill-placed because it should have been more seeking inside of myself.

And so like I moved here and, you know, the reality of living here, is much different than coming on vacation here, which I was aware of because I had a friend who lived here for a long time. So I was aware of some of the things, but there were so many things that I was not aware of. For instance, I moved here in 2018, and I kept my job when I moved. So this was way before, not way before. It was like a few years before remote working was the trendy thing to do. So that in itself was very difficult. And compounded on that was there was like this huge management shakeup at work that threatened my role. So the first year that I lived here, I lived in

constant fear of getting light off. And again, this was at a time where remote work was not the trendy thing to do. So I was like, what am I going to do if I lose my job? I felt like that would have been like the end. And then it was extremely difficult to make new friends here because there's still a lot of resentment from the locals about being overtaken by the United States. So they're very resentful of white people coming in and moving here. Also, a lot of people who come here are very transient. And so I understand this aspect of it now, because if someone is new to the island, you don't really want to make friends with them because they'll probably just move in a year. So it's kind of like, why take the time to make friends with someone? But I didn't understand that

when I first moved here. So it was extremely difficult to make new friends. I was in fear of losing my job. To prove my dedication to moving here, I was like, I'm going to buy a new condo immediately to prove that I'm all in and that I'm committed to this move. So I bought a new condo and then a month after I moved in, it completely flooded because shared building pipe back flowed into my bathroom and I was not home. And that would be stressful at any time, right? Yeah, that would have been stressful, like even if I had lived here for like, five years but like i was brand new all this other stuff was going on um what else happened my grandma died uh i actually did end up making a few friends one of them ended up being extremely toxic so i

had to like let that go which was hard because first of all it's hard breaking up with friends period but it was at a time that i didn't really have any other friends what else happened yeah it was like this whole thing. And then COVID happened. And it was, and it was, COVID happened at a time where I had just started making friends. So then COVID happens and it's like,

oh, now you can't hang out with anybody all over again. And the beaches were closed. The parks were closed. And it was just kind of like, what is the point of living in Hawaii if you can't even go to the beach? Because all I could basically do was like take a walk on the sidewalk in a neighborhood. That was like the only legal thing to do, except the state didn't have jurisdiction over the ocean. So the ocean was open. So I was like, I'm going to learn how to surf. But even that backfired because I had taken a surfing lesson

before with this guy and everything was closed, but I texted him because I was pretty confident that he would be willing to give me underground surfing lessons during the lockdown. And I was correct. And he was married and his wife was originally from New York. And she had moved back to New Zealand. And when we had our first few lessons, the reason he told me was because in New Zealand health insurance is basically free. So she was moving back there in case anything happened. And that all seemed to make sense.

But then as we started surfing together more, we became our friendly. And he confided in me that they were actually separating. And when she came back, that they were splitting up. So then our relationship turned romantic. And keep in mind, this is COVID. So he was the only person I was hanging out with, and we were hanging out every single day. So I was like 100% emotionally invested in him more so than I would have been with anyone in any other circumstance. Well, so then his wife finally came back, and then he told me that they had to be married on paper for two more years so that she could get her green card.

and that was just like so devastating and honestly it was just the straw that broke the camel's back because this is like three years so 2017 is when my boyfriend broke up with me and my dad died and it was just constant all this shit happening to me and I just got that whole breakup was just the straw that broke the camel's back and I actually attempted to end my own life because I I was going to say I'd be surprised if he didn't. At least have a thought. Yeah. Because like you, as a human being, you can just really only take so much.

And it was so unrelenting for so long. Oh, yeah. And I actually consider myself a strong person, but I was just like, I cannot do this. And so. Well, you are still alive. That's pretty strong. That's pretty strong. And honestly, it's a miracle because I took, I feel like I always pronounce it wrong.

It's called Clinazepam, I think. So I had an entire bottle of that because I took it for my anxiety. But I would only take a half pill at a time. Like I would take a half pill before I went to bed because it was so strong, it would knock me out for eight hours straight. So I was convinced if I take an entire bottle of like 30 pills, I was like, this will do me in. And pretty much you just woke up the next day?

No. I was unconscious in my shower for a day and a half. Wow. Somehow I managed to text a friend who took me to the hospital. and I was in the hospital for a day and a half. And anyway, so I get out of the hospital and I called a friend because when I got out of the hospital, like I had all these missing texts and one of my friends was like concerned about me because I wasn't responding. So I call her and I told her about what happened.

And I was like, I cannot believe I didn't die because it was truly a lethal dose. And her response was it's not your time. So in that moment, I was like, okay, like, I'm extremely lucky because most people don't get second chances at life. And here I am. And then I was like, there's a reason why I'm here. I need to figure that out. And so that's why I wrote my book, because I had this loose idea about it before.

And I had kind of written pieces, but I was so terrified of like putting myself out there. I was like, no, I cannot write this book because I'm too afraid to be seen. But I just felt in my heart and sleep. like this is part of my purpose and I don't know how or why but I'm just going to do it. So that's why I wrote the book. It's a pretty strong sign from the universe, so to speak, is like, well, you didn't die. Maybe you should write that book. Yeah.

And the funny, though, two thoughts. One reason that will work backwards. A lot of people, I would say most people would say they would rather have a physical, painful injury than experience public embarrassment. You know, if you had like choose. And I would agree with that. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think I would rather like break my leg. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. I never had a broken leg, but I can imagine that, you know, twisted an ankle and it was pretty bad. That kind of thing. But the other, excuse me, the other thing I was going to say is you kind of hit the human stress trifecta in a way.

And I think if you look at the what people, the research on what people rank as the most stressful events in their life. the beginning or end of a relationship, like a wedding, you know, that kind of thing, or just or a breakup, the death of a relative, especially a parent and moving. And you just did all three and you kind of followed. So if I were to this, I am not a doctor, I consult your local psychologist, but I would say if you had the death of a relative and a breakup recently, I would not recommend moving also. Agree. Yeah. I did it. And I do not recommend it.

No, no, there's a certain logic to it. It's like, look, my life here is over. Whatever I thought I was doing and I need a radical change to maybe jumpstart something new. Let's let's use this as a jumping off point for a new grand adventure. It makes sense. But then it is also adding another layer of stress. And then to have social isolation dumped on you and then, you know, in the environment you came to being so difficult to form new connection. I mean, as I was saying, I would be surprised if you didn't at least as a result of all those things have the thought of fuck this.

Life isn't working. I'm just going to leave and not deal with any of this. But then, yeah, to actually follow through on it is the next level, but also understandable. One thing I like to, and I haven't said this in a long time, is I like to let people know that, you know, it's not, what is it? The algorithm wants you to say self-deletion is not an, you. illogical conclusion. But it is a, it's a valid conclusion based on a faulty premise is one of those things.

So if, if we accept the fact that the, uh, pain you're in currently is, is not only intolerable, but will never stop. Stopping it through self-deletion is a reasonable alternative. It,

logically. And we can see that, um, let's say someone is, um, trapped under a, a pile of rubble. and they're in horrible pain and they're not going to be found ever. They're just going to suffer until they die. At that moment, most people would say, look, if you had the option to just end the suffering because you're not getting out of this, most people are going to say that's understandable. But that's an extreme example that's like a thought experiment type of thing.

The faulty premise that most people succumb to with depression is, and that's like depression is a liar, it tells you this is never going to get better. That's what it feels like. That's an honest feeling, but it's not necessarily a foregone conclusion. There's a lot of things that can and probably will change. That's when I was working inpatient psychiatric. I said, you know, it's, it's okay if you feel hopeless. I'm here to hope for you until you can hope for yourself.

Yeah, I really wish I had someone to say that because even part of my hospital stay was the psych ward. And they basically just treated me like a caged animal. It's like. Yeah. And that actually added to my trauma, to be honest. But going back to your point, the reason I openly talk about it, because I know it's like a taboo subject. And to your point, you can't even use the S word on a lot of outlets because you'll get censored.

But I... It's unfortunate. Yeah, I talk about it openly because I think there's a lot of misconceptions about it. One is that it's selfish. But it's like when you're in that state of pure hopelessness, and I like how you translate it to physical pain. Because, yeah, if you were in such extreme physical pain and someone put a gun in your hand, would that be considered selfish to like in that physical pain?

I don't think a lot of people would consider it selfish. But when you're in that severe emotional pain, people call it selfish. And I don't think they're really looking at it from that person's point of view. So I like to point that out. Like you're just so consumed in your own pain. you're not even thinking about anyone else. And as a matter of fact, my friend who took me to the hospital, after I got out, we ended up having an in-person conversation,

and she started crying because she was actually very smart. I was blacked out, so I don't remember any of this. But when she picked me up to take me to the hospital, she grabbed the pill bottle out of the trash can so that she could show the hospital what I had taken. So as a result, she knew what I took. And after she dropped me off, she went home and was Google. about it and she and again it's extremely strong and she was convinced that I was going to die and so

she started crying and she was like I thought you were going to die and again this is like a week after I got out of the hospital and that was like the first moment of like oh shit I didn't even at that point a week later that was the first moment I was like oh I didn't realize how much it would hurt other people because I was just so consumed in my own pain oh yeah or or you're like well you know they'll get over it or they'll be better off with out me. Yeah. A lot of thoughts in there.

Yeah. I didn't think anyone would, like, I didn't even think she would care that much. Because, again, I think we went like an entire week because, like, I just, I can't even describe how I felt when I got out of the hospital. The best way to describe it would be it felt like I was walking around without skin. Because, like, every little thing was jarring. And it's my only goal was, like, to survive the day. So it took me, like, a week to even be able to have a conversation.

conversation with her because that's like I just need to like get grounded. Oh yeah, definitely. And if I, I may be misremembering and I don't want, I am not a doctor. This is not medical advice. I think it is actually pretty hard to overdose on. Um, what's the angioletics is the category, I think, but there's another word for it. You know, anti like, um, Ativan, Clonupin, a lot, a lot of Xanax, uh, something about those particular medications. is they, they are very sedating, but you hit a, like, I may, I may have the science wrong. It's like, you can overdose on a lot of, you can overdose on Tylenol easier than that. You can overdose on opioids easier than other than, uh, the anxiety medications of that particular

kind. There's a word for it. There's a word for the, uh, I have to look it out. Yeah, I can't remember either. Feel free. Feel free. Like I said, there's not a recommendation, but it's actually you're lucky that you chose that medication because it was less likely to kill you.

And again, maybe it may have been, you know, a little luck of the universe type of thing that you didn't have something more effective. Like a Tylenol, it's easier to overdose on that because it just overwhelms and literally kills your liver. And then from that moment on, you are your liver failure to death unless they can fix it up. I remember taking care of one. Okay, dark humor in the psychiatric business. We had a frequent flyer, a person who came in fairly often. And then that was their suicide attempt of choice. and they did it enough times that they were in liver failure and had to go for,

what is it when they cycle your blood? Damn, I can't work today. Well, they put it through dialysis. There we go. Oh, yeah, yeah. They put it through a machine and the machine performs the function of the liver to put the blood back in. And you got to do that once or twice a week or something like that. So that person had hit that point where probably, you know,

so it's less that you die from the overdose itself, but from the, you know, organ killing effect. I had a whole point there. I guess that was it. That you're kind of lucky on that. That's interesting, though, because I didn't realize, like, it was just so strong, I thought for sure, like it would kill me. But to your point, I think it just put me in a coma, basically.

Yeah. Yeah, that's actually how they do kind of, now they don't use a whole bottle and just throw it down your throat. But in a hospital, let's say you have brain swelling and they need to put you into it to a medically induced coma. They basically just sedate you to the point. where you just sleep. You just sleep the whole time and let the brain swelling go down and,

and all that kind of stuff. But, you know, I think even under those conditions, that's why the EMTs will do sternal rubs. I mean, they pick a painful part of the body to inflict pain to try and get you to wake up because mostly that'll come through. So you probably don't want just a sedative like that and then brain surgery or something because you'll feel the drilling and you'll wake up, I can guarantee it. But anyway, so that was another kind of perhaps fortunate,

fortunate thing to do. Yeah. But that's, I think it's a good thing. I think I talk to a lot of folks who have memoirish types of. They're trying to tell their story, you know. And I wanted to bring it back around to, connected specifically to dropping social masks and social media facades and how,

how your experience influenced that coming to that conclusion that we need to be more vulnerable and real with people. What was your, what was your thought process on that? Well, just. The facts that, well, again, so it was highlighted to me in 2017 during my profound period of grief, but then especially after 2020, it was even more highlighted because, like, I had never really heard of anyone talking about attempting suicide because, first of all, most people are successful.

