Drinking Wine and Talking Shit - S2E3: Incels and Women with a Voice, sweetening the bitter with a Gartissier Champagne

Episode Date: April 26, 2025

In this crucial episode we tackle the challenging topic of incels and the vital importance of women taking up space in a world that often pushes back. We explore the origins of the incel movement, its disturbing evolution into online communities fuelled by misogyny, and the real-world concerns highlighted by UK government research and Prevent Programme referrals.We discuss the key characteristics of incel communities, the dangerous narratives they promote (as sometimes seen in documentaries like the Channel 4 documentary on Incels and men hating women), and the impact of online misogyny on women who dare to speak up. Have you ever been made to feel "too loud" or "too much"? We get it.We reflect on the themes of online radicalization, also potentially relevant to discussions around shows like Netflix's Accused, and emphasize the power of community and self-care.Join us for an educational and thought-provoking discussion, raising a glass of Gartissier Champagne to women who refuse to be silenced.Episode Highlights:What exactly is an incel and how has the movement changed?Understanding the core misogynistic beliefs within incel communities.UK-specific data and the concerning rise in incel-related issues.The impact of online hate and why women with a voice are often targets.Why taking up space – in all its forms – is a powerful act of resistance.Practical tips for staying safe and empowered online.Mentioned: The Channel 4 documentary: The Secret World of Incels: UNTOLDYouTube documentary: Britain's Anti-Feminist Men | Reggie Yates ExtremeNetflix's TV show: Episode 1:  Accused (violence and incel behaviour related) Episode Length: Approx. 30 mins. Target Audience: Women aged 25–45 interested in career, social dynamics, and personal development.#Incels #Misogyny #WomensEmpowerment #TakeUpSpace #OnlineHate #FeministPodcast #[Podcast Name] #PreventProgramme #Channel4 #NetflixAccused🔗 https://open.spotify.com/show/5NULMnGybz1lp1ZW3eHSxi?si=d938f530989f40a2  Find us on Instagram and Tiktok @DWTS_Shit. And you can follow @only_aamy & sadie.cubitt on Instagram too. Let's laugh with wine together!

Hi Amy, how are you? Hi Sadie, I'm very good, thank you. Looking forward to filming this new episode, especially as you've chosen the topic this week, haven't you? Yes I have. I haven't been allowed to do any research about it. So also I was really looking forward to recording today because I've not been drinking much and I was really looking forward to a drink actually. Same here. You know the one we've chosen is quite nice. So yeah I am you know obviously welcome back to drinking wine and talking

shit everyone who's listening. We are, yes I've planned the episode today, Amy's not been allowed to research anything so hopefully I'll get some nice gasps and outrageous shocking faces. Go on. Yes, sorry, yes, I'm really looking forward to the topic. I do know what the topic is but again, I normally would go down to my little rabbit hole and do all research on every single thing but I've been told specifically I'm not allowed to do that today so I'm really excited for Sadie to teach me something as well. Yes but obviously first things first I am going to introduce the wine and the why. Today we've decided on this nice champagne, let me have a look at it again because I couldn't remember. Oh, it's a Gartissier. I thought it said Cartissier.

I wonder if Jack GPT wouldn't let me do it right. When I was researching. So it's a champagne Gartissier brewed from a champagne region of France. France is a country after my own heart. We went in January and I love every minute of it. I don't care if people think French people are rude. I did not experience much rudeness but people are rude in general I find. And also I was trying to use my French and everyone kept saying to me, why do you keep trying to speak French? They all speak English but it's polite. It's not the point. I'm trying to learn my French as well. Although that I've given up, remember. I know, but you like to try and use it. I do like to try and use what I know.

