Dreamscapes Podcasts - Dreamscapes Episode Episode 143: Judgment of the Nornir

Episode Date: October 11, 2023

"And to a meeting Hveðrungr's maid called the third king from the world, at the time when Halfdan, he who lived at Holt, had embraced the judgment of the nornir; and at Borró the victorious men later did hide the king." - Snorri Sturluson, Ynglinga saga

Greetings friends and welcome back to another episode of Dreamscapes today we have back our friend jesse athervagin from oh where were you again it's Tennessee you said see there we go I just remember you just told me like five minutes ago my memory is terrible he is the host of Midgard musings you can find him on youtube link in the description below we'll get right back to him in two seconds if would you kindly like share subscribe tell your friends about this program also the game streams i do money through friday most days at 5 p.m. 16, 16, currently available works of historical dream literature, the most recent dreams in their meanings by Horace G. Hutchinson. Book 17 coming soon. I'm making no progress on that. I'm just busy. I'm just busy. It happens. All this and more at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, including a full list of the books and, oh, my goodness.

A full list of the books and downloadable MP3 versions of this very podcast. That and if you'd head on over to Benjamin thedreamwizard. Dot locals.com. That's where I'm trying to start a community and would prefer to receive any sustaining donation. nations a dollar a month i'll take it i'm not greedy that's enough of the shilling back to jessie thanks for returning to be a guest again and thanks for having me back yeah right now we were just kind of shooting the breeze beforehand talking about anything nothing i figured that was we just might as well just throw on the recording you get going absolutely that's why i like to do it too you know

just kind of do the fat as they say yeah exactly well i was going to just ask you like what you've been up to since any new uh projects going on i've seen a couple of your videos pop up i haven't to watch them yet. Oh, yeah, it's just pretty consistent stuff. I mean, you know, podcast every week, a lot of short form content. I'm trying to test the YouTube algorithm out to see how they blend my short form content with my long form content. The Facebook community blew up almost overnight.

Like, I was sitting in around 5 or 6,000 followers, and I'm near close to 17,000 as of today. So that was a really wild. That was a wild, like, spike in engagement. The YouTube channel's growing. We're about 5,500 subs over there. Very cool. Did you track the...

Go ahead. I'll say it's just like a steady hill. Nice. Very cool. I was going to ask if you track the Facebook expansion to anything in particular. Like, if you look, oh, that was the turning point, or if you know or not. I mean, there was a lot of shows. there was there were some short form well there are right now like there's one short form like real

like how facebook and instagram have the reels which is like equivalent to youtube shorts um one of those videos has over 100 000 views wow and it like i think that was one of the things like seven seven and a half thousand reactions and oh yeah that was one of the things that really kind of got it into everybody's newsfeed or, and then, you know, following the, the, exposure, you know, people follow you because of it.

Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it almost seems a miracle in some ways. Like, what's going to suddenly catch fire? You know, it's got to be the right content, the right set of people with the right time. And then suddenly it goes, I'm interested in this. And that just kind of spreads and people share it with each other. And I wish I knew how to the formula to make it happen. You know, to do is like make clickbait content that's not interested i don't care if i never get that

popular it's just not my style and i don't think you did but i know there's that is one way a lot of people do it and it is very successful it's like this is not me so whatever you know i don't know i mentioned that method at all i was like just okay i know how to do that but i'm just not going to do it so it's a fine line i think you know especially as as a content creator you know you got to be creative and think of ways to not like compromise your brand but also stay relevant because it's such a saturated thing. That really is. Everyone,

everyone on their mother's got a Facebook page in an opinion. It's one of those things. Yeah. Yeah. Probably there's, I don't know, there's probably something I could do to be a little more savvy with how I clip my content.

Like, as you saw up after, we did our episode, and as anyone watching might know, you might not. I do a Tuesday teaser trailer, which is just kind of a, look, what's the dream we're going to be talking about this week?

And then I kind of leave it out there for two purposes, advertise ahead of time that the main content is coming. But also, I like to put it out there, and not a lot of people watch these. Fair enough, maybe the thumbnails aren't interesting, or nobody really cares. They're just either going to watch the episode or they're not. But the real reason is, I hope it captures people's imaginations of like, okay, what, number one, wow, that's an interesting dream. I wonder what it does mean.

And then people's brains maybe start going, how would I interpret this dream? and they have some time to think about it and sleep on it, literally. And then they eventually get the full episode on Thursdays and they find out what I offer suggestions and what people have decided they think are reasonable understandings within that framework. But then also on Thursdays, and then Fridays, I take a clip from the show that I think highlights

some kind of an interesting principle or explanation of something. And I make that at five to ten minute clip. And then from that five to ten minute clip, I make a YouTube short that kind of tries to encapsulate what that was. So I try to do, I've tried to streamline that process and maybe I need to do something different. Maybe it is what it is and it'll just get, I've had some pretty steady slow, but steady growth over the years. And, and, you know, a lot of, what am I trying to say, what I've heard and I think it's kind of a truism is that, you know, it takes 10 years to become an overnight success. Like suddenly after, yeah, suddenly after enough of consistent work, you become.

something and at least by that point you'll know this is happening or it's not ever I don't know also that like especially on the YouTube platform and a lot of really big creators will back this up is that um put the content out and once you get to where you've hit about 10,000 views on on that content you're going to start noticing or the it's going to the algorithm's going to like figure out like oh you start pushing this out, but clearly you're in a, you're in a very niche topic. You know, like dreams and stuff. So that could be, it just hasn't figured out, like, who do I need to send this stuff to?

Who needs to see it, you know? But I've heard that, like, that magic number is like 10,000 views of collective views, right? Not just on one particular piece of content, but, I don't know. And, you know, would they say that now or whenever? and then you're like next week the algorithm changes and they're coming back and they're going hey youtube changed something or this platform changed something you're like damn it i had just got to the point right what worked and i got to relearn it again sure yeah or suddenly your views drums like do people lose interest or yeah did the algorithm change it might being recommended less who knows yeah and and i

think i'm making a mistake that i kind of knew was a mistake to begin with um but it seemed like a necessary mistake because okay so i'm all over the place on the meta meta on this i heard Someone recently opine, and I'd heard it before, but it brought it back to memory that what you don't want to do is change your tags in some ways or where you list is this humor, is this gaming, is this education. And I'm like categories. Categories. That's the word I'm looking for. So typically all of my videos I put under education because I'm hoping what I'm bringing to the table is something edutainment in a way. It's like here's something that should be interesting to listen to and you take something away from it.

you learn something about psychology, you learn something about dreams. And certainly you see the process that I seem to use, whatever it is, to get a reasonable understanding of dreams. And maybe you can do that for yourself at home because I'm not going to hopefully someday I hope to have more guests than I have time to talk to. That has not been the case yet, but it's aspirational. Okay, that being the case, I do switch back and forth between categories. I created a second channel called Dream Wizard plays for my video game streams.

and I thought that's dumb because nobody knows, you know, the Dream Wizard channel is virtually unknown. It's a few thousand people. And then I'm going to start a new channel that nobody watches either. And I thought better to keep it all in one place. Okay, so I heard recently that it's better not to change categories that that screws with the algorithm. So certainly I think I'm shooting myself in the foot in that regard.

It doesn't know where to promote me. Is this guy, is this a gaming channel or is this an education channel? Like, well, it's both. I don't know. Maybe. Kind of wear many hats. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing.

And it's like, I like playing video games. And I like the idea that I can stream games and have people show up and talk to me and enjoy watching me play. I'm going to play them anyway. I might as well record it and share it. And I just put it on the same channel. So whether you're interested in the dreams or you just want to watch me be terrible at video games, it's one-stop shop and no second channel, no need for that. I decided to keep it all in one place. So, yeah, long story short.

I've seen, I've seen, I've seen, I've seen to go both ways, you know, especially with. some of the bigger content creators like they'll have they'll even have their own uh channel for their short form content like they'll they'll they'll they'll separate it out and it gets that granular and i'm like i'm not that big and even if i were i mean i just find me on one place you know you ain't got to worry about hey if you find another midgard musings out there just know that it's not me ah because you're i got the one you know for sure people make uh bot accounts and and they they they poach other people's stuff and they don't give credit and there's a lot of ways to go about it yeah yeah yeah and you know again and even within these say you know strictly ethical ways that we're doing

there's better and worse ways to kind of do that kind of stuff what i'm hoping for is that the confusion what that what ultimately probably does confuse the algorithm in having multiple categories on a single channel back and forth i think that'll i hope it will it will be overridden someday by the idea that people find me through the gaming and say Oh, he does dreams too. And they find me through the dreams and say, oh, this guy,

he also plays video games. And then they just watch me. And hopefully it'll grow organically from that. That's why I always tell people, you know, like, share, subscribe,

and please tell your friends. Like, if you have a friend who's like, never, uh, doesn't know about me, just let them know. Hey,

you're interested in dreams. I know a guy. Uh, and then they watch or they don't. That's fine. But you did what you can. If you enjoy what I do, you know,

that kind of thing. So, and I'm, I'm also fine to just keep at it for another 10 years. I mean, I'm just enjoying the process. So if I'm not, I'm not even trying to become rich, you know, I'd like to make more money than I do. That would be nice.

That would be all, right? But yeah, but I'm just like, I'm not even complaining either. I just like, I like the idea that maybe more people who would enjoy my content, I have a chance to discover it. That's about it. And then, you know, maybe someday that caps out at a certain number of thousand people. And that's just all the people in the world who give a damn. Fine. I can live with that.

