Dumb Blonde - TBT: Karen Gravano - Calm in Chaos

Episode Date: November 13, 2025

Throwback ThursdayThe iconic energy continues this week as Bunnie sits down with Karen Gravano — former Mob Wives star, best-selling author, and Co-Founder of The Body Depot Spa. Karen holds nothing back as she opens up about growing up as the daughter of notorious mobster Salvatore “Sammy the Bull” Gravano, her complicated dynamic with costar Drita D’Avanzo, and all the drama that unfolded both on and off camera. She also reflects on how her father’s high-profile past shaped her life, the impact on her family, and how she pushed through it all with relentless hustle and a passion for prison-reform advocacy.Watch Full Episodes & More:YouTubeKaren: IG | The Body DepotSee Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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be doctors and lawyers and shit and I was like I want to be super hot make a lot of fucking money and be a rock stars wife that was my goal as a child and here we are what's up you sexy motherfuckers welcome to another episode of dumb blonde on the pod today we have a woman who was born into a lifestyle that so many people glamorize and still to this day it's now a trending topic on TikTok. Today we get to hear the real pain that this lifestyle brings from a woman who's lived it and survived. Miss Karen Gravano. Hi beautiful. Thank you for having me. Dude, to start off with that. I'm excited to be here. I'm so happy that you're here. Like I was just telling you, I don't watch a lot of reality TV shows, but mob wives, I was religiously watching that shit every week. And the reason why

was because that shit just felt so real, you know? Right. And it was just, it was a time when TV was great. Yes. We were at the height of reality TV. Yeah. And I think what made mob wives so authentic was that we really knew each other. We really all had history together.

We weren't just a cast put in a house, and we didn't like each other because, you know, somebody said something in a situation. We had a lot of history, and it kind of got crazy at times, but it came through where, For me, especially doing the show, I wanted it to be where I could tell my story and maybe somebody can take something away from it. Sometimes I felt like it got blurred with the fighting and the arguing. It got petty at times, but the reality was we all kind of went through different struggles and we were able to put that on TV and people now come up to me and say, you know, thank you

for sharing that. I had a similar situation or I went through this and I could relate because you guys were so real and that's, you know, that's hence all the years later in the fight. writing's done and over with um you know it's it's it's good to hear that it was all of you guys you guys is vulnerability and I think that's what made people be able to relate to you guys especially women you know like we all go through silent battles and battles and family trauma and bullshit and I think a lot of women were able to kind of I don't want to say latch on but maybe like admire you know each one of you for different reasons so it was you guys are fucking

icons, which is why we're doing these podcasts this month because I, you know, mob wives started trending on TikTok. Yes. And as soon as I saw that, I was like, oh, this is, we got to get, you know, Karen, Renee, we got to get everybody on because you guys, I feel like this generation missed out on you guys, you know. Yes, they did. Yeah. People, you know, they see like now it's back on Paramount Plus. They're putting it out. And I'm getting some, Like younger kids now say I watch your show, but it's just, it was a crazy time in TV. And it's unfortunate that we're not back on the air, but it kind of gets into a lot of political stuff with the producers and the network.

I don't know if a lot of people know, but we kind of fell in that whole Harvey Weinstein saga where Harvey was the producer for Mob Wives. So when everything happened with him, his intellectual properties had to go get sold to another production company, and when everything finally pans out, some of the producers one in particular hung on and they didn't want to get they didn't want to sell it so they were kind of getting greedy with the money and you know we were never canceled the network wanted to have us back but it was just the negotiations between the producers and the network just didn't pan out so I had no idea that Harvey Weinstein was involved until we had that phone call and I was

mind-blown and then I it was right there in the credits when I was watching and catching up on some of the mob wife episodes just to get familiar again you would see him and i think like his brother in the credits yeah bob bob bob bob and harv so it is crazy um you know as well i don't know if you know but when they sell shows they don't usually bring the cast with them and um prior to mob wives they actually brought us all on the pitch meetings because i guess they thought we were so authentic and the way we interacted with each other and um harvey would come on the meetings and it was just it was funny and he would always hit on you or anything like that no everyone always says that they're like did you ever i said no we kind of got fucked in our contracts from them in a way but never physically

or anything he didn't fuck me physically he just fucked me financially in a way yeah but that's you know in reality tv you sign you sign your life away yeah which is you know you i get it now oh now that it's resurfacing are you guys getting residuals from that no we don't wow we never um and i don't I don't know, especially back then, like, if people were privy to, like, all the residuals and doing all that, we didn't. It wasn't in our, wasn't offered to us. Yeah. I'll tell you how my boy, because at first I was like, I'm not going to be on a TV show or

reality show. Like, I have too much baggage. So Jennifer Graziano, which is Renee's sister and I, we were actually talking about doing a scripted show. We were just in talks. We've been childhood friends. She was there when I went through all this stuff with my father. We kind of stopped talking for a while, but then we were really.

reconnected and one day she says hey listen this guy's pitching an idea to me about women you know whose husbands went to prison and you know what do you think about it and I said it'll be good she goes I'm thinking to cast and Drita what do you think I said she's definitely good for TV you know she's she's a character so she would be good for that and um as her negotiations got further along she was like oh what about Renee I said Renee is definitely made for TV like Renee's a lunatic make drama out of like a crumb right Yeah, so it's like Renee is good for that. And then she was like, well, I have Renee's friend Carla.

So anyway, Carla was beautiful. Yes. And Carla was, she's just real, right? She came with a lot of like mob history stuff too. And like she set her boundaries. Like this is what I'm not going to talk about. And she always stuck to her guns. And like one thing I do because in the beginning, you know,

her and Drita were friends and at the time of our war. And she was not having it. Like they would try to sit us down and be like, can you explain to Carl and Carl's like, I don't give a fuck, I'm friends with Drita, I don't want to hear it. And I always like that about her because she's loyal. Even if I felt she was loyal to the wrong person or she, you know, and then kind of as the series went on, I guess she's seen for herself and, you know, the tides changed and her

and Rita, you know, we're no longer friends. But she has always stuck to what she believed in. She doesn't, she doesn't want to, she was the hard one, they always said, because she doesn't feed into drama and they'll be like, you're on a reality show. You guys need to talk about it. I feel like somebody had to be the calm to you guys this fucking storm, though, because y'all were fucking wild. Yes, we were.

Plates flying, fists flying, hair flying. Yeah, everything flying. That had to have been so hard for you. And we're going to get into it, you know, all the stuff that happened as a little girl and forward. But just kind of reflecting back, that had to have been so hard for you to have to go face these people after everything that you had already been through. prior to the show even starting when Jennifer the producer had asked me if I wanted to be on it I was like hell no I have too much baggage like I left New York there was real stuff because of that lifestyle that has happened to me and my family and it's like still ongoing like I still till today deal with it so I just didn't think reality TV was a platform for me although I was in negotiations for writing a book and actually a movie at the time whatever I come back and they're filming

the sizzle reel and you know I can't help it but sit down at the table with them and you know the sizzle reel is where history was really made because it was iconic and that's what sold the show and so Jen comes back to me and she's like you got to be on the show and I was like okay so the show comes back they want to buy it and I'm like what's the name they're like mob wives I'm like are you fucking kidding me like I'm not coming back and being like mob this mob that like I stepped away from that in my mind when we sat down and talked about it it was for women who went through struggles and overcame them and they're like Karen you're such a good person because you went through your entire community turned on you you know what I mean and there was so many things there was a hit put on my

brother like he was five minutes away from getting his head blown off then I moved to Arizona with my family and my whole family gets arrested for selling drugs we become a drug cartel in Arizona yeah we're going to touch base on all of that yeah when I'm telling you everything like from credit cards to jewelry to houses to restaurants to cars we had nothing I just had a little baby I had to come home and start over, and I did, and I made it. So they were like, that's the story that we want to tell. And I'm like, you know what? That's what I want to tell, too, because if people can relate to me or I can help someone

because I know the dark places that I've been in and how I've overcame it, this is something important to me. And then next thing, I know we come back and we're, like, fighting each other. But I feel like they kind of set you guys up for that, too, because you and Drita already had, like, beef that was off camera, right? because you used to date Lee? So I dated him for six years. Okay.

