Drinking Wine and Talking Shit - S2E5: Incels and women with a voice!

Episode Date: May 31, 2025

In this crucial second part of our series, we delve into the alarming rise of incel ideology and its real-world impact. We're breaking down the statistics and shedding light on the dangerous spread of misogyny, both online and offline.What you'll learn in this episode:Incel-Related Violence in the UK: We discuss tragic incidents like the Plymouth Shooting and the concerning increase in Prevent referrals linked to incel ideology.The Impact on Men and Women: While incel ideology primarily targets women, we examine how men have also been victims in related attacks and the disturbing rise in online discussions promoting violence against women.Influence on Youth and Education: Discover the growing concern about incel culture influencing young people in schools and the rise of online radicalization among teenage boys sharing violent and misogynistic content.Why Women Must Take Up Space: We challenge the false narratives perpetuated by the incel movement and emphasize why it's more critical than ever for women to speak up, lead, and show up authentically.How to Protect Yourself and Stay Empowered: Learn practical strategies for navigating online hostility, the power of community, and why you shouldn't internalize misogynistic hate.This isn't just about fighting trolls; it's about recognizing a systemic problem and empowering ourselves to counter it. Your voice matters, and your discomfort can be the catalyst for change.Key takeaways from this episode:The disturbing statistics behind the rise of incel ideology.The importance of self-care through blocking and reporting online abuse.The strength found in community and shared stories.A powerful call to action: where can you take up more space this week?Join us in this vital conversation as we explore the challenges and champion the power of women's voices.Don't forget to subscribe, rate, and leave a review – it helps other women find our empowering conversations!#Incels #Misogyny #OnlineSafety #WomenWithAVoice #Empowerment #Feminism #GenderEquality #TakeUpSpace #OnlineHarassment #CommunitySupport #PodcastForWomen #SelfCare #SpeakUp #StatsAndFactsSources: Channel 4: https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-secret-world-of-incels-untoldGovernment information and prevent policies: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/predicting-harm-among-incels-involuntary-celibates/press-release-incels-need-mental-health-support-rather-than-a-counter-terrorism-intervention-the-worlds-largest-study-of-incels-finds-accessibleEducate against hate: https://www.educateagainsthate.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/11/Incels-A-guide-for-those-teaching-Year-10-and-above-1-1.pdfFind us on Instagram and Tiktok @DWTS_Shit. And you can follow @only_aamy & sadie.cubitt on Instagram too. Let's laugh with wine together!

How are you doing this week Zeed? I'm good thank you actually. So am I, so am I. Why are you good? I'm just looking forward to doing this episode. I'm just for the viewers reference, I'd just like to say because it is funny, we did have to re-record it. We had too many interruptions by family members. It was just so hard to edit. I'd had enough. So I thought, you know what, for viewer and listeners, sorry, yeah, I thought we'd re-do it, do another episode. But we're looking forward to kind of getting back into it because to be honest, it is, I say one of my favourite topics, not because it's a good topic, it's not a nice fun topic, but it does interest me a lot. And it does really, really interest me, like the way the world is and how weird things are, things can be. Yeah, so obviously in the last episode that we did on incels, we talked about, you know, a lot of different things in terms of terminology, what an incel is.

For those that don't know, it's an involuntarily celibate person, usually male. There are slowly women coming into this. There actually are, there are. But this is mostly male and it refers to an individual typically a heterosexual male who believes they are unable to form romantic or sexual relationships despite wanting them and it's kind of it's kind of spiralled now into a very supportive online community and an online subculture characterized by misogynistic beliefs feelings of victimhood because you know it's it's it's women's fault

that they're not getting a woman, they're not having sex, you know, they're a victim here. That's it, blame the woman. And in some cases, endorsement of violence against women. So we went through a lot of things in the last episode, so please go and check that out if you haven't listened to it, it is interesting.

It is, and it is called Insults and Women with a Voice, part one. So welcome guys to Women up to In Cells Women with a Voice Part 2. This week guys we're actually doing a bit of a detox. We had the wine fan with us last week and we recorded a whole two hour episode which we will air next week. It won't be a similar format to this, we're actually sharing the room with myself, obviously Sadie, our mother, and a great guy named Michael who on Instagram is the dot wine fan so if you'd like to

check him out please do. We'll be sharing that episode, like I say it won't probably be as organized as this one in terms of the way we kind of run it but you will learn a lot about wine. However this week one of the wines we did try is a Mimi. Mimi is a beautiful rosé which I was actually very glad to try it was absolutely lovely so please keep an eye out for us on social media where we'll be sharing that wine, what it's like, where it's from and what we learned about it and hopefully you guys can try it as well yourselves. All of the wines we tried, I'd just like to add, were affordable, lovely, beautiful wines that actually, you know, we learned so much

so we really hope you can check that out next week. Yep and obviously as part of the, well I'm doing a glow up, obviously you might have seen, so obviously I'm doing a detox but maybe for the next 12 weeks really, so until she gets married so I won't be drinking on many of the episodes now, I might be but I am also trying to support Sadie so whether I'm drinking on the episodes or not I'll be definitely drinking at the weekend, but not obviously sometimes we film definitely drinking at the weekend. But not, obviously, sometimes we film our episodes in the evenings, in the week, and sometimes we do them in the weekend.

