Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 409: Emil Amos

Episode Date: November 14, 2020

Emil Amos, great musician and eternal outsider, re-joins the DTFH to talk the occult, cults, satan, black magic, and more! Check out Emil's band, Holy Sons, and their new album Raw And Disfigured. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: BetterHelp - Visit betterhealth.com/duncan to find a great counselor and get 10% off of your first month of counseling! BLUECHEW - Use offer code: DUNCAN at checkout and get your first shipment FREE with just $5 shipping. Mud Wtr - Visit mudwtr.com/dtfh and use promo code DTFH at checkout for 15% off your first order!

Ghost Towns. Dirty Angel. Out. Now. You can get Dirty Angel anywhere you get your music. Ghost Towns. Dirty Angel. Out. Now. New album and tour date coming this summer. Greetings, my darling friends. Thank you for joining us. If this is your first time listening, my name is Duncan Trussell. Used to be a divorced lawyer. Was hit by a micro meteorite right at the nape of my neck and became enlightened. And now I lead spiritual orgies in Lexington, Kentucky in a very small warehouse. It's kind of hard right now because of COVID, but we've got some workarounds, full latex suits, and we all wear goat masks. It's delight. You can find the link to sign up for one of these orgies at DuncanTrussell.com.

My dear friend, Emil Aime is the great musician, eternal outsider, brilliant philosopher, somebody who I was friends with in college. I'm so lucky that I ran into this guy and that he derailed me from whatever boring ass tracks my train was chugging down. He's here with us today and we cover some of my favorite topics on earth, the occult, cults, Satan, black magic, the Illuminati, and much, much more. But before you listen to the podcast, do yourself a favor and your future incarnations a favor. And head over to thrilljockey.com, pick up Emil's new album, The Holy Son's Raw and Disfigured. If you're gonna get into a cult, get in a good one. And Emil's cult is the best cult out there. Emil's musical scrub off all those sad barnacles that have accrued on your poor soul.

You'll feel like some kind of happy inmate in a gothic lunatic asylum who's getting spanked by a beautiful fucking nurse. You deserve it. We all do. So check it out. It's on thrilljockey records. Also friends, if you are looking for commercial free episodes of the DTFH, if you want to join your sweet family, we wait for you at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. We've got a group meditation every Tuesday. We got a book club.

The next book is gonna be Grist for the Mill. And I think we either start that this week or next week, you can find out at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. And then of course, every Friday, we join together for our wonderful family gatherings. I invite you to join us and to support the DTFH over at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. We also have a shop located at dunkitrustle.com. Right now, the link's not up there, so we work out a few minor technical problems. But once we figure it out, we will be back. So you can check that out at dunkitrustle.com.

Now everybody, please welcome to the Dunkitrustle family, our podcast, Emil Amos. As you are with us, shake hands going to the moon. Welcome to you. It's the Dunkitrustle family. Emil, welcome back. Tell me, it's been a while. It's been too long. And we both have become, I don't know, like what do you call it?

COVID refugees? We both moved to North Carolina. No, I didn't see that one happening. You probably really didn't see that one happening. I didn't see it happening. No, man, I really didn't. That was one thing that I did not see in my future. Was it always kind of in the back of your mind that maybe you'd go back to Chapel Hill?

I had daydreams, yeah. I think early on, after we lived together in LA, I got up to Portland. And it was just such a rough, rough time that I remember looking out my window and just thinking a lot about how much fun everybody was having back home and how they were supportive of each other in terms of like the music scene and like I didn't have that in Portland. I just felt like I was against the world. And I think it's safe to say you were probably feeling pretty similar

like right after I moved out of the apartment in LA. I'm imagining you felt pretty doomed for a little while or were you having a ball? No, I don't think I was having a... I think that was the, that when you left, that was the beginning of a pretty brutal time because I had to learn how to do comedy and, you know, like live in like uncertainty for a really long time. I was grinding my teeth at night and stuff. I was so stressed out because you just, like God, it was so crazy to think I would try to get into comedy and so weird.

Yeah, there was a part of you that like, there was a part of you that truly didn't even want to do it. You just knew that you had to get to the other side of that, that initiation process. Yeah, I think so, man. Yeah, I just like, it was just great. It was just weird, you know, and then the more you realize it's a possibility the more you, it's like, for me, that seemed like a really nice kind of job. I mean, I think we both share a kind of like sense that we, a real feeling that getting stuck in like a, in a weird fucking job with a weird boss is like one of the levels of hell, right?

Well, I think kids listening or maybe long-time listeners probably assume they came to us when we were like, in their minds, you know, we had sort of been established or something. I'm just using that term loosely, but there was never an early parallel between us in terms of careerism or anything. There was just this idea at school that I had to play music whether I liked it or not. And then, and you were still deciding what you wanted to do. But we never knew that we would go off in these different directions. And then in weird ways, the same thing would happen to us.

And then we'd kind of curve back to this extremely similar place, which is extremely a very rare place where you can produce your own art straight from your house and sort of sell it to the world as a business. That was never in the cards. There was no plan for that. No plan. We couldn't even imagine that that would be some kind of possibility. Like, because the technology didn't exist. I mean, that was the grim thing about coming up during the time we did. Like, basically, we were like one of the last generations to not have access to the internet.

And so when they were telling us about the possibilities for our future in school, there was no internet. So it was, the possibilities were pretty like, a lot of those things they were telling us we should go and do. I don't even know if those jobs even exist anymore. And certainly not in the same way. Did you have to take cursive when you were in school? Oh, yeah, I took it all, but typing.

Dude, yeah, typing. And I can remember being in typing class and just not naturally thinking like, God, this is what the future looks like. This is the world. Like, you got to learn how to type on one of these stupid fucking things. Like, this is the world. You need to remember that you need to learn how to type a certain number of words per minute, WPM. Remember that?

Yeah, it was actually the one thing I could do well, the typing. But so what I think is almost impossible to explain to a post internet person is that the gatekeeping system was so rigorously set up. And part of my question for you is that when I left LA, you know, we don't ever talk about this time that much, partially because it was miserable. But I'm fascinated with that time because that was that period in your 20s where you just basically have to, like you were saying, that you have to swim in these waters of uncertainty that have no end really in sight.

And you're kind of just perpetually sinking. Your head's not even above water. And did you face, did you come into contact with a very palpable sense of the gatekeepers in LA? I mean, there's moments in your career where someone might have taken you aside backstage. And I wish I could watch the movie of your life and see these moments where someone took you aside after you're set and said, you're no good, man. Like, you're not good at what you're doing.

Those terrible moments. Yeah. Did you face the gatekeeper? I mean, it's ironic because you got hired to be the talent agent at the comedy store. So that's really ironic that you got put in that position. Yeah. And certainly it helped. But like, you must have, did you come face to face with the gatekeepers at some point?

Sure. Yeah, because you have to, because back then you would have to, you know, the gatekeepers were, you know, a cobble of people who worked at clubs or people who worked at networks and would listen to pitches. Because that was the way in is you would have to come up with some idea of a show and then you bring it in and you pitch it. And then if they like it, then you get to make a show that if you make a show, it gives you this kind of weird credibility.