I just, what are you going to do? I'm going to keep doing it anyway. So, because I just enjoy the process. Maybe like, especially with what you do with with dream interpretations and dream studies, you know, I mean, I think a lot of people want to know if there is anything consider when they dream. It just don't really know, like, where to go with it, you know? Is it a religious thing? Is it a psychology thing? Is it just random?

So I think you're helping in that way with like creating a space to say, hey, let's look at, you know, is there something religious about it? Spiritual psychology related, maybe nothing at all. Like let's explore all of the possibilities, you know? Yeah. I think I definitely want to get better with the areas that I'm less comfortable with. And I think that's only going to happen over time. The more I engage with content. It's kind of a thing like I mean, you mentioned say three.

things and and I'm one of them I'm pretty solid on and the other one's not so much but I'm open to it I'm like inviting that in in terms of let's let's see where this goes let's find out what there is in that in that area in that space and I think definitely the just the raw psychology of brain function in terms of dreams is very real and true of course most comfortable with that I think the spiritual side is is also very real I have less facility with is what I'm saying but but but I think I think whether or not what am I trying to say whether or not a certain give and spiritual system is true, as long as you are thinking or perceiving or experiencing life

through that lens, that has a validity to it that may lead more heavily on the psychology side and less explicitly accepting or faith-based spiritual side. I think sometimes they blend together so well that it almost doesn't matter. If this is where you're coming from, then it absolutely does have meaning to you. It's not fake or false belief or anything like that. It's something very real. True. I think from my last experience, with you, you know, you helped me, like, think in that way, too. You know, like, not being the expert, but just being given a glimpse to your process has helped me explore that side of it and kind of start there, you know?

Like, what is making this whole thing tick? Like, what's the mechanical side of it, like, you know? And then if it touches on something that's more close to my heart, it kind of helps again feed that the direction that it goes in you know or at least it has for me so not not to put you on the spot but have you and so you brought me some a couple of dreams and we'll talk about those very soon um but have there been other kind of dream experiences where because you what am i trying to say because you were able to experience my process and go oh that's kind of how it works you were able to put together a few things on your own about some dream imagery

that you didn't need to bring me because you got a fairly good understanding again not to put you on the about you do or you don't that's just curious well that's really odd you ask it because um you know i don't recall a lot of you know again i think we talked about this the last time i was on here about uh you know do dream every night or there's that there's that common or very popular thing that you do have dreams it's just a matter of what it was that you remember of it right um if you're talking man i don't hear you no no sorry i actually i muted myself for a second it's just weird and i don't know how this is going to turn on on the recording that little electronic cum comes back he goes away comes back and goes away i have no idea what it's going to

be like on the recording uh it may not even show up on the recording who knows um but i was wondering if it was coming from my mic i don't know do you hear it again i i hear this like a little per yeah a little per vibration i just i know it's like pulsing Doesn't seem to be any electronic device I can I can fathom. No idea. I'm going to mute myself real quick to try and see if that doesn't anything. Let's see what happens.

Nah, it's still there with you muted. Okay. Interesting. You know, this is one of those things where I say we ignore it, screw it, and it is what it is. And hopefully I won't need to do anything to fix it. To fix the audio in post, we'll see. I've, interesting. Behind the scenes, we're talking shop.

I have an audio, all the programs I use are free, which is probably one of the reasons I'm thoroughly unprofessional in this all. I use, except Stream Labs. I mean, Stream Labs is free, but then I pay for the multi-streaming for the games. Fair enough. So it's paid. But the Stream Labs, you know, desktop set up was all free. So that's what I use.

I use Audacity. I use OpenShop Video Editor. And this thing for making the shorts is called VSDC free video editor. You can probably find a dozen of them. I'm not recommending that one necessarily. That's the one I learned how to use. But, okay, long story short, on audacity. So that is also where I do my audio recordings for the books.

And if I do say so myself, my vocal performance, reading the books aloud is miles better than was from the first one. And hopefully we'll continue to get better. But also my facility with the audio processing. So I can actually take a video like this. And if there's a little background noise, I can kind of isolate it and use some of the software to strip it out without ruining the whole audio. So that's something I do. So if there's a little electronic noise going on, we'll try and take it out. Otherwise, I'm going to ignore it, and hopefully no one else cares.

Yeah. We'll see. To your point, don't dream a lot. Okay. So if I dream every night, I don't remember the dreams when I wake up the next day. Me too, yeah. They don't retain it. So to answer your question or whatever, I think what limited recollection is, I think what limited

recollections that I retain, you know, the experience that you and I shared and kind of getting to see your processes as helped. Okay. Those really, like, seemingly minute or insignificant details about a dream, like what can I recall specifically about it,

that in the moment didn't seem significant, but recalling it and replaying it and reintroducing it into the processing of the dream, Yeah. Maybe it was significant, you know? So it has. Yeah, it was, it was really insightful and I learned a lot through, you know, interaction with that.

So very cool. That is always my hope. I mean, it was always possible you and I never got this chance to talk again. You never had another dream. You never had time to appear on the show, all of those things. But then to get that kind of feedback, because I always hope that that is something I want to have happen, certainly for guests. but but for the audience as well like you just kind of pay attention to what I do

and you kind of watch enough of the repetitions of it and kind of see how I seem to do it hopefully you can intuit some of the same stuff it does it does help I mean part of I'd say what I maybe uniquely bring to the table is is my kind of autistic pattern recognition

type of thing I've got going on which may be a bit of a unique skill that some people don't have you know not not to to my own horn but something where it's like, you know, it's the benefit that goes with the drawbacks of some other stuff like certain verbal processing and decision making,

different things like that. So you get a little rain man action. Very good accounting cards. Not so good at missing Wapner. Right, right. Routine, routine. No, no, no. It's time. Wapner time. Hey. That's me, definitely. I got my routines. But also that is

and not just maybe say the background in psychology, but I think it's foundational and then the experience of like how to tease out what's, how to really understand what the, what the terms mean and what's what and what fits in those categories and doesn't. There's like a pop psych understanding, a lot of misunderstanding, misimpression in the general public about what psychology is,

how it works, et cetera. So that's all good too. But then also just a personal fascination with symbols and connect the connections between symbols. What is the different layers of meta understanding of things. And I'm not even as good as, many, many, many other people. I mean, I would cite probably, you know,

absolutely, you know, a, a hero of mine or a mentor in somebody with Carl Young. Unbelievable. Like, he invented this, a lot of the systems of symbology and how we understand it. And it makes sense. So, you know, definitely drawing on that. But then someone say like Jordan Peterson, he's seeing. Framework fits. Yeah, the framework. Yeah, for sure. And then, and then guys like Jordan Peterson where he's just, I think, legit, tens of IQ points higher than me, absolutely and seeing connections and and formulating ideas and expressing them in ways I just can't I can't compete with that probably if Jordan Peterson were doing this show he would do it much better than me in the exact same format but he's he's on other projects

he's on another level which is why I enjoy watching watching his content there but he is I mean I like I like hearing what he has to say about things there's another guy that I like not on the same but he's been on another podcast that I listened and watched sometimes is Theo Vaughn's this past weekend. Yeah. Theo Vaughn's a comedian, but he's had Jordan on his show at least us two or three times. Yeah, I just saw one of those recently. I did the last couple weeks.

Yeah. And so, like, you get this, like, you know, the fact that Jordan comes on there with a guy like Theo, they can have, like, good conversations. He's also been on, like, the Joe Rogan experience and other, you know, really high-end, like, big audience, you know. Oh, yeah. Podcast and stuff. So it's really cool. see the diversity that where he'll he'll come and he'll talk you know and and and and there is it there's

entertainment to it but you learn some things too i think that's a great skill to have is that you can kind of go anywhere people are genuinely curious and interested in having a conversation and just talk to him you know that's it's a fantastic thing it's but i also also kind of i mean one of the things that was fun to watch over the last few years was with some of his wrecked compilations you know those different different places where people put him in very antagonistic situations and he gets a little snippy but he puts him here he's very good of verbal jousting like yeah yeah he's very eloquent with yeah i'm not that good that's not me i'm not going to be i'm not going to i'm not going to

formulate my thoughts coherently and verbal jujitsu no i can't do that that's not my thing but that's an interesting thing too is like so people listen to to this show and they'd uh so let's let's say i've got people i talk to on discord we argue in text a much better arguing in text because sometimes i need to read a thing and think about it compose a reply look at what i composed that's not what i meant to say edit it and it takes me like five minutes to respond one question or or challenge that's not happening verbally people are not going to wait five minutes while you pause and think and write an answer out and then read it verbatim think on your feet no i can't i just can't do it no but now i can't do that in a debate format i can do it in a

friendly collaborative discussion format like this i can i'm kind of you know within my specialty of course you get me into other areas where like i've never heard of that what is that okay so you're explaining to me something new now i got to absorb and process that i don't know what to say i don't have a comment on that maybe i'll just think about it for a while okay good talk one of two things right you got it you got it's like you got to and i've been in those places positions too right you got to either um got to dazzle them with brilliance or baffle them with b there is that yeah if you just kind of vamping, just filling time. You gotta say something.

But that... A lobuster, you know. Well, I love it too. Well, like a debate, you're meant to have a response that counters the propositions of the other person. In a regular discussion, which again, I have more facility with verbally, is like, I can just say, I don't know, tell me more about that. And then you let the other person talk.

You just whatever your curiosity leads you is perfectly fine. You don't have to have all the answers. In a debate, you're supposed to have answers or you're conceding defeat where it's like, that's tough. That's not it. That's not. I don't really enjoy it. debate as much as sharing ideas.

