Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 336: East Forest

Episode Date: May 12, 2019

**East Forest**, awakened, enlightened, electronic/ambient/spiritual music producer, and absolute sweetie joins the DTFH! This episode is brought to you by [Squarespace](https://www.squarespace.com/duncan) (use offer code: DUNCAN to save 10% on your first site).

Ghost Towns, Dirty Angel, out now. You can get Dirty Angel anywhere you get your music. Ghost Towns, Dirty Angel, out now. New album and tour date coming this summer. Greetings to you, my sweet sandwich chompin' lovers. It's me, Dee Truss, and you are listening to the Duncan Trussel Family Hour podcast being recorded as secret location

that I cannot name yet. First of all, I gotta start off with a deep sonic boom level cosmic celestial rainbow blast of congratulatory goo to the people of Denver who managed to decriminalize mushrooms. If you're living in Denver now, you can walk around with fungus in your pocket without worrying that folks with guns

are gonna drag you into the back of a car and take you to a jail cell where your teeth might get knocked out by a bank robber and that, friends, is a beautiful step forward. Not just because it makes Denver that much cooler and Denver was already super cool. It is home to one of the great comedy clubs on the planet, maybe in the galaxy, maybe even in the universe,

not sure about the multiverse. The Denver comedy works, and now it is a place that has a more sensible drug policy. We're not there yet. Mushrooms have not been legalized. LSD has not been legalized, and as Emmanuel Safarios, the founder of Dance Save, taught me many moons ago, and I think the first podcast with him,

which is that prohibition is actually the deregulation of these substances, and that, friends, is where the trouble starts because just like our milk is regulated, our water is regulated, just like there's places that make sure that the medicines that we are taking are safe, the reason there's a dude at the pharmacy who's acting like he has plutonium in his hand

when he's pouring your penicillin into the medicine bottle is because of regulations to make sure that we are taking substances that are what they are supposed to be. And when you make something illegal, regulation goes out the fucking window. And in fact, what happens is a massive underground opens up and people end up getting substances

that are either too strong, not what they're supposed to be, or sometimes poison. And so that sucks. We don't want people to go to funeral homes because they wanted to see what was down there and the depths of their psyche are out there in the higher realms. Now, I was certain that after this happened,

there would be some obnoxious fucking blog that came out with someone saying that Denver had made some kind of wretched mistake. And I expected, because of my own bias, which is not fair, my apologies to those of you who are on the right, I'm not, but I have a bias against you sometimes, which probably isn't fair.

And I expected this shit to come from some kind of ultra right-wing, fascist monstrosity that I invented in my head, some kind of goose-stepping white power bastard, some kind of anti-gay marriage, anti-abortion, loony tunes piece of shit, who would see that the war on drugs was hopefully drawing to a close

and this would tickle their butthole in the wrong way and cause it to clench out a shit think piece. So you can imagine my horror, my astonishment when this fucking think piece that I predicted and many things that I predicted have come true, including the transformation of the Washington Monument into a beautiful golden penis. It happened two weeks ago, look it up.

When my prediction came true and I found that Michael Pollan, Michael Pollan who I thought was an ally of the psychedelic movement who wrote this book, How to Change Your Mind, What the New Science of Psychedelics Teaches us about consciousness, dying, addiction, depression and transcendence. He used the word transcendence.

When Michael Pollan wrote this fucking think piece for the New York Times, I'm just gonna read it to you. Have a trash can nearby. You need something to puke in when you hear this. You're gonna need something. Get some salts, get someone nearby with smelling salts in case you fucking pass out. When you realize this Michael Pollan,

this brilliant man who wrote a book that helped to like ease some of the insane superstitions surrounding psychedelics actually had the gall to write a think piece saying that maybe we shouldn't have decriminalized fucking mushrooms at Denver, I'm gonna read it to you. I'm setting kittens on fire while I do this. Michael Pollan, opinion.

Michael Pollan, not so fast on psychedelic mushrooms. Can you imagine somebody saying that to you like on a nice summer day when you're sitting in a meadow and you pull out a bag of mushrooms? Not so fast, man. Scybin has a lot of potential as a medicine, but we don't know enough yet about it to legalize it. First of all, they didn't fucking legalize it, Paul,

and they decriminalized it. All right, here we go. Oh God, I'm gonna read it in like, I guess, the way he must feel. Only a few days ago, millions of Americans probably never heard of Scybin, the active agent in psychedelic mushrooms. Thanks to Denver, it's about to get its moment

in the political sun on Tuesday, the city. First of all, first of all, first of all, come on, Michael Pollan, you fucking elitist. Millions of Americans probably had never heard of Silicite. Shut the fuck up. What is that? Where is that? I want some backup on that,

and I'll apologize if this is the case, that millions of people have never heard of magic mushrooms. Millions of people have never heard of that. Come on, it's in fucking pop comedy and songs and bongs and you can't fucking go to any beach, walk into any beach store and there's some dumb ass shirt with a fucking mushroom on it.

Or aliens saying like, take me to your dealer holding a mushroom, get out of town. Millions of Americans probably never heard of Silicite. What are you talking about? How dumb do you think Americans are? On Tuesday, the city's voters surprised everyone by narrowly approving a ballot initiative that effectively decriminalizes psilocybin,

making its possession use a personal cultivation, a low priority crime. It's not a crime, it's a make-believe crime. I said that, not Pollan. The move is largely symbolic. Only 11 psilocybin cases have been prosecuted in Denver in the last three years and state and federal police may still make arrests.

Okay, now, this guy, Pollan, goes from saying that millions of Americans don't know what psychedelic mushrooms are to saying only 11 psilocybin cases have been prosecuted in Denver. Think about that, only 11. Only 11 people's lives have been destroyed potentially because they had possession of

or were selling or growing a fungus. That, according to the title of your book, teaches us about consciousness, dying, addiction, depression and transcendence. So fuck, man, only 11 people are potentially buying bars right now because they wanted to experience transcendence.

For the first time since psychedelics were broadly banned under the 1970 Control Substance Act, we're about to have a national debate about the place of psilocybin in our society. Debate is always a good thing, but I worry we're not quite ready for this one. Oh, really, Michael Pollan, thanks, but we don't need you to be the babysitter of our minds.

No one should ever be arrested or go to jail for the possession of cultivation of any kind of mushroom. It would be disingenuous for me to say, otherwise, since I have possessed, used and grown psilocybin myself, like many others, I was inspired to do so by the recent renaissance of research

into psychedelics, including psilocybin. Scientists at places such as Johns Hopkins, New York University, first of all, let's address this paragraph. No one should ever be arrested or go to jail for the possession or cultivation of any kind of mushroom. It would be disingenuous for me to say otherwise, since I have possessed, used and grown psilocybin myself,

and your admission of that could put you in jail. It's called a conspiracy, and there is, there are people who go to jail just for saying they've done it, depending on where you live, Pollan, hopefully it's California. Ugh. No one should ever be arrested or go to jail,

and that means that you support the legalization of mushrooms. You can't write an article that says, not so fast on psychedelic mushrooms, and then say no one should ever be arrested or go to jail for the possession or cultivation of any kind of mushroom. What's your fucking point, man?

Let's keep reading. Scientists at places such as Johns Hopkins, New York University, UCLA, Harbor Medical Center, and Imperial College in London have conducted small but rigorous studies that suggest a single psilocybin trip guided by trained professionals as the potential to relieve existential distress and cancer patients, break addictions to cigarettes,

alcohol, and cocaine, and bring relief to people struggling with depression. Psychiatry's current drugs for treating these disorders are limited in their effectiveness, often addictive, address only symptoms, and come with some serious side effects to the prospect of psychedelic medicine as raising hopes of a badly needed revolution

in mental health care. This might explain why the FDA granted breakthrough therapy status last year to psilocybin. Thank God, bless you, FDA, which promises to speed its consideration as a treatment for depression, but the research also shows that psilocybin may have value for the rest of us.

Studies have demonstrated that properly administered psilocybin journey can have enduring positive effects on the well-being and relative openness of healthy, quote, healthy normals, as researchers put it. Healthy normals, God, Jesus Christ. This is all very exciting, especially coming at a time when rates of depression, suicide, and addiction are rising, but the history of psychedelics has been marked

by periods of both irrational exuberance and equally irrational stigmatization. So a few cautionary notes are in order. As much as the supporters of legal psilocybin hope to follow the political playbook that has rapidly changed the status of cannabis in recent years, they need to bear in mind that psilocybin is a very different drug

and is not for everyone. In some ways, it's not for everyone. It isn't. No one said it was. That's the thing, man. No one said it was, but we are adults and we can make our own decisions in life. For example, I know that certain things are not for me.

I don't need you to tell me that, and certainly I don't need the fucking government to tell me that. You know what I know is not for me? I'm not gonna get a neck tattoo. It's not for me. I don't want one. I'm not gonna get one.

I don't judge the people who have them. They're fucking cool. You committed to writing, getting ink into the skin of your neck, but definitely neck tattoos are not for everyone. Skiing is not for everyone. Skateboarding is not for everyone. Parachuting is not for everyone.

Mountain climbing is not for everyone. Eating pork is not for everyone. Certain waterslides, like the one in the fucking brochures I see on the airplane for Atlantis. Atlantis, that horrific-looking neck-breaking monstrous fucking waterslide that kids are shooting down. Theoretically, risking breaking their arms and legs and neck. That's not for everyone.