And then that, you know what I mean? And then from there, you get into this trajectory of success. But until then, yeah, you got to go through all these people. And like, it's not just the obvious ones who are like legitimate like business people who are trying to find good ideas because they have to get generate content. But it's like those people are surrounded by other people. And that's where it gets weird. You know, that's where all these like parasitic goblins appear.

Like people who not only don't really have any power at all, but who are like have designed a kind of dark life around pretending to have power, scooping people up who've arrived into town. You know what I mean? And then like essentially like misguiding them, giving them terrible advice. Did you ever run into that like bitter? Oh my God, yes. Bitter people, just bitter people giving you rotten advice about how you're supposed to like get ahead.

And I look back and think, God, that some of the shit they told me was just completely wrong. Right. And they are milking. What they may see or unconsciously know is a pure active sense of self loathing inside of you. Because you have to believe at that point that these people might help or there is some kind of like, you know, traction in the wall to get out of this sort of bottomless pit. And so they use that piece of yourself that doesn't believe you're good enough and they use it on you until you can one day finally figure out that they actually have really no power.

And the whole time you, you know, you were essentially right. You were just sort of doing what you were needing to do. And that's all you do need to do is just do what you need to do and follow your gut. And so that that moment when the gatekeeper falls and you realize that they were a symbol you were projecting and nothing that was actually there that you even needed. That's like one of the more depressing moments too, because that thing you looked up at that parental entity, the older brother or the father figure just sort of looks so small and sad and pathetic. And you thought you needed them and you had invested so much mental energy into them.

And then bam, all of a sudden you realize you're the adult. It's such a sad moment. Did we ever talk about like when I ended up like briefly in Jeff Conway's orbit? Yeah, I was going to ask if you wanted to remember I'd come through town and you'd always be in like no discredit to you at all. Like you'd always be like working on your your current like scheme to get the fuck out of the bottomless pit, you know. And and I would be to it's just that years were so LA and mine like Portland had no there wasn't really much traction there was just a lot of just intense competition between musicians. And then there was no real ladder out back then so it's kind of I was just miserable and but you were like you had like sort of palpable situation that you were trying to work with and so every time I'd come through you'd be like yeah so I'm writing a script with the guy who wrote Waterworld. And I was like, well, I don't know where that's going to lead.

I mean, it's not, you know, not a most very respected film. But you wait. No, I know you're talking about wasn't what wasn't what I don't think is Waterworld. It was actually that it was. So yeah, that was some that was battlefield earth battlefield earth. So I got, you know, JD Shapiro, he's he's a very cool guy, not a gatekeeper, really funny. He he got in a fight in the cafeteria of the Scientology building like got in a fight with somebody in the cafeteria scrappy guy. But like that that was.

Yeah, you're always doing something like that. I in one of those things was somehow because like you always there's always somebody's like hey man I'm working on something with Jeff Conaway and or some you know celebrity from a long time ago but because like who the fuck am I. I have like maybe two and a half minutes of unfunny jokes that I do every Sunday. You'll take anything you can get and like suddenly you're in like this. You're up in the Hollywood Hills and this weird mansion with Jeff Conaway and this strange orbit of people around him and the mansion has been foreclosed on and he's smoking herbal cigarettes and he's like talking about how he has an idea for a scene in this pilot script that you've been working on. With all these people that you that are portraying themselves as being very like LA and very six already successful like in my mind I'm like this is when you're just completely happy to sleep on a mattress on a floor. And like if you know if you have cheese in the fridge. It's wow cheese or if you if you fill your gas tank all the way up.

It's like holy fuck I just filled it all the way up things are on the up and up for me now. And like I like I remember him saying this. You know I think at the time he was really struggling with addiction. It was really sad. He would go to I went to the dentist's office with him once. I'm just remembering this now and he would bring headshots of himself. And like and it was weird and I remember he man I remember he the idea for the script was someone is robbing up. It's about I think it's about some people running a pawn shop and someone comes in to rob the pawn shop.

Jeff Conaway runs the pawn shop. Someone comes in to rob the pawn shop and Jeff Conaway converts him to Christ. That's the pilot. Now this is the dude that OD that was in taxi right. Yeah. Okay. Okay. I remember that was another face.

I I have many times at parties confused water world and battlefield Earth for some reason. It's easy to blend together. But you tell me what about you man in the music world are there versions of that like how does that look in the music world. Well yeah there's definitely versions of it. For sure when I mean we were in the same exact position right you're just trying to get essentially booked on a stage which is like kind of my nightmare. I did that's not what I wanted to do in any way. So I'm finding myself you know following the advice of older people since I was little saying you know you got to make a name for yourself before people buy your records. Right.

You know which is the equivalent of your podcast which eventually we just basically did we did what we wanted to do in the first place without following that same trajectory. And somehow we we won. And I think it does have a lot to do with technology. The thing that you were you were really on the cusp of I wasn't paying attention to that you taught me pretty much everything I knew in the beginning you gave me my first drum machine. Did you know that you gave me now first down forage. Yeah you gave me the drum machine. I did declare the West with all that stuff. Yeah.

And it was rebirth because you just went like you already interested in electronic music and I was just like. Yeah. You know I had no interest in anything electronic but once you were showing me like basically the recording programs I was like I can repair my my four track recordings and then eventually I begrudgingly moved on to the. Yeah. Computer which was a big deal for me and only would have taken like in that way you you were the you were the older brother or something that that kind of put it in front of me for long enough so I realized you know I needed it. But yeah we have so many stories. You are a purest. You know you were you had you had a very strict ethic regarding music at that time and it definitely electronic music was not part of what you were interested in at all.

You in and I really like I always think about that I still love that I mean I love like you were because what you. Still do you had this this kind of like. Oh man I kind of like transcendent simplicity in the way that you were making stuff that was like like really rigorous you know what I mean and from it like forced a really beautiful style of music. You know because like all the normal distractions you know it's so easy to add all this extra shit to anything you're making. That you just don't need and in that you know in that constant addition of like completely unnecessary flourishes whatever the fuck it was you were trying to make in the beginning just kind of gets suffocated under all the icing. Yeah you know what I mean so by the end there's nothing there. You know like whatever you that initial impulse gets so diluted by like for me it's just insecurity. You know that's how I always know whatever I'm making isn't that good if I suddenly like start adding a lot of effects to it or something.

You're totally you're totally right but like you know things about me that I don't remember or or didn't notice and then I'll I'll be able to remember things about you so it's interesting you say that I didn't really have technology. In front of me in the beginning so there wasn't this idea that I could have just picked up all these plugins you know. Friends there's something interfering with your happiness or is preventing you from achieving your goals like I don't know maybe you're in a global pandemic where every time you go outside you wonder if you're going to suffocate to death. Better help will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist. You can start communicating in under 48 hours. It's not a crisis line. It's not a helpline. It's professional counseling done securely online.