And most people who, like me, who have attempted and survive, they're not really. talking about it. The only person I had ever heard of, there was a guy who survived jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge. Do you know who I'm talking about? Like, he was the only person I had heard of. I think he's the guy who had the famous line of like, uh, the moment my foot left the bridge, I changed my mind and it was too late. Yeah, I think I saw a documentary. I think there's only like two survivors that they could find and they both said the same thing. Yeah. Like they regret it. I realized all my problems in life could be solved. this one right now.

Yeah, yeah. What was I saying? Oh, but again, like nobody was talking about it. So I was like, you know, let's talk about this. And it's crazy because whether it's on a podcast or someone I know, the more I talk about it, the more I've had people tell me like I've had ideation or I've had those thoughts. Like nobody has gotten to the point where they have wanted to carry through with it. But just even getting to the point where you're,

start thinking about it, like that's serious. That means you're in a dark pot mentally. And I don't think we leave a lot of space for people to talk about that. And going back to your point about physical pain, I think that's just as serious as being in physical pain. It's just you don't see it is the problem. Because if you see someone on crutches, you would probably ask them if they're okay. But if you see someone who's sad, you don't necessarily ask them that or even, I don't even say worse, but the most depressed people are actually like smiling and laughing. And we definitely don't ask those people if they're okay. Yeah. Well, there's a couple of things there that I think are important to know. And I'll work backwards too. Let me, um, hold on. Uh, so, um,

there's an interesting phenomenon where you might notice that someone is sad and withdrawn a little bit and doesn't seem to be doing so well. And I'm doing a little downward art here. And then, all of a sudden it turns around and they perk right up and they're happy and uh then they start offering you things hey uh you want this uh old stereo i've got it's because they've they've made the the decision i'm going to go through with it hey i'm relieved there's an end of the pain i feel great and then that's a prelude so that's this kind of a pattern to watch for there's and that's one of the um one of the components of depression is a lack of motivation even the lack of motivation to follow through with the suicide plan until you hit that and then this is also like someone goes to therapy

they go you know counseling or whatnot they get on a medication that works for them they have certain life changes that might improve their situation a little bit and suddenly they've got just enough motivation it's the most dangerous part of recovery suddenly they've got enough motivation to act on those thoughts and the next time one occurs now they're not too depressed to act on it which is so it's so there's like that little window of extreme risk which is also part of why some of the SSRIs get a bad name is because, oh, it's, there's a warning on there. It says may increase thoughts of suicide. No, may give you enough good feeling, may, may move you towards normal, just enough that

you have the energy and motivation to fall through on something you were too depressed to do just a week ago. So there's a bit of that going on in there. And, but I don't know. That's interesting, though. Yeah, because you definitely have to be in, I can't even describe the mental state. Because this is another misconception. People call people commit suicide cowards.

It actually takes an extreme amount of courage. That's one of the scariest things I ever did to like take my own mortality into my own hands. It was terrifying. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of things. We could say normies. That's one way to characterize it.

People who have not had the experience. They're trying to understand it from the outside. they look at it as, yes, selfish, cowardly. And there's a lot of social stigma attached to it from the idea of prevention. You know, it's like, hey, if we, if we stigmatize this, if we make it taboo to do it or even talk about it, then we can prevent it. That's, I mean, it's like, again, a yin-yang thing. It does a little bit and it doesn't. So is that the best approach, maybe for some people?

But I was going to just before I forget again, that's why I write things down. The physical pain, emotional pain thing. There's a whole phenomenon with certain types, specifically borderline personality disorder folks who have such a painful emotional dysregulation that that's why they cut. They do the cutting. Now, it's not an actual suicide attempt. It's I am drawing blood and making a physical pain so that it lessens the emotional pain. People actually do physical harm to themselves because of emotional pain as an escape from it. So it makes sense that, yeah, there's a, there's very little, what am I trying to say?

People who are motivated and in pursuit of meaning in their life are able to tolerate amazingly, physically painful things. But people who have no motivation or meaning, pursuit of meaning in their life because they're so depressed, that emotional pain becomes. intolerable to live in. It's just the deepest darkest thing you've ever got. I mean, anyone out there who's never experienced depression, it's, you believe you are, you will suffer horribly forever until you die.

And so you might as well speed it up. That's, that's what, that's the mentality. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I hate when people use depression and sadness interchangeably. Yeah. Because recently I was reading something on Instagram.

It was like, oh, well, it was talking about how a lot of. of the famous artists like Van Gogh and whoever were actually depressed. And so she was relating that to like, so if you feel depressed, just go do something creative and it'll make you feel better. And I'm like, I think you're actually just talking about sadness. Not necessarily. He's still cut off his ear. Yeah.

And so I'm like, I don't think she really understands what depression is because when you're depressed, it's all consuming. Yeah. It's everywhere and everything. And it's not something you can just kind of white knuckle through sometimes because it's not the same as other types of injuries or pain. Yeah. Very much.

So it destroys that ability to feel the accomplishment of meaningful purpose. It just robs you entirely of that. It gives you a, that's why I say depression is a liar. It just gives you a completely false view of the world distorted. I was going to say something about depression. Oh, um, depression and sadness. So what is the, what is the difference actually? Uh, they are, they are different.

I mean, depression is a. This all goes to as well, like explaining to folks kind of what a psychological diagnosis is and what it is not. You know, if you have cancer, they can do a scope or they got MRI or whatever. Hey, look at that nugget. That's not supposed to be there. Let's cut that out. You have a physical thing. You can see it with your eyes.

You can touch it with your hands. Not so with mental health stuff. It's all state of mind, which is completely immaterial. So how do we know? of a diagnosis. So if I were to say, and I am looking for an answer, not just rhetorical, but there's an object. It has a long trunk covered in bark.

It has branches and leaves, lives on sunlight and air and minerals from the ground. You would say it is a tree. A tree. And that is how we do psychological diagnosis of things like depression or schizophrenia. So if we go schizophrenia, it's like if a person, and hears voices when there's no one in the room and they tell them to do things that they don't want to do and they feel compelled to obey and they isolate and they're so distracted they have a difficulty answering questions. You add up all these little things and eventually

you got a tree. Well, that's that's schizophrenia. That's what we're looking at there. So the same thing with with depression. And it's a I use an analogy to help understand some of these things. the idea that if you have fear because you're being chased by someone who says, I'm going to kill you, you're not paranoid. You have legitimate fear. Now, if you have fear that you're going to be killed and there's no threat, you're all alone in a very secure location and you're just terrified, that is fear out of proportion to actual danger, a matter of degree.

We call that paranoia. You're not, and I love that joke. because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't trying to kill you. So, dark humor in psychology. But okay, so, okay,

all of that to say, it's the same with, um, with depression versus sadness. Everyone is sad once in a while. Oh, you know, my favorite sports team lost.

Oh, I wanted to go see that movie, but I got, I got an appointment. That's, I'll do it tomorrow or whatever. You know, you know,

put things off. There's, um, you know, my, um, I had to let go of a pet. They,

I loved them for 20 years, deep sadness. But you generally come out of it. It's like it's a it's a matter of degree. There's normal and there's abnormal. And so with depression, they would say, you know, it's periods of, there's a bunch of different things, but one of them is an hedonia, the inability to experience pleasure.

And it isn't just physical. Like you need a tasty steak, but it doesn't taste as good. You can, you can listen to your favorite song. And instead of making you want to get up and dance, you just sit and cry. I mean, it's a totally different response to things. Now, you get enough of those things in one place at one time. over a long enough period of time, bam, major depression. And grief can do it too.

And that's, you get, some people get a complicated, I think it's called complicated grief where you, the death of a loved one, more than just being tremendously sad. It sends you into a depression where now you don't enjoy your favorite food. You don't, you're not getting any pleasure from daily activities. You're in such distress that, yeah, you start getting, thoughts of suicide and um well i just said it so anyway um what i think once i think you get away with one sewer slide as they say uh so ridiculous it's so ridiculous it's like really sad that we have

to sense ourselves because i've been doing it too like oh i can't say the word yeah yeah and then there's no um appeal to well this isn't a clinical discussion i mean in the real sense we're not encouraging people to do this we're talking about the phenomenon trying to give perspective and specifically to say, hey, maybe don't do that. Maybe there's an alternative. You can get some help. You can establish new connections. You can get out of the funk.

And not everyone needs medications. Actually, the first line of defense should be behavioral changes. And if you're- Oh, absolutely. Yeah. And if you're going- The first thing I did was hire a coach because traditional therapy. Because I was like, I need help.

Oh, and that was another thing. The hospital, they were like, oh, we're going to set you up with a psychiatrist. I was like, oh, perfect, because I need help. I got on the phone with a psychiatrist. within like the first three minutes of the conversation they were like what pills do you need and they asked me and I was like I don't want pills pills got me into this mess so I hired a coach and yeah it was all behavioral changes my answer would be um viking and adderil that I'll feel great maybe we try something something else that was actually so scary to me I'm like first of all

they're offering me pills, number one. And two, they were asking me what I wanted. I think a lot of doctors are, well, see, this also ties into the whole social media thing. It's like now some more specialty specific terminology and concepts have filtered into the mainstream. So a lot of people now with the advent of the internet and different, different stuff have a web MD. They go to a doctor and they say, hey, I think I have this diagnosis. Oh, yeah. medicational work. So a lot of doctors are not all, but a lot are just saying, what, what do you

think is wrong? What do you want to do about it? And sometimes that just opens the door to a conversation. And sometimes they're lazy as hell. And they're just like, uh, yeah, I agree. Good. Diagnosis, medication, done. And they can spend five minutes and take that other 10 minutes and get paid for that for free after they walk out of the room, you know, uh, because I think it was like 50 minute limit on some of these, uh, getting seen by a doctor, which sucks. Right. Um, that's changing too, though. There's a proliferation now. I'm all over the place, sorry, of, uh, physician's assistance and nurse

prescribers that are working under a primary doctor at a practice. And so you get a little bit cheaper. Uh, and I would like to see that too. I'd actually like to see, um, say nurse practitioners be able to hang out a shingle and open a shop and just take people off the street, like walk on in and I'll talk to you. I got, I got 50 years ago, you know, or a half an hour, whatever long, you know, and if they can do so, I'd like to see that. I don't know.

There's a lot of changes I'd like to say. I think it should be as cheap and easy to get a physical as it is to get an oil change on your car. It should be $20.5.50, you know, out of pocket. No need for massive health insurance and large hospital scale practices of physicians and whatnot. It should be a lot easier. But if I were the Wizard King of America, I would make a few changes.

I would be the, I would. Oh, trust me. I would be the first libertarian monarch. And it's not even the whole bureaucracy of it. Because like, for example, like my experience in the hospital, like I was in the emergency room for a while and then I went to the psych ward. But just the way I was treated and then to see my hospital bill, like my insurance mostly paid for it.

But it's like you're charging me this much to just be treated like a bum off the street. Like they just treated me like it was like a machine. And it's like I'm just moving you through. the conveyor belt. There's a lot of people that are just there for the paycheck, uh, unfortunately. And that's, I mean, that's been a big complaint for mental health care for at least 60, 70 years. Now, it was worse before that. Let me tell you, one of the books, uh, uh, plugging my own content again, um, I think

it was book six or seven in the series is, uh, it's entitled Tyrion's dreams and visions. And it is the, it is a work written by a late, 1600s student of physics, early psychiatrist, basically, or early doctor before they were formally called doctors in a physician sense. Well, that's where we get physician from student of physics, the physical body. Anyway, he wrote a lot about dreams and what he thinks caused them. It was very heavily tied up in his Christian faith, and he thinks your dreams come from God or the devil, et cetera.