Oh, okay. I didn't know it was six years. Yeah, we were together for six years. He moved to Arizona with me. We came back and she was my friend. She was a friend that no boyfriend wanted, like, you're not allowed to bring that girl into the house. It was like that type of situation.

And me, like, nobody could tell me who I could hang out with, right? So I always stuck up for Drita. I always like, fuck with her. We had a weed service at a time where me and my friends ran a weed service. service. It's called aromatherapy, right? Yes. I love that name. We'll talk more about that too. And, you know, we all had money. We came from a background, our parents. We were hustlers. And Drita had nothing. So I'm like, come on, girl, here. Like, let's go hustle. Here's the opportunity for you to make money. And she never wanted to do it. But I was the type, like, all right, I'll go up.

I'll make the sale here, give her some money. Like, I wanted her to be an equal with us, because that's just how I am. Like, I never want someone to be around us and feel like they're, you know, need us to pay this or to pay that. When you say being equal to us, is it because she wasn't Italian? Yeah, and just not even that. It was just like, you know, we were all hustlers. Gotcha. You know, like we had a weed service.

We had, you know, apartments, cars. And she was, you know, the girl that would come around and couldn't go to eat at this restaurant because she didn't have money. So it's like, come on, girl, I'll get you some money. Let's, you know. And it was never, I never wanted anyone to feel like I'm trying to be your boss or be like, be my equal. Come on.

we can get this money let's get it together and when we had the wheat service she just really wasn't she just didn't want to do it so um neither here nor there it was like you know she just i'm the one that actually brought her around and then all of a sudden i leave and i go to arizona and i find out that her and lea together which is like okay i think as a woman like here's where i think everything got confused from mob wives because it wasn't portrayed right in the beginning as a woman think you owe that to your friend to be able to at least say hey girl listen i hooked up with your man she never said that and you guys were still together when she hooked up with them no okay it was after like i had moved on but we me and her was still friends we never had a falling

out so if you and him are together you could say hey like give it's a phone call but that's where she said we weren't friends so we went from being friends that's where i don't get it how do you pick and choose when we're friends and when we're not right when it's convenient for you now we're not friends and it's not that she I'm like the way they were trying to make it like I'm like I need you to explain this to me not just common courtesy as a friend yeah let's have a conversation you never gave that to me and whatever it bothered me so for me and then she kept saying well you guys weren't really together you I live with him you know we were together for seven years so it just started becoming like I was this obsessed ex-girlfriend but really

it was about respect because I always respected you I was brought you to the table with us as an equal. The reason why you're even on mob wives is you weren't friends with Jennifer. I made you guys become friends. No one really even liked Drita in the beginning. She was like my friend and now it's like oh and let me backtrack and I'll probably like people probably won't like me for saying this but before mob wives ever aired we were all together. Me and Drada sat down at tables and been like girl we're going to show that no guy could ever come between a girl. Oh wow. So nobody knows that we pitched mob wives. We went into every network with Harvey Weinstein, with the producers.

We all sat down together. So then when the show aired and it came out, me and Drita had this thing. Like we were friends. And, you know, we kind of fell apart because I went to Arizona. I moved away. You got with Lee, but we're back. And you know what? Fuck him.

Our friendship matters more than all that. And we're going to, you know, rekindle our friendship. But then it became, oh, Drita don't want you at her house. You can't film in her house. You can't. So the producers are telling me things. And I'm more like, what's up? Like, is there an issue?

I don't want you to talk about Lee. I don't want this to be said. Well, you can't tell me what to say or what to do. And even in my book, this is where it all, like, I was writing a book before Mob Wives. I have a real history in that world. Lee is like not even a factor. So when she was like, you can't put him in your book. I'm like, who are you to tell me what I can write in my book about?

So that's why I wrote the little paragraph about it. you know I'm going through that now with my book yeah I have an X coming out of the woodwork saying don't put me in your book and I'm like it's your life I'm like you're you abused me yeah you know like why would I not show people that what I did after you it's not about you it's about what I overcame yeah exactly no that's wild and that's where it all started stemming from and it was a lot of what I mean all the producers will even say there was so much behind the scenes that was happening um before my wife even came back and I think the opening line was I came back and said fuck Sammy the bull fuck John Gotti I'm gangster which I was like why do you say that and it had nothing to do with the girls it had to do with people saying don't put her on the show street people don't bring her back we don't do this and it was like that couldn't happen because the whole show was based off of mob wives and my name was the name that was gonna you know your dad is pretty fucking notorious so for everybody who's listening your dad is

Sammy the Bull Gravano. He was the underboss of the Gambino family, you know, the whole John Gotti, Sammy the Bull saga that has followed me for my whole life, you know, and that's what really sold mob wives. So for people, for everyone to be on that show and then start telling me what I could do, what I can't do, like, it's not, I'm not, you know.

Like no motherfuckers. No motherfuckers. No motherfuckers. I didn't happen to. Yeah. So let's circle back to your childhood because I did some, I did a bunch of research because I wanted

to make sure that I got everything right. And, you know, there's a lot of layers when it comes to the mob and stuff like that. And I just want to say that, and I was telling this to them earlier, I actually have a new found respect for your father and your family because I didn't really, you know, you hear about Sammy the Bull and you hear like, oh, he's a rat, he's this, he's that. But if people ever took the time to really listen to the story, your dad, and we'll get into it, pretty much.

much warned John Gotti and was like, hey, man, stop trying to fucking put this all on me. Like, it's not going to happen. And then he even tried to have their trial separated, right? And Goddy refused it. And so your dad was like, you know what? It's fucking show time. And I'm sorry, but if I was in that situation, not that I, you know, am that type of personality either.

And I don't think your father is. But when you have the world coming against you like that and people are trying to pin you for shit that you've already done your shit, you're right? admit to doing your shit, but people are trying to pin you on more shit. I would have probably done the same thing your dad did. You know, I agree with you because at this point in my life, I can say I understand. And I'm happy that he did that because he did have another route that he considered taking, and that was killing John in prison because John double crossed him. Right. And I think my father's famous line was John's a double crosser. I'm a master double

crosser. I'm a master double crosser. And that's what that life is. Yeah, your dad's pretty fucking gangster dude. Yeah. Like, it is a wild. when I was the shit I was learning about him so um yes when um first of all prior to them getting arrested so let's let's go all the way back let's go back to you just being born into this so you're born you you were raised where in Brooklyn and Staten Island I lived in Brooklyn until I was eight years old then we moved to Staten Island yeah I'm looking at my notes so if you see me looking down I literally have a shit ton of notes for you so I've got to be honest I've never been a huge jam a person because most of them either feel stiff, too hot, or they twist up while I'm sleeping.

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ATMs according to US News and World Report 2023 chime checking account required um so you're raised in Brooklyn and Staten Island right and take me on that journey you know your dad was a hustler he wasn't always a gangster correct no he pretty much started in the mob at a very young age I mean in in so I want to say like Brooklyn and Staten Island is kind of like the breeding ground for the mafia and um my father grew up you know intrigued with that lifestyle my grandma father came over from Sicily and you know they he was on the opposite side of the street my grandfather was a legitimate guy and the men on the other side of the street you know there was always respect and the way my grandfather respected them you know my father was always intrigued and my father said

you know how do you know this one particular guy that my grandfather knew back from Sicily and he said he's a bad guy but he's one of our bad guys you know he's good to us so that always stuck in my father's head because he's like you know what did he mean by that but the mafia took care of their communities. They took care of their own. And that's really what Kozanocia, I mean, I can get deep with you, but Kozanocia is this. Yeah, let's get deep, because I got tons of shit in here. So, yeah. Cozanocia is this thing of ours. And what it is, is the mafia actually protected and police their own communities. Like back in the day, someone couldn't come in a community and hurt a little kid or rape a girl, you're going to get killed. The mafia protected their own. So,

which I feel like they should do to this day. Yeah. Because people who hurt children need to fucking be not on the streets. Yeah, they didn't go to the police. They went to the mafia. And when it came here, they, you know, kind of migrated to New York. And Sicilians, they were immigrants. You know, they were trying to make money. So the mafia started rackets, like where they got into the garment industries,

the construction industry. And it really was about their own communities and benefiting themselves. And when you become part of that lifestyle, you understand. if you betray that lifestyle, death is the, you know, that's the answer. That's what happens if you betray that lifestyle. So that's what Cozinochet is. It's a community of men that came together to be able to provide for their families through crimes or whatever, but you're supposed to always be loyal to that lifestyle.