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In fact, so many people have been using better help. They are recruiting additional counselors in all 50 states. So any of y'all who are licensed therapists out there, maybe you could find a job. Special offer for the DTFH listeners. You can get 10% off your first month at betterhelp.com forward slash Duncan. Thank you better help. Dude, wait, let me tell you a story about you. I remember playing house music for you once.

And I was excited to play it for you. And I'm like, listen to this. And I played it for you. And I'm sure it was a terrible song. Like, who knows what it was like prodigy or something. And I've had two very powerful experiences that I needed where people I respected rejected the music that I liked. And one of them was when I played Ellie Smith for Joe Rogan. It's just a fucking stupidest thing to do.

And the look on his face was like, just not. I don't know. The look was so funny because it was a look of like sympathy and confusion. Because he's like, his response was just like, you shouldn't listen to this. And then, but when I played whatever it was to you and what I know it was, it couldn't have been a good song. I don't know how I had it or what medium it was stored on. But I was like, what do you think? And you know, when you're excited about a certain style of music and you play it for some of your respect and they don't like it, it hurts.

But I remember I played it for you. I'm like, what do you think? And you just kind of like, you just shook your head and you said, it just makes me feel cold. Well, you gotta remember, like, I started really, really early, right? So when I was even, maybe even 11 or 12, I was already here and things like Fugazi, which everything about Fugazi was like, no, like they didn't want a light show, right? Even today when I go play in Sweden with Ohm, Europeans always come up to me like, you guys, you should really get a light show. And I don't know what to say because coming from that world back then, there's nothing wrong with that. But like coming from that world back then when you didn't even have access to the idea of lights or computer programs, there was this idea that like if all you had was a guitar in the stairwell where I recorded in my dorm,

that you ostensibly had to go climb up in the cave like Zarathustra or something and just figure it out, you know? And because we have the Beatles as sort of the base jumping off point of basically all rock music in terms of, you know, expansion, curiosity and like exploration, I just thought, you know, you see a picture of John Lennon sitting on a piano or Paul McCartney sitting on a piano. When they sat down with the piano, that meant it's time to listen closely. Something serious is going to happen, right? Right. You're not thinking about, no one thinks about plugins or, you know, electronic music symbolized a lot of kind of silly equipment and clothing and culture stuff to me at the time. So being that I was in the very middle of that seat where I was, all I had was a guitar and I was in a room. And once I walked out of that room and showed the world what I'd been working on for years and years and years, it just, it had to be legitimate.

It had to be good. So that was just like a code I was trying to crack. So then you walk with like the culture of electronic music at the time and no offense to anybody. I know it's been rescripted as a very fashionable thing, but the fashion of it was so embarrassing. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, I know what you fucking mean. You mean those big ass pants we were all wearing? And the pacifiers at the time and like Asheville.

And the candy necklaces. Yeah, there was exactly in glow sticks and stuff. And there was no raves up there. So when I see people trying to echo something they know is going on in the big city in like small towns, I always feel kind of bad for them. I'm like, I mean, that's your right. You know, to wear those pants and the little like, you know, wife beater shirt and like dance around with your headband in between classes and the lobby of the, you know, but like, it just looks so fucking dumb. And they were all in the muppet babies. I'm just saying like the aesthetic.

Oh, no, I remember, you know, I'll tell you this though. To me, the thing about that aesthetic that in the thing about the small town rave scene and the thing about it is I don't I to this day, I have never encountered anything more satanic than looking at someone dressed like, you know, a toddler wearing like a muppet babies t-shirt covered in glitter, painted fingernails. You know what I mean? Glow stick. Vakes. Vips. What's it called?

The vape Vicks vapor rub. You know what I mean? You look down. You're like it. One of these raves before, you know, it was became anything in your one of these raves. You are high as a fucking kite on some kind of crazy drug. And you look over. And there's someone dressed like a toddler whose eyes have rolled completely back in their head.

I'm basically a seizure because they're on so much ecstasy and they're in like a cuddle puddle. Candy necklaces, the wafting sin of old men, the shit people used to rub on their chest when they had a cold, rising up from these like weird vignettes of like people dressed like babies. So high. We're this crazy fucking music coming out of giants. To this day, I've never seen anything that is like more like weirdly satanic. You know what I mean? Because it was and I don't know if that was the intention. If it's like, look, we're going to dress like babies, but we're going to be so fucking insane.

I think you're you're right. It's like you're I hope nobody listening just thinks we're like trying to mutilate a culture's fashion. It's not about that. No way. You're basically seeing Tex Watson the moment after Manson first convinced him to drop everything. There you go. You know what I mean? That's it.

Because like once once somebody sees that there's this like the older brother that's doing this cooler thing and then they go out and buy the outfit. There's a moment of inflation where they think they know everything. Yeah. And really they're just in this really dangerous like you're saying these dangerous waters of kind of vague conformism that are such a pathetic moment. And we all experience it and we all remember the clothes that we bought and we all remember the fucking hairstyle we had when we were totally diluted. But at that moment that kid doesn't get it. And they think they're onto this thing and you don't you don't get it. And you're like, I mean, you're kind of feeling so bad for yourself and them finding yourself in this world.

And I had come out of like hardcore and hardcore. It was like in punk, you know, the entire structure of punk socially like the sentiment of punk with all that like, let's get back to what's real. Yeah. And the entire world of the subculture was a bunch of people posing as tougher or more real. But like no one person really felt that way. So there was this intense competition trying to embody this sense of punk. So you've got this entry level kind of conformism just running rampant. And I had already wrestled with that with all my high school buddies in our in our first hard club.

So so by the time I'm getting to college, I mean, I'd kind of seen these patterns and you have to understand like the pain of competing with other little boys. Like when you're in high school is so deep. It's like such a deep cut because inside I just thought like, well, I want to do this thing. I believe in the power of art. I believe in these songs and the ability this open horizon of creativity. But in order to perform that creativity to practice it, you're taught that you have to have a band in the in the guise of Beatles and you have to go to the music store and you have to buy all this stuff. I was like, no, I just want to do the thing, the pure thing. But like everybody around me just agreeing on what day to practice, what time to be there. Like someone getting mad because someone else's girlfriend is there.

Like someone's amp not working. Someone having, you know, just like the minutiae of the struggle to make the thing was so laborious and annoying. And every, I mean, the problem was everybody's ego, everybody feels that they are the star, no matter if they're just the fucking tambourine player. There's always this sense that you've got to wrestle with everybody sense that they're really the superstar. And so from ninth grade, I was already just like, dude, just let me do the thing I want to do. I don't care if it even fucking works out. Just like, yeah, why do I have to go through this process and older people were telling me, yeah, you got to get up on stage at the local club. You got to like make make some buzz happen.