Even if, even if I have a conflict of opinion with someone, it's more like, okay, that's what you see. Well, I see it this way. It looks like we disagree.

Okay, fair enough. I'm not really interested in defeating anybody or forcing them to adopt my opinion or confess. I am the winner. I just don't care. Just no interest. That doesn't make me feel good.

That's what other. Okay, we're just getting personal and whatnot. That's one of the reasons I never enjoyed, say, sports as a kid, never really enjoyed being physical. So anyway, I'm just kind of a sedentary type.

I just like to not be sweaty and tired and sore. Fair enough. But I didn't enjoy the feeling of losing a sporting competition, nor did I enjoy the feeling of winning. I felt sorry for the other guys. There was literally no winning, whether I won or lost. And so I just decided to stop engaging in those competitions. I didn't want to defeat anyone, and I didn't want to be defeated. So it's like, why play?

Why force myself to endure that? That's always been kind of just a general, yeah, general perspective on my part. So, enough about me. Sorry, I'm rambling. Now, it's great to learn that part of yourself, you know, that you're willing to share it. Yeah. There's a part of the ego that eads off of that, you know, gratification. And I don't know if it's age or if it's things that I've learned over the years that have,

shifted my worldviews to the degree that they have or what, or maybe it's a combination of all those things, you know, that have landed me in a place in my life now where I kind of vibe with you on that, you know, like I don't really care if you think I'm right or wrong.

I don't have to be the victor in this case, you know. This is just my opinion, man. Yeah. Right? The dude. This is just where I'm coming from on it. And so, you know, you can either agree with me or not, I'm not going to lose sleep over it at the end of the day.

Yeah. Is what it is. Definitely. And I think a lot of, I think it's typically, what is it? Life stage-wise, it's pretty normal that most people, most young men, keep it in that category, have a tendency to seek confrontation, conflict, to test themselves, to engage in competition. And, you know, and maybe I had less than the average, and maybe some people do. but it seems to be a typical thing. Whereas women tend to focus more on the equalization.

The game they play is more of how do we make sure we're all the same in a cooperative, harmonious way. Guys are a little more, let's find out who's the best. Let's establish a hierarchy here. And then a lot of guys also tend to be a little more comfortable with, dude, he can run really fast. Let's make him the leader. There you go.

they just follow the guy who can run fast because he demonstrates a skill. Delegates. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, long story short on that is that as men get older, we do tend to also mellow out where it's like, I did the competition thing. I proved to myself to myself. I don't need to do that anymore. There's no need to continue that struggle at the same level. I've achieved what I got out of it what I wanted. So it's very common men, mellow out with age. You know, a lot of people say. I had a, I had an experience. Go ahead. That's true. But I had an experience. like that just this past week online and you know I'm sure you've seen or you've experienced you know the this the keyboard warrior types you know yeah and um but anyway it was like I had I had um I was I was told over a Facebook comment that I was a coward mm or turning comments off disabling comments on a post that I made in this like public Facebook group right I was a coward for that. And I'm like, all right, man, I'm going to be here.

And I gave him, like, a location. Because I'm going to be at an event. It's a public event. It's in a public park. There's kids. There's women. Like, everybody's here. I'm like, come here and call me a coward to my face.

This is literally where I'll be. And he's like, why? So all your friends can beat me up. I'm like, hold on a minute now. What is that even about? I literally just told you, if you're going to tell somebody that they're a coward over your keyboard, and I'm giving you the opportunity to tell me to my face, who's the coward now?

You could show up and do the thing that you are doing so bravely, right? I use the term like air quotes, bravely over your keyboard. Did they show up? No. Did I expect them to? Kind of. I'm like, yeah, you talk a big game. Now let's see what you're about.

But did it surprise me that they didn't show up? No. Do I even, you know, I don't even normally engage with, with the trolls in that way, you know, don't feed the trolls as kind of like a mantra to live by it. Because most people are out here just trying to get a rise out of you. It doesn't mean anything at the end of the day. Yeah. Really.

So. For sure. That was funny, you know, like he was, you coward. For what? Not wanting to be inundated with 500 and some odd comments on a post that I made. Like, whatever, dude. Yeah. No, that's, that's interesting.

There's so much to. unpack in that in that idea and I hate using the term unpack because it's usually you hear that on from certain political actors but lots of concepts have are dense with meaning so in this one has so many layers to it the idea of um you get the internet tough guy meme i mean it's a meme for a reason and then it became the navy seal copy posta what did you say to me i have over 300 confirmed kills and it's like okay number one why should i take you seriously that anything you're saying is true i don't know you you could be lying. If I assume you are lying,

it's just threatening someone mean you're right? What is the point of this? Why is this happening? Why call someone a coward because you don't want a bunch of negative comments? Where, from where does the obligation to endure or negative comments come from?

Who cares? I don't want to hear them. Done. I'm turning off. What is it? Tyler the creator, how is internet bullying real just turn off your computer? Some people turn off the comments. Fair enough. I don't want to be, I don't want to hear a bunch of crap that I think is stupid. So fair enough. Or the idea of, I've, I've had this experience lately again, arguing with the little debates in discord and whatnot on a different server. Um, where I go, it happened literally just today, not an hour ago. I said, hey, I've got to go. I've got real life responsibilities.

I wish you all a pleasant afternoon. And then the next comment, because I'm leaving the conversation, the debate was coward running away. Like, Man, I got shit to do. What are you talking about? And then I say, that's, that's kind of bad faith. I mean, people have things they need to do. They can't be in discord all those. Whatever loser.

And that's tough too, because you're like, should I care what these people think? And I don't know. I'm in kind of a community with them, which is tough too, because we've got the, the anonymous ability to be a freaking sociopath and just maliciously misrepresent people on purpose to get a rise out of them. The trolling, trolling, it's like, it's beyond. Sometimes you say troll. things that are like, I'm not serious, but I think this is funny. And you can't throw it out there.

It's provocative. Fine. There's trolling of that level. Then there's like serious people who are like, they just want to hurt somebody and they don't care who. And it just happens to be you right now because you're here. And like, and then parsing that out is like because we're so this is another layer to it. And I've, you know, speaking of Peterson, he's talked about this before. In the in the in the in the broad strokes, we grew up for what grew up. We evolved for thousands of years like the 350. thousand years in almost this current human composition physically long long long time um mostly a little tribal units of you know 20 50 100 people whatever and so we're very sensitive to in-person communication and and listening to the people around us their feedback because that's how we orient ourselves to what

is real versus delusional and and whether another person is right they still have feelings who are we say feelings aren't always right but they're always real you feel what you feel that's true whether you should, whether you should or not. Yeah. So we get these things where we have a little niggling down in our head that says, wait a minute, is this person making a valid criticism of me? Should I listen? And sometimes it's hard to tell.

And sometimes even if you're damn certain they're wrong and you know, just being a jerk, you're like, was it any asshole? Could they be right? It's such a challenge, right? Yeah, yeah. You know, and I've had this discussion with people before too where, you know, I'm not trying to invalidate you and I'm not invalidating your opinion. I'm just simply saying that just because you're valid doesn't mean you're correct.

Like your feelings are valid. It could be wrong. Yeah. Actually wrong. Right? All of those things. Like, but, you know, people need to, I think, just realize that, you know. You can you can die on that hill if you want to.

I think we've all done it in some asses. specs, you know, doesn't make you right, correct, or anything like that. It's, it's, it's, it's not invalid. It's just, it could be just flat out wrong. And take ownership of that and be responsible enough to accept that when, when it's applicable. Oh, yeah. And then you get the people who are kind of like, if they yell louder or get the last word, that means they're right.

They're very determined for that. Yeah. So very often in a lot of these conversations, I just say, that's an interesting idea. I disagree. Thanks for talking. And they're just not satisfied to agree to disagree. Like, no, one of us has to admit they're wrong. I'm like, that's not going to happen.

Don't ask me to do that because I don't think I'm wrong. Do you think you're wrong? Again, that's another thing, too. It's like, they, I run across a certain type of person who's, like, shocked that other people could have a different opinion and speak it and mean it and not be interested in changing it and that there's nothing they can do about that. And, you know, on one side of it, there's like, the perception of arrogance. Fair enough. If you are just so damn certain that you're not going to let

anyone change your mind, maybe you're a little arrogant. Fine. Then again, again, as you get to a certain age as a man or anybody, as a human being, you've had a lot of these arguments before. You've considered a lot of the evidence before. And it's pretty rare. A new piece of information comes along you go, I didn't know that. I've never thought of it that way. Let me modify my perspective. So part of it may be a bit of an age thing with somebody, you know, Discord tends to be a younger crowd. So maybe I'm dealing with folks who are struggling a little bit more with their own understanding and they need that, get that competitive spirit of, I'm trying to figure

this out. I'm not so certain. You can't possibly be as certain as you are. And I'm like, I'm telling you, I probably thought about exactly what you're thinking before. And I came to a different conclusion. Fair enough. Maybe you never change your mind in your entire life.

Maybe a few years down the road, you're like, I've heard enough that now I've formed a solid opinion that kind of represents what I believe. and what is it is like an old dog new tricks in some ways it's like you've yeah at least you've got that at least you've got that capacity to accept when new things come that could potentially change or shift yeah where you see things and you're willing to accept that or or at least entertain that idea right you've got that cognizant ability to go all right for this however long I was thinking a certain way maybe this new piece of evidence, this new discovery, right, changes everything.