And actually a lot of people, especially the taxi drivers, are like, Oh, very good, well done. I was like, thank you. Anyway, let's get to our episode then today, Ames. Before we dive straight into it, I just want to allow, let the viewers know that this is a two-parter. Hence why we have chosen a banging champagne for today. Because we thought, you know, we'll treat ourselves. We're doing a two-parter and we're going to let this champagne last us two episodes. We probably won't last two episodes,

but we're gonna attempt. So on our next episode, if we don't do a wine and a why, you know why. So it's gonna be a cracking two-parter. We really hope you enjoy it. And most of all, for the listeners, sorry, and viewers, we would love your views. We love your, we'd love your stories, your life experiences relating to any of our topics, but specifically ones that we feel are close

to our hearts in terms of isn't the world just messed up. And yeah, so please, please do send yours in if you listen to this episode. Yes, honestly, we really want to hear them like really. So today then Amy we are talking all about incels okay so this episode is actually entitled incels and women with a voice taking up space in a world that pushes back along with a got to see a chameen fabulous darling. So uh first things first then what is incel? Do you know what an incel is? I think I do a little bit but I couldn't tell you the full definition. As far as I'm aware, someone who doesn't have sex basically is... So my only knowledge of this is from the adolescent

show and I know we did an episode around that. And again, I've not been allowed to go and find any more details. So the only thing I know is that it's people who involuntarily don't have sex. Yeah, so, okay, so in short... They're not chosen as the people of... So how sex win, if I'm saying that right. Yeah, so in short, incel means involuntarily celibate, okay? And it refers to an individual, typically a heterosexual male, who believes that they are unable to form romantic or sexual relationships despite desiring them.

So it's kind of evolved into an online subculture characterised by misogynistic beliefs, feelings of victimhood and in some cases endorsement of violence against women. Sounds lovely, sounds delightful. Yes it does, it does. So the thing is, so I've got a few kind of key kind of demographics and core beliefs here, I want to kind of explain these. So they're predominantly young heterosexual males often in their 20s who may experience social isolation and mental health challenges. Now I think this is true because sometimes like we did some training about this with one of my clients and they were telling us all about these different forums that these kind of people frequent and they are

very negative towards women but not all of them are like that some of them just are lonely and just want a relationship. And I think there's a lot surrounding like upbringing, social media and the internet. Absolutely. And then, and mental health. Yeah. I really think it is that. I think, go on, go on. They just sounds lonely to me. Like they sound very, from what you said there, like they've not got an experience of life. I may be wrong.

Yeah, and I think, well, let me carry on and then you'll kind of gauge a bit more. So apparently some of their core beliefs are a conviction that societal structures and women's rights and autonomy are to blame for their lack of romantic success. This perspective can foster resentment towards women and those perceived as more socially or sexually successful. So they even don't like men who are doing better than they are in the realm of relationships and sex. And actually they call these men, they call these men chads. Chads. Chads, yeah. So, you know, somebody that is probably better looking or more successful or good at getting women are chads. And it doesn't matter. And those are pretty women. So like you, for example, you'd be considered a Stacey.

Lovely name. Yeah. Stacey is my... Anyway. Guy going on. Obviously so a Stacey. But yeah, so, and apparently every girl, every Stacey is only with you until she gets a Chad. Now, one of my questions here was, well, are you going for Stacey's? Because if you go for Stacey's

and you're not necessarily a Chad, you might not get a Stacey, but you could be a Brad and you could go for a Jessica. You could be a Brian or a Paul or a Dave or a John. And you could go for a Karen. But still... I think what you're coming across as here, and I get this, and I don't like to say this, but in life you wouldn't, I wouldn't personally, and everyone can judge me if they want to, I wouldn't go out with somebody I wasn't attracted to or once I'd met them and I got to know them and that attraction built then I'd be with them. So for me it's not always about love at first sight

and lust at first sight, you might get to know someone and find them attractive based on yes they might already be attractive to you, but also their personality then adds to that. So you don't have to be, especially as a man, you don't have to be the fittest person in the world to have something about you and have some confidence and treat someone right and still get what you would call a Stacy. But also, I'm so sorry, but no, if you are a computer all day every day, don't have a job or don't have no thought process of getting a good job or having a good career, no I don't want to be with you because I want a good job and I want a good career and if someone's not going to match my energy and effort and levels, and we're going to be a good team together, why would I want to be with you? It's not about getting you to pay for everything for me.