You got to start getting people to your shows. And then eventually, you know, someone might put it in record, I was like, fuck all this shit. I'm not going to do all this shit. And so by the time that I met you, I was just like hardcore in my private feet, you know, trying to crack this code. And so kids walking through that were just sort of, I call them converters, like people who have just taken on a whole thing and they take it on way too strong. Yeah. There's this old friend of mine, this girl in Portland, who had just started dating one of these guys and he had gotten in his head in one weekend that he was going to be part of the Portland bike messenger culture. You know, that's kind of like something that's been lampooned quite a bit, but like, that was like a really tough guy punk.

Well, sometimes cross punk stance. And this guy had went out bought the outfit, and he went into this bar that was known for being like an underground bike messenger bar. Yeah. He saw a SUV of like subtle, I mean, I guess they were frat boys. I don't know what they were. They weren't really anything, but they he identified them as the enemy because the night before he'd been anointed in his mind as this special warrior, this special messenger. So he just slashed their tires. What?

Because they were in his mind, the enemy, and they just walk out, see him slashing tires and just brutally destroy him. Just completely beat him near to death. And like, he has to go to the hospital. And what's he's just lying in that bed, you know, thinking like that kind of jihad righteousness. You know what I mean? Sure. Yeah. And that's the converter.

That's the converter's inflation, the ego inflation that happens right after you join a club like that. Yeah. You know, man, it's so curious how regardless like of where it shows up in these little clicks and clacks, this hierarchy appears. You get neophytes who feel somehow that with somewhere if they could just get far enough up that hierarchy that they'll a great mystery will be revealed. You know, or like, like it's like that whatever the particular click is, somehow it represents the possibility of escape from the oppressive mundanity of day to day life. And it's somehow in there there, they will get, you know, the taste of the whatever the thing is. And no matter how like these things show up everywhere, it's crazy to think it shows up obviously with music, obviously with comedy, but bike messengers. We even thought a community existed around that, but it, but it shows up.

And it's like, and within wherever there's that kind of hierarchy aggression appears. And it's the, you know, that's to me, that that's the part that's like always the same. You know what I mean? That's the, no matter, that's the water and the particular form is the ice cube tray, but you always see like this aggressive thing that appears just what you're talking about. And that's the, that's embarrassing. It's an embarrassing thing when you see someone trying to like bully their way through or up or into a thing, take it over, become it. And sometimes like the aggression, I'm sure you've seen this sometimes all the, all the aggression becomes the primary, like whatever the original thing was that goes away. And then it's just all that's really embraced is the politics, the navigating.

And then that's why sometimes you'll see in a variety of different art forms, people who seemingly have risen to the top, but you just don't know, it doesn't make sense. You know what I mean? But it's like, oh no, they just did the right steps. They didn't, you know what I'm talking about? Like there wasn't really like anything more than that. You know, they just, Yeah, I mean, you're talking about Keith or Neri, you're talking about the head of Nixxiom. Yeah.

The people that just jumped through like a certain amount of hoops. And then at that point, I mean, he never even really claimed to be a spiritual character, but people made him into one. Yeah. You know what I mean? Keith or Neri. There's cults everywhere you look that that I think back in the nineties when you were sort of, we were both really interested in cults. It wasn't a thing that most people talked about back then. But I think maybe partially we were just, there's a lot of double meanings in there.

But I think we were probably fascinated with this kind of induction, like thinking errors, the leap of faith, all the different things that come along with cult thinking. But like, you're going to not believe this, but like back in Portland, we also had this cult that was based around worshiping the Partridge family. Oh, yeah. You've heard of that? Yes. Yes. And they were violent. I think they came up from LA maybe actually, but they actually beat the shit out of people.

I mean, people will celebrate anything. They will see symbolism. Like is it in Slacker where they're talking about Papa Smurf is like Hitler and that Smurf is a secret Nazi cult. I mean, it's like the cults are everywhere you look. And dude, look at us now. 2020, it's the age of the rebirth of the cult. People are staying crazy cult nonsense everywhere you look. It's fucking amazing.

Oh, you mean QAnon? Yeah, basically. Yeah. QAnon is like the perfect, it's the perfect formula for a cult because you have such a... First of all, what's really brilliant about QAnon as far as cult shit goes is like it seems to be fairly decentralized in the sense like they have a mystery leader who just sweets ambiguous shit or puts out QDrops as they're called. And then these are up for interpretation. But there's some kind of weird like grapevine of these people where they, you know, trade ideas that all seem to be like based on the idea that the elites of the world are worshiping a Babylonian God, right? This is it.

They worship a Babylonian God. It never went away. Like the worship of Moloch, it didn't go away. It just went underground. Exactly. And so, you know, the whole thing of like eating babies or whatever turned into the consumption of Adrenochrome, which apparently reverses the aging process. And the whole structure, it sounds like things I've thought when I've been like having a really terrible trip. You know, when you're having like the great paranoid trip and you start looking around and you're like, oh my God, it's the world of the devil.

It's the world. Everything's Satanic. Everybody. Why are there pentagrams on cop cars? Why would they put pentagrams on cop cars? Man, that's the devil. You know what I mean? That's funny.

You say that because like, you know, the old saying that like, no matter if you're completely not religious or you, if you're weakened to like a really intense extent that you'll start praying, you know, that idea. It's like, that's what you're talking about. Like the spirit of these people has become so insanely weakened, right? That they're starting to see symbols everywhere. It's almost like they're like, they're dying or something. It's like their immune system, their spine is so deteriorated that they're reaching out for a hand to follow in any direction and getting scooped up by a pyramid scam. Yeah. But also, I mean, this is the, isn't it?

I think like in that world, like in that world, in the world of any cult in general, but in a world where you've sort of, you get gifts from a cult. The first gift is the gift of discovery, you know, like you become an initiate. You feel like you have hidden knowledge and that's a very powerful feeling, right? Like I know something that the world doesn't know and it's something so incredible. It will transform anyone who hears it if they believe it. That's, you know, that's huge. Now this is, it's essentially like, remember, I think Curb Your Enthusiasm had an episode that made fun of this phenomena. But there was a period when people would be like, hey, my friend has a brother who's in the CIA.

And he said, get out of LA for a couple of weeks or whatever, like something's going down. This was post September 11th. Everybody would have secret information and you'd hear it and you're like, fuck, I should get out of town. It was a version of this, what would happen when I was in elementary school. I remember one day somebody came and said, their pastor had said today, the world would end at noon. Like you're looking at the clock, like fuck, really? But you know what I mean? But it's like, so that's the first gift of the cult is the secret data like that you feel like you have and that you share with the devotees of the cult.

And then the second, I guess, gift of the cult is this kind of like hope in the sense that the world has meaning. So you get this delicious sense of like, oh my God, it all makes sense. All the suffering of the world. I get it now. Like the reason things are so fucked up is because of this Babylonian death cult consisting of billionaires and trillionaires who are extracting the life energy from the sheeple and using it to maintain eternal youth. And you know what I mean? So it's like that then in that version of reality is grim as it is. I guess for some people it's a little less grim than, you know, what I've heard, which is like, oh no, it's just you're dealing with like rolling forms of chaos energy that are being adapted to by various cobbles of people with completely disparate intent.

