Dumb Blonde - Dumb Blonde Podcast: Joel Madden

Episode Date: March 16, 2026

Bunnie Xo sits down with Joel Madden of Good Charlotte for a candid conversation about fame, family, and the journey that shaped him. Joel reflects on the band’s early days, growing up in a strict religious household, and how navigating addiction, success, and self-awareness helped him find balance in both his career and personal life.He also opens up about life with Nicole Richie, fatherhood, and the influence Lionel Richie has had as a mentor and father figure. Joel shares the dynamic between him and his twin brother Benji Madden, why mental health and family come before fame, and why he respects the transparency Bunnie Xo and Jelly Roll bring to their own journey.Joel Madden: WebsiteWatch Full Episodes & More: YouTubeSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

These days, I'm all about quality over quantity, and that goes from my closet and my house. If something isn't well made and versatile, it's just not worth it to me. That's why I love quince. The fabrics feel elevated, the cuts are thoughtful, and the pricing actually makes sense. They use premium materials like European linen, silk and organic cotton, and everything is designed to be simple, wearable, and last season after season. They also work directly with ethical factories and cut out the middleman, so you're not paying for a brand name. Just really good quality pieces. The stitching holds up.

The fabric keeps their shape, and these are things you reach for over and over. I've been getting their bedding and towels for my house, and they feel so good. Super soft, really breathable, and they still look nice after washing, which I love. It just makes everything feel more put together without spending a fortune. Stop waiting to build the wardrobe. And honestly, the home you actually want. You don't need a ton of options. You just need pieces that work.

Right now, go to quince.com slash B-U-N-N-N-I-E for free shipping and 365-day returns. That's a full year to wear it and love it. And you will. Now available in Canada, too. Don't keep settling for clothes that don't last. Go to Q-U-I-N-C-E dot com slash bunny for free shipping and 365-day returns. Quince.com slash bunny. After winter's stillness, spring invites you to open things up with purest spring

collection, you can explore sense inspired by place, sunlit terraces, blooming gardens, open air drifting through familiar rooms. It's not about starting over. It's about layering in something new, a small sensory shift that refreshes your space and how it feels to be in it. Open the door to spring with Pura. Is this thing on? My Y2K heart is beating like a glow stick because I am so excited that Joel Madden is finally on the podcast. Thank you for being here. Thanks for having me. Dude, I've like, I've wanted you on the podcast forever. And then I saw you started your own podcast and I got jealous because I was like, oh man, he's never going to get on the podcast now because he has his own. I was always going to come to this podcast. I've been following it. I really love

what you do. And, um, you know, I, uh, I just think I love the, I love talking. Yeah. What made you start a podcast because I got to watch a couple of your episodes because so jacobi just came on the podcast yeah um and i watched you guys as episode together and i was just like you know what joel's made for this like i think you really are made for podcasting i think i'm just wired that way um what i do on the podcast is kind of what i do in real life um i'm more interested in probably like long conversations than short ones even though little exchanges are nice I'm a pretty emotionally intends with the word introspective person. So I like to think a lot.

Yeah. And I like to analyze a lot. It's the Pisces in you. It's Barry Pisces. And then I either find myself like a Pisces. There's the lower fish, which is more like introverted. and the upper fish which is extroverted. And I have both because sometimes I want to talk to someone for a long time.

And then if I feel comfortable and I feel like I can be vulnerable because it's a vulnerable thing to do to ask people questions. And then I don't do well if I don't feel that way so I can close up, which I think actually is the early parts of my career when I didn't really understand myself probably, I probably looked a lot poutier and a lot more like. were just so introverted. Because I was so freaked out by having to be extroverted, even though that existed in me. Yeah. So it was like a constant wrestling match between those two. But now I feel like the podcast in the show has given me a really nice outlet to like talk to people, which I really

love to do. Yeah, you do a great job at it. Do you ever get nervous before somebody comes on? Yeah. Because I've been doing this eight years and sometimes I still get butterflies in my stomach. And what you were just saying, there's sometimes that I will rock a fucking interview. And then another time I'll bomb the interview and I'm just like, what happened? And like, I think about it all night long because I'm like, why did I not connect with this person? Do you get like that? I do. I find it going away more and more and more, maybe with age, maybe. Yeah, I'm your, I'm, we're the same age. Or we're the same age? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I thought you were 10 years younger than me. I wish. I will be after I get this facelift. I'll be looking 10 years younger. You're doing great.

You're doing great. No, I just turned 46 last week. Happy birthday. Thank you. I like 46. It's awesome, right? It's a cool year. It's great. I feel like we have enough wisdom, but we're still cool. Yeah, and it's different. 46 in 2026 is different than 46 in like 1996.

Yeah, it was like golden girls era. It is. It's like I used to think that it was old and maybe it was me or maybe it was actually at the time because of where we were at. But I don't feel like slow at all. And I feel like I'm. Pretty plugged in. I mean, I have teenagers, so that keeps me in touch, I think. But yeah, I don't know. I think you're as old as you feel maybe. Yeah, absolutely. I tell my whole team, they're all younger than me. And I'm just like, I don't feel like I'm 46. I feel like maybe a 28, 29 year old trapped in my body sometimes because I still have so much energy. And like, I don't know. I just, 46 to me just doesn't seem old anymore now that I'm here. So do you feel the same way? I don't feel old at all. Yeah. I mean, and I don't mind being old. Yeah. I'm no, I'm not hiding.

You've earned your stripes. Definitely not hiding my age. Right. But I do feel like I need to be able to be my age. So I'd make decisions that feel age appropriate. Appropriate. You know, like I don't want to go on stage unless I am 46 on stage. Right.

You know what I mean? Right. I don't want to go on stage and prance around. And slam guitars around or whatever. Like sometimes you do. Like, however you are on stage is how you are. But I do definitely feel. feel like there's something that maybe I thought you can only do it if you were young or something.

Maybe. I don't know. But now I kind of go like, if I can be me on stage and I don't have to pretend anything, then I can still go on stage. And I think that's how I feel about life. Like I want to go if I can't be a 46 year old dad of two teenagers who's, you know what I mean? Like I feel like our, maybe our business or our industry or entertainment or even just maybe it's my thing. It could just be me. Like that's, I'm definitely open to that just being me. But I feel like sometimes the world, it makes you feel like you're supposed to want to be younger or look younger. It tries to put you in a box.

And I'll never let society put me in a box. I kind of all mind being old. Ever. No, I don't either. Because I think we make it look good, you know? And I don't think there's any reason to ever. What is the word that they that they use all the time? It's not age shaming, but it's, I forget what it is, where they are always like telling

you that you have to act your age. And it's like, no, you don't have to act your age. Like we are a different breed. You know, like we came, we're gen. What are we, Gen Z? We're Gen X. Are we Gen X? Yeah, we're Gen X.

Is very, yeah. You're far off from Gen Z. Shit. It goes Gen X. It goes Gen X. It goes Gen X. Yeah. Millennials.

Yeah. Gen Z. Okay. I always get those mixed up. Yeah. I always get them mixed up. I believe Nicole is a millennial. Is she really? I think so. She's another person who has just aged so beautifully, still looks young. I mean, like, you lucked out. You guys, you guys are a hot couple. I got very lucky with her because she's way above my, uh, yeah, she's smart. She's beautiful. She's classy. You guys compliment each other. So she's, she's a one of a kind, one of one. Like,

I just feel like I lucked out with her. But she's a millennial. I say it all the time. I'm like, you're actually a millennial. 81, I think is, I think millennials started in 80.

So I'm 80. So I'm Gen. No, I think, are you sure? Give that a goog. We have to check that. Ask chat GPT.

Yeah, yeah. Ask Sunny. We're Sunny. Have you named your chat GPT yet? No. I named mine. Sunny.

We love her. She's, well, we think it's a her. We're not sure. She's 81. That's what that's, you're right.

Wow. So I was, I missed it by a year. You are. You're Gen X. Right. And she's a millennial. Yes.

I don't know why that matters so much, but it does. Yeah, yeah. It's just literally just a few months off too. This Gen X is kind of cool. I feel like we aren't like we're OG. We're the OGs. We aren't our stripes. So let's let's bring it all the way back because, you know, good Charlotte, just you

guys really paved the way for so many people. And especially the genre of music that you guys did. And we were just talking about that whenever we first started that, how you guys are like the OGs and I mean that I appreciate that but it's it's real so um you guys literally um have accomplished so much and for accomplishing so much as I was researching you last night I realized how like grounded you are and like how normal you are and you know when you think of rock stars you don't think of somebody who is as grounded and you know um introspective as yourself, which I really admire. But when you really think about it, that's what a real rock star is.

As somebody who can lead by example and also show younger generations of how you should be. How does that feel to kind of carry that weight on your, is it a weight on your shoulder? I think that's very nice. That's a huge compliment. So it's, so I have to say that because I think I live in my own, I think, I think, little reality, which is really small. And I think that's a really good question. I think I was different in my 20s, maybe. But I, if I, it's a, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, it's, so it's not an easy answer, right? Right. It's, um, if I think, there's layers to it. There's layers to it the way, the way, I guess, if I'm trying to explain how I feel from my perspective,

when you put it that way, which is really, which I, like again, I said, is a really nice compliment. I think I grew up in a very simple place in way. and I had a very unique family life. And I think that set me up to probably go in like one or two directions. And so I think growing up in the middle of nowhere, my mom was super religious. I wasn't allowed to do anything. My dad left when I was young. All those things kind of like, just the top line stuff.

It's a lot more complicated than that as any way. one who knows like like life is so much more complicated and there's so many different um you know my story will be a bit different than my mom's story her perspective she'd say this i'd say that my dad would have said this so i think there's a lot of like everyone's living their own personal life inside of a family life even if it's like tragic or troubled i always say that you can grow up in the same house a different home yes because my little sister will tell you a completely different story of growing up. And I'm like, I'm like, where to, you know, so I get it. But your experience is yours. Exactly. And your memory is yours. And I think, you know, I will,

so all that to say, by the way, no answer I give you today is going to be short. It's okay. I don't mind. I'm a, I like listening to you talk. I ramble on. No, we like it. But. Well, let's do this. Let's circle back to where, this all started and go back to your home life because that's actually like a little tidbit that I couldn't find because I can't find you don't talk about yourself a lot. You talk about Good Charlotte a lot. Yeah. And when I was researching you last night, I was like, I cannot get anything on this man because he doesn't really open up so much. So to hear you say that you grew up in a super religious household, like I relate to that because I grew up in a super Southern Pentecostal household. Yeah, we were like Southern Church of God. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, I never knew that about you guys. So it was very evangelical. Yes. And everything was, was kind of the foundational belief system was not very cause and effect, you know, because I still have a lot of faith. And I would say that I still have religion, but I don't believe in religion as an excuse to, it's not a get out of jail free card. Right. So working on yourself and growing is something that like you're going to do either way,

because nature is we grow. But if you learn how to grow and you learn what that even means, you can actually really grow. And so what I found in the kind of religious structure that I grew up in was that was the reason for everything. And so like if you just pray for something, maybe it'll happen if God loves you. And if he doesn't, or it's not whatever. And I think there's actually this thing about like building things.

You can. And so what all that to say is I wasn't raised. to know how the world works. Right. It's always heaven or hell. There's no process. It's black or white. Yeah.

There's no causality. There's no process. Yeah. So when you're raised in a house like that, you really are not given any tools or information to navigate life. And there's no hope unless. Cope. Coping skills and all that stuff. And so because any kind of science or anything is wrong.

It's actually not. So if you don't go to a Christian therapist, then you're not going to therapy because why would that therapist who spent decades becoming an expert on the brain or the emotional or this or that be a trusted source if they don't share the same faith as you? Which I don't believe. I don't believe that people who don't share the same faith can't. I've been in full home refresh mode lately because my house. went from feeling cozy to feeling a little chaotic stuff everywhere no real storage

nothing matching so I went on Wayfair and actually took the time to find pieces that worked for my space my style is kind of modern cozy and a little eclectic and I love that you can filter by size color price and reviews so you're not scrolling forever before my entryway was just a drop zone for bags and shoes now I have a console table with storage baskets underneath and it actually looks together when you walk in. I also grabbed closet organizers and lighter bedding for spring. And it honestly changed how the whole house feels. More functional, less stressful. The reviews helped me know exactly what I was getting. Shipping was fast. And for one of the bigger pieces,

I used the assembly option. So I didn't have to deal with it. It's just an easy way to upgrade your home so it looks better and actually works for your day-to-day life. Find furniture, decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget, head to wayfair.com. Right now to shop all things home. That's w-a-y-f-a-I-R.com. Wayfair, every style, every home. Okay, let me ask you something. Do you actually like your money? Because these big wireless companies act like that bill should be a personality trait. That's why I'm into Mint Mobile. You can get a premium wireless plan starting at 15 bucks a month, which is way less than what most people are paying for the same thing. You still get high-speed data, unlimited talk, and text on the nation's largest 5G network.

You're just not getting robbed for it. You can bring your own phone and number, activate with ESIM in minutes, and there are no long-term contracts, which I love because I don't want to be locked into anything. It's just a smarter, simpler way to do your phone plan and actually keep more of your money every month. So if you're tired of overpaying just because that's what you've always done, Mint Mobile is a really easy switch. I switched from a big carrier and the service fees feel the same. Fast data, clear calls. I'm just paying away less every month, which is my favorite part. If you like your money, MintMobile is for you. Shop plans at mintmobile.com slash bunny. That's mintmobile.com slash BUNN-N-I-E. Up front payment of $45 for three-month, five-gigabyte

plan required. Equivalent to $15 a month. New customer offer for first three months only. Then a full price plan options available. Taxes and fees extra. Cement Mobile for details. Cooperate and help one another. Absolutely. You know, and so all that to say, that, so if you have the extremely religious household coupled with mental health, addiction and all the other things that were there that contradict each other. It's a very, and then also poverty. So you have money problems, you have addiction problems, you have mental health problems, and then you have overtones of like explicit religious, all that is like the religious

trauma. Right. It's what it is. It's like the perfect. Because I have it too. Yeah. So it's the perfect recipe for someone to go forth into the world with a bunch of baggage, a bunch of issues, a bunch of unresolved things, a bunch of questions, and no know-know how

the world works, and how life works, and how what process is and how to, how does success work? And then also low self-esteem because when, you know, also neglect in the house, there's all kinds of stuff in the house. So there was just a big, messy bag of stuff there. And then I think we went we left home if fled home essentially at like 17 18 can we pause right there for a second when you talk about addiction and mental health in the household are you talking about yourself or not me okay so my family so my dad so it does run in the family yeah my dad was um open about your mental health too and i love that about you yeah um my dad was an alcoholic who he died from it um my family members which i don't feel it's important to

to say who for their own sake. But lots of, everybody, so many people were addicted to everything. So there was, there's all kinds of, every kind of addiction. So you had so many examples of things you didn't want to be or things that you were going to be very aware of. And I couldn't make sense of them until I was older and I saw addiction play out in my career with other people because when you go into music, there's tons of addicts around. It's a very, it's a, it's a, it's a industry that's very addiction friendly and so of all kinds.

So I was so surrounded and immersed in addiction growing up that it was a very familiar. So I also found myself being very attracted to and comfortable with, addicted people. So that was kind of my comfort zone because it was like normal. What you call home? That's home for you. healthy people. I was like, safe.

What the fuck are you? Get away from me. Because safety feel to somebody who has gone through trauma. Like you have somebody safe, like sets off the alarms. We're like, why is there no chaos going on? We need to tear some shit up in here,

you know? Yes. And so leave home. So you said you guys fled from home. Yeah. What does that entail? Because I fled from home too at 14. So my brother had ran away. My older brother had ran away when I was about 15. And we were very close. So it was very painful. And then my mom and us were always moving because we were always kind of, my dad had left, which was also very painful. And I was very angry. And then my mom, who struggled with a lot of health and mental health and all that, really.

struggled to keep it together. So we were always moving all the time. There was like, we get evicted, or we have to live with someone, or we're living with some people from church, or we're like, so we're moving around. And I got very good at like moving in like, we had this like astro minivan that like only two of the doors worked and the back doors. And we would like load all our shit in and we would move. And it was like literally like trash bags, a suitcase and like boxes. I still pack my houses and trash bags. You know, yeah, like put it all in the trash bag. Yeah.

Some nice trash bags now, but they're strong as hell. Yeah. I'm very good at moving. Yeah. But I'm also like very skittish about houses and moving and stuff. So it's funny. I've worked on it though. When you say skittish, what do you mean by that?

Like is like something freak you out in the house or do things have to be a certain way? I don't unpack for a very long time. Oh, because you don't feel safe enough. I don't feel like it's real. And it's so funny because we just. built our like forever home like our dream home and it took us a long time. Nicole's very loving, very patient, but she's had to deal with stuff. I don't think she's, she's very compassionate, but she doesn't always understand.

And over the years she's gotten to because she knows me and she knows my story. And so that's what we do with our partners. Yeah, you learn them. And you learn their little quirks and they come from stuff, you know. Yeah. And she's been very patient. but I always have to have one room in the house that's like still in boxes and it's stuff I can't and it's stuff I won't throw away and stuff you know and it's funny because like she's

it's it's like my thing but we have it we have it like it's a beautiful house but don't go in that room yeah skip Joel's room but it's like it's been work I've been working it out and like we're in a good place with it and it's like it's it's it's it's It's contained. You deserve to unpack. Yes. You know? You got to go back and hug your inner child and let them know that you deserve to unpack.

Absolutely. And I've been, you know, I've been in therapy now for 13, 14 years. And that's how long it takes for a lot of this stuff. Healing is not overnight. And I preach that on this podcast so much. I'm still, I feel like we're never healed. I feel like our journey is to learn and to just. keep healing through life.

Like it doesn't matter if I conquer one thing, the next thing pops up, you know. So I just feel like it's, we're always on this journey to learn and to teach people what we're learning along the way. Yeah. I think, I think it's self-esteem. You know, I think it's when you grow up in a place where there's a lot of unsafe or confusion or instability or. whatever it is. And your parents are trying their best or maybe they're not. I don't know. I think mine did.

I think mine were my parents were honest people with a lot of problems. And you have to think of how they were raised. And how they were raised. That's where I've had to put myself out with my parents. And generational trauma. Exactly. Is a real thing. Which is not an excuse. No, it's not. Because we're breaking generational curses. But at the same time, it does give, it helps us to heal to think of it in that aspect. Yeah, I don't think of anything as excuses. I think it's just information. Right. Yeah. And it helps you understand what that thing is, why that person is. Doesn't mean I have to accept it. Doesn't mean I have to be around it. It doesn't mean I have to, I can deal with it or not. That's the thing. The lie is that we have to like, like, we have to like make things work or like.

We have to forgive. Or forgive or accept. Like you can forgive and still never see someone again if you want to. Absolutely. I really believe in autonomy. And I think that you deserve to have the life you want to have and live in. And protect your peace at whatever cost it is. And have boundaries. And I think the goal in life is to get to a place where you need nothing because you have yourself.

Yeah. And that takes, there's like a piece of. of like, like, you want to have deep connected, meaningful relationships, but you want, like, I want that, let's say, like, with my marriage, you want to have a, you want to be together. You both have to want to be together. Right. You choose each other. Yeah.

That's what Jay and I say. We choose each other every day. Absolutely. And, you know, it's more complicated. I probably make it sound like it's, but, but like, because there's. Now, I love that you said that because I think a lot of the. youth needs to hear that because especially with this healing culture that we have like on TikTok and all that stuff everybody is like forcing forgiveness down people's throats and I think somebody

needs to say it like guess what you don't have you can forgive but you can also forget that person and they don't have to be in your life yeah or and forgive is even such a such a specific word like you can make peace with it there you go even better you know what I mean yeah and you can that version of whatever you want to call it, forgiveness is more like you don't have to carry it with you always. Yes. You know? And so that being said, I came to the, I think I came to the realization with my parents that I didn't feel I needed to forgive them because I actually didn't think they did anything wrong. I think they were negligent and they didn't know what they were doing.

And I came to an understanding of them that made me really love them. That's powerful. It is. But I can also be honest with them and show them what I've learned and hope that they could. I also believe in sharing something if we figured something out with people. So if we figured something out that worked for us or some information that really enlightened us that we should share it. And like that's, I have a great relationship with my mom now because it's very honest and I can share it with her. I'm like, hey, I kind of realize this.

And then she can take it. I'm like, do it. Don't need to tell me what you think about. Just take that and meditate on it and see like maybe you'll something will come. Yeah, chew on it for a little bit. And like we have a very kind of, we've got an evolved relationship. And then my dad, we had a really great relationship. We reconnected and reconciled the last 10 years of his life.

And we had a really nice, I really loved it. I had got so much joy out of it. And when I had been angry at him for so long, but I came to understand him, you know, and I accept him. and and and then and then i think i got a lot out of that because i think i have a really nice relationship with my kids and it's like a living vicariously because i'm getting to feel what like that relationship would have felt like you're going to be the dad you never got right and it's cool yeah which i want to talk about that later too um because i i love love love love how you

and nicoe kind of like i don't know if the word saved each other is the right terminology, but it just seems like when you guys united as one, you literally just became the best versions of yourself and the best parents. And that is, because she was going down one trajectory, you were going down one trajectory. And then it's like you guys have your baby girl. And, you know, somebody asked earlier, what's Nicole doing? I said she's being a mom, dude. Yeah. I was like that. And that's like the coolest thing you can do. I'm sure she's doing more than that. But it's like, that's like the coolest thing that you could say about Nicole Richie and you is that you guys literally just really buckled down with each other and just

created the safe space of your family. Yeah, I think I appreciate that. It's just sacred ground. Yeah. So, you know, the narrative is going to be the narrative. I'm super aware of the way the world works and the narrative of what Nicole or who she was before the, the, the, the, the, the, the us right because i understand also we live in people are interested in in these things um i don't fight it but i i do i will say that nicole has always been the person she is today yeah so i'm very i'm very um i'm her biggest fan and i was the from the first time i met her because i see someone who's very strong and has been through a lot and has the integrity and the self respect above to not have feel like I don't know the word but it's like there's an elegance to

um and a bit of a class to being above a narrative that everyone else has chosen for. you and she was never that narrative. Right. Regardless of some mistakes that she made when she was young like everyone. Oh, yeah. They got to run wild with them in that time period because- It was so disrespectful. It was very disrespectful to women.

The women were not protected whatsoever. They were not. No. And at the time, we all saw it too. Like at the time, like that was, it was, but there was no, there was no way. The public didn't have a say. So the narrative would become the narrative. and the people that were reading it could participate in it

or they could be like, I don't believe that. And certainly just like, but now people can say it. So things can build and there can become like the court of public opinion is real now. Yeah. Where it wasn't really back then like there was no social media. So whereas today when there's a narrative that feels like maybe that's not the whole story. Yeah. People can speak up when there's like these TikTok sleuths and there's people.

You know, there's all this stuff. And I'm going to tell you what. TikTok is like the FBI. You can really see like, you can really. Yeah, you can really like. So that being said, the person that I met is the person that I'm with. Yeah. And so I didn't save her.

Yeah. At the time, I also think we were young. We were in our 20s. And I was especially emotionally still like really underdeveloped and like not functioning as high as I was immature. And so I had my own work to do. But I think it was very clear and easy when you meet the person that you love. And when you have the things that I valued always at my core was like I want to meet a nice girl.

and settle down and have some kids and hopefully have a nice family. It was kind of the dream I always had because I didn't know what that felt like. Right. And so it was kind of like a far-fetched dream for me, but I still kind of like really hoped for it. And then, you know, we got together and we had our kids and we're now 19 years or this year will be 20 years in like December. Crazy. It would be 20 years since we, you know, met.

Yeah. And. Which in Hollywood, that is. is unheard of. It's kind of crazy. It happens, but it's very rare that you guys have this long lasting love. And I think how protective you are over her, like in every interview that I've seen, you're always very protective of her. And like, I don't know, you guys just didn't live your lives out loud. You guys kind of like sheltered yourselves. And you can see the big shift when you guys get together. So yeah, maybe saved each other wasn't the right word. But in a sense,

you guys really buckled in with each other. Whether you guys went through shit behind closed doors, none of it got leaked. Like, nobody knows any of the drama. And I think that's so fucking cool, because that's almost impossible to do with people that are of you guys a stature.

I agree. But I also, he's like, I don't know how we did it. But I think, like, you know, I think you guys are probably the same.

Oh, honey. I, listen, I blast our shit everywhere. But I own what we've been. through, you know? And like I talk about my past and I talk about things that my husband and I have been through. But I think you guys are coming from us. When you share, I think you're coming from a

place of helping people. Absolutely. And that's it. There's a lot of. So I think this is the same kind of integrity. Yeah. I don't think that I think that we're, we live in the world. We're completely aware of how of what the world is and we know that if we're not protective of our kids and our family that everyone else can just run a run can tell stories that'll get memorialized and become things that like even when you look on our like Wikipedia pages they're not half of it's bullshit like you know what I mean those but like that's what people do they like look up and they go oh this this they get information and you're like and like half of that's just kind of like what a press a tabloid story was a headline and then it got someone added it in or something

I don't know exactly how it works but it's like kind of bullshit yeah and I think you you become acutely aware of of what could when you're responsible for your kids especially like you're just kind of like it's trying to protect them from the world a little bit and at the same time you're trying to teach them how the world works and how we have to move through the world and it's not because we think we're this or we think we're that we're just aware of it yeah and um it's respectable though how you guys do move thank you yeah i think we just kind of manage that part of our life as like a stressor that we just try to manage with care and like you don't get it all right. I think when we were younger, we were like we felt like we had to do some things that we

now looking back at the time it was different. But now looking back, you're like, I wouldn't have fucking done a magazine of our wedding or our baby pictures. But at the time, it felt like. That was like the thing to do back then. Well, also they were hunting you. So you were kind of managing, you didn't have Instagram to go like, okay, here's the picture. Now it was just felt like it was this big tornado of just trying to.

So it was like a weird thing to experience. It was like you had to do it or they were going to do it without your consent. And you couldn't control it. And it was like it was just weird. Yeah, no, they bullied. The paparazzi bullied. They did. They ran.

You know, they were with Nicole. I remember when she was at the time, I think, my son had just been born. And he was in the, like, it was like weeks after he was born. A paparazzi rear ended her at a stoplight to try and have to get her out of the car. Like, they did that. Wow. It was crazy at the time.

With the baby in the car? Yeah. That's insane. It's insane. And no one, no one give fuck about it. Wow. Now there's like, there's, there's, there's been enough like law. There's been enough and there's public outcry when people see something wrong.

And that actually does affect how people move. How people move and what things could go to court or not like literally just on based on if something picks up steam or whatever. Like that shit is real. Like the social media of it all is a real thing. So at the time, no one gave a fuck about that. Yeah. She didn't even complain about it.

It was fucked up. But she was just like, you know, those kinds of things. that was the time, the 2000s, the early 2000s was like insane. It was insane like that. But anyways, we digress. I think that like we have always just tried to navigate it because to protect our family while also kind of being aware that if we complained about it, we would, you can't just be so out of touch that like you can't feel.

sorry for yourself because that's not how we feel. It's been more just like try to protect as much as you can so that your family has a shot at like some form of like a nice private life where your kids get to just grow up and be as normal as possible, even though I wouldn't say it's been totally normal. How do you feel about your daughter being in the press lately for wanting to change her name? Well, that's the thing, too, is like that, again, like, that's a narrative everybody ran away with because it gets clicks. If you, I even saw it and I was like, oh, my God, like, I think it was like the Daily Mail or something was like her transformation. She's been going by her middle name since she was in like first grade. Like, she chose it.

She went to school. One day she came home or we went to, we went to the open house night or whatever. And the teacher was like, Kate's doing great. She's so nice. And we're like, who's Kate? And they're like, your daughter, Kate. That's what she said her name was. And we were like, oh, she's going by her middle name now.

And then we went home and we're like, you go by Kate at school. And she goes, yeah, I like it. And we're like, okay, great. And then we, everyone who knows her calls her Kate. As long as you've known Kate, if you've known her since she was seven, she's been Kate. I love that you guys accepted it though. Oh, yeah. Her name is beautiful, by the way.

middle name. Yeah. Her name was beautiful. Yeah. I always said I want to get her name tattooed on my neck. But like it wasn't a big deal. It was just like, oh, cool. Like that's cute.

You're going by your middle name. That's sweet. And then there was no discussion. It wasn't a big deal. And then as long as, you know, for 11 years now, she's gone by Kate. So everyone knows her as Kate. If you know her, you know she's Kate. Right.

And people that don't know her would call her Harlow. and it was always kind of funny because like she it's kind of smart actually she she knows like if someone called her harlowe like they don't really know her yeah and uh it's kind of interesting it's like her alias a little bit yeah but she just did that when she was in first grade and it was never even a discussion so when that headline just popped up so they made it a headline because that was probably the most interesting thing about her turning 18 yeah was the world uh going like Who's Kate? Because they've always called her Harlow.

Yeah. But I think because she hasn't been out there, maybe it's interesting. But it's just funny. No one in our, none of us cared. She doesn't care. Yeah. But it was funny because like it's a big deal. She's 18, you know.

She's extremely, she's such a nice girl. Yeah. She's really smart. She's a lot like her mom. She is her twin. She's a, yeah, she's. she's beautiful like her mom. She's smart.

She's sharp. She's, and she's incredibly talented with, you know, what she loves, which is like fashion and design and things like that. She has a great eye.

And I'm excited to see what she does, what she chooses to do. What is it like being a dad? Like what, like becoming a father, just, you know, and we're going to get into

the good Charlotte stuff like that, but I just, I want to get to know you, you know, um, you know, you're this rock star and you're having these babies.

and you have a little girl to start. Like, what is that like when you hold your little girl for the first time? You guys know I'm all about making life easier, especially when it comes to money. That's why I've been using chime. It's fee-free banking that actually feels like it's built for us, not the big banks. There are no overdraft fees, no monthly fees, no minimum balance,

and you can earn up to 3% APY on your savings, which is way better than what I was getting before. It also helps you build credit without the stress, and because you listen to dumb blonde, you can get up to $350 when you sign up and set up qualifying direct deposits. Plus, the Chime card lets you build credit with your own money, no interest, no annual fees. It's just a simple way to keep moving forward financially. Chime is a sponsor of the show, but I use it and love how simple it is. Chime is not just smarter banking.

It's the most rewarding way to bank. Join the millions who are already banking. fee-free today. Head to Chime.com slash bunny. That's chime.com slash BUNN-N-I-E. It only takes a few minutes to sign up, and Dumb-Blon listeners can earn up to an

extra $350. Chime is a financial technology company, not a bank. Bank. Bank, card are provided by the Bank Bank or Stride Bank N-A. Optional services and products may have fees or charges. See chime.com slash fees info. Terms apply. Limited time only. Must open the new account and complete qualifying activities to earn rewards. Advertised annual percentage yield with Chime Plus status only.

Otherwise, 1% APY applies. No minimum balance requires. Chime card on time payment history may have a positive impact on your credit score. Results may vary. See chime.com for details on applicable terms. I've always been in awe of her. Ever since she was born, I've been in awe of her. She's really special. And I felt incredibly, always felt incredibly, what's the word?

Lucky? Lucky is a word, but it's beyond that. I feel, I've always been in all. all of her, she's special. I've always said, ever since she was born, first time I held her, I was the first person to hold her. And I knew she was special. And I felt in awe of that and that I got to be the person who gets to say I'm her dad

and to call her my daughter. I feel like it's been, I always say like my kids have made it, they've made it so easy to be a dad. They are such easy people. And so it's not been some big sacrifice to be their dad. Well, they're a product of their environment. Yeah. And it feels to me like I was given a gift from God, these kids,

because they are really cool, easy, fun. And they make me happy. They make me smile. they make me. And I've never worried about them. I mean, you worry when they're little about maybe they're just being, becoming a parent can be nerve-wrecking or whatever. And you just want to keep them safe and all that. But they're so smart. They know who they are. And I always give them, Nicole is, Nicole's like that. When you get to know her, you're not worried about her. She's, she's so sharp and she's so strong. And I feel like they got that. She gives off those vibes for sure.

Yeah. She doesn't give her off any. damsel and distress vibes. No, she's, she's definitely doing what she wants. And, um, I feel like my kids got a lot from her. So I, I, I just feel lucky. I feel like I've been the luckiest guy in the world, um, with my wife and kids. I love hearing you talk about your family. So let's circle back to you fleeing home. That's where we left off. How, fled home? How old were you when you left home? I think it was 18. Just turned 18. Okay. So you guys had already started the band though, Didn't you start the band at 15? Yeah.

Okay, so take me into the bedroom with you and Benji forming this band. Where did music come into play for you guys? Was that your escape? Yeah, I think it was really hard at the time. My dad had left, a lot of turmoil in the house, a lot of money problems, school was hard. And I think music was, and, you know, it's tough. like you're a teenager and like you're just trying to figure out who you are uh and at you know i'm not a huge guy but i was especially not like tall or or cool when i was 15 uh so i don't think any

of us were yeah i was like we're trying to figure ourselves out yeah um so i think when we we we started to discover music and it really i felt like for the first time when i found these bands and stuff, I started to identify with like, like, I could dress that way and feel cool. It's like an alter ego. Yeah. And the music made me feel cool. And it gave me somewhere, I think it gave us somewhere to escape to where it felt like there was also like immediately we started dreaming.

Immediately, the very first day we started Good Charlotte was just me and Benj in our bedroom. Yeah. We're like, we're going to start a band and we started thinking of names and we came up with Good Charlotte. And then we had a dream. And then we were fully focused on that. And it was like escape from all the stuff. And then that became the mission. And then I think the mission gave us a lot of hope and a lot of purpose. And we just started working on it every day. We started writing songs. If we weren't writing songs, we were looking at, we were reading magazine articles. We were trying to figure out how they do it. And we were like from day one, we were

focused on like how do you do that we're going to do it figuring it out then we found our band members uh paul our bass player uh were these childhood friends they were in school we were asking around we're like anybody can join the band yeah yeah yeah i knew his sister and then he was he was a great under us and he he was a bass player and you want to be in our band and he was like sure that's it and we had our first band practice and it was like that we're just putting it together and um i think it just gave us what was that first practice like Because I'm sure you guys, did you guys have any musical experience? No, we had no.

So you guys were just in the garage, just hammering away on whatever. We didn't have any instruments. Then we got a guitar, this like shitty guitar. And Paul taught Benj like three chords. And then Benj had three chords and we started writing songs with those. And then a guy at church gave us like a bass. And we had a little karaoke machine. And this like old little karaoke machine that had tapes.

And we would like plug a guitar in. the mic in and we would make little songs on it. And that's how we wrote our first songs. Wow. And it was, yeah, it was crazy. Kids these days could never even imagine. Now. The shit that we had to improvise and come up with. The amount of work that it took. It takes, yeah. To even just get places. Yes. Yes. Because now you can make a video and it goes viral and you have a fucking record deal. You do it on your phone. Yeah. It's crazy. But back in the day, like you guys had to do what you guys did. It was so hard. But it wasn't hard at the time.

Right. It was exciting. Yeah. But if you said, okay, now you have to go back and do it again, the same way. I'd be like, hell no, I'm not doing that. Yeah. Yeah. Well, because you were on the journey.

You had those blinders on and you were just like, I have a goal and this is what I'm going to do. Yes. So take me on this journey. You guys form good Charlotte. You guys are in the garage making music. You and Benji, you know, twins, best friends, I'm assuming, obviously. And we'll talk about you guys' relationship in a minute.

But take me on this journey with Good Charlotte because I love the fact that you guys picked out the name Good Charlotte because just for my, you know, my husband's been in the music industry a long time. I've been around the music industry a long time. And I've never heard one bad word about you guys. Oh, really? I have always said, oh, really? That's a nice thing to hear.

No, I swear. I always hear how you guys are always trying to lift people up and always trying to help people. That's one thing I've always heard about you. guys. I'd agree with that. Which I think is really cool. I love, like I was saying, I love that you came up with the name Good Charlotte. So take me on this journey of leaving home. You guys are 18.

You're still doing Good Charlotte. Are you playing shows? Where are you at in this moment? So at that point, we had the band for a couple of years. We were graduating high school, barely. Just so you know, I'm looking at notes over here. I'm not over here playing. Oh, I like that. That's smart.

Chess or anything. That's very smart. I should have one of those from my podcast. Oh, it's the best. Taking notes. You sit there and you just scroll through. How's my mic level? Does it have to be so low?

I'm so used to hide behind my microphone at my desk. I like to hide too. Me too. I'll be in the middle of the interview and she'll be like, put the mic down. Put the mic down and I'm just like right here. I'm a detailed guy. Yeah. When you come to my set, which you have to come sometime, every angle has been

carefully toiled over. Curated. Yeah. That's how I am too. I'm not going to lie about it. So we're 18. We're going on this journey with, you guys have had the band for a little while.

So we were 18. I think we had just graduated, which barely happened. My mom really wanted me to graduate. And I have all kinds of learning disabilities and ADHD and all that stuff. You know, the creative stuff. And, but at the time, you know, in Southern Maryland, you're, you're, there's not a lot of, you know, back then resources for back, that time frame.

Nobody cared that we couldn't fucking pay attention in school. Yeah. I was the same way. I literally could not. I would rock back and forth in my desk. Like, I just couldn't do it. And getting an understanding of like dyslexia, learning stuff, ADHD in my older life, helped me actually understand and be way better. Had I learned it then, I think I would have excelled

and really, but it's a different time. So anyways, barely graduate. We're getting evicted for like the last time. And we kind of just say to our mom, we're gone. Just take care of. Our sister was still at home. My younger sister, who's a year and a half, two years younger. And so we just left. we we lived down in that really far down in the country and we like walk down this like country road to this country store that was at the end of the road and there was a pay phone and we called because there's no cell phones at least we didn't have one at the time well I think we had beepers back then yeah there was beepers we didn't have them but like they there were beepers we called my friend who had a car he came and picked us up we

went and stayed at his house and then um and then we started figuring it out we like we i remember our first little apartment we got because we always worked jobs so i always had to help we always had to help our mom with the bills and stuff so we were always working like 40 hours a week like since we were 14 wow so we always worked so that that was that was like never a heavy heavy load to carry as a teenager yeah it was it was it was at the time it was just all we knew and I really loved working. So I actually really enjoyed my jobs. So like we worked at a pizza place. I worked at Food Lion. I worked at Golden Corral. I worked at all these places. And I actually really enjoyed it because I love working. So I felt like I was doing

something and then like paying bills and stuff made me feel really good about myself. So I never minded working. And my dad worked really hard my whole life. I remember just he was always working. He was like he was a butcher. And then he would paint houses on the weekends. And he was always doing stuff like side jobs. And so I always like understood like you have to just work.

And so we left home. We got an apartment over a funeral home. It was like this little shitty little apartment. they rented out like they had like two or three little apartments above this like funeral home and this family like it was really weird were they cooking people down below they were like preparing bodies like yeah like were they cremating them too maybe i don't know does it smell like refried beans uh you know because i've heard that before i don't know i think i blocked it out but it was like our first apartment but i mean congratulations for sure and it was weird and they had like like

like a, um, they had like an adult son who lived in one of them who managed the apartments, but he was a drug addict. Oh, no. Weird. And he's like partying every night. And he would get like out of his mind on like whatever. And he would like beat on our door. Oh, no.

Very traumatic. We had never, we hadn't even been out in the world. And like, we're like, we're going back home. Fuck this. Anyways, we, we start living on our own. and we just start, the whole focus is good Charlotte. Everything is about good Charlotte. So we're working jobs and we ended up moving up to Annapolis, Maryland, where we,

where there was a lot of bars. So we started playing all the bars. And we moved up there for that because there was like a local like music, like bar scene. And we started playing acoustic sets at bars all the time. And we were saving our money. We were buying band equipment. We were booking shows. And we just started trying to make it.

It was the 90s, you know. So it was all very, make a demo tape, you're passing it out. And then somewhere in there, we started to kind of like build a little local following, you know. And then we just fucking stayed on it. And we built this kind of local thing. And then we started getting, you know, like opening slots locally when they needed to sell a few hundred more tickets at this venue for this band. And they would throw us on shows locally because we started kind of. And then from there, we started regionally getting shows in Philly, getting shows in New York.

And we started, you know, making our way on the East Coast playing. And then by 99, the labels were all kind of, you know, one label guy had found our thing, gave it to another guy. So then by 99, we were like some, we were, we were made a name for ourselves. and then the typical kind of classic local radio station plays us. All the labels then kind of jump. Then there's a big thing, bidding war, all that stuff. And we end up getting signed. And we signed to Sony back in like 99.

And then we just never fucking let up once we got that opportunity. Put on their necks. Yeah. Yeah. That was easy work from the jobs we had had and the hours we put in at our real jobs. the opportunity to get to make a living and um you know um we signed a big record deal signed a big publishing deal uh bought our mom a place no uh and then just got in the van started working nobody knows what the van is like i'm telling you j and i had a van too

when we first started off and it is rough yeah it's real it's real you're just you're you're you're you're you're slugging it out and then um by 2002 you you you you you're you're you're you're You know, we had our second record. That's the one that everyone kind of knows us for. Yeah. Well, in 2000, you guys started getting a buzz with the song Little Things. Yeah. And that's kind of where you guys got your buzz.

And then you opened up for, was it Blink 182? And was that like your big first break? Or did I misread that somewhere? Well, we did open for Blink in like a local show. I would say probably contribute. It's one of the breaks. I think there was a bunch of that. we got offered the lit tour when they were doing the east coast we did that we did eve six we did a

bunch of like those radio um bands in the 90s all that all that stuff so we were doing all that stuff and um yeah yeah i would say those were like all big breaks yeah yeah take me into the album of lifestyles and the rich and famous because i mean this is when you guys exploded everywhere i mean you couldn't look anywhere and there wasn't. Can we bring guyliners back? MTV era. Do you wear eyeliner anymore? No. Damn it. I love guyliners. Like I'm from the era though. I'm from the 80s hair bands. You know, like I love guyliners. And every time I talk about guyliners on the podcast, everybody's always like, what's a guyliner? I'm like, you had to have lived it. You had to be there. You had to have been there. We did it. We did it. Yeah. Were you guys inspired from the 80s

hair bands with the guyliner stuff? No. No. Was it more punk? It was. It was. It was just like punk thing. Yeah. Yeah. It was like, yeah, I don't know what it was. It was just like, guess that's how I felt. Bring it back. Bring it back.

I love that. You know, you get it all messy. Like you've been crying. Oh, love it. Something like that. Yep. Don't get me excited over here. Yeah.

All right. So Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous was 2002 from the Young and the Hopeless. Yeah. Take me on this journey because this is where you guys pretty much like catapult. Where are you like mentally? all of that. I think we had been running so hard and so fast at it that when it, when that record broke through,

I don't know if we even looked up to understand or realize at the time. Obviously now at my age, I understand how big that moment was. And it was big, but it was so, the years we spent before, which I think most artists that have had this experience could probably relate to, is we were so relentlessly working towards success. And you guys were in survival mode. Yeah. And we were in survival mode. And then there's two parts, right? There's the experience

that everyone else is seeing. So you're watching it on MTV or you're, seeing it, even if you're in the industry and you're in another band and you watch a band. All that is just a perception of someone else. It's the experience everyone else is seeing. And then there's the experience you're having. And then there's layers to that. Yes. Because I think the short answer everyone wants to hear is like, yeah, it was great.

And it was. Yeah. I don't want to hear that. I want to hear the real stuff. But I think we were so overwhelmed. And also so afraid of losing it when we got it. It was almost like we caught a whale and we were just holding on to try. And that was the, I think that's the perception of this is just dumb luck.

Right. Which is not. Do you think every artist has that? Because I know my husband goes through that also where it's like you, there was a moment where he ran himself into the ground because he was just chasing, you know, and you kind of have to step back. Did you have that moment too where you were like running yourself into the ground

trying to chase this dream? We ran ourselves into the ground many times. I don't think we were old enough or mature enough to actually think we could step back. Yeah. So one of the things I think when I see another artist having great success is my, Two thoughts I always think. I always go, oh, that's great. Second thought is, oh, man, I hope they're okay.

You know? Yeah. Because there's the, if you're not, if you, if you don't, let me, let me think about how to say it. Because I'm not, no one should ever be conflicted about their success because they earned it. but they should be thoughtful and they should give themselves the space to decide what they want to do, how they want to participate, how fast do they want to go, how much do they want to do, and not feel like they owe their success anything. How long did it take you to figure that out?

Like probably I was 40. Yeah. So I think one of the, you know, one of the things I love about your husband is I think he had to take a long winding road to get to his success. So I do think he is more aware of, I think he's more mature. and so he can actually stop, even though it's hard to sometimes, because you're overwhelmed by the flow of information is just so much. The deal flow is so wide and far and reaching,

and it's all coming at you from all the, the experience of success feels something like that. It's like it's coming at you from all angles and you don't want to, you know, the old saying, make hay well the sun shines is real. Like there is a real, there's opportunistic, moments where you have to take a you have to you have to you have to be in that moment and you want to be um ready and able to capitalize on opportunity and and what other people will call luck is more just like

you were down going down the road for so fucking long and then you hit this moment where um all the work you did stacked up and there was like a momentum thing there's a bunch of things you have to have talent you have to have smarts you have to have work ethic you have to have all that to get to that moment and then and then you want to be able to show up for that moment but then that moment can overwhelm you so you do have to find a dance and you do have to be aware of like of what makes you happy you know you have to be aware of yourself and you have to be able to take a knee here and there so that you don't burn out and just completely implode and become bitter or become so passive aggressive because you don't feel like you have a choice or become

a shell of a person because you've just given everything to the world. And so I think that's the complicated nature of fame, success, and all of that wrapped up, right? Yeah. So in your 20s, I think this is the good part about it happening in your 20s. You're kind of naive. Yeah. And I feel like more resilient in a way. More resilient in that way.

Because you're, I don't know. It just doesn't sink in. Oh, there's more novelty in your 20s. Right. In your 40s, there's less novelty. Right. So, you know, it's all novel in your 20s. Right.

You haven't seen anything. Right. And especially us, we were from nowhere. So we had never been on a plane until we were 19. So we were like, everything was fucking amazing. Yeah. And so there's a bit of a drug in that where you'll go anywhere and do anything because you've never been to Australia.

You've never been to Japan. You've never been to Europe. You've never been. So you're prime to go and work and take over the world. And we ran through, you know, from the day we started the band at 15 to probably 31 or 32, we just ran. nonstop. We would come home for two months, make a record, go right back out.

And like, but then right around the, you know, when I had my kids, I was 29, 30. And that was the first time where I was like, whoa, I don't have Nicole and the kids and stuff. That was the first time where I was like, oh, like maybe this feels more important than that. And then I stopped and started kind of reflecting on like, what are we doing? how do we work all that? But in our 20s, I think we were just so focused when 2002, when the record hit, we knew, you know, we could feel it. But if you asked me to recall some memories, I don't think I could. Yeah. Like just even like where was your mental health in that, that era? It was not good. Not good. Just literally. Did you ever deal with addiction issues or

alcoholism or any of that? Because I feel like I've never seen. any of that in the headlines. I never had an addiction thing. I had a very complicated kind of, like, strange relationship with alcohol because it was, and drugs, because it was so, it had destroyed my family and the extended family. And I've seen so much bad that I never did drugs. So I never had, I never, like, I never did cocaine. I never did any drugs because they terrified me.

because I've seen so many people in my life growing up that had in some way, shape, or form ruined their life from cocaine heroin. Obviously, late in the 90s, like OxyContin started in the 2000s. All that stuff. I stayed away from it because it was like I saw it firsthand. And it always was like so familiar and so bad. Right. I was lucky in that way.

Yeah, because some people go one way and some people go the other. Yeah. have been exposed to as much as you have. Yeah. So alcohol was something that I probably abused in some ways without knowing it because I think I was medicating like some deep PTSD, trauma, depression, that kind of stuff. So I found that out later because when I started working on myself, any want or need or because I never went out like, oh, I'm going to drink, but then I'd find myself in some moments,

like, how did I get here? How did I get blocked out? I feel like that happened in the 2000s a lot. Yeah. So, but there was a lot of pain that was masked and you didn't know how to unpack it. Yes. Absolutely. And then my 30s, I did that work. And now I could say like, I don't drink. I don't have not drink, but I don't drink. Yeah. So it's not that I'd, keep myself from drinking. I just don't have a, I think I'm just like in my body. Yeah. So I don't like feeling out of my body. I don't think it either. Now that I'm sober, I can't, I can't do it. And I think part of why we drink and use drugs is to get out of our body because we, you know, so I think there's a big thing with that. I think if it's painful to be in yourself, you want to be out of yourself. And so I think

in my adult life, that's not something I relate to. Yeah. In my 20s, I think, I always had a conflicted relationship with alcohol because of my dad. So I was always something I was never really comfortable with, but sometimes, of course. Do you ever laugh at the fact that the song criticizing fame is the one that gave it to you? No, because if you listen to the song, we are saying kind of give it to me. Right. I want it.

Yeah. You know, explicitly saying like, let's rob them. But really saying like if it's so bad, right, a naive view, but it was honest. Right. I realize now fame isn't real. It's a it's a byproduct of lots of things. You can manufacture fame. You can buy fame.

you can have fame is not something that I think is valuable but I think it's I think it's something you have to it's a necessary evil for depending on what you are trying to do I think it's something that you have to manage and I think that it's it's yeah it's it's it's it's it's it's not even like I don't even say unfortunately it's something that comes with achieving things. And so, but in the modern world, everyone's famous. So you can have, you can, so then, then you start to kind of look at like, well, what kind of fame do you want to have?

Right. Right. At what level? Yeah, you could be, there are internet personalities that, um, make fame for themselves by pissing people off. Yeah. There's people who make fame for themselves by. degrading themselves.

And it's all a choice. I've come to a more like surgical feeling towards it. Like you can choose it. And you can also choose to avoid it sometimes. And so I think I always tell my kids, I'm like, if you, trust me, you don't want to be known for. don't be so in a rush to be known yeah like you will be happy if you're known for doing something you love it's so much more sustainable and enjoyable when you're doing something you love you can deal with the fame once it gets old because it gets old and you they always say like

you think you want to be rich and famous try getting rich first like it's really true like but famous novel the experience of like oh my god you know who who I am. That's a, that's a real, everyone who's interested in that feeling, go for it. I'm not saying no, but like it'll get old and then you'll be navigating it and you'll be managing it. And it turns on everyone. But it's a double-edged sword. Yes. That's so real that it turns on everyone. I'm going to use that from now on. It does. And it is just what it's the nature, right? It's just the nature. So to sit here and feel one way or another about it is a, is a, is a, is a loss cause. It's unproductive.

Yeah. But to acknowledge that it's a thing and that there are moments where it can be useful or it can you can shine a light on something that you're passionate about or you can help people. Sure. Yeah. But these days anyone can help. If you get a GoFundMe trending on Twitter, you can help people and you'll get a little famous.

So it's kind of like this abstraction that is not. not to me like um it's we have to update what we call fame yeah because the old idea of fame is like from the 80s like he can't go anywhere no one can go anywhere yeah if you do some shit out there in the world someone's going to film you and you'll be famous or you'll you'll like that's the world we live in so i think we have to update how we look at fame and is it good or bad that's both in any given day, you know? And I also think that like, it's just an antiquated idea that like,

like all of it's kind of like, but I would say this, I'll bet you any amount of money that like, if jelly roll wants to go out to a restaurant, he's got to measure the cost. So what's the cost? Well, if I'm feeling like, I'm tired, I've been going for weeks, I give a lot when people talk to me, I listen. And like, there's different levels of what you give.

Some people don't. Some people don't listen. Some people are, but it's different, you know, so it depends on how you, how you move through the world and what you want to give. And so you have to measure, like, what's that going to cost me if I go, if I just want to go to that restaurant? Well, I'm probably going to have to talk to every fucking person. That's not bad. Right. We say it.

It sounds bad. It's not bad. It's just real. No, I don't think it sounds bad. So I look at it more just like real. Yeah. Now you're dropping gems of wisdom here. And I really think that a lot of people need to hear what you have to say because it's honestly

refreshing to hear, especially in a world that chases nothing but clout. To hear your perspective on it is I like it. I feel like I just am a normal guy who found himself in a. an abnormal place and I observe everyone and I don't really have an opinion on how anyone should live other than like how they live and what what they decide and um I just feel like uh it's it's a funny place to be right like I'm surrounded by people who who have all all different levels of successes and um I've gotten to observe a lot of stuff.

And I feel like I've learned at this age just how to be myself. And I try to just be honest and say what I think. And I think the world needs to define things all the time and as good or bad or this or that. And I think fame is a funny one because like if we recap, celebrated what we consider fame. Everyone's famous. Yeah, absolutely.

What is it like having Lionel Richie as a father-in-law? Because I am a huge Lionel Richie fan. Yeah, I am too. Everyone's a huge Lionel fan. How can you not be, you know? What an incredible force of nature, Lionel is. Yeah, I mean, to be his son-in-law is one thing, because there's a real person there, who's got a lot of wisdom and a lot of experience and a lot of,

he's just unique. I've never met anyone like him. And the fact that we have a really nice relationship. But then he's also like this legend. And he, again, like another person, he can't go in the world anywhere without every. one. You very rarely, you see those phenomenon type. I feel very lucky because I get to move through the world a lot.

Yeah. Once or twice a day, someone comes up to me and is like, and it's more like they relate to me from another time. So it's actually very, for me, very comfortable. Yeah. I don't need to feel relevant to the modern culture. I don't need to feel relevant. I feel very, like, happy to have had that experience.

but now to exist in a place where I get to have like a lot of normality. You know, I can move through the world and it's pretty easy. But I see Lionelan, he's, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he's, he's, everyone loves him. And, and he's that guy. He loves, he gives, he gives, he gives and gives in gifts. So sometimes I feel bad for him. Um, I think he's been doing it so long.

he's um it's all he knows and i think that he's got such a legacy and it's such an an overwhelmingly kind of the size of it is so big that i think i i mostly just kind of always worry about people that are living under the um pressure of that you know and especially my family you know someone in my family i i would say the same thing about cameron i like see what she's you know she she She definitely has figured out a way to move through the world, but she can't go anywhere without everyone going, oh my God, that's Cameron, you know? Yeah. And so there's the privacy is hard.

And privacy is such a wonderful thing. Yeah. It's, it's a treasure to have. Yeah. To be somewhere and not have any eyes on you and to be. That's why we're getting a house out here because in Nashville we can't go anywhere. Oh, Nashville's hard for you. We move around, no problem.

Right. It's easier for you guys to move around. So much easier out here. That's nice. I couldn't even imagine how we're nowhere. near Lionel's legendary status. I couldn't imagine how that poor man has to move. Well, I would actually say that I think,

um, I would say I think that jelly roll is about as big as you can get right now. Well, I'm married to the guy, so I don't think he's that cool. I think that you've been on the whole, I'm totally kidding. Well, but here's the thing is I think that you've been on the whole journey. Yeah.

And it kind of expands like that when you're on the whole thing. And you may not eat, Sometimes you may not be aware of how big it is sometimes. But I would say with Lionel, I see him and he handles it with class, and he's super graceful and he's very generous with people. But I think, you know, in the quiet moments, when we spend time together, it's at home.

So I do feel like I get. get to. Is he like the dad you never had? Um, you know, in some ways. It's interesting. I always felt like I couldn't have a dad. So I don't know if I let anyone be my dad. But he is the only dad I have. Right. Um, and, uh, rest in peace to my, my, my dad who, um, we had a, we, we had a really nice relationship when he passed away. And I do feel like when he when he died the last it's been seven years. It'll be seven years in March. I've been closer to him than I ever was like it's so interesting like spiritually. It's actually made me I feel like a more spiritual person. I do feel like deeply connected to my my dad. But Lionel is my only dad. Earthbound dad. Yeah.

But there are other, there are a couple other men that are like father figures to me. That's amazing. And I would say I'm really lucky I have a couple, my brother-in-law, his dad. There's a couple of guys who I, who I love deeply and how I've been incredibly supportive. And I feel very, very lucky to have them in my life. Lionel is, yeah, Lionel is, he has been, he's been the dad, he's in a lot of ways. And I think, I'm lucky to have him as a dad in law. I've heard horror stories about father-in-laws.

Yeah. And it's not been that with him. Good. From day one, he was like, just wrap me up, always supported me, always loved me. And we have a really nice relationship. Good. We have a friendship. So let's talk about you and Vinji's relationship.

I heard you say in an interview that he's kind of like the leader of you too. Yeah. How do you guys establish that? I think it's natural. Yeah. I think I'm more like, it's not that I'm more friendly, but I am a little bit more like searching out. And he's a little bit more like building things.

He likes to stay in one place and like build the thing we're working on. if that makes sense. What are you guys similarities and what are you guys opposite in? Are you guys more alike in ways? Are you guys more opposite in ways? I am, I mean, we're alike a lot, especially if you saw us together.

We were twins. And I do think that we both have the same values, like both been married a long time, both super focused on that. You guys both married Virgo women too, which is soulmate signs to Pisces. Yeah. Yeah. It's very Virgo.

Yeah. By the way. Virgo wasn't a word to me until I married Nicole. Yeah. And now it's such an important word. You know how someone's a Virgo. You know how you know if someone's a Virgo. How? They tell you every fucking day. But so we're very similar in that way. I'd say he is more of a builder.

And I'm a little bit more like a dreamer. Yeah. And together we kind of work like we lock in. Yeah, that's the perfect combination though to have, especially as twins and that have the same passion and building this band and everything together. So yeah. No, I admire you guys as relationship as well. And I'm going to ask you one more question.

If everything disappeared tomorrow, fame, money, and legacy, who would Joel Madden still be? Easy. Would have no problem. Yeah. I would just be a dad and a husband. husband and a brother and a friend. And I'd be super happy.

I'd be fine. I have no problem. I can get a job tomorrow doing anything that I, literally anything I have to do to take care of my family. I'm lucky I get to do what I love. But I don't fucking, I'm not precious about it. I think it's been incredibly, it's been an incredible, it's been an incredible a blessing to do music for a living.

It's an easy job. It has its moments. There's silliness you've got to deal with sometimes. And I care about the songs. I want to, you know, artistically, want to have a legacy. But if it got fucking thrown away, if it got taken,

I don't care. I care about my kids. I care about my wife. I care about my friends. I care about actually just being happy. And like, I could go fishing or I could have a cup of coffee or I could go, you know, move to the fucking middle of nowhere and be happy if I have to.

I'm going to do this as long as I can because I believe we're supposed to work as hard as we can with like the opportunities we have. We should try. And I think we should try to do the best we can. But like if you told me, I'm taking it all and you've got to go. be nobody, I'd be totally fun. I'd be happy to be nobody. So whatever nobody means, I'm just saying, like, I think

I do value this stuff. I respect it, but I actually just care about being, you know, someone that my family, my friends, and people that I meet every day, like real people that if we're at a restaurant or a coffee shop or wherever I'm at, respect when they meet.

So I'm not up against some. I don't feel like I'm up against anything. I just, I want to work the best I can. I want to do the best I can. But I don't care. I really don't. I care about it in the sense of wanting to achieve. But like if you said, it's all gone tomorrow.

I'd be fine. I think you've built quite the legacy. And I think everything's going to be just fine. And I'm so proud of your growth and just getting to sit here and talk with you has been really amazing. I'm such a fan of you guys. Thank you. You guys are such a, that's why I came. Thank you. I just think that seeing a couple to people building a life, building a family, building, you know, and finding themselves and working on themselves. You guys are very open about it, which I think is really good. So that's an example for people.

And I think we all come from similar places and we all make mistakes. We all have like, we're calling whatever you want. Like, it's just real. And I think that like it's a beautiful thing. I'm really, I've always been rooting for you guys. Thank you. And I just am really proud of you guys. I think that it takes a lot of work.

Yeah. You know. If anybody knows, it's you. I mean, you guys, you've been with your wife for how long and just the journey. that you guys have had to do together. You got to show up. Now, we appreciate the kind words too. Like, we appreciate having people on our side.

So. Yeah, I'm such a fan. I just, I'm always rooting for you guys. We got to get Jay on your podcast. What's that? We got to get Jay on your podcast. Anytime.

He does everybody else's podcast. So, you know what? It says, it's a, it's an open door. Yeah. It's an open door.

It always happens when it's meant to happen. It's an open door. I will love that. But also, like, it'll happen. No, he's actually, it's so funny because he's, so in tune with everything that I don't think he's in tune with. But he's like, who's coming on the podcast today? I was like, Joel. And he's like, oh yeah, he's like the one with artist friendly and good

Charlotte. He's like, Guyliner. And I was like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So he loves you too. Yeah, I'm a big fan. Yay. I love that. Well, we'll get you guys together because you guys have to meet for sure. Well, when you guys move out here, yeah. Tell us. Okay. We'll have dinner. Awesome. Do a double date. Yeah. That'll be great. Yeah, that'll be great. Yeah, that'll be awesome. Joel, thank you for coming on the podcast. I appreciate you. And thank you guys for tuning in to another episode of blonde i'll see you guys next week bye