So I would like someone on par with who I am as a person and I just wouldn't want to go out with somebody who sits on a game all day or sits in computer forums all day. And also there is somebody for everybody. Like it's not just, you're obviously going or I don't even think you go into places. I don't think you've actually even experienced much in life. If you think that you're not going to get a girlfriend or you're not going to be successful in relationships. I know some really not great looking men and they've all had plenty of girlfriends. And it's not just because they've got loads of money. It's because they've not got any money. Shocker.

But they're still doing fine in that world and you know there is someone for everyone, there's more than one person for everybody. And also before the internet that's what happens. You go out on your date and yes, somebody who is quiet might meet someone else who's quiet. Someone who's excited but allowed might be excited but allowed to meet someone who is a little bit different to them and they get on. You know, you go out and you meet people not just on nights out or night clubs but doing

extracurricular activities going for coffee just doing going to work um stat for you did you know that apparently well it's not a stat apparently and when women were allowed to go into the workplace that that's what increased the number of affairs bullshit I don't know that was true anything you know why that was because they realized all the route the house no increase the number of office related affairs because obviously men and women working to get my eyes I I don't know I got that that's a lie but and that was something I was watching on men hating

on women so obviously that was a gonna that you're gonna say that. Blame the women. And I can't remember what I was gonna say. Go on. Well anyway so I'm just gonna explain a little bit further so incels frequently engage in online forums where they share grievances, reinforce negative beliefs and in some instances discuss or glorify acts of violence. Now again these online forums first of all have you had many experiences with women? And if you haven't, you are then thinking, feeling quite sorry for yourself and then seeking out validation for your loneliness and feeling sorry for yourself. So you're going to then, your mind is going to, the more you watch something and the more you see something, the more you're going to believe it. It's like these flat earthers. Hey, don't just, we'll have a conversation about Flutter. Because to be honest, kind of a private joke there, but...

Yeah, but, we'll come back to Flutter, because I think that is an interesting thing, and I think if you actually do some research around it, there are very good reasons as to why people believe it. Have you watched any of the reels that you've been sent to our very beginning? No, not yet. You wouldn't know. I have. She hasn't, Amy hasn't sent them to me.

But it's not the point. If you fill your mind with something you are bound to start to believe it. I agree and with the internet and everything you've got all this mass information in one place all the time. I do it to myself, I fill my head with all these horrible things in the world because all I'm doing is looking for them. If you do that you are only going to believe that's the only thing in the world and it's not true. It's like you follow all these women on Instagram who have got these fantastic lives and then you start to feel a bit shit about your own. Well stop looking at that. If you look at funny things and jokey things and

normal people of everyday, not normal people, but everyday life. Every day life, yeah, yeah. You know, you think, actually my life's pretty good. Like, do you know what I mean? Like, actually, yeah, right, I get to go on holiday every year. I've got a beautiful family. I've got little children. Also, those people who are in those and will come onto something else a bit later is, they're probably not happy. They're probably not that happy. They're putting it on social media because they're hype.

Not everybody, but a lot of the time people are putting things on social media to mask the fact that they're not happy. And look at all these things I've got monetarily, but not the things I've got emotionally or physically that are actually making me happy. And actually I stopped posting on social media because one, I can't be bothered, and two, I think my life is lovely. Sometimes you don't, you don't, you're not thankful because you forget to be thankful because you're busy and you're stressed and you, but actually my life is lovely. I've got lovely children, I've got a lovely partner and I'm quite happy. I don't need to show everybody about it. I forget. Yeah.

Spend all the time trying to make this podcast a success. Well that's it. Yeah, and the own stuff. Yeah, me and Instagram. We're on drinking wine and talking shit Instagram all the time now. Forget our own, that's all. Cancel those accounts. Cancel that with A. Shut them down.