And if you're not, it's death is the penalty. So my father was intrigued with it from a young age. You know, he was in a young group called the Rampers, which eventually was like a farm team for the mob, and then he graduated. and became a maid member. Yeah, he committed a murder when he was from, it was a hit from a gangster that, you know, and that's how my father made his bones,

his bones in the mob, literally, and was then created to be a made man. And he was made, I think, the year that I was born, which was 1972, or a summit, like, right around there. Yeah, I think I have it in my notes. Yeah. Let me put my bifocals on, hold on. Yeah, keep going, though.

So once you're a made man, it's like, You know, my... Ninety-six. Seventy-six, he got made? Oh, maybe that murder was around the time I was born. It's where it says Castellano inducted Sammy into the mob. Yeah. So, it was right around when I was born.

He loved it, you know? He felt like he was part of a brotherhood. It was a community. They took care of... Everything that he believed in was Kozanostra. Yeah. And he lived it. He, you know, it didn't matter.

If your family becomes second to Kozanocia, that's your first family. And my father was... was a very loyal soldier. He was very respected. He was a very, you know, powerful person within that lifestyle. He had a huge hit team. And at the same time, Gotti was kind of growing in his ranks, but he was more from, and I know it's all New York, but back then it's like worlds apart. My father was from Brooklyn and he was from, you know, Queens. So I guess when they kind of met each other, they both had respect and how the whole Godi had me. administration. So my father was from Brooklyn with this guy of Frankie de Chico, who was another

very powerful person within the mob. And they were very much into construction. So Paul Castellano is a construction guy. And is that what you believe that your dad was into? You didn't know that your dad was in the mob? I didn't know what the mob was. I kind of felt like we were different, but I just didn't know. You know, because so many people around me were the same, like my cousins and you know you're going to interview romona later her family it's like we all grew up in that lifestyle we would go to school with other people and realize that we're different but i never felt like i was an outsider because i had a whole community that was the same as us right and you know they were very close net so um my father was very big into construction like he could have probably

been a huge construction person and like owns you know a big construction if he didn't do the mob stuff but um yeah that's you know his thing was construction he was he made a lot of money so growing up in that you know of course you you as his daughter get the perks when did you finally start thinking to yourself like something's not right here like so i don't even know of saying not right is the thing or like hey i'm or kind of like learning that your dad was in the mob i always was like very Like I was a daddy's girl So I was always intrigued with him And I remember one night I was gonna

I wanted to sleep at my friend's house And my mother was like no you're sleeping home Whatever and I remember my father had come home And he was doing something in the room He was like very you know running around And he had left and that night I had said to my mother Can I sleep out and she was like no I want you home And then the next morning

I see on the paper that the nightclub that my father owned The person was killed in the club Frank Fiala. Yes. And then I remember... Did I say it right? Yeah, so I'm reading it. And I remember hearing prior that my father was having issues with the guy through a dinner

conversation, he was saying something to my uncle. And then I looked at the paper and I'm, he's dead. And I'm like, wait, my father have anything to do with that? And then here comes dad in the kitchen, cooking. Hey, girl, you need anything? Like, you know, it's like, no, he couldn't have. And I was so young, you don't ever look at your parent. Like, they could be a bad person, right?

especially someone that truly takes care of you and loves you and protects you. That's got to be a mind fuck almost in some sort of way because you get to see the loving human that he is and that's dad. And then, you know, in the papers and on the streets, it's like he's this, you know. This, yeah. Forced to be reckoned with. So for a minute I thought about it, but I was so young. I never thought of it again.

And then I had gone to a school. It was like the school on the hill instead. Island called Staten Island Academy and I remember going over my friend's house which she lived like diagonal from Paul Castellano and I was to Paul Castellano's house with my father just in the car a couple of times and the girl said I said I think my father's friend lives over here somewhere and she goes oh not that house a big gangster lives there and I'm like a gangster what's that in my head you know and she's like I don't know my father says that we shouldn't go by that house a gangster lives there.

And I'm like, well, maybe if that guy's a gangster, then my father could be a gangster. We could live in a big house. Like, you know, I'm a child. And this is what I'm thinking. I didn't think of it as a bad, you know, thing. But when Paul Castellano was killed, I knew. That was like the, I knew my father was involved in that.

So let's get into that. So after the whole thing with Frank Fiala, I guess what had happened was Frank disrespected Sammy over a business deal. And that's when, Sammy took him out. And after that, him and Gotti kind of teamed up to take out Paul Castellano, correct? So after that hit, Paul Castellano was going through some stuff. What happened was Gotti's crew was being investigated for drugs.

So it's a whole thing. That's like a code in the mafia. You cannot sell drugs because that now triggers DEA. It's a whole different ball game. knew that so yeah so because like movies glamorized mobsters as being drug dealers pretty much too it's it's a very big no-no in the mob like you're not supposed to be involved in that so john goddy's brother and um someone else and his crew got arrested for heroin trafficking but the problem was is when they got the bugs and the search warrants on goddy's crew one of the bugs picked up angelo rigerio

who was john goddy's right-hand man talking about the mob and he basically broke the down the whole entire Kozanosa. He explained it, who said who the boss was. He explained that there's five families. So the FBI had this on tape. And Paul Castellano was so infuriated that these tapes came out that he wanted them and Gotti kept refusing to turn them over. So by Godi, not turning them over, Paul's either going to kill him or he's going to, you

know, shelf him, which means dismantle his whole crew. He's not going to have any power in the mob. He would be shunned. Right. So John had an incentive to want to kill. Paul Castellano, but he knew he couldn't do it without my father and Frankie DeChico because they were the true powerhouse hit teams in the mob. So my father and Frankie at the time were going through their own separate thing with John

because they felt that he was not trickling down the money. I mean, with Paul. At the time Frankie DeChico and my father were having their own issues with Paul because they felt he wasn't trickling the money down to his own family, him and Chin, which was another boss of the Genovese family were kind of getting rich up top and Paul wanted to be a businessman so they were going through their own things and um angelo rogerio had reached out to my father and said listen we want to take out Paul and my father's like who's we and he's like me and John Gotti and my father's like well why isn't John here talking to me he's sending you so it kind of like

started then but Frankie de Chico was like Sammy listen John has an ego he's out there he wants to be somebody and he's always in the limelight too wasn't that an issue yes yeah so he said let's take out paul because it'll be beneficial for us and let john be the boss he has an ego we don't want to go to war with him we're going to go to war with all the old timers and we're doing an unsanctioned hit in the mafia you have to get it sanctioned which means you have to get the approvals of other families so they just did the hit and um he was like we're going to always have to watch our back. So let's let John do what he does. And we'll be in the background six months from now, if we can't control him, we'll take him out. And six months from the time that they did the Castellano

hit, Frankie DeChico, who was like a brother to my father, he got blown up in a car outside a cafe in Brooklyn. So while all this was going on, this is like, I'm seeing this. This is like now it's really playing out. Like, I get it. My father's in the mob and this isn't just construction or, you know. how are you feeling though that's got to be like such a heavy heavy feeling of like taking on like the father's you know responsibilities i guess because you know as daughters we kind of like right you know it's like we want our dad we want to praise our dads but at the same time it's like was it cool to you that what he was doing or were you kind of like oh my god like you know this is like how did you feel so when i was home when i rested my head on my pillow at night i was nervous I thought about him, you know, possibly getting killed. Like there was, at that particular time, I mean, I hate to say it like this,

but there were bodies dropping all over. Yeah. So that was on my mind. But in the neighborhood that I grew up in, everybody loved it. I was looked at as the mafia princess. Oh, this Sammy's daughter. Oh, don't worry. You don't have to pay a tab.

Oh, you want to get rims on your car. Don't worry. I have to take care. Like, you know, I was. Right. So it was like a catch 22. It was a catch 22. And I always say this.