But either way, I will be supporting Sadie in her challenge, so please keep an eye out for that and how it continues and progresses because Sadie's glow up is on the way. It is, I'm so excited actually. So let's move on then to our In Cells part 2 and why women need a voice and take up space in this day and age. First things first, I just wanted to tell you something. Did you know that violence against women is now becoming an epidemic? Wow, I'm not surprised. And I saw on the news article the other day about this woman who was dating a secondary school geography teacher. I don't know if it was geography actually,

but a secondary school teacher. And I don't know if they were dating or friends or whatever, but obviously he'd come on a little bit too strong and he'd become a bit obsessed with her. So she told him that she just wanted to be friends and so he asked her to meet him somewhere to get his stuff back that he'd given to her as gifts and he he stabbed her 15 times and he only stopped because five men pulled him off her and then he did get loose. Nice to know there were five men who were willing to get involved and stop that so let's not say it's all men. You can never say it's all men. There are good men in the world and there are bad men.

Of course, I'm not saying that. Um, he did then get free again and tried to strangle her. Right. So they grabbed him back. Well, that is pure rage taking over right there. Yeah. Like, pure, how dare you? How dare you? He's got a teacher as well.

Calm down, dude. Yeah, you'd think he'd have more patience. Yeah, whatever. And he's not being charged with attempted murder. I think he's being charged with manslaughter. Why? Don't know. Ridiculous.

That is ridiculous. And linking that to the insult kind of episode there, do you think he did that because he thought, like, how dare you kind of tell me and deny me? I mean, we don't know, we don't know the psychology behind it. And this whole becoming an epidemic thing, do you think it's because women are no longer as, what's the word when you,

we're not gonna just lie down and take it. We're not gonna just lie down and take it. Submissive. Submissive. That's the one. I was gonna say subdued, subtitled. not gonna just lie down and take it. Submissive. Subtiled. Yeah we're not. We will say now. We will say now and they think that we're entitled but we are entitled to be free and happy the same as you guys are entitled to be free and happy and I was having a conversation with my partner and I said the thing is it was about Bonnie Blue and Andrew Tate. Now I agreed with his point. He said you say this about

Andrew Tate, he's putting all this stuff out there that's quite bad, it's you know a bit brainwashing and it's influencing people to do things that are probably not right. I said yes and I agree Bonnie Blue is kind of influencing young women she's not the best role model I would necessarily say for young women. However she's not inciting hatred, she's not inciting violence, she's actually empowering women who couldn't have done something they did before. Not saying it's okay, I wouldn't do it and I would have want my daughter to be doing what she's doing. It's the barely legal thing for me. It's the barely legal thing for me too. But I do agree with what my partner was saying, they're both

bad role models absolutely, but women have been smushed down for decades, for centuries and centuries, for hundreds and hundreds of years. I think we're just trying to take the power back a little bit now and luckily and we have to say this we've got men who do support us because if we didn't we would never have this freedom. That's right. Let's be honest they didn't have to say this, we've got men who do support us because if we didn't, we would never have this freedom. That's right. Let's be honest, they didn't have to give it to us. They could have just pinned us down, held us down, put us in prisons because they could

have. Let's face it, they're stronger than us, that's why it always was that way. Luckily, we have laws now that protect us from that, but who made sure those laws happened? Yes, the suffragettes fought for them, but without men being on our side in the first place, would those laws have been passed? But I also think that if all women, or not all women, but if the suffragettes, they were causing havoc and they just thought, oh, fuck it, we'll give it all. That's what it came down to in the end. And then as it's gone along... Oh no, I don't agree. Now, I'm not saying that that's all it is, but I'm saying you can't say, oh mean that's what it came down to in the end and then as it's gone along. Oh no, I don't agree.

Now I'm not saying that that's all it is, but I'm saying you can't say oh it's just because men have said yes. At the end of the day, they've given them a bit of leeway here and there. Look at child labour, you know. That still happens. Yes, but what I mean is like the factories, they'd work and employ these children and then when the laws came in to say you can and employ these children and then when the laws came in to say you can't employ your children under the age of 11 or

whatever it is, they were uproar. If they want to work and I can employ them why can't I do that? Because they're children. You know so... Oh so you're paying them hardly anything. Yeah. Do they want to work or do they have to because they've got nothing? Yeah because they're poor. But you know there must have been some men along the way who said, no, these women deserve rights, they're human beings just like us. Yeah, yeah. Surely. They wouldn't have just gone, oh, God, just give it up. They were all out.