Yeah. Okay, so some UK specific data then, Aims. So a 2025 study commissioned by the UK's Commission for Countering Extremism surveyed 561 self-identified incels. Now, self-identified as well. Findings revealed high levels of perceived victimhood, anger, misogyny, and mental health issues among participants. Notably, about 5% believed violence was often justified against those

harming their community. How are they harming your community? Do you mean actually violently harming you or do you mean a woman said no to a date or to a sexual advance? Is that harming your community? I don't know. I looked at something on Instagram earlier and it was, I sent it to my partner because it was basically a reel and I think some were taken out of context if I'm honest because one was a comedian who I really like and I actually have seen this stand up and he was

definitely joking because he was talking about women and uh black people and how we shouldn't be dicks to them but he used some examples of his so a bit of friends. Was it a white guy wearing a black t-shirt? Yeah. Yes I know who you mean because I well I saw that. He went out with Cape Beckinsale for a bit. Did he? Yeah he used to be really geeky and skinny and now he's just... I watched him. He is really funny um I watched him and I was like I don't think that's what he was saying. No he wasn't saying, it was part of a joke. So they took it out of context. However, some parts in the video of other men, you know, haven't been taken out of context because there's one old man on stage and at one point he's like saying something like...

Is it like a political arena, isn't it? Basically saying anyway that women were lesser beings and that we didn't deserve the right to say no to them or to kind of have the same rights and things like that and it was just really shocking and he meant it because it was part of his whatever it's called affidavit or what do you call it not affidavit just his political speech i don't know what he was doing Phil no you know like Karl Marx had a theory. Manifesto! Ha ha ha ha ha ha. Karl Marx.

Part of his manifesto. That's not started at you, mate. My geek. See if you're a geek. I'm becoming more of a geek in my old age. But, it was like he really did believe this. And there was another clip of a man saying, well, three women with a PhD are not as smart

as one drunk man. I know. Oh, what the fuck are they? Because they've with a PhD are not as smart as one drunk man. I know! Oh what the fuck are they? Because they've got a PhD not bad! You've got a PhD! No! What are you going to get one? Did you even pass A level? Did you even pass A level? I did. Art, Design and Technology. I quit before A level but went back to a clash. I'm joking actually I've got a maths A level thank you. But anyway, I'm not, and I also believe just to say that men deserve rights too. I'm not saying that you don't, I'm saying that unfortunately what you guys have done is fucking shut yourselves in the foot and I will get angry about this because we've got this lonely man crisis now.

You know if you were nicer to us, we probably wouldn't have fought for that many rights. You know if you were just nice and didn't rape us? Did you know it wasn't until 2003 that you were raped in the UK that it became illegal in marriage? 2003! I'm so angry. Can I ask you a question? Do you know what the rape statistics are?

How many women get raped? Like one in 25, one in 50. You mean reported rape? Well obviously yeah because otherwise it would be a statistic but go on. No. No I'm not, yes. One in a hundred, one in ten, one in five, one in three. One in six so you're very close. One in three in the army. Is it? Yeah. That doesn't surprise me at all. I know. Gets very much swept under the rug. Oh, we'll do an episode on that, I'll do the research. Yeah, yeah, you can do that one. I'm in. That means rights in the army, that'd be a good one. Okay, so let me just explain this then as well. I don't know if you know about the Prevent Programme. I know you probably do know about it.

I do. I've heard stories and stuff. But, obviously the obviously the prevent program is all about preventing, and I don't like to say extremism, I like to say preventing, or preventing terrorism, I like to say preventing attacks based on ideology, because it's not about, very well said by the way, you're a Muslim, you can look at me at a terrorist stamp, because it's not, it's not, it's about ideologies and beliefs, just as much as white supremacy and incel behaviour is an ideology, it's not. It's about ideologies and beliefs. Just as much as white supremacy and incel behaviour is an ideology, it's brainwashing. As much as radicalisation. Any type of radicalisation, it doesn't have to be specific to a religion at all. Which is what annoys me when people say this white guy went round and killed a load of people in school but it wasn't terrorism.