Swimming with sharks is not for everyone. Wearing sunscreen is not for everyone because some people wanna get fucking sunburnt. Jogging is not for everyone. Exercise is not for everyone. Sugar is not for everyone. So many things are not for everyone. No shit.

But it doesn't mean that the fucking state should arrest people for possession of fucking sunscreen. I know that's probably false equivalency, but it felt good to be that passionate for a second. Ugh. There are risks, both practical and psychological, and these can be serious. Someone on a high dose of psilocybin is asked

to have a badly impaired judgment and unsupervised could do something reckless. No shit. Really? You felt like you had to fucking write that Michael Pollan, brilliant Michael Pollan. You felt like you had to write that someone on a high dose of psilocybin

is asked to have a badly impaired judgment. Ha, ha, what? What do you think? People think it's water? It's not a water fountain. It's a conduit through which we can communicate with aliens. Without proper attention to setting and preparation, people can have absolutely terrifying experiences,

sometimes with lasting effects. A recent survey of people who reported having a bad trip found that nearly 8% of them had sought psychiatric help afterwards. You know who else has to go to the fucking psychologist? People who've been in jail. There's a reason psychedelic research has screened volunteers carefully excluding people

at risk of serious mental illness like schizophrenia. In rare instances, a psychedelic trip can set off a psychotic break. Very rare. The researchers also look at drug interactions and often disqualify volunteers who are taking certain psychiatric medications. I look forward to the day when psychedelic medicines

like psilocybin having proved their safety and efficacy and FDA approved trials will take their legal place in society, not only mental health care, but in the lives of people dealing with garden variety, happiness, or interest in spiritual exploration and personal growth. My worry is that ballot initiatives

may not be the smartest way to get there. We still have a lot to learn about the immense power and potential risk of these molecules, not to mention the consequences of unrestricted use. It will be a shame if the public is pushed, pushed. The public is pushed to make premature decisions about psychedelics before the researchers have completed their work.

There is the risk of inciting the sort of political backlash in the late 1960s setback. Okay, this is where I start getting rage goose bumps. There is the risk of inciting the sort of political backlash in the late 1960s setback research into psychedelics for decades. Think of what we might know now and the suffering that might have been alleviated

had that research been allowed to continue. I'm gonna read the rest of this so he can make his point and then I'm gonna read you some. When psychedelics like psilocybin and LSD burst upon the scene in the 1950s and 1960s, they arrived without an instruction manual. Half a century later, we're still struggling to learn how to, okay.

So let me step back here. He is saying that the political backlash of the 60s that resulted in the war on drugs that resulted in so many lives being absolutely destroyed by the government for doing nothing wrong is because of the drugs and not because fucking Richard Nixon wanted to arrest people. He's completely, completely wrong.

His assumption here, which is absolutely, maddeningly insane is that the state, the government has your best interest at heart that the people making these drug laws like Tipper Gore and Biden and all the people who are making it so that you can't test drugs at raves, the people who are making it so that you have mandatory minimum prison sentences

and go to jail for a long time for psychedelics, give a fucking shit about you, that they're really worried about you. That's the assumption that he's making here, that there are people and the government are like, oh my God, we've got to keep these fucking people safe from mushrooms because this isn't the case at all. These drugs were not criminalized

because of the exuberant response people had to finally being allowed to open a bio organic manuscript written by nature teaching us how to connect with each other in the universe. These people were going to fucking jail because Nixon wanted to figure out a way to arrest people in the black power movement and fucking hippies.

You can look that up, Michael Pollan. And then fear mongering started and the fear mongering created wave after wave after wave of insane loss that did not protect people but put people in jail. Put people in jail for LSD. There was a fellow, thank God, who got his sentence removed by Obama

who was in jail for multiple life sentences for selling sheets of LSD and because he was having them sent to his father's address, his father went to jail too and his father died in fucking jail, Michael Pollan. And I know that you're saying up here that there's no reason to put people in jail, people shouldn't go to jail for these things

but that's all you had to say. That's it, congratulate Denver because now people aren't gonna go to jail for these fucking things. But don't like, don't smash that fucking pyramid into your paragraph pyramid. You need to go to the pyramids, Michael Pollan. Don't smash that fucking paragraph

into your goddamn shitty essay because the option right now is it's either illegal, decriminalized or legal. And as long as it's illegal, people are gonna go to jail for something that is relatively harmless. And yes, you're right, there are potential side effects

from taking these fucking psychedelics in the same way that there's side effects from driving a car and there's side effects from reading certain books. There's side effects from going on certain websites. There's side effects, man. So many things in this world are incredibly dangerous but we don't need you to tell us that, Michael Pollan. What we need is the legalization of psychedelics

so that we can regulate them, that's it. And there's no need to try to push the fucking brakes down on something that no one's gonna be able to stop now. This is victory for everybody. Decriminalize, legalize, regulate. This is it, this is it. And yeah, sure, these things are potentially dangerous.

I had extra dimensional entities crawl through my body, Michael Pollan. I was praying that they would climb out of my body, they were mocking my prayers and it was scary. It was scary, I had to poop the whole time. But I don't think that the penalty for that should be me getting my teeth knocked out in prison by a fucking bank robber.

That's not where I wanna go to integrate that information that I got from that particular mushroom trip which wasn't my last but it should have been. So you're wrong here, Pollan. I'm grateful to you that you wrote that book. I'm grateful to you that you are part of helping bring psychedelics out of the closet. I understand that you feel a kind of obligation

to warn people about the dangers of these things and certainly nobody wants to see psychedelics go back into the underground completely. But we need people like you to be the cheerleader here, not saying fucking obvious platitudes about the fact that psychedelics are potentially dangerous, like we don't know that. Of course we do, of course we do.

And when things are, you know, Mr. Pollan, Dr. Pollan, Michael Pollan, beautiful man, my sweet child, my lover, I go online sometimes and order marijuana. Comes to my house in a child-proof bag that I can't open. My wife has to open it for me. And inside of that fucking bag, there are a variety of wonderful types of cannabis.

I like edible cannabis and so there's a nice breath spray that has on the back the exact dosage or the drops that I take have perfectly metered out the exact dosage I need to take for a variety of effects. And these are all detailed and they're right, because there's regulation and these drugs are being distributed in a responsible way. In the old days, when I used to go buy marijuana

in high school and step through piles of my drug dealers' pornographic magazines and looked up at the glowering deer head on his wall, the bones that were scattered about his trailer, like he was at the Texas Chainsaw Massacre House. When I would go there with the benzo diazepines that I'd stolen from my mom's drawer to trade for weed, he wasn't telling me dosages.

He wasn't telling me anything, except that this is good shit, man, makes your brain feel like tapioca. My bravado and passion aside, Michael Pollan, I'm sorry if it seems like I'm defaming you here. I think you're brilliant, come on my podcast. Humiliate me with your intellect. I'll weep, I'll apologize, I'll roll over, be a yellow belly.

But man, this is the time for celebration, not the time to regurgitate the shit we've been hearing ever since those dumb commercials. This is your brain, this is your brain on drugs, any question, that shit. We've been hammered with this kind of paranoia for too long, Mr. Dr. Michael Pollan, my lovely, lovely, lovely man.

It's time for some positivity. It's time to focus on the good side of psychedelics. It's time to focus not on the incredibly, infatessimally small percentage of people who have adverse reactions to these chemicals, but to the majority of humans who at the very least had a great time at a show. But some of whom have had

completely transformative experiences using psychedelics not under the eye of some doctor, using psychedelics not sold under some weird fucking name by a pharmaceutical company making billions of dollars off of them, but using psychedelics in the comfort of their homes among their friends with no scientists around to help. It's time to focus on that.

I love scientists because of you, my child, because of science, my baby is okay. He had jaundice and we had to put him under those lights. That's science. I love science and I'm excited about all the research that's happening. I'm so excited for my friends at MAPS who've been working so hard to do research on MDMA

and the way it treats PTSD. I'm so excited for all the scientists who are some of them putting their careers on the line to explore psychedelics. And I'm very excited about your book, but we don't need to pump the brakes on legalizing psychedelics. We need to accelerate towards the legalization of psychedelics

and most drugs for that matter. We need to regulate, we need to tax, and we need to use that money for drug treatment programs, which actually work to help people free themselves from addiction, as opposed to prisons, which I'm sure you're aware, are not necessarily the best place to go if you're struggling with inner demons.

So that's my fucking Sean Hannity Tucker Carlson, Rachel Maddow, feels good, feels good. I'm sure Michael Pollan's an incredible person. Forgive me, I got a little blustery there. I feel very passionate about this. Friends, we have a wonderful podcast for you today. East Forest, is here with us? We're gonna jump right into it,

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They are my longest running sponsor. So shine some light on the sweeties over at squarespace.com. Much thanks to those of you for supporting the DTFH by signing up over at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. If you want commercial free episodes of this podcast along with at least once a month, an hour long rambly thing, it's all there for you over at patreon.com.

And thank you to those of you who have become my patrons. I am your eternal slave. I love you and will always love you and will bow to you. I will kiss your feet. I will wash your feet with my hair. I will rub soft oils into your bodies, into your buttocks and hands and necks. I will put lipstick on you.