That's the objective side of things, you know, that you have to be willing to. I think that's kind of like the scientific method style of thing where we've got pretty solid theories, gravity. And that doesn't mean that gravity couldn't change or the theory of gravity, the theory of gravity, the theory we think we understand couldn't change. And we go, oh, we learned a new way. Now, I'm hoping it does. I'm really solidly, this is a different tangent, but.

I am hoping someday we learn gravity control and we can then have flying cars, etc. Or a personal anti-gravity belt that allows us to fly like Superman. Hallelujah. Let that happen in my lifetime. But this, I don't know, there's a lot of different ways to understand that. One way is that it doesn't mean the, it doesn't mean the phenomenon of gravity has changed.

Whatever that was is always the same. Like the physical laws of the universe are actually immutable. We just didn't know how to interact with it properly. We didn't know. It's like fire always existed before we learned how to make it with flint and steel. And, you know, before we understood that. And all the things. Yeah, before we understood that it took, you know, fuel, oxygen and a spark.

Yeah, yeah. And even in the absence of those three things, fire is still real conceptually. It's like the potential for fire existed long before fire ever happened for the first time. That blows my mind sometimes, too. So hopefully that happens with gravity where our theory of gravity, changes what it is and how we understand the concept we have of it changes because we learn something new and that's kind of where i'm at too it's but but some things i believe say today uh some things some are some are some are a lot more fuzzy but some things i believe today are kind of like 99.99

i'm sure i will leave room for doubt but it's not very likely that's that's kind of where i come from and then yeah unless it's like unless we're arguing with a someone in a life or death situation where one person is definitely wrong and someone and a decision has to be made I'm just not interested in in the the struggle for dominance, so to speak. Like, I don't want to tell me what to do or believe. Like, fine, you do you. Leave me out of it.

And I got no problem with it. You know, I might recommend don't do that. That's kind of where I'm at on the libertarian side of things where it's like, I might believe the drug war is a bad idea. I also recommend people don't do heroin. I think both of these things are true. Let's not throw people in prison and let's maybe not do heroin because that's, I recommend against it.

It's a very bad idea. It'll mess you up. Et cetera, et cetera. So I'm just not willing to, yeah, use that force to stop someone who's like, you do you, man. I think it's a bad idea, but, you know, I don't want to hurt anybody. So I'm going to, I'm going to, I'm going to say hand.

Yeah, I always kind of, I do. I kind of take a similar, you know, approach to a lot of things where, you know, with my content and the nature of the things that I talk about, there's a lot of people that are new to these things that come to me. or ask questions in the community about how should I do such and such a thing, right? How do I do X, Y, Z? And a lot of what I've come to realize is, like, you know,

it's your hall, your call. You make the decision on how you should do things, right? Here's how I do things. Here's how I do it my way. Don't take what I'm saying as canon and don't take what I'm saying as this, like, overarching law that you should follow. This is just one person's perspective on things.

This is just one person's approach to things. Maybe that approach, maybe that perspective helps inspire and lay down a framework for you, too. You can build off of that, like a blueprint. Yeah. But it's very loose, you know what I mean? It's a loose blueprint. Like, just here's what's worked for me. Here's probably what's worked for a lot of others, you know.

But figure it out for yourself, man. Build your own thing. And then sometimes realize that when you build something, got to pare it down and start over again. Like that thing didn't work. Let's start over, start from scratch, right? Go back to basics, that sort of thing. Yeah, definitely. And I think that's one of the, what is it? There's the specific rituals, say, to a certain worship. And that's one thing, but they are meant to represent something higher. There's a reason they exist, say, in that form. And there's possibly other forms that are also consistent with that higher meta-narrative

or whatever it is, you know, meta-explanation. The archetype. The archetype. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So as long as you're working within that archetypal framework, you could do it a slightly different way. And, you know, so what would you say? Not all wizards have beards or long hair. Fair enough. That doesn't mean you're not a wizard. You're a different kind, perhaps, where you present yourself in a different way. Maybe some rituals have certain elements that mean something for a, to a particular person for a particular reason. Another person, not so much, but, but they're, but they're both valid in that, in that framework. That's kind of where I go with the, um, with the dream thing. It's like, I'm a lot more, it's weird to say, you know, to be an expert and then to say, but you don't

have to do it the way I do. Well, I think my method works for me. And it does seem to, fair enough. And I think I'm on to something and I think imitating me in some respects is maybe a good way to go. But you may come up with new innovations. You may find a better twisty path that works for you, for your circumstance. I try to go with that meta level of stuff of like, you know, I've got my three-part process of, you know, first you just really got to listen and absorb it. The second part, you really got to go back through it and try and see it clearly for what it is, almost scientific method style. Let's get some measurements on this thing. What is it?

Analyze it. analyzing, yeah, from that. And then also the, the, the, the, what then kind of fades into the, getting an answer is following what might be most likely intuitive suggestions for possibilities. Like, what if we look at it this way? What if that meant this? And then you, you start to kind of, you almost, I, I think of it like, you take a block of marble and you're chipping it away and it could, there could be anything inside. And you, you, you feel your way through that process of, you know, what, what the marble tells you it wants to be in some ways. That's a new analogy to me. I don't even know if it fits very well, but that's kind of where I'm going at from here is,

okay, I don't have a, I don't have a shape I'm trying to reveal that I know before I start. And that's, that's a fascinating process for me too. That's why I look as you go. Yeah. Yeah, definitely. And then it's collaborative process. So like, do you see an eye, is that starting to look like an arm? Is that? Should we make that an arm? Okay. That makes sense. And then before you know, and then you, yeah, and then you get this, start getting the shape. It's okay, if it's male or female, is it a hero or a villain. Like different perspectives kind of help construct the what's what's lying beneath the rough surface of it. Definitely, definitely.

That's, and very holding and holding on very loosely, I'd say the right mindset going into it too. It's like, I say a lot of these things over and over again of like, I am not the expert. These, I consider myself almost kind of like a midwife. It's like I didn't make the baby. I didn't put it in you, but I'm going to help get it out if I can. And, you know, so it's a facilitator of that process more than the, the, the, the, the creator of it and the ultimate authority is like anything that i've told this to the folks that some of the

folks get frustrated say maybe arguing with like i was arguing with them on discord this morning so it's fresh on my mind um i i tell the folks there you know that interacting with me on my dream show is very different than having a debate with me because i'm not the authority i don't know anything i have ideas i got kind of a process that works but you as the dreamer are the authority i make a suggestion you feel it we're on to something you don't we're not it doesn't matter what i think what I feel. None of that. I'm just an invited guest having to look around inside your head with your with your participation and permission. I think that the point of that was I think that mindset is very important. It's like I'm not here to tell you what to believe. I can't. I can't approach that

already having an answer in my head or we don't get an answer that's relevant to you. It just, it just destroys the whole process. So I'd say that's why it may be one of the most important things. I agree. And I think it reminds me a lot of the the the archetype of healer or the shaman you know i'm not here to tell you you know the answer i'm here to guide you find the answer yourself in a way you know like i'm just like you say the facilitator guide as it were you know um come along i'm coming along with you in this experience, you know, I'm not taking you for the ride. I'm going on the ride with you. Definitely. Yeah, you're, you are taking me on the ride. That's, that's an interesting evolution, too,

is because if we think of it over time in some ways, um, the most ancient, say, maybe historical healers were the shamans and, and medicine men, et cetera, in various, various cultures. And then that kind of translated and then it was, it's very spiritual in that way. And then it was, it's very spiritual in that way. And then it translated in some ways into the more religious framework. And then it became priests. And they were the one you gave confession to and they gave counseling and all that different stuff. And they were the person to take your problems to and try and get them sorted out. And then somewhere along the line, you know, after we, what was Nietzsche said, you know, we killed God, that kind of thing.

Now the professional healers are the, it's in psychology. And each each had its own. And it's obviously not the same thing. and it's not a direct evolution from each part. And we still have priests today and we still have practicing shaman today. But I think all of us are trying to accomplish some of the same things, maybe through slightly different means and with different pre-existing assumptions about how the world works and what it is.

The worldviews as a bit. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And I think some of the greatest modern psychologists or people working in that medical, psychological framework are people like that. Young who said, look, it's all connected. We're all doing the same thing. And here's how to take the ancient wisdom and keep it fresh currently. As Peterson would say, it's kind of that resurrecting the father from the underworld type of thing. You don't want to just leave, leave what is useful

behind completely, because then you lose what is useful. You want to carry it forward in the right way that is useful to you today, revives the spirit of the father in the current generation, which then becomes the father to the next generation. I'm rambling. I was going somewhere with all that. Maybe that was a complete thought. I don't know. I'm with you on it.

You allow the past to feed the present which shapes the future. Oh, yeah. You know, all interconnected. There's this network that exists, this subterranean network that is vibrant, it's alive, it's constantly receiving and giving information. and tapping into that network and being a part of it is super revelatory. Yeah. I think that's a good way to put it.

I think that's where revelations come from. I was thinking about this the other day, too. I think I mentioned it to someone, but there was, so we got Archimedes, and he's sitting in his bathtub, and he has his eureka moment because he says, you know, when I get into the bathtub, the water level rises. We're getting the volume water displacement thing. body must take up space. I can see it in the water change. And he, and he's so blown away by

this sudden understanding that he goes running down the street naked shouting Eureka. That's the story for, for how true it is, who knows, but that, uh, and I was thinking the other day, like, what is that moment? Where does that understanding come from that sudden inspiration, the sudden connection, the light switch goes on, the dots are connected. Um, modern science has theories. psychology has theories about kind of how the brain works and how we build up to connecting dots logically or or through through different processes. But moment of inspiration seems completely mysterious.