Well it was though. In his head he had an idea. It was inflicting terror as you said the other day. Due to his beliefs usually. Yeah yeah. That does annoy me when they don't put it down to terrorism because it's a white guy. That does annoy me. But that's more American. It is, it's more Americanised. Whereas in England the insult and the white supremacists are very much involved in the prevent training which is really boring and I have explained that I'm going to do my own prevent training and make it really interesting because it actually is. However, it is. So there's a prevent referrals program which colleges and schools and any providers such as you know anything, nurseries, everyone has to have prevent training now actually. Can I just say we had at the last

school I ever worked at for a left teaching we had two people come in and a man and a woman they were fantastic it was the most entertaining prevent and safeguarding training I've ever done it was done very very well they were very they were just not what I say entertaining I mean they made you interested they made you really really want to listen and the way they delivered it was great. And that's what I want to do. So you can join me on that then. I'll pay you for the time. Okay. And we'll deliver some in different businesses and schools. I've got some great case studies. Yeah, that's what I like to include loads of case studies. So interesting. Anyway, talking of case studies. In 2023-24 period, the Prevent

Referrals Programme, okay, in this programme, 54 boys were referred to the UK's programme due to concerns related to incel ideologies, okay. And also the UK Security Minister, Tom Tuggenhatt, I think it's like that, Tuggenhatt, Tuggenhatt, anyway, has equated the threat of incel- violence, and again I don't like to say to that of Islamist terrorism, emphasising the need for vigilance and intervention. Again, I don't really like to point out that it's similar to that because I think, you know, as far as- That's not a very specific example, and I believe there are lots of different acts of

terror you could have- Yes. I'm not saying that you can't also refer to it, Islamist terrorism, but I know that there are millions and millions and millions of Muslims and if you go off the amount of Muslims to the amount of Islamist-related terrorist attacks, it's quite a small percentage, obviously it's going to be far smaller for incel ideology and however is it much smaller for white supremacy attacks? I don't know. Probably nowadays but back in the day, years ago maybe in the 60s and 70s and things like that, probably not. And as times have moved forward, God yes I still see that happening now but I think because we see so much on the news and let's

face it's probably propaganda, what we see in the news we're showing things that... And face it's probably propaganda, what we see in the news, we're showing things that... And told it's certain things. Yes, and told it's certain things. I think it's very, very... You must be very careful about what you listen to and what you hear in the news because even the BBC have been accused so many times for being, you know, spouting propaganda, lies,

bias, you know. Not allowing certain journalists to share certain pieces of information, especially when it was World War I, World War II, BBC was so prejudiced. Really? Yeah, I've done the research around that as well, I can also share things on that with you. But in America there's loads of white supremacy. Oh absolutely, yeah, yeah.

Like America's got one of the highest, it is the highest for school shootings, I think it's like one a day. More than one a day. I've got some info about that. Which is ridiculous, you don't hear it, you don't know about it. There probably won't be one day. All in one day. I've got some info about that. Which is ridiculous and you don't hear it. You don't think about it. There probably won't be one today. There was a great reel on Instagram by an American man who, a white American man, older

man, and I thought when I first started watching it he was going to be against... I know who you're talking about. ...like kind of defending it, but he wasn't. He was literally pointing out, no, what the problem is is these young white boys going into schools and shooting everybody. Why are we allowing guns? Why are we allowing these weapons to be easily purchased? And sorry, I was not aiming to do research on this topic, but there was a program, there's two programs on Netflix

or Prime, maybe Prime, I'll find them and put them in the show notes, called Accused. It's a new series. The first episode I watched was of White Man and he was in a program called SHIELD, short, bold actor, quite a stocky guy, and in it he plays a nice dad and his son. And this is so random that we're doing this episode now, I watched this the other day, it was just a drama, but it was basically kind of showcasing that people get accused and how they get accused and what for. Anyway, the dad got accused, even though the son went went into the school shooting and then shot himself is the condes dad into believing his dad was like getting in with him and you know like kind of building this relationship as the top for somebody so he can go to Iceland he gave him ten