In Brooklyn and Staten Island, in the 80s and 90s in that whole era, it was like being Sammy the Bull and John Gotti was bigger than being Brad Pitt in Hollywood. Like, their respect. They're notorious. Yes. And it's not just coming from like old women. And that's the thing about the mob, but it's so family-oriented. And it brings it back to Kozanocia, right?

It's this thing of ours and how they protect the families in the communities. Like, old ladies would be like, Sammy, how are you? Oh, I bought you this. so I'm like how could he be such a bad guy and get so much respect right and it's not just fear because I've seen times where people fear him but it was truly genuine love and respect I feel like your dad only acted out when he had to when it was like survival of the fittest right I don't feel like he just went around capping people for no reason you know no like you want to just do a drive-bys and shit no absolutely not that is something that the

mob don't do it's rules and regulations and if you violate those rules and regulations that you die and that's an oath that all those men take and they understand and like my father will even say it till today like so be it you know if that's my faith then that's what I signed up for yeah I mean he's was actually a very good hit man so yeah it's crazy to say but he was actually so he knows that I mean there was a hit that came to Arizona for us wow and they were seconds away and then simultaneously we were being followed by the Phoenix PD and we were under an investigation for being a drug cartel. Yeah, we're going to get to that. We're going to get to that. There's so much. There was a hit put on us and they did come to Arizona. Yeah, there's so much. There's so many layers.

Okay, so tell me about the time that your dad pulled a gun on you for sneaking out. So as kids, like we always would sneak out and like go hang out at the school yard because all the other, you know, everybody had, they could be out to whatever hours. But us, we had. we had to be home and um my father built me a beautiful house there he made my bedroom upstairs i had my own bathroom a sitting area just because he wanted my friends to come over be comfortable but you're not going to be in the school yard but he didn't stop us we were out every night and um one night romona and her sister we went to the school yard we were coming home and as we would climb up the roof and go into my bedroom would enter into the bathroom of my bedroom and then go into the room

And as soon as we all climbed through the bathroom window And I opened the door And my father was standing right there with a gun And I was like, I don't know why But I remember it so clearly I'm like, Dad, hi, and I have my hands up And he's still holding the gun And I'm like, I just went to Miggies

Do you want a sandwich? Migis is like a deli down the block from my house I'm like, do you want a sandwich? And he just, he looked at me And he said, do you see this? And I'm like, mm-hmm. He's like, do you know how close you just came to getting killed? I'm like, mm-hmm, and he just slammed the door in my face.

He was probably so furious because he had to pull. He accidentally pulled a gun on his daughter. You know, could you imagine the trauma that, I mean, your trauma also, but the trauma that your dad has from all the shit he's been through. So in retrospect, now going back, it's like they would drop in bodies left and right, so he doesn't know. And he hears people running up on the roof. Yeah.

He could have accidentally killed me. And so my mother said. Just from sneaking out. Yeah. My mother was like, your father's so upset. That family has killed you. But thank God he didn't. I'm totally glad that you're still here, baby.

Yeah, me too. So moving on from the Castellano hit, I'm just trying to paint a picture here of all the shit that you've had to go through with your family so that people can really wrap their head around it and my listeners can. You know, Gadi started bringing too much attention and your dad started disagreeing with it. The FBI built a case. And then your dad had to go on the lamb for a little bit. Yes. Can we dive into that? Like, how does that make you feel as a daughter

knowing that your dad has to go into hiding because, you know? So, I remember it too. My cousin had a confirmation party. We were all there, and I was having a good time. And my father said, when we go home, Morgan, I have to talk to you guys. And I remember driving home in the car.

I said, go upstairs, get dressed, you know, get changed out of your clothes and come back down. And I came downstairs, and he's like, I'm going to go away. And I'm like, you're going to jail. He's like, no, I'm going to go away. He's like, I want you to know that I'm going to be okay. But I can't have any communication with you guys for a while.

And if you need anything, you know, ask Big Louie, your uncle Eddie. Like, you can pass messages, but I can't talk to you. And, you know, and I'm like, okay. He's like, you may hear things. I might be dead. Just know if you need to hear anything or you want to pass the message to me, you know, go through your uncle. And it was just so weird because there was probably so many things racist.

through my head like but I didn't ask like it's just nobody never told me everyone asked me like you didn't ask questions your mother didn't ask no we were just very calm it was like we were going through the motions and this is what it was normal yeah it was normal chaos so traumatic yeah so he um he left because they got a tip that the gaudy indictment was coming down and my father was going to be pulled in and john felt that if my father left they wouldn't be able to indict them it would screw up the case but I think he also maybe subconsciously knew maybe he talked too much and that those tapes were a lot of him talking about my father I don't know he's not here to speak on it but he just felt that my father being gone would be able to screw up the indictment so my father went on

the lamb for a couple of months or whatever I don't remember exactly how long it was and he just said it was just too much like he couldn't communicate they were following us like literally I was going to school. Who's they? The FBI. So I was going to school and I'd turn and like, there'd be the FBI. It was like to the point where I'd be like, oh, hey, like you guys want coffee or anything? Did you ever become friendly with any of the FBI agents because they were just following you so much? Or cordial, not friendly, but cordial? No. I would see them. No, and actually there was a time where they, they like kidnapped me and brought me to Quantico, which was FBI headquarters when my father did cooperate. And I was like, I hope we

all die in this plane my mother's like just shut up i was a typical teenager but i thought like if it got to the point where i almost thought like if i died my father wouldn't cooperate that's how bad i didn't want him to do it like that's how much i didn't understand and i literally would be like if something just happens to us especially me he won't go through with it and i found out later through um george gabriel actually was an fbi agent who did an interview and i was watching it on TV and he said Sammy almost stopped his whole deal because of Karen and I didn't know that because I was so against it. I really couldn't like fathom that even happening. It's still something that I struggle with today. It took me a long time to be able to get to understand. And for those at

home that are listening, why? Why was it so hard for you to understand and why, you know, I understand why, but you know, maybe people who haven't ever really known about the mafia lifestyle ratting is the ultimate betrayal right right that's you should you should die before you rat and that's what you know even my brother and me would have fights in the house and we'd get in trouble for telling on each other like that's how serious it was um so my father to do that I couldn't understand because that's so not who he was you know he faced murder trials before I didn't you know and he later told me and if you ever sat down when I'm he'll tell you the same thing he struggles with it maybe he should have killed john in jail and i believe that

for a long time would he still be in prison had he not yeah yeah he would have got life and it wasn't even about life i think my father at that point was the betrayal he couldn't he couldn't just take it he was hurt and he felt disrespected uh-huh so let's circle back to that your dad when you how did you find out that your dad was going to because we spoke about this earlier and um earlier on in the podcast was that, you know, Goddy was pretty much, you know, turning on your dad. And your dad kept warning him and was like, hey, man, this is not how it happened, trying to separate the trials and then heard the tapes. Yeah. And then, you know, that's when your dad decided to do what he did. How did you learn about that? Shopify is the commerce platform behind millions of businesses

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dot com slash bunny 50 off and use code bunny 50 off to get 50 off your first box plus free breakfast for one year that's code bunny 50 off at factor meals dot com for 50 off your first box plus free breakfast for a year get delicious ready to eat meals delivered with factor. for only valid for new factor customers with code and qualifying auto-renewing subscription purchase. So, originally, my father was in jail for a year. He was going to fight the case. You know, he was, but it became, the lawyers reached out to my father through my uncle and said, John's controlling the defense. He, the lawyer told him that John doesn't want the lawyer to be able to have a lawyer client meeting without John being present. He wants to know everything that goes on.