I will paint your face like a clown. I will walk with you into the sea. I will swim down to the king of the sea with you. And yeah, sure, our lips will turn blue. And yeah, sure, sharks will take big chunks out of our bodies. And by the time we get to the king of the sea, we'll be skeletons, but one thing's for certain,

I will still be your patronee and you will be my patron. And for that, I will eternally love you. Sign up over at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. We also have a shop with lots of awesome DTFH related stuff, including stop drinking crows milk and crows milk stickers. Check it out at dunketrustle.com. I feel so lucky that I got to hang out with today's guest. Thanks to Ragu Marcus, the love server member foundation

and the Ramdas retreat. Sometimes I get to rub shoulders with awakened enlightened sweeties. And East Forest is certainly one of those. He has produced so many cool, ambient, electronic, spiritual albums that I can't name them all. Most recently, he has gotten into a project with Ramdas and is producing these beautiful tracks,

one of which you can hear at the end of this episode. He has a, I believe, five hour album called Music for Mushrooms that is designed for a mushroom experience. And I was lucky enough to get to see him perform live at the Ramdas retreat. He is a wonderful human being, and I thoroughly enjoyed this conversation with him.

If you want to connect, all the links to find him will be at dunketrustle.com. You can also download his music. It's Spotify, Apple Music, or wherever you get your music from. Now, without further ado, everybody, please welcome to the DTFH, the brilliant East Forest. ["Welcome to the DTFH"]

["Welcome to the DTFH"] It's the dunketrustle, dunketrustle, dunketrustle. East Forest, welcome to the DTFH. I am so grateful to you for taking the time to do this here in Hawaii, where we could see this beautiful beach right in front of us waiting. Does this win the record for Best View while podcasting? I don't know.

I mean, these days, you know. You don't know? I'm sure someone's like podcasted from the top of the Eiffel Tower. Oh yeah, this is the best view. This is bananas. This is bananas, yeah. This fills me with a great deal of joy,

and I was looking out the other day completely stoned. And I had this wonderful, you know, sometimes you get good paranoia when you're stoned. Pronoia, as it's called. That was Rob Brezny-Noyah. But yeah, I was thinking, wait, when you get in an airplane, you don't really spend the whole time looking out the windows. How easy would it be to trick people into thinking

there was a lot of locations in their life when it's just like the whole thing's a big government experiment? You get on the airplane, they project sky in, and then they land you. Because I'm thinking, like, this is mostly where I go when I'm vacationing. And then I was like, holy shit,

what if this is some badass MK Ultra stuff? And then I thought. Well, they did a good job. Yeah, they did a great job. I mean, if this is being asleep, I might take it. Well, it is, isn't it? Do you pay much attention to the, Ram Dass kind of talked about it in this,

well, he didn't talk about it. He's saying, row, row, row your boat. Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy. Yeah, but you know that song, the lullaby? Yeah. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily, life is but a dream. Do you ever think like, holy shit, this can't be my life, I'm a brilliant?

This week I felt that. Yeah. But you know when people tell me that life is a dream, I don't know about you, it actually pisses me off. Because life, to me, does not feel like a dream. It feels like really real. And I feel like when people say that, it discounts the suffering going on

or the shit we have to go through. And that can't, you just came up actually in the podcast you guys were doing up there and that you brought up, and I was talking to Pete Holmes about this yesterday on the beach before everybody left, about we keep talking about remembering, right? And you're kind of hearing me in this space

of falling back in, but in order to fall back in, you have to fall out, otherwise you can't fall back in. And so sort of forgetting like that other side of it, forgetting is equally important. It's the grist for the mill, it's the engine of like all this spiritual stuff in a way. And we can't push that away. I mean, it's actually totally necessary.

Yeah, right, it's like, this is the phenomena of the compartmentalization of states of like, I guess what you could call sacred states and profane states. And so people, everyone has their own idea of like, okay, when I'm at a spiritual retreat or when it's the morning and I'm meditating, this is a sacred space.

But when I'm at the bar or when I'm pissed off in traffic or whatever your particular fucking thing is, this is a profane state and the two are completely separate. And these days, I think it's just like a, it's some kind of defense mechanism because people don't wanna deal with the fact that the entire thing is sacred and profane and the two things are-

Yeah, you can't escape it. Right, no escape. There's no way to separate them really. And some people feel a panic about that because they want this idea of like, oh, there's a, I can burrow into this particular hole and be sedated. I can burrow into this place and be no longer forced

into some kind of encounter with a divine, which for a lot of people is really initially kind of scary and not necessarily what you consider comfortable. Yeah, but that comes from that same place of running from something, which we all do in our own ways or some kind of pain that you're going away from. It's like people chase God in their own way without even knowing it.

It might be Monday night football, might be heroin, it might be a Ram Dass retreat. Sometimes it's a little more eyes wide open, but you could, I mean, if you've taken any psychedelic or gone into any of these sort of states where all that breaks down, all of it sort of rouse in a way. It's just ways to kind of ease your pain

that you're not with God, maybe. Well, I mean, that's kind of the thing. One of the ideas is that the ignorance is painful and the quality of ignorance is it hurts because you want to find an actual nipple. Like, you know, my baby, he wants a nipple. When he's sucking on my thumb, as he does sometimes, it's because he's hungry.

He's like, this blows. This blows, when does the milk come out of this thing? Yeah, it does it, but, and it would be disastrous for him if you didn't have a way to tell the difference between the two. Right. I think in our case, it makes me think of that Bhagavad Gita verse.

The person who's attached to the flowery words of the scripture is like he who drinks water from a well when it flows everywhere. And say that again. The person who drinks water. He who is attached to the flowery words of the scriptures is like a person who drinks water from a well when it flows everywhere.

And so in this case, the flowery words of the scriptures are the sacred place for this person. And everything else or certain other things are like, oh no, that's kind of where God fucked up. You know, like the scriptures are gray, but you know, the garbage heap, that God fucked up at the garbage heap. Well, it's too hard also to wrap your head around.

It's like why it's hard to see the density of the violence and suffering and think like, how does this work? You know, why? It's too hard to look at. It really is. If you really look, it overwhelms you. And I think that's a difficult thing to wrap your head and heart around.

Do you think that you maybe experience that level of empathy or compassion more than other people because your entire life seems to be orbiting or centered around this process of bringing music into the world that as you said in an interview, acts as a kind of guiding stone or potentially could help people reacquaint themselves

with something outside of the material universe. You think maybe you've developed a- I know I was born sensitive. Okay. And that's like my greatest asset and my greatest weakness. I think I've told this story that I feel like first grade, I did pretty well up until six years old. I remember life being really good.

And then I walked into school, which is total public school, normal school like desks. And I walked in and I looked around and I said, no thank you, not for me. And I left, I just left. Wow. And of course they bring you back, they force you to go. Yes, they do.

And I had a really hard time just fitting into that system. It was hard. Did you stay through all of high school? Yeah, yeah. And they really broke me. Like I really just bought in hook, line, and sinker. Like, okay, I have to get good grades. I have to do this.

This is the way through the usual thing. You know, I used to want to be a doctor. I said, okay, I need to be a doctor. Oh yeah, right. You know, I didn't do that thing. Did you have an inkling that you would become a musician or were you interested in music? I didn't think I'd do it as a profession ever,

but I was always doing music. It's mostly in school, actually, public schools. I did a lot of great choirs and bands and musicals, all that stuff, lots and lots of music. But never was I thinking I would be a musician. I was kind of a late start. So I was doing music. Actually, I was just doing a podcast with this guy,

Brian Cook, who's in the band Blitz and Trapper. You ever heard that band? Yeah. Yeah, he's the drummer. They're great. So we went to high school together. Wow. And we haven't talked in like 20 years.

Whoa, that's so weird. Where, what high school? It's called Sprague High School. It's like a public high school in Oregon. Salem, Oregon. Yeah. And I was just kind of thinking about it. I was like, you know, Brian, you were in the first band ever.

So like you guys brought in a cassette. I thought that was like so badass. And I didn't even know like how bands made music or like what they did. And at the time, I didn't, I had no concept of like, how to even connect the dots if I even wanted to do that. And then actually the way I started making music was totally a child of the digital revolution

because in 2001 is right when like the first M-Box and stuff came out. Like the first kind of like you could do it on your iMac and make music. Yeah. And my, I had inherited $2,000 from my grandmother's passing. Thank you, Baba. And I didn't know what to do with it.

And I was going to buy a motorcycle. I didn't know how to ride motorcycles. But I was like, this is, this is a smart decision in New York City to buy a motorcycle, right? It's totally safe. You can park. That was my thinking. You can park anywhere.

You can get right through traffic. It's a smart deal. So I, on eBay, I found this motorcycle. It's a Yamaha Vulcan, which is a pretty decent size bike. Didn't know how to ride, was bidding on it and thinking like, I guess if I win, I'll just like figure it out and write it down. It was the dumbest thing on earth.

And I got to the last few seconds of the bidding and some guy snatched it out, bit it. So I didn't win. I was kind of crushed. So instead, I said, I guess I'll take this two grand and I'll get some of this music stuff. And I called up, I think it was a store at Sweetwater, which, and I still talk to this engineer there,

who's a sales engineer or whatever. And he sold me an M-Box and some, you know, basic mic. Actually, it was this mic, this Sennheiser. No shit. Yeah, it was this one of these, I believe. And I started making music under my little loft in my little studio in Soho and it sucked. Totally sucked.

What did it feel like when you started doing that? Oh, it was a blast. I mean, like, as you know, it's just fun. And since then, I've probably made like 25, 30 records since then. And as you do in life, you just get better. As you do, you learn by doing. I do.

And I just got slightly better and over time until one day only, it wasn't until recently that I was like, because I'm self taught like as a mixing engineer too. And I finally was like, I think, I mean, there's way more to learn. But I think I kind of have an approach that I like versus like, I'm just trying to make it sound good.