But change happens in history, change has happened when there has been war, there has been riots, there's been, not riots, but... Protests. Thank you. Protests. has been riots, there's been not riots but protests, thank you, protests and there has been people that have caused some kind of uproar or havoc within a center. I think that should be, I think you know, it's like subprojects didn't hurt anyone at all, but they were trying to make a change and they carried on and carried on and carried on until it happened.

If they hadn't have done that we wouldn't have got it anyway, whether those men decided on it. They wouldn't have come up with that of their own accord, would they? No, of course not. I'm not saying that at all. But I am saying there must have been someone along the way when the suffragettes started to fight for their rights. Men didn't just walk over and go, oh, just give it to you. Because a lot of men would have been like, no, no, no, no. They would have been like, absolutely not. They're women, they're not as clever as us. They actually think that still. Some people think that still, sorry, and some men think that still. But then you've also got women, other men who would have gone, no, they do deserve these

rights. Otherwise the bill or the law never would have been passed in the first place. So I'm just saying... Especially back then when there were no women in politics. Absolutely and I'm just very conscious of us hating on men. I don't want that to come across this way. I'm not hating on men. I'm not saying you are. I want the viewers and listeners to know that is not what we're trying to imply. There are lots of good men that we know and lots of good men in the world. I love men. Yes, I think there are lots of brilliant, amazing, thoughtful, emotionally intelligent men and actually I saw this

thing and I can't remember a flipping name but I'll find a name and she was on a podcast and they were saying she says this the woman that she was talking to started talking about Andrew Tate and she said yes I know who he is but I spoke about this on another podcast and I've just decided I'm not going to talk about him I'm not going to give him all of that exposure because the more we talk about those people the more money they get and the more things they get and the more... And then she said, did you see what happened when Selena Gomez, his boyfriend, talked about her and how emotionally

open and intelligent he was and how wonderful he was and he didn't care what anyone else thought about the way he was and everyone went crazy for him and she said I remember when she started dating him someone said oh yeah but he's not good-looking enough and then after he did that podcast where he said no I do this I do that I'm this kind of person and was like I need a boyfriend and we do want those good men and I think we should be talking about those men and she made such a good point she's so right and I think we should be talking about those men and she made such a good point She's so right. She's so right. She was like we should be talking about those men

We should be talking about she named others. I will have to find them Those are the good men. Those are the ones we should be talking about. The ones who fought for our rights Yes, the ones who don't want you are partners, they're partners to be treated badly and and hurt and and again My partner talks about that all the time when he works you are partners, they're partners, to be treated badly and hurt and again my partner talks about that all the time when he works at a nightclub on a Saturday night as is one of his jobs and he said until I met you I didn't realise how many predatory people were out there, not just men, women can be quite bad too, but one time I went and I'd had a few drinks and I went to go to the toilet and I always do this when I go to this particular

nightclub, I think they're upstairs. They're not upstairs. They've been upstairs for the last 15 years I've ever been there but for some reason I think they're upstairs and I went to go upstairs. The loft at Kyra's. I went to go upstairs. There is another part to it but it wasn't open. I went to go upstairs and these four men just followed me up the stairs and I literally step back, held the door and waited backwards and Chris was at the bottom of the stairs and he just literally went like this and saw me move away and they literally looked at me and then they went back down the stairs but because obviously Chris and the door staff were at the bottom of the stairs. What were they going to do?

I don't know because there's no bloody toilet up there anyway. That is crazy. Weird right? Can you remember the time I was in Spain? Yeah, terrible. And we'd gone to visit my mom and me and my partner at the time were driving through the middle of Spain. It was quite a desolate area. I wouldn't say there was anyone there at all. There was no houses, no built up areas. It was just the

odd petrol station every 200 miles or kilometres. And we stopped to get fuel and I got out of the car and there was an outside for female toilets and outside men's toilets. And whilst he's filling up the car, two men follow me into the toilet and my partner at the time puts down the thing and goes walk straight in because what are you doing? And they come straight out and walked off. I wonder what they were gonna do. And also, how likely is it that some random woman is just gonna turn up at that really desolate area and then you're like oh I need a wee and they were like oh that's a lone woman going to the toilet on a road I know what I'll do. And he's me agreed. There was one part where they were like no I don't think we should. We were like yeah come on let's go let's get off. Let's go rape her in that toilet.