the lawyer also felt that if he didn't obey John's rules John would kill him and then the lawyer felt if he double-crossed my father my father would kill him so he was in a kind of like a catch too but he did tell my father and at the time you know John was like well these tapes if you ever listen to the Gotti tapes it's pretty much John saying well I lost control of Sammy the Bull he killed this guy and took over this business he killed this guy and took over that business. But my father was very loyal to Kozanosa, and he didn't kill anyone unless it came

orders from the boss. So he was just trying to pass it off on him. So he didn't have to take full responsibility. He was in a conversation at the Ravenite Social Club in the apartment upstairs with Frankie Lacassio, who passed away. He was the third person that was arrested in that whole goddy thing. And he was ranting and raving about my father. And if you listen to the full tape, Frankie says Sammy's downstairs John he's not like that if you have a problem with him talk to him tell him to take it in but he's right downstairs I'm telling you you're miss you know but John just kept over talking him

and he's like he's got construction he killed DB he killed this one so do you think he was building the case with the feds because he knew that the room was bugged I in my when this first happened I thought maybe and I like to tell myself that because I was like oh he set my father up I don't know I just I just believe that he and so what prior to that happening um the feds came to John Gotti and they told him there's a hit out chin and gas pipe which are other very powerful mobsters put a hit out because of the Castellano hit so the feds told John they tipped him off

but the chin and gas pipe actually came to my father and they said John's too flashy he's bringing attention to this lifestyle we're going to take them out and we want you to be the boss my father shook hands with gas pipe who's a very notorious powerful person how does he get that nickname i don't know i would love to know who came up with that nickname i know they have all these weird nicknames wild but um and he told gas we're on opposite ends in the war now and he went directly to john and said listen there's a hit on you the feds had just told him so he's like how do you know that and he's like they came to me they want me to take you out and then whatever but let's strap up and let's just go to war with them john didn't look at that

as this man is so loyal to me he looked at his jealousy and that my father could possibly have more power so it kind of caused the riff so what i believe in my heart was because of that john was threatened by my father and his ego so he was setting my father up to get killed because if my father it could have been his rival you know what i mean it could have been the person that could have took over he was the only other powerful one that could have taken him down so um i believe that he was setting him up in that conversation and he was trying to get frankie in that apartment that night while the fbi was recording it to agree with him that my father's greedy we should kill him but frankie was inviting and he's saying sammy's not like that i'm telling you he's loyal to you just bring him up here

so once they had that tape that was the the crumble of the Sammy the Bull John Gotti relationship because and the government was very strategic they played the tapes in court and then they locked them in the same cell so they had to go in so of course you know my father's fuming John's like oh I was just blowing off steam and my father's like oh blowing off steam but now I'm facing a life sentence and now you're telling me I can't defend myself because I'm indicted on murders because of you and this is known fact you can go back and do all the research they have thousands and thousands and thousands of hours of surveillance and bugs that were put on my father and not one person was ever indicted nobody ever

got in trouble nor has he ever badmouthed john so that was and i think you know john knew at that point my father like and my father said i did plan on killing him i was going to wait until we got out and i love your dad it's like you know i was just going to take him out so um initially he thought of doing it in jail and I think he like you know I asked him I'm like why I mean why don't you just stay true to who you were like that's why don't you just kill him and he just said I just broke like honestly I just felt betrayed by a brother I just I started thinking of the life like my mother's brother was killed because of that lifestyle everything that has happened and you know just seeing everything he was like I was just done I just threw in the towel and that was my way

out you know so how did you feel when your dad sat you down and you know told you said you talked about being on the plane and like saying that you hope the plane went down and stuff like that but did you ever tell your dad how you felt so originally before they even took me on the plane um it was about a week before the news came out that he was going to flip mind you i'm 19 years old at this time and you don't know all the details i have no idea like i'm just finding this out the things that i believed in my head i'm starting to read in the newspaper but me and my father never had a conversation. Even him being in jail, it was more like, hey, how you doing? Like, you know, we never talked about criminal stuff or anything. His case, we were just there to

visit him. So he calls me up to the MCC for a visit and he comes out and I just, his whole demeanor was just different. My father's like, the world can be crumbling down. He's like, we got this. We're going to stand tall. We're going to be together. And he came out and he just looked me in the eyes and he said, I'm going to do something that goes against everything that I believe in and everything that I've ever taught you to believe in. And when he said that, I just knew. But I was like, there's no way he's going to tell me this right now. He said, I'm going to cooperate with the government. And I said, you're going to rat. And my uncle was there. And my uncle was actually the one that told my father that he should do this, brought the messages from the lawyer. And my father had a lot of money out on the

streets. And he was the one that was going to go collect all the money. And my uncle, I have all cousins there. We were all going to leave together as a family. And I remember saying, you're going to rat and my father I think was like taken back he just looked at me and my uncle goes watch your mouth and my father's like no let her talk and I said this is what you're going to do you're going to leave me and mommy and whatever and he's like you're not going to understand maybe someday you will but you don't understand this life and I'm like no I don't understand this and I never well and I got up and when I got up I started walking to the door and um I came sat back down it was short-lived um the visit we left and we were driving back to statin island and picture like

I'm this mob princess. I go visit my father in jail, whatever. And in my head, I'm like, the only thing I can think of, like, everyone's going to turn on me. Like, what's going to happen? Are we going to get killed? Like, Ramona, who I'm with every single day, until today, you know, her family's in that lifestyle.

Like, who do I trust? And my uncle, I get to the house. It's, you know, maybe a 45-minute drive. And my mother gets out of the car. And my uncle goes, come here, let me tell you something. And I said, well, he goes, you can never say whatever happened in that room. they'll kill you they'll kill your mother they'll kill your brother i'm like i don't even care and he said no you should care even if you don't care about yourself i'm 19 remember this is like yeah he's like care

about your brother care about your mother you can't say that you don't understand this life so of course i don't want anything to happen to anyone you know i go in the house and as soon as we walked in my mother said listen i said i'll never go in the witness protection program i will never go with you guys and she said, I will never go. I will stand here with you. You know, so we're together. It's me, you, and your brother. So as that happened, I know, you can have cried.

But as that happened, I was like, you know, that whole week, I'm like, I'm not going. Like, there's no way. And she's like, you don't have to. We're here. That's it. That's all you had to say. And she told my father, we're not going with you. That's it.

It's done. I was never part of your mob decisions when you did stuff in the street. And I'm not going to be part of this now. I'm going to raise my kids and I'm going to stand on my own. My father's like, you have a ton of money. You know, just whatever. The next, I guess my father called it off. Like, he told the government, like, I don't care.

I'm not doing it. They're like, you can't go back into MCC now. They're going to kill you. He's like, I don't care. So the government now says, we have to get Karen here. I'm a 19-year-old. I didn't know I was this instrumental in this. And if I would have known, I would have, trust me, I would have probably stopped it.

But I didn't know what was happening at the time. so I guess my mother agreed to he said I want to see her one time so she agreed and I went to the you're your dad's heart yeah I went to the woodbridge mall and all of a sudden I go to get out of the car and here come these agents and they're like hi Karen I'm like I thought it was it I thought I was getting kidnapped I was taking that's it I'm going I'm like I don't know how you don't have post-traumatic stress disorder do you have PTSD so no I I really don't my brother deals with some stuff like he does He has some, you know, he has more stuff about what happened in Arizona because he holds a lot of guilt about the whole ecstasy thing

and the whole family getting arrested. And that's really where we lost everything. We're going to get to that too. Yeah. So the agents came. So the agents came. They took us on a plane. No, no, no.

The agents came to the mall because your dad wanted to see you one last time. Oh, and that's when they took you on the place? Yes, they took us. I agreed to get in the car. I was like just one time. So they just take you and leave your ship where it's at? Well, they took us. We pulled down.

up and we got in the car and we went into like a private jet and they took us to Quantico which is like FBI headquarters and it's just kind of like cliche because when we got there they had like cannolis and Italian bread and Mitzel and I'm like what is this Italian feasts? Because my father's like yeah they overdid it they were like trying to make you happy like whatever I guess so they have this whole Italian feast out and he's like what do you want and I said I want to know the truth like why are you doing this and we sat there for hours and he explained it and still I didn't really comprehend it and he's like but you don't have to come and he's like I'm always going to love you and I'm always going to be here and I'm like