Like no one actually knows what it means, how it happens, where it comes from. And I can say, and so you said the word revelatory. I think that is probably the best, the best possible understanding of a physical manifestation in a of revelation from God, if that makes sense.

It's like that moment of closing that gap. That's kind of my concept of one aspect of the universal source. The dots connect. Source energy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, the Greeks used to say, the muses have whispered in your ear. They inspire you. And okay, that's, so they're assuming a supernatural source for inspiration because that's

what it feels like. Where is this? It did not exist within me and now it does. Did I make that? How did I make that? No one knows. You know, and Socrates had his, his daemon or demon that he listened to, almost his inner voice, his conscience in a way. Yeah.

Yeah. And so we still, and still to this day, we have no idea how that happens like that. Well, that's magic in my estimation. That's, that's, that is a magical experience that we, that a lot of people take for granted as, as commonplace. Not really, I think not really understanding how magical it is and how impossible it is. because we honestly don't know how to cause inspiration to happen. Tell someone to write a song and they're like, I don't know how to do that.

But people do. They get inspired and then they do it. It happens often in the most randomest of ways, you know, just like I can plan for that to happen. I didn't sit down and write it out or plan it out. It just kind of was organic. Yeah. And sometimes we can,

sometimes the best we can do is say make space or for something like that to happen but not actually be able to cause it to happen. Certainly, it's almost like it cannot or will not happen without that space, but even if we're in that space, it's like, we just gotta wait around. It makes me think of just how dreams kind of work. You know what I mean?

Like when I talk about these dreams that I had, I mean, I'll do, I'll say like, I wasn't planning for thinking about these particular topics for me to dream about, but there they were. Yeah, that's a very magical thing, too. So I would say that's almost, you know, again, speaking on the more spooky woo, metaphysical, spiritual side of things, if someone were to say dreams come from God in that sense of like, here is something important you should or need to understand or have a look at. and whatever determines giving that to us, we can call that, you know,

universal source, God, whatever. I was going to something like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but we don't, but we almost, yeah, and then again, there's some people who say they can program their dreams. If I want to have a specific type of lucid dream,

I can determine the elements and it will happen. Fair enough. I don't understand that process either. And I think there's probably something biologically, constitutionally, going on with them where they have access to a specific kind of ability that maybe almost nobody does. I think the number of people who lose a dream is very small. It's not unheard of, certainly not uncommon in that regard, but it's very rare at the same time.

Yeah, I was going somewhere with that too. I just peaked at the clock. I forgot it's too much fun talking to you. We lose track of time. I don't want to run out of time to do the dream thing. So do you want to jump into that? Sure. Benjamin the Dream Wizard wants to help you pierce the veil of night and shine the light of understanding upon the mystery of dreams. Every episode of his DREAMscapes program features real dreamers, gifted with rare insight into their nocturnal visions.

New DREAMscape's episodes appear every week on YouTube, Rumble, Odyssey, and other video hosting platforms, as well as free audiobooks, highlighting the psychological principles which inform our dream experience and much, much more. To join the Wizard as a guest, reach out across more than a dozen social media platforms, and through the contact page at Benjamin the Dream Wizard.com, where you will also find the Wizard's growing catalog of historical dream literature, available on Amazon, featuring the wisdom and wonder of exploration into the world of dreams over the past 2,000 years.

That's Benjamin the Dream Wizard on you. YouTube and at Benjamin the DreamWizard.com. 51 minutes. So, yeah, go for it. Okay. So, as best as I can recall, this, what I'm about to tell you, happened in the middle of the night, the middle of the week. I think it was a Wednesday, Wednesday morning, right? But in the dark hours of Wednesday.

So go to bed Tuesday night, wake up Wednesday morning. the dreams happened somewhere in that window but I don't think it was the Tuesday night frame time frame I think it was the Wednesday morning time frame so after midnight and they were dreams of death specifically my death and I dreamed one dream woke up from it went back to sleep and then had another dream of death that I violently, I'd say, woke myself up out of. And I'd say violently because the second dream I was, I woke myself up out of sleep by screaming. Okay. So backing up, the first dream was a dream of death in the sense of combat, right? I was in a fight to the death.

And I was positioned to. against two combatants. It was a fist fight, so it wasn't like weapons were employed. It was like hand-to-hand combat, but without weapons. And didn't die, but I was, again, pitted against two opponents, so I was, like, out-maned in that way, you know, two against one kind of thing. And as best as I can recall, the, the fight was, like, I was in this fight and everything that I was given, everything that I was giving, I should say, was giving it my all. And, you know, I remember in the dream, like, every blow that I ended, wasn't, there was, there was, like, little to no reaction on the persons that I was.

delivering those attacks to you know what i mean so they were like whatever there was no result of me hitting them or attacking them that that that i could feel that they were being impacted by you know and uh the dream kind of ended abruptly in the sense that i don't remember there being any end result to it like there was no victor at the end like i didn't emerge victorious, I wasn't defeated, it just kind of ended abruptly. And so that was the first time I woke up, you know. Then go back to sleep, and then the next dream that I had was very different. The second dream was my death, not in the sense of fighting to the death, it was more like an execution.

and that one was a bit more specific in that I was being chased down or no not chased down I was being followed like I'm in this field for this open area I don't it wasn't like a grassy field or a wooded field I was just it was like an open flat area I don't remember there being any buildings or trees or anything, it was just kind of like this open landscape. And this person had a gun, a rifle. And it was like run, rabbit run, you know, kind of like just go.

And I'm zigzagging in this open landscape and this person with the rifle is like following me, you know? And so what I'm trying to do in this dream is predict when they're going to pull the trigger on me. It was basically like, just run until I shoot you.

And I remember stopping, like doing this like zigzagging motion again trying to predict and they're going to pull the trigger. I had, I have one memory of the dream where I was running and looking back and I stopped and I

like kind of do this like fake movement where I'm going this way but then I fake and I go that way and he fires at me. And I remember like seeing this like you know, the bullet rush past me. And it was at that moment that I become really frantic in my dream and I just kind of lose a bit of my control.

And I'm like running all over the place and, you know, and I go, no, no, no, no, no, no. And that's that's what woke me up from the dream. Me in my dream screaming, no, no, no, no, no, I woke myself up because I woke up out of my dream and I'm screaming. know, right? In real life, in my consciousness. And so, you know, I'm laying there in the bed going, how was that? And so that was a, that was, that was the, that was the, that was the dream experience. Yeah.

First one was me fighting to the death and then the next dream, you know, again, two back-to-back dreams about my death. But the second one was like an execution. where you're just like, well, you're going to die and we're going to end you, but let's play with you a bit along the way kind of thing. Yeah, good stuff, good stuff. Got them both here, I think. We'll do that real quick, you know, kind of going back through them a little bit.

I think there's a good chance there related, at least one, at least the second one to the first in that sense, and maybe not the first. What am I trying to say? it's the the second one may have been building on the first in a way but i don't think the first was a set up for the second intentionally it's like the first one kind of happened on its own and then some additional thoughts came that put something in a different perspective but it's very typical and it's not it's not always the case but it is very typical that dreams do link if you have two separate ones there's some some connecting link between them um because you're going into the second one

after having experienced the first. So, so, so, so, even if it doesn't follow from, it is connected to in, in that sense. And especially when they both deal with, you know, fighting and, and, and there's something about fighting and, and fighting is, is very often linked to, you know, risk of injury or death in that kind of way. So there's at least that tenuous connection. Again, these are my, the preliminary thoughts could be wrong, but it feels, it feels like the right direction to go with it. Um, if it makes sense. Do you? but we don't know yet, of course. So what do we got here?

In the first one, you've got two opponents, and you're in a physical altercation with them, and there's no weapons, just a fist fight. Any idea of the physical space it was in, you know, like the second one was in a field. The first one was on a street, in a building? Best that I can recall, It was, you know, neutral ground.

Like, it wasn't in a house, a warehouse, a field. Like, don't remember much about the landscape. There were no spectators. It wasn't like a cage match, you know what I mean, where, like, people are watching. It's not that I can, not that I can recall. I would just kind of indoors, outdoors maybe is probably the closest that I can get to. the environment or the landscape. I think

felt more like indoors. I mean, I don't remember seeing sky or an open view of the land. You know what I mean? I felt like I was in a confined space, at least something with a roof, but beyond that,

nothing specific that I can call. Okay. Good deal. Yeah. And then other environmental cues would pop up like did you ever happen to get knocked down and what you did was push yourself up and it was grass that kind of a thing but it wasn't you certainly you didn't have that experience of feels and that's good too like volunteering a lot of good information in terms of it just out of nowhere popped the phrase neutral ground very interesting way to phrase it not neutral ground is

not exactly a physical description of a location it's a different concept but that you just you thought it and you said it that's perfect there's i think there's something in there with that with that phrase too i think puts context to something. Not sure what yet, but I think that's, I heard that. I'm like, oh yeah,

let's write that down. Yeah, and then volunteering the idea of, indoors, outdoors, like where would I even put it? I didn't even think to ask that. That's brilliant.

And that may make a difference too in terms like, and again, we're not, I was going, going with stuff. Who knows? But there is a different experience to say,

having a fight in a confined space versus a fight in a wide, open space. There's a more, it speaks to the idea of the struggle, whatever it is, being contained to a specific concept or location in a way, but like metaphysical location of, it's not a fight about everything. It doesn't range all over hill and dale and into space and to the bottom of the ocean. That would be an interesting dream as well, and that would mean something completely different if you were, I had this fight and it lasted forever. ever and we fought everywhere.