grand bought guns shot everyone shot himself his dad didn't even ask where the money was going yeah that Iceland the country me not the shot yeah that Iceland the country mate not the shop. When you said 10 grand I thought you meant for food! No and also there's no Iceland in America. I was asking somebody to go to Iceland. With his friend. And I'm thinking but he was like a turner to get some Iceland food. Ain't gonna get a good one for a turner are ya. No you want to get, I'm sure it was Iceland, it was. With his friend, his dad though silly After him also finding information that his son may be like this kind of aggressive person He wanted to kill people gives his son 10k and doesn't ask where it's going doesn't ask to see the the transaction to do

So he's going on holiday his dad's on trial in the episode Yes, I won't tell you the end but um, if you want to watch that like It's it's based on real life situations and they spin it to say if you were accused of this sort of thing, the perception. But really interesting, as the boy is, you see a clip of the boy leaning over a bridge, dropping rocks onto cars before he commits the crime. And once he's doing it, you can hear what he's thinking and he's like I'm gonna kill all these bitches and his chads and stacies and I just realised that's what he said and I was like oh my god so that explains your episode so he's very insubrelated

I feel like you know like that randomly that was the first episode of the series and it was really good the thing is you know how they call them Chad's like can you remember that comedian what's his name that Scottish guy and it's like yeah let's go to Chad Hogan's house because Chad was like the name of the popular kid that's why they're called Chad's. I think it's a Brad or a Ken like it reminds me of a Ken and Barbie situation yeah Brad and Stacey. Brad and Stacey why have I heard that before? No it's not Brad and Stacey it's Chad and Stacey but why have I heard Brad and Stacey before maybe yeah I don't know those are names of people from I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. I don that you can kind of go away and research because I know what you're going to be like. You're going to go down and down and down. I need to know everything. And then you're going to have things to tell me. So obviously there's quite a few educational initiatives. So in response to the growing influence of incel culture, UK educational authorities have issued guidance for teachers to identify signs of radicalization among students

and this includes monitoring for specific language and behaviors associated with incel ideologies and providing appropriate interventions. So we've already talked about the language of Chad and Stacey. There's also one called FHO. Have you heard of FHO? No, so I didn't know about this. I saw this on a training session and the person that was doing the training had obviously got access to some forums that these people frequent. And there was this one guy saying he loves to see an FHO cry makes his day, da da da.

So he's basically referring to a female humanoid organism. Oh my God, what a way. Oh my God. They won't give them the satisfaction. But what a way to dehumanize them. That's what serial killers do when they're... And so it's just they're using humanoid, but it's humanoid. That is how they're dehumanising them. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's... yeah. They just look human. They're not real. They're just there for our benefit. And we can attack and rape them and do whatever we want. Yeah. Excuse me! We don't attack and rape human! Even if we had the power to, we wouldn't do it! I mean, some women would, but I'd like to think that most of us wouldn't. Unfortunately, the majority is on the bad side gentlemen, sort it out. Yeah so obviously there's and there's lots of different types of language and obviously

they reference the black pill, the blue pill, the red pill but what we're going to do is we've been doing this episode for quite some time so we're going to leave it there and we're going to come back for a part two of this. And we're going to go into more detail about incel and specifically what it is that I'm going to go and do some research because I'm so into Incel. Yes, anyone know more about me after this. And I'm really glad we did it as a two-part talk so that I could go away and do that and then come back with all my thoughts. And also like we say, if you've got your opinions and you know things about this or you know you're quite educated in this arena, please share those opinions with

us because we would love to hear them, okay? Definitely. So, and if you know things that we should know and you've got facts and information, send them over. Definitely. Yeah. So listen, sorry that it's, you know, usually we go, go on and on and on, but we did want to cut this into two parts. So thank you so much for listening. Um, and cheers.

That's champagne. Um, thank you so much for listening to drinking wine and talking shit. And we'll see you next time. See you next time!