Dudes on Dudes with Gronk and Jules - The REAL Story behind the Miracle on Ice plus NHL Insider Stories!

Episode Date: February 22, 2026

Jim Craig tells the real story behind the Miracle on Ice, and then we hear stories from Paul Bissonette and Ray Bourque about their playing days in the NHL!Support the show: https://hoo.be/dudesondudesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and maximize game performance with enhanced overclocking. Win the tech search. Power up at Lenovo.com. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? Evidence has been made to fit.

The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, on the Iheart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Special Agent Regal. Special Agent Bradley Hall.

In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, it's so interesting.

host of the Spirit Daughter podcast where we talk about astrology, natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change. Dance with the breakdowns. The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves. So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast starting on February 24th on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast. Welcome to games with names. I'm Julian Edelman,

and we got a brand new compilation highlight reel starting now. Now, Jim Craig on the real Miracle on Ice Story. How was Herb pregame? Like, was he a speech guy, or did he just give you keys? Did he rile you guys up? Never swore. Yeah.

Right? Extremely prepared, right? I mean, every detail is incredible. But the speech that you hear in the movie Miracle is basically what he did. And he was our confidence. You know what I mean? They're ripe. They're ready to be beaten.

You guys have earned this, you know, all the things. But he never said you're going to win. So it's really interested in words. When you pay attention to what actually is being said, there is a way to beat this team. You guys have the ability, you know what I mean? But you're not going to just do this and beat them. You got to execute. You got to do it.

Yeah. Wait, so the movie speech is actually fairly close. Very close. Yes. Wow. Is that story where he made you guys run after the... Skate. Skate.

Sorry, I'm a football guy. Skate. When he had you guys skate after the match or... The Norway game. The Norway game. How many did you do? So the Bart is really interesting. This basically talks about trends before they come have it.

Yeah. So Her Brooks is challenged. just kind of put this in perspectives, right? They didn't want them to be a coach. They wanted Parker or Billy Clary. So he had to convince him to be coach. Then the U.S. hockey was okay with preparing to compete, not win. And there's a huge difference.

So when we talk about underdog versus a winning underdog, is either you're, you know, I'll go to companies when I speak to them. I'll say, okay, where are we? Are you guys preparing to win or compete? Are you looking to be bought or are you acquiring, right? Because it's one or the other, right? Jules, we played 61 games before the Olympics. No other Olympic team had ever played more than eight.

Yeah. We played 47 of those 61s on the road. We did it in four months. The NHL played 80 games in nine, right? And so we practiced the day of a game. If he didn't like how we played during the game, We practiced after the game. And it always comes down to the same thing.

I always ask people, what's the most important thing in time management? What would your answer be? Productivity. It's knowing how much time you have. Knowing how much time you have. You can't be productive unless you know how much time you have. Herb Brooks had six months to get this hoggy team ready to beat the greatest team in the world. Right.

And so the tactics and the way he did things were based on how much time he had. right so here we are we're playing the Norwegians we're playing we're getting killed as far as a schedule goes we're going back and forth the accommodations we had is you had three guys to a room two guys got a bed and one guy didn't and how that was decided was if you were the smallest guy you got the car yeah right you're hanging stuff inside the locker room you're lugging all your own gear you're trying to get it clean you know so now we're playing a team that we think we're better than that And so we play, don't take it really that serious, we tie it. The trend is Brooks knows we're going to play them in the Olympics.

It's going to be the same thing. The Olympics back then wasn't set up for television. It was the real Olympics. Yeah, yeah. Right? So it was how many goals for, how many goals against, you know, and everything was metriced. You guys beat the Russians. Right. And you could have not placed the next week.

Exactly. Yeah, crazy. So Herb says, you know, this is a bad trend. You can't not take anybody nothing. So even though we tied into the Norwegians, he knew we were going to play him in the Olympics. And so he stopped the trend from becoming a habit. And we skated and skated.

But what he was doing that the miracle movie didn't really do is one of our best players was a guy named Mark Johnson. Mark Johnson. Yeah. And Mark Johnson's dad was an incredible coach. It's a great day for hockey. Yeah, great day for hockey, right? You know, totally two different personalities.

you know, Mark's dad was positivity. Brooks was, you know, more toughness, right? And I think Herb wanted to break Mark that day and let him know that his dad wasn't coaching him. So we skated and skated until Mark Johnson slammed his stick against the boards. That's how it really happened. Yeah.