That's a more universal idea of I'm struggling against something very big. So what you're struggling with is maybe something very small. Small, not in the terms of importance, but small more as concentrated. Concentrated, like contained a very delineated specificity or more of a specific type of thing rather than a generalized thing. And that can be, you know, and I'm drawn all this from, was it indoors or outdoors? I think it was indoors. Interesting.

That's just where my brain went with that. Okay, so it's not big. It's small. It's a thing. We can kind of encapsulate. If we can get close to it, who knows, of course. You were in, so as much as it maybe was, you know, not or whatever on neutral, neutral ground, so to speak.

But it was, it was also an unfair fight. I mean, you were not matched, evenly matched against one of opponent and you were unsure. You're definitely being, you're struggling against the odds, so to speak, and in quite a literal manifestation of that. 2V1 is against, the odds are against you. Because it's not one view. That would be balanced odds.

You know, the odds would be in your favor if it was you and a partner versus the other guy. It's like, well, of course, we're going to kick his ass. And maybe he deserves it. Who knows? So one of the first things I, uh, no, okay. And then, um, the nature of the combat was that, that not only were you outmanned, the odds were, you know, struggling against the odds,

but your blows, the physical contact you were making was, was ineffective. They were not reacting to it as if receiving damage and feeling pain. So there was kind of an unreactive or ineffective. So whatever you were doing to fight this struggle was not succeeding. in, you know, not only were you outmanned, you were underpowered in a way. Is that, that's all kind of making sense? Yeah. Yeah.

It was like everything that I was giving was, you know, non-reactive or, you know. Yeah. For sure. Brushing a fly off, you, whatever. Yeah. And then it is interesting. Just frustrating. That you did not show yourself to yourself losing.

or being triumphant. It was indeterminate. So the, in some ways the battle didn't end or or or or or or it ended unresolved in a way. So, okay, if we go, if we go with all that and the kind of meta narrative I'm putting together in my

head is the, you know, it's also important. You said, you know, there's no spectator. So this is not, it's not a public battle,

so to speak, maybe. So where I'm going with this is, I think what it seems to suggest is something about being undecided on something. Where am I going with that? It is an internal space, and I'm thinking internal to you. You're not fighting something external. You're having a battle, in essence, with yourself.

And it's neutral. It's not neutral ground. You're saying that's not the way to conceptual. it. But, um, so inside of yourself would also not be neutral ground in that way. But it's more like, I don't think you're neutral on the subject. Whatever it is you're trying to work through, whatever challenge it is you're facing. It's, it's meaningful to you in, in that way. So you said, it's not neutral ground. It's like, this is not something I don't, I consider unimportance or something I don't care about. Um, and it's also, yeah, not a spectator. And it's also, yeah, not a

spectator sport. This is not something you're doing for the sake of public appearance. You're not putting on a show for anybody. You're not there to be judged by anyone else. So these are all concepts that seem to be aligning in my mind, suggestions for, for why this would be more of an internal conceptual consideration, something you're trying to work through. You've got, unbalanced odds. You've got these enemies in a way, combatants. You actually. You actually you didn't say they were evil villains you didn't say they were assailants they you kind of picked the word combatant so there's a combat one this is that's why i've been conceptualizing it as a struggle there wasn't nobody there that i knew like i didn't recognize

who i was pitted against you know yeah you weren't fighting your dad your brother you weren't fighting brad pit or whoever you know right yeah yeah which i throw him in there because fight club you know uh right right or or troy he was good in both of those um one and so we're we going with that. It's like there's a part of you that maybe feels outnumbered, overwhelmed. Overwhelmed, maybe is the right word, like a definitely like what you're fighting against has the upper hand in some way. It's got at least the visual representation of being twice as, it has twice as much manpower compared to you, so to speak. And so far what you've been doing to attempt to resolve it doesn't seem to be having the effect you want.

like you're punching against this thing that is you're in combat with is not, it's not showing the results you want. You're not defeating the foe, this, this overwhelming force. And it wasn't, it's interesting that it wasn't, um, 10 men or a thousand,

uh, you know, and then it wasn't, um, it wasn't a thousand cockroaches in the shape of a man. I mean, that would be, also a completely different thing.

So it's very, uh, it's just, it's just people, just persons that are, um, but, but just that,

that bare minimum of, of, of, of, you know, I'm outnumbered, overwhelmed in a way, put out a disadvantage. And the,

the, the, the, the fight that I'm putting up is not proving effective thus far. Um, or was I going with that? It's interesting.

Go ahead. Some of the things that you're talking about, um, because again, it was, like it was a fight to the death, right? It was in the dream, it was like, no, you know, two men enter, one man leave, right?

Like, it was, it was to the death. Like, that was, I remember that part of it. It was a fight to the death, but it didn't result in anyone's death. And it was, like, some of the things I'm thinking of when you are talking, I'm like, yeah, it's even about death to begin with. fighting against something that you aren't having an impact on, right? Why are you putting this, are you even fighting to begin with? Should this even be a fight you are part of, right?

Why fight it? I go into it with the warlike or militant mentality. Maybe this needs to be addressed in another way because the combative side of it is not, doing anything. It's not making the impact. Again, just talking out loud, thinking out loud. No, I think all these things are valid. Like, that's honestly, I ramble until you go, wow, I'm having thoughts, man. Let me tell you. Let me tell you what I'm thinking. It's perfect. One thing I would say is that very often dreams of death have nothing to do with physical death.

Like, we're not actually afraid of dying as much. Death is almost always not always not always depends on the individual, but more likely to be perhaps a metaphor for change in some ways. That's a very broad category, but we narrow it down a little bit. There's something we do, speaking of Peterson's got him on the brain lately, he's pretty famously said that, you know, why do we have the capacity for imagination from an evolutionary standpoint? So our ideas can die so that we don't, so that we don't have to. We can let our, we can have a say, construct a thought experiment. What if I attack this saber tooth tiger head on? Well, in my imagination, he's bigger, stronger, faster.

He's going to kill me. Maybe I let that idea die. We kill that idea. I reject that as an idea that is not likely to succeed. What if I hide in the tree and I wait for him to pass by? What if I put a piece of meat down there? And while he's eating it, then I jump on him. get him from behind. Now that idea, I might live. And so I think that's what we do a lot.

Like when we're having, say, an internal, and that's, I think this is what this is saying, something along these lines, but like an internal struggle against something that seems like it's more powerful than us for whatever reason. And we're being ineffective so far. Well, one of you is going to die in one, one concept of yourself. One, what am I trying to say? one one belief about what is good or true or right is going to prevail over the other it's whenever we have to make up our mind about a decision that well there's i go left or right i can't go both and if we go left we let the idea of going right die i've chosen not to take that path so there's something very much in it to my understanding or it feels right in this in

this regard could be way off of course but that the fight to the death is like one only one version of myself in a way is going to come out of this arena. And right now it seems like the me that I think is me is not effectively dealing with this other thing that might defeat me. And it's interesting that you, you were not a passive observer watching two other people fight, but you are engaged in this fight against some. So there's something you're, I don't know if it's resisting is the idea or something you don't want or think you don't want or an answer that you wish you could.

Conflict in a way. Yeah, in some ways an idea that, what is it? it's not being in denial, but it's almost like, it's almost like being in denial. That's close, but it's not, that's not the right idea. It's like when we have a difficult truth, we need to accept. And in order to accept that difficult truth, we have to let our old self-concept die. Oh, that's not who I am anymore because now I'm, now I actually do something different. And that different way of interacting with the world or understanding it is more powerful than the old way.

and it can be hard to let go of old days. It's not effective. Yeah, like this part of me, this, the way that I'm dealing with this is ineffective, dealing with it in that way. Yeah, and we haven't said anything about what this is. And I'm not even sure if the, if the dream, it's maybe the second part of the dream, we'll say, or the connected second dream, which I think is independent, might say something more in that regard.

But sometimes that's as close as I can get. Well, well, now, I guess this is where I turn it back over to the guest and say, Now that we've kind of conceptualized it that way, have you been stuck on the horns of a dilemma, so to speak, and you need to make a decision about how to approach something? And one of the options is less desirable, but appears like it might be necessary. It's kind of where I'm going with that. More than just one. More than what comes to my mind. Yeah.

Like there's a lot of it. There's a lot of that sort of thing that I think has just. surfaced lately. Stuff going on in my life. Stuff close to me. No. Gotcha. Emily.

Mortality. I mean, again, it was just really interesting that the two dreams were connected in a way with the concept of death or the ending of something. Right. But I realize, especially in my particular worldviews of things, is that death is an end. It is a transition. It is a change. It is a continuation. of something else

in a different form. We got to close this chapter of the book for the next chapter to continue. Oh yeah. And battling with that battling with those concepts,

right, whether it is a physical death, right? The person or persons who have passed, like I mean, my father died this year. I remember since you and I've spoken if we've talked about that

or if that came up but you know my father died this year there's other family related events that have happened that you know you can't help but be faced with that mortality

um oh yeah aside from that just other other things you know um community-based events or or things that you're involved in or that i'm involved in rather that um you know do you go do you take this angle with it or do you take that angle with it and trying to figure out like the right way going about it and that and that that that sort of conflict of interest maybe or or you know this is a year for me at least of of of of of of of a

really big changes. Things that have already happened that have changed me and people around me, and also things to come that are going to be changing me and others. So I think because that's where my focus has been, maybe subconsciously, there's this, like, coming up to the surface of, like, well, now it's time to face it. Yeah, this might have been just the right time

Or you had a thought previous In that day at one point Which was like I'm not gonna be able to put this off for too much longer And then in the dream it's like what am I We're getting down to the wire now What is what is the representation of that idea of I'm in a fight I can't avoid anymore Yeah, very much so And I thought I saw most and then the dog distracted me

And put them down with the Oh, it's just just the broader observation nothing will make you, nothing will make man confront his own mortality more than the death of his own father. It's like this person who was here before I existed is now gone from old age, ill health, and that will be me someday. That is now, that is the most visceral, physical representation of that self-mortality possible, I think. You know, and then some kids confront that very early. I think, I don't think she'd mind me saying so. My mom lost, her mother to breast cancer when she was 16, I think.