Right so yeah up on Tundra again. Exactly. Let's go back to where we are. But yeah, we do need to talk more about the good men and maybe we should do an episode on that. We should definitely do that. Yes, we should. Okay, so Amy, in our previous episode we talked about all of the different things surrounding incels, what they are, who they are, what they stand for. You've now been away and done some of your own research and you've dug straight down into your rabbit hole as usual and you've got some information for me. So tell me a bit more about what you've learned about incels. So for me I did quite a bit of research but one particular documentary that I watched and I will

hype up Channel 4 because Channel 4 does some great documentaries. It really does, it really really does and I watched one it was kind of I think it was like Untold or they've done an Untold on Pdidi as well if you want to catch that and but it was like In Cells Untold or something. It was hosted and he was like the journalist basically in it by a young guy who he seemed to really care about the situation and care about these young people who really I think within this incel community are either confused or are like the leaders of it and I think they were kind of the two sides there really. So he followed this one young man and he said he'd never been able to actually kind of break into the Intel community before.

He'd looked online, he'd actually kind of got into chat rooms and things like that but he'd never been able to speak to someone, no one had ever really shown their face and now he managed to get two or three people to actually be part of the documentary. At first they all wore masks until one of them did actually take his mask off for the journalist. He didn't actually show his face on TV. But during this time the journalist meets up with the guy first and he's wearing his white mask. He doesn't want to show who he is. Can you imagine if he took his mask off for the journalist, he'd be like, Oh God, yeah, you are ugly. I don't know. Jokes aside, jokes aside.

I just thought, won't that be horrible? You've agreed to be on this documentary. I don't know why that popped into my head. I don't think anyone would react that way. No, anyway. Even if you thought it. Just a joke, but it's just like all that, you've gone through all that and you already feel like shit about yourself. You've agreed to be on this documentary and then you think

yeah right then I'll show you what I'm like. Yeah yeah no I agree. Put it back, put it back. You're not gonna get a one foot. That was really mean. It is really mean. I'm joking. But it's just a joke. Because there is someone for everybody, let's just keep that in mind.

So he meets this young boy, this young lad, he's probably about 21. Now bearing in mind since he left school at the age of 15, 16, he never hardly goes out, he doesn't speak to anybody, his only life is his house and the internet. Now we all know what it's like when you sit on Instagram too long and you start to get weird vibes because you sat there and watched too many things that probably affect your brain or too many things that you wish you had so you've seen it too many times and I know that's happened to some people I know. Too many times when you've got something sad or terrible stories like I do to myself. I watch terrible stories to find out what's going on in the world because I think awareness needs to be based for certain topics and certain things.

But it does upset me after a while that this guy is sat at home feeling insecure, feeling probably ugly and unloved. And then he finds probably this community where everybody's saying it's kind of not you it's not your fault it's only it's because 80% of women only fancy 20% of men now apparently that was an Andrew Tate statement yeah but that's because he's he's got that from this has been going on for ages I've actually got an encyclopedia. I'll propose that to them in their chat shall I? They should call it an encyclopedia. My point was anyway he's then sat there so they're thinking oh you know people are saying to him a lot of people in the same chat rooms in the same type of chat rooms and no matter where he looks on the web he's looking for

a similar thing now because that's what he's interested in he doesn't want to be blamed for this so in these chat rooms he's being told that it's not your fault you know it's actually because of the 80-20 rule which is not true there is someone out there for everybody I honestly believe that I've seen it. So I feel like they then become kind of slightly brainwashed like we all have probably with social media and the way things work nowadays. I mean we are slightly brainwashed by everything but I want things to buy and you know fashion and you know home decor even as women you know we want things to look pretty

and nice and I want them so I feel like these young people are kind of in these communities all the time and slowly but surely it's kind of becoming ingrained in their minds that it's not their fault and then they're in these communities. It's brainwashing isn't it? Like you say they're reaching out they're looking for it and then they're only gonna look for what they're only gonna find what they're looking for because they're typing in certain things it's not like you're gonna type in what's the pros and the cons of incel behavior. Are they? Yeah. Yeah, they want justification Yeah, exactly and and that's fair enough, but carry on talking about this guy who did the documentary then

So what does he do? So he meets up with this young man And I know we mentioned on the last episode and I think you mentioned it quite a lot is that you've got Extremism in these groups where a lot of people actually really hate women, they want to hurt them because they are detested by women now, because how dare women not want them in a way I suppose or I don't exactly know their thought processes and it's you know I can't assume. I can tell you shortly. Okay. Got the things up. This young lad anyway he's 21 he meets up with a journalist and he starts to speak to him about a lot of things and what becomes really apparent is that he's actually scared to go out, he's scared to leave the house, he's scared to speak to him.

And those people that he calls, you would call a chat, he then, he kind of feels at some point during this documentary that the journalist is a chat because he actually takes the young man for a few drinks out. This is when they get to know each other a bit better. He takes off his mask. The camera, they blurred his face for the camera. But during this time, he does eventually agree to go out for a drink. And whilst they're out, they meet a couple of girls

that sat on a couple of tables behind them, or a table behind them, and they can hear them having this conversation. There's obviously cameras. So these people know something's going on. There's a documentary being made. And he says well you know the journalist says to him you know you ever think about speaking to a woman and before

they actually went out for this drink they were in the car on the way there and the boy the guy is shaking like he's got these cards with questions on and things like that because he's so nervous to even consider speaking to a woman because he thinks he'll get shut down now i'm not saying that if he went and asked her on a date she wouldn't say no because she might you might not be the kind of person she wants and and again yes certain people do fancy different types of people but you know how you're going to find out socializing going out figuring it out because there are some people you will just get a connection with it's nothing to do with like it's not all about looks it's about intelligence and personality and yes some types of women

may go for certain types of men but a lot of other women won't just go for certain types of men they'll go for good guys nice guys. Nice guys yeah it doesn't have to be yeah it's not all about the looks that most attractive men are sometimes the men that make you laugh yeah absolutely you can have a laugh without fun with. I agree. It's not all about that and I think that's a shame that that's why they've kind of you know they've got to. And during this drink anyway it kind of asks the the journalist asks these girls if you know whatever would mind wouldn't mind talking to them and before the girl comes over the young guy is like so you're gonna be a chat like you know get you just don't mind speaking to them because I'm not I'm not I'm not

being strange I'm not approaching them in a strange way I'm just asking them if they're how they are okay making conversation and then just having a conversation and more often than not people will just have a conversation this guy is so sure that some girl is going to accuse him of attacking her if he just speaks to her accuse him of accuse him of beating her and things like that and the fact that this man has the audacity to go and speak to her he must be a chad because he has confidence. Now the journalist is not an ugly ugly guy, he's not a bad-looking guy but I wouldn't say he's like the dead hottest guy in the

world that you would probably think of you know know, as, oh he's dead good looking defined by social standards. But I thought he was quite good looking, do you know what I mean? So, again, everybody's different. Again, it's about presence, isn't it? If you've got a bit of confidence and you're happy to have a conversation. I love it when people randomly talk to me. I'm a child, I will talk to anyone about anything. I'll talk to the crackhead on the corner. I'll help. You won't have to call people Kraken's anymore. I don't know.

Bless him, I opened the door for him the other day with Kiselle and he was like, John's not there love, I was like, thank you. Don't come in. No, not my door, shop. Sorry, I didn't make that clear. Shop door. I was going to say, what you letting? No, no, no, sorry.

Joking, joking, joking. I'm sure the crackhead. I don't live near loads of crackheads. Just the one, I'm joking. But I'm sure he was, you don't know that, you don't know, you can't judge a book by its cover. And you cannot assume that everybody in the world is going to be horrible and going to just throw you under the bus or not want to speak to you. And it was just a really interesting documentary and there is more about that and more things I have learned since we did the first episode but yeah I think you need to carry on in talking about what you were saying about the Encelopedia. Well I just find it quite interesting so I've been going through this with some of the training that I've been doing anyway with work.

But I just want to be I've got got this really good, so it's not actually theirs, it's actually for practitioners and people that need to know about these things. However, it has used a lot of the propaganda, you could call it, from the incel chat rooms and things like that, which is why it's really interesting. So just as an extra kind of explanation, incels are men who define themselves by their inability to form or access sexual relationships with women and they believe this is the combined result of genetic factors, evolutionary determined traits in women and inequitable social structures. Shall I read that last bit again about women. Evolutionarily determined traits in women.

Right, okay. And inequitable social structures, that should be careful. In cells are predominantly interested in accessing sex with women, but you shouldn't pay for it apparently. So, sorry, so they are interested in having sex, but not paying for it. So, it's okay to take it, It's okay to manipulate someone into it, but you shouldn't pay for it. Why? Dunno, can't remember why. I'll probably get to that in a minute.

Prostitution's been around since bloody years. Because it means that, obviously, they're just doing it for money. It's not because they like you. Not that rape is the same, but at least they're getting you know they're saying well I can take it if I want to then do you know what I mean I assume I'm not actually sure but anyway who created this incelopedia incel encyclopedia this is for training providers this one right but they've taken it from all of the incel chat rooms and things like that so for all the so it's the correct source of information it's reliable.

So incels believe genetic factors influence their physical appearance and or cognitive and social abilities to the extent that they are unattractive to women. Incels establish their unattractiveness through a range of measurements including their height, weight, bone structure, distances between specific facial features, boldness, wrist size, position on the autism spectrum and numerous other biologically determined features. These systems of measurement are taken from luckism theories which draw heavily on eugenics to describe an archetypal man. I feel like this is so in-depth to the point where I'm shocked that it exists.

In the cells believe that women are evolutionarily predetermined to seek out mates through a process called hypogamy. Which is, I believe, how you say it. So, hypogamy is premised on the belief that women are more sexually selective, have a narrow view of attractiveness and lower levels of promiscuity than men. And this means women deliberately seek out the most conventionally attractive mate, reject less attractive men and remain single when an ideal mate is unavailable. Give us some credit guys, so you're thinking then that your average Joe female who's just normal, like you want to say she's ugly or she's like bloody J-Lo, you think then that she's there being

you know what I need a Brad Pitt and if you don't come along well I'm having no one. That's not happening. So and again they've just mentioned here that so at the 80% that the 80-20 rule sorry so 80% of women are only attracted to 20% of men. Now what is most interesting here is how they define themselves in this situation Yes, in cells define themselves in opposition to the archetypes of Chad's Stacey's and normies. Okay, so Sorry for laughing shouldn't laugh So a Chad which they are not okay is an archetypal white alpha male Contrasting in cells in both their physicality and unlimited access to sex.

So unlimited access I mean sorry go on. No I'm just saying like I could understand why they would think unlimited access because in their heads they're thinking that these guys go look at me I mean they are the chads if I was gonna see to ask you what a chad is, I'd say it's them lads you see with their six-pack sat outside. Tiki-peach. So this is probably why this is very much included in the prevent duty and like safeguarding of this. Okay so drawing on eugenics and white supremacism, chads embody idealised characteristics of Aryan men, tall, chiseled, square-jawed, well-endowed and possessing a full head of hair. In cells believe that hypergamous behaviour causes women to seek out chads as the most attractive and powerful sexual partners are available. Question. They're not the people I'd want. That's my point. They're not the people you'd want, is it? No, would you want the Chad versions of it?

100% not! If these people are real, like I'm joking about, you can't put anyone in a box. God, I'm joking. But obviously, this is what I'm saying, incels are thinking, like they're thinking of these people as wee lads. They think there are only these types of people. Okay, so wait, because this is even better. The incel community is racially diverse and is actively involved in discussions of race and race realism. The Chad is the most commonly referenced male archetype however there are racialized Chad figures such as Tyrone, Chad Preet, Chatham and Chang. All of these figures are

constructed through racist stereotypes obviously because you've got the Indian, Asian, black, I don't know, I say Asian sorry, Indian, Chinese, black and I don't know Chadam? I'd say that's Indian as well maybe because obviously Chadpreet is obviously an Indian version of like Manpreet or whatever. Yeah. I don't know about that one. So basically they've created their own entire underground culture. Yeah, subculture. Okay now I don't want to go into too much into the detail but I do need to tell you these bits. Okay so you've then got a Stacey and here is an image of Stacey from their propaganda, okay, from what they would consider. A Stacey is the female counterpart to a Chad. She is a female

archetype at the apex of the social and sexual hierarchy. Stacey's have their pick of sexual and romantic partners. For this reason, they are hated by incels and are a target for online ritual humiliation and physical violence. The typical Stacey will only date Chads. You've then got the Beckys and the Badas. Here's Becky. Beckys are the majority of the female population and are subordinate to Stacey's. Okay. They are average looking and have lower social status. According to incels their SMV, sexual market value, an index of physical attractiveness, averages between 3 to 7 out of 10.

Like Stacey's, Beckys want to engage in sexual relationships with chads. However, incels believe that Beckys settle for beta books, males, after hitting the wall at 25. The age that incels believe all women begin to lose their sexual appeal. Oh my god! The primary difference between Stacey's and Becky's is that incels view Stacey's as hostile and unattainable whereas they feel that they are owed attention and sex from an inferior Becky. They're owed it. But they want to go out and like attack basically whether it's online or in physical form these these Stacey's. Like, do they realise that in the fact that they've created their own subculture to defend

themselves they're actually now becoming the person they hate? They're actually the person they hate? Like, they're the ones judging, they're judging, they're judging women and men based on what they think is real and becoming the haters and create their becoming what they want and also I'm sorry I am NOT a Stacey then because I'm not whatever they describe Stacey but I'm not a beta or a Becky or whatever you think they are That's so odd! Okay and then I've got just a few other little bits of terminology And again, not judging them because I feel like that actually is I actually feel like this is quite a bad, if they're in a very bad environment, they need to come out and see the real world.