You know what I mean? There's no like world dominance. There's no, there's no one way that because that's the hope, right? I mean, that is kind of the dream that you get around all the rich people. You get around all the rich people of the world. The super elite, like finally you get in the great chamber where they're like rubbing adrenochrome on their tits or whatever they do. And they see you and they're like, yes, yes, there is a plan. Yes, we have it all under control.

Instead of the reality, which is like you run into most of these people and they're like, I have no idea what's happening. You know, they legitimately are confused or they're just trying to get laid. You know what I mean? There isn't anything there more than that. Exactly. Yeah. I mean, it's funny because I feel like I don't want to say that we bear some responsibility for pointing kids in the direction of occult thinking. This episode of the DTFH is sponsored by my friends at Blue Choo.

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Like we just wanted to know everything, right? There was no sort of focus on, there was never any talk between you and I about joining a cult. There was never any point where we said, let's go see if we can get in the masons. We'd peer in the window of the Masonic Temple and we'd creep away like being all freaked out, you know, on acid or whatever. But like there was never any talk of like trying to join something. And when you get back to that Tex Watson moment, you're talking about people who need a family so bad or need a structure. Or they deeply desire some sort of structuralism to come and swoop in and take away their independent, you know, their responsibilities. And something that will take care of them and whisk them away.

And we just never had any of that impulse or instinct. I mean, in terms of like looking for a family or anything, and now you fast forward to now in like this talk of cults and stuff. It's done by people who have more of an agenda. It's not just raw curiosity. You see people talking online. They're playing with it for reasons, you know what I mean? And so I feel like along the way, you know, maybe I wrote this song called Things You Do While Waiting for the Apocalypse. Like I've had kids on my Facebook walls like saying like, how did you know about the the the patterns that we're going to take over in 2020?

Because if you read the lyrics, it sounds it sounds like conspiracy theory. But there was it's that's not what I meant, you know, and I'm sure you've you've sort of sort of nudged people often to like exploring new territory. But here we are talking now like refuting a lot of this shit. I mean, we know for a fact from from like comments underneath your podcast that people think that you are like in the CIA or they think you're in these cults. Yeah, like they believe that. And I was I mean, have you ever actually refuted that? Have you ever said I'm not involved with any of the stuff? I mean, have you ever had people come up to you in person or like pursue you?

Yeah, I mean, you know, to see this is what what's interesting about like all specifically like the CIA, which I am most certain if I'm a fucking member of the CIA, they owe me some money. They haven't got a paycheck. You know what I mean? Like I'm working for free over here. Come on. But I think that the the the I just the problem of like, like, because the CIA has to is like, you know, is its own secret society has to function in secret has to function in, you know, compartment has to compartmentalize itself for just like any other corporation and within those compartments, God fucking knows what's happening. You can apply for a job if you really want to like demystify the CIA just go to their shitty website.

Why does the CIA have such a shitty website? But they also have an archive of all the we just everything they just put it all out there. And you look at it and it's like, oh, wow, man, y'all are like definitely just trying to like vacuum up all data like what we were doing, you know, and and like the CIA doesn't care where it's coming from. I just want to know what these cults and little subterranean groupings of people are up to, because I think they want to protect, you know, the United States, right? But somewhere in there, things go crazy because it's you know, it's the thing it's where it gets Philip K. Dick, where the thing starts invest like investigating itself and then you get these ridiculous feedback loops happening with the CIA. I guess I mean, who the fuck knows? I don't know. But, you know, I applied.

I did apply when I was super stoned to the web because it was funny to me because because like the first thing it says in the way people should know I'm not in the goddamn CIA is the first thing on the CIA website when you're trying to apply. They're like, don't tell anybody you're applying. You know, that's what's cool about it. Like you apply and then we'll find you. You know what I mean? Like that's what there's no like you literally have to apply. You don't know what's going to happen. I guess maybe you're just walking down the street and somebody comes up and like, hey, email.

Get in the car. It's time for your job interview. You know what I mean? And so then you become part of the CIA. I don't think I've, have you ever met a CIA agent? I don't think I've even ever met one that I'm aware of of you. Not that I know. I've met people who have tried to trick me and just that experience in itself.

I mean, usually it was like, you know, some sort of roving criminal in a grateful dead parking lot or something. Those, those people that they exploit you when you're at your most high moment. And that is the creepiest thing that usually comes to my memory. But no, yeah, I've never met any of these people. I mean, we're insignificant to them. Like, like I would be interested to get your freedom of information act. That would be interesting to see if, if there's any sort of like anyone that's ever watched you just because you, I mean, you've left the country and you, you sort of like speak to a big group of people. I don't know.

You know, once I went to get the thing where you don't have to stand in line at the airport. I can't remember what it's called like trusted flyer. You would have to go to LAX and get interrogated by somebody. And then you don't have to go like, basically you don't have to go through the same bullshit screening process that other people have to go through. And not everybody does it because you have to pay for it and it's a fucking pain in the ass. Like you had to drive to LAX and you're not flying anywhere. But I remember sitting with this, this, I don't know, security agent for my interrogation, which I've been looking forward to all day. Because I'm like, what the fuck is he going to ask me?

And he's like, had something on the screen and he said to me, so you like to make fun of the president? He did say that. He totally said that. That's amazing. And I don't know what, whether it was because like it said that I was, I was a comedian or because like something popped up like that somewhere online. I made fun of like Trump or Obama. I don't know. But it was a really chilling moment where I'm like, oh my God.

Like that's so funny. What the fuck? Like, you know, what the fuck? What are you looking at? I should have asked him like, is that on there? But I got to, it's like, you know, I got to travel. I mean, I don't look, I think, you know, more than likely there's if you have any kind of like voice at all, you've someone's probably looked into you. You know what I mean?

They just want to find out what like I'm like, it's also though, I thought the CIA only worked. In other countries, I thought they didn't invest the, I thought they were foreign like FBI would investigate the FBI investigates domestic people. The CIA investigates shit. The CIA are the people who like, you know, because this is to me the really thrilling. You don't sound like you're in the CIA. You sound like you don't even know anything about government structures. No, I'm not in the fucking CIA. I mean, honestly, I went, I went on Rogan and was like, we were, I was talking about how I had gotten stoned and applied to the CIA.

And we're just laughing about it. And then on my, on my, on my subreddit, someone who was clearly very smart wrote this thing about, hey, I just want to say, I know Duncan was talking about the CIA on Joe Rogan. A lot of what they were saying is completely wrong. And I just wanted to put out here more of what the CIA is about. And I was looking at like, oh my God, that's the fucking CIA and they're recruiting. You know what I mean? Like it was like, it was so funny because it was, and it was really intelligent, boring, dry. You know what I mean?

A long sort of like list of shit about other countries. And I skimmed it and was bored with it in like seconds. And I thought, oh, that's this, that's definitely the CIA and they're fucking boring. And I never in a million years want to be involved in that shit. Because I think most of them are just like, you know, surveilling like, like sex and cults of like, you know, extremists in other countries. And it just sounds really boring and not, and like, just not fun. Like it's not like born identity shit. It just seems like you just have to sit in front of a computer and like, like listen to people's phone calls.