I'll always love you too but I'm not going in the witness protection program like we agreed to love each other but I wasn't and um I was like okay so he's like I'm just going to let you know that some things are going to come out and I'm like okay like what he's like you're like like murder and so I was like okay he's like yeah I was involved in murder and I'm like that man when I was a kid and you left the house at the nightclub he's like and Paul Castellano he's like and like 17 other ones I'm like 17 I didn't really I mean I'm not laughing because no people did yes but I was like I didn't think it was going to be that much and um you know there was a murder that was involved my my mother's brother so we as a family have to accept that

and understand and it made me have to really dig deep inside I couldn't be angry at just one murder when there was all these others and like what is this lifestyle right so from the time i left that visit and then i get home right so we leave that visit and the news broke that he was going to cooperate we're driving and it wasn't supposed to break yet and it's literally on 10 10 news and all i'm like every station's like the underboss the most powerful organized crime family cooperated i'm like no change the station i'm like we get to the house and the whole house is surrounded by news media and I'm like we go inside and of course my father's people come over and my uncle who was in that conversation is like there with them and he's playing this whole role like he wasn't

involved and none of us knew you know that that conversation he's acting like never took place and they're like we're going to give you cyanide and you're going to go take this to your father and you're going to tell him to take himself out they don't know that I just came from visiting him so I'm like they're telling you this yeah that's not a is so hurtful and traumatic to say that to somebody's daughter yeah and that's the fact my father had called i just started crying i'm like you have to take yourself out you can't do this you can't and he said that he knew where it was coming from because i'm like he's like who's there i'm like john goddy junior uncle eddie this one that one he said i hung the phone up and i just said what did

i do like here's my family in a house with people that are just she trusted them like a day ago like these were people that would die for her, and now they're telling her to go kill her father. Like, it's just, he said, what did I fucking do? And he said, I hung the phone up. He said, I looked at myself in the mirror. He goes, it was my weakest moment. But I said, Sammy, you have to go all the way now, you know, and that's when he, he did it. You know, the feds came.

And, I mean, the rest is history of the trial, the whole nine, but it was crazy. During all this, how is Karen feeling? Are you angry? Are you sad? I'm so angry. Yeah. And everybody, like, is what I thought. So here's all my, nobody was, they were told, you're not allowed to go to her house.

She's not allowed here. I'm 19, so I was shunned. So what do I want to do? I want to act out and I want to be bad. That's how I am. Because if I'm bad, maybe these people will accept me again and they won't think what my father did. So what did I do, sold drugs, dated bad boys, home invasions.

Like, it was just, it was a bunch of stuff that was. out of my character, but I just acted so, like, yeah. You were traumatized and you were, you had a voice, but you didn't really have a choice, you know? So it was like you just went balls to the wall, like acted out of rebellion, I mean, rightfully so, because you, you know, you didn't ask for all this. No.

And it was the other, you know, even people, like I didn't trust anybody Italian, like to be around them. Were you scared to death to like go anywhere? or like did you ever feel like somebody was going to take you out because of everything that it happened yeah I did especially when the hit came and they you know the government came and told my father there was a hit my brother was 15 or 16 years old you know so but my outlet was well first of all I would hang out I went like a whole other then I started hanging out with gangs and Coney Island it was you know I stayed away from Italians I really positioned myself I was like no more

mob now I'm into drug dealing and stuff You're like, no more mobsters. I'm just going to go to drug lords. Yes, it's kind of how it happened. So, yeah, I mean, I always thought about it, but it's just I couldn't, you know, I lived my life. Took some ecstasy, went to club, just got to have kind of a childhood and, you know, just learned from your mistake. So when did you decide to go back out to Arizona to reunite with your dad? Is that what happened?

Yes. Okay. So my father had, I was here and I was here. I had a weed service and things started getting crazy but that was a whole other thing people were getting robbed shooting this that was like what this is before weed was legal too right yeah yeah how did you have a fucking weed service a all girl now too like you were like before your time yeah and I mean we I can sit here and ramble off every person we delivered to but I'm talking like not even rappers actresses models there was lawyers yeah and you know judges like

It was just crazy. So, but it started escalating, and I remember one time I went to the Source magazine, and my dealer name was Gina. I would go in and act. And this was before my father was in the newspaper, mind you all the time, but I would just go by a whole other name. So I was talking to the guy and... What was your other name that you would go like? Gina.

Gina, okay, gotcha. So I'm talking to this guy who believed my name was Gina. I used to, you know, sell him weed for like months, and he worked at the Source magazine. And he used to give us tickets to events. and so he says hey what are you going to do tonight and I go um I don't know probably nothing he's like well here Karen here's some tickets so I go oh thank you and I caught it but I was like wait did he say you but I was like did he say Karen did he not say Karen whatever so I get up and I go to leave and he's like all right miss Gravano I'll see you later so I stop and I look and he goes

everyone knows who you are he's like your father's in the newspaper every day he's like and I heard a situation happen at a club where you guys were involved and it was like some mess happen he goes listen if some shit goes down you're gonna be the full you know the full guy or the full girl yeah it's gonna be a problem he's like you seem so different like intelligent and stuff why don't you just like do something legitimate and I'm like why don't I because I could right I don't know yeah I'm like why didn't why am I doing this and isn't that crazy how you could be like living a certain lifestyle and one person can say something to you yeah and you're just like it's like an epiphany like a light bulb goes off and you're like you know what the fucker you're

right yeah so um i'm like let me go to arizona i want to go to skin school i'm going to start something totally different and my father had just gotten out of prison and had you talked to your dad in between here did he know yeah he didn't know all this stuff that was happening like that i was doing but um he would get bits and actually while i was with lee we were living in the house he said the FBI came one day and they're like listen your daughter's going to have a big problem they're about to raid her house and he's like for what and he's like bank robbery and he's like at least she graduated from petty larceny my father's a jokester but um it was it was starting to ask like he kind of knew like I was rebelling and doing stuff so when it came out we just had like

a like a coming to like life moment and we had a whole conversation and he described everything like and really got into detail and he's like I just want a different life for you guys you know I just want you to have kids and never have to look over your shoulder and you know we had that whole conversation and I agreed to come to Arizona and I was pregnant when I came when I came back yeah how old were you 26 when I got pregnant I was like around there and Lee is not the father no okay he is not the father he is not the father no uh-uh okay um okay okay Do you want to talk about your baby daddy? Yeah, okay.

I met Karina's father. So that was the whole other thing because my daughter's biracial. So her dad is black Cuban and Puerto Rican. And that was for me, like, after everything that happened, I just wasn't attracted to Italian men anymore. I just didn't know who to trust. Rightfully so. Yeah, it just was like. You've been through some shit, girl.

So when I had met her dad, it was like, you know, he's it. he was you know it was her dad's a great guy we're like the best of friends now still and um yeah when i i didn't know how that was going to be my father like you know in the lifestyle that i grew up in it's usually like you date your family meets the the person and here i am pregnant where did you meet him where'd you meet him up i met him at the china club in new york city yeah he was actually with um jam master j which is from like run dmc and i was doing as o g's no yeah yeah and I was doing my weed thing and I see them all come in and my Jennifer's like they look like they smoke weed so I walk over and I like give them some weed I'm like hey if you want more of

that hit me up he's like like Gina my name my number's on the card so for like the first two weeks I'm only calling you Gina yeah the first two weeks that we kind of um dated he thought I was Gina like so he had no idea who you were no because like back then even was like Sammy the Bull like the name was more notorious in the face the face it wasn't so um I and especially like in Staten Island everyone knew who I was but here I'm going all the way to like Queens and like it's like a world away now but um he so I had gone and it was my father was on the front page of the newspaper and I'm like in the deli and he's like picking it up and he's reading it and stuff and we get in the car he has the newspaper sitting right there he's

And I'm like, I have something to tell you. And he's like, well, I'm like, my name's not Gina. And he's like, who are you then? And then he's like, and he's laughing. I'm like, no, it's really not Gina. And he's like, well, what's your name then? I'm like, Karen. And he's like, so why would you tell me Gina?

I'm like, I pulled the paper over. I'm like, that's my dad. He's like, okay. It was funny. Was he bothered by it at all? No, but I think he was just in shock. Yeah. Like the whole.

But no. He was just like, whatever. He just loved you for you. I love that. Yeah. You deserve that. So, yeah, then Dave and I moved to Arizona. Dave.

Yeah. That's Karina's dad. Okay, awesome. We moved to Arizona and we rekindle my father. We're, you know, back in action. What was that like seeing your dad after not seeing him for so long? It was just like we didn't miss a beat. And my father's such like a businessman.

Like he's like a hustler. So I always admired that about him. And I think that I took that away as well, excuse me. But I feel like he was already in, he had a pool company. He was already doing construction. He was building apartment complexes. So I'm like, okay, I kind of stepped right. In Arizona.