And so that changed. Yeah, I mean, talk about confronting that very young, losing a, losing a parent like that. And it's nothing like, you know, we lose, we lose touch with friends. We move to a new town or we, we have a pet die. And that's a way to confront it. But it's something else when it's our parents. I mean, I'm not looking forward to that myself. I'm unfortunate they're both still alive, but maybe not for much longer.

I mean, we got maybe 10, 20 years if they're lucky and me. but that's not that long. That's inevitable. Yeah, no, and it is too. And that's an interesting thing, too. It's like we can rationalize it in some ways saying, oh, I mean, it'll happen someday. And then it does, you know, like, I wasn't ready for this. I don't know that anyone.

There's no way to prepare. I don't think anyone can be. No. Well, the other thought I had before I lose it is, isn't it nice to be a person who cares about doing the right thing? Because that means we get to enjoy the pain of uncertainty and worrying about whether we're doing the right thing. That's one of those ironic situations that, you know, terrible people, terrible people who don't give a shit, they don't have the anxiety of making good decisions.

They just do whatever the fuck they want. So it's a, yeah, that's unfortunately. I have to laugh at that kind of stuff because, uh, of course, of course we're screwed for being good people. Why wouldn't we? Why wouldn't we be? Yeah. Um, right. Yep.

Well, I think that's, um, I think it might be as much as we can get out of that first one. And it is fantastic and fascinating that it's that it's both of these are, as you said, definitely right off the bat, very much associated with mortality, death, the idea of definitely transformative change. And then now I've got to get this back from the cat. Here we go. Cici Boy, speaking of heading for the Great Beyond, this little guy's been losing weight. This is Cici. He's, I always expect to wake up in the morning and he's just, he doesn't wake up anymore. the end, the last nap, they? Yeah, I'm really hoping for his sake, it just kind of, he just goes to

sleep at some point. You don't have to hang on, buddy. You don't have to hang on. He said a good life. I mean, he's like 12, 14, something like that. It's not like he's not a kitten. We actually used to have his brother as well. We called him Ninja. He was a little freak. He was born with seven nipples. I think they usually have eight. He had an odd number, so he was genetically deformed anyway. And then I think he had an undescended testicle. And then he developed urinary crystals at one point and that was he was only seven so this was like at least seven or eight years ago we had to let him go um but this is his brother and he lived a lot longer so that's that's my story right let's talk about death yeah right on the topic we're on the topic though he share my role with it right

share my struggles now you want to get back up he does he wanted to get down and drink some water now he wants to get back up come here come here we've got a lot of elderly animals no i'm not it's not to play. Not right now. Not right now. We got, we got stuff to do. Um, what are we doing here? So the second one was in your impression of it was I'm here to be killed. This is an execution. This is not a fight, not even remotely a fair fight. I'm being pursued by something that is, so it's like the unavoidable inevitability of the approach of something final. It's going, this is going to happen. What are you doing? Come here. come here you cannot bark you cannot bark when i'm on stream okay you want to run around

there you go get comfy they are value added content but man it's absolutely so hard it's so hard to just stay focused watching how he's going to get down again okay go just quit barking all day he's quiet he's doing his own thing i get i started recording he's got to have his say um it is cute though this is the kind of dog, it's a Maltese that they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they, they make them dance in their hind legs in the circus, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah. Easy cutie. Um, so an unavoidable confrontation. And this one is out of doors. Uh, there's, at the very least, a, a, a wide open field. So, you've got a lot of maneuverability. You've got a lot of places you can go. You've also got no places you can hide. You are not dodging around corners. You're not going to lose them. in the, you know, in the maze of, of, of, of a city or anything like that. No buildings, no trees. Literally nowhere to hide.

This, this is, this thing is coming for you. And it's, it's gunning for you in that way. That's the way I can describe it. Have you ever seen the movie? I think it was a Bruce Willis movie. I think it was called the Jackal. I did not see that one. No.

It's an older movie, but Bruce Willis is in it. And Jack Black is in it for this particular scene. But if you want to go back and like, just. I don't know. It's probably a clip on YouTube you can probably find, but like Jackal with Bruce Willis and Jack Black. That's the closest thing. So anybody, your listeners or viewers that know what I'm talking about. Was there a scene in that where someone's trying to run away and there's zigzagging and someone's shooting at him? Jack Black provides Bruce Willis, who's an assassin known as the Jackal in this movie, this firearm that is like a computer driven, like it's got this like joystick that he uses. and he basically is like Jack Black, he tells him, he's like, go out there and run it.

He wants to test the computer on how it follows him. So he's like running and zigzagging all around in this field. And it's like a massive thing. It's like a 50 caliber like, geez. Round is just excessive. Yeah, you get hit by it. You just vaporized. Yeah, it basically vaporizes Jack Black.

Like blows him in half is what the thing ends up coming out to. So, but yeah, it's, it's kind of like that where it was a scene where he's like, just run. I want to see how this thing goes and then, you know, hold this apple and let me shoot the apple. And then he ends up, you know, wow. Paparize in Jack Black. He's like, well, I guess we're not quite calibrated yet. Or it's very like psychopathic. His character was very psychopathic.

But that's the reason why I mentioned it was like the scene in the dream was very reminiscent of that, but on a different scale. So it opened space, no obstacles, nothing for me to hide behind. I just had to use my agility to try and dodge the bullet, the literal bullet. Gotcha. And you did. And you're also trying to use some strategy of your own. Like you do kind of a fake move to like, what if I do this? What if this is this going to help me?

You're not, so you're not quite passive. and it was there was when the first shot was fired and maybe the only shot that whizzed past you that was the only shot that was fired as far as you can ask as I can recall yeah there was only yep and then that's where it really hit hit home in a way of like oh my god this is happening

and then you panic and you're like no no no no no no no you wake yourself up that's kind of the sequence of events gotcha yeah so it's it's a very short scene it's it's it's got um it's got the setup it's got a little bit of action going on in it and it's got a kind of an inflection point where where things go from maybe hopeful to more and it wasn't it wasn't a fatalistic feeling you had it wasn't uh i guess i'm going to die so you stop running and just let him take the next shot you're like no this is if i'm trying to avoid it yeah yeah if i'm um

what is it what is it you you realized it was serious and decided it was time to get serious that's not the right way to put it i was trying to give myself every chance that i could for sure not get shot you know what i mean like i'm not just going to like stand there and let him shoot me i was like let me let me try to get away let me do anything that i can to prevent this thing from happening yeah yeah and it's interesting at the very end that you kind of described it as you became frantic. And I wrote down, you know, lose control or lost control. We, when we panic, we do lose a bit of a rationality and it's more animal instinct takes over. And we, what am I trying to say?

There's a, there's a principle that we used to get taught in, in the psychiatric hospital when, when, in, in regards to. regards to restraint training. You know, every now and again, we got to engage with someone who's out of control for their safety or some of the safety people around them. We have to physically intervene. It's like extreme necessity only, you know, we've changed a lot. You know, we say we, but the psychiatric profession used to be a lot more, uh, have a lot lower standards for when physical interventions were justified and except more hands on,

been more hands on in the past. And now this is like last resort, extreme last resort. We do anything we possibly can't. But you get into some situations, can't be helped. This is happening. What they make sure to impress upon us. And it's been shown, I guess, through testing and whatnot. So it's all verified like studies show.

The person, people in a conflict situation lose about, I think it's 30 IQ points. And we go from, you know, very rational, reasonable, calm, understanding, tolerant people to panicky animals. pretty quick. And it's almost instantaneous that IQ drop. And it happens along with the physiological responses of the heart rate goes up, the anxiety, the leg shake, the intense sense of dread or fear and and bam, our brains, uh, your brains start to shut down. Um, and they made sure to impress upon us. It's not just the patient that this is happening to. It is also you, the staff. You are not immune to this. You were in a confrontation. You are losing IQ points, slow down, follow the procedures, take it's, you know, one person talking at a time,

a flight takes over. Yeah, yeah. So we've got, and all of this came to my mind when you're talking about that, that moment of losing control where it's like this is, I'm in a real fight here. My life is suddenly the, suddenly it hits home how mortal I am and this, connecting it back a little bit to that thing. I'm like, wow, if he, if that bullet hits me, I'm dead. This is happening.

This is, this is a lot more real than I thought it was. And it, that bullet was in past is, is. And even if it's an image drawn from a movie, the field and the shooting and the running and the zigzagging, it doesn't matter. Even if it's the classic film trope of the bullet whizzes past and the hero goes, shoot, someone's shooting at me. Man, I better get into cover. That moments, it's universal of the human condition. We get sudden wake-up calls like, this is serious. It's happening.

I, the only thing I can think of, and it feels right. And it's a lack of imagination, if I'm wrong, but it's an escalation. maybe compared to the last dream. And I think this is why I think it's built upon or connected to or informed by the first dream experience. So you have this way of like, it's like I'm in a fist fight against, against the odds. And I'm resisting what I think might be the irresistible. Certainly what I'm doing to resist.