So you see this Ocalihan fight versus McClanahan in the movie, right? And if you really watch that clip, you'll see how four or five times that was going to be stopped. But as it plays through, now Brooks knows what he has to do where the problems are, right? Because if not, people are going to split up

and team up. And this conflict will continue to go on. So I really think conflict is a really important thing with every team. You know, to let it happen so that you can figure out what goes on. Now, why did Herb choose you?

I think it's the winning underdog that I don't think he knew how I would I don't think he knew if I would win in the biggest situations, but he knew I wouldn't be nervous. You didn't take the test?

Well, that's a much more complicated thing. So here's a deal. He has this take-home test. It's pretty simple. I'm living with a team doctor, Dr. Nagabots. And my mother had just passed, and so I used to call home every night checking him with my father.

Yeah. And this one that I called home, he was crying he still had my mother's clothes in the closet he just lost his job and I felt really guilty about chasing my career and not helping out the family so yeah you know so that night I decided if I don't take the test I had made a promise to my mother she said listen no matter what happens to me if you have a chance to represent our country you have to promise me you will and you won't turn pro so I made that promise and so all of sudden now I said well if I don't take this test Herb Brooks will send me home and then I'll

just do whatever that does right but the brilliance of Herb was I live with the team doctor the team doctor told her of everything that was going on and all he cared about is could I do my job and so in his own way he wanted people that would be more interested in the team than themselves and by showing that you know my team was my family, right? And so I think it really showed him a lot. So he asked me a question. It was really interesting, two questions. He said, Jimmy, what can I do to help? And I said, well, my father needs a low. So Herb worked to the people in Minneapolis to figure out how to get a loan. So that kind of made me feel better. And the second question is, he says, can you do your job? I said, I can do my job.

Hell yeah. Yeah. So taking that test is a little different. But this is a little different. But this he did ask if they could do it the way it did because it kind of fit my character, you know, so. Next, Paul Dissonette breaks down what really starts a hockey fight. At that time, like, there was no social media. So you were getting, there was really no way to escape it. You'd get beat up. You'd get on the bus.

You'd travel four hours that night to the next city. And you'd kind of just be sitting there in your seat, like half concussed, you know, wondering like, oh, my God, I got to do this again tomorrow night. Take us through your journey, your hockey journey. played 12 years, you battled back and forth from, you know, the AAAs to the bigs. I'm sorry if I fuck up the terminology. Yeah. And so take us through your journey.

Yeah. So I was a pretty decent junior player. I was a defenseman. I actually was able to represent my country playing under 17 for Team Ontario. And then under 18 was Team Canada. I played a both of them. World Championship was able to win gold both times, was drafted by the Pittsburgh. Penguins and gotten a little bit of trouble early on in my career. Like you go from living with

a billet family and junior to all of a sudden you sign a contract, you have money, you're living on your own and, you know, probably was drinking and partying a little bit too much. So I started off my career and professional in the ECHL, basically the lowest league and slowly worked my way up. And after getting in a little bit more trouble, basically was in the coast and thought my career was over and then from at that point i was a defenseman and they they called me up to the hl and they said we're going to make you a fourth line fighter and i had a decision to make at that point in time whether i wanted to do that or stay stubborn and stay as a defenseman and i said you know fuck it if this is my only path to maybe get into the nchl i'll do it so i started scrapping um

i got beat up a lot i had back-to-back seasons where i fought 30 times and guys at that time in the a were taking steroids i was getting the shit kicked out of myself and um eventually just from playing that position and sticking at it, I ended up finally making the bigs with Pittsburgh. What a team to make it, though? Unreal. I got to play with Sidney Crosby, of Gennie Malcoli, Mark Andre Fleury.