Come on guys, we should do this, we should do an experiment, see if we can find someone from an in-cell community and help them realize the error of their ways. But can I just say? Unless we get raped and beaten first. Yeah, but not all of them think that that's acceptable. There are people in these communities who don't think that's acceptable. There are people in these communities

who don't think that's acceptable. However, can I just say, what I feel like is you could take someone out of there and unfortunately there are horrible people in the world. What you need is a normal upbringing to kind of realise and understand who the good and who the bad are. It has nothing to do with what you look like, just so we're clear. And the problem is one bad thing could happen to them. One girl would say, oh I'm not going to have you. And one man could be a dick, even though 100 people could be nice

and they'll only focus on that one thing and they go straight back into their community. So you've gotta be careful there. You wanna bring people out. They also need some mental stability. You can't just be like, look at the world, it's great. Because it actually isn't. You can't defend the world in the way.

You do it very carefully. It's very much like that journalist did. He was very careful the way he did it. He had lots of conversations with him first before he said, let's go out. And when they did go out there and they sat at this table and the girl did come and speak to them,

she was so nice to him. And you could see him shaking, like holding his things, asking the questions and like picking his cards out from under the table. And she said, I honestly believe there's someone out there for everyone, because they absolutely do. And she meant it because not everyone's an asshole but yeah there are a lot

of them but mostly in general day to day life everyone's just trying to get by and live their own lives and have some normality for themselves and not get hurt and be happy and believe you me there are so many other kinds of people than Chad, Stacey, Beta, Beattie, whatever there are who are loving each other getting married every day so don't assume guys. Now we also mentioned the programme adolescence in our last episode and in that programme they talked about the blue pill, the red pill, the black pill. Okay and obviously some people are a bit unsure as to what they meant so the blue pill is based on the film The Matrix from 1999 and the concept of pills is prevalent across the Manosphere and far right. According to incels a blue-pilled male engages in conventional dating practices unaware of

the real society incels inhabit. Incels see blue-pilled attempts to improve attractiveness as futile unless one's physical appearance improves, as this is all women care about. So in the chat room, it says, someone's put here, therapy is blue-pilled, it don't fix your face. So basically, if you're, yeah, if you're just gonna, if you're gonna try, if you're gonna get therapy to try and help yourself and make yourself feel better, there's no point.

These poor guys in these chat rooms have got no chance because there are other people in these chat rooms who are really extremely spewed. Are kind of saying, you can do that mate, it ain't gonna fix your face, you're still gonna be in the same situation. That is not true. Well, there's another pill, but before I leave the blue pill the blue pill is basically saying you you stay in where you are yeah you're in your world you know like like like in the matrix you're either gonna stay there you're gonna wake up to the real world so the incels are saying that us we are blue pillars we we're just in in our world and we're just we live in life in the wrong way we're not woken up yet to the real world okay whereas then the red pill is swallowing the red pill refers

to a man waking up to the real world where women are better off than men female oppression is a myth and women actually desire traditional gender roles if a man is aware of these truths of red pill ideology he can manipulate women to his advantage and access sex and power. The term red pill is not exclusive to incels and is used by other parts of the manosphere as well as far right and violent barbite groups. And the last one I just wanted to explain is the black pill. So sometimes in the chat rooms that I've noticed if they put a black pill it usually would mean like commit suicide you done for forget it. That's what I've noticed noticed however black pill philosophy accepts the unequal society proposed by the red pill but

rejects the idea that one can game at the system to their advantage it interprets sexual rejection as a matter of female prejudice and that unattractive genetically inferior men will never access sexual or romantic relationships in the current dating and sexual milieu. No amount of personality, charisma, or gym maxing, oh yeah, they call it gym maxing, if you go to the gym a lot, you try gym max, can change a black-pilled incels fate. Their genetic inferiority is hopeless and incessible.

Incels who have swallowed the black pill often describe themselves as doomed, with no other option but to lay down and rot. And that's an actual term, and they've shortened it to LVAR lay down and rot. I just feel so bad for people in these communities like they've got no chance if you actually believe what they're reading just go back to the black pill you know lay down and rot they're basically saying you've got no chance and what kind of life are you living if you actually read that and believe it and you're young and impressionable and

you've been bullied at school for a bit. Guys we've all been there yeah and then so you grow up and you know what you realize not everybody you know and not all people's lives are gonna be the way ours were. We experienced things at school that we didn't necessarily like we didn't grow up to be that way we grew up to be stronger because of it. My question is are the people telling these other incels that you might as well lay down a rot, do they think they're better than them? Yeah. Or do they also think that they're all

they're ugly? So what kind of so are there incels that believe that they're the red pill, blue pill or black pill? I don't know it's saying that if you're a red if you're a blue pillar you just you know you just I don't know. You're not living in the real world. Conventional dating, unaware of the real society. Red pill is where you've swallowed it and you've woken up and you can... The red pill, you've woken up, you can see the real world and the truths behind everything