It doesn't seem. I was trying to encapsulate it in, in another way earlier, where it's like nobody changes anything until what they're doing isn't working in. anymore. You know, very few people, now some people are driven to seek change. And fair enough, there's a lot of us are novelty seekers. We just change things. I want to have something. I want to eat at a different restaurant for dinner tonight. That's something kind of change. I mean, it's like we establish patterns and belief systems and ways of doing things that are functional until we are confronted with the fact that this isn't working. It's kind of what makes people say want to

quit drinking alcohol. It was fun being an alcoholic up to a certain point where you go, wow, this is just ruining my life. And then people decide to make a change when it's not working anymore. So there's some kind of forced changes we have in our life when we're confronted with situations where we realize that what we're doing isn't working anymore or just through no fault of our own, we have to adapt to a new situation. It happens all the time. But that means letting go of our old self. We have to become someone new, even if we're the same person technically and even if we carry over most of our skills. There's a way of interacting with the world that has to be let go of. And so where am I going with all this? I'm thinking you conceptualized it first as kind of a

struggle against something you didn't want to confront. And in the second one, it feels like in essence reinforcing that message in a way of saying, I'm pretty much, I'm not happy about it, but I think I'm going to be forced to change. This, this me, this me is the inevitability. The inevitability of this thing coming. And you're really maybe. Maybe. scared of it. I mean, to the point of like, feeling a, some people run away from changing themselves as much as they would run away from literally being stabbed. The nature of the change is such that it is too painful or objectionable. What's being asked of them demanded by the adaptations being demanded is so, you want to reject it so badly that it feels like a death is kind of

It feels like a, feels like you're going to be murdered rather than sacrificing something voluntarily. Right. I just rambled a whole bunch of stuff. And I don't know if you have any thoughts. I want to stop there. Yeah. I don't know that, you know, again, with the, with the, so much of what I've been thinking

about this year and so much of what I've experienced this year up to this point and what I'm going to be experiencing throughout the year involves radical change or how. has involved radical change, you know, again, like loss and literal death and whatnot. But some of that is not physical, it's like, whether it's psychological. When I say death, like not a physical death, but a metaphysical. Yeah. Or psychological change, you know, and it's like you can't, what's also an interesting thing to add to this part, was that I've talked to other people, too, about this, right?

People within my circle, things that have, people that have similar or comparable worldviews as mine. You brought this. I do. I lean on that community, you know, like, hey, do you think about this, right? You brought this dream to them before me? Mm-hmm. Okay, good, good.

I'm very curious. Yeah. I'm glad you didn't tell me anything that they said before we went into it. Yeah, I wanted to kind of leave that part to the end, just to not have it influence the thing. It was like there was references or recollections, I should say, of things that I had done around this time of year, several years ago, a couple years ago. Things that I had involved in with my spirituality, my spiritual practices, religious practices, that are close to just dark stuff. You know, dark stuff, death, you know, literal death.

One particular was a really near and dear friend of mine. You know, his father died Halloween two years ago. Wow, yeah. Leading up to that, though, he, like, my friend came to me, and he's like, there's anything that you can do to intervene with that. this inevitability. He came to me and he was like, can you stop it? What kind of thing? And I'm like, I can't stop it, but I'll do what I can. You know, and I, I tapped into certain aspects of my belief that I was kind of new to at the time, you know, and I, I invoked certain elements in my belief that I, that are very fringe.

You know, you don't do this stuff on the day-to-day basis. These are like kind of really like an urgent need has come up, right? And there were two components included in what I did to two lives, his dad's life and the life of my unborn child. And, you know, so it was like, it was a ritual for me, you know, to kind of offer the life of my unborn child in exchange for the life of his father. Wow. You know, don't take him, take this, have this instead of that. And that was one of the biggest things that was revealed when I spoke to him the other day about it. He's like, you fought, you know, the part of the dream sequences, right? The two, you know, pit it against one, you know, two against one sort of thing.

It's like those two lives, you know. You didn't get, you didn't get to keep the one. You didn't get to have the one yourself, you're unborn, and then I didn't get to keep him. That inevitability still happened, you know? And maybe it was like a visceral reminder in a way of like, hey, this happened around this time of year a couple years ago. We're in a season of change, the autumnal equinox, right,

when we and night are of equal length, but now we're transitioning, now we're changing into this time of change, of darkness, of calm, let's rest, let's go dormant, let's recharge, let's regroup, let's rejuvenate, right? We're not, it's not go, go, go, it's now let's calm down. But it happened all in the same time of year a couple of years ago, and maybe that was just, again, like a visceral realization of,

you can't you can do everything you possibly can to try and bargain with certain aspects of life and death but there's ultimately this inevitable result that you are just once you're there you're there and it's you can't escape it

you can dodge it you can try to avoid it you can do all the things that you think you can do to delay it and post post own it, but ultimately it's going to arrive. And that's a tough thing to face.

It is. For a lot of people. It's a tough it's gruesome. You know, like with my dad, you know, like, we knew it was going to happen. I mean, obviously it's always going to happen. But again, it kind of goes back to that. Like, you can't you know what's going to happen, but when it does happen, it's still a catastrophic

blow. Oh, yeah. You know, like, you can't prepare for it. You can't. No. You can do everything you think you can do to, to prepare for. But when it, when it, when it does come, it's like, that's the nail in the coffin, baby. That's the, yeah. And the irreversibility.

And the ear. The permanence of it, the irreversibility. I mean, when it's just an idea that you can choose not to think about it sometimes. Once it's happened, it's real forever. Yeah. Yeah. That's a thing. When you're literally staring down that barrel.

Oh, yeah. And I did my dream. Like, I mean, I'm staring down this barrel. I know. That's a great metaphor, too. Yeah. Shut up. You crazy.

The bullet whizzes past you. Oh, you dodged it. You postponed it. Yeah, briefly. It's inevitable. Eventually it's going to get you. And you put together some things that I hadn't even thought of. And so I appreciate and respect and have an awareness of the changing seasons, but not the same way that someone who's maybe in your position where it's more deeply meaningful in a spiritual level.

And it's definitely, this is the period of, say, decline into the underworld in a way or the, the leaves fall off the trees and we have skeletal fingers raking the sky and the and you know during during this period where we're further away from the sun says basically winter is very strongly associated with death and so if we're in a period heading towards an inevitable cycle before rebirth this will bring strongly to mind well what else have I say lost what other inevitable things just like winter is always coming what other things have have I been have I had to endure that we're just, you know, I didn't want it,

but there was nothing I could do to stop it because this life. So, yeah, that's very, that's very powerful. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, stuff with my family right now, like my wife, her mom is, is getting up in years. You know what I mean? And there's been things going on with her that have really brought mortality to light, you know. She was in the hospital for a week.

Oh, yeah. due to some infections and she had a fall. And there was like just a lot of things about again, like the physical mortality, physical death that you can't ignore when things like that happen. It's like, you know, we don't like to talk about it. We don't like to think about it. But it's going to happen, you know. And as much as you may want to fight it or as much as you do all that you can to

prevent it or postpone it I mean it's going to happen and in some ways I'm like almost in a way forced to think for me at least change my perspective or to retrain my perspective in a way

reprogram myself in a way like stop fighting it you can't avoid it you can dodge it you can you know I mean postpone it but like it's inevitable like be ready for it like be as ready as you possibly can be Don't yeah those blows everything that you Give to Pose it doesn't matter

There's no impact there it doesn't do anything It can't possibly work it just wears you out in the process That that is some some part of the benefit to certain kinds of radical acceptance Of course don't accept bad things that you can change or prevent Very different thing but things that are things that are gonna happen It's almost like pan What am I trying to say? It's like it's not just wasted effort.

It's wasted suffering to fight against the inevitable in some ways. It's like you can suffer now and later or you can just suffer later because later is the later suffering is going to happen anyway. So why torture yourself to no purpose currently? It's easier said than done sometimes. Absolutely. I'd love to keep going. I'm running out of time. I'm sorry.

We got to. Also good. But I wanted to say. Well, thank you. But I wanted to say. sure if there was anything we didn't address any small portion that you thought we we should we should focus on i think we did a good job but i always leave it to the dreamer to if they have any more questions for me you know no and i think i think everything that you were able to

contribute uh is is of great value and it's it's it's going to help me continue to process it because this is kind of one of those things that i'm not going to um i'm not going to put it to bed anytime really soon yeah yeah not and certainly not in one conversation with me, but if I can be a piece of the puzzle that makes it easier to... Exactly. ...to successfully deal with whatever you're going through, then I always appreciate that opportunity.

So, yeah. Well, I'll just say then we'll do the wrapping it up thing here and I'll look at my notes. I'll say to everybody out there in YouTube land and beyond. This has been our friend Jesse Atherfagan from the Midgard Musings, or host of Midgard Musings. Link in the description below, of course. highly recommended, uh, subscribe to, to the channel.

Uh, for my part, would you kindly like, share, subscribe to tell your friends, always need more volunteer dreamers, viewers for the game streams, which is why I got to go tonight. I got one coming up at 5 p.m. so, um, and, uh, 16, currently available works of historical dream literature, the most recent dreams in their meanings by Horace G. Hutchinson, all this and more at Benjamin the Dreamwizard.com, full list of the books, uh, MP3 downloads of this very podcast. Uh, also Benjamin the Dreamwizard. dot locals.com trying to build a community there. That's where I'd prefer to receive any sustaining donations. Please and thank you. Once again, Jesse, good to talk to you.

Great to be here. Thanks again for having me, Ben. Right on. And everybody out there, thanks for listening.