Yeah, he already started all that. So when I had come out, that's what we were all getting into. He had a construction office. And my cousin's boyfriend started dabbling around with ecstasy. And of course Existee was huge back then Yeah It was like the drug of choice

Yeah So you know here I go is I know people in New York Where you can get it from And it kind of just took on It was like They had an investigation Going on prior to the people

Who we dealt with They were watching them But when we kind of stepped in It was a two month investigation Because they realized Who my brother was And who my father was They were able to make a case

Real quick They didn't have anything on my father really but they had on my brother and i feel like your dad is so smart like he never like gets shit pinned on him unless it's other people right getting a pot up that's exactly what happened so when they um they arrested all of us which is kind of crazy and i learned a lot about the legal system that's why i'm so into like prison reform now and stuff but they created this case and they called it a universal case which means they arrested my mother because they said she was the bank roller because there was money kept in her house.

My father, who they said was the boss, my daughter's father, who was the runner, me, I was the go-between where I, and my, you know, between Dave and my brother, and my brother was the muscle out there that really brought it all in. So they had a lot of evidence on my brother, and my father's like, fuck it, I'm going a child. They don't have nothing. Even me, I had nothing. I'm literally charged with illegal use of an electronic communication and a drug

transaction. Wow. I never had a crime before that, so I would have got a slap on the hand. But because my father is Sammy the Bull, we were all facing major time. They did all this forfeiture, which is like if they go in and say it's ill-gotten gains, we now have to prove, which they knew where we got it. Yeah, which they knew where we got it. I mean, my father, when he left New York after the whole mob thing or whatever, he had millions of dollars.

Yeah. You know, we had houses, cars, Russia. restaurants, but they took it all. And they took my father, and they basically had everyone saying that Sammy was the boss. I mean, while he was bringing these kids in, the kid that my brother was dealing with, he came to my father, like, listen, I sold drugs or whatever. I got some money I want to become legit. So my father brought him into the pool company, but they was still hustling and doing whatever. And, you know, you're guilty by association. My father had the name, and it makes careers. Like Janet Napolitano became the governor of Arizona after

that then she went on to become the homeland security the head of homeland security because she took down sammy the ball yes it's crazy so the whole case in arizona pretty much they were like listen samma you're an embarrassment you got six years for 19 murders and now you're out here selling ecstasy with your kids we don't care what your involvement is you take the fall because we have to redeem ourselves and that's pretty much what happened in Arizona um you know a little bit more uncomplicated but it's pretty much the gist of it in a nutshell and my brother went to jail for nine and a half years my daughter's father went to jail for nine and a half years and you know me and my mother stayed home and raised the kids but dad how long did dad go away for

18 years 18 years for that like they just you know yeah through the book at him which anyone would never got that but here we are you know I mean we so what do you do after your brother's in jail your dad's in jail and you are left at home and baby daddy's in jail and you are left at home with your mom to literally pick up the pieces with nothing left like they took they wiped you guys out yeah yeah thank god i went to school to become an esthetic and then i also well at the time i was who's gonna hire me right so my friend is like she was dancing at the strip club christie's cabaret she's like come into the club i'm like girl i just had a kid i'm fat i'm chubby there's no way i can dance or she goes beautiful face thank you she goes no well maybe you can come in and be

be a house mom i'm like she's like just come in we'll figure something out there's money there so i come in and i meet warren who's like amazing he's very big in that industry or whatever he's like come here sweetheart let's talk and i go in the room and i'm like just like i came from new york and the hustle is like men are hustlers out there right and it's more organized crime drugs this i walked into a whole world that was like women are the hustlers women and costumes and i was like what's happening here like i'm all so you're like honey i'm home Yeah, literally. So he takes me in the office and he's like, listen, I know your story.

I know everything. I'm like, yeah, I just want to be low key. He goes, well, I could hire you for the house. Mom. He's like, but I can't fire her right now. It'll be a transition. What do you do? I said, well, I don't know how to do skincare and stuff.

He goes, what about makeup? I'm like, kind of. Yeah. It's like, good. You're the new makeup artist. He goes, you're going to come in here and you're going to, I'll never forget this. He was like, you're going to make these women need you. And I looked at him and he goes,

they're going to like you but when they need you you'll make money i'm like what does he mean by that it took me a long time because i actually did go from the the makeup artist to being the house mom and i learned the whole flow of the club and how from the minute someone walks in that has money to like calling the girls and the girls that don't tip stay longer on stage and i kind of like ran all that because i am it's in my nature and i killed it and it was that's i started working in the strip club And when mob wives came calling, that's where I was working. We were actually going to try to film there and stuff, but everyone was like, no. We don't want cameras here.

So, yeah, it's crazy. And it's just, honestly, the whole East Coast is so different from the West Coast. Oh, for sure. I grew up on the West Coast. And you'd think, because you're coming from the East Coast, we're so fast and slick. And, like, we could talk circles around you guys and nobody. Mm-mm. Yeah, it's, we were hustlers.

I grew up in that industry, so, I mean, I know nothing but women who get money, you know, and it's just a different mindset. Uh-huh. I feel like just West Coast women are just trained to go, you know? Yeah. Like from get, just trained to go. And some of my best friends are still from there. I remember when I first went into the club, the girl's like, she's one of my best ones.

She was like, yeah, girl, don't worry, I got your back. She had just come back from the bunny ranch. And I'm like, this is, she's like, yeah, I caught a case. I had to go out. there make 10 racks real quick and I'm like that's a different lot I never did the bunny ranch that's a different lifestyle those girls out there those girls out there are just savages like I have the most respect for them because that's a whole different lifestyle I couldn't too many rules I'm like a renegade and I think for me the biggest thing that why I wrote my book

that was like that's my baby like mob wise was just but my book was what's the name of your book it was called um mob daughter okay it was a New York Times bestseller yes baby I was very proud of it but for me um i just came to terms with everything in my life like who i am you have to be responsible for your own choices like i think i blamed my father and then i was mad at this and just the way i acted out and it just everybody goes through those emotions but once you can kind of like finally sit down and internalize who you are it's like that's when i was just like okay and i hate people that judge other people yeah so my whole life i've been judged oh the sammy's daughter she can't come don't put her on the show or you know she did this or she said this on the show or she worked

in a strip club or it's like when i when i finally came out on the reality show and i sat back one day and i'm like look at all these people on social media like sitting here just judging other people they must be such really lonely people in their lives and miserable and um it's just every day just made me come back stronger and that's just you know i wound up um getting a deal at after mob wives I got a deal with the network. So I produced a show called Families of the Mafia. We did two seasons. They were going to come back for a third season.

But my daughter is like, if you fucking associate me as a mom kid one more time, because my daughter is a hustler in her own right. She works in finance. Isn't that crazy how it comes around full circle? She's like, I don't want to be known as this mob grandkid. What are you going to be like? My kids, kids, kids are going to be like the mom.

This is my, so my great, great, great grandfather who would be still doing shows. So we decided not to go with the third season But I actually am working on a scripted show with them So I'm excited for you Have you ever gone to therapy? No You have never gone to therapy

After all you've been through girl You are a tough cookie dude Holy shit And to be so well-rounded Right And like do you suffer from anxiety Or anything like that My daughter does

Because my daughter was actually in the house When they arrested her father When later on he got re-arrested Yeah. And I think that, and she was also in the house when they arrested us, but she was a baby. And I don't think she could remember it, but I don't know if it trumps. She's always had anxiety as a kid. And I'm like her Xanax.

Like she calls me, like, I always keep my phone close because when she needs, she was like, what are you doing? I'm here. Okay, bye. She just has to hear my voice. Do you ever feel like all of that's going to catch up to you one day, like mentally and emotionally? Or do you just always feel like you've always had to be the rock?

I feel like I always had to be the rock. like and I'm not just saying this because you're here remember I had told you so my brother I think he's he everything that happened with the whole ecstasy thing I think he holds a lot of guilt so he comes at a prison and he struggles with you know some mental health issues and like just just you know and then one day like me and him would have in a heart to heart and I'm like I'm always the rock for that and then I'm sleeping it's three o'clock in the morning and he sends me the song and I'm like I told you and I'm like I can't see I don't have my glasses I'm put and I hear somebody save me and I'm like what the fuck is this and I'm listening and

in our in New York it's three hour difference and um I'm like calling him I'm calling I actually sent the song to my father my father's like yeah I know jelly roll what do you mean he's like I listen I like the music my husband's gonna love that Sammy the bull knows who he is he's like I love the music so I'm like no but Gerard sent this to me and I'm like and I I know this is I'm not just saying it because I'm having this conversation, but I listen to the song. And it's like, I kind of internalized with it. And I'm like, so when Gerard's, when I finally got a hold of him, I'm like, are you okay? And he's like, no, he's like, I watched a documentary on this guy. You don't know about him. And I'm like, no, I said, but could you have chose a different song? Like, I'm thinking

something is like going on with you. Poor Karen. And he's like, no, whatever. So I watched a documentary. It was great, by the way. But I think sometimes people find people that they could relate to. And maybe for my brother, whatever, he was going through. Like, he just, I mean, he was like, no, I was just sending it to you because I liked it. I wanted you to see the documentary. I'm like, you could have put that in the thing instead of just the song. Yeah, next time I send the fucking text with the song. Yeah, so.

I feel like even me being able to express myself on the show or talk about it, maybe that was my therapy. Yeah. You know, I think a lot of times being able to get it out where it's not like just your people, you could say it and other people can hear it. It's like you go through things. and sometimes you don't yeah writing books

it was a huge therapy for me you know you don't understand it but when someone else is like thank you you know I read your story it was a struggle I was going through a hard time might not be the same hard time I was going through or you know different situations working in the strip club

I met a lot of girls and you know I think for a big thing with me it was like I was so angry but everybody has a story yeah there's one that stands out in my head this girl would work in there and she was beautiful and she would come in and just be like a bitch right i was like i like her like me and her once and i had makeup out one day and she's just touching my stuff and i'm like you know i buy that right you have to tip for it and she's like flings it down i'm like oh my god me and this girl one day i can be rolling around the floor so one day she's in the dressing

room and um she's holding her head and i'm like what happened and she's like you feel this and it was like a big bump in the head anyway to make a long story short she told me that her father had raped her and then hit her in the head with a thing and it was just like and I got it at that moment I'm like that's why you're so angry oh my gosh so everybody has a story and everybody goes through their stuff and sometimes just being able to sit down and talk about it you know yeah absolutely can we talk about your dad's Instagram I just described the only reason why I discovered this is because Ramona told me about it oh yeah and I went she thinks it's hilarious I went and looked at it yesterday he is fucking hilarious

what the hell is dad doing over there he's just having a ball Sammy the bull is on Instagram he's probably jealous I'm here with you now too tell dad come on the show I would love to have him I just found out that he did a podcast with our homie Brendan Chob yeah and we love Brendan so yeah tell him he's always welcome to come on the show yeah I'll tell him I love it yeah I checked out his fucking

Instagram and I was like this is fucking hilarious like what a crazy world we live in and different times we live in that he can have done everything that he did being an underboss and all this shit to being kind of like a comedian on social media like is that not crazy how our parents get older and get weirder my dad is so cool now my dad's so cool and so weird now I'm just like why couldn't you have been this guy back then you know my father has always been a jokester like he'll always make light and I remember when my whole family got arrested and we're in court and we're like going to take our pleas and I was just like blank like I forgot

everything you know I'm like scared I get up there they're like how old do you and I'm like I couldn't even think how old I was so I look back and I father goes don't lie now you're on toes and I'm like in the whole courtroom cracks up and I'm like he just always um but yes he's funny that is hilarious yeah well what can we expect from you what can what's karen got cooking in the kitchen man So I just opened a spa in Hazlitt, New Jersey, Body Depot. We do body contouring facials. And remember, I went to school as an esthetician back in the day. So that has still stuck with me.

Literally, like, there, I do the treatments. I love it. I love being there. And I'm also working in negotiations with Showtime right now for a show. So hopefully. You got that hustling spirit, girl. I love that about you. It's so admirable.

I do want to write a second book. I felt like people have asked me, and I just wasn't at a place where I felt like significant things happened in my life that I was I felt like you know I want to really you're at a place where you felt like significant things haven't happened in your life well prior I wrote one book now I have to have now I have a couple more things than happen so yeah I'm I'm actually um helping someone get out of prison up turnover a life sentence which is very um important to me like prison reform so I've been working a lot on that because it's just you know a lot of stuff has gone on with that and yeah just waking up being me just being calm

like how this is your time to just really just shine and just you went through so much chaos in the beginning of your life that i feel like this is this is your time to shine and just coast like you deserve that dude yeah i thank you i appreciate you so much coming on this podcast and i hope that people getting to hear your story now from your mouth and you know everybody when they do the mob wife aesthetic like it's cute and we all do it you know for views and stuff like that but there's a real lifestyle behind that yeah you know and you definitely embrace it and embody it and the fact that you've never had therapy fucking is mind blowing to me i get asked that and a lot of even like um for me i felt like obviously i'm really attached to that life and when we did mob wives they were like

i said it's there's so much more to the lifestyle and if you're really going to put me in a category with any women even though they don't like me, the Victoria Goddies and the people that have struggled, trials, tribulations, because no matter whatever happened between our, I mean, we'll always be joined whether we like each other or not. So I will always have a mutual respect for them in a way because I understand, like they lost their father too. Yeah. There are really people out there that lost their parents, that lifestyle, whether it's dead or in prison. And it's not easy, you know. So for me, even when I got out there and everyone's like, mom, mob wives, they're making a mockery or they're doing this. And, you know, it was, it was what it was.

And that's what it was definitely not intended for that. And I think, you know, when you really watched it, you understood that it was about women in their stories. Yeah. But for all my other mob wife families out there or mob families out there, like I, it is. And for you to say that, because it is a lifestyle. And there's a lot more behind it than just a mob wife aesthetic or, you know, movies. It's a lot. And it's, it'll be with me forever, but it is who I am.

And it's me, me, who I am. And that's why I will continue to be forever, you know, everything that is, whether it's the bad things or the good things, are, you know, sketched in my life and will make me always want to be able to talk to people or help anyone in a situation because I understand that. I love that. You're a strong-ass bitch. Thank you.

So are you. You don't have to compliment me back. You got to take your flowers because you deserve it. Thank you. Thank you. But I also, when, because I know, because Ramona said, oh, Bunny's doing, you know, homework on us. Yeah. Let me do a little homework on Bunny here. Oh, yeah.

But I admire everything that you've been through, too. And you're real, right? So even when we had that conversation on the phone before this, I was like, I felt like I was talking to, like, one of my good friends. And to be able to sit down with people that understand, maybe it's a different lifestyle, but you went through your trials and tribulations. And we could sit here and have a real conversation. that's why you're doing so good and i'm proud of you too so appreciate you so much that means a lot to and you're going to have to come back and visit me because i want you on the podcast anytime you have anything cool going on just come and this is your platform and i'll always give it to you thank you

and now that you said that sammy'll be watching he's been like give me bunny's number dude i'll shit my pants and sammy the bull calls i'll be like hello i don't even know what i would say i'd be so excited i don't fan girl much over things but i just feel like you and your family you guys have really just you know you guys are a part of history you know and like there's a lot of people that are like you know famous and stuff like that but you guys are literally a part of american history yeah like that's wild yeah it is so why don't you shout out all your social media so that people can find you websites for your business all that jazz okay so um karen graveno is i'm on instagram and the instagram for the body depot is the dot body depo the um website for it

is Body Depot. Clinic. And that's my baby. Like I love, I love anything skincare. I love being there. I love kind of like building something from the ground. So yes, that's my baby. We're going to come visit you next time. Next time we're in New York because we do come on tour and stuff like that or New Jersey. We're going to come and spend a day and we'll probably bring the cameras and stuff like that and just get some treatments. Okay. Yeah, I got you. I got you. I think it'll be awesome. Yeah. And then I'm working on something big. So look out for it. Hopefully to be on TV soon. And again, thank you so much, Karen, for coming.

Thank you for having me. Thank you guys so much for listening to another episode of Dumb Blonde. I will see you guys next week. Bye.