Right. Yeah, right. So you, yeah. And that, there's an exhilarating feeling that goes along with it. Cause there, you know. You must have felt that with comedy. Yes.

There must have been a turning point you might have seen in the rear view mirror. I think actually it was like two years ago, I started to feel more confident. Sure. Yeah. Well, this is the learning curve, you know, and there are, this is why like in martial arts,

the belt system kind of makes sense. Yeah. Because you do, like it's like there is a recognized kind of a series of degrees or levels that seem to go along with any endeavor that involves learning. And certainly with music, there are these points where you feel like, oh shit, I, oh wow. I think I do kind of understand this.

For me, music has been mystifying. And I never once in a million years thought I would start trying to make music. I've loved music. I love listening. But never in a million, musical notation. I have musician friends and the way they listen to music is different from the way,

but all of it has seemed like almost a completely alien landscape. When you started getting good, what better, better, better. How good is your, that's so cool. Improving, I should say, yeah. Learning more skills. Yes. But there is a commonality between people I know

who are brilliant at their particular craft. They all are humble. They, I've yet to run. Oh, cause it's like so much more, it just never ends. It's like, oh my God. But when were you like, okay, I'm gonna go and do a live show. I'm gonna like book myself somewhere

and go in front of people. That never was hard for me. I immediately put myself out and embarrassed myself. What? It wasn't so hard to do the live shows. It's more hard just to get better. I did, I had some really ridiculous experiences, live, wise, you know, especially in New York City.

I used to do like just regular old bands, you know? Yeah. And played in all the clubs down there in the Lower East Side, all around, all sorts of ridiculous. I got pulled off stage. I've had the power go out and I sang on like a chair. You got pulled off stage. Unfortunately, that was actually more recently.

Yeah. It was, it was horrific. Where was this? It was in Oregon. I was playing a show in Grant's Pass, was it? Klamath Falls. Somewhere, it was a, let's say a conservative crowd. Okay.

I was opening for a friend of mine named Crystal Bowersock. She's a dear friend. She was on American Idol in like 20, in the heyday. She's the runner up. Wow. So she, and she's still, that made her career. I mean, it's like 10 million people who saw that.

Jesus Christ. And a lot, half of them were rooting for her. So she's, I love Crystal. She's amazing. Amazing voice. Like one of those people who sings like, it's just water coming out of them. You know, just can sing anything.

So she was, she, she's just cool. She's like, do you want to open for me on a few dates? Which isn't maybe a natural fit, right? And I was like, of course. And so we're doing the show with a conservative audience, old people, TV people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm doing my thing.

And I'm feeling like they're paying attention. I was like, these people are actually, over and over again, I'd see people really, they'd resonate, they'd get it, they liked it. But the promoter, whoever, you know, he thought this should be country or it needs to be this or it needs to be that. He's freaking out.

Cause he's projecting what their experience is. And he's off stage doing like, you know, cutting the throat thing. And like, and I thought there was like a fire or something. You know, like making all these gestures, like 20 feet away. And so I was like, all right folks, well, I think, you know, we need to end the show

and thank you very much. And I get off stage like, what's the problem? And he's like, they're just not into this, man. They're not into it. I was like, are you kidding me? I only play for 30 minutes and you cut me short. It's like, how dare you? And then afterwards, of course,

I met like these seven year old ladies and stuff. And they were just like, that was really interesting. You know, what is that? How can I get your music? And they're getting, they're feeling it. Yeah. He just didn't want to go there. He didn't want to open himself up

to something new and different. Well, this is, do you, it was crushing as a, as just, as like, you know, just me as a performer, that was, that's hard. I'm sensitive to that stuff. Well, and also rejection at that level is like, they say it affects a different part of the brain that the normal pain, like it's actually,

it's, there's some kind of like tribal thing where, cause if you're rejected from the tribe, you're going to die. So that kind of like performance level rejection, even from some neurotic, and you're already in a support role and putting yourself out there. And it's not, it's vulnerable to go.

I'm sure you've done this in comedy where you're trying to play for an audience that's you've got to fight to win them over. And have not won them over. And it's scary. I mean, I respect you guys for like, you guys practice doing that all the time. All the time.

Man. And drunk people. Horror stories. Horror stories. Drunk people are the worst. Or, you know, the thing with comedy, stand-up comedy is, maybe this has changed a little bit, is that people just assume that all stand-up comedy is the same.

So they'll just go to a comedy club and imagine like, ah, the guy, they're going to make, he's going to make me laugh. But they don't realize that some comedians have very, very different political and metaphysical sensibilities. So yeah. But do you think that one of the problems

is that you are bringing spirituality into your music? Oh yeah. And for a lot of people, this is completely not cool. Like, in fact, you're one of the- Which is so weird, you know, I'm not proselytizing anything. No. All I'm really putting out there is like,

just relax. And maybe something will emerge inside you that's already there, that's universal. I'm not even, I mean, it may be more lately in these ceremony concerts I'm doing, it's a bit more overt. But it's still, it always goes back to, this is about you having a felt experience.

There's nothing you can argue with in this. I'm not, there's no buzzword. There's no like, flying dolphins or Jesus that. Nothing. Yeah. It's just about, you know, take a breath. What do you notice? It could be a feeling, it could be a word.

Hold on to that for a second. Next song, you know. Yeah. Write what's coming up down. Okay, you know, it's just walking people through something they could, because that's what I want. I want it to be something that builds a bridge.

I don't want it as preach to the choir. I want to do something that's universal and that speaks to that core human experience that we all share. Yeah, and you, from the songs that I have listened to, you do have many, many albums. I was obviously, I didn't have time. I would have to spend like a week.

Disappointed Duncan. I'm sorry. I was like, I didn't do it. But from the songs I did listen to, which are beautiful. Thanks. Thank you. One of the things I was impressed about is that you don't fall into the trap

that it seems like a lot of spiritual music falls into of being didactic, right? There's sense of there being an agenda or a feeling of like. Or bad music. Bad music. Sorry. I'm not trying to put anyone in that category,

but a lot of it, I feel like they could work a lot harder on the music side. Because it's like, there's a lot out there these days. And for us, we're inside the same system, all of us as artists. It's like, you should be working hard. You should be making interesting art. You should be on the cutting edge.

Don't be lazy just because, oh, this is spiritual or something. So no, no, no. I play in a lot of yoga festivals. They, I get a lot of bookings in that world. And I'm a black sheep. You know, I had some guy come up to me a couple years ago. He's like, I love what you're doing.

He's one of the musicians. He says, you know, if you just put in some more mantra into your music, you get a lot more bookings. Oh, wow. I was like, that's the worst advice I've ever heard in my life. Basically, he's saying, if you just pander a bit more, they book you more. And I was like, then maybe I won't get booked.

Because it's like, I want to create something that isn't speaking to a lower common denominator, but one that's sort of new. And it creates a new spiritual language for our ears, our Western ears. And it's just, I don't know, I want cool music. And also, when you run into that place that is just, it's kind of unavoidable, I guess.

It is unavoidable. But there is that, what you just told me, I mean, it does sound like that person who came up to you was Lucifer, potentially. You know, it sounds like something, listen, let's commodify mantras. I have an idea. Is it in the back room, yeah?

Yeah, you could. If you just say these three words in your songs. Yeah. You'll be rich. Yeah, yeah. And the, you know what to do. This is one of the weird aspects of the circuit that you're on, I guess, is that it is a spirituality circuit.

And it is people who are on a journey. And it is people who are trying to expand. But also, you do run head on into the wall of commodification of spiritual materialism. And I bet you've had some pretty weird experiences. I came into the yoga world, not as a yogi, for instance. And first off, the circuit that I am part of, I spent a lot of time trying to reach beyond that circuit.

The whole point of this Ram Dass record was to reach people beyond the circuit. Right. Right, so it's like, I'm happy. I'm totally happy and grateful to have people listen to the music and support my livelihoods so I can make more music. And that largely comes from things like this or the wellness world, really,

which has been exploding in the last decade. Yeah. And I want to use that energy to expand into these other areas so that we're reaching new, fresh ears. Look, it's just, I feel we're all, if we're in service of our gifts, each of us, whatever those unique gifts are, there usually is a level of an active service in that.

This podcast for you is part of that. Yes. OK. This is right in line with your gifts, and it's been blossoming and folding in a way that you now are in an active service by doing it. And you enjoy it because it's part of your gifts. Right, yeah.

And so when we're in that sweet spot or we find those ways to kind of follow our bliss in the Joseph Campbell way, it's a really good sign. And it's a good sign that you're on your path. And so, yeah, I just want to feel that it's not that I feel like, oh, we need to turn these people under our team. It's like there's no team.

It's just I want to help ease the suffering that I feel to. I really do. And so often I find that if I'm creating a chord progression or a song that's soothing that part of my own pain, nine times out of 10, that's a universal pain that's going to soothe someone else. That's so cool. On the podcast, anytime I'm having an epiphany

from a conversation, I think, oh, that's, I know that's like other people listening are like, holy shit, what is that? And that is the, you know, what is it that Dalai Lama says? My religion is kindness. And yeah, perfect. Perfect. That's perfect.

And that is the religion. And where things start sucking is where they get people forget that that's the underlying principle. And then they get attached to the flowery words. And then suddenly the flowery words become. It's an identity. What's that? An identity, in a way.

An identity, yeah. And when you run into people who are the greatest teachers, they don't really have an identity. And you might hang out with them. And they might not mention anything spiritual. Did you talk to Charles Eisenstein recently? Yes, I did. He's someone I've come across and run circles with for many years.

Love him. Love him. And he too. Way back, actually, I almost can blame him for where I live now in southern Utah, because in 2008 there was a retreat that he was speaking at, this tiny little retreat in Boulder, Utah, a town of 200 people. And I went because I just read his book, The Ascent to Humanity.

One of his, this thing is like a second book. It's a really thick book that takes us through, like, the Stone Age when we lit the first fire to today and how we've been on this, like, trajectory where going through numbers and language and agriculture and everything and how that was a necessary path that we're on to get where we're going. But anyway, when I met him, what I liked the most about him

is that he walked his talk. Like, he was. I was like, oh, you're embodying everything you write about. You're not some fraud. And sometimes you meet writers, and it's kind of a letdown. Yeah, they wrote something inspiring, which is awesome. But they're not really at the place you wish they would be. That's right.

And so he's been that way. And he's not someone that goes into the metaphysical. Not that often. But the metaphysical folks love him because he's still speaking to this experience that's his gift. And he was able to put into words a lot of things I had always felt. He was able to connect the dots in a way that helped me say,

well, those are dots I've always felt, but you are able to finally do it for me. In the same way you on your podcast can bring a sense of humor to certain things that people feel that in them, but they don't have the skill to kind of create that humor. All of us sort of singing the song, we each can't maybe sing the part we can't sing.

That's right. Well, that's a chorus, isn't it? And the other thing is that the music that we're singing to is always changing. And it's based on a, I love this. Once I had this idea of, whoa, it's like in every millisecond, God is completely deconstructed and reconstructed, meaning that if there were words people were saying

100 years ago, that was for a God that died a long, long time ago, and since is reformed and reformed so many times, which is, I think, the present moment stuff is like listen to the music now, not the music that was playing back then, and sing to that music, and also have the guts to completely change yours tune because you know the music has changed, instead of just sticking

to the old stale rendition that's been going around, the top 40 stuff, you know? It's that, and Eisenstein is doing that, and any, but that is the idea, coming up with what the iteration of the thing is now. And when you do that, that's what's going to help the most. I mean, what, it would be like, if we're going to go back in time, let's say, which would be a terrible mistake,

probably, and we wanted to go to America in the 30s, but we were using the vernacular today, people would be like, what the fuck are you talking about? None of what you're saying makes sense. I don't know half of the words that you're saying. You would have to learn their vernacular, and in the same way if they came here, and were speaking in that way, it would seem bizarre,

and whatever their message was might be diluted somewhat by their, just the cultural shit tied into their language, so similarly, what you're doing seems to me, is though you're tuning into what's happening now, and you're not getting fucking so stumbled by language because you have music instead. Well, you know, that's the one thing I think is cool about music, is that, you know, sometimes you say

something or write something and you look back 10 years, like what an ass I was, why did I believe that? And then I think about everything I say now, and like, am I just going to think that in 10 years? Like, I try to be careful with anything I'm too strong about in my beliefs, but music sort of transcends language, and it goes straight to the emotional center, and I like to create music that has a sense

of timelessness to it. I wanted to do that with particularly the Ram Dass record, not do something that was too trendy, because I wanted it to last, and I wanted it to something that can speak to someone, both not just the words he says, but the music behind it isn't going to feel like, well, we're not there anymore, like it's that sound of the 2019 or whatever.

I'm so glad you pulled it off too, because one of the things that usually just frustrates the shit out of me, man, is like, when I'm on YouTube, and I'm like, oh, I just want to listen to some Terrence McKenna lecture. Oh, God, it's like the other music line. You're like, yeah, it's some son of a bitch. Yes, yes, somebody put like some awful side trance

behind it, and you're like. It's like a dentist making music with a machine or something. Yes. It's like, we just want to hear in. But you and Beretta have both pulled off something that's amazing, which is like, instead of having music that is overwhelming

or trying to italicize parts of what the teacher's saying, it just is like harmonizing with it. And that, I think, is very difficult. I hope it makes it more accessible for people, particularly who are not familiar with Ram Dass. Yeah. Because I think for a lot of the faithful of Ram Dass, for them, they might prefer just to hear a talk.

I'm like, great, go hear a talk. And it's like, you can't please everyone. But I was making this to sort of like, how can we enliven this work and make it more approachable? It's like a film score, because the music creates an energy and a feeling to what he's saying. And so it's just amplifying. That's right.

And sort of like if a movie without sound or without music is not as emotional. How did that come about, that album? The project? Yeah, the project. It's more than one album. Well, it's going to be one album, August 9th, 2019. But it's coming out in four parts to sort of break it up

as we go, because they're like little micro teachings. Gotcha. So two chapters are out. Chapter three is on June 21st, is Solstice. And chapter four, which is the whole 14-track album, is August 9th. And you went to hang out with him to record that? Yeah, yeah, about 10.

It was in last June. And I just pitched the idea to Raghu. And we had met because I did his podcast. And it was one of these things where I had a publicist, which was his brother, for a different record thing, different series going on. And we just weren't getting a lot of traction. And then I remember the one thing I got was this podcast

with Raghu. And I was like, it's your brother. Like, that was the one thing we get, you know? And I was like, oh, whatever. So we do the podcast, and it was great. And I got to meet Raghu, it's on Skype or whatever. And through that, we kind of got to know each other. Cool.

And so we had some mutual friends in the Sangha, so to speak, of musicians. And he went to India, he came back, and I had this idea. And I just pitched the idea of doing a record with Ramdas. And why I thought I would be a good person to do it. And to his credit, he green-lit it. Yeah. Oh, he loves what you did.

Well, it took a little convincing. I mean, there's been a lot of help. No, he was so excited about it. And that's great, because Raghu just doesn't mince words when it comes to life. No, he does not. Yeah, I love the man. I love the man.

And I had convinced him to let me come out. And this was a beautiful moment, too, because I was going to dig through the archives. There's 50,000 hours of Ramdas talking. 50,000 hours. I didn't even know where to start. I mean, I've heard a lot of those. But I just, every field recording

I've made in my East Forest music, of other music, whether it's field recordings of nature, or people talking, or whatever, is all stuff that I've recorded. So it felt like stuff that's come to me in my life. And sort of like, look, you can paint with these colors, but not all the colors. And that always makes better art when I think it's like, just use these.

You mean limitation. Limitation, exactly, exactly, yeah. So I said, I think it'd be better if I could record him. I know that's a big ass, because if I were him, he'd be like, look, bro, I'm 87 at the time. Just please, I'm tired. I can tell the same stories. But Ramdas said yes immediately, of course,

because he's rad. And the guy's like, I want to keep teaching. And Rogo, I said, look, if I'm going to do an entire record around this man's work and legacy, I feel on a minimum I need to look him in the eye, just soul to soul, which I've never done at the time. And just so we say, like, this is happening. And I just weave now, you know?

And he said, you're right, you're right. So he set it up. And I flew all the way out here. And I didn't know where he lived. I didn't know anything. I just had a date I was supposed to show up. And I didn't know if he'd be sick. I didn't know anything.

Maybe it wouldn't even work. So it showed up. And I walked in and set up my stuff. And I asked him some questions. And he just went off. And I mean, it was beyond perfection. Because he talks with pauses because of his aphasia from a stroke 20 years ago.

So he might take 30 minutes to say an answer to a question about dark thoughts or something. And then when I would go back and take out the pauses to see what I had, it would be like one minute with literally the perfect poetry with this beautiful opener, like mastery of speech. And it was sort of like that Robin Williams movie where people come alive from the old movie where they're like,

he's a doctor. And they can't speak. They're like festivals. And then they also can throw a ball. He teaches in the singing and dancing. Awakenings or something. Awakenings. Yeah.

All of a sudden, I mean, Romdoss is very awake. But I realize not only is he awake, he's like fully a master inside that we don't always see because we're busy with our brains going faster. That's right. It blew my mind. This guy is at the top of his game. Yeah.

Funny, poetic, and deep. And speaking to these things that are going on now, we talked about technology. We talked about the suicides going on and stuff. And I felt like it brought a sense of relevancy to his work. Now he's 88 when this is going to be coming fully out. And we don't have a lot of wisdom in our culture. We push that aside in American culture particularly,

especially if it's old. But when you hear it, you hear the age. And I think what resonates with people, especially who don't even know what they're listening to, they just hear wisdom. And it brings them in. They lean into that. And they're like, who is this?

Why is this touching me? And they want to know more. And then they go down the rabbit hole. That's great. Tell me your philosophy of music and magic. Like, yeah. Like sigil magic. No, I mean, I know that there's a saying that,

depending on the person, one person can say, be kind to everyone. And it means nothing. In fact, they can actually feel like they slapped you or something. It can feel like they're judging you or some shit. You need to be kind. Then another person can say, be kind to everyone. As I've heard people like Chogyam Trumpa or Ram Dass.

And for some reason, it passes whatever the spiritual blood brain barrier is that keeps us from taking in wisdom seeds. Do you think that whatever that may be, that energetic thing that is beneath the language or in the language or, I don't know. Do you think that can get picked up by microphones and transmitted through speakers? I do.

Some people, I think, who are purists about, yeah, that the music has to come from the bowl versus a recorded Tibetan bowl. But the thing about language, all of this is just mouth sounds that we're producing with these vocal chords. It's sound. Music is sound.

It's encoded into the big bang. That's how the universe starts. The sound, that's how even in the Western science says, which is like, I love that Terence McKenna line. It's like, look, just give us one miracle, and we can run with it. We're cool. We need one miracle, that everything came out of nothing

for no reason, and it's exploded. And then we can have all of science. You can figure out the rest. But we need that. Whoa, that's pretty cool. But it is, and it's also in the Bible, God spoke. It's the first thing, God spoke. And then everything began.

So I think it's all around us. It's like asking one of these turtles what water is. It just is what is. And we're at a time right now where music is the most pervasive it's ever been on, probably the history of the planet. Probably. And it's getting bigger every day,

and projected to double triple in the next five years with India and China, and it's everywhere. And if you say sound, like even this podcast, it's just all around us swimming in our lives. And it's always been that way. And the womb, the first thing to develop is your ear. Yeah, well, the first organ of sense. And so what are you going to hear?

The first four on the floor. Yeah, why do you think that's such a big deal? Like house music, drum beat. Why is a drum beat and shamanism, everyone starts to rattle or a drum beat, because it entrains your brain? Probably because we're used to that. It's the first thing.

And you hear the, you're in, I am Neonic Clute, you're in water. So I mean, sound, I think we actually discount and don't credit its true power. And I'm not even someone on the full end of the spectrum saying like, my sound healing predilections are more like good music and emotional sensibilities. And I look at what the science, what we know,

and also what people have done for a long time. But as you know, there are people who are like, 528 frequency does this and so far as you have that. And I'm like, we could go down that whole thing if we wanted to. But my point is that they're tapping into the fact that yes, I think sound in general in music, there's a lot more to it that we don't.

And we can use it as a weapon. Okay, DARPA, they have weapons of sound to explode things and we use it as a means of torture to make people go nutty. We play the country music really loud to the detainees. Also David Koresh, they played like music. Yes. And then they just lit them on fire.

And then they, yeah, set them ablaze. All those kids in there, they're playing like rat, the sounds of rabbits dying, mixed in with like. I mean, it's crazy. It's trash. It's crazy. And I also then think about people who are deaf and like that whole trip, but Beethoven.

Right. You know? Right. So music thinking, it's not just about what you hear. No, it's like there's some level of sound that is still encrypted and we're not really quite sure. There's like, definitely seems to be some data set in music that we are decoding with our hearts

and not our minds. And it is pressure waves. Like it is a physical thing. And it's pressure. Yeah, that's right. It is a physical thing. You feel bass. Yes.

I mean, your whole body and your chest. Yeah. Yeah. I think Terence McKenna, I remember back when it was at True Hallucinations, the one where he talks about going to the Amazon, they spent like two weeks just doing sounds with their mouths. They felt like that was the doorway

as they were tripping nonstop. Or DMT, a lot of people hear like this high pitch sound that's kind of like increasing, increasing. And you go through sort of a barrier. Yes. Well, this brings me to something I wanted to talk to you about and I'm excited that you're doing it. I guess like the...

I just noticed a pin on your hat. Nice pin. Thanks, man. I didn't even see that. You guys, you have fantastic art associated with your music, man. I love this pin. East Forest pin.

I'm a fan. I should probably shout out the artist. Yeah. Michael Robinson did the original Nautilus and James Warloid did that pin. Oh, cool. Yeah. So, I don't know if you read about this or not,

but they found a pouch. Did you read about this? A pouch? They found a pouch. Who's they and what's a pouch? You didn't hear? They found a fucking pouch, man. It's a beautiful pouch.

Like the original Bag of Weed. They found a pouch made of fox noses that's a thousand years old that had ayahuasca in it. Come on. And it's the oldest. How did they find this? They found it in like, I think it was like in my suitcase. Like I mean.

They have an Instagram account because I really want to follow them. They're always the ones. They know everything they say. They're incredible. You gotta meet them sometime. But you know, I don't know. Some anthropologist or whatever.

Some, someone out in Peru, I think. But the implication is amazing and we know, no one knows how far back ayahuasca goes or the ceremony surrounding mushrooms. But one of the things they do have in common is music, drums and a shaman who is using the technology of music to guide people, to heal people, to like help protect people.

And so it's pretty amazing that you have made, how long is it? A six hour? Five. Five hour, a five hour, I don't know, do you call it an album? If it's five hours? It's an album, yeah.

A five hour album to guide people through a psilocybin experience. And so I want to talk to you about that. But before getting into the music part, what are your theories on guiding trips on like being guided through a trip? I've always had a kind of a scatter shot approach to psychedelics and I have yet to be guided

through an actual experience. So I wonder if you can. Oh really? Yeah. So if you've not done ayahuasca, worked at ayahuasca, because it's always in the container of a ceremony, which is an interesting thing about that drug is that it's not divorced itself from the ceremony.

Well. Nobody parties with ayahuasca. Wow. No other drug is like that. That's cool. So it comes with it a lineage of music, the acaroas songs, which they define them as the technology of the main thing.

Like that's what's calling forth the spirits, that's what's guiding it. They are our chemical, these songs, these melodies, and they do them, that's why they do them. Psyllocybin, on the other hand, for instance, doesn't have that. It did have some ceremonial lineage in Mexico that we know about, but it certainly didn't travel

with it to the States. Right. And we don't have, well just for all intents and purpose, it doesn't have that. That's the case with most Western use of psychedelics, besides ayahuasca. And conversely, historically, all indigenous use, almost all, used music as a central vehicle

for the ceremony, the central piece of, the central tool, even like a Lakota sweat lodge, they're singing songs, and this is not obviously probably just because this is fun or that's the way to pass the time. It's actually the way to work with the brain and the way to work with the medicine and the way to work with your consciousness.

And I think they figured something out a long time ago about set and setting, about you need to feel safe and you need to feel comfortable in order to have a positive experience, which doesn't necessarily mean it's not challenging, but positive. Right. And so, I wanted to create something with psilocybin

because I have a relationship to that compound, which we could get into, but there isn't anything out there. And as you know with like Michael Pollan's new book. Yeah. And that's just sort of an example of the changing cultural winds that are happening more recently, where it's really starting to happen.

It's in Colorado on the ballot right now. That's today. Today, there you go. And California, it's the next wave. The FDA fast-tracked psilocybin as a breakthrough therapy status for depression. Wow. And I gotta hand it to them.

I mean, I don't know that a lot of the details of that other than that happened, but it's like, I think they actually say like we, this is an epidemic. Yes. And what do we do? That's right. And so there's, this is all happening

in John Hopkins, NYU, the Imperial College of London. There's been more research happening over the last decade. And I looked at the music that they're using, because they publish publicly the playlist of their music. And I know a lot of that music, but none of it was written for psilocybin. Right. It just happens to work for psilocybin.

And they cobble together these things. And they do research on it. And people are having positive experiences, but I think it could be even more. And I had my own research going on that was just sort of in the shadows for 10 years. And I've been developing this music and this protocol. When you say research.

Cats coming out of the back. We, it doesn't have to come out of the back of people. It's okay. No, it's okay. So the research you did was, I'm imagining. Guiding people. Guiding people. Yeah.

How, what is the size of the groups that you would work with? I don't like it to be any larger than 20, because it just feels like it's too much energy. It's too big. There's a responsibility there. It's the hardest thing I've ever done, but the most rewarding thing. And this is playing music for people

who are moving through the experience. Correct. And so this record music for mushrooms, a soundtrack for the psychedelic practitioner is from that space. And so it's live. Wow. Wow.

So it's coming from the energy of that space. And if I wanted to play that again, I'd have to like learn it from recordings. I don't know. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so you're hearing something be birthed. And I think that's also interesting too.

This is a little more metaphysical, but the music is imbued with the energy of the psilocybin because it's coming literally from, it's springing from that space. What is that space? What is that space? Yeah, I certainly don't know. I certainly don't pretend to understand it.

But it's sort of like the energy of Maharajee or the energy of nature. The energy of all these energies that we are part of, but is like putting your finger in the electric socket of the highway of the universe. And all these different compounds get you to a different highway perhaps, whether it's DMT or LSD.

But psilocybin is just one that early on seemed to become an ally for me. Not that I do it that often. It's more just like it's been a supporter of my, it's been assisting me. The music I made 10 years ago starting this was literally just how do I do this? So I thought, well, I guess I'll loop.

I guess I'm gonna do, it's gonna be probably slower and more long-formed because that helps with people's experience. And I was bringing in these nature sounds that I recorded because everyone knows nature is really wonderful on psilocybin. These are all ways to soothe you and let you go safer to go inside and go on this experience

and ultimately have a more profound spiritual experience. And that seems to be a lot of the juju for folks when they're having something positive out of this in these studies where they rate it being one of the top spiritual experiences of their life. Up there with like the birth of a child or the death of a parent. And they still felt that way years later.

But I have a feeling it wasn't just a chemical thing. It was that spiritual aspect. So the idea of ceremony itself, I feel like is really important part of these protocols. It's not just about like a pharmaceutical can reproduce a psilocybin once the FDA says you can, you just take it like an antidepressant and it just changes things in your brain.

I think it actually does. And that's what we need more research on because that could be these wonderful applications maybe for addiction and things. But I think that ceremonial aspect of like the experience that you have and that spiritual element is a lot of the healing. It's a psychological thing.

Sure, I mean it can't just be. This is like the, I talk about this. I'm sorry if you guys have heard me yapp about this and I'll make it real quick. But in the Brothers Karamazov, there's this sort of I guess analysis of Saul of Tarsus being converted to Paul on the road to Damascus, completely blind, used to persecute Christians,

has a vision, Jesus appears, says, Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me? And at that moment he's converted and becomes one of the great Christian missionaries. But Dostoevsky's analysis, which is Christian existentialism is like, well, if Jesus just touched Saul and he like changed, who gives a shit?

It's like there's no nothing there that's worth anything. It's just like a magical act. Maybe human. Yeah, that's it. But he was saying what happened is that at that moment, this person had an opportunity to shift their consciousness, their soul identity in a way that made them no longer monstrous and they did it.

And so this is I think the dance with any psychedelic. Is it's like, oh sure, look, here is your choice. I'm gonna show you a place you are weirdly familiar with that you've never seen before. I'm gonna show you the fact that the entire universe is teeming with entities that you up until now maybe haven't quite seen. I'm gonna show you,

I'm gonna show you the darkness a little bit. It's like clogging and clotting up your ability to love. But then you gotta do something too, which is, and I think that's under the umbrella of integration, you know? But it is not a one-way street, thank God. It's not a panacea, it's not for everyone. And it's just one more tool we have on this planet.

It happens to be a very powerful one, but it's one of many tools and it isn't for everyone. I'm not a believer that everyone needs to do this. I haven't even done it in a long time. Me either, I can't. And that's okay. I'm brutalized by the mushroom and the best way possible.

But dude, I know, you know. You do know. Oh hell, well I can sympathize, I can imagine. Have you ever gotten a spanking from Mother Mushroom? Yes, most of the time it's been my fault, meaning like there was some level of like blindness or cavalierness or this or that or stupidity. There was one time I'm still confused.

I kinda know why it happened on a dose level, but I was very prepared for a journey and I had support, but it was still, it kicked my ass in a way that I'm actually, to be honest, still traumatized from. And that level of respect that I have for is why I don't like to talk about it in a way that's saying like, it is very serious sober work. It really is.

And the reason I made this music was not to say everyone needs to go out there and trip. It's like, no, it's like, if you're going to do this, I think this can help and make it so you don't have that experience that I had. I want you to feel safe and have powerful but gentle. That's great. Well, I mean, I think that's kind of the sad head shop

culture that because of the prohibition maybe started surrounding mushrooms. It's like this ridiculous idea of like, it's silly sobbing, baby. You eat him and you just spend the whole time laughing at being floored to the wall. What you do is you take five dried grams and you laugh and laugh.

Yeah, the five dried grams thing too is a story that I think is a little dangerous. I agree. I agree. I hear that a lot from people. Five dried grams. That's the way to do it, man. If you don't do that, you're not doing it right.

I'm like, bullshit. Well, that is one of the weird, like as we're watching psychedelics become mainstream. Thank God. You're seeing all of these odd moments which in sort of like cultures emerging. And one of them that is fascinating is the sort of like approach to psychedelics

that you might take to catapult workouts or something. Are you serious? Yeah, you know. To work out? No, not to literally work out. But I mean, people are like, I did ayahuasca 14 times in a row. Oh, no, I'm well aware of the scene of people

who just keep diving in over and over and over again. And what's the, is it the Alan Watts? Who's the one who says pick up the phone, get the message and then hang up? Yeah, yeah. I used to say, well, Alan Watts was an asshole because like, dude, I wanted to talk with you a little bit more. I mean, I didn't want to just tell you

like where we're going to have dinner. But I get it. And the main thing is, Well, what are you running from? You know, it's just like, Jesus, take a breather. It's like, you're getting high. I mean, some people I think, and also I see people like,

they're not improving the way they're living their life as people walk on the walk. It's like, you're still an asshole. Like, I think it's going to help if you do it again and again and again. It's like, why don't you take a bit to just like, figure out, there's a reason why we're here doing this, just in normal waking life.

That is the main meat. And it's like, it's set up for each of us perfectly. And how you're born and your journey and all your struggles. It's like, it's exactly what you need to handle and what you're able to handle. And if we, going into those realms to learn things and get perspective

is extremely powerful and valuable. But always going into those realms, it just sort of starts to, it's very few people unless you're on the shaman path, that's what you're going to be doing. They're about the only ones who need to be doing that. That's right. Well, this is, to me,

that there's some kind of strange corollary with the stories of people from Tibet going down into India to get the Buddhist teachings and the technology of spirituality that the realization that spirituality is a technology, that Buddhism or the systems that exist are very non-different from like the stuff we have that is materialized as computers, the internet, whatever.

It's a technology. And so in the same way that people go and research technology all over the world and bring it back to their businesses, people are going and grabbing like the Buddhist teachings or the Hindu teachings or whatever. But similarly, I think as psychedelics become more mainstream, people are going to realize the DMT realm is a realm.

The mushroom realm is a realm. And the idea is we're going there to gather these data, bits of data. And then the way that we transmit that data into this particular realm is through action and through right language. And from that, whatever that may be, and quite often it's not about,

McKenna was good at it, but quite often it's not relating the dream that you had in there. It's starting a foundation. It's diving into a way of- Loving everyone, serving everyone, telling the truth. For real. Right?

The teachings that we talked about this week, it's kind of where the rubber meets the road. It's like, what do you need to do on your spiritual journey? And it was the idea of feeding everyone. And maybe that is enough. It's like, it doesn't have to be so complicated. No. Just do your best and help other people.

It's encoded in the golden rule of just do unto others as you would have due to yourself. It's like, if you want to feel happy, make someone else feel happy. That's it. It's just like, that's because it works. Trying to just feel happy, it's probably, it's very hard to do.

And you want to, I mean, there's something to me that is, and I get why people are like, dude, that's fucked up. You don't ever want to say like, there's, you should honor the guru. And what I, and people hear that and are like, what do you mean, some fucking patriarchal thing? No, I mean, in this case, for a lot of people,

the guru has become mushrooms. The guru has become DMT. The guru has become the visionary state. And if you are granted the presence of the divine and you're brave enough to recognize that when you had that download, it wasn't just like you were mashing an old school watch and making weird colors come out.

You got the darshan of some kind of higher intelligence. And then you come back here. And I'm not saying you, therefore, you have to follow some ridiculous moral code or some bullshit. But if you are here and you're all puffed up and your ego's gotten out of control and you've decided you're the messiah,

come to save the planet from being crooked. That happens, you know. It's one of the ways that so many people fall down is that. Then what ends up happening is instead, is people hear, the same thing happens, happens when there's a shitty spiritual teacher who gets caught fisting his fucking nanny or whatever. You know what I mean?

It's like, if the spiritual teacher was some conduit and had some beautiful way of articulating some new way to be, that articulation gets completely tarnished by the action and the teacher's inability to manifest it through action. It would have been better for the teacher to not say anything.

It's true. Fist the nanny. Yeah. You know, right? Just fist, yeah, don't say. Just fist. That speaks more. At least to the nanny.

But you know what I'm saying? So it's like, I think as we learn more and more about what that terrain is and ways to go into it, like what you're exploring, then maybe there's gonna be more of a kind of like stability to that state so we can get better at really pulling the data

from there into here. I think there will be over time. It's just gonna, we're really fighting a war of misinformation and there's an entropy happening, but it's gonna take time. It really will, man. I mean, God, we're so wild in this country.

It's odd that in America, we have built into our constitution the pursuit of happiness. I mean, it's just written right there. I know. God damn it. You, that is your right. Yeah.

To be happy and not go forth. Yeah. And in Canada, I think it's, I hope I don't get this wrong, is it's a peace, tranquility and good government. Is that what they say? Yeah. And then look at the energy of the country.

Yeah. This is the energy of our country. And it's interesting. We sort of made a choice early on about what was important to us. And it comes with a lot of pain along the way. So I think we're kind of going through our machinations that we need to as a culture,

almost like we're kids and we're starting to grow up and learn about what really brings happiness to us. Right. Well, I mean, and also when the pursuit of happiness is one of the first sort of, I don't know, one of the DNA strands or whatever in the American spirit.

And there is an actual prohibition on the pursuit of happiness to the point where you can go to jail. Yeah. For this pursuit. It is true. It's not, it's lip service in a lot of ways. Well, and you're also forced to deal

with the paradox of this insanity, which is that, oh shit, they're saying it's the pursuit of happiness. And yet things that are, can in incredibly dramatic ways, allow you to experience happiness made for some people. For some they felt happy since they were a kid. Yeah.

And that's, I think, why it sticks with them for their years after having the experience on mushrooms is because they've just reconnected with their true identity. So regardless, I think that because of the gradual shift that is happening, not just in this country, but all around the planet, regarding psychedelics,

we're gonna start seeing some new stuff. Your album being an example of it. Oh, I see, yes. Do you know what I'm saying? Because it's not as though like these mushrooms are just helping depression. It's not as though the mushrooms are just allowing people to deal with their trauma.

It's that some people go over there and they get authentic downloads that are technological in nature. Yeah, I agree with you. I agree, this gets, it's almost like there's a pre-cog type thing, like minority report, it's like we figure out like how to like tap in a group

and we can get into this group thing and go into these spaces and really, this is the best way to pull back the data and like disseminate to people. Yeah, man. I mean, I think we've barely scratched the surface on this stuff. Well, we're gonna start seeing innovations.

We're gonna start seeing, you know. We saw it already. I mean, you see people, lots of people from Silicon Valley said it's where they got a lot of their ideas. That's right. And they just didn't talk about that. That's already been happening.

But what if people have the strength to kind of say, let's lean into that a bit. Well, yeah, and come up with better ways of collecting and accumulating the data. More reliable, yeah, yeah. And also this very thing that to me that's incredibly suspicious, is this prohibition reminds me of like censorship.

In other words, it's like because the aspect, one of the aspects of the data set that you get over there is revolutionary in the sense that it seems to run counter to any kind of hierarchical system, any patriarchal system, any system based on war, any system based on exploitation. On anything.

Yeah, on anything, yeah, yeah. Because of that, it would make sense that a system dependent on these things would make it illegal to go over there. And so now because of someone made a big mistake, I guess, I don't know, but they let the research start again. And because of the research, scientists,

and thank God for the scientists in the FDA, I used to think they were all evil. They're not. There's good people everywhere. Yeah. And it is generational to some degree. And that's why it's a slow process. But you get inevitable.

You're part of that. That's what's cool about what you're doing is because I have thought of it sometimes as like, oh my God, there is some kind of legislative dam that has been built around the portals through which we can access a higher realm of thinking. True, yes. These dams have been intentionally created by people

who are making money off of weapons, imprisoning people, and just blowing shit up. Anti-depressants, yeah. And now the dam is breaking. And when a dam is breaking, you have a certain amount of time to deal with it before the entire structural integration of the dam is fucked.

So that's like, OK, you can stick your thumb in the hole there, maybe. But then there's going to be water shooting out of there. Stick your thumb there. So to me, I think we're witnessing the breakdown of this, what would you call it, an ontological dam. And whenever someone like you comes out of the psychedelic closet, so to speak, though, I don't think anyone who knows

your music. I don't think I was really, I was more to sort of, many of my music was from that space. But this is the first time I said, this is designed specifically for this. And I'm actually like, my biggest target is these research studies. And so I've been spending a lot of time

going through the channels of friends of friends of friends and meeting all these people. Great people. They are great people. Absolutely. They're just working within a system where they're trying to quantify it and qualify it and work with the FDA.

And I'm just saying, hey, I got this thing here, and it's another tool. I'd love for you to try it. Let me know. Maybe I think this could be even better. We could get even better results. And everyone else can use this to do yoga, to teach, to study, to have sex, whatever they want.

Just put on. That's all great. I just said, but they had a specific design. So don't write me and say, I don't like that the song takes 10 minutes to build. It's like, that's the point. Dude, I cannot do my bench presses to your fucking mushroom album.

Yeah, the shaker comes in too late, bro. How do you do it there? I don't understand how you, like, if you're doing live music for that amount, I don't understand how you theoretically. I don't understand it. OK. But I've seen, I just got to see you live for the first time.

I was not dosed up in any way, by the way. I didn't think you were, but I was still impressed, man. You've got the looping pedals. You've got the Nord, and you have some other stuff going on. I'm not sure what it is. A lot of stuff going on, plenty of places for things to fuck up. Did you see what happened?

I don't know if you're at the beginning, beginning. Very, very, very, very beginning. I hit my, I had to start some stuff on Ableton, and it just didn't start. Something was way, something was wrong. Something was wrong. And I had, of course, that sinking sensation of, like, oh, God, because my whole trip on this one

was about giving myself over to, like, Maharaji and this idea of, like, I'm not in control, and I get very worried about this stuff. Me too. Because I'm the only guy. And so I'm my own tech guy, and I'm, like, I have dreams about this. And so this time, I was like, I'm going to play with the energy

of, like, I give it up, I give it over. Whatever is meant to be, and I give it over. And so I hit play and it just goes It's like really really I look back at the picture of him and like you don't want this to happen It's okay, and I'm just a little bit freaking out. You know, so I had to go down there and like Do the whole like troubleshoot while you're you know, everyone's like, you know, who is this guy? Let's hear some music. It's scary stuff. Well, it would be scary if you seem scared. You've maintained a complete State of absolute tranquil calm to the point where no one thought I mean I saw it and I was like not a big deal

I don't know what it is, but it's not a big deal. Was it a big deal? Was it really deal in the sense that I didn't know what was happening? So your brain's like going through all the possibilities of like trying to you know troubleshoot computer things in your head and I and I just tried something and it worked Yeah, you pulled it off, but it might not have you know what I mean? And so you just have to roll that I had a performance once where I was playing and all of a sudden all the sound is gone Like as if someone like a total party foul like just at the like climax of this big song and I turned around and there was a 90-95 year old woman, which is odd inside a club and she was in the back of the stage

I don't know who she was or where she came from and she kicked the power cable out of the wall And I just like when something like that happens, it's so it's bizarre. It made zero sense It's like, well, I don't understand who this is. This is all young people here Yeah, it was someone's grandmother who they're trying to position her for the next set for Trevor Hall set And she's crossing behind the set in the back and she and she like poked her head out It's kind of waved as the power went out and it's something that happens. You just like what are you gonna do? I mean what? So yeah stuff happens, but that is also that that kind of shows you play at that is a thing that could happen

Beautiful that there's a 95 year old lady. That was like a club in Massachusetts sold out sweaty hot How did you how did you adjust for that? We plugged it back in and we bantered while I restarted everything we finished Yeah, because that's what you you have a practice and you're calm and you're no one's like, well, yeah I were you pissed calmer. No, I wasn't pissed at the girl, but I Do your best I was just talking to someone about I'm Brian about this the other day from Blitz and Trapper And he's like you really see who people are when stuff goes south. That's yeah

That's the real shining of like who somebody is dude. I didn't melt down once Like a true fucking meltdown once on camera. It's so I was so pissed. I was like scree so embarrassing I was like three This is like this is like years and years ago. I still thank God I have less meltdowns now, but this is what I was out of control man My mom was dying during this production and I was just like There was just a Bile sack. Yeah, it was full. Yeah, bulging bile sack of just a just shit in me that way

You come out. Yeah, you can just yeah, this is the but this is why we need the this is I think why psychedelics are so glorious in a guided situation because if you are taking the psychedelic With friends and you're doing whatever the dumbass thing is you're doing for us that used to be like going to the mall Oh my god, but watching pink paranoia the wall or going to a laser light show Yeah, and suddenly you're confronted with the bile sack. Yeah, it wants to be dealt with wants to be dealt with Yeah, that's the thing it's coming up because it's like help me be Expunged that's right. Yes, and your friends are like Dude, what's wrong with you pussy?

Man, I saw this one of the most Sad videos, you know, there's a whole genre of salvia diva norm videos on With kids filming themselves on salvia's of that. Yeah, this fucking video man This kid is on salvia and he says something like I wish I could find out I wish I'd saved he looks at his friends and he's like you guys I Just I suddenly had this weird sense that we've been together forever And that we and that we live forever and I've known you guys forever and his friends like shut the fuck up punches him A few lifetimes so that one gets dealt with yeah, but okay, so I am

We're gonna wrap it up here. The beach is calling us but I wanted to If possible, and I'm sorry to put you in this position, but you do this with your music and I've heard Seen it in some of your interviews. What is that right now? Like if there is a song being played by the present moment or the Exhalation of the divine what what do you think the words to that song are right now for the Guy who has very few lyrics, but yeah, yeah, to me it probably more of a melody, but the words Honestly, it'd be something like sometimes when you do psychedelic trips or you have these big epiphanies

You need to try to write it down because you want to translate that seed back into your lives And it just looks like it just says love or it's like a picture of a circle or something like that But it I often if I had to kind of sum up all of those experiences even the good and the bad There's always been this message of like it's just all good. It's all good and We can find some kind of solace in the idea that Even when things are shitty for all of us because they are they are and like we said you remember but you have to forget That's the that's the engine of this yin yang of our lives. Yes inside. It's being held inside this egg This container of it's all good and maybe that's love

maybe that's Just the continuity of existence in life, but There's a simplicity of the statement because it's just trying to represent a larger energy That is beyond the boundary condition of this consciousness that we have right now just like trying to tell my dog. It's all good He won't I can't he won't ever understand those words But I can transmit that feeling and there's these octaves of consciousness just like in music There's octaves of music that go in infinity in both directions literally. Yeah We have to trust that we can only like the spectrum of light

We can see there's a there are these octaves of our consciousness and there is we there has to be more beyond and below Because there's more and everything else we look at in the physical universe. Yes So it's bound to be the case with consciousness, too. So we just have to understand that it's all good. I Hope for us. I think you're right. It's better now. Thank you so much for your time here. I really love your show Thank you. Thank you. I love you, too. Yeah, where can people find your stuff East Forest org if they go to East Forest calm It's a it's I think it's Chinese or something I don't they sell like things. I don't know lizards breath and it's nothing I would like to yeah, I haven't been able to communicate with them to try to bother the domain

But they've been around for 10 years. So it's it's org East Forest org East Forest org all the links will be at dunk at Trousel.com. Thank you so much. Peace. Howdy Kushner Thanks for listening everybody that was East Forest all the links you need to find East Forest will be at duck at Trousel.com a Sincere, thank you to Squarespace Responding this episode of the DTFH and much Thanks to all the mothers on planet Earth for allowing us to exist and for making sweet slow Deep love to all the fathers until next time. I'd a Krishna Good time starts with a great wardrobe next stop JCPenney family get-togethers to fancy occasions wedding season two

We do it all in style dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne Worthington Stafford and Jay Farrar. Oh and thereabouts for kids super cute and extra affordable Check out the latest in store and we're never short on options at jcp.com all dressed up everywhere to go JCPenney I Good time starts with a great wardrobe next stop JCPenney family get-togethers to fancy occasions wedding season two We do it all in style dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne Worthington Stafford and Jay Farrar. Oh and thereabouts for kids super cute and extra affordable Check out the latest in store and we're never short on options at JCP.com all dressed up everywhere to go

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