And it's probably just incredibly boring. Yeah, there's probably people listening that don't know that there's people out there that really think you're some sort of underworld, like evil king or something. It's, I've seen it. I've seen these kids write this shit. My dear friends, we have a wonderful new sponsor, Mudwater. You thinking about getting off the old coffee train, you sick of pouring that dark black demonic brew down into your insides, leaving your insides all gooped up, splattered and acidified,

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Go to mudwater.com forward slash DTFH and use code DTFH for 15% off at checkout. That's M-U-D-W-T-R dot com forward slash D-T-F-H. Thank you Mudwater. I can only speculate that, you know, the mainstream is like this huge cruise ship. And like they just stepped off the ship on some like really hardcore Salvia trip or something that, you know, they stepped off the mainstream boat. And the first thing they do, you know, in a paranoid delusion is they start, you know, trying to decode the different things out there in the world that may symbolize something. Some sort of greater allegiance to the occult, which you, I mean, clearly, like most things in life, you're projecting all this shit, man. And like they, somehow because you're playing in the waters, these waters, you're talking about basically like off the beaten path spirituality, they just, they're suspicious of you, I guess.

And it just seems really entry level and misguided, but people take this stuff really fucking seriously. And it seems irresponsible not to make fun of those people. Well, I mean, well, I mean, yeah, it's like, I think like the what's, what's sweet is that the people is number one that you step off the cruise ship. That's a nice thing, even if you are smoking Salvia, which I don't recommend at all. But I think like where, where a lot of people get confused is that they, they, they're, oh, they're looking at human organizations, you know, it's like, you know, the, it's the CIA, the FBI, the WHO, the CDC, all these little stupid little like clusters of just business people. Not that the CDC stupid, but you know, they're looking to, they're trying, it's again, it's like, you know, one of the things that's going to happen, I think in a world where people are getting increasingly distanced from any kind of connection with the mystical is that they start idolizing the state. And like, you know what I mean? So the idolatry, the way it forms is either like a strange and embarrassing respect for the office of the president or the Supreme Court or whatever. The, you know what I mean?

It's like strange thing that is more than just like, yeah, you know, I really love that it's so great that firefighters put out fires. Like, thank God there's people who are willing to risk their lives to go into buildings and put out fucking fires because I wouldn't want to do it. Thank God. That's, that's good. You should respect firefighters, but there's this fetishistic thing that quickly turns into a kind of bizarre form of bootlicking. So like, you know, you see it in the pundits from the left and from the right where they're just like going on and on about the glories of the presidency or something. And it's really bizarre when you realize like, oh my God, that is a fanatic of a religion that consists of the state, the state and the apparatus of the state. And it's really sad because it's idolatry. And so, but, you know, I love like Alex Gray's idea of visionary art. And I love the idea that a lot of psychonauts and certainly anybody who's like a actual like mystic has, which is like, oh no, these little temporary manifestations of human intent that form as corporations or, you know, positions of power and all of this,

these, these all just fall away. These are really nothing. And if you go looking for God in these things, you all you're going to find is confusion. But, you know, I think we probably both agree that, I don't know, I think we do both agree that inspiration, maybe it doesn't, it's not really, it doesn't come from the, from, I think a lot of my inspiration comes from the realm of the occult. And a lot of my great inspiration. And a lot of the things that drive me and excite me are like contact that I've made with entities that aren't necessarily embodied and that aren't malefic at all, but rather seem to really want to help the world and like recognize the suffering of the world. And like, there's something really exciting and delightful about the idea that there is a, there is like, there are things out there that don't go to offices in the Pentagon. You know what I mean, but that have like made contact with our species and really do want to upshift the consciousness of the planet.

And I think that scares people because they're like, no, that's the devil. The devil wants to upshift the consciousness of the planet. The fucking devil wants the planet to be flourishing. The devil wants to go back to the days where people were dancing in fields, having orgies. The devil wants you to take mushrooms. The devil wants to speak for the earth. You know, that's what they think when it's like, really, it's the devil that's made, the devil is the thing that's making them scared. You know, the devil is the thing that's like making the QAnon people obsessed with like, you know, tech autocratic elite people molesting children and somehow completely ignoring the fact that the Catholic church is like, the popes have actively protected pedophiles. You know what I mean? Like, you don't hear them talking about that as much. It's that people are worshiping Malik. Meanwhile, there's an entire world religion that has as a priest class an entire swath of them that are many of them are in jail for fucking kids.

You know, but so, you know, to me, I do, I don't mind that people identify me as having some occult like, I love the occult. When people, I get, I get really defensive when people start trying to throw witches and Satanists under the bus, you know, because my encounter with them, they're always sweet. You know what I mean? So, so I do understand why people think that I just think where people are confused is they think that like, that I'm like, I don't know, you know, burning fucking weird oils or something. I'm muttering chants and shit. You know, and I, they probably think that about you too, because people have a, generally, like, they're, they're, don't, I'm sorry, I've gone on too long a ramp. But the reality is like, if you want to like understand this stuff, you're, you're not, you need to find it yourself and look into it yourself, not try to find it in other people. Like you need to get in there yourself and try to reach out to it and see if it talks to you. And then if it does, how does it talk? What language does this be? And what is it saying to you? And if, for me, most of the time I run into anything that's telling me to shut up, I know I've encountered actual evil. But anytime I run into a thing that's like telling you, no, see, go sing about love or, you know, like, don't be afraid.

That's another thing, you know, when angels make contact with people in the Bible, they always say, don't be afraid. So if you run into anything that's saying, be afraid, you're probably in the presence of something that is an angelic, you know. Yeah, seems like you've, you sort of prescribed the fact that the world's suffering from the ultimate disease of fear. But on another level, I think that stepping off the cruise ship, I think there's like an instant ego inflation. The second you, you know, you start being curious is the nature of being open and vulnerable, right? You make yourself vulnerable to let something in. And that's the moment of true beauty because you're sacrificing yourself potentially, you're not guarding yourself. And so when you open up and then you learn something, you take in information that is a pure process, you're not, you're not tainting it with confirmation bias. Then after the lesson is learned, like something new is learned, I think there's a pattern, sort of like two steps forward, one step back or something.

I think there's a pattern of ego inflation that happens where people, as soon as they learn something, want to stop learning to bathe in this new superiority they're feeling, right? Right, right. And that's an incredibly powerful pattern, so powerful that somebody's stepping off this cruise ship of the mainstream into your podcast, they're starting to play with concepts that are new. And then they kind of dig their heels back, shut down, put up their guard and say, no, no, I'm an expert on this. I can tell that you have an allegiance to the Dark Lord and you're working against us. Well, that's not remaining vulnerable, that's not staying open, that's not being curious, that's being lustful towards the logical conclusion of something you've already decided before you even became vulnerable. That's falling prey to the games of fear and that's not pursuing this great creative positive thing that we are after, you know. So I find it really amazing that you can meet very, very intelligent people that fall prey to these patterns, all sorts of insidious, weird patterns that often just seek to use views and make money off of you as an underling.

But like very smart people fall into these whirlpools of idiocy. Yeah, yeah, it's so weird and it's so sad, too. It's like, I mean, you know, it's just interesting, it's like to me, I love the version of Satanism that is depicted in those chick tracks, you know those? Oh yeah, dude, love them. Love them. And that version of Satanism, it's such a delight in the sense that it definitely presents a way out of suffering, which is like really, you have to do some ridiculous like aligning yourself with this, you know, being that for whatever reason just wants you to burn forever and hell. Like, you know, like a real basic bitch, like that version of Satan is just like so, so boring and basic. It wants to deceive you, trick you, but also during that deceiving and tricking process, you're going to be on some great drugs, you're going to be fucking so many people and your band's going to take off.

You're going to have like a little pentagram tattoos on you or whatever. And then like, inevitably your band's van goes off a sea cliff. And as you're plunging into the sea, the devil appears and is like, I got you. It's so stupid. It's so basic and weird and like, and what really sucks about it. The part to me where like, it's, it's malicious is that it is so against art. It's just is the most suppressive thing. And you know what I mean?

It's like, and talk about the gatekeepers, the very worst kind of person. And I know you've encountered this man is a person who once you've achieved any kind of success takes credit for it when they really had nothing to do with it. You know what I mean? That's the worst piece of shit. Is the person who fantasizes that they gave you like, if not for them, you wouldn't be, I've been around people like that, man. And they're, it's like, when you, I've been around people who are so noxiously narcissistic that you begin to grok that they think that you're lucky that you're around them. You know what I mean? And then they start doing these like weird, they think they're doing some kind of subtle teaching to you to improve you or something like that.

It's the exact opposite. Anytime you run into someone like you or, you know, anybody who's like legitimately cool is legitimately cool people. They don't care. You know what I mean? It's not like they don't care about you, but they're not like their ego isn't all engaged in your personal evolution. You know what I mean? But you run into the vampiric narcissist and like you realize like, oh my God, like no one's really friends with you. Everyone just kind of enters into your fucking stupid mystery school.

You know what I mean? Where you like, you're, you're, you're sort of downplayed yet rather obvious sort of observations on popular culture. Maybe they have like a, you know, maybe maybe they're a little, maybe they have a deep understanding of some style of music or some style of like film or whatever. But you just start realizing like you think, oh my God, you think you're like some high priest and you think you're sharing with me some fucking great data. Meanwhile, you know what I mean? They're all puffed up talking about like the Three Stooges is the peak of comedy. It's totally that kid that you, uh, do you remember you take like, you know, eight hits of liquid LSD and go out on the football field with some kid like that. And then they start leaking like, you know, that term that like, like serial killers and super liars, they leak information accidentally.

Yeah. Like they start leaking like this insane reverberation of like pure sad loneliness. And like, you know, they start like muttering stuff about how they just really need to get their hands on some money or like just like really crazy week, you know, tenants start coming out of them. Because they've spent so much time deluding you and it's in those moments where the older brother dies or the or the parental entity dies. You're like, God, I've spent all this time looking up to these people my whole life. I've wasted so much of my time to the point where some people don't even want to look back. They just want to keep putting stock into it because of their own weakness that they think this is the only ladder there is to climb. You know, that independence and the beauty of exploring on your own won't lead to some sort of palpable trophy.

But that's what we're trying to say. It's like, leave, you know, leave the scaffolding, leave the structuralism, go away and you will find the same beautiful thing that the Buddha found. It's there for you. But don't you know, don't fall prey to these fucking idiots, man. Yeah, man, don't fall. Because they get, I mean, it's like, that's the thing. Like, I'm, I think it's, it would be dishonest to say there isn't some like, like weird pleasure that comes when you realize that someone thinks you're in the CIA. You know what I mean?

It's funny, you know, but, but also like, it's like, you know, there's inside of me, you know, there's like, I really do think decentralization is, is like, it's one of the more important things right now. And that, that, that, you know, the more like, you got to watch out because, you know, you number one, you can't do phony unholy, which Ram Dass talks about, which is like, if you don't recognize that you like everybody on the planet has something to offer people around them, their community, like gifts you can give and like ways that you can like, you know, help people feel better. You know, just some people pretend they don't have that. And then because of that, they reduce themselves and become very unhelpful. But the other side of that is when like, you realize like people are recognizing, like you were saying earlier, that the insecurity of folks who really just want a family is so profound that they begin to centralize people

like that around them. You know what I mean? And, you know, this, like, for me, like the example of, of the way it should look is like those, those Ram Dass retreats, you know, like, you could say it was centralized. People like being around Ram Dass. It was great. He would like go out into the ocean and like rainbows would appear over his head. I saw it. It was insane.

It was beautiful. But Ram Dass was never trying to take credit for anything. You know what I mean? He was never like, this is because of me. This is, this is me. He was always talking about his guru and his guru is never trying to take credit for anything. Like there's stories of Neem Karoli Baba where people would try to write little Bibles about stuff that was happening. You ever heard that story?

Like somebody had been writing everything he said down in a book and he made them throw it away. I mean, it's, it's ironic that, you know, that's the guru has to defrag the idea of the guru constantly. But there's got to be, it's just people's need to congregate, right? They're not maybe always wanting to find something to follow so they can stay as a child. But maybe they're just naturally trying to, you know, buzz around with something that they think is beautiful and good. So then that thing being Ram Dass has to like constantly, you know, basically fracture and demystify and deconstruct the guru paradigm just so they can like stay on their own. But yeah, we're all together here and we're focused. Our eyes are on the fucking prize, dude.

Don't look at me. Yeah. Why? Yeah, that's, that's the, did I, did I tell you the thing Ram Dass said to me when I asked of you as my guru? Yeah, I think so. But say it again. He goes, yeah, but now what? And, and, and you know, like this, there's this brilliant Buddhist scholar named Bob Thurman who at one of these Ram Dass retreats was the funniest thing he gets on stage in front of these many people have come because of Ram Dass

and be here now. And the first thing he says is be here now. What does that mean? That doesn't mean anything. Be here now. Be here now. I don't know what that means. And it was the best because he broke.

He broke the idol, you know, and, and like that's the, that's the thing is like we, it's good to do that because we, you know, we just like what you're saying. It's like if we get too caught up in one person, one, whatever, it's the tent pole structure. You know, it's like anytime there's a tent pole, it's, it's fucked because like when the tent pole goes away, the whole thing falls apart. So you know what I mean? Like, yeah, I love, um, I really, really love certain musicians. You know what I mean? Like they're amazing and I'm, I'm, I feel lucky that like they create a situation where we can go and like, for lack of a better word, worship their art. You know what I mean?

Like I love that that they put them, you go, y'all put yourself on a stage and you fucking put out like incredible music and we all get a chance to adore what you're doing and you, and that's okay. You know what I mean? There's that's good. That's fine. That's like a joy. You know what I mean? Fandom and all that. And all that's wonderful.