You know, just those memories alone were unbelievable, even though I was only there for about 26 games, played 15. And then the following season, I was old enough where I got sent down, but I could get picked up by waivers. So I got to go over to Phoenix, who put in a claim for me and played five years there, lived out my dream, ended up starting Twitter when I was there,

and that's where the whole social media career started, and then ended up finishing off my career in the American Hockey League. So I was one of those guys where I was a borderline NHLer, and I was just grateful to be there and was able to play with so many amazing teammates and made so many friends in Arizona, one of which is another Boston guy, Keith Yandel, who's now on our Spit and Chick-Chicclet's podcast. but yeah, it was a world win.

Grateful to be there and just grateful to transition it into media and stick around the game and also have a purpose after my playing career. Yeah, I mean, you clearly did that. I mean, you still played 12 years at a professional sport. Yeah. And then you did something amazing where you didn't just become a Canadian kid that went back to the house and did nothing with his life. You did something else and now you're known for something else.

than being an athlete. Yeah, I'm always interested in more in what life has to offer. So as much as I love my hometown of well in Ontario, I always knew there was more out there and more I wanted to do. The same reason why at 16 years old when I was drafted to junior,

I moved away from home and I lived with the Billet family, I never even called home for the first three weeks while we had training camp and stuff. Like I dove right in. I didn't get homesick because I knew that, you know, if you wanted to achieve anything in life, you're going to have to, you know, go outside your comfort zone and do it. And I was also, like, things happened for a reason too.

Like, I was in Pittsburgh, which is a, you know, a very respected organization. And not to say Arizona wasn't, but Arizona was a team where they, they didn't mind getting any type of publicity. So I was able to start out a Twitter account and be an absolute donkey online. Like, with a shit that I was doing and saying and tweeting, I was going on local radio stations and like they hooked me up with this girl bibby jones so i guess i'm actually eskimo brothers with gronk um hate to throw them under the bus but she actually posted a she actually posted a photo of them and then she asked me for a photo and to post and i was like i don't think i want that

smoke right and then she went on the local radio the next morning and put me on blast oh yeah just all what year is this oh this is like probably like 2011 oh my so the sure early it's early it's early Twitter. So the shit that I was able to get away with and grow my own personal social channels based on playing in Arizona and the fact that they wanted publicity, it just worked out perfectly. And that's kind of what got me my start into the media where I started getting more opportunities and offers to do these one-off videos. And then by the time I retired, I got my buddy here Pasha. I dove right into it. I did this film project called Biz Does BC. So yeah, is it awkward? And it was it, you know, it was very silly at the time,

but it taught me a lot about what I needed to know in the backside after retiring. So just a world win of a career in a transition, but wouldn't change it for the world. Fucking, it's been fun to watch. Like, I didn't have the playing career that you had. I was in the press box. I had more healthy scratches in my career than games played.

Yeah, but you still made do with what you had. That's it. And that's what you continue to preach when you talk. I mean, it's also a lesson. for like a lot of kids out there like everybody drafted when they're playing junior were probably the stars of their team right but you know at a certain point you're not going to be the star and you have to make a sacrifice are you okay being the fourth line peasant who's getting healthy scratched if you're not willing to put your ego aside there's other guys who will and there's

positions for those guys so i'm glad at the time i was able to make that decision it just kind to happen naturally. Like I, you know, who knows, maybe going back if it would have happened again, it was the wrong day. Maybe I would have been stubborn about it. But just grateful that that's the path I chose and I was accepting of that and it led to all this. That's what people don't realize is the different ego slots in the locker room for a professional

athlete. Being a role player, you have to swallow your pride, do everything, have mental toughness, do what's best for the team when. It may not be best for you. and be that role guy and love doing that. The fullback going out and blowing out his head every day in practice, like knowing that he'll never touch the ball. But that's a big thing.

Talk us through that transition mentally when you go from defensemen to fourth line fighter. Like, and how does that transition go? Did you go to boxing camp or like how the fuck? So even when I was playing junior, I liked handling my own business. but that would be about five, six times a year and normally against other guys who were playing more.

So they weren't like just specifically heavyweight scrappers. So it was hard just because I was getting used to fighting these guys who like some guys were on steroids and they were just a lot more experience have been doing it since they were kids. So yeah, I took boxing lessons in the summertime

and prepared as much as possible. But it was hard. And at that time like there was no social media. So you were getting, there was really no way to escape it. You'd get beat up. You'd get on the bus. You'd travel four hours that night to the next city.

And you'd kind of just be sitting there in your seat, like half concussed, you know, wondering like, oh my God, I got to do this again tomorrow night. And so it was a definitely a transition and a hard process to start to understand. But it just taught me a lot about, like, adversity and how to deal with that type of stuff and really prepared me for what was to come for after my career. So great life lessons to learn, like getting the, shit kicked out of yourself. Yeah. You got to walk us beat for beat on how a fight goes down in hockey. As casual, as casual, like, is it a fucking look? Is it, are you guys talking to each

other on the ice? Is it like just, is it just drop them and fucking go? So what is this? Walk us through this. So the reason I love to do it the most was to protect my teammates, especially when they were being taken advantage of. And that was the one thing that made it a lot easy. year when I was going through all that and, you know, fighting 30 times year for the first time is how appreciative your teammates are. And so, you know, let's say one of our skill players gets ran by one of these types of players. It's what? Ran, like, let's say he goes back for a puck and that guy takes a run and, like, lays out a big hit on him.

Like, there's nothing more than I want to get on the ice and go challenge that guy to get retribution for that hit he just throw through. Or if he's, like, slashing him and trying to take advantage of him. of them. So that to me is where I would go on the ice, tap them on the shin pads and say, hey, let's go, motherfucker. Or maybe, you know, we are down 3-1 at home and, you know, the energy in the building is flat and our guys aren't really going. I'm trying to provide a spark to our team. Like, let's get this fucking crowd into it and let's get going. That would be another time where I would line up at a face off and ask a guy to go. So most of the time,

it was just tapping a guy in the shin pads and saying, hey, let's, let's throw down. And what, do they ever say now? Yeah. Like, typically, if your team's ahead, you don't want to lose momentum. So you don't want to get the power play. You don't want to get penalty. Yeah, because especially if I'm chasing around the ice and I'm tapping them on the shin pads, then I would have gotten an instigator penalty.

So you have to be a little bit more subtle about it where like you're like off a faceoff is when you just verbally say, hey, you want one. And half the time a guy whose team has a lead will be like, no, coach said no, coach said no. And my coach would say the same thing to me. He'd go, biz, we got all the momentum, leave it alone. and it sucked because sometimes the guy would be tapping you on the shin pad

and kind of calling you out in front of your crowd and some people they don't give a fuck about them one man they paid for their ticket and they want to see people get their face punched in so that sucked but oftentimes then that guy if he really wanted one then he would take a run at one of my teammates and then it was like okay now it's no more questions asked we're fucking going yeah now what's the difference between a fighter and an agitator because we just had Sean Avery on. Yes. And I just want to clarify.

Talk about another guy who had a great transition out of playing. He's fucking doing another Nolan movie. He is, he is an unreal actor. He's killing it. He's very disciplined too. He's part of my neighborhood watch for my daughter's house. He lives in the same neighborhood. And so you remember that TMZ,

a TMZ video that came out of him yelling at the kid. Yes. That was right by my house. No shit. Yeah, he's gotten in a few Donnie Brooks off the ice. He's gone to fold. Yeah. Yeah,

yeah. He, I love having them up there, but it makes my kid feel safe. And he's doing all the jihitsu stuff too. Now he's doing jihitsu. Yeah, he's like,

he's too pretty to be an agitator, though. He was, he was probably one of the best ever to, to agitate. I mean, I know you had him on recently. He talked about the Broder stuff. Sean would say some insane shit to people on the ice.

Like places that I would not go. Like, if, like, if, if, yeah, Just some of the shit he said, your jaw would drop and you'd be like, oh my God.

I wouldn't want to be in a relationship if I was playing against Sean Avery. Like I might even divorce my wife before I played against him just to avoid the type of insults that he would throw. But he was very good at at like picking his spots and then knowing when to rile the other team up and then not fighting. So he was a master of his craft. I don't think he left the league with a ton of friends, but I don't also think he gives a shit. He runs a tight ship. He's got a tight group and that's all he cares about. Yeah.

So the fighter and the agitator is different. Yeah. Like he was also a very good player. When he focused on playing, I think he was a very reliable third line player. And even in some cases, he could go up and down the lineup. Like if you needed Sean to play on the first line for a night,

he could fit in. Maybe not sustainably for a 20 game stretch. But for me, I was just more of a knuckle dragger where, I mean, the most minutes I ever played in the game, I'll never forget it. It was 11 minutes in Edmonton. I had two assists that game.

And I felt like I needed to be in a body cast the next day. Because even playing 11 minutes and keeping up to these world class athletes, like that was just not my, not my jam. So I was comfortable with my five to six minutes. Knuckle dragon, fourth line, dumping and dump it out. Hey, boys, change it up. Let's go. Are you watching film of fighting guys, like guys that you potentially,

fight like I know this guy's he's gonna pull my jersey probably give me a right hook or something so fortunately enough for me at the time where I started doing it like YouTube was a thing and then slowly social media started coming in so I could study that way where the olden days they had to find like the VHS tapes and cut ups and also I started fighting in a time where like the American League actually probably had more of the tough guys in the NHL because they were slowly weeding out that style in the

NHL where now it's a lot more organic and there's not as many heavyweights. Like guys like Tom Wilson are still very efficient because they can play and their heavy weights. So fortunately for me when I was in the NHL, I wasn't having to scrap the old fighters of the past where they would grab on and they would just go punch in a face match where there was no defense. None. It was.

I watch it every time. Like these guys take fucking two or three off the face and just keep going. And I was more of a defensive fighter where you look back and I'm just so grateful. If I was playing in the 70s, like my nose would be on the other side of my head. Yeah. And I probably would be like eating through a tube at this point. So just a different era. And I guess to answer your going back to your question, the difference between an agitator is somebody who doesn't necessarily have to fight all the time, but can get under people's skin, play the game and also handle his business.

Sure. Next, Ray Bork on his shocking trade. from the Bruins to the average. When you got traded, how was that experience? Now, was that a mutual? I asked. How you asked. Yeah, so like I was talking earlier,

how the struggles had been, you know, for quite a while. And it was the hardest, hardest thing I ever had to do in terms of my hockey career is asked to leave Boston, call Harry Sinden, he was at the general manager's meetings in Florida. And I called them, I said, Harry, I said, you know, I've decided that I've got to go somewhere to compete, to put myself in a different environment to see if I, you know, first of all, if I still got it. And to try to win again, or to compete to win, to get somewhere to have hope that a team, you know, we could get somewhere.

So I told them I wanted to go to Philadelphia. I didn't want to go in a Western conference. I was, at the time, we were building our big house here in Boston. And I wanted to be able to commute, come back when the schedule allowed me to. And I thought Philadelphia, looking at the Eastern Conference, had the best opportunity. And I made that very clear to Harry. And he was like, okay, I hear you. And I knew Reggie Lemlin was a goalie for the Bruins.

That is one of my best friends that he was goalie coach for the Flyers. So I knew everything that was going to be. on on their side and I do I thought I knew what was going on on my side and it just happened that there was more teams involved at the end and I I knew this because I'm having dinner one night with my agent and my wife and Steve Casper and his wife and René Angelou calls me Selend Dion's husband back in a day. I don't don't know if you remember how he spoke. Hey, Ramon,

Camussevo, see you, do you remember me? We played golf together in Montreal, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, René,

is, yeah, I remember, because him and Pierre Lacroix, the general manager for the Aves, were best friends. They grew up together. They talked every day.

And he says, Pierre does not know I'm calling you. He says, I hear you might get traded. Colorado would be an amazing place. And so I'm like, yeah, right.

Pierre doesn't know. You're calling me, right? You talk every day. So anyways, I knew Colorado was involved. Dave Elliott played for St. Louis back then that had played with the Bruins. He called me, he says, St. Louis would like to know if you come to St. Louis. I'm like, that's not where I want to go. I knew New Jersey was involved.

Detroit was involved. So I knew there was other teams involved. So we're playing a flyers some after Saturday afternoon game. The last game I played with the Bruins. And I, Reggie Lemlin in the morning says, Ray, it's a done deal. You're going to, you'll become a Philly. So I'm like, great.

So the puck ends. I'm on the ice. The end of the game. And the puck's just rolling right for me. And the buzzard goes off. So I pick up the puck and I'm like, okay. So I got the puck for the last game. I play with the Bruins and all that stuff.

So then after the game, I'm looking for Harry Senda. And I think it's a done deal. I can't reach Harry. Ended up calling me later that night. Says sit tight. There's other teams involved. I said, you know where I want to go. He says, yeah, but we'll see.

He says, don't come to the rink Sunday. If it's not done by tomorrow, if it's not done by the next day, don't come. We're playing Ottawa on the Monday. He says, stay away from the rank until it's done. So he calls me, I got a call later that night at the end of the, the senator's game telling me that I'm going to Colorado. But in warm up that night, Dave, Dave Andichuk was pulled off the ice. and warm up and he calls me he says ray they just pull me off the ice i'm probably going with you

where are we going i said i have no clue dave i haven't heard nothing yet so we both end up going to colorado together um so it was but it was an amazing uh i've never played with so many french guys in my life um and the whole because you know Quebec Nordiques are those that's a team in 96 that moved to Denver yeah to become the avalanche and they want to the cup in 96 the first year they were there they were ready to pop when they moved from Quebec they were friggin ready to roll and so they won the cup there then they competed they got to the semis pretty much every year but could never really get over the hump until 2001 so so that's how the deal went down so you get traded and earlier in the interview you go you know

this was the best team i ever played for how is that dynamic going when you're a fucking legend everyone knows you as Mr. Bruin. You're the Boston Bruins. You're the captain of the Boston Bruins. How was it going in and re-calibrating yourself to a new locker room? Because that's tough. I don't know if I could do that. I didn't leave after like 10 years because I didn't want to go and learn new people.

I didn't want to learn new system. That's like that's a very big thing, especially when you've been in somewhere for 20 plus years. You know what you're doing. You know what I mean? It's like being a rookie again in a, little bit of a facet, which is completely different because you're Ray Bork and you know, but you're learning guys for the first time in an uncomfortable environment that you've never

been in. How was that dynamic? Well, walking into that room, first of all, was really weird. Are you like Banks when you had joined Mighty Ducks? I'd have to watch that again. I was, he was this Banks. I was asked to play in that movie just to come, you know, they had a cameo of, I think Luke. Luke Rubbitey and I don't who the other guy was, but there's two guys and I was asked, I'm like, I'm not flying LA for the math. So, but I got to Calgary. So Dave and I took the plane at 7 a.m. on the Tuesday morning, we're playing in Calgary that

night. So we, they sent a plane for us. It couldn't have been the smallest jet that you've ever had. We had to stop in Kansas City to refuel. And we're both in like, he's six, and I'm like, I'm six, but we're like this and the plane all friggin' bundled up with our equipment, our sticks, our clothes. And it's like, it was so uncomfortable.

We get to Calgary around 2 p.m. their time. And then we have a little press conference, a quick bite to eat. I try to sleep for maybe an hour or whatever. I can't sleep. So I end up at the rink at 4 o'clock. You know, I'm the first got to rink. I walk in and right there is 77 and an Avalanche jersey. It was so friggin' weird, man.

Yeah. It was weird. And then as the guys come in, I greeted everybody at the door and introduced myself. But they got me for my play, but they also got me, I think, more for leadership and what I brought in other areas as well. Because talent, they needed maybe another voice in there as well. Thanks for listening. Remember to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new. episode and every Sunday for another games with names highlight.

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Lenovo.com. Let creatives create. This is Special Agent Regal, Special Agent Bradley Hall. In 2018, the FBI took down a ring of spies working for China's Ministry of State Security, one of the most mysterious intelligence agencies in the world. The Sixth Bureau podcast is a story of the inner workings of the MSS and how one man's ambition and mistakes opened its fault of secrets. Listen to the Sixth Bureau on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast, Doubt, The Case of Lucy Letby,

we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed. What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe? Oh my God, I think she might be innocent. Listen to Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hi, it's Jill Wintersene, host of the Spirit Daughter podcast, where we talk about astrology,

natal charts, and how to step into your most vibrant life. And today I'm talking with my dear friend, Krista Williams. It can change you in the best way possible. Dance with the change, dance with the breakdowns. The embodiment of Pisces intuition with Capricorn power moves. So I'm like delusionally proud of my chart. Listen to the Spirit Daughter podcast, starting on February 24th on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcast.