Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 316: Conner Habib

Episode Date: December 8, 2018

Philosopher, author, occultist, linguist, GENIUS Conner Habib joins the DTFH! Check out Conner's Patreon at: [patreon.com/ConnerHabib](https://www.patreon.com/ConnerHabib) This episode is brought to you by [Charlotte's Web CBD Oil](https://www.cwhemp.com/) (use offer code DUNCAN for 10% off your order).

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I just can't do this anymore. Too many interruptions. I can't finish. Seriously, what if the Buddha had gotten robocalled when he was editing his fucking podcast, man? Wait, you're getting a, you're getting a call? Hello? Hey, this is Duncan Trussell with the Duncan Trussell family.

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We have a glorious podcast for you today. Philosopher, author, occultist, linguist, stynarian, academic genius, Connor Habib is here with us today. We're going to jump right into it, but first, some quick business. This episode is brought to you by Charlotte's Web, the world's most trusted hemp extract. CBD is gaining popularity in the health and wellness world. Feels like everyone is talking about it. I want to introduce you to Charlotte's Web.

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Boy would she love a DTFH hoodie. She'd probably really like a DTFH t-shirt and I know for sure she's going to love our new stop drinking crows milk bumper stickers that will be available at the DuncanTrussell store. Much thanks to my Patreon friends. If you go to Patreon and subscribe, you're going to get commercial free episodes of the DTFH along with a rambling, real rambling thing. I do an hour monologue thing once a month there and it's amazing, you know, one of the

big problems with it is because Ted talks, just keep calling me like, please, just we want you to just tell everyone everything that you know. Many of you might not be aware of this, but I have a doctorate in bro science and once a month on Patreon, I will blast you with the real hardcore truth from the inner vibrating globules that make up the furnace of my soul. I rip my heart open and I pour it out into my Patreon page. Also, you're going to get, did I already say commercial free episodes? And you'll get access to our Discord server, which is basically a chat room where you can

go hang out and talk to other folks. His guest has a wonderful podcast called against everyone. It's a brilliant podcast. He's a brilliant person. He blew my mind six times during this conversation. I'm lucky to have him as a friend. You might know him from his pornographic films. You might know him from his amazing writing.

You might know him just because you know him. I don't know. But if you do know him, you're lucky. And if you don't know him, then get ready because you're about to know him and he's awesome. Connor Habib, subscribe to his podcast, sign up for his Patreon, and strap in my sweet loves and welcome to the Dunkin' Trussell Family Hour Podcast, the wondrous Connor Habib. Oops. Hey, real quick.

I just realized this. I don't know. Maybe I'm being ridiculous here, but I think I said rigpa a bunch in this episode. One of the things I'm pretty good at doing is hearing a word and imagining I know what it means when really I don't know what it means at all. So rigpa, it means basically in the most literal translation of it, it means intelligence or brightness. It says here that if you say somebody has a rigpa, it means he is a clever, sharp fellow.

The sharpness of rigpa is a kind of side function that develops from the basic mind. It is a kind of lawyer's mentality that everybody develops. It looks at the problem in every possible way, inside out and outside in. So today's guest, Connor Habib, he is a fountain of rigpa. And everybody, welcome to the DTFH, Connor Habib. Connor, welcome back to the DTFH. How wonderful to see you. It's nice to see you too.

Man, I was interviewing or I'm going to start God. It's okay. I keep coughing so it's perfect. Connor, welcome back to the DTFH. I was doing what I should have done every other time I've had you on the podcast, which is research. So I'm doing actual research. Thank you.

Finally, it happened. And then realizing like, oh man, you are, Duncan, you've got to be the worst interviewer on planet earth. Here is this evolutionary biologist who's been in your midst over and over again, and many other things. I realized like there's so many things that I don't understand that I'm good at acting like I understand. And so I thought, all right, great.

Here we go. Why don't we start with Connor? Let's start at the basic, basic, right? So I want to talk about the understanding, but not understanding thing, but we can get back to that. I think that is the basic, basic maybe. Let's start there. Yeah.

So I want to say something I've been like thinking through a lot lately is that I don't, there are plenty of things I don't know, obviously. And when I talk to very deeply spiritual people who have had more sort of intense, crazy spiritual experiences than me, I will, you know, have that longing. I'll be like, why didn't I see that spiritual being, you know, standing at the foot of my bed beaming rays of light into my head and then I understand Russian the next day. Wow. And someone did tell me that.

But I was like, you know, I don't, that kind of stuff doesn't happen for me often. I certainly have a trouble willing that into being, but what I do have through all the stuff I've done in my life is a coherent worldview. And that is something that even if people have had really high spiritual experiences, they struggle for spiritual experience in a different way. And I think you're always working towards that as well. It's sort of like, okay, maybe you don't know everything. You don't experience everything that the people you talk to experience, but you strive to

form some sort of like, like a way that these pieces fit together and you are good at that. And that's what I try to do as well. Cool. Yeah. Thank you. Okay. Cool. Thanks.

Well, the, here's, here's the question. What is DNA? Well, I mean, that is a really big fucking question, right? It's something that I'm not, let me actually, yeah. So it's so funny that you asked that because one of the reasons why I studied science in grad school. So I went to grad school for creative writing and also organismic and evolutionary biology. And I studied with a woman named Lynn Margolies, who's married to Carl Sagan, who, you know,

discovered that, or proved that our, that nucleated cells are symbiosis of different kinds of bacteria. She came up with this thing called Gaia theory with James Lovelock. Hold on. That cells are, that cells with nuclei are symbiosis of other kinds of bacteria, right? So like, if you have a cell that has organelles in it, so like mitochondria, for example, or chloroplasts implant cells, those are there because two organisms formed a symbiotic merger. So she really went a long way to proving that.

Wow. There are people that had talked about it before, but she put in a lot to popularize and eventually lead to the evidence that showed that that's true. That thing, I didn't know she was associated with that. Oh yeah. That is one of the most hopeful things in life to me. I knew that, I knew about that. I didn't know that came from her, but to me that's always been the kind of like, I don't

know, smiley face inscribed into nature, which is this can work. Yeah. And it happens through initial like conflict or consumption, right? So like one organism is trying to like swallow the other one, you know, again and again until eventually the resistance is so strong that they live in harmony with each other, you know, and you can't actually take them apart from one another anymore. So she did that. She also came up with a whole new theory of evolution that's based on symbiosis saying

like when a new species emerges, it's because there's been a symbiotic merger between one species and another. Usually one species is big and one is really small. So like we don't think of cows as symbiotic beings, but they can't live without all the symbiants in their gut, you know, they just can't live without it. You take those out and the cow dies. So I went to school and I studied with her. One of the reasons why I was really interested in studying science is because people were

having these conversations about science all around me and they were like, well, DNA proves this, DNA proves that. This is like we know this because of our genes and I was like, do you know what DNA is? Do you know how it's extracted? Do you know what it looks like? You know, and everybody who said no, and I realized I didn't know either, but I recognize that I wasn't accepting the answers because I didn't know, but a lot of people were accepting the answers and they didn't know.

So I studied it. A lot of it I don't remember because I didn't do lab work. I did mostly like natural history. I studied the scientists themselves. I studied like the way they talked about things rather than anything else. So you know, I'm not a scientist, but I know more about science than most people. DNA is still to me a little bit of a mystery. Like you can look up the dictionary definition of DNA and you can, you know, everybody knows

the double helix thing or whatever, but how exactly does that work? How do genes work? How do genomes work? I mean, it's just very confusing. And to me, in some ways, it's almost like a minutia conspiracy theory way of thinking about things. It's like, for me, because it was organismic and evolutionary biology, what can I learn from looking at an organism without going into the genes?

Like what can I look at, learn from it by looking at its shape? What can I learn from looking at the way it behaves and interacts with things in the wild and lives its whole life cycle? And that could be a plant as well. Like if you take a plant and you take a snapshot of it, it has one form, right? You can see its leaves and you can see one. If you follow that plant over its entire growth cycle, like it just completely transforms the shape of the leaves and change that they turn on the stem, the flower opens up.

So over the course of something's life, you get something very different than you get if you take a snapshot of it in time, which is how we tend to do science, right? For its environment, so if you take a dandelion and the dandelion is in the shade and you look at its leaves and then you look at the leaves of a dandelion that's been in the sun, they look completely different size-wise. I mean, it's just like, looks like almost like a different organism. So that was the kind of stuff that was interesting to me. So you asked me what DNA is, well, look it up on Wikipedia.

What's more interesting to me is, and we can do that now, right? What's interesting to me is, well, what does DNA mean for us as people? What does it mean in our culture that this is the conversation we have about organisms instead of, well, what can we actually see? What do we not need microscopes for in a lot of cases? You know? Well, yeah, man. That's beautiful.

And I think that that's something that obviously can be, you can extrapolate from that a kind of philosophy of compassion from that, which is sometimes you run into people who maybe haven't been in the sun, so to speak, enough, if the sun's the truth, you know? So you see some people who are behaving in a way that seems brutish, ridiculous, sad, pathetic, maybe even if you wanted to be a judgmental person, you know? All of those are judgments. But you know, you know what I'm talking about? You will run into a being that it seems to be in some kind of dissipated state.

There is a lot of anger, paranoia, fear, worry, a sense of lack and a definite feeling that at any moment they're about to go smashing into some kind of even worse state, right? Now you run into that and you can think what a lot of us do think when they steal your radio. That's an asshole! But if you were to look at it like a dandelion, right? You could maybe say, oh, that's something that hasn't been in the sun long enough. That's something that needs more sun, so to speak, in this case not the literal sun, right?

But some connection with the thing that a lot of the energy that we metaphysically use day to day derives from. The inner sun. Yeah. Yeah. The inner sun. Yeah. I mean, I think that the lesson for me is that, yes, that's the appearance of the person

and that's important. That personality is important. But we're all equal in spirit. So I can still have conflict with your personality and I can still resist your personality because I think it's doing bad things to other people's personalities. But in spirit, you know, there's an equality there for sure. That's it. Well, I mean, you have to.

The thing is, like, if you can't run into this, whoever this be, you can't run into somebody who's like walking down the street swinging at people. Oh, right. They're like a dandelion that has the kind of sun, like it breaks jaws down the street. You have to restrain that person. There has to be there. It's David Nickton, who I studied meditation with, studied under Chogym Trumpe Rinpoche, and he says there's compassion and then there's idiot compassion.

Right. So, but both there's compassion within both of those, which is great. It's just idiot compassion is, is where you like see a mouse in your house or you see a roach in your house. And then you like think, well, I hope it's getting enough food. Right. Right. Yeah.

Right. And then you like wake up and it's like drinking the liquid from your baby's tears, like eye ducts, you know, in the middle of the night. Yeah. Yeah. Which we, you can't have that. No. Yeah.

So that. So how to achieve sympathy. This is a question I have for you and it's not there. I don't know what even how anyone could answer this. I've brought it up before, but maybe you have a take on it. How does radical inclusivity work when you're friends with pyromaniacs? Well, yeah, I mean, there are a lot of different ways to answer that question. So well, but why are you friends with pyromaniacs?

I'm just was trying to come up with an extreme example. Yeah, no, but I, but that's part of my question for the example. Why is the, the, the, as Margolis was talking about this sort of like initial sort of conflict. Right. Yeah. Like why? I don't know. Maybe the pyromaniacs like trick to you and maybe the pyromaniacs want you to be a pyromaniac

and they're like, you know, maybe they're like, there's some sense that burning things down is like the only hope or who I don't know. I mean, it's a ridiculous. Yeah. No, but I get, I get, I get, you know, yeah, I just wanted to make sure. So, you know, I mean, part of what she would say very often was, okay, so if you look at people playing basketball, it looks like they're competing, but if you stand back, you see that they all had to decide to come to play together, right?

You know, and so you have a process of, you know, I described it, um, I wrote an essay about her when she died in 2011 as lean forward, stand back. It's like, I can look at the conflict or I can stand back and look at the symbiotic aspect. I can move forward and I can come back, which is a really great metaphor or, or a phrasing for what she did, which was looking microscopes of bacteria and then stand back and look at the entire, you know, Gaian system of the earth and how the earth regulates itself. You know, so she did that all the time, but that's something that we have to do constantly. That's like a breathing.

So I can't tell you how you would do it with this or that particular person in your life, but there's a gesture and inner gesture of looking very close and then pulling back and looking at the big picture and looking very close and then pulling back and looking at the big picture until that movement, it's almost like if you do that enough, it creates a sound or a tone. And then when you hit that tone, you try to stay in that column of frequency for as long as you can. Cool.

Yeah. That word that I've heard and I've been using lately is rigpa. You ever heard this? No. So it's like a word for, sorry, Tibetans out there, if I'm fucking this one out. It's a word for steadiness of, so, you know, like you were talking about your friend, some being appears in front of them, glowing being teaches them Russian. That's a great moment or like, I don't know, downloads Russian into their mind or activates

the part of their mind that already spoke Russian or whatever. That's a cool moment. That's a peak moment, but they still are going to end up at the grocery store. They're still going to end up in line when they don't want to be in line and there is not going to be a being floating above them. And so that moment of probably when they saw the being where they were like, oh, wow. That's the, maybe what Margolis, when she's talking about this Margolis, when she's talking, when she's talking about the tone, wonder, oh, wow.

That's a good way to be, but that way, where is that when you're in the grocery store? So to speak. I would be maintaining that sense of like, oh, wow, wow, this is, whoa, this is wonderful. It's really love. Yeah. Well, and it's the entire way that I try when I try to teach occult stuff to people. That's how I describe the occult in general is like, look, people want to get all, you know, well, I want like a wand and I want a room with like a pentagram on the floor and

all that kind of stuff. That's all great. I can all assist you. But why don't you just start with the fact that you can't see your own face. That'll fuck you up for a really long time. Like just meditate on that. Okay. Because our experience is fucking bizarre, right?

And so when I, when I tell people like, I say the occult is radical phenomenology. So if you actually just pay attention to your experience, the world becomes something completely different. And when you, and when that happens, if you can let all your politics and views of the world sort of stem out of that, instead of the dumb place of accepting all sorts of, you know, like presumed, presumed things, then something really crazy happens. So I've been trying to say in my own life, like if the bean appears and beams light into my head and I know Russian, though that hasn't happened, I have had some weird things happen

to not say it's weird or intense or even be surprised by it anymore, just to be like, well, this is something, but is this something more than the grocery store when I'm in line? You know, that's also completely weird. I mean, look right now, Duncan, if you and I look around this room with all the stalactites and stalagmites and evil beings in this cave that you record in, don't mention the dead bodies, please. They're all impaled. If you just look around and the people at home can do this too, like look around the

people at home. I don't know why I'm assuming they're just like sitting in front of their fireplace is like cozy enough and listening to us under an Afghan. But no, the people at home, if you look, you'll see in your site that you're not actually perceiving depth with your site. There's a color against the color against the color against the color you're seeing in two dimensions, right? So like go to the grocery store and do that.

I don't fuck you up. Like move into that space where you're like, what actually am I seeing or pick something up? What actually am I feeling here? You know, start doing those experiments with your senses and you'll realize that like the angels pretty extraordinary. The being that teaches you Russian is pretty extraordinary, but so is everything. Yeah.

Yeah. That. Yes. Because the other way is great though. You just end up if you're always chasing an angel that's going to teach you Russian, and you miss a lot of angels in that. Right. Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. That is a, I think maybe why so many people end up being fixated on this thing or that thing because what you just described, they're just those few little steps of popping out of your normal sense of like, I know how things are to the way things actually are, which is that yeah, you don't, you're never going to see your own face. Right. And if you do.

God help you. You're in a horror movie. Well, there is a way you can see your own face. And that is to recognize that you are in everything else. Okay. Yeah. So, you know, Rudolf Steiner, who will probably talk about more on this episode, I've talked about it every single time I've been on the show with you.

Yes. You know, he says something like when you get around 40, 40 to 43, something like that, you begin to be able to see yourself the other, the way others see you. It's this developmental thing. And maybe the age has shifted a little bit because people live a little longer now. But the fact that you can see yourself the way others see you is a way of seeing your own face in a way. It's a way of experiencing your own countenance, you know, you can't actually see your own

face and you can never see your own face, which is a real mind fuck if you think about it. As much as you think you know what your face looks like, that's a two-dimensional ecology of light and a flat surface and a mirror or a pond or wherever the hell you're looking. You will never, ever be able to see it. I mean, it's bonkers. In NDE's though, like you do hear this is one of the things that people with the near death experience to say that they actually do see.

They see their own bodies. An astral projection. Yeah. Yeah. Seeing their own faces that they don't look the way they thought they looked in the mirror. So they see themselves and they're like, whoa, I didn't know I looked like that. So there is supposedly a way to do that. Well let's back up though.

You're not seeing it because you don't have eyes. So when you are having an NDE or you have an astral projection moment, you're not seeing with the same thing that you see with when you see with your eyes. What are you seeing with? I don't know. It's the same thing in a dream when you're like, oh, I saw a cat and I pet the cat in its fur felt this way. No, you didn't fucking see a cat and your fur didn't feel any way.

Your eyes were closed and your body was lying in bed. It's an inner experience or a different kind of experience than the sensory experience. Or there's some, you know, ottoman watcher thing that isn't dependent on biology to see. This is why I brought the DNA thing up because I had this crazy dream and in the dream, it was just weird. Do you ever have those dreams where like you're somebody's lecturing you in a good way or like you're listening to like a radio station? Of course.

It's really cool. So in this dream, I'm getting this wonderful lecture on, it's like some kind of like lecture on impermanent, no, on emptiness. The lecture was on emptiness and then within the lecture, it was saying like, it was pointing out the Francis Crick, Francis Crick, I think it was Crick said that the DNA doesn't make much sense based on how old the planet is. It seems like it would have taken longer for DNA to evolve than the age of the planet. And so in the dream, this was being brought up and in the dream, it or they or whatever

it was was saying, Oh, well, the reason that is, is because DNA is the bridge and that is being used by this emptiness to have form. So the emptiness is the emptiness came first and then the DNA came sort of like as a result of the emptiness, the emptiness flows through the DNA. It was a great lecture. I don't know if it's like scientifically valid. That's why I wanted to ask you about DNA, but that's why you wanted to ask me about DNA to ask if it was the rainbow bridge from Asgard to Midgard.

Yeah. Oh, yeah. Did they, did people say that that's what DNA is, is the bridge? No, I'm just picking it up now. Did we just start first verse in the scripture of our new religion? Yes, my Lord Thor. We did. Yeah.

Well, this, this, uh, so the idea was like, Oh yeah, DNA took like the, this stuff got them. They're the scientists who listen. I'm so sorry. This is just, probably they already pressed pot. They were just like, all right, I'm out of here. Hey, I mean, Watson and Crick did LSD, right? And that was how they came up with some of the speculative.

Yeah. The idea is like they, I've, I've investigated this. Oh, you did. Absolutely. Like anyone who loves LSD is like, Holy shit, maybe I'll figure something out. But, uh, yeah, I looked it up and the idea is that if they did encounter LSD, which they most, one of them certainly must have, it was after they, and also I think they kind of stole the DNA idea from a woman.

Yeah. Yeah. So it's like, which I love that I don't remember her name. Was it Rosamund? Something? Yeah. Anyway, I was telling, you know, this is a real me slapping myself in my dumb face, but this was like, I was telling you, this is boy.

I was like mansplaining to my wife that DNA had been stolen from a woman and at the same thing happened. Like, I can't remember her name. Oh, yeah. Stop talking about it then. But the idea is that this, these eyes that we have and these hands that we have and this body that we have and all of nature and all of the beauty of it all is like pouring into time via this, this, this bridge and the bridge at the basic fundamental level as DNA and

whatever like quantum stuff makes up DNA and through the DNA is this replicating biological form that emerges into the emptiness. And you have to have the emptiness for the, for the form to work. If there was no emptiness, there would just be stuff, a big never ending cube of matter, so to speak. You know, we need the paper to draw on, right? So that, I don't know. That's it.

It was like a, and then I was reading in this wonderful book, Rainbow Painting by Tolku Irgin, Irgin Rinpoche. He was saying that there are something like six moments in every moment that make you what you are. So in every single like millisecond, you're going through these six repetitive cycle that is in the way that your DNA is building you out infinitely as long as you're alive. There's another little like sort of psychological DNA that is like repeating itself and that's creating your identity.

It's just six little moments that you're repeating over a five. I don't remember. I have to go look it up. There's a certain number of moments and you just keep repeating them over and over and over again. And that's producing the pattern of your existence. Have you ever heard this before? A little bit.

I mean, something that's really interesting is like, to bring it back to Lynn, her son with Carl Sagan, Dorian Sagan. So Dorian, he wrote a book with a guy named Eric Schneider called Into the Cool, which is about thermodynamics and says that, you know, like there's this big question of why life, you know, why life doesn't follow the same entropic principles as everything else? Like, you know, the second law of thermodynamics, why doesn't it just run down, you know? Right. And their whole thing is that life and complex organisms are actually gradients.

In other words, like a tornado is a gradient of like two different systems coming together and resolving itself so that human beings and other forms of life are gradients resolving certain forces. Right? And so this is what you remind me of when you talk, it's like that there's these forces coming together and they sort of wind themselves around and that's a DNA, you know, shape that they wind themselves around continuously until the gradient is resolved and then it kind of falls out.

Now Dorian, Dorian's friend of mine, so I'm just able to speak about him sort of freely critically, even though he's a brilliant person, but that at that time, especially he was very atheistic, you know, humanistic. And so he would not have at that time at least have allowed that there was any spiritual principle. For me, those forces are, you know, I mean, right now there are angelic forces and other beings constantly working to make your organs work and to make your being work. They're always doing this, you know?

And I think even as I say that, you might feel something as I say that, I don't know if you do or not. Sure. Maybe it's just like a little excited feeling or whatever, that it's a feeling of recognition as far as I'm concerned of these, you know, people that are these beings that are doing the upkeep of your body. And there are other forces as well that are purely, you know, we will call them purely physical, but then there are spiritual beings behind those forces too.

So yes, I think that they wind themselves, which is why you see that, you know, the double helix as a spiritual, you know, symbol in so many different cultures and in the past and all that as well. There's a great book about that called The Cosmic Serpent by Jeremy Narvey, an anthropologist, which he ultimately again comes to materialistic conclusions, which I disagree with. But the journey through that book is good. Oh, right. Well, it's just, I think, you know, in the same way in the beginning when I asked you

about DNA, you're like, well, let's look at the form and the DNA is cool, but let's look at the form for now. Sometimes I think people like your friend Dorian, maybe they're kind of like, well, maybe the angels, but let's look at the this, I'm interested in this form right now. And then maybe they do draw a conclusion from the form that negates the angels, which is a, I think a mistake, but I get it. It's like, I want to work with the stuff that I can like measure and weigh and quantify. And that's kind of where some people, their mind goes there.

Like I, there's a bike shop down the street, wonderful bike shop on the LA River called Spoke. And there's a guy who is some kind of genius who works on bikes there named Dane. This guy is some kind of genius, right? But the way his mind works is very mechanical. He's like, he's, he's a bike technician and like, he can look at a bike in a form and be like, Oh, this and this way. It's like really cool.

It's like, he's like a, if there were, like, I don't know, he just reminds me of some kind of entered someone who should, if I was a spaceship captain, I would probably kidnap him. But anyway, what I mean is I get Dorian Sagan's POV because it's like, okay, this is my mind is looking at things that I can see and measure and quantify in your mind and my mind. We hear angels are behind the DNA or in the DNA or the way I heard Ram Dass say it, which I really like is like within the heart, there is a doorway. There's a doorway between soul land, as he calls it, or the place of the soul.

And this place that we're in right now and standing in the doorway is a name Crowley Baba or the Buddha or Jesus or whoever you is your particular angel or the father or mother of angels or that from which angels emerges from a personified love intelligence that is the formation is the, is when you, God, I'm saying a personified love intelligence of following it by the dumbest thing ever. You know, the Play-Doh stars, the fun factory, right. That's it. And that Play-Doh's big, the thing that went through which like all of this is being like

pushed, so to speak, or forming that pattern. That is the guru, the angelic figure, whatever, the personification of love. And then that comes out. And then as that's coming out, it starts running into all of your stuff, the karma, you know, it starts running into your mind moments and your DNA. And now it starts taking on this other beautiful form, which is you. And it is beautiful. Even though you might, you know, have this thing or that thing going down with you or

this like tendency to do something that's not so savory or great, or which is for most people a tendency not to do something bad, but to look at themselves and be like, I suck. I'm horrible. I'm the worst. But still within that is perfection. Yeah. I mean, I think so to bring it to the beginning of your statement, you know, you can fly and find whatever it is you decide to go looking for, right?

So if you want to look at things that you can quote unquote measure, and I do that because people can't see me doing the air quotes around that because I think that measurement is its own weird thing, but you, that has problems. But if you want to go look at it that way, you can. But in some ways I find, I mean, we need to measure for building a house. That's like, if you're going to build a house, we need, we need to measure. Like there is a place where I don't know that all cultures measure the same though, or that they use, they have the same relationship to quantity and measurement, right?

And they can still build shelters. So what I agree with you, right? That measurement has its place, but we configure that gesture of measurement in our lives and cultures in different ways. So I don't want to assume that the Western form of measurement is the one that I need to go for at this moment, depends on what you're building, right? And I'm going to do that if I decided to build a house, which I will never do. But like, when I think about the measurement thing, I think, okay, in some ways though,

looking at DNA or doing some of these other, you know, scientific, they're kind of like, if you ever see someone try to, you know, write an experimental poem, right? When they've never written a poem that rhymes, you know, and you're like, do you really like, why is there a word, you know, like split up into 10 syllables all the way across the page? That's interesting. But like, are you doing that out of compulsion, or are you doing that out of freedom? It seems like you're doing that because you can't write the other kind of poem.

So this isn't really an option. This is just you being lazy, right? Or whatever, maybe lazy isn't the right word. But I would say like, where can you start now to think about what's composing the forces in your body? So this philosopher, psychoanalyst that I love, Jacques Lacan, he would say something like, I'm going to get this wrong, but he would say something like, you know more about the words gallbladder than you do about your own gallbladder, right?

So you know more about the concept of it. So let's start there, right? And so this is what I want people to do is you know that you can investigate your experience right now. So investigate it right now, your concepts, your feeling of having a body, you know, it's like what's happening right now, Duncan, and people listening, where are your hands? Did you choose to put them there? How did they get there?

You know, how are they resting? Where are they? What's happening in your organs? Well, you don't see any organs. How the fuck do you know you have organs? Maybe you're an exception and there are none inside of you, whatever. Okay, you have a feeling that you do? Okay, that feeling is part of your anatomy.

So let's talk about the anatomy as consciousness states that you locate and other consciousness states that you think of as places and locations and all that kind of stuff. That's your anatomy. So you can do that. All right. And what I want is for the scientists that study DNA and all that, I want them to do that too. So that's a version of science that used to exist that we don't do anymore, which is as

I do the science, I notice what I'm experiencing and I include that in the phenomena. If I see a rose, it brings a feeling to me. I don't just say that feeling isn't part of the phenomena. I say that feeling is part of the phenomena. That's how science used to work. The scientific method is not a universal thing that has existed for all eternity. It's changed over time. The concept of objectivity has changed over time.

What counts as objective and subjective has changed over time. So now include the phenomena because you matter. You matter. You're looking at it. These two things are co-creating together. You and the rose are bringing something to light. Beautiful. How wonderful.

Because you're right. Because what happens is it's like, look, I don't give a fuck how you feel when you look at the rose. Oh, does it make you feel good? We can't measure. I mean, look, maybe there's some. This is very funny. It's like, God bless them all because if they're hard work, we're going to have at

least prescribable psilocybin pretty soon. But when you go to some psychedelic conferences and you see these scientists who are having to put mystical states into a scientific descriptors, they have to quantify metaphysical mystical states because there seems to be some correlation between achieving a state of mystical unification with the divine and the cessation of certain addictive patterns. So they have to say like, they have to come up with a scientific way of quantifying. It's very interesting to watch. It's like watching.

It's like what it's like trying to turn Shakespeare into emoticons. You know, it's like a really difficult thing to take this one thing that is maybe the source of language and then try to put it into language. So I love that so much. It makes me feel it's almost, it's empowering. Of course. It makes you feel empowered right away like, oh, shit, I'm human. Wait, this does mean something.

And also humble at the same time. Sorry. But go ahead. Yeah. Yeah. I like it a lot. It's really great. Cause like, yeah, I can't see my organs, but I can definitely feel where there's tension.

I can feel where there's energetic blocks. You're doing it right now. I'm sorry, man. I actually, I have to go pee. So I'll be right back. That's so good. It's so easy to end up getting just like pure like you can, you don't even realize you're turning into Joseph fucking Mengele and you like, you know what I mean?

Like you can end up getting just losing your whole soul in the mechanistic or I guess not losing it. Like, man, if we're sitting in a room and there's like classical music playing and it's the most beautiful thing you ever heard and, but some people in the room are very charismatic and have a real sense of authority or being like, there's no music playing, there's no music playing. No, there isn't music playing at all. There's no music here.

It's really a depressing thing because you either have to be like, oh yeah, I guess that was just something I wanted to be there, that music. Or you have to be like, no, there's fucking music playing. And if you're not careful, sometimes that'll get you on a mental asylum. Well, especially then sometimes you can say that for so long that you do hear music when there is none there. Right. And I think also like, I just want to say, I mean, you know this, because I know you've

read that book, Cutting Through Spiritual Materialism, right? But there's a way in which most people's spiritual pursuits turn into materialism very easily because we're so used to it. Because we live in a time where we really praise empiricism, which is the senses. But there are things that are beyond the senses. And in fact, the senses are themselves an idea, you know. So when we, let's see. So like think of someone who does alternative medicine, okay, acupuncturist or whatever.

And we think, oh my gosh, I'm going to the alternative medicine practitioner because I think, you know, allopathic, you know, regular medicine, it kills people. It just puts a lot of chemicals in your body. Okay, great. And go ahead and do that if you need to do that. But then they go and the alternative medicine practitioner is like, take this vitamin. And then they're like, I'm going to put this pin in your, in your liver because you're having liver problems.

I'm going to put the pin right above your liver. It's the same fucking thing. It's just different content, but the gesture is exactly the same. What is, would be totally different is a completely different conception of what you are and what health means. And then you would be doing something different, which is why, you know, for example, for me, something like psychoanalysis is something that's far more radical than something like naturopathic medicine, because here's something where, you know, Freud and these other analysts,

you know, they decide, okay, so what is happening is there's something going on in the person's sort of mind, mental conception, and that's arising as other problems. And those are also imagined. So I'm going to talk, we're going to talk and something's going to happen here. We're going to speak and listen and something's going to happen. That's different. Does that make sense? Yeah.

So I'm, in other words, I'm not just giving a different kind of pill. I'm decided to change the entire concept of what's happening in this health and healing relationship here. All right. Yeah. There's never when I, like a doctor will be like, where does it hurt? Hurt physically. You go to the doctor and you want to say like, oh, well, my arm is hurting.

My shoulder seems to be hurting. But yeah, the other stuff, the doctor won't then be like, right, but I mean, how are you feeling? Like, where's your, where are you right now? What's going on with you right now? Where are you at in the second year? Can you describe it? What is going on?

It's just like, oh, my arm and they're, all right, we're going to give you Vicodin. And then we're going to send you do a physical therapist and we'll get you some MRIs and see what the structural issue is in your arm. And then we'll work it out, but he's not going to say, well, wait, why does your armor? Well, and I would respond like this because it just happened to me. I would say, well, here's what happened. You see my wife is having a baby and there appears to be some kind of like hardcore, really weird sense of wanting to be able to provide for my family.

It's kind of freaking me out. Actually. I'm a little worried. I want to make sure that. This is like manifesting in a lot of weird ways. So what happened is we paid eight dollars for some wood for the fireplace. And then I thought, I can't pay eight dollars for wood, man. I came from North Carolina.

And then what I did is I drove around until I found a stump and I bought an ax from Home Depot and I went outside and I split the ax with or the stump with an ax and I hurt my arm because I don't really want to acknowledge that I'm 44 right now. I can't fucking hit. I'm going to be an old day. I love this. Yeah. You know what I'm saying?

Totally. Yes, because the principle of causation is like would be so much different if you did that, right? But let's say you didn't remember the ax or maybe you didn't split any wood and you're like, ah, you go into, you know, see a psychoanalyst and you say, you know, well, how are you? Well, I'm going through all this stuff and also my shoulder hurts. And the psychoanalyst says, OK, so it sounds like your shoulder in a lot of the burden and you'd be like, oh, all right, then it locates conceptually and linguistically where

the pain is coming from, you know, cool. It's so funny. I was talking to my friend who's from Ireland, my friend Helen, and I was talking about, I kept having this weird like pain in my butt cheek, right? And it was not anything, any other like disease or whatever. And she's a very psychoanalytically minded person. And it wasn't like I'd gone to like a doctor to like get it checked out, nothing. And I was like, you know, I'm just so bummed out about this.

And she just started laughing. And she's like, you're what? And I was like, oh, so that you start noticing that there are these like linguistic mind constructs that begin to locate themselves in different places in you. And you can't just undo it by noticing that, you know, your doctor says, oh, your shoulder in the burner, whatever. I mean, sometimes it can work that way. But it doesn't, you know, but it but it points out that there's a thought

that's going through you again and again and again and again and again. And then it just locates itself somewhere, you know, because that's how anatomy works. It's constructs of your thinking. So cool, man. Yeah, this is brilliant. Thanks. Whoa. The yeah, it's it's a it's a I think it's like a an articulation of like the idea

of karma. It's like, this is a way to understand how karma works. Because, you know, for me, because I'm I haven't. I haven't like mastered the ability to do what Chokin, Trump or Rinpoche recommends, or I guess that unmasked or the ability would be the better way to put it, which is just relax, just relax. That you're going to be fine. Like the thing, there's a thing inside of you.

And now that you're telling me this, it's like, oh, I love this because it's like, just what I've been reading is like, there's a deep relaxation that can happen. There's a organ inside of you, so to speak. That if it's too tight, if it's tightened up, right, too much, if you're too stressed out, if it's too burdened, if it's too heavy, then all your other organs are going to start fucking up because it's like it's stress. It's all the but if you just let go and this is going to be fine. And sit and feel that part that's all cramped up.

I just like try to just loosen and let it go just a little bit to sink in. Chokin, Trump or Rinpoche actually, in one of his lectures, he goes, it's like when you come home after a hard day's work and you go, but I guess all the time. Yeah. Now you don't have to do it after a hard day's work. You do it during the hard day's work and before the hard day's work. And that's, and I think you can come up with thoughts and ideas that will help

you with that too. Right. So I mean, that's what placebo is. That's what sham surgeries are. All that kind of stuff where someone's giving you a thought cure. So, right. You know, one of my favorite placebo stories is I'm saying it's my favorite but I don't remember all the details of it.

But like they were testing out these some company in Italy was testing out these two, this blue pill that was supposed to I think put people to sleep. And then they realized that like all the men that took it were staying up and all the women that took it were falling asleep. It was a total placebo. There was no effect, but there was no actual quote unquote drug effect. But they realized that the people, the men were staying up and this is sexist, of course, but because it was the same color as the football jersey of the region.

And they were just like getting amped up every time they looked at it. Right. So I wish I could, I'll find this. It was on Chris Crescer's podcast once. But when you think about it that way and you're like, oh, so it's all like we're taking cues, like it's finding the right cue for yourself, you know, and that is the cure. So even if I do take a pill that's, you know, supposedly has some kind of real medical effect on me,

it's still having that placebo effect in addition to the real medical effect. Right. So what do I find the right cue? Why, for instance, can I take two ambient and not fall asleep? But I know people can take half of one and go sleep forever, but I can take a Xanax and like Conk right the fuck out, right? Xanax is better than ambient. Right.

Spell the same backwards and forwards, you know? Not even love is spell the same backwards and forwards. But I feel like I take it and, you know, it's like, why that? Why do some cues work for me and not others? And then, you know, then I think, you know, it's like, why that? Why do some cues work for me and not others? And then, you know, then I start thinking about it with, with porn, right?

Like, why did I have lesbian fans? Right. That was something that was really confusing for me for a while. I think I actually talked about that a little bit on a show that I did with you long ago, but then I figured it out after that show, which is that like people are getting turned on by cues. It's not because they see what they want to do on the screen. Something is evoking. It's evocative for them of a certain kind of cue.

So our physiological responses are not directly related, you know, only to the thing that's presented to us. It's what's happening there. What's the thought construct that I'm swallowing when I swallow the pill or watch the porn or whatever? Yeah. Interesting. Right. And that goes back to the rose also and looking at the rose and understanding that you're part of the phenomena. Oh, right.

Yeah, because you're right. But yeah, you've literally swallowed the rose. Yes. This is the, that it can be a kind of claustrophobic moment, in fact, where you realize, and we sort of brushed over it, but when you realize that the entirety of your experience is happening within your cranium, you know, within your, well, you're the totality of your being, but it's being processed, the processor seems to be the gray matter in your head to some degree, but it's all connected. There's neurons in the heart.

Regardless, you have this realization of like, whatever is happening is being projected within the theater of my mind. And that means the rose is in me. Connor is in me. The whole thing is in me. It's all in me. It's within me. And then that can be a moment of like, wow, cool, followed by, holy shit, I'm trapped in here. How do I get out?

Yeah. Okay. So let's mind fuck you for a second, though. Okay. So yes, it's all in, well, I'll say it's all in me. You know, that's the, you know, joke. It's all in your head. You just don't know how big your head is.

That's a Lon Myler DeKett book, the subtitle of one of his books. But, but here's something that's not in me. Me. That's the real fucking problem. Okay. So here's how I'll break that down. And this is like the real, okay. So you watch like, I'm going to use friends because everybody, a lot of people know it.

So you watch friends and you think about the fact that friends doesn't exist in the friends universe. Okay. So like, they don't ever get to watch friends because that's them, right? Okay. So, right. Ross and, Ross and Rachel, that never happened in that world, you know, and so this huge cultural phenomena did not happen in that world, which means that all the conditions of that

fantasy world are different. That's what Duncan Trussell is for you. You never get to watch Duncan Trussell. You never get to experience Duncan Trussell, right? Right. You only get to have a version. You're the only person for whom Duncan Trussell does not exist. I mean, not because you're so famous that everybody knows you, but because you never get to exist

for yourself in the way that you do for the totality of experience. Right. So that's when you have the moment of being able to see your own face. And that's a spiritual moment. And it really is an intense experience. I've had it happen many times. When you become the world looking in on you, instead of like you're this set, you become the center point that you really are.

Like you realize that you're this nexus sitting there, this weird intensity of forces coming together. But those forces coming together are now where your sensing lies. And it's looking in. Does that make sense? Yeah, man. Yeah. That's what, I mean, this is why, this is why I love sitting.

Like I love doing sitting practice. I just love it so much because it's the, it's sort of this exploration of this event that you're talking about. And that because I'm still in the basic phases of it right now, which is just, just real, like first let's work on the mind continuum part. So it's like you sit thoughts emerge, whatever they may be, you go thinking back to with a breath. So this is the, this type of meditation is the space maybe between your lip and your

nose, but it's really just watching your breath. And it's not changing your breath either. Like trying to breathe in some spiritual way. It's just like watching the breath and then thinking, so this is the beginning part. Just learn the mental continuum first. And then of course, within that you have these moments and those moments are freedom and a little flicker, flickering bits of freedom where you aren't that nexus point for a second. You aren't that interrelational, steep, fixated thing that you're describing the chakra of

identity or whatever. For a quick second, it might happen that the birds tweet and you for a quick second, you might forget to do the thing where like, Oh, those aren't, those aren't me and the birds and your thoughts are emerging in the exact same way. The sound of the birds are your thoughts and then the trees are your thoughts. Maybe. And then in that moment, Ducat, is that his name? Oh, La Milo Duquette.

Duquette. In that moment, you get a little glimpse of like, Wow, my mind's bigger than I thought it was. And then the moment you're like that, you go thinking and go back to the breath, you know, because that's just another thought. Yeah, totally. More birds. Well, that's the reason why a lot of traditions say like, get rid of the ego.

So I'm totally against getting rid of the ego, but I am into transforming what the ego is. But one of the things is once you obliterate that sense of self, you can sense all the otherness because you are it, right? So it's like, I'm not me anymore, but I am everything else, right? Like, there's a whole thing about like, I think I'm not explaining this clearly, but it's like, when I was, I was in Vietnam last year, and I was sitting in a room and there was a gecko on the wall.

And I just like looked at that gecko and it tilted its head and looked at me. And then suddenly I could see it. I could see the gecko looking at me. I could feel the room, the walls of the room present around me, the floor, the air, the light. I could see all those things composing my presence. Like they were composing me. They were making me, you know?

And that's happened actually many times in my life, but it was very clear in that moment exactly that everything had been woven together, you know, and then that lasted for a while actually. It wasn't a second. It was a while. And then I came back into my, my sort of, I guess, normal, maybe the word we would use being. Does that make sense to you?

Yes. So myself, it didn't go away. It just became everything. It became everything looking in on this sort of negative space where I am, you know? Yeah. Yeah. This is actually, my teacher is telling me that spaciousness. I hope I don't fuck this one up.

Spaciousness is a precursor for compassion to happen. Totally. So you need, you gotta have, like before real compassion kicks in, you need that thing you just described. Because if you're all compacted down to this, just compacted and compressed, it's like, how can we be compassionate? The, but the moment you hit that like vastness, it's primarily with a self, you know, I mean, it's like the compassion for others is, I mean, not to sound cliche, but I think it

may be the only hope we have on this planet. But that being said, you, good luck for it. And especially if you're not being compassionate to yourself, especially if that compressed super focused state has within it, this whirlwind, a cyclone of self hate, where you're like whirling around in there and looking at everything you do and everything you say in this stern, strict, brutalizing way, which a lot of people do. And they won't say that that's what they're doing, but they do. And that, and part of that I think is because they're not acknowledging the organs of the

senses that you're describing here, because somehow they've been convinced by loudmouth that there isn't another thing that happens when you look at a rose. That thing you taught me just now is very, it has within it so much compassion. It's like, man, you don't have to just be a machine, you know, there's like a lot of other stuff going on in there. And some of it's angels. And that's, that's so sweet. It's loving, right?

Yeah. The, this is Rudolf Steiner. The sun is a negative space and is through that virtue by which it shines. Okay. It's a negative space. So how is that? I don't understand that. When you, when you listen, when you really listen to someone, when I sit here and I

really listen to you, I emptied myself out to receive what you've said. I don't even hear your words. You see, it's something is enacted in me by this communion. The sun is that all the time. So it's always shining. Right. The sun is listening. The sun is listening, you know.

And then what we do, and this is crazy to think about. So when you think, when you think there's a movement happening, okay, and the thoughts are the husks of that movement, it's like, imagine a snake moving and every movement, the snake is shedding its skin behind itself as it goes. That's what thinking is like. But the thoughts are the husk, the thoughts are the skin, the shed skin, they're products of a movement. Okay.

Yeah. So we need to work into, I mean, I, I, I resist the idea of no thought. What I want is to get into thinking, the active movement of thinking itself, instead of just the thoughts, the content, the thing we say, they say this, we say this, we say this, we say this. What's the active movement there? Can we get into that? And that is revelatory because that's totally sense free.

There's no senses related to it. It's just a movement. It's a, it's a being. It's a lie. Yes. When I look at a rose or a person or whatever, I've already missed the chance to not destroy something. Not just because I don't have a con, not just because I have a concept, but because I can

only see things because they die into me. I can only see something because it dies into me because I'm, as soon as it enters, I've killed it by turning it into perception. I've killed it into turning it into a conception and it's dying. It's always dying into me. That's how I see. Dead. Dead.

Is it dying or dead? Well, it dies into me and then it's dead, right? And the, the, another occultist, Masimo Scaligarro, problematic person, but still very amazing teacher and writer. The light by which we see is not the true light, but the dying of the light. So. Yes. When we see something, when I see, when light hits my eyes, that's not a thing.

That's the process of something dying that illuminates as it dies, like a firefly florescing in its last moment of life. That's what I see. We're killing machines, everything we apprehend and look at we kill so we can turn it into substance to apprehend it. But if we can get into a place where we're actually in the movement itself, instead of just receiving these husks, then something really is happening. This is making me think of a few different things.

One, sorry, everybody for being that confusing because it's intense concepts that I'm still working through. But you're not being confused more like it's just, I at least my like it's my, it's it's wonderful. The sun, I, this is a very sad sweet article I read about how long it takes for a photon to come from the core of the sun to outside the sun. It's a very, very long time. Millions of years, I believe hundreds of thousands.

I can't remember. I remember it's an incredibly, it's, it takes a long time for one of these sweeties to blast out of the sun. And then this, this, this thing that is just purely like giving, pouring out all these photons. Bounce into something and then enter your optic nerve and they are lit. Just like what you're saying, they're killed. They get converted into energy that produces the vision of what you've seen.

So your eyes are eating photons. They're devouring these things that spent so long to come bursting out of the core of the sun. And in that little brief moment where they made the transit from the sun to the earth and landed in your eyes and that they got to be alive. And then you have devoured photons. We are all, well, as like everybody like Oppenheimer quotes the Bhagavad Gita and it gets used over and over and over again.

And I finally looked at him quoting it and realized like, man, he's like quoting it wrong. He's not mentioning what follows the quote that he said and he's not mentioning what preceded it and he's using, he's saying that what he says is Krishna, he uses the term Vishnu. Okay, whatever. I don't mean to be like a Bhagavad Gita comic book, but Krishna Vishnu wanted to impress Arjuna, the great warrior. And so he said, behold, I have become death.

You've heard it a million times often. The destroyer of worlds. But number one, Arjuna asked, when, when he tested the, when the atomic bomb, yeah, when he detonated the atomic bomb, but he says, Oh, you know, it's like Arjuna, Krishna wanted to impress Arjuna. And then the, behold, I've become death, the destroyer of worlds. But then it's like, there's so many other things he says within there too. And it's really what's happening.

I think as a scientist has done something or helped to be part of something that is really disastrous and is trying to like work, make it work in some romantic, metaphysical way. You know, maybe Oppenheimer was trying to impress people by splitting the fucking atom. But when Krishna and this beautiful story turns, shows himself as the universal form, it wasn't like the, the source of all love was like, I'm going to impress my friend. Check it out, man. Anyway, that's neither here nor there.

But what I'm saying is our eyes are the destroyer of worlds in the sense that we're, and I never had heard that before. So it's very beautiful. That's just really cool. Sorry to ramble about it. But the other thing it made me think of was the difference between fire and ash, like a fire goes raging through something or another. And then the ash in this case would be the thoughts, the thoughts for the ash that is

left from the fire of awareness, I guess you could say, right? The thoughts are like, by the time you're thinking the thoughts, we've moved down the line. And in fact, by the time the thoughts emerge, for sure, at least in time, right, whatever the phenomena is that you're thinking about, it's already passed. Right. That that's gone. The thoughts are almost like an echo bouncing off of a thing that's long gone, which was

that moment. And so that moment, which is what's happening right now, that's where it's all happening. This is where it is. This is the difference between being the fire and being the ash. And when Christ was crucified and went to the center of the earth, most as a whole other story, and at each level of the earth encountered a trial, and you all can look at this. It's from Christian occultism, sure. But I'm not going to go into all the details of it, but encountered a final being that

he could not overcome near the center of the earth, whose name I will not say, and you can feel free to look him up. And I think we've talked about this before. But when Christ got there and they were fighting, the way Christ overcame this being was by giving up. And he said, I, here's all my power I give up, right? And then by doing that, conquered this being. So the end of killing is not by trying to kill more, I'm going to look into an even more

powerful microscope. I'm going to look, you know, really into this when I'm, no, it's giving up the power to kill and to win and to move into that space that is totally helpless, which is the active moving river of your thinking. Wow. That is wild. That is so wild. Whoa.

That's really, really cool. That's the way Jesus, of course, that would be the way that you won. I'm going to find this thing. This kind of makes me, here, this is something that I read. And I guess this is why I had this thing here. The antidote, this is from this book, Rainbow Painting, the antidote for exhaustion is from the very beginning to relax from deep within, to totally let be training in the awakened state of mind is not something you must keep up in a deliberate way, rather.

Recognizing unfabricated natural naturalness, right? Rather recognizing unfabricated naturalness is totally effortless. The best relaxation brings the best meditation. If you're relaxed from deep within, how can that be tiring? What is difficult is to be continually distracted, freely remaining in the totally unfabricated, undistracted non meditation. It's impossible for tiredness to occur. Let me repeat again.

What is exhausting is ordinary, uninterrupted delusion. The mind thinking of this and that, the continuous spinning of the vicious wheel of anger, desire and dullness. We engage in such useless activity, nonstop, both day and night. Once you have been introduced to the nature of mind, you could possibly tire yourself, tire yourself in your effort to be diligent. But if we are effortless, how can we be exhausted? That reminds me of what you're saying.

Jesus goes to the core of the problem in this case, the core of the problem, all these whatever battles were happening, which would have been interesting to see. But then finally reaching the core of the problem. What is the response? Yeah, to relax. Yeah, I love that. I love that. I love that passage.

And the way I would say it is your inner self is never suffering ever. It's never suffering. Your inner self is never suffering. That should be a great comfort to all of us. You know, it's beyond suffering. I don't mean beyond it like it's achieved to stay beyond it. Like suffering is so much smaller than your inner self. It cannot suffer.

You know, wow, that's right. That's the thing, the spaciousness, that spaciousness must be a precursor to compassion because the idea is like once you are able to unfold to the point where your suffering is no longer the goes from being a conflaguration. To being a campfire and from being a campfire to being a an ember and then from being an ember to just being like a star far away. It's still there, but so much more is going on. And that that's that is a I think the usefulness of these kinds of ways of

thinking and also the usefulness of some kind of practice, some kind of some sitting practice, some thing where you are exploring your identity more than just driving around and thinking, what am I, even though it's driving around thinking, what am I, is a perfectly. I mean, it's really better than most people driving around and not thinking anything, right? Like it's better than driving around and thinking, who the fuck do you think you are, what do you think you are, or saying, I am this, I am that, you know,

like getting really entrenched in identity, you know? I mean, that's also its own problem. It's really interesting, because every time I see you, you're still Duncan, like over the years, because I've now known you for quite a long time, a long time, 11 years now, 10 years, something like that, maybe a little longer, maybe a little, maybe it's only like six years. But, but there's a, there's an idea of, you know, I come, I see you, you're still you, you're still funny, you still got that voice, you know, you got the

beard and the hat and all that. But you are, and this is definitely got to be because of practice. Like you feel different, like, you know, it's like, you're you, but you feel different and I'm different too. So maybe you feel different because of that as well. But that is because of practice. That's not because of information, you know, that's a difference in what you desire, you know, yeah.

Thanks, man. I'm so happy that you, that it's nice. I don't, again, to get to spiritual materials and also because my teacher is like, was a student of Joakim Trump for a long time and he's very good at teaching me not to get too caught up in it, because it's so easy to get caught up in it, but thank you. It is nice to hear. And it's, yeah, and it is, you know, that is the, at some point you do go

from thinking about it to doing it. You know, you, and that's, and not whatever that amount of time is. It's okay. Like when I'm with people and I'm going out to sit on this bench out here, I meditate, I, I say, you want to go out here and no one ever says yes. Really wants to meditate. It's so, you know what I mean? It's like, and like, that's how I was for the longest time.

And like, I don't, I, I, it's, this sounds callous, but I really don't care if people don't want to come meditate with me and I, I totally get it. It's boring from that at first. It sucks. It's like, there's a period of leading, like for me, there was a, I don't know, years, years of hardcore resistance to just sitting still. So I get it, man. But yeah, there is a point where you realize like, Oh, wow.

I still fucking have it, dude. Like I didn't meditate this morning, you know, like, and I, yeah. And I get like, I get into this mode where I'll do it for a long period of time. And I'll be like, that's it. I'm on it. I got this. And then like, you know, a friend will come and stay for two nights and then I'll be off it for like a month, you know?

Yep. Because why? Because it depends completely on free will, completely on free will. So that's, you know, I mean, that's really intense, you know, it's like really the decision to do that. And maybe once you get into the meditative act, it's not free will anymore. Maybe you could just do that in a pattern and wrote way, like lots of people do, but the decision to do it, you know, and really develop and work

on development, we all have that call, you know, and I wish for people to be able to obey it, the call to become what is needed in our moment, you know, that's the call. The inner development is not just some lofty bullshit thing of like going to moon juice and getting delicious, activated dulce almonds. Yeah. Um, and that was not an advertisement from inches. They really actually have them sitting here and they're really good.

But you, but the, the, the call is not just to do that. It's, it's not just about personal development. It's personal development in a way that is in accordance to what is needed. Oh my God, I just thought it's perfect. I was, it's so ridiculous. But remember, I get you to read poems sometimes on this podcast. Remember when I got you to read that ode to pan? Yeah.

I've got another one for you to read. Great. But before we read, and then, but maybe we'll do that. Yeah. Let's just do that now. Because it's like, I think what someone gave me this poem and since then I've been going back to it and looking at it and looking at it and looking at it and realizing like, Oh, I think some, somehow within this poem is an answer or a

direction for, for, for folks in, in, it's an expansive answer, but I have to go grab something to give you to read it. I'll go get the poem. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, I'm enjoying it. Okay. Okay.

Here it is. Okay. Kindness. I'm going to say the name wrong. Sorry. Kindness by Naomi, she hub night. Let's see. And I've never read this before.

Before you know what kindness really is, you must lose things, feel the future dissolve in a moment like salt in a weakened broth, what you held in your hand, what you counted and carefully saved. All this must go so you know how desolate the landscape can be between the regions of kindness, how you ride and ride thinking the bus will never stop. The passengers eating maize and chicken will stare out the window forever. Before you learn the tender gravity of kindness, you must travel where the Indian in a white poncho lies dead by the side of the road.

You must see how this could be you, how he too was someone who journeyed through the night with plans and the simple breath that kept him alive. Before you know kindness as the deepest thing inside. You must know sorrow as the other deepest thing. You must wake up with sorrow. You must speak to it till your voice catches the thread of all sorrows. And you see the size of the cloth. Then it is only kindness that makes sense anymore.

Only kindness that ties your shoes and sends you out into the day to mail letters and purchase bread. Only kindness that raises its head from the crowd of the world to say it is ah, you have been looking for and then goes with you everywhere, like a shadow or a friend. That's great. Yeah, that's really something. Yeah.

I mean, that is the state of the world for sure. You know, and when, you know, all our spiritual leaders, all the really deep spiritual leaders, the ones that can do the crazy shit that we hear about, they were all black magicians in past lives. Okay. They all were because you have to go through that experience. You have to go through that experience to understand in the next lifetime how to be open and good and kind, right?

Wow. And so wait, I have to stop you there only because one of the people in the lineage of Buddhism I'm studying. Yes. Uh, actually wasn't a, uh, a, a sorcerer in a past life, but in his, in, in the, in the, in his story, he started off using sorcery to kill people and, um, he met this teacher, Marpa, the, uh, scroll translator who like tormented him for like 20 years or 10 years by making him build.

Yes. One rock at a time, right? Run stone at a time carrying the, the rock up the hill. Yes. Yes. And that was to help him burn the karma off for the, for that. That's interesting that you brought it up. That's how it's cool.

That's cool. You know, um, I've talked about this woman before on my show. There was a woman in Germany named, I think I can get the name right. Ulla von Bernus. Okay. Gives me a shiver to say her name. Ulla von Bernus was raised by Christian esotericist, but decided to become a black magician.

She, this is recent, you know, not, not super long ago. She was hired by people to kill people with black magic. Um, someone lived next to her and became a cannibal just by sort of like radiation of her presence. Yeah. She was known as one of the wickedest people in the world. And she was a very powerful, uh, magician. When she was older, a friend of hers died.

It's interesting, I think, of her having a friend, right? In the first place, but a friend of hers died and she was lying in bed at night. And Christ appeared to her in a shower of wheat. I don't know what that means, a shower of wheat, but he appeared to her in a shower of wheat and he said, in the end, I will conquer all. And from that day on, she dedicated her life to white magic and Christian esotericism, right? Till she died.

So the realization can wake up in us because we see pain and suffering in the world. Or our evil can be a necessity for us. So we can be something new in the next life because we had to go through it, you know, and we've all done horrible things in past lives. We've all been murderers. We've all done really, truly terrible things to people. Well, you know, the wheat shower thing kind of makes sense, uh, only because people use a scythe to like, yes, yes.

Like, is the, you know, representation of the harvest and also that, which is used to harvest is this thing traditionally carried around by the Grim. Right. At the end of our time, no matter what stands Christ, however you want to take that being, right? But who do we want to be and how do we want to live until we get there? That's our question, you know, until we get there. And then also what's beyond that is another question, depending on who we

want to be in and how we live. So do we want, and I will wrap this seismic wave in, in here. Okay. Do we want a seismic wave running through the interior of the earth, hitting as different earthquakes through the world because earthquakes happen in part because of our own passions and intensities in the world, uh, infecting, stimulating and agitating the interior of the earth, or do we want to practice the attitudes?

Do we want to have mercy and kindness and love with one another so that the earth itself is receiving the attitude that we take. When we do that, the earth changes. And if you don't want to have a spiritual worldview, it's fine. Just imagine an earthquake happening somewhere where everybody loves each other. Wow. Connor, thank you so much. What a joy chatting with you.

Thanks, man. Against everyone. You also have an amazing Patreon going on. Can you just tell people where they can reach you? Yeah. So it's just patreon.com forward slash Connor and Bebe. Um, I think, you know, my podcast against everyone with Connor and Bebe is been, is up to episode 50 as of the time this comes out at least.

And, um, the patron is the way that I fund it. It's basically a full time job and I want it to actually be my full time job. And so this thing that I have to do on top of everything else that I do. And so the patron really helps me get out of this like fucking crazy ass, you know, soul killing way of living, you know, by giving me a regular paycheck related to my podcast. So I really, I really appreciate everybody that supports me on there. And then I also have Twitter and it's just at Connor and Bebe.

All the links to get to master Habib will be at dunketrustle.com. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Duncan, thank you so much for listening, everybody. That was the great Connor Habib. Don't forget to follow him on Patreon and subscribe to his podcast. Everything you need to get to Connor will be at dunketrustle.com gang. I don't mean to get so heavy on you during the holiday seasons, but you

don't need to drink crow's milk to celebrate Christmas. It's a sour sauce suckled from love. And there's so many crow's milk alternative products out there that I would invite you to look into. Much thanks to Charlotte's Web for sponsoring this episode of the DTFH. Charlotte's Web, it truly is my favorite hemp extract. Africa Duncan will give you 10% off of any of their wonderful products. Thank you all so much for listening.

Don't forget to subscribe to us. And finally, here's a little message for my friends in France. Je vous aime tous et votre courage m'inspire s'il y a quelque chose que je peux faire pour aider autre que de regarder des vidéos YouTube, des manifestations. Faites-le-moi savoir. Until next time. Hare Krishna.

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