It's like the, it's, it's irresponsible to then try to get people to think that because of this certain thing, you're like a holy person or a saint or any of that, you know, because yeah, then, then you just, it ends up becoming a mess. And all you're going to do is disappoint people. Like that's the main thing. You're just going to disappoint. People are just going to get disappointed when they realize like, oh my God, man, you're, you're, you stink. You stink. Your body stinks. You know what I mean?

That's totally the, you can always feel that if somebody's trying to protect their brand by like not opening up that kind of conversation and just trying to maintain the idea that they are some sort of holy entity. You can always feel that energy. And I feel like, like podcasting, for example, I was never supposed to podcast because like cool musicians don't do that. You know, you don't see the cool musicians like opening up for two hours of improv because it's ugly. And the idea is to actually demythologize some of this stuff and get into what is ugly and actually tell a true story. The thing that's the most redeeming, you know, is not to, not to build a brand to continually make money off people and stay in the distance. Just like the Wizard of Oz and just like what you were talking about before with QAnon, you know, not to hide. It's to, it's to reveal yourself, you know, the actual redeeming thing that we're all after the thing that, you know, I feel like the Beatles are pulling you towards this thing of goodness inside yourself.

And the Stones are just there to essentially rape you and steal your wallet. You know, but it's like, there's like, it's just, it's just reverberating there for you. But if you get caught up in that same old capitalist system, if you get caught up in that same old game, then you can, you can see people, they will leak that their mission is to hide. They'll leak that their mission is to never reveal themselves because they're terrified too. And it's not even to say that you and I aren't vulnerable. We've had, you know, countless heroes and like Ram Dass, we've looked up to them and asked if, you know, they were our guru. But it's really important to get to that phase where you become so depressed because you realize it's not going to work that way. You know, it's not going to work out.

You have to get to that phase that's totally deflating that, you know, you won't get to stay a child and you will have to become the adult. And you will have to live in the world with consequences and responsibility that you'll never be able to hide away in this fucking fantasy thing. They're telling you and selling you. God forbid, man. I mean, did I tell you that story about the Buddha when he goes to see and meets Brahman? Have you ever heard that story? Oh, tell me again. He meets God.

Basically the synopsis is the Buddha through meditation meets God. God's around all the other gods. They'll dimmy gods, you know, and so it's Brahman. And so then God sends Buddha back and then shows up in the grove and says, look, I sent you away because Buddha was going to God because to find out how to like take away the sorrows of humanity. And Brahman says to him, look, man, these other gods think I'm God just because I was the first one here. But I have no idea who made any of this. And I have. And I'm letting them believe I'm their daddy just because, you know, they need me.

But I don't know who made any of this. And I don't know how to do the human stop human suffering. Can you help me figure it out? And so that that's the best story of the disillusioned. Like, like imagine getting to God and realizing like God being like, no, I have no idea. This shit's older than me. I don't know. I have no idea.

I'm sorry. You know, like that that is the best because the moment that happens to you, you've been given all your projection. Back. You've been given the. Now it's like, now you are a participant. You know, and instead of instead of somebody who's like doing what Chogyam, Trump or Rinpoche called spiritual hitchhiking. You know what I mean? Now you're now you're in your own car.

You participate. You're in it for real. And that's beautiful. That's in that in communities of people who are doing that are lovely. You know what I mean? Because in the community, it's the interfacing between people is where the guru shows up. You know, and that's incredible. That's that's what I loved about those retreats, man.

That's where the real magic would happen where like, I remember once meeting somebody there who was the first time they come. And like, I was just chatting with her. And then we went and sat at a table. And all of a sudden the her and the person she's talking to, they, they both realize that they both have just lost children like within the last like year. You know what I mean? Like, you know, and then they both just start crying because they're comforting each other. It's that. You know what I mean?

That whatever the fuck that is, that's to me, that's the guru. That's it. And you can't put that in a bottle. You can't capture it. You can't wrap it up in something and control it because it comes when it comes and sometimes it's there. Sometimes it's not. And that that's what I love, which is why it's so dastardly when some motherfucker pretends he or she is that thing. Like it's dastardly to do that to people.

It's fucked up to do that to people. You know, that's really, really, I think as an actual sin is to do that to people. And it doesn't just happen with spiritual communities. It happens just like you're saying with bike messengers. It happens with any time you run into that motherfucker who's the hot potato. You know what I mean? It's the worst. Yeah, it's the thing like internet culture saved me and you.

I hate to give it so much credit, but the internet like it gave us a way to just reverberate what we were doing at home through this, you know, narrow window out into the world. But along with the rise of the internet came the rise of the know it all. And now we live in, you know, this ultimate hater culture. The rise of the know it all. Totally. And what what is the know it all the know it all is someone who wants to shut the conversation down at every turn as efficiently as possible to prove and have the last laugh. But that's what you're going back to those those people saying they've lost the children. It's that the healing that the creativity in that field as they bond, it's that vulnerability.

It's it's like remaining open. Like there's no know it all presence in between them. The wall is kind of lowered. So it's just as we take two steps forward and two and one step back in the sense that we have this ego inflation upon learning. We also once we get we learn from like the vulnerability learning from pain. We then tried to set up a whole fortress again so that we'll never get hurt again. Yeah. It's idiocy after we've just learned from pain.

You know, so I think there's this constant kind of sense of like, well, I get it now. So I'm done with the process. Right. But I think that the know it all wants to say they're done with the process, which obviously we know never happens. But remaining vulnerable. That's you mean that's what a great artist and what you were talking about the occult like remaining vulnerable to your own unconscious to like let it speak to you to let the world to engage with the world. Those are that's the way of you know, just like lowering the walls. Yeah.

Like it's like, yeah, because really whatever the fucking thing is that you're like, you know, you could you can you're whatever the medals are that you're jingling on your little bike messenger shirt or whatever or whatever you're giving yourself medals for there. That's over now. Like you might have gotten a million awards. Those are gone now. I mean, that was like what was always so awesome about stand up comedy is saying like you're only as good as your last set. It's like, you know, whatever the fuck happened before this, it's gone. And you I know what you mean that that instinct to like hold on to anything. God damn it.

Please just give me one little place to like really this is a God here. And it's not I know you also I think there is something to be said for a little basking. You know what I mean? It's cool to like bask for a second. But then sure as fuck that basking turns into like tanning and the tanning turns into like some cancerous activity that's giving you a melanoma because you've been laying under some dumb fucking heating light that your ego invented. Because like, you know what I mean? Like whatever it is, it's really quite depressing. When you run and think it's like, I don't think basking is the is the word for like feeling good about your connection to the universe.

I think it's I mean, not ticker. I don't think that's what you were saying, but like, I think that what feels good is true spiritual confidence, like knowing that you are in touch with something. And feeling that like even after, you know, some sort of match or set or concert or something that like if you had to go back out there and do it again, you could do it even better. You know what I mean? Like there's never any sