Dumb Blonde - Karen Gravano: Calm in Chaos

Episode Date: March 13, 2024

The iconicness continues this week with Karen Gravano, former Mob Wives star, best-selling author and Co-Founder of The Body Depot Spa. Karen leaves nothing behind as she dishes about growing up as the daughter of infamous mobster Salvatore "Sammy the Bull" Gravano, her complicated relationship with costar Drita D'Avanzo and the drama that played out on and off camera. She also reflected on how her father's high-profile crimes impacted her life and family and how she got through it with a hustling spirit and a commitment for prison reform advocacy. Watch Full Episodes & More:www.dumbblondeunrated.comKaren: IG | The Body Depot See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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forget to sub to Patreon so that you can see the visuals because not only do we have episodes of the podcast, we have exclusive content that nobody else sees on any other apps behind the scenes photo shoots and we're dropping a whole bunch of surprising stuff this year so if you guys don't want to miss out and you want to be the first to know go over to our patreon www.dumbblondunrated.com love you is this thing on bonnie who used to be a former sex worker and now hosts the podcast dumb blonde most little girls grow up wanting to be doctors and lawyers and shit. And I was like, I want to be super hot, make a lot of fucking money and be a rock star's wife. That was my goal as a child.

And here we are. What's up, you sexy motherfuckers? Welcome to another episode of Dumb Blonde. On the pod today, we have a woman who was born into a lifestyle that so many people glamorize. And still to this day, it's now a trending topic on TikTok. Today we get to hear the real pain that this lifestyle brings from a woman who's lived it and survived. Miss Karen Gravano.

Hi beautiful. Thank you for having me. Dude. First let's start off with that. I'm excited to be here. I'm so happy that you're here. Like I was just telling you, I don't watch a lot of reality TV shows, but Mob Wives, I was religiously watching that shit every week. And the reason why was because

that shit just was felt so real, you know? And it was just, um, it was a time when TV was great. Yes. We were at the height of reality TV. And I think what made Mob Wives so authentic was that we really knew each other. We really all had history together. We weren't just a cast put in a house and we didn't like each other because, you know, somebody said something in a situation. We had a lot of history and it kind of got crazy at times. But it came through where for me, especially doing the show, I wanted it to be where I could tell my story and maybe somebody can take something away from it. Sometimes I felt like it got blurred with the fighting and the arguing.

It got petty at times. But the reality was we all kind of went through different struggles and we were able to put that on TV. And people now come up to me and say, you know, thank you for sharing that. I had a similar situation or I went through this and I could relate because you guys were so real. And that's, you know, that's, hence all the years later, and the fighting's done and over with. You know, it's, it's, it's good to hear that. It was all of you guys, you guys's vulnerability. And I think that's what made people be able to relate to you guys, especially women, you know, like, we all go through silent battles and battles and family trauma and bullshit. And I think that's what made people be able to relate to you guys, especially women. You know, like we all go through silent battles and battles and family trauma and bullshit.

And I think a lot of women were able to kind of I don't want to say latch on, but maybe like admire, you know, each one of you for different reasons. So it was you guys are fucking icons, which is which is why we're doing these podcasts this month because I um you know mob wives started trending on TikTok yes and as soon as I saw that I was like oh this is we got to get you know Karen Renee we got to get everybody on because you guys I feel like this generation missed out on you guys you know they did yeah well you know they see like now it's back on Paramount Plus. They're putting it out. And I'm getting some like younger kids now say I watch your show. But it's just it was a crazy time in TV.

And it's unfortunate that we're not back on the air, but it kind of gets into a lot of political stuff with the producers and the network. I don't know if a lot of people know, but we kind of fell in that whole Harvey Weinstein saga where Harvey was the producer for Mob Wives. So when everything happened with him, his intellectual properties had to go get sold to another production company. And when everything finally panned out, some of the producers, one in particular, hung on and they didn't want to get, they didn't want to sell it. So they were kind of getting greedy with the money and, you know, we were never canceled. The network wanted to have us back, but it was just the negotiations

between the producers and the network just didn't pan out. So I had no idea that Harvey Weinstein was involved until we had that phone call and I was mind blown. And then I, it was right there in the credits when i was watching and catching up on some of the mob wife episodes just to get familiar again you would see him and i think like his brother in the credits yeah yeah bob bob bob and harv so it is crazy um you know as well i don't know if you know but when they sell shows they don't usually bring the cast with them and um prior to mob wives they actually brought us all on the pitch meetings because i guess they thought we were so authentic and the way we interacted with each other and um harvey would come on the meetings and it was just it was funny and he would ever hit on you or anything like that no everyone always says that they're like did you ever i said no we kind of got fucked in our contract from them in a way but

never physically or anything he just fucked me financially in a way, but never physically or anything. He didn't fuck me physically. He just fucked me financially. In a way, yeah. But that's, you know, in reality TV, you sign your life away. Yeah. Which is, you know, I get it now. Now that it's resurfacing, are you guys getting residuals from that? No, we don't. Wow.

We never. And I don't know, especially back then, like if were privy to all the residuals and doing all that. We didn't. It wasn't offered to us. I'll tell you how my boy, because at first I was like, I'm not going to be on a TV show or reality show. I have too much baggage. So Jennifer Graziano, which is Renee's sister, and I,

we were actually talking about doing a scripted show. We were just in talks. We've been childhood friends. She was there when I went through all this stuff with my father. We kind of stopped talking for a while, but then we reconnected. And one day she says, hey, listen, this guy's pitching an idea to me about women, you know, whose husbands went to prison. And, you know, what do you think about it? And I said, it'll be good. She goes, I'm thinking of casting Drita. What do you think? I said said she's definitely good for tv you know she's she's a character so she would be good for that and um as her negotiations got further along she was like oh what about renee i said renee is

definitely made for tv like renee can make drama out of like a crumb right yeah so it's like renee is good for that and then she was like well i have renee's friend carla so anyway carla was beautiful yes and carla was um she's just real right she called she came with a lot of like mob history stuff too and like she set her boundaries like this is what i'm not going to talk about and she always stuck to her guns and like one thing i do because in the beginning you know her and drita were friends and at the time of our war and she was not having it like they would try to sit us down and be like can you explain to carl and cause like i don't give a fuck i'm friends with drita i don't want to hear it yeah and i always like that about her because she's loyal yeah even if i felt she was

loyal to the wrong person or she you know and then kind of as the series went on i guess she's seen for herself and you know the tides changed and her and drita you know we're no longer friends but she has always stuck to what she believed in she doesn't she doesn't want to she was the hard one they always said because she doesn't feed into drama and i'll be like you're on a reality show you guys need to talk about it i feel like somebody had to be the calm to you guys this fucking storm though because y'all were fucking wild. Yes, we were. I mean, plates flying, fists flying, hair flying.

Yeah, everything flying. That had to have been so hard for you. And we're going to get into it. You know, all the stuff that happened as a little girl and forward. But just kind of reflecting back, that had to have been so hard for you to have to go face these people after everything that you had already been through prior to the show even starting um when jennifer the producer had asked me if i wanted to be on it i was like hell no i have too much baggage like i left new york there was real stuff because of that lifestyle that has happened to me and my family and it's like still ongoing like i still to today deal with it.

So I just didn't think reality TV was a platform for me, although I was in negotiations for writing a book and actually a movie at the time. Whatever, I come back and they're filming the sizzle reel. And, you know, I can't help it, but sit down at the table with them. And, you know, the sizzle reel is where history was really made because it was iconic. And that's what sold the show. And so Jen comes back to me and she's like you got to be on the show and I was like okay so the show comes back they want to buy it and I'm like what's the name they're like Mob Wives I'm like are you fucking kidding me like I'm not coming back and

being like mob this mob that like I stepped away from that in my mind when we sat down and talked about it it was for women who went through struggles and overcame them and they're like Karen You're such a good person because you went through your entire community turned on you You know what I mean? And there was so many things there was a hit put on my brother like he was five minutes away from getting his head blown Off then I moved to Arizona with my family and my whole family gets arrested for selling drugs We become a drug cartel in Arizona. Yeah, we're gonna and my whole family gets arrested for selling drugs.

We become a drug cartel in Arizona. Yeah, we're going to touch base on all of that. And everything was taken. When I'm telling you everything, like from credit cards to jewelry to houses to restaurants to cars, we had nothing. I just had a little baby. I had to come home and start over, and I did, and I made it. So they were like, that's the story that we want to tell. And I'm like, you know what?

That's what I want to tell too because if people can relate to me or I can help someone because I know the dark places that I've been in, and how I've overcame it. This is something important to me. And then next thing I know, we come back and we're like fighting each other. But um, I feel like they set the kind of set you guys up for that too. Because you and Drita already had like beef that was off camera, right? Because you used to date Lee. So I dated him for six years okay oh okay I didn't know it was six years we were together for six years he moved to Arizona with me um we came back and she was my friend she was a friend that no boyfriend wanted like you're

not allowed to bring that girl into the house it was like that type of situation and me like nobody could tell me who I could hang out with right so I always stuck up for Drita I always like fuck with her we had a weed service at a time where me and um my friends ran a weed service it's called aromatherapy right yes I love that name we'll talk more about that too and um you know we all had money we came from a background our parents we were hustlers and Drita had nothing so I'm like come on girl here like let's go hustle here's an opportunity for you to make money and she never wanted to do it but i was the type like all right i'll go up i'll make the sale here give her some money like i wanted her to be an equal with us because that's just how i am like i never want someone to be

around us and feel like they're you know need us to pay this or to pay that when you say being equal to us is it because she wasn't italian yeah and just not even that it was just like you know we were all hustlers gotcha you know like we had a weed service we had you know apartments cars and she was you know the girl that would come around and couldn't go to eat at this restaurant because she didn't have money so it's like come on girl i'll get you some money. Let's, you know, and it was never, I never wanted anyone to feel like I'm trying to be your boss or be like, be my equal. Come on, we can get this money. Let's get it together. And when we had the weed service, she just really wasn't, she just didn't want to do it.

So neither here nor there, it was like, you know, she just, I'm the one that actually brought her around and then all of a sudden I leave and I go to Arizona and I find out that her and Leah together which is like okay I think as a woman like here's where I think everything got confused from Mob Wives because it wasn't portrayed right in the beginning as a woman I think you owe that to your friend to be able to at least say hey girl listen girl, listen, I hooked up with your man. She never said that. And you guys were still together when she hooked up with him? No.

It was after. I had moved on, but me and her were still friends. We never had a falling out. So if you and him are together, you could say, hey, it's a phone call. But that's where she said we weren't friends. So we went from being friends. That's where I don't get it. How do you pick and choose when we're friends and when we're not? When it's where I don't get it how do you pick and

choose when we're friends and when we're not right when it's convenient for you now we're not friends and it's not that she I'm like the way they were trying to make it like I'm like I need you to explain this to me not just common courtesy as a friend yeah let's have a conversation you never gave that to me and whatever it bothered me so for me and then she kept saying well you guys weren't really together you I live with him you know we were together me and whatever, it bothered me. So for me, and then she kept saying, well, you guys weren't really together. I lived with him, you know, we were together for seven years. So it just started becoming like I was this obsessed ex-girlfriend, but really it was about respect because I always respected you.

I always brought you to the table with us as an equal. The reason why you're even on Mob Wives is you weren't friends with Jennifer. I made you guys become friends. No one really even liked Rita in the beginning. She was like my friend. And now it's like, oh, and let me backtrack. And I'll probably like people probably won't like me for saying this, but before Mob Wives ever aired, we were all together. Me and Drita sat down at tables and been like, girl, we're going to show that no guy could ever come between a girl. Oh, wow. So nobody knows that.

We pitched Mobwise. We went into every network with Harvey Weinstein, with the producers. We all sat down together. So then when the show aired and it came out, me and Drita had this thing like we were friends. And, you know, we kind of fell apart because I went to Arizona. I moved away. You got with Lee. But we're back.

And you know what? Fuck him. Our friendship matters more than all that. And we're going to rekindle our friendship. But then it became, oh, Drita don't want you at her house. You can't film in her house. You can't. So the producers are telling me things.

And I'm more like, what's up? Is there an issue? I don't want you to talk about Lee. I don't want this to be said. Well, you can't tell me what to say or what to do. And even in my book, this is where it all, like I was writing a book before Mob Wives. I have a real history in that world.

Lee is like not even a factor. So when she was like, you can't put him in your book. I'm like, who are you to tell me what I can write in my book about? So that's why I wrote the little paragraph about, you know. I'm going through that now with my book. I have an ex coming out of the woodwork saying, don't put me in your book. And I'm like. It's your life.

I'm like, you abused me. Yeah. You know, like, why would I not show people that what I did after? It's not about you. It's about what I overcame. Yeah. Exactly. No, that's wild. And that's about what i overcame yeah exactly no that's wild and that's

where it all started stemming from and it was a lot of what i mean all the producers will even say there was so much behind the scenes that was happening um before my boys even came back and i think the opening line was i came back and said fuck sam in the bowl fuck john gatti i'm gangster which i was like why'd you say that and it had nothing to do with the girls it had to do with people saying don't put her on the show street people don't bring her back we don't do this and it was like that couldn't happen because the whole show was based off of mob wives and my name was the name that was gonna you know your dad is pretty fucking notorious so for everybody who's listening your dad is

sammy the bull gravano he was the underboss of the gambino family you know the whole john gatti sammy the bull saga that has followed me for my whole life you know and that's what really sold mob wives so for people for for everyone to be on that show and then start telling me what i could do what i can't do like it's not i, I'm not, you know, like no motherfuckers. No motherfuckers. No motherfuckers. I didn't have none. Yeah. So let's circle back to your childhood because I did some, I did a bunch of research because I wanted to make sure that I got everything right. And you know,

there's a lot of layers when it comes to the mob and stuff like that. And I just want to say that, and I was telling this to them earlier, I actually have a new found respect for your father and your family because I didn't really, you know, you hear about Sammy the bull and you hear like, Oh, he's a rat. He's this, he's that. But if you, if people ever took the time to really listen to the story, your dad pretty, and we'll get it, pretty much warned John Gotti and was like, hey, man, stop trying to fucking put this all on me. Like, it's not going to happen.

And then he even tried to have their trial separated, right? And Gotti refused it. And so your dad was like, you know what? It's fucking showtime. Right. And I'm sorry, but if I was in that situation, not that I am that type of personality either, and I don't think your father is,

but when you have the world coming against you like that and people are trying to pin you for shit, you've already done your shit, you're going to admit to doing your shit, but people are trying to pin you on more shit, I would have probably done the same thing your dad did. You know, I agree with you because at this point in my life, I can say I understand and I'm happy that he did that

because he did have another route that he considered taking and that was killing John in prison because John double-crossed him. Right. And I think my father's famous line was, John's a double-crosser, I'm a master double-crosser. And that's what that life is. Yeah, your dad's a pretty fucking gangster, dude. Yeah. Like like it is

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Let's go all the way back. Let's go back to you just being born into this. So you're born, you, you were raised where? In Brooklyn and Staten Island. I lived in Brooklyn until I was eight years old. Then we moved to Staten Island. Yeah. I'm looking at my notes. So if you see me looking down, I literally have a shit ton of notes for you. Um, so you were raised in Brooklyn and Staten Island and take me on that journey. You know, your dad was a hustler. He wasn't always a gangster, correct? No, he pretty much started in the mob at a very young age. I mean, in, in, so I want to say like Brooklyn and Staten Island is kind of like the breeding ground for the mafia. And, um, my father grew up, you know, intrigued with that lifestyle. My grandfather came over from Sicily and, you know,

they, he was on the opposite side of the street. My grandfather was a legitimate guy. And, um, the men on the other side of the street, you know, there was always respect and the way my grandfather respected them. You know, my father was always intrigued. And my father said, you know, how do you know this one particular guy that my grandfather knew back from Sicily? And he said, he's a bad guy, but he's one of our bad guys. You know, he's good to us. So that always stuck in my father's head because he's like, well, you know, what did he mean by that? But the mafia took care of their communities. They took care of their own. And's really what kozunosha i mean i can get deep with you but kozunosha let's get deep because i got i got tons of shit in here so yeah kozunosha

is this thing of ours and what it is is the mafia actually protected and policed their own communities like back in the day someone couldn't come in a community and hurt a little kid or rape a girl. You're going to get killed. The mafia protected their own. Which I feel like they should do to this day. Yeah. Because people who hurt children need to fucking be not on the streets. Yeah.

They didn't go to the police. They went to the mafia. And when it came here, they, you know, kind of migrated to New York. And Sicilians, they were immigrants. You know, they were trying to make money so the mafia started rackets like where they got into the garment industries the the construction industry and um it really was about their own communities and benefiting themselves yeah and when you become part of that lifestyle you understand if you betray that lifestyle death is the you know that's the answer that's what happens if you betray that lifestyle

so that's what Cosa Nostra is it's a community of men that came together to be able to provide for their families through crimes or whatever but you're supposed to always be loyal to that lifestyle and if you're not it's death is the is the penalty so my father was intrigued with it from a young age you know he was in a young group called the rampers which eventually it was like a farm team for the mob and then he graduated um and became a member yeah he committed a murder when he was from it was a hit from a gangster that you know and that's how my father made his bones his bones in the mob literally and was um then created to be a made man. And he was made, I think, the year that I was born, which was 1972.

Or something like right around there. Yeah, I think I have it in my notes. Yeah. Let me put my bifocals on. Hold on. Yeah, keep going, though. So once you're a made man, it's like, you know. 1976.

76 he got made. Or maybe that murder was around the time I was born. That's where it says Castellano inducted Sammy into the mob. Yeah. So it was right around when I was born. He loved it, you know. He felt like he was part of a brotherhood. It was a community.

They took care of it. Everything that he believed in was Cosa Nostra. Yeah. And he lived it. Cosa Nostra. Yeah. And he lived it. He, you know, it didn't matter. If your family becomes second to Cosa Nostra, that's your first family. And my father was a very loyal soldier. He was very respected.

He was a very, you know, powerful person within that lifestyle. He had a huge hit team. And at the same time, Gotti was kind of growing in his ranks, but he was more from, and I know it's all New York, but back then it's like worlds apart. My father was from Brooklyn, and he was from Queens. So I guess when they kind of met each other, they both had respect. And how the whole Gotti administration,

so my father was from Brooklyn with this guy, Frankie DiCicco, who was another very powerful person within the mob. And they were very much into construction. So Paul Castellano is a construction guy. And is that what you believe that your dad was into? Like you didn't know that your dad was in the mob. I didn't know what the mob was. I kind of felt like we were different, but I just didn't know.

Yeah. You know, because so many people around me were the same, like my cousins and, you know, you're going to interview Ramona later, her family. It's like we all grew up in that lifestyle. We would go to school with other people and realize that we're different, but I never, like, felt like I was an outsider because I had a whole community that was the same as us.

Right. And, you know, they were very close knit. So my father was very big into construction. Like he could have probably been a huge construction person and like owns, you know, a big construction if he didn't do the mob stuff. But yeah, that's, you know, his thing was construction. He was he made a lot of money. So growing up in that, you know his thing was construction he was he made a lot of money so growing up in that you know of course you you as his daughter get the perks when did you finally start thinking to yourself like something's not right here like so I don't even know if saying not right is the thing or like hey I'm kind of like learning that your dad was in the mob? I always was like very, like I was a daddy's girl.

Right. So I was always intrigued with him. And I remember one night I was going to, I wanted to sleep at my friend's house. And my mother was like, no, you're sleeping home, whatever. And I remember my father had come home and he was doing something in the room. He was like very, you know, running around and he had left.

And that night I had said to my mother, can I sleep she was like no I want you home and then the next morning I see on the paper that the nightclub that my father owned the person was killed in the club Frank Fiala yes and then I remember did I say it right yeah so I'm reading it and I remember hearing prior that my father was having issues with the guy through a dinner conversation he was saying something to my uncle and then I looked at the paper and I'm he's dead and I'm like wait my father have anything to do with that and then here comes dad in the kitchen cooking hey girl you need anything like you know it's like no he couldn't have like and I was so young you don't ever look at your parent like they could be a bad person right especially someone that truly takes

care of you and loves you and protects you. That's gotta be a mind fuck almost in some sort of way because you get to see the loving human that he is and that's dad. And then, you know, in the papers and on the streets, it's like, he's this, you know. This, yeah. He's forced to be reckoned with.

So for a minute I thought about it but I was so young I never thought of it again and then um I had gone to a school it was like the school on the hill in Staten Island called Staten Island Academy and um I remember going over my friend's house which she lived like diagonal from Paul Castellano and I was to Paul Castellano's house with my father just in the car a couple of times and the girl said I said I think my father's friend lives over here somewhere and she goes oh not that house a big gangster lives there and I'm like a gangster what's that and in my head and she's like I don't know my father says that we shouldn't go by that house a gangster lives

there and I'm like well maybe if that guy's a gangster then my father could be a gangster we could live in a big house like you know I'm a child and this is what I'm thinking I didn't think of it as a bad you know thing um but when Paul Castellano was killed I knew that that was like the I knew my father was involved in that so let's get into that so after the whole thing with Frank Fiala I guess what had happened was Frank disrespected Sammy over a business deal. And that's when Sammy took him out. And after that, him and Gotti kind of teamed up to take out Paul Castellano. Correct.

So after that hit, Paul Castellano was going through some stuff. What happened was Gotti's crew was being investigated for drugs so it's a whole thing that's like a code in the mafia you cannot sell drugs because that now triggers DEA it's a whole different ball game so yeah so because like movies glamorize mobsters as being drug dealers pretty much too. It's a very big no-no in the mob. You're not supposed to be involved in that. So John Gotti's brother and someone else in his crew got arrested for heroin trafficking. But the problem was when they got the bugs and the search warrants

on Gotti's crew, one of the bugs picked up Angelo Ruggiero, who was John Gotti's right-hand man, talking about the mob. And he basically broke down the whole entire Cosa Nostra. He explained it, who said who the boss was. He explained that there's five families. So the FBI had this on tape. And Paul Castellano was so infuriated that these tapes came out that he wanted them,

and Gotti kept refusing to turn them over. So by Gotti not turning them over, Paul's either going to kill him or he's going to, you know, shelf him, which means dismantle his whole crew. He's not going to have any power in the mob. He will be shunned. So John had an incentive to want to kill Paul Castellano, but he knew he couldn't do it without my father and Frankie DiCicco

because they were the true powerhouse hit teams in the mob. it without my father and Frankie DeChico because they were the true powerhouse hit teams in the mob so um my father and Frankie at the time were going through their own separate thing with John because they felt that he was not trickling down the money I mean with Paul at the time Frankie DeChico my father were having their own issues with Paul because they felt he wasn't trickling the money down to his own family him and Chin which was another boss of the Genovese family were kind of getting rich up top and Paul wanted to be a businessman so they were going through their own things and um Angelo Ruggiero had reached out to my father and said listen we want to take out Paul and my father's like who's we and he's like me and John Gotti and my father's like, who's we? And he's like, me and John Gotti. And my father's like, well, why isn't John here talking to me?

He's sending you. So it kind of like started then. But Frankie DiCicco was like, Sammy, listen, John has an ego. He's out there. He wants to be somebody. And he's always in the limelight, too. Yes, he's in the limelight. Yes.

Yeah. So he said, let's take out Paul because it would be beneficial for us and let John be the boss. He has an ego. We don't want to go to war with him. We're going to go to war with all the old-timers, and we're doing an unsanctioned hit. In the mafia, you have to get it sanctioned,

which means you have to get the approvals of other families. So they just did the hit, and he was like, we're going to always have to watch the approvals of other families so they just did the hit and um he was like we're gonna always have to watch our back so let's let john do what he does and we'll be in the background six months from now if we can't control him we'll take him out and six months from the time that they did the castellano hit frankie de chico who was like a brother to my father he got blown up in a car outside of a cafe in bro in Brooklyn so while all this was going on this is like I'm seeing this this is like now it's really playing out like I get it my father's in the mob and this isn't just construction or you know how are you feeling though that's got to be

like such a heavy heavy feeling of like taking on like the father's you know responsibilities I guess because you know as daughters we kind of like Cause you know, as daughters, we kind of like, right. You know, it's like, we want our dad, we want to praise our dads. But at the same time, it's like, was it cool to you that what he was doing or were you kind of like, Oh my God, like, you know, this is like, how did you feel? So when I was home and I rested my head on my pillow at night, I was nervous. I thought about him, you know, possibly getting killed. Like there was at that particular time. I mean, I hate to say say it like this but there were bodies dropping all over yeah so that was on my mind but in the neighborhood that I grew up in everybody loved it I was looked at as the mafia princess oh this Sammy's daughter oh don't worry you don't have to pay a tab oh you want to get um rims on your car don't worry I

have to okay like you know I was right so it was like a catch 22 it was a catch 22 and I always say this in Brooklyn and Staten Island in the 80s and 90s in that whole era it was like being Sammy the Bull and John Gotti was bigger than being Brad Pitt in Hollywood like their respect they're notorious yes it's the most wonderful time of the year. Holidays on the house at DraftKings Casino. With the season's offerings, you'll unwrap everything that you wished for from table games and jackpots to a slot at the top of everyone's list. Jingle bells, power reels. DraftKings is offering a warm welcome to new players with $100 instantly in casino credits with just a $10 wager. Plus, everyone can get in on the action with a holiday reward every week. So sign up with code BUNNY, B-U-N-N-I-E, because the holiday cheer is here.

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Additional taxes, fees and restrictions apply. See Mint Mobile for details. And it's not just coming from like old women. And that's the thing about the mob. It's so family oriented and it brings it back to Cosa Nostra, right? It's this thing of ours and how they protect the families and the communities. Like old ladies would be like, Sammy, how are you? I bought you this.

So I'm like, how could he be such a bad guy and get so much respect? Right. And it's not just fear because I've seen times where people fear him, but it was truly genuine love and respect I feel like your dad only acted out when he had to when it was like survival of the fittest right I don't feel like he just went around capping people for no reason you know no no like he wasn't just do a drive-by no no absolutely not that is something that the mob don't do right it's rules and regulations and if you violate those rules and regulations

you know you die that's and that's an oath that all those men take and they understand and like my father will even say it till today like so be it you know if that's my faith then that's what i signed up for yeah i mean he's was actually a very good hit man so yeah it's crazy to say but he was actually so he knows that I mean there was a hit that came to Arizona for us wow and they were seconds away and then simultaneously we were being followed by the Phoenix PD and we were under an investigation for being a drug cartel yeah we're gonna get to that we're gonna get to that but there was a hit put on us and they did come to arizona yeah there's so much there's so many layers okay so i tell me about the time that your dad pulled a gun on you for sneaking out

so um as kids like we always would sneak out and like go hang out at the schoolyard because all the other you know everybody had they could be out to whatever hours but us we had we had to be home and um my father built me a beautiful house there he made my bedroom upstairs i had my own bathroom a sitting area just because he wanted my friends to come over be comfortable but you're not going to be in the schoolyard but he didn't stop us we were out every night and um one night ramona and her sister we went to the schoolyard. We were coming home and we would climb up the roof and go into my bedroom. We would enter into the bathroom of my bedroom and then go into the room. And as soon as we all climbed through the bathroom window and I opened the door

and my father was standing right there with a gun. And I was like, I don't know why, but I remember it so clearly. I'm like, Dad, hi. And I have my hands up. And he's still holding the gun. And I'm like, I just went to Miggy's. Do you want a sandwich? Miggy's is like a deli down the block from my house.

I'm like, do you want a sandwich? And he just, he looked at me and he said, do you see this? And I'm like, mm-hmm. He's like, do you know how close you just came to getting killed?'m like and he just slammed the door in my face he was probably so furious because he had to pull he accidentally pulled a gun on his daughter you know could you could you imagine the trauma that i mean your trauma also but the trauma that your dad has right from all the shit he's been through so in retrospect now going back it's like they were dropping bodies left and right so he doesn't know and he sees here's people running up on the roof yeah he could have

accidentally killed me and my mother just from sneaking out yeah my mother was like your father's so upset oh he almost killed you but thank god he didn't i'm totally glad that uh you're still here baby me too so moving on from the castellano hit um I'm just trying to paint a picture here of all the shit that you've had to go through with your family so that people can really wrap their head around it, and my listeners can. You know, Gotti started bringing too much attention, and your dad started disagreeing with it.

The FBI built a case. And then your dad had to go on the lam for a little bit. Yes. Can we dive into that? Like, how does that make you feel as a daughter, knowing your dad has to go into hiding? Because, you know, so I remember it too. My cousin had a confirmation party. We were all there and I was having a good time. And my father said, when we go home, we're all gonna have to talk to you guys. And I remember driving home in the car.

I said, go upstairs, get dressed, you know, get changed out of your clothes and come back down. And I came downstairs and he's like, I'm going to go away. And I'm like, you're going to jail? He's like, no, I'm going to go away. He's like, I want you to know that I'm going to be okay, but I can't have any communication with you guys for a while. And if you need anything, you know, louie your uncle eddie like you can pass messages but i can't talk to you and you know and i'm like okay he's like you may hear things i

might be dead just know if you need to hear anything or you want to pass the message to me you know go through your uncle and it was just so weird because there was probably so many things racing through my head like but i didn't ask like it's just nobody never told me everyone asked me like you didn't ask questions your mother didn't ask no we were just very calm it was like we were going through the motions and this is what it was normal for you it was normal chaos that's traumatic so he um he left because they got a tip that the gadi indictment was coming down and my father was going to be pulled in. And John felt that if my father left, they wouldn't be able to indict them. It would screw up the case.

But I think he also maybe subconsciously knew maybe he talked too much and that those tapes were a lot of him talking about my father. I don't know. He's not here to speak on it. But he just felt that my father being gone would be able to screw up the indictment. So my father went on the lam for a couple of months or whatever. I don't remember exactly how long it was. And he just said it was just too much. Like, he couldn't communicate.

They were following us, like, literally. I was going to school. Who's they? The FBI. So I was going to school, and they the FBI so I was going to school and I'd turn and like there'd be the FBI it was like to the point where I'd be like oh hey like you guys want coffee or anything so I've ever become friendly with any of the FBI agents because they were just following you so much or cordial not friendly but cordial no I would see

them no and actually there was a time where they they like kidnapped me and brought me to Quantico which was FBI headquarters when my father did cooperate um and I was like I hope we all die in this plane my mother's like just shut up I was a typical teenager but I thought like if it got to the point where I almost thought like if I died my father wouldn't cooperate that's how bad I didn't want him to do it. Like that's how much I didn't understand. And I literally would be like, if something just happens to us, especially me, he won't go through with it. And I found out later through George Gabriel actually was an FBI agent who did an interview

and I was watching it on TV. And he said, Sammy almost stopped his whole deal because of Karen. And I didn't know that because I was so against it. I really couldn't like fathom that even happening. It's still something that I struggle with today. It took me a long time to be able to get to understand. And for those at home that are listening, why? Why was it so hard for you to understand?

I understand why but you know maybe people who haven't ever really known about the mafia lifestyle ratting is the ultimate betrayal right right that's you should you should die before you rat and that's what you know even my brother and me would have fights in the house and we'd get in trouble for telling on each other like that's how serious it was um so my father to do that i couldn't understand because that's so not who he was you know he faced murder trials before i didn't you know and he later told me and if you ever sat down with him he'll tell you the same thing he struggles with it maybe he should have killed john in jail and i believed that for a long time

would he still be in prison? Had he not? Yeah, he would have got life. And it wasn't even about life. I think my father at that point was the betrayal. He couldn't, he couldn't just take it. He was hurt and he felt disrespected. So let's circle back to that. Your dad, when you, how did you find out that your dad was going to, cause we spoke about this earlier and, um, earlier was that Gotti was pretty much turning on your dad. And your dad kept warning him and was like, hey man, this is not how it happened. Trying to separate the trials and then heard the tapes. And then that's when your dad decided to do what he did. What,

how did you learn about that? Um, so originally my father was in jail for a year. He was going to fight the case, you know, he was, but it became the lawyers reached out to my father through my uncle and said, John's controlling the defense. He, the lawyer told him that John doesn't want the lawyer to be able to have a lawyer client meeting without John being present he wants to know everything that goes on the lawyer also felt that if he didn't obey John's rules John would kill him and then the lawyer felt if he double crossed my father my father would kill him so he was in a kind of like a catch-two um and he but he did tell my father and um at the time you know john was like well these tapes if you ever listen to the gadi tapes it's pretty much john saying well i lost control

of sammy the bull he killed this guy and took over this business he killed this guy and took over that business but my father was very loyal to cousin ocean and he didn't kill anyone unless it came orders from the boss so he was just trying to pass it off right so he didn't have to take full responsibility he was in a conversation at the Ravenite Social Club in the apartment upstairs with Frankie Lacascio who passed away he was the third person that was arrested in that whole gaudy thing and um he was ranting and raving about my father. And if you listen to the full tape, Frankie says, Sammy's downstairs, John.

He's not like that. If you have a problem with him, talk to him. Tell him to take it in. But he's right downstairs. I'm telling you, you're miss, you know. But John just kept over-talking him. And he's like, he's got construction. He killed DB.

He killed this one. Do you think he was building the case with the feds because he knew that the room was bugged I in my when this first happened I thought maybe and I like to tell myself that because I was like oh he set my father up I don't know I just I just believe that he and so what prior to that happening um the feds came to John Gotti and they told him there's a hit out. Chin and Gas Pipe, which are other very powerful mobsters, put a hit out because of the Castellano hit. So the feds told John they tipped him off. But Chin and Gas Pipe actually came to my father and they said, John's too flashy. He's bringing

attention to this lifestyle we're gonna take him out and we want you to be the boss my father shook hands with gas pipe who's a very notorious powerful person how does he get that nickname i don't know i would love to know like who came up with that nickname? I know they have all these weird nicknames. That's wild. But, and he told Gas, we're on opposite ends of the war now. And he went directly to John and said, listen, there's a hit on you. The feds had just told him. So he's like, how do you know that?

And he's like, they came to me. They want me to take you out. Well, whatever, but let's strap up and let's just go to war with them. John didn't look at that as, this man is so loyal to me. He looked at his jealousy and that my father could possibly have more power. So it kind of caused the riff. So what I believe in my heart was because of that, John was threatened by my father and his ego.

So he was setting my father up to get killed because if that, my father could have been his rival you know what i mean it could have been the person that could have took over he was the only other powerful one that could have taken him down so um i believe that he was setting him up in that conversation and he was trying to get frankie in that apartment that night while the fbi was recording it to agree with him that my father's greedy. We should kill him. But Frankie was inviting and he's saying, Sammy's not like that. I'm telling you, he's loyal to you. Just bring him up here. So once they had that tape, that was the the crumble of the Sammy the Bull,

John Gotti relationship because and the government was very strategic. They played the tapes in court and then they locked them in the same cell so they had to go in so of course you know my father's fuming john's like oh i was just blowing off steam and my father's like oh blowing off steam but now i'm facing a life sentence and now you're telling me i can't defend myself yeah because i'm indicted on murders because of you and this is known fact you can go back and do all the research. They have thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of surveillance and bugs that were put on my father. And not one person was ever indicted. Nobody ever got in trouble, nor has he ever badmouthed John.

So that was, and I think, you know, John knew at that point. My father, like, and my father said I did plan on killing him. I was going to wait until we got out. I love your dad. He's like, you know, I was just going to take him out. So initially he thought of doing it in jail. And I think he, like, you know, I asked him, I'm like, why? I mean, why don't you just stay true to who you were?

Like, why don't you just kill him? And he just said, I just broke. Like, honestly, I just felt betrayed by he just said I just broke like honestly I just felt betrayed by a brother I just I started thinking of the life like my mother's brother was killed because of that lifestyle everything that has happened and you know just seeing everything he was like I was just done I just threw in the towel and that was my way out you know so how did you feel when your dad sat you down and you know told you you said you talked about being on the plane and like saying that you hope the plane went down and stuff like that. But did you ever tell your dad how you felt?

So originally before they even took me on the plane, it was about a week before the news came out that he was going to flip. Mind you, I'm 19 years old at this time. You don't know all the details. I have no idea. Like, I'm just finding this out. The things that I believed in my head, I'm starting to read in the newspaper but me and my father never had a conversation even him being in jail it was more like hey how you doing like you know we never talked about criminal stuff or anything his case we were just there to visit him

so he calls me up to the mcc for a visit and he comes out and i just his whole demeanor was just different my father's like the world can be crumbling down. He's like, we got this. We're going to stand tall. We're going to be together. And, um, he came out and he just looked me in the eyes and he said, I'm going to do something that goes against everything that I believe in and everything that I've ever taught you to believe in. And when he said that, I just knew like, but I was like, there's no way he's going to tell me this right now. He said, I'm going to cooperate with the government. And I said, you're going to rat. And my uncle was there. And my uncle was actually the one that told my father that he should do this, brought the messages from the lawyer. And, um, my father had a lot of money out on the

streets and he was the one that was going to go collect all the money. And my uncle, I have all cousins there. We were all going to leave together as a family. And I remember saying, you're going to rat. And my father, I think, was like taken back. He just looked at me, and my uncle goes, watch your mouth. And my father's like, no, let her talk. And I said, this is what you're going to do. You're going to leave me and mommy and whatever.

And he's like, you're not going to understand. Maybe someday you will, but you don't understand this life. And I'm like, no, I don't understand this, and I never will. And I got up. And when I got up, I started walking to the door and um I came sat back down it was short-lived um the visit we left and we were driving back to Staten Island and picture like I'm this mob princess I go visit my father in jail whatever and in my head I'm like the only thing I can think of like everyone's gonna turn on me like what's gonna happen are we gonna get killed like Ramona who's I'm with every single day you

till today you know her family's in that lifestyle like who who do I trust and my uncle I get to the house it's you know maybe a 45 minute drive and my mother gets out of the car and my uncle goes come here let me tell you something I said why goes, you can never say whatever happened in that room. They'll kill you. They'll kill your mother. They'll kill your brother. I'm like, I don't even care. And he said, no, you should care.

Even if you don't care about yourself. I'm 19. Remember, this is like, yeah, I care about your brother. Care about your mother. You can't say that. You don't understand this life. So, of course, I don't want anything to happen to anyone. You know, I go in the house.

And as soon as we walked in, my mother said, mother said listen I said I'll never go in the witness protection program I will never go with you guys and she said I will never go I will stand here with you you know so we're we're together it's me you and your brother so um as that happened I know you're gonna make me cry but as that happened I I know you're going to make me cry too. But as that happened, I was like, you know, that whole week, I'm like, I'm not going. Like, there's no way. And she's like, you don't have to. We're here. That's it. That's all you had to say.

And she told my father, we're not going with you. That's it. It's done. I was never part of your mob decisions when you did stuff in the street. And I'm not going to be part of this now. I'm going to raise my kids and I'm going to stand on my own. My father's like, you have a ton of money. You know, just whatever.

The next, I guess my father called it off. Like he told the government, like, I don't care. I'm not doing it. They're like, you can't go back into MCC now. They're going to kill you. He's like, I don't care. So the government now says we have to get Karen here. I'm a 19 year old.

I didn't know I was this instrumental in this and if I would have known I would have trust me I would have probably stopped it but I didn't know what was happening at the time so um I guess my mother agreed to he said I want to see her one time so she agreed and I went to the Woodbridge heart yeah I went to the Woodbridge mall and all of a sudden I go to get out of the car and here come these agents. And they're like, hi, Karen. I'm like, I thought it was it. I thought I was getting kidnapped. I was taken.

That's it. I'm like, I don't know how you don't have post-traumatic stress disorder. Do you have PTSD? So no, I really don't. My brother deals with some stuff like he does. He has some, you know, he has more stuff about what happened in Arizona because he holds a lot of guilt about the whole ecstasy thing and the whole family getting arrested and that's really where we lost everything we're gonna get to that too yeah so the agents came so the agents came they took us on a

plane no no the agents came to the mall because your dad wanted to see you yeah one last time oh and that's when they took you on the yes they took us i agreed to get in the car i was like just one time so i got so they just take you and leave your shit where it's at well they took us I agreed to get in the car I was like just one time so I got so they just take you and leave your shit where it's at well they took us we pulled up and we got in the car and we went into like a private jet and they took us to Quantico which is like FBI headquarters and it's kind of like cliche because when we got there they had like cannolis and Italian bread and mozzarella and I'm like, what is this? Italian feast.

And my father's like, yeah, they overdid it. They were like trying to make you happy, like whatever, I guess. So they have this whole Italian feast out. And he's like, what do you want? And I said, I want to know the truth. Like, why are you doing this? And we sat there for hours and he explained it. And still, I didn't really comprehend it.

And he's like, but you don't have to come. And he's like, I'm always going to love you and I'm always going always gonna love you and I'm always gonna be here and I'm like I'll always love you too but I'm not going in the witness protection program like we agreed to love each other but I wasn't and um I was like okay so he's like I'm just gonna let you know that some things are gonna come out and I'm like okay like what he's like you're like like murder and so i was like okay who's got a teenager we do and guess what she is ridiculously hard to keep track of and if i didn't have life 360 on my phone i would never know where this kid is the entire family and i have life 360 and my husband actually uses it more than i do he knows where everybody is at every time which i think is so funny but i'm telling you right now life 360 if you have a, especially one that's newly licensed, you want to know how

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That's Life360.com, code BUNNY, B-U-N-N-I-E. He's like, yeah, I was involved in murder. And I'm like, that man when I was a kid and you left the house, the nightclub, he's like, and Paul Castellano, he's like, and like 17 other ones. I'm like, 17? I didn't really, I mean, I'm not laughing because people did. You have to laugh through the trauma, for sure.

I was like, I didn't think it was going to be that much. And, you know, there was a murder that was involved, my mother's brother. So we as a family have to accept that and understand. And it made me have to really dig deep inside. I couldn't be angry at just one murder when there was all these others. And like, what is this lifestyle? So from the time I left that visit, then I get home right so we leave that visit and the news broke that he was going to cooperate we're driving and it wasn't supposed

to break yet and it's literally on 10 10 news and all I'm like every station like the underboss the most powerful organized crime family cooperated I'm like no change the station I'm like we get to the house and the whole house is surrounded by news media and I'm like we go inside and of course my father's people come over and my uncle who was in that conversation is like there with them and he's playing this whole role like he wasn't involved and none of us knew you know that that conversation he's acting like never took place and they're like we're gonna give you cyanide and you're gonna go take this to your father and you're gonna tell him to take himself out they don't know that i just came from visiting him so i'm like they're telling you this yeah that is so hurtful and traumatic to say that

to somebody's daughter yeah and that's the fact my father had called i just started crying i'm like you have to take yourself out you can't do this you can't and he said that he knew where it was coming from because I'm like he's like who's there I'm like John Gotti jr uncle Eddie this one that one he said I hung the phone up and I just said what did I do like here's my family in a house with people that are just she trusted them like a day ago like these were people that would die for her and now they're telling her to go kill her father like it's just he said what did I fucking do and he said I hung the phone up I said I looked at myself in the mirror he goes it was my weakest moment but I said Sammy you have to go all the way now you know and that's when he he did it he you know the feds came and I mean

the rest is history of the trial the whole nine but it was crazy um during all this how is karen feeling are you angry are you sad like so angry yeah and everybody like is what i thought so here's all my nobody was they were told you're not allowed to go to her house she's not allowed here i'm 19 so i was shunned so what do i want to do i want to act out and i want to be bad that's how i am because if i'm bad maybe these people will accept me again and they won't think what my father did so what did i do sold drugs dated bad boys home invasions like it was just it was a bunch of stuff that was out of my character but i just acted so like you were traumatized and you were you you had a voice but you didn't really have a choice you know so it was like you

just went balls to the wall yeah like acted out out of rebellion i mean rightfully so because you you know you didn't ask for all this no and it was the other you know even people like I didn't trust anybody Italian like to be around them were you scared to death to like go anywhere or like did you ever feel like somebody was going to take you out because of everything that happened yeah I did especially when the hit came and they you know the government came and told my father there was a hit my brother was was 15 or 16 years old, you know. So, but my outlet was, well, first of all, I would hang out. I went to like a whole other.

Then I started hanging out with gangs in Coney Island. It was, you know, I stayed away from Italians. I really positioned myself. I was like, no more mob. Now I'm into drug dealing and stuff. You're like, no more mobsters. I'm just going to go to drug lords. Yes, that's kind of how it happened. So yeah I mean I always thought about it but it's just I couldn't you know I lived my life took some ecstasy went to clubs just got to have kind of a childhood

and you know just learned from your mistakes so when did you decide to go back out to Arizona to reunite with your dad? Is that what happened? Yes. Okay. So my father had, I was here and I had a weed service. And things started getting crazy. That was a whole other thing. People were getting robbed, shooting this.

That was like. This is before weed was legal too, right? Yeah. How did you have a fucking weed service? An all-girl amount. They have them everywhere now now too like you were like before your time yeah and we I mean we I can sit here and ramble off every person we deliver to but I'm talking like not even rappers actresses models there was lawyers yeah and you know judges

like it was just crazy so but it started escalating and I remember one time I went to the source magazine and my um my dealer name was Gina I would go in and act and this was before my father was in the newspaper mind you all the time but I would just go by a whole other name so I was talking to the guy and what was your other name that you would Gina Gina okay gotcha so I'm talking to this guy who believed my name was Gina this I used to you know sell him weed for like months and he worked at the source magazine and he used to give us tickets to events and so he says hey what are you gonna do tonight and I go um I don't know probably nothing he's like well here Karen here's some tickets so I go oh thank you and I caught it but I was like wait did he say but I was like did he say Karen did he not

say Karen whatever so I get up and I go to leave and he's like all right Miss Gravano I'll see you later so I stop and I look and he goes everyone knows who you are he's like your father's in the newspaper every day he's like and I heard a situation happen at a club where you guys were involved and there was like some mess happened he goes, if some shit goes down, you're going to be the full, you know, the full guy or the full girl. Yeah. It's going to be a problem. He's like, you seem so different,

like intelligent and stuff. Why don't you just like do something legitimate? And I'm like, why don't I? Because I could, right? Like, I don't know. That's amazing. Yeah. I'm like, why didn't, why am I doing this?

Isn't that crazy how you could be like living a certain lifestyle and one person can say something to you yeah and you're just like it's like an epiphany like a light bulb goes off and you're like you know what motherfucker you're right yeah so um I'm like let me go to Arizona I want to go to skin school I'm going to start something totally different and my father had just gotten out of prison and had you talked to your dad in between here did he know yeah he didn't know all the stuff that was happening like that i was doing but um he would get bits and actually while i was with lee we were living in the house he said the fbi came one day and they're like listen your daughter's gonna have a big

problem they're about to raid her house and he's like for what and he're like, listen, your daughter is going to have a big problem. They're about to raid her house. And he's like, for what? And he's like, bank robbery. And he's like, well, at least she graduated from petty larceny. My father's a jokester. But it was starting to escalate. He kind of knew I was rebelling and doing stuff. So when he came out, we just had a coming to like life moment and we had a whole conversation he described everything like and really got into detail and he's like I just want a different life

for you guys you know I just want you to have kids and never have to look over your shoulder and you know we had that whole conversation and I agreed to come to Arizona and I was pregnant when I came when I came back yeah how old were you 26 when I got pregnant I was like around there and Lee is not the father no okay god he is not the father he is not the father no uh-uh um okay do you want to talk about your baby daddy yeah okay I met Karina's father um so that was a whole other thing because my daughter's biracial. So her dad is black, Cuban, and Puerto Rican. And that was for me, like, after everything that happened,

I just wasn't attracted to Italian men anymore. I just didn't know who to trust. Rightfully so. Yeah, it just was like. You've been through some shit, girl. So when I had met her dad, it was like, you know, he's it. He was, you know been through some shit yeah so when i had met her dad it was like you know he's it he was you know it was her dad's a great guy we're like the best of friends now still and um yeah when i i didn't know how that was gonna be my father like you know in the lifestyle

that i grew up in it's usually like you date your family meets the person. And here I am, I'm pregnant. How did you meet him? Where did you meet him at? I met him at the China Club in New York City. He was actually with Jam Master Jay, which is from like Run DMC. And I was doing my weed thing. And I see them all come in and my Jennifer's like, they look like they smoke weed. So I walk over and I like give them some weed I'm like hey if you want more of that hit me up he's like I'm like Gina my name

my number's on the card so for like the first two weeks I'm only calling you Gina yeah the first two weeks that we kind of um dated he thought I was Gina like so so he had no idea who you were no because like back then even was like sammy the bull like the name was more notorious in the face the face it wasn't so um i and especially like in staten island everyone knew who i was but here i'm going all the way to like queens and i like it's like a world away now but um he so I had gone and it was my father was on the front page of the newspaper and I'm like in the deli and he's like picking it up and he's reading it and stuff and we get in the car he has the newspaper sitting right there he's looking and I'm like I have something to tell you and he's like well I'm like my name's not Gina and he's

like who are you then and then he's like and he's laughing I'm like no it name is not Gina and he's like who are you then and then he's like and he's laughing I'm like no it's really not Gina and he's like well what's your name then I'm like Karen and he's like so why would you tell me Gina I'm like I put the paper over I'm like that's my dad he's like okay it was funny was he bothered by it at all no but I think he was just in shock yeah like the the whole but no he was just like whatever it bothered by it at all? No, but I think he was just in shock. Yeah. Like the whole. But no, he was just like, whatever. It is what it is. He just loved you for you.

Mm-hmm. I love that. Yeah. You deserve that. So, yeah, then Dave and I moved to Arizona. Dave. Yeah. That's Karina's dad.

Mm-hmm. Okay, awesome. We moved to Arizona and we rekindled my father. We're, you know, back in action. What was that like seeing your dad after not seeing him for so long? It was just like we didn't miss a beat. And my father's such like a businessman. Like he's like a hustler.

So I always admired that about him. And I think that I took that away as well. Excuse me. But I feel like he was already in, he had a pool company. He was already doing construction. He was building apartment complexes. So I'm like, okay, I kind a pool company. He was already doing construction. He was building apartment complexes.

So I'm like, okay, I kind of stepped right. In Arizona. He already started. Okay. All that. So when I had come out, that's what we were all getting into.

He had a construction office. And, my cousin's boyfriend started dabbling around with ecstasy. And of course. Ecstasy was huge back then. It was like the drug of choice. So, you know, here I go is I know people in New York where you can get it from. And it kind of just took on. It was like they had an investigation going on prior to the people who we dealt with.

They were watching them. But when we kind of stepped in it was a two-month investigation because they realized who my brother was and who my father was they were able to make a case real quick um they didn't have anything on my father really but they had on my brother and i feel like your dad is so smart like he never like gets shit pinned on him unless it's other people right getting him caught up that's exactly what happened so when they um they arrested all of us which is kind of crazy and i learned a lot about the legal system that's why i'm so into like prison reform now and stuff but they created this case and they called it a universal case which means they

arrested my mother because they said she was the bank roller because there was money kept in her house. My father, who they said was the boss. My daughter's father, who was the runner. Me, I was the go-between between Dave and my brother, and my brother was the muscle out there that really brought it all in. So they had a lot of evidence on my brother. And my father was like, fuck it, I'm going to trial. They don't have nothing. me i had nothing i'm literally charged with illegal use of an electronic

communication and a drug transaction wow that i never had a crime before that so i would have got a slap on the hand but because my father's sammy the bull we were all facing major time they did all this forfeiture which is like if they go in and say it's ill-gotten gains, we now have to prove, which they knew. How you got it. Yeah, which they knew where we got it. I mean, my father, when he left New York after the whole mob thing or whatever,

he had millions of dollars. Yeah, for sure. You know, we had houses, cars, restaurants, but they took it all. And they took my father, and they basically had everyone saying that Sammy was the boss. Meanwhile, he was bringing these kids in. The kid that my brother was dealing with, he came to my father like, listen, I sold drugs or whatever.

I got some money. I want to become legit. So my father brought him into the pool company. But they were still hustling and doing whatever. And you're guilty by association. My father had the name and it makes careers like janet napolitano became the governor of arizona after that then she went on to become the homeland security the head of homeland security because she took down sammy the bull

yes it's crazy so the whole case in arizona pretty much they were like listen sammy you're an embarrassment you got six years for 19 murders, and now you're out here selling ecstasy with your kids. We don't care what your involvement is. You take the fall because we have to redeem ourselves. And that's pretty much what happened in Arizona. You know, a little bit more uncomplicated, but it's pretty much the gist of it.

In a nutshell. And my brother went to jail for nine and a half years. My daughter's father went to jail for nine and a half years. And's father went to jail for nine and a half years and you know me and my mother stayed home and raised the kids but dad how long did dad go away for 18 years 18 years for that like they just you know yeah threw the book at him which anyone would never got that but here we are you know I mean we so what do you do after your brother's in jail your dad's in jail and you are left at home and baby daddy's in jail and you are left at home with your mom to literally pick up the pieces with nothing left like they took they wiped you guys out yeah yeah thank god

i went to school to become an esthetician and then i also well at the time I was who's gonna hire me right so my friend is like she was dancing at the strip club Christy's Cabaret she's like come into the club I'm like girl I just had a kid I'm fat I'm chubby there's no way I can dance or she beautiful face thank you she goes no well maybe you can come in and be a house mom I'm like she's like just come in we'll figure something out there's money there so I come in and I meet Warren who's like amazing he's very big in that industry or whatever he's like come here sweetheart let's talk and I go in the room and I'm like just like I came from New York and the hustle is like men are hustlers out there right and it's more organized crime drugs this I walked into a whole world that was like women and costumes.

And I was like, what's happening here? Like I'm all. You're like, honey, I'm home. Yeah, literally. So he takes me in the office and he's like, listen, I know your story. I know everything. I'm like, yeah, I just want to be low key. He goes, well, I could hire you for the house, mom.

He's like, but I can't fire her right now. It'll be a transition. What do you do? I said, well, I know how to do skincare and stuff he goes what about makeup I'm like kind of yeah it's like good you're the new makeup artist he goes you're gonna come in here and you're gonna I'll never forget this he was like you're gonna make these women need you and I looked at him and he goes they're gonna like you but when they need you you'll make money I'm like what does he mean by that it took me a long time because I actually did go from the the makeup artist to being the house mom and I learned the whole flow of the club and how from the minute

someone walks in that has money to like calling the girls and the girls that don't tip stay longer on stage and I kind of like ran all that because I am it's in my nature and I killed it and it was that I started working in the strip club and when mob wives came calling that's where I was working we were actually going to try to film there and stuff but everyone was like no we don't want cameras here so um yeah it's crazy I went and. And it's just honestly, the whole East Coast is so different from the West Coast. Oh, for sure. I grew up on the West Coast. Yes.

And you'd think because you're coming from the East Coast, we're so fast and slick and like we could talk circles around you guys and nobody. Yeah. We were hustlers. I grew up in that industry. So, I mean, I know nothing but women who get money yeah you know and it's just a different mindset uh-huh I feel like just west coast women are just trained to go you know yeah like from get you just trained to go and some of my best friends are still from there I remember when I first went into the club the girl's like she's one of my

best friends she was like yeah girl don't worry i got your back she had just come back from the bunny ranch and i'm like this is she's like yeah i caught a case i had to go out there and make 10 racks real quick and i'm like that's a different life i never did the bunny ranch that's a different lifestyle those girls out there those girls out there are just savages like i have the most respect for them because that's a whole different lifestyle i couldn't too many rules i'm like a renegade and i think for me the biggest thing that why I wrote my book that was like that's my baby like Mobwise was just but my book was what's the name of your book it was called um Mob Daughter okay it was a New York Times bestseller yes baby I was very proud of it but for me um I just came to terms with everything in my life like who I am you have to be responsible

for your own choices like I think I blamed my father and then I was mad at this and just the way I acted out and it just everybody goes through those emotions but once you can kind of like finally sit down and internalize who you are it like that's when I was just like okay and I hate people that judge other people yeah so my whole life I've been judged. Oh, Sammy's daughter, she can't come. Don't put her on the show. Or, you know, she did this. Or she said this on the show.

Or she worked in a strip club. It's like when I finally came out on the reality show and I sat back one day and I'm like, look at all these people on social media. Like sitting here just judging other people. Judging. That's all they do. Really lonely people in their lives, miserable. And it's just every day just made me come back stronger.

And that's just, you know, I wound up getting a deal after Mob Wives. I got a deal with the network. So I produced a show called Families of the Mafia. We did two seasons. They were going to come back for a third season. But my daughter's like, if you fucking associate me as a mob kid one more time because my daughter is a hustler in her own right she works in finance isn't that crazy how it comes around full circle she's like i don't want to be known as this mob grandkid what are you going to be like my kids kids kids are going to be like the

mom this is my so my great great great grandfather would be still doing shows. So we decided not to go with the third season, but I actually am working on a scripted show with them. So I'm excited for you. Have you ever gone to therapy? No. You have never gone to therapy after all you've been through, girl. You are a tough cookie, dude. Holy shit.

And to be so well-rounded. Right. And like, do you suffer from anxiety or anything like that my daughter does because my daughter was actually in the house when they arrested her father when later on he got rearrested yeah and I think that and she was also in the house when they arrested us she was a baby and I don't think she could remember it but I don't know if it trumps she's always had anxiety as a kid and I'm like her her Xanax like she calls me like I always keep my phone close because when she needs she's like what are you doing I'm here okay bye she just has to

hear my voice do you ever feel like all of that's gonna catch up to you one day like mentally and emotionally or do you just always feel like you've always had to be the rock I feel like I always had to be the rock like and I'm not just saying this because you're here remember I had told you so my brother I think he's he everything that happened with the whole ecstasy thing I think he holds a lot of guilt so he comes out of prison and he struggles with you know some mental health issues and like just just you know and then one day like me and him we were having a heart-to-heart and'm like, I'm always the rock for that. And then I'm sleeping.

It's three o'clock in the morning and he sends me this song. And I'm like, I told you. And I'm like, I can't see. I don't have my glasses. And I hear somebody save me. And I'm like, what the fuck is this? And I'm listening and listening. And in New York, it's three hour difference.

And I'm like calling him I'm calling I actually sent the song to my father my father's like yeah I know jelly roll what do you mean he's like I listen I like the music my husband's gonna love that Sammy the Bull knows who he is he's like I love the music so I'm like no but Gerard sent this to me and I'm like and I I know this is I'm not just saying it because I'm having this conversation but I listened to this song and it's like I kind of internalized with it and I'm like so when Gerard when I finally got a hold of him like are you okay and he's like no he's like I watched a documentary on this guy you don't know about him and I'm like no I said but could you have chose a different song like I'm thinking something is like going on with you poor Karen and um he's like no whatever so um I watched the

documentary it was great by the way but um I think sometimes people find people that they could relate to and maybe for my brother whatever he was going through like he just I mean he he was like no I was just sending it to you because I liked it I wanted you to see the documentary I'm like you could have put that in the thing yeah next time send the fucking text with the song yeah so um I feel like even me being able to express myself on the show or talk about it maybe that was my therapy yeah you know I think a lot of times being able to get it out where it's not like just your people you could say it and other people can hear it it's like you go through things and sometimes you don't yeah writing books was a huge therapy for me people you sometimes you don't. Yeah. Writing books are therapeutic. It was a huge therapy for me.

You know, you don't understand it, but when someone else is like, thank you. You know, I read your story. It was a struggle. I was going through a hard time. Might not be the same hard time I was going through or, you know, different situations. And working in the strip club, I met a lot of girls. And, you know, I think for a big thing with me, it was like I was so angry, but everybody has a story.

Yeah. And there's one that stands out in my head. This girl would work in there, and she was beautiful. And she would come in and just be like a bitch, right? I was like, I don't like her. Like me and her at one time. And I had makeup out one day, and she's just touching my stuff. And I'm like, you know I buy that, right?

You have to tip for it. And she's like flings it down. I'm like, oh, my God, me and this girl one day are gonna be rolling around the floor so one day she's in the dressing room and um she's holding her head and I'm like what happened and she's like you feel this and it was like a big bump in the head anyway to make a long story short she told me that her father had raped her and then hit her in the head with a thing and it was just like and I got it at that moment I'm'm like, that's why you're so angry. Oh my gosh.

So everybody has a story and everybody goes through their stuff. And sometimes just being able to sit down and talk about it, you know? Yeah, absolutely. Can we talk about your dad's Instagram? I just discovered, the only reason why I discovered this is because Ramona told me about it. Oh yeah. And I went, she thinks it's hilarious. I went and looked at it yesterday.

He is fucking hilarious. What the hell is dad doing over there? He's just having a ball. Sammy the bull is on Instagram. He's probably jealous. I'm here with you now too. Tell dad, come on the show.

I would love to have him. He did. I just found out that he did a podcast with our homie, Brendan Chobb. Yeah. And we love Brendan. So yeah, tell him he's always welcome to come on the show. I would love to have him. He did. I just found out that he did a podcast with our homie Brendan Chobb. Yeah. And we love Brendan. So yeah. Tell him he's always welcome to come on the show. I'll tell him. I love it. Yeah. I checked out his fucking Instagram and I was like, this is fucking hilarious. Like what a crazy world we live in and different times we live in that he can have done everything that he did, being an underboss and all this shit, to being kind of like a comedian on social media. Like, is that not crazy how our parents get older and get weirder?

That's what I always think. My dad is so cool now. My dad's so cool and so weird now. I'm just like, why couldn't you have been this guy back then, you know? My father has always been a jokester. Like, he'll always make light. And I remember when my whole family got arrested and we're in court and we're like going to take our pleas and I was just like blank like I forgot everything you know I'm like scared I get up there they're like how old are you and I'm like I couldn't even think how old I was so I look back

and my father goes don't lie now you're on toes and I'm like and the whole courtroom cracks up and I'm like he just always um but yes he's funny that is hilarious yeah well what can we expect from you what can what's Karen got cooking in the kitchen man so um I just opened a spa in Haslett New Jersey Body Depot we do body contouring facials and um remember I went to school as an esthetician back in the day so that has still stuck with me. Literally, like there I do the treatments. I love it. I love being there.

And I'm also working in negotiations with Showtime right now for a show. So you got that hustling spirit, girl. I love that about you. It's so admirable. I do want to write a second book. I felt like people have asked me and I just wasn't at a place where I felt like significant things happen in my life that I was I felt like you know I want to really you're at a place where you felt like significant things haven't happened in your life well prior I wrote one book now I have to have now I have a couple more things that happen in my life

so yeah I'm I'm actually um helping someone get out of prison up turn over a life sentence which is very um important to me like prison reform so I've been working a lot on that because it's just you know a lot of stuff has gone on with that and yeah just waking up being me just being calm like how this is your time to just really just shine and just you went through so much chaos in the beginning of your life that I feel like this is this is your time to just really just shine and just, you went through so much chaos in the beginning of your life that I feel like this is, this is your time to shine and just coast. Like you deserve that, dude. Yeah. I appreciate you so much coming on this podcast and I hope that people getting to hear your story now from your mouth and you know, everybody, when they do the mob wife aesthetic,

like it's cute and we all do it, you know, for views and stuff like that. But there's a real lifestyle behind that. Yeah. You know, and you definitely embrace it and embody it. And the fact that you've never had therapy fucking is mind blowing to me. I get asked that and a lot of even like for me, I felt like obviously I'm really attached to that life. And when we did mob wivesives they were like I said it's there's so much more to the lifestyle and if you're really going to put me in a category

with any women even though they don't like me the Victoria Gotti's and the people that have struggled trials tribulations because no matter whatever happened between our I mean we'll always be joined whether we like each other or not so I will always have a mutual respect for them in a way um because i understand like they lost their father too yeah there are really people out there that lost their parents that lifestyle whether it's dead or in prison and um it's it's not easy you know so for me even when i got out there and everyone's like mom mob wives they're making a mockery or they're doing this and you know it was it was it was what it was and that's like, mom, mob wives, they're making a mockery or they're doing this. And, you know, it was, it was, it was what it was. And that's what it was definitely not intended for that. And I think, um, you know, when you really watched it, you understood that it was about women

and their stories, but for all my other mob wife families out there or mob families out there, like I, it is. And for you to say that, cause it is a lifestyle and there's a lot more behind it than just a mob wife aesthetic or, you know, movies it's and it's it's um it'll be with me forever but it is who I am and it's made me who I am and that's why I will continue to be forever you know everything that is whether it's the bad things or the good things are you know sketched in my life and will make me always want to be able to talk to people or help anyone in a situation because I understand that. So I love that you're a strong ass bitch. Thank you. So are you. You don't you don't have to compliment me back. You got to take your flowers. No, because I thank you. Thank you. But I also went when because I know because Ramona said,

oh, Bunny's doing, you know, homework on us. Yeah. Let me do a little homework on Bunny. Oh, yeah. But I admire everything that you've been through, you know, homework on us. Yeah. Let me do a little homework on Bunny here. Oh, yeah. But I admire everything that you've been through, too. And you're real, right? So even when we had that conversation on the phone before this, I was like, I felt like I was talking to, like, one of my good friends. And to be able to sit down with people that understand maybe it's a different lifestyle,

but you went through your trials and tribulations, and we can sit here and have a real conversation.'s why you're doing so good and i'm proud of you too so i appreciate you so much that means a lot to me and you're gonna have to come back and visit me because i want you on the podcast anytime you have anything cool going on just come and this is your platform and i'll always give it to you thank you and now that you said that sammy will be watching he's gonna be like give me bunny's dude, I'll shit my pants and Sammy the bull calls. I'll be like, hello. I don't even know what I would say. I'd be so excited. I don't fangirl much over things, but I just feel like you and your family, you guys have really just, you know, you guys are a part of history,

you know? And like, there's a lot of people that are like, you know, famous and stuff like that, but you guys are literally a part of American history. like that's wild yeah it is so why don't you shout out all your social media so that people can find you websites for your business all that jazz okay so um karen gavano is i'm on instagram and the instagram for the body depot is the dot body depot the um website for it is body depot dot clinicinic. And that's my baby. Like I love, I love anything skincare. I love being there. I love kind of like building something from the ground. So yes, that's my baby. We're going to come visit you next time. Next time we actually have some time and we're in New York cause we do come on tour and stuff like that or New Jersey.

We're going to come and spend a day and we'll probably bring the cameras and stuff like that and just get some treatments okay yeah i got you girl i got you i think it'll be awesome yeah and then um i'm working on something big so look out for it hopefully it'll be on tv soon and again thank you so much karen for coming thank you for having me thank you guys so much for listening to another episode of dumb blonde i will see you guys next week bye