And good eating and right living can give you better dreams and prophetic dreams. all that good stuff. But the second half of the book was a polemic. He wrote on the necessary changes to the practice of dealing with people who had mental health issues. And this is one of the earliest works I could find that advocated for visitor limitations limited to, by default, to family and friends, specifically permitted by the patient. Now, up to that point, one of the ways these free public, hospitals. Oh, and actually he worked at St. Bethlehem, which is where we, which they also

called Bedlam, which is where we get the term. It's a madhouse. It's Bedlam. It was named after that specific hospital, the psychiatric care. What they used to do is in order to fund themselves, they would open it to public tours on the weekend. And, you know, well-dressed gentlemen and ladies in their finery would parade through antagonizing the psychotic people for fun on a Saturday afternoon asking them intrusive questions and spinning up the manics and laughing at the schizophrenic in the corner that that kind of thing. And he said, this is barbaric. We should not do that. This is not healthy for the patient. He was one of the earliest patient rights advocates that said, we should restrict visitors. We should not have this be an inappropriate public display.

So that's a little piece of history. I love these books. So that's interesting, though, because those visitors remind me of present. day internet trolls. Like, they're there to like intentionally like prodding. Yeah. Absolutely. That's a great.

That's a great connection. No, it is. But just to also comment on the, or wrap it up in terms of the, the staff in there. I mean, I was,

you know, I'm a kind of a lazy guy in a sense of like, I don't want to work harder than I have to. But there's a basic element of the job of like, we're going to talk to people. You're there because they need help. So at least spend. a little bit. So I used to do, um, um, individual daily assessments, you know, not like full on

workups, but yeah, but how are you doing today? Where are you at in the process? And sometimes I only get see people one or two times before they moved on or moved to a different part of the hospital or, you know, they were discharged, et cetera, um, or I worked on a different unit and didn't, didn't see him again. But you got to invest that and I didn't see. I was always encouraging people to try and do a little bit more like connect with these folks. Like, uh, at least ask them, how you doing? Where are you out in the process and get up get some feedback you know what's going on in your life that that brought you here and that that also ties into the idea of the behavioral changes should come first it's like whatever you doing it wasn't working because it led you to where you're

at right now so maybe we look at what you were doing and uh what do you think can you do something different is that going to help do you need to get out of the house more um some some people think um well some people think it only works one way or the other that either isolation leads leads to depression or isolation is a symptom of depression it's actually both it's a circle Yeah, I could see. Downward spiral feedback loop. But then again, you get people like me, and I had to respect this as well. There were some people who would do the clinical diagnostics on my team, on the unit that day,

where they would go, you know, patient-isolative, you know, that kind of thing. I'm like, well, sometimes you just don't want to be around people. And sometimes you're like me, and I'm a damn hermit. I see nobody. I would never leave this room or my backyard ever again and deal with another human being in public if I could avoid it. It's just stressful. It's I just don't want to do it.

I don't want to, I don't want to wait in traffic behind people at red light. I don't want to stand in line at the grocery store. I don't, I don't want to do any of these things. I don't go to concerts. Too damn many people pressed around. I'm like,

I got YouTube. I'll listen to music at home. None of this is. And then there's other people where, um, they love it. If they don't get daily interaction with at least one other person, they suffer.

So you got to, you also got to know where people are coming from. What's normal for you? There isn't, there's a normal is, but, but also what, it's baseline for that person individually.

You got to know that too. So, but then there's, there's, uh, nope, gone gone. Wow. Chase that thought is, okay. Well, we'll forget about that. I'll stop. I'll talk too much. We get back to, uh, uh, if you have any comment on all that.

No, I don't. No, it might be too much. No, it might be too much. No. Thank you. Well, I just, I just ramble. I just follow my thoughts and open my mouth and, uh, I hope somebody finds it entertaining. Oh, actually what I was going to say when I was in the cycle.

Lord, if someone, if even just one person would have asked me how I was doing, that would have like meant so much. So like just that one simple thing because I felt like nobody cared. And it was. Yeah. Again, I think that experience was like equally as traumatic as trying to end my own life. Yeah. A lot of people get jaded and burnt out and they're compassion. They get compassion fatigue where it's just like.

Yeah, I could see that though. Yeah. I think a part of it is 12 hour shifts. Now, I get why they do it. They say there's less medical error if there's less handoffs in care. I get that. And that's technically true. But I think there's more burnout fatigue, lack of effort involved in 12-hour shifts.

Because the people who are performing that, the nurses, doctors, et cetera, they have to, you know, in effect, gird their loins for the long haul for the slog for the 12-hour shift. And not only that, back-to-back-to-back, 12-hour shifts, because you're trying to do three in a week. so you have four days off. They're trying to minx the system. I had, I think the best experience with staff and patients and engagement and whatnot at a hospital where we did eight hour shifts. So there was one extra handoff per day and things got, the ball got dropped sometimes. It happens.

You know, we're only human. But people only had to hang in there for an eight hour shift. They had more of themselves to give. because they were going to have more time off before they had to come back and give more. I just think that's a bad model. I would almost outlaw it by, you know, by decree or whatever. But people have different opinions. But that was my experience.

Yeah. But it's funny, though, because some occupations like pilots, like, it's illegal for them to have 12-hour shifts. Oh, yeah. It's not an unknown phenomenon that you get fatigued. That's why we don't have 24-hour shifts for, almost anything ever, anywhere, because you're not supposed to, you can't focus for that long and do a good job. Well, so I met when I lived in Chicago, I met this anesthesiologist. They had to have one 24-hour shift a week.

Wow. And that's like such a like precise job. Can you imagine being on your 23rd hour? I don't want to be the guy on the table during his 23rd hour ever. No one should ever be. That's amazing. Hopefully they're just doing paperwork or something at that point. Hopefully most of it is like they're not actively doing the job for 24 hours straight.

There's like on calls and I didn't really ask him. Yeah. I also don't like the idea of sleeper positions where it's like you could, you know, go to bed at 10 o'clock and get woken up two hours later at midnight because you got to come in to do your job. I'm like, that's not enough sleep. That's not healthy for anyone. Why not just have a completely separate night guy that does that? Right.

It's not even healthy to like drive to your job at that point. No, if you make it one piece and don't kill anyone on your way, you might kill the patient. on the table because you're sleep deprived. It's not good. Not good at all. Yeah. Um, well, I just realized we've been talking for about an hour. Do you want to get to the dream thing? We'll do that. I would love that. Yeah. Okay. Otherwise, we just keep going. We could probably talk all day. Probably. Um, let me write. Oh, excuse me. I'm going to do the timestamp here. I never used to write these down. And, and then I realized I probably should because I did I have to go look through the whole episode to try. Oh, where was that? I don't remember. Um, okay, as per my usual

I'm going to shut up and listen. Our friend Angie's going to tell us all about her dream and then we're going to figure it out together. So I'm ready when you are. Benjamin the Dream Wizard wants to help you hears the veil of night and shine the light of understanding upon the mystery of dreams. Every episode of his dreamscapes program

features real dreamers gifted with rare insight into their nocturnal visions. New Dreamscapes episodes appear every week on YouTube, Rumble, Odyssey, and other video hosting platforms, as well as free audiobooks exploring the psychological principles which inform our dream experience and much, much more. To join the Wizard as a guest, reach out across more than a dozen social media platforms and through the contact page at Benjamin the Dreamwizard.com, where you will also find the wizard's growing catalog of historical dream literature available on Amazon, documenting the wisdom

and wonder of exploration into the world of dreams over the past 2,000 years. That's Benjamin the Dream Wizard on YouTube and at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com. Okay, so it's really segmented. Do you want me to go one segment at a time or just go to the whole thing? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So the first segment is I'm with a friend from high school and I graduated in 98. So I have like not even talked to this person since then.

But she was in my dream. Her name is Nikki. And we were in my childhood neighborhood. But there's one street that in real life would normally lead to another neighborhood. It actually led to this nature preserve. And this nature preserve is actually a recurring location in my dreams. So when we arrived at this location, I was like all excited because I was like, oh, we can go hiking, we can ride bikes because these are things that I have done at this location before in my dream. But then somehow we got separated and I started walking through this forest and there was like this river.

And it was just like so peaceful that I didn't even care that I had lost my friend. I was just kind of like strolling down, like enjoying the trees, enjoying the river. And then I like ended up in this museum area and got lost. And that's kind of where the dream ended, that segment of the dream. One sec here. Okay. And one thing I'm going to do is start a new page here. We're at the bottom.

That's all by notes. Actually hang on to these. I have a whole folder full of every single note. ever taken a baby i'll do a book one day on that i don't really sure what to do the what's the what's the theme how do i do that i don't know um okay part two part two so i'm driving in a parking lot and i'm borrowing someone else's car so it's not my car and i'm backing out of a parking spot and the brakes are not working so but like i'm slowing down enough that I'm not going to hit anything, but then it's scary because I'm like using this

car because I was actually like prepping to go on a road trip. Like and so like my next leg is like a whole hour. So I'm like, okay, if the brakes don't work, is this car even safe? And so I put it in drive and I test the brakes again and I have to like push my foot down as hard as possible. And the car will slow down a little bit, but it doesn't totally stop. But I, I'm so anxious to get to, to my next location that I decide to drive anyway, even with these faulty brakes. Okay, catching up here. Which I could write faster. I need to learn shorthand.

Yeah. A little squiggly curly cues. I, I, I would actually probably be beneficial. Like, none of these are like super detailed enough. Right. I also, I try to write down as much, um, of your specific verbiage as I can, even though I'm trying to do shorthand as well. So it's one of those things of like, if you say I was scared, I don't write fearful.

I write scared. That word probably means something specific to you in this context. At least that's how you chose to describe the feeling you were experiencing. So that's why I get these things. Okay. And, okay, is there a part three? Yes, there is a part three. So I'm, so as we discussed before, my dad has passed,

but I have this recurring dream that he's, like he's alive, but it's like, I'm the only one who knows. Me and my mom are the only one who knows. And I think it's weird because it's like he's supposed to be dead, but he's there. But then my mom pretends that everything's okay. So we're in this house, and I think it's supposed to be my childhood house, but it looks nothing like my childhood house. Like there's this ornate fireplace with like this mantle,

and there's like pictures on the mantle. So it's like supposed to look all homey, but it just feels really odd and uncomfortable. And my dad is there. And again, I, like, think it's all weird. And but my mom is just pretending that everything is okay. And I'm just kind of, I feel like I'm in my own world. Like, I'm there with my parents, but I'm just like, what is going on?

Like, why is she pretending everything's okay? And I don't feel comfortable saying anything to my dad because I feel bad because he's actually supposed to be dead. And it's just like this weird dynamic because the three of us are there. but I feel like I'm lonely and by myself. Catch it up again. That's okay. We are still live.

Anyone listening on audio only? Okay. This is the person I talked to last week had five segments. Yeah, I have five because there's two more. There you go. That's perfectly fine. I'm actually getting, I don't think we'll be at it for four and a half hours. So I don't know.

That depends. Actually, the only reason I did that was the dreamer I had on had more questions. I said, what do you think? You want to keep looking at this? Yeah, what about this? So we just, and I'm not complaining. I'm like, oh, it dragged on. I'm like, that's what I do.

So I'm in for the long haul. I clear the day. If it gets to about 3.30, I'm going to have to go. That's not that's three hours from now, but I don't think we're going to get there. Okay, part four, part four. Part four is I had a new job working on a skyscraper. And I get there and I don't really know what's going on. I go in this room and the job is actually to be like on the outside and the scaffolding like way up high.

And I'm really scared, but I don't really want to admit to anybody that I am. So I just like pretend that I know what I'm doing and I, you know, gather. They like give me some supplies or whatever and I just go out on the scaffolding on the outside of the skyscraper. And there's like, I don't know how to describe it. there's like things covering the window. And basically my job is to take off those things. Or like we're doing something with those coverings. And I'm on the scaffolding, like way up in the air,

and I'm terrified to be up that high. And I look at the skyscraper and like only a fraction is complete. And I'm looking at the entirety of the skyscraper thinking like, oh my God, I'm so scared and there's so much more work to do. and I'm just like completely overwhelmed by the thought of it. Okay. Caught up faster that time. Next page.

Okay. I'm not even getting this. Oh, you can't really see it. It's full. That's okay. That's okay. And this was, well,

this would be number five. Here we go. Yes. So the last segment is I'm at my childhood home. And it's actually my childhood home. And our driveway in that home was on a hill. And I remember my friends when they would come to pick me up, they wouldn't,

or a lot of people, wouldn't even drive up our driveway because it was such a pain in the ass. So anyway, I let in the dream, I let my sister borrow my car. And she is trying to back it out of the driveway. And because it's on a hill or whatever, she backs out and like crashes my car and ends up totaling it. And her response is basically like she doesn't really care. And like, I'm all upset because I'm like, this is my car.

Now I don't have a car and I'm like mad at my sister. Okay. All right. Fantastic. Look at that. I used to do, I used to do a lot of things. But in relation to this show specifically, I used to do clips, 20 or 30 minute clips of like the thing. And I used to do what I called, I don't remember what I used to call it.

But it was, it was a teaser trailer kind of where I just had clip this. section of people describing their dreams and then you know I think I need to reset the white balance I'm all washed out here is that better or worse I don't know fuck it it didn't work I'm not gonna I'm not gonna obsess over it um and I was like this would make an interesting thing's like okay what is he going to do with this and I so I would release that like two days before the thing came out so but nobody watched nobody watched the clips I'm like oh fuck it I'll just do the show let's let's stream let's simplify let's keep this keep this simple um I was just thinking about that I'll make an interesting little what if type of thing in the very beginning.

Maybe that's the thing I could do at the beginning. Instead of putting like a pre-recording chat, I could do the dream thing and then get into the episode. I don't know. I don't know. Oh, yeah. It would be as interesting to people. Maybe. Okay.

So, focus, focus, Ben. My Strauss 17. Actually, that's a, I've got a, I don't think I have ADHD. I thought I did once upon a time, but it's more of this, um, autisticly legit, uh, internal preoccupation type of thing where I have so many thoughts when people are talking and then some of them are related to what I'm doing and some of them are like, not at all.

I'm like, where did that come from? Why? Because I think there's a connection. Why do I have my own associations in my head? I'm fascinated by that. No, I have an overactive brain too. And like, I think that's why I talk fast and,

but yeah, I think sometimes like, Well, it goes back to the diagnosis. Like what, like what is ADHD anymore really? It's been overdiagnosed along with autism as well. There's like certain things that actually fit and something's a don't. Sometimes there's just normal people being weird because people are weird. Exactly.

That's, you know, that's okay. Okay, back to your thing. So if we start with number one, we're going to try and tell a story. number one this is very common where not everybody most people one of these sections will make it out into their consciousness so it's not as typical that someone has five discrete dreams in one night or at least sections but but it is common that say one dreaming experience will have maybe scene changes where it's almost like fade to black next scene of a movie that's actually actually very, very common. Yeah, that's very common of my dreams. Yeah. Now, did you have the experience that this was all kind of one chunk or separate dreams in the same night? Yeah, usually when I wake up, I like I remember it as one chunk and it's just like it's almost like watching back to back TV shows. Yeah, gotcha. And that's what I was thinking too. So it's a different phenomenon from I had a dream. I

woke up and went to the bathroom and then I had a second dream after I went back to sleep. Now, very often it will and very often it won't, but those dreams will be connected by, like, since I was having those thoughts, I went back into it sort of or I had something related to it that carried on. But what, what, what am I trying to explain? My philosophy, my theory, and I, I don't know of anyone else who says this, but it's, so that's why I say it's my theory. Did I invent it?

Hell, fine. I probably need to read more books, but the way I look at it, my operant, operant theoretical perspective is that, you know, the lungs breathe, the heart beats, and the brain thinks. And it does that whether we're conscious or not. That's the good news is you don't have to manually beat your heart and your lungs, nor do you have to manually create thoughts. It's actually, in some ways, impossible to do. We don't know what creativity is or where it comes from. What inspires someone to, to, what gave, you know, Archimedes the, the inspiration to Yurika. Well, he saw something, but what made the connection in his head, the water displacement?

Why, why did he think of it? And no one else before him who had ever gotten into a bathtub had that same thought. We don't know. Why him? Yeah. So anyway, long story short on that. What I think makes dream interpretation or possible is the idea that we're just a exploring thoughts.

And they're the same thoughts you have when you're awake. They're just happening when you're asleep, which means there's less conscious control over changing your thoughts. Like if I'm doing something, it's time to stop and do something else. I can shift gears. Now, it's not easy for me, but I can.

And most people can do it easier than I can. But, you know, I'm working on one project. I'm out of time. Now I'm driving my car. Well, I'm not driving my car while I'm working on the project.

And I'm not working on the project while I'm driving my car. We shift gears. But we, continue to think about the project while we're driving the car. So, uh, so what happens in dreams is, is a connected stream of consciousness of thoughts that kind of one to the next. And, uh, when you have a discrete dream section, there's something that occurred during that or some kind of resolution or inspiration of the next connected sign of or, um, uh, um, uh, uh, a, um, uh, uh, connected, um, chunk, uh, in this, in a series.

of chunks that that kind of are like working your way through the steps of a process. And it happens when we're awake if we if we pay attention to it as well. It's like we're thinking about one thing. I got to go to the store. Oh, yeah, but I need to check my tire pressure. It looked a little low. And where did I put that thing? Did I put it in the, you know, the little tire checker air gauge thing?

And so these connected thoughts are and all of it is in service of why got to get to the store. But then you're like, do I, do I, even need to go to the store today. Maybe I'll go tomorrow. And then so we work through these, long story short, that's, that's what we're going to try and do,

um, is connect these things together. What are they? So all of us, that's like five minutes of telling you what we're going to do instead of just doing. Sorry. I like to,

I like to explain things, especially today. I think I'm waking up. Finally got enough caffeine in me. Um, okay. Section, section one.

You're with a friend from high school. And, and by the way, uh, I think we're, close to the same age. I graduated like early mid-90s and then went to college. Okay. 98, 2000. But anyway, uh, just apropos nothing.

Hello, hello fellow Jen Exer. Right. Um, you're with a friend from high school. And this was a person you haven't seen in, we would say roughly 30 years, almost. Yeah, like maybe I saw her 99. We were both in college, but that would have been the latest. It's a good, good chunk of time. So why? this person specifically came back into your dream. What do they represent? And we're going to, we'll get to that. You're in your childhood neighborhood.

There's a nature preserve. You're excited to go. You get separated from the friend. And there's a forest and a river. It's peaceful. And then it ends in a museum. So, okay. So there is a, I guess a motif of reflecting on the past at the very least.

you're setting this stage in your mind of remember when or or something about your current circumstances bears some reflection upon that time um you mentioned biking and hiking what what what was the nature of your relationship with this friend like what did you do together as friends or what was her personality like if you have any thoughts that come to mind Well, she was, she was actually a year older than me. I liked hanging out with her because, I mean, a year is actually an emotional maturity in high school is actually a lot. Yeah. So I enjoyed the friendship because I felt like I was learning from her so that I knew what to expect later in life.

So, for example, we were even friends when I was a senior and she had moved on to college. Like, we still stayed in touch. and I remember visiting her in school because I just liked having the outlet to, it was almost like I could see my future through her. And I felt like I was learning through her. And it was actually really hard my senior year because we were such good friends.

It was actually a loss for me. And also, because I had invested so much time in her, I didn't feel like I had any good friends in my own grade. And as a senior, that's a problem, right? So I had to like, in the beginning of my senior year, I had to almost like rush to form deeper friendships with the loose friends that I already had because I didn't feel like I had as money, solid friendships

in my own grave. So that kind of left me, yeah, with a feeling of loss in the beginning of my senior year because I just felt alone. For sure. And then you've got the setting that you, it's funny. need to say chose to show yourself, but in a way it is. It's like it's, it also means something in

terms of you, I like to do counterfactuals. You know, you didn't set it in today, modern times. You took yourself back to the past and set it in your childhood neighborhood versus you could have said it in the future on Jupiter. Yeah. You could have said it in present day, but in, you know, Algeria, who knows, just anywhere, anywhere that's different. But it was, but it was, was this specific place in time. So there's definitely a looking back to the past for answers or insight type of thing going on here. Um, or, or something you're going through currently that, that sparked that reflection. It's like, um, I think we got some good stuff already so far. So does it mean anything that that, that nature preserve? Like, that's a recurring location in my

dreams. Does that mean anything? I, I think it certainly does. Uh, definitely anything that is a recurring theme in dreams is, uh, um, what, what I say is that we tend to crystallize certain iconic representations. And when they do come back in a recurring format, it's, there's some, there's definitely some meaning we've invested into that, uh, okay, concept that, that, um, and, and what, uh, what happens with, uh, people who bring to me, say, a series of recurring dreams is that one of, one of two things, well, one of three things. If we completely fail and I give them nothing, nothing, nothing comes from nothing. What are you going to do? Um, if I give them something useful, where they have some useful insight during the experience, the dream, the nature of the

dreams will change. They'll be able to move on to a different area of the recurring dream or the nature of the recurrence changes. It's not the same anymore. Or they stop altogether because the message is received. It's no longer a mystery. It's been solved. So there's no need for it anymore. Um, so yeah, probably figuring out what the nature preserve is, uh, for you might change the nature of your interaction with that in your dreams or might cause it to stop entirely because you don't need it anymore. We'll see. Um, but you went with this friend to the nature preserve. Yes. So we arrived together. As in separately arrived at the same place together or travel together? No, I think we, we travel together. Okay. Okay. So in a way,

this friend brought you to the nature preserve. There's, and what I mean by that is that she didn't physically pick you up and carry you. She didn't drive you. But the purpose of putting yourself in this frame of mind and then having her be the one with you as you go there means something about that time period in your life, the nature of your relationship with her and how that brings you to whatever this nature preserve is for you. Yeah. So did your, where you grew up as a kid, have a nature preserve at the end of the street?

I mean, like literally physically? So as I was talking, it reminded me when, because my neighborhood was brand new when my parents bought our house. So it wasn't finished being expanded. So initially, because we lived on a cul-de-sac and then, but the mainstream, which our called a sack branched off of it actually like very shortly after our street it ended and it was a bunch of it was a wooded area but then that eventually was torn down and houses were built so it actually might represent that for sure and i forgot all about that until we just started talking that's exactly how this works yeah yeah i don't um i don't have any magic powers we just talk and that shit happens

This is weird. Now, now metaphysically, I think that's magic. I think that's what we're doing here is legit. Yeah. Now, it also reminded me when I was five years old where I lived, that's exactly at the end of the street. A, uh, it, uh, just the barrier, dead end with a big sign. And beyond it, farmland, an old broken down farm, a row of trees. Uh, that's exactly what I did when I was a kid.

I ran out to, uh, go, go, go dirt bike in the field and, and, and, uh, run around and get into trouble and try not to get tetanus from the barn. get the old equipment in there. Yeah, so there was a very real exploration of wild nature and unlimited possibility type of thing happening there, especially for someone who's young where, you know, it's like we have the very well constructed, very sanitized suburban landscape in a way. It's not. And then by contrast, the wide open wild, unconstructed, even something. in some ways untouched by human hands like the raw potential of nature is out there um i'll stop right there you're nodding a little bit would you phrase it differently or uh no like that

makes perfect sense because i remember my sister and i and other kids in the neighborhood we loved going in the woods to explore like that was our favorite thing to do gotcha we're on to something here wow i just wrote down words it's woods what am i doing woods Oh my goodness. And you were excited to go, excited to explore. So it was not a fearful, trepidacious, hesitant. It was not a determined, I have to go. Something must be done.

It's like, I want this. I want to go to the place of where the love of exploration is expressed. Yeah, and that's probably why it seemed familiar to me and that why it's a recurring place. because I think it represents this woods for my childhood. Oh, I want to hear from you if you have another dream about the nature preserve tonight. And it's, uh, suddenly it's your, it's your, it's at the end of your street like it, like it was before. And you have more memories come up. That would be fascinating. Um, and then you got, and this is the reason why I said, um, it is as if you've chosen this person to travel with you to take you there because once you're there,

she's not necessary anymore you get separated now it wasn't a fearful separation of oh my god suddenly she's gone it was more of a you just noted her absence or or am i wrong or how would you describe no that's a good way to describe it and i guess it told you right on the same i guess it's the same concept of when she graduated and went to college it's like yeah okay i knew that was going to happen And so even though it was sad, it was just like, I knew this was going to happen. And now I have to deal with it. So it was the same kind of evolution in my dream where it's like I lost her, but I was accepting of it. You're ticking yourself in this dream, a little bit of walked down memory lane.

And this is all prologue in some ways. This is like before we get into the real action of the dream, what is going on here? Why this? So you've set yourself up to say, okay, remember where you came from. Remember your experiences and how they felt and the general progression of things. Oh, she's sneezing snot. Can you not do that all right on the paper? Dasty.

She's got a little love. It's like cats always know where to not be. I know. Can you just quit sneezing on that? Now she gets to sneeze on the keyboard. Oh, no. She's got a little, I think, a seasonal allergy type of thing. She's always, she'll go, she'll have, there's apropo and nothing, just cat stories.

She will have a sneezing fit where for like 15, 20 seconds. And I'm like, are you going to live? I don't even know. Okay, you can sit. No, you can't sit on those papers either. Come my girl. This one's named baby. Then we got one we call Wookiee, your daughter.

And then the black one is a boba. Like Bobgum, shrimp company, Bobo. He had a little cut on his lip because he was too excited when we found him as a kid and he was starving. So he was too excited to eat a torn open bag of tuna. You know, we get the plastic bags. He just, he stuck his head right in there, but got his lip caught it and cut his lip open on the edge of the plastic and it had a little flap a chunk. Oh, we were terrified. He's like,

oh, was he going to lose his lip? But what would cat look like with no lips? It's crazy. Apropos of nothing. I'm all over the place here today. Go away. Go away. Okay. Maybe if I pick up the paper, she can't lay, she can't lay on them. Um, okay. Uh, and separated, but the nature of the separation was you, it felt like it was not unanticipated. Like you knew it was coming. When it finally happened, you're like, oh, yeah, this is, that's just, that's just, how it goes. Yeah. But very soon, you felt a deep sense of peace, even though you were alone and your friend had gone

away. You were, uh, or, I don't. Maybe I'm throwing that in there. Like, I'm exaggerating. You said it was so peaceful. Um, now, how would you characterize that? Was it a soothing, soothing peacefulness as in, um, I'm, I'm no longer. Distressed by being alone or, or being separated from my friend because the woods are so

enjoyable to be in. How would you characterize it? I think it was more as just an escape from life. Like, oh, the woods and this river are so peaceful. Because I think I remember having the thought of like, I'm just going to take a long walk while I'm here. Because I wanted to enjoy it for as long as I could. Okay. So it was more like the escapism aspect, I would say.

You cannot read my papers. I love you, baby girl. You've got to move. move but then you found a museum like a physical building or like the forest

opened up and suddenly there were paintings on the trees and then there were walls and how would do you know well by museum it was more like a enclosed and manufactured nature preserve

so so not really a museum one of those things called like uh you know like botanical gardens that are like enclosed and manmade. I don't know how to describe,

but it was like it had like a museum feel as opposed to like actually being in nature. Gotcha. Yeah. Yes. Yes. There is there is a big difference between this is, nature is wild. It is untouched by the hand of man, so to speak. But there she goes. Come on, come on.

How about, do you want to sit on my head? Let's sit on my head. There we go. Let's see if she does that. Nope. But then there is, yeah, no, you said that just right. Botanical Garden. There's a, just reminded me, I don't know if you're a sci-fi fan or not, but there's a,

the Dune series by Frank Herbert. They just did the movies, the Dennis Villeneuve with Timothy Chalameh. Some people liked it. Some people did. I like moody, slow, intense. I'm not familiar with it. Oh, yeah, the Dune, the two Dune movies. I check them out.

There's people who hate them. Okay. But I love them. Long story short, in the book series, several thousand years down the road after the main story, there are now what are called museum fremen. Now, the fremen were the original warriors of the wasteland that helped Paul Atrades overthrow the Harkonen and become emperor of the universe, et cetera, et cetera. Well, thousands of years after him, the only remnant of that warrior culture of hard-bitten,

tough as nails people that lived in the desert on a drop of water a day. The only people left are museum fremen, people who put on the costume and tell the stories. The culture itself is dead. And only the stories remain and the ability to put on a show of what it once was. So there's, okay, so all of that, all of that to say, this trip down memory lane, you've arrived at what used to feel to you like the exciting possibility of an unlimited wild, untained, untapped potential,

you realize it's now encapsulated as a display as a botanical garden type of thing. Yeah. Are you feeling something in connection with that? I mean, is that... Well, honestly, like, what I'm feeling is, like, when you're a child, you envision life a certain way.

and it's usually like, oh, I'm going to like do all these great things and you can, but there's actually like a lot of struggle associated with life. And I think it's just like the reality of adulting versus like the naiveness of being a child. And like actually, that's like simpler times, right? because I didn't have to worry about all this stuff that I was worrying about now. And I could have those dreams without the struggles. For example, when I was a little girl, I wanted to move to Hawaii. And now I'm here and it's great.

But as I mentioned before, there was a lot of struggle associated with that. That might come to it. I've had that's weird. A lot of your life is resonating with me just in exactly in that in that way as well, which is I, used to want to travel more. And I went through a period of my life where I was, you know, novelty seeking and like, well, let's get out and see what's out there. We can't sit at home all the time. That's changed a little bit with the internet. Now, if I'm curious, I look something,

watch a video. I'm like, yeah, in some locations, I recommend just Googling it because it's not even worth traveling. Oh, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Well, and I had an experience that kind of ruined it for me, too, which was, I got on a plane in Portland and we stopped off in Denver, of course, the hub, and you transferred to another plane. And we got off the plane. And we got off the plane. And as soon as we left the airport in Michigan, Michigan, 1,500 miles away, it looked like Portland area. It looked like there's some trees. There's a Taco Bell. There's a hotel.

Yeah. Like, this doesn't, I don't feel like I'm in a different city. I feel like I spent all that time to just stay where I was. And so long story short on this, too late for that. I lost a bit of the zeal for travel or to see new things because once I got there, I was like, this isn't. what I was hoping it might be. And now I'm just away from the comforts of home. And I would actually rather be at home.

Now I regret this. So this was an expensive waste of time. And so I just stopped going out to do things because I'm just like I never was, I just had to, it was a long, slow period of time really realizing I am a wizard. I'm a hermit. I need to stay home and just do my own thing.

She is now going to lay all over everything. I'm going to put my papers on you. We're going to flip this script. How about that? Huh? I'll rub your bed. Oh, she's going to bite me for real. Stop that.

But now she wants to play. Oh, God. This is, okay. So, all right. Now that's just a good analogy, though. I like that. Yeah. Which one?

I don't remember what I said. No, about traveling. Because it reminded me when I lived in Chicago, I went to Dubai, thinking I was going to go to this, like, magical place. It's all the same American stores, all the same American restaurants. Everyone speaks to English. I was like, it just felt. like home basically. Actually, and I went to this restaurant and it had, there was a local restaurant

where I live. There was a picture on the wall. This restaurant in Dubai had the exact same picture as this restaurant in Chicago. And that's when I kind of was like, why did I come here? Yeah. That is, there's, there's good and bad things in regards to that it's like cultural differences, create conflict, sure, but they also create differences. I mean, so if you want, the ability to go somewhere and see something different. You don't want it to be the same. The whole purpose of getting out of your bubble here is to go see something that's different. And then if you get there and it's not different.

And one of the things people say is, oh, you just went to the touristy areas. You didn't go off the beaten track. And I'm like, in some of these places, you don't want to go off the beaten track. Because maybe the locals out in the sticks don't like Americans very much. And you might never be heard from again. So you've got to be very careful. Yeah. And I actually did go off the beaten path and I didn't feel safe because I was by myself. And like this guy pulls up.

Everyone in Dubai has money. So this guy in this like million dollar car pulls up. He wasn't speaking English, but I could tell he wanted me to get in his car. Yeah. I was like, hell no. This is not happening. Nope. Yeah.

And then depending on which country you're going to be varying degrees of illegal to defend yourself. Like if you've got spare mace or, you know, a little pocket mace or a stun gun. Like you go to England per se. They will lock you up. You can't just use a weapon to tase rapists. what's wrong with you? And that makes it feel even more unsafe because you don't know

how to mind your peas and cues in a foreign country. For sure. So there's a, I mean, and that can be what makes it exciting. Some people are like, I want to feel like I'm in danger. My life has been too safe up till now.

God bless you. I hope you live. Good luck. I'm not doing that. Okay, that's number one. End of the dream. Number two. So, okay,

so hard transition point, fade to black. And that's why I used to put, I used to put little deltas, delta means change, transition, whatever, transformation. But now I actually number them if people say they're different. So something about starting from that point,

having the fullness or completion of a particular way of conceiving this idea, having it end on realizing that where you're at now is a more manufactured, curated, imitation of the original feeling, that, bam, led you into the next section of the dream

where you're in a parking lot in a borrowed car, backing out of a spot, and the brakes aren't working. So the first thing that came to my mind, I wrote it down over here is boogeyman slash molasses. And this is a typical dream

that people will often report. I was running from something that intended to hurt me, but my legs had no strong. strength. And I actually, that, okay, I don't remember my dreams. Five in my entire lifetime I could tell you about. And a dream, actually, an element of a dream just came back to me. Not much. Just the experience of I'm running up a small hill. And we're talking about maybe, um, to reach the peak would be 15, 20 feet ahead of me. And it's a very gradual slope, but I can't see what's beyond it. And I don't

know what's behind me, but my legs have no power. I cannot make forward progress up this very, very not steep at all hill and that's it that's all that's that's my typical dream experience is like if anything sticks with me in the morning it's like i was running up a hill and i couldn't run not very interesting but that is very uh uh what it's categorized for centuries now as a typical dream attempting to escape from danger and the inability to do so now you weren't exactly running from danger no but my next leg because i was trying to get home And that's why I borrowed the car. So there was like an eagerness to get home, though.

So that's why I was like, okay, the brakes aren't working very well, but I'm going to take this car anyway. And that's an interesting continuation from you were at your childhood home. Yeah. And experiencing a curated wilderness, the carefully managed potential of an imitation of a wild area and the excitement of exploration. and maybe just phrasing it that way my purpose the the why was I driving the car why was I backing out of the parking space was to get home so we could speculate um and hold it loosely and tell me if normally when I talk to people I don't always say this but I try to uh I just ramble until you have some inspired thought uh number one but number two never hesitate to tell me I'm wrong if if

if ideally I say something in just the right way and you get a zing it's like head to gut and you go wait a minute and bam an idea comes out of that and you're like just like you were saying actually this reminds me of my child at home I hadn't put that together before we're like that's what we're doing baby that's what I'm talking about I try not to get too excited about it um but that's that's what I'm trying to do so and never hesitate to tell me I'm wrong to go okay no I don't that I don't feel that you know and that's perfectly fine so um this cat this cat this we're gonna have a three hour episode because you won't I feel like it's a good omen though right maybe it is she's been so love you she is she's a good girl um so okay so what was I saying uh so the next thought that would possibly come out of that was how do I go back how do I recapture that feeling and what you're in is a vehicle a dysfunctional vehicle where the brakes don't work and that puts you and others at risk and you're like you're like you're like you're in a vehicle a dysfunctional vehicle where the brakes don't work and that puts you're like you like you're Your first thought wasn't, oh, my God, I'm going to crash. It's, I'm going to hit someone else's car. I'm going to do damage to other people. Oh, interesting. Yeah, because that was my specific thought. Because the first thing I did was back out.

And I was like, oh, I don't want to hit these cars behind me. And yeah, that was actually kind of my overarching thought. It wasn't even about my own safety. Because obviously, if I can't stop and I get in a wreck, my safety is in danger as well. But that didn't even cross my mind. Yeah, yeah. So, and also the idea that it's a borrowed car. It's like, this is not my car.

Not only am I in a, I'm in a dysfunctional vehicle that's not even my own. And that's, what is it? If we were to look at it like, um, I gave you life advice that was meant for me, but not suited for you. If you tried to follow that path, you were borrowing my vehicle for travel to a different mental or physical destination and it's dysfunctional. It doesn't even meet your needs. So it's like I'm giving you bad advice based on my experience that doesn't work for you at all.

It actually might put you in others in danger. Okay. So I think I just made the connection of what this is all about. Oh. Oh. So my family of origin and I'm not criticizing my parents or anyone, but it was dysfunctional. And but I thought that's how that was the rules of life. It was normal to you.

Yeah. I carried that with me because I'm 45 now. So up until I was like 40, I thought that's just how you lived life. And it wasn't until I hired a coach and actually started like learning my own rules of life and what is functional for me that I started living in a different way, which is completely different than how I was taught. So I think it's just like the symbolism of staying in the old baggage of what's not working for me. Absolutely. Oh, I'm so glad. Well, now.

Especially because it's someone else's car. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It's someone else's life advice or example that was. Yeah. And you've probably had experiences where you attempted to put bad advice into practice and it ended up hurting someone else maybe or unintentionally. Like you were trying to do the right thing, but it. Yeah, I can't think of a specific example, but that's basically how I lived in my life, most of my adult life.

I took other people's advice because I didn't trust myself. I didn't think I knew what I was doing and I didn't. Oh, yeah. But I took other people's advice because I thought they knew better than me. Yeah. And so you, rather than, say, getting out of the car, you're like, the, the destination I need to reach is so important, perhaps, that I'm going to risk using this. Or, what is it? It's not exactly that.

It's more like, this is the only mode of transportation I've got or, or analyzing that as a concept. Yeah, like, it was almost like I was desperate for that mode of transportation, but are there other options available? I don't think I even looked into that. certainly in the dream you didn't conceptualize it that way. You're like, imagine this is what I've got to work with. And I have to make the best of it. And so what you did is you went an additional step. And you went slow.

You tried to modify how you implement the bad advice. Like maybe that will maybe. Maybe I'm doing it wrong. And even that you managed to get back out of the spot. And if I just take my foot off the gas, maybe the brakes don't work, but it comes to a stop eventually. How about driving forward? Well, if I slam really hard, it'll slow down a little bit.

that's what made me think of the boogeyman dream of like inability to escape from something and also inability to stop forward progress if you think you're heading in the wrong direction if you commit to a path at speed on the freeway jamming on the brakes and you slow down really slowly automatic car wreck so there's a lot of great analogies for vehicles and transportation um but you also thought i'm late to an appointment and you just decided to go anyway like i have to do this it was something important Do you remember what the appointment was? So that's just it. Did I say that I was like to an appointment?

Because I don't. That's what I wrote down. Maybe I've said it wrong. Well, I think there was an urgency, but it was like a self-imposed urgency. Because I don't think I really needed to like be home at a certain time. But just because my desire to arrive at the destination was so great, it had that urgency behind it. Absolutely. Yeah.

So there's, I mean, if we look at it like that, it's. like in life you can stand still for a while but not permanently i mean at some point you got to make some forward progress in some direction um it's almost like i'm having all kinds of thoughts today i wish i thought of this on my own but it's you know i had to understand it somewhere it's like why did um what's his name alice in wonderland the dude that wrote that louis carroll why did he put certain concepts into the mouth of the red queen and the the white queen on the chestboard what are these analogies for and like in the um in the book the red queen says to you know in uh alice who always are my ways and she uh she was the in charge of growing the roses the right colors uh and she

represents nature red and tooth and claw and uh she will off with your head at a whim you just like nature and the specific phrase i was thinking of is that uh you know in oh yeah in in the kingdom of the red queen you have to run as fast as you can just to stay in the same place. If you stop running, you fall behind. And running faster than you can is impossible. So it's like it's, but you have to do it anyway. You have to make forward progress and so anyway, that just came to mind. Apropos of nothing.

I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. She's got a decoy paper. She's sitting on it. That's what finally worked. I got to remember to do that. I got papers all over the place. Yeah, it's decoy.

I used to put boxes on the desk and then put a towel in the box and they, laid on it for a minute and then they discovered they like my mouse pad better or my keyboard they want to lay on the keyboard this is not this is not good chats i call it value added content okay that is amazing that you just thought of dysfunctional patterns from family because the next part of the dream where does it go your dad's life and you're back in your childhood home again yep talk about dysfunctional right that's not how death is supposed to function but you know in You're in your mind and in a metaphysical way, our parents never die. They are always in us because we are of them and the experience we had with them.

Even when they're physically no longer living, they are still an influence. They are still like the time you can't un what has been seen. Another internet mean, what has been seeing cannot be unseen. All you can do is try to forget about it, but the fact that it happened will all always be with you. Also, like this may, I don't think this is too woo-woo for you, but I don't know how woo-woo your listeners are. But like my dad is always with me spiritually.

So I always think of him. Like I don't think of him as being dead. Like he's just with me in a different way. Yeah. No, and I think that's very true. There's a, I tell people, and I believe it, angels and demons are more real than this physical reality we can touch. And people go, what are you talking about?

I'm like, it's concepts, ideas. Ideas can never die. And they pre-exist humans. Anything we've ever invented, I believe we only discovered. You can't invent something impossible. You can only discover what is possible. So we didn't invent the language of mathematics. We discovered math that, you know, you take one and one.

Now you got two. That's the way it is. There's no, there's no, human will imposition of human will that can change that fact of nature, that kind of thing. Anyway, so that's a yeah, I'm all over the place on concepts.

And that, I think that's what Plato was getting to with this world of forms. There is an essence of chairness that encompasses all chairs that have ever been invented. And that's how we define things like a tree. What is a tree? There's an essence of tree. It's got bark and branches and leaves. It's a thing. And

I'll stop there. You get it. No, but also maybe I played a role of, because this is a recurring thing of my dad being alive in my dreams, but like I probably play a role in that because I acknowledge him as like his spirit still being alive. Sure. Yeah. And even the people that we had a complicated history with, we very often still love them and

miss them and wish they were with us and value the good things they taught us, even if it was diamonds in a pile of shit, you know, that kind of a thing. Yeah. Yeah. And it's a very complicated thing too. because every child wants to love their parents, I think. You know, and we grow up and we either do because they were good generally and we can forgive their mistakes or we love them in spite of their mistakes, even if they were awful.

And that can be a hard thing of like, why do I love this person I hate because they hurt me? We've experienced love and hate at the same time. And I just tell people that's perfectly normal. That's exactly what you love them for the good things and their potential that they never quite reached, but also you can hate them for the bad things they did when they were being lazy or neglectful or abusive, perfectly fine. And it's the same person at the same time. And it's okay to feel conflicted emotions. I would say don't don't even try to resolve that. Just let it be what it is. Right. You know, because you can feel two different things at the same time.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. And you can say, you know, I love live music. I hate being in a crowd. And that's me. I love listening to live music. I don't want to be in a stadium full of people. That number one, I want to sit down. I'm an old-ass man with gray, gray in my beard. And the people in front of me, they want to stand up and jump around. And I can't see shit over their head. So there's just a lot of reasons, but what are you going to do? So I'm like, okay, I don't hate live music now.

I just don't go because I can't because the negatives are not worth it for me. Okay, long story, sure, enough about me. Talk about me a lot lately. So thanks for that. Thanks for listening. You're with your mom and she knows he's still alive. So they're, okay, if we take this out of the. the physical representation and say, you know, would you say that your mom is familiar with how you feel about your dad, the conflicted nature?

She knows he still lives for you long past his passing. No, she's not aware of that. But the thing that resonates with me with the dream is in real life, my mom sweeps things under the rug. So this is a representation of that. Like she knows this. She knows this is weird, but she's pretending everything's okay. She's going to pretend it's just fine. Yeah.

Definitely. And so it was, so it's your childhood home, but it's not. So later, I think you had another section where you were actually back at your childhood home.

And that's interesting. You, uh, from segment to segment, you jump in and out of this, uh, yeah. Oh,

interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But in this section,

it's not actually your childhood home. And there's this, you, you, you focused on a fireplace and a mantle. And that, and I think, that specifically was not in your childhood home.

No. But it's like what you would picture like the picture perfect home to be. So I think it's part of my mom's facade of like pretending everything's okay. And like we have this perfect home and perfect family. But it's like, no, this is not our home. This is like weird. What are we doing? That's why I wrote down weird and uncomfortable for sure.

Mom's pretending everything's okay. Yeah. And the feeling that ends that section is I feel like I'm all alone, the only one there. even though you're in the presence of other people. And that's how I felt when I was, like, for 18 years, basically, in my parents' house. Yeah. Well, you didn't really feel deeply connected to them. You didn't feel like they saw you or involved you.

No, it's like we were just like, the way I describe it to people, it felt like a business. Like we each had a role and we played our role. Yeah. And there was like no emotional connection at all. One of my favorite comedians, I can't remember his name, but he said, I said, so what am I doing with my life lately? Well, I started a horrible nonprofit with my wife where we just take care of these three strangers. Yeah.

It's like, yeah. So that's what it felt like. I worked my ass off and they just eat everything in the house. Yeah, no, that very much can be a thing. You know, if he was joking about it, he goes on to tell other stories about his kids and how much he loves them. And what another thing? The idea that his kids had personalities the moment they came out, like our one daughter, she's a take no shit. I'm going to get it done type of person.

She came out, came out of the womb like, let's go. I got places to be. And, you know, we went on vacation once. And she already had the car loaded. And she was waiting there for us. Like, it was taking so long. Let's get on with. We're heading.

And I think he ended it by saying the whole place, the whole house is terrified. Just because she's such an intense go get her personality. It doesn't want to wait for people to lollygag. Anyway, long as it's apropos, nothing. So, no, that's good. So you're reflecting on. And so the idea of, okay, borrowing this car and, okay, let's back it all up and try and tell the story. The idea of, I want to go back to, this is me trying to put words in your mouth.

So I want to go back to when I had this excitement of my childhood exploration and the untamed nature of nature. But I've realized that either what it was then or where I'm at now is this overly curated museum version of what I used to. find exciting and inspirational. How do I get where I'm going? Well, I have a borrowed car that doesn't work very well, but it's the only vehicle I've got. And where does that vehicle take you? It takes you back to your home, in a sense, takes you back to your home where you're thinking about the nature of the vehicle. Where did I get this car from? Oh, I got it from my dad who's dead, but my mom as well, she sweeps things under the rug. So that's, I got this, where I'm at right now is a product of of both of them and not being feeling like I'm not being seen or appreciated for for who I am.

And then bam, into the next section, you've got a new job. And a new job is new opportunities, a new, a new endeavor, a new search for meaning, perhaps. Like, what am I doing with my life? So, and this is where we get into. It's going to matter how you, how you interpret this. Like, you're either in a new job currently, really, in your real life and you're feeling unfulfilled or wondering if this is where I should be or you're looking at it's not about the job it's more about the idea of finding a purpose finding some somewhere to invest your energy that's going to give

a return on investment like like a paycheck um where do you think you're going with the yeah so that resonates a lot because I actually just quit corporate America two months ago to start my own business doing coaching and it's terrifying you were out on out on a scaffolding outside of skyscraper We're trying to build this thing, but trying to uncover the windows specifically so that people inside can see out or so that you can see in or what's. Oh, my God, that makes so much sense because my biggest fear with my new occupation is allowing myself to be seen. Oh, yeah. Is it okay to talk about it or we should keep that separate private? No, oh, no, I need to talk about this.

Okay, fair enough. And what I mean by talk about it is the nature of the work. I mean, what is it, what does it mean to be seen in the context of the work? Well, basically, because for my new coaching business, like, I'm selling myself and what I can do for other people. It's not just like when I worked in my corporate job, it's like I can like work on this spreadsheet or whatever. But it's like actually me and my services and what I can do for other people. So I have to really put myself out there. Yeah.

So there is. And this is what goes back to what I was saying. where there's people who will cause themselves physical pain to deal with emotional pain. And one of the deepest fears people have is like if you had to have a, if you had to live with hemorrhoids or do public speaking, a lot of people would go, give me that at, give me those ass blisters. Yeah, same. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.

And that's, that is terrifying. It is, it is, um, it feels physically threatening to be embarrassed in public. Well, and especially I like, I grew up in a very critical environment. So I just have this huge fear of being criticized. So every time I put myself out there, my first thought of, and I'm trying to get away from this, I try to avoid ways to get criticized. And I'm trying to just forget all that and put myself out there and not give a shit if I get criticized.

But it's really hard, especially with all the internet trolls and whatnot. I don't, I don't enjoy it either. I don't know anyone enjoys criticism. And people are mean and real person. That's one of the reasons why I left corporate America. Oh, for sure.

Yeah, no, but it's a normal natural thing. Like, I, but also I don't deal well with praise. It's horribly embarrassing. So I, I wish to neither be critiqued nor praised. How do you do that? I have no idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, complete isolation. Yeah.

Not so good for, I'm going to coach you from over here. Just don't look at me. And nobody will ever find out about me. No, for sure. Because you've got to self-promote. Yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And that's what, wow. I mean, that's really good.

We jumped right into that one. But also, you know, and what I wrote down was you felt scared, but you were trying to hide it. And of course, that's just another layer of embarrassment we try to avoid. Not only do I want to perform well in front of an audience, I don't want them to know how scared I am either. It's a, I think, did I mention stage fright before we get started or was that only I did. Yeah, yeah. No, you did. What I, what, I love talking to people.

and I love ideas because it radically changed my perspective. If you think of stage fright as abnormal, as a bad response as something you should not be feeling, it is terrifying. And then one day someone said to me, you know, you never get over stage fright. You just learn to like it. That's, you're right. That blew my mind and literally changed my physical experience. Like I would get up in front of a car. I tried to do karaoke when I was younger, you know, 21, 22, whatever, go to the bar.

And I would get up in front of people. and my body would shake my leg my i would have a leg one leg that wouldn't quit moving and i couldn't make a stop i had no physical control over that and the only thing that made any difference was that reframing was that idea of like this is not dangerous this is a rush this is the thrill this is the adrenaline you're looking for it this is well and we also were talking about tony robbins and i don't know if you've ever heard him say this but he tells a story about Bruce Springsteen, like before he would go on stage, he would, like, someone would ask him, like, how do you know you're ready to go on stage? And he would be like, yeah, like my heart's

beating really fast and I'm sweating and my hands are shaking. And that's when I know that I'm excited and ready to go on stage. And then Carly Simon had really bad stage fright. And like, someone asked her, like, well, how do you know you're ready to go on stage? And she would be like, well like what my heart's beating really fast and like I'm sweating really bad and my hands are shaking and that's what I know I'm having a panic attack and I can't go on stage because his point is the physical sensations of excitement and fear are exactly the same it's just the story of what you're telling yourself absolutely yeah and uh related to that is the idea of many many comedians will say you haven't become a real comedian until you've bombed

horribly in front of a crowd until you every joke the audience hated they hated you by the end of it they never wanted to see you again now you're a real comedian it's one of those things i know i have so much respect for comedians for that reason because they have to go through a lot of that to get to where we see them now oh yeah and there's no hiding it people genuinely laugh spontaneously immediately or they don't they either respond or you know it's a booze and Silence are the same to, you know, for, for a lot of reasons is that, uh, it's not the response you're looking for. It's not the, what you, you know, you're either inspiring the wrong emotion or no emotion

at all. Would some people say that's, it's even worse. I'd rather be booed off stage than a cricket. Right. Just a pin drop silence. Like, oh, that's, that, I can feel it. That's physically painful for me. Just thinking of that kind of silence.

That's why I really, I mean, I've done performing, uh, I can go to Renaissance fairs and play guitar and whatnot. And it was, that's one of the ways I got over it as well. I'm like, let me just go stand over here where no one's looking at me. And I'm going to sing and play guitar. And if people stop, that's great. And then eventually I would get, you know, a crowd. And I'm like, I'm going on a break, folks.

Thanks for coming. Just put the money in the hat. I would hit a limit. And there's exposure therapy, you know, like people afraid of an elevator. Well, first we're going to look at a picture of an elevator. Then we're going to go stand far away from an elevator in a building. Then we're going to go up and push the button, but we're not going to get in. And you get successive approximations, you know, that kind of thing.

A lot of story. I'm going all over the place today. Well, I think we get the skyscraper thing there. Only a fraction of it is complete. You're overwhelmed that there's so much work to do. So if we contextualize that as your life, it's like you're just beginning a new path and you're at least thinking of it as, you know, the overwhelming task of building an entire skyscraper. And what you're doing is barely the beginnings of the job,

which is uncovering the windows. Yeah, because with your own business, it's like I feel confident with the coaching aspect, but I also have to do the sales, the marketing, like all the things. That's what I don't do. I don't do any of that stuff. I'm trusting. You know what I think it is is I think I'm not ready maybe to really break out.

Like I need more training. Like I'm, because I just spent 20 years in psychology, but I'm new to wizardry. Yeah, I've only been doing. this for like five years and I've only done uh you know I've only got 17 books out there I've only got 200 coming up on 200 episodes I feel like I need at least a thousand then I'll be a real wizard then I'll be ready for oh really then I'll be ready for the world this and you know

the good news is is that if it takes another 20 years fuck it I'll be around and uh by then the gray will really if I'll really look like Gandalf and then people will I think most of my life uh well people say I'm a Pisces and people have told me oh you must be an old soul of like I feel old. I feel like I was born 60 years old and I'm just waiting to get there chronologically. I don't know. We'll see. So I feel the same way. Yeah. Yeah. And now I'm fortunate that I'm, financially stable enough that I, I don't have to market myself or die. That's, I'm very fortunate on that for what I'm doing. See, that's where I'm at, though, because I gave up my corporate income and I'm, you got to do it. Yeah. Yeah. It's good

motivation too. So you're having for sure reason to challenge old assumptions, faulty methods. and come up with better ways and overcome things. And the good news is, too, like, what is it? People say, oh, it's a goddamn growth experience. Well, they're not fun, but you're better off afterwards. And you'll have stories to tell your clients of like, let me tell you, I've had stage fright, and it's a pain in the ass, and here's what I did. It's like the recovering addicts make some of the best drug counselors.

I've been there, I've done that. I know when you're lying to me, because I did that too. And you get to establish that relationship to be able to tell someone, I love you, but you're bullshitting me. Come on, come on. That's a tough, that's a tough thing, too. You've got to have a lot of confidence in trusting your gut and reading the signs and and that you've established enough relationship with someone they can hear that.

Well, also, the street might relate to one of the earlier ones, because we were talking about how like the dysfunction, old dysfunctional patterns not working for me. Yeah. I just had an epiphany earlier this week. because I used to be the kind of person that doubted myself and didn't believe in myself. And so when an opportunity to grow came up, I would have all these excuses as to why I couldn't do it, why I shouldn't do it. But now I've been through the growth and was starting my own business, like these opportunities come up and I have no excuses. Because my only excuse is fear, but even then it's like, yeah, but I've done scary things before.

And so that, like I have no excuses anymore. And that in itself is scary and causing me to grow because it's like I can't say no to these things anymore. And so like that's been hard because I was actually how this epiphany came up as I was explaining to someone last week that I'm actually grieving my old identity. And then I was like, that doesn't even make sense because I'm a better person now. Why would I be grieving that? It's because I used to be able to hide behind all my limiting beliefs and excuses and I don't have that anymore. Yeah, yeah. And in some ways, it's a very, it's, it's the freedom of captivity in a way. I don't have to worry about all these things. There's so many things I never have to confront or challenge.

I can just hide and I don't have to allow myself to be safe. Exactly. No, for sure. And that's, and also, it's a slight tangent. You, do you have a fear of heights? Yes. I think that's why the skyscraper image specifically. You're doing one of the most fearful. You're outside on rickety scaffolding. Don't look down. You know, this is the most terrifying. conception you can imagine is I'm working outside of a skyscraper that isn't even done being built is it structurally sound who knows uh so that's also heights are because I do self-imposed things to get myself out of my comfort zone and all of those things involve heights like I've been bungee jumping I've been skydiving I've jumped off cliffs but that's because I'm so afraid of heights so yeah I think that's why that came about because also this career change is self-imposed

so I think that's what the heights represent. Yeah, definitely. It doesn't have to be a crippling fear of heights. I mean, I get the vertigo of being near an edge and feeling like I don't have good balance. And that's a real risk. If I'm by a very high place with no railing and I lose my balance, I die. There's fear of heights is not, it's not, oh, you just get over it. It's like, no, there's a risk of death.

There's a reason humans are afraid of high places. Yeah, there's like an evolutionary. Oh, for sure. For sure. We do not have wings. I think if we did, we'd have a whole different experience. that was I going to say so if I would this were my dream it would probably be uh you know I would be trapped underwater or I would be in a cave deep under the earth so I'm more like a small

spaces kind of guy and I don't trust bungee cords I would never do I'm never doing that in my life or a pair of cords uh you know probably not but I'm like 300 pounds and those things snap it happens it happens so I'm just maybe that's my excuse but I'm like I'm not taking the chance who jumps out of a perfectly good air I'm just kind of at the point where like if this is how I die, this is how I die. Fair enough. You know, no, that too. And like, there's, there's something to be said for throwing caution to the wind and saying,

you know, if I live through this, I will be better off for it. And if I don't, yeah, well, I won't even know it or I won't, certainly won't regret it. Plus, if I died bungee jumping, that's kind of a badass way to die. That's kind of bad. That is. Yeah. Did you see him? He was doing a loop-de-loop in that plane and he crashed. But, man, he almost made it.

Yeah. Oh, that reminds me of that guy, Sky King, that stole the. plane like uh and they tried to talk them down yeah yeah that's kind of a badass weight not that i'm condoning no one's encouraging going out that way yeah yeah no but it is it's true well you uh that's one thing for men is and women too do agree but actually i think it's the opposite so men are looking for a good reason to die something worthy of sacrificing themselves for and i think women more not universe your results your mileage may vary etc but women are more looking for a reason to create in that sense.

And I think there's a big disconnect in our, that's a whole separate discussion. But it just reminded me of that. But yeah, the idea of like men want a good death, a valorous death. They don't want to die for nothing. It's that counterintuitive thing of like,

you accomplish nothing and then, you know, what is it, the Valhalla method of like, you know, into battle, my friends, so we die a good death. What do you want to die old and toothless in your bed? Bah.

Yeah, I bet that's evolutionary too, though, based on how we used to live. Yeah. Yep, yep. You got to get out there and risk death to bring home the food. Literally bring home the bacon from a wild boar, that kind of a thing. Okay. Hey, we're on the final section.

We're doing it. And she's comfy over here. Stay right there. Okay. How did this conclude for you back in your child and home? We almost have a home away, home, a situation. Yes. That was five.

But it is a more accurate representation of your actual childhood home. It's really my childhood home this time is what I wrote down. The driveway is steep. It's on a hill. Your sister is borrowing. Now your sister is borrowing your car. She backs out and crashes. Is your sister older or younger?

She's older. But we kind of roll reversed. So I have older child characteristics and she has younger child characteristics. She looks to you more as a role. model or mentor in some ways? No, because we're also very disconnected. But crashing my car is actually something she would do because it's just careless. Gotcha.

Okay. I wrote down earlier, and I don't know why, and I don't know what paper it was on, but you looking to, oh, it was the high school friend, Nikki, that you almost didn't know what you looked up to her. And what is, you know, you didn't phrase it that way. You said it's more like looking into your future. Like, what is my life going to be like next? And, but there's a mentor role model element to that of like, you could imagine if I do as she does, I will get her results.

And if I don't, I'll get different results. Yeah. And it's also interesting because I'm just now piecing this together. My, Nikki and my sister were the same age and same grade. Oh. And I didn't have that in my sister. So maybe I was looking at Nikki as an older sister. Yeah, for sure.

And a lot of our friendships are that way too. we get for better or for worse and for worse would be we recreate the negative dysfunctional patterns and relationships that we have with their family so a woman was was smacked around by her dad she looks for a violent man and because it feels comfortable not because it's good not because she likes it not because she doesn't cry or doesn't feel pain but that's what she knows and and stepping out of that is actually more terrifying than being hit like but if I leave him I'll be alone yeah that's scary that is but you got to choose what's what's your yeah poison being out of that's out of of a bad relationship or staying and getting hit once in a while.

A lot of women stay. A lot of women say this. I'll put up with it. Yeah. So, but anyway, and with the friend, sister thing. So unfortunately, not having an older sister as a role model. And specifically, not just that you didn't have an older sister, but you had when she failed to be that role model.

And not that she has any obligation to, but it's nice when it happens. The ideal circumstance is older siblings, take care of younger siblings, hold their hand, show them the way. And sometimes you don't get that. I think I was a terrible older brother for my, uh, my younger brother and I don't see him very much. We're,

uh, I don't think there's animosity. I don't think he resents me or anything, but we're very different people living different lives. That's how me and my sister are. Yeah. Yeah. So I,

I, you know, sorry. Sorry, brother. If you're out there, if you ever see this episode someday, I, and I regret that too.