now. Women should have gender roles and you can manipulate women and have sex and power. Black pill just means you're doomed. I think there will be more things, there will always be more things that we can look into with this but I just think that it's really sad, it's really really sad for people in that environment and it would be quite interesting to see what some of these people are saying to see the different types of incels and if you've got incel behaviour from people who think they're better incels, they're stronger incels and in that case then sorry you're still

putting yourself on a pedestal above these other people you think are below you. That's what I mean. So wouldn't that make you a chub then in your terminology? I know that's what I mean! Maybe I've got it wrong is there an incel out there who can broaden our minds on it. Yeah, I mean yeah, we'd love that. And also, again, in this documentary I saw a female who's now becoming incel. And she actually said she was so close to committing suicide, she didn't think anything more of it. You know, she was actually...

And the journalist even said it really upset me to speak to her because I, you know, she could just literally just didn't see the world as this important thing to live in. And why? What has happened? And when? Did the internet, because the internet is the cause of most of the issues we have. Also it does help us with certain things like being more aware of things and being able to share things that are important. But when you've got chat rooms like this that are brainwashing young minds to believe they have no worth, that is awful, you can't come back, it's

so hard and I do really feel sorry for these young guys and women but obviously guys more so because there's more of them in it. Yeah of course yeah. No I feel really sorry for them, that is not the way the world works. No it's not at all and it is a shame. But the fact that kind of things are going this way, obviously not everywhere and all men believe this or anything like that, but there is a lot more violence towards women and you know this is why we say that women do need to continue the way that we are and there is still things to fight for and

we do just want genuine equality. We're not saying we're not yeah we're not saying we're better than men. Yeah that men are better than us. Yeah, we just want to either have relationships of our own, you know, freedom, volition, if we want it. Yeah. And we also want to be left alone if we want to. We just want to have the same rights that men have and not have to worry when going out at night. Like I didn't go for my run in the woods because I was too scared that if I did go for a run in the woods by myself I'd get attacked. So Aaron's going to come with me later. But it's just frustrating.

Yeah. And I think, let's be clear here, we want equal rights. That doesn't mean we're equal in terms of what we can and can't do. No woman's equal to us. Sadie's better at things than I am. I'm better at things than Sadie is. Some men are better than other men at other things. But we can all be treated with respect, can't we? We can all be treated with the right to be safe, the right to be healthy, the right to be happy, the right to be somewhere living somewhere warm, and the right to access to a food shelter and all that. We should all have the right not to be hurt, attacked or made to feel shitty or under pressure

or manipulated or abused. Every man and woman in child should have that right. We are not saying women deserve more rights than men, all men deserve more rights than women. We're just saying that equal respect and equal care and kindness is not too much to ask for. And I think that every person, man, woman and child, deserve that. And animal. Of course, yeah. Yeah, so we still need a voice in today's day and age. We think that times are better and we've got more rights than we used to have, but we still, we've still got to be present, we've still got to be loud and it's okay to want that equality. So that was kind of our main message along with this incels one. But the incels, it's been highly interesting hasn't it Amy? I just think wow.

I do found it really interesting. So interesting. Something that's actually really shocked me even more so because I know you've kind of brought that, the safeguarding document with you and obviously Sadie being in the education space is something that she has kind of seen more of since she's Been involved in more event and child protection training and is it something that obviously has been taught now to Leaders and teachers in schools to make sure that children are protected and this thing doesn't happen Especially since the adolescence TV show as well obviously before so but it is something to be aware of anything It's something to be mindful of that your own children don't go through this and if

they're quiet and secluded, make sure that they're not being brainwashed by something. They're just sat in their rooms online looking at and reading over and over again because it takes not actually that much for it to go into someone's mind if they start holding hold of them and taking them and then thinking that that actually is the way the world works and it really isn't. So communicate with your children talk to them and make sure that they're not affected by this and please if anybody is affected by it our resident counsellor Cency Walters details are across the screen. Thank you for tuning in to this very interesting and very

important episode we would love it if you could share this with your friends with your colleagues with your whatsapp group To get us out there we have some really great topics that we like to discuss and yeah check us out on Spotify, Apple podcasts, Amazon, YouTube obviously YouTube wherever you get your podcasts and you can also follow us on Instagram and you can follow along with my glow up for the next 12 weeks. That's right and don't forget to check us out on the social media platforms to find out about this week's wine, the wine tasting, Sadie's glow up and future episodes that are coming up. Thank you so much, we don't have any listener stories today because as well it is a very

sensitive topic however we really do hope you enjoyed the episode and please get involved in the conversation. So cheers and thank you for tuning in to Drinking Wine and Talking Shit.