I regret that I, didn't have what it took to do that. I was too self-involved in my own drama and my own life and my own feelings and probably would have been better off if I had done that. Like it might have been better for me if I'd been that role model. So you've got this. So now you're home and why, why this following the skyscraper thing? So you're thinking about building your own career and the fears you have of being seen and

the necessity of being seen. Like I have to do this scary thing that feels dangerous. Feels like I'm at risk of falling up a skyscraper dangerous. um to uncover these windows and show people so what i don't want to see because it's scary um now you're at home looking at home and your sister's borrowing your car so we we talked about a car earlier because you had borrowed a car earlier in in a previous segment so it wasn't your car it was a borrowed car now she's borrowing your car i don't know if you and i think there's another analogy in this because the car that she borrowed in my dream is my actual car and going back

to the original dream about like things that I desired in childhood. I, when I was little, I always wanted a red convertible. And I now have a red convertible. And my sister borrowed it and crashed it. And that's like that was part of the reason why I was upset because it's like I worked so hard to buy this car that I always wanted and you just wrecked it. Yeah. how do we make sense of this she backs out of the car totals it and it seems like she doesn't even

really care it's your only car you're mad at her normal all that stuff perfect perfectly understandable response so what what am i trying to conceptualize here the idea that it's someone else borrowing from you in a disrespectful way i mean she's not even sorry she didn't take care because she wasn't didn't didn't care what happened And the worst came to pass. And she's not even sorry. So why show yourself this? What is it about?

So it could be related because I'm still holding on to resentment for my corporate job because it was just like super toxic. Me too. So it could be like related to that because it's like I have moved on and started my own business, but I still have resentments because ideally what I would have liked to do and was my master plan was to start my business while still in that role and build it up to the point where it's like, okay, now I feel safe jumping into it where it's like I had to just jump head first into the deep end.

No joke. He brings me hair ties to throw. Look at him. I've never had a, he's a dog. This is a dog in a cat's body. I've never had a cat like this. He plays fetch with hair ties. Sorry, distraction.

That's okay. He focused on you. I can't help it. Where was I going with that? There's a vehicles being a broadly analogy for travel, for a self-contained moving from one place to another, one state of being to another very often. He's just going to keep going.

This is your car. So there's maybe a little bit of, even if I brought my insight to my family in a way, the vehicle I provide for them to accomplish something, to go somewhere is not going to be respected and utilized properly. They're going to treat it poorly. They're going to pearls before swine in a kind of way. Am I on to something there?

I mean, maybe. Well, I actually haven't spoken to my mom in almost three. years because I tried to have a conversation with her about, and it's not even about the past anymore. It was about how she currently, or at that time, was treating me. And she just was dismissive. She blamed me for all the issues. And we had about, like, three circular conversations before I had the realization, like,

this isn't going to change. and I can't change her, so I just need to focus on me. So I explained to her, like, I have more healing to do before I can talk to you again. So it may have something to do with, like, the frustration about, like, not being heard, even by my own family. Yeah, yeah. I'm glad you said that. And I think that's perfect.

And I think I may be focused it wrong, but I'm happy to be wrong if it gets us where we're going. And I think there is a through line. It's like, I don't know that you're actually, and you may. maybe a small part of it thinking what if I could share my insights with my family today could they could I bring them along with me on this journey and maybe realistically you're thinking specifically my family my sister my mother uh you know you showed yourself your sister maybe because of the example with your mother they're not in a place where they can appreciate it they're uh they're disrespect for dismissive um and what do you do if you uh disrespect someone's vehicle you crash it

because you don't give a fuck uh or dismiss it of like you're wrong your opinion doesn't matter all the good so you might be thinking of that but But also, if we go one level up and we're looking at the concept of sharing current insights with a past incarnation of yourself, iconically represented by dysfunctional family members who today would not appreciate this advice, you might be looking at it going, you know, you can't. And that's why I said pearls before spine. It isn't like you think your family's swine, but there's always going to be a type of person

who doesn't get you, doesn't care to, not going to treat you well. you can't uh what is it we were talking internet trolls if someone's purpose there is to be an asshole you can say all the most eternal wisdom of mankind and you're gonna go i'm not reading all that so yeah fair enough uh you know um so yeah not not to insinuate you know oh your family's just swine compared to you now but the idea of what is it what is it what is it big you to do with a pearl it doesn't be can't eat it they don't get they're just going to roll in the mud so there's there's some people that are not going to some people who can't appreciate it But also it's a, it's a recognition that you, you are not your old self anymore.

You are not like that you, you are no longer inclined to be disrespectful towards this new way of seeing the world or dismissive of it and sweep it under the rug and pretend everything was always fine. You're more, being more honest with yourself saying, that was not very good. I'm in a much better place now, but I got a long way to go and I'm still struggling. And there's an element of, um, comparing who you are now to who you were then as, a validation of where you're going, I think. Something, something like that. Well, and also that aligns with my epiphany because I feel like just overall,

because usually your self-growth is like watching grass grow. Like, it's growing. Yeah. But you don't really see the day-to-day changes where it's like all of a sudden having this epiphany. It's like, wow, I'm actually seeing my growth. Yeah. Yeah, definitely.

Or suddenly you're hit with it of like, you know, you turn around and what wasn't there before is now plainly visible. and it's it feels sudden, even though it took an entire week for that grass to get tall. Exactly. You weren't looking at it, but when you finally did see it, bam,

it opens up your eyes to that. So, but this, so what am I doing here as well? I don't think this is also limited to fans. So we've got your real family. I don't think this is actually about them necessarily, but what they represent in terms of who you were and how they approach things,

the dysfunctional ways you're letting go of. But it, but it also, generalizes to the world itself of like is you can promote yourself to the wrong type of people it's like aiming your commercials at a demographic that doesn't doesn't want your services doesn't believe they're necessary doesn't reflect upon themselves it's this might also be about generically finding the right clientele for your business so like i need people who are going to i'm going to offer them a vehicle for self-improvement through me and they need i need to

people who are respectful and not dismissive of what I have to offer, they're going to treat me well in this context. Something like that. Yeah, no, that makes sense because especially like life coaching, a lot of people like dismiss it as like woo woo or whatever. When you just go to a real doctor? Who's wrong with you? Yeah.

But like for people like me, because like traditional therapy never worked for me. So that's why I turned to a coach. and it changed my life. But people like me are a very small demographic because, again, like, it's just not the traditional route. There's just, like, various reasons. Also, it's expensive. Not everyone can afford it.

But, like, once you see the value of it, like, I have no problem investing money in a coach now, but I understand it is hard to get started. So, yeah, it is hard to market something that's a luxury, even. though it is developing and growing yourself. Definitely. I just hand a thought here. I need to. I just need to fix something real quick in the background. Everything's fine. It was book 13. Because I think we're, I think we've gone through the dream deal. And I just wanted to make sure I had this ready to go, because I'm going to forget all of that. Okay. All right. Let's leave that there. Um, okay. I probably should have just done that while you were talking about something else. Sometimes I'm still learning how to do

this and embarrassing myself daily. So yeah, if you really want to see me embarrass myself, watch my video game streams as I scream obscenities at a stupid collection of pixels on my screen. That's, that's an amazing lesson too. It's like, why would something that doesn't even exist agitate me so much? Well, because I want something out of the experience and I'm not getting it. I'm frustrating myself by my own goals. Now, does that mean the goals are not worthy? No, I think they are in a way. Uh, but certainly there's less. at stake. It's a low, low stakes. It's a video game. If I never played it ever again, my life's not going to, it'd probably be better. I'd be scream, scream less. Um, but still,

I want to do it. I want to see the story. I want to see how it ends out. I got, I got something I want to get out of the experience and being stuck in that process. So frustrating. Uh, sometimes you've got to let it out and call someone a dirty mother trucker. Um, well, do you have any elements that we discuss that you wanted to focus in on more or, uh, looking for a specific symbol, okay, why this, why presented in that way? Or do you think we pulled a story out of it that makes sense? Yeah, because I think we pulled the story out of it that made sense. Because honestly, because I told you, I just had this dream one night and I woke up and

I was like, oh, this will be perfect to analyze. But from that moment up until we started analyzing it, I'm like, this doesn't make any sense at all. It just sounded like this disjointed, crazy random stuff. That's why I love it. I love the mystery. Yeah. I was like, oh my God, this makes so much sense.

And hopefully, I mean, this is why I believe it's real, is that I, I didn't, I didn't choose to tell me a fake story and I didn't choose to give you a fake answer. This really happened to it. You saw some things and felt some things and brought it out of your subconscious to, for discussion. And as we're talking about it, I had thoughts about the way things were presented. I gave you those thoughts and you go, wait a minute, let me tell you something.

And that, that happens every, it blows my mind every single time. I could not, I could not promise you this is, this would work ever. And it does every time for almost every time. Unbelievable. That's a, I love it. But also this is kind of how coaching works because people, they're like, why did I do this? It doesn't even make sense. But from an outsider, it's like, well, you're doing it because you're self-sabotaging

because you're scared of this and this is your internal belief about that. Absolutely. Yeah. But also I love the same concept. No, I think it's very much true. You're using real. The funny thing is we had psychology long before they ever called in psychology. We had, we used to have, you know, you used to confess to the priest to get things off your chest and he would tell you, well, here's how to a better way to live maybe.

Or what if you try these things? What if you go talk to your wife instead of talking to me about your problems? Maybe that's a better idea. Maybe you bring her in and we'll talk together. That's fine. But then, but there's also the thing that I do, which is I like this better. It's very self-contained, very low style. I love me some low stakes.

Let me tell you. I screw this up. I'm sorry. What are you going to do? I'm embarrassed, but nobody dies. Also, I'm not telling you how to live.

I'm not telling you what you should or shouldn't do. I'm not telling you have any conditions. I'm saying, here's what I see. And hopefully it's useful. And I always, I feel good. I feel good when it is.

So I'm glad. Yeah, this is super useful. It makes a ton of sense. Very cool. Like, who knew? Like even the skyscraper dream. I was like,

this is like, fully irrelevant. Yeah. Oh, I love it. The more bizarre, the better. Like, this means something. There is some connection in there.

Some train of thought. Yeah. No, I've definitely been stymied too. There's been things where I'm like, I don't know what that means. And I, that's one thing I've become more comfortable with as well of like getting over the stage for the public embarrassment. I've been wrong about so many things. So often, I'm like numb to it.

It's like you take your hand, you hit it like 6,000 times. And eventually you can't feel it anymore. I'm like, yep, I was wrong again. Moving on. as long as nobody dies. There's no, low stakes, low stakes. Yeah, very low. Okay.

Well, if you are satisfied with the process, this has been, yeah, I had an up around two and a half hours. So I never know all these things you're going to take either. Yeah, this is amazing. Thank you. Very cool. Well, then, by way of wrapping up, I will say this has been, oh, and I didn't, I didn't mention it, but you said this has been our friend Angie Hawkins from Hawaii.

She is an inner glow coach, a public speaker, an author of running in slippers. I don't think we spoke too much about. Why that title? I can't briefly. Well, the real story is the introduction of the book, so I will not give that away. But basically in Hawaii, flip flops are called slippers. So it basically means running in flip flops. And I think running in flip flops is a metaphor for life because it can be fun and playful and adventurous,

but it can also be dangerous and painful and scary. They don't stay on your feet very well. You're more likely to lose a shoe running. You will probably fall and get hurt. Yes, exactly. Well, there we go. Okay, so yeah, I'm going to start over completely now that we've got that. This has been our friend Angie Hawkins, author of Running in Slippers, memoir about dropping

social masks and social media facades to connect through vulnerability. And of course, you can find more about that at running in slippers.com. For my part, would you kindly like, share, and subscribe? Always need more volunteer dreamers. I play video games. Most days, Monday through Friday, 5 p.m. to 8 p.m. Pacific. This episode brought to you in part by... I got it on the screen there. ABC Book 13 Dream Psychology by Maurice Nicole out of 1920.

All of this and more, of course, at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com. And if you'd head on over to Benjamin the Dream Wizard. Dot, Locals.com, building a community there attached to my Rumble account, free to join. That is that. Angie, good talk. Thank you for being here. I appreciate it. Yes, thank you so much. This is amazing. Good deal. And everybody out there, thank you for watching. We'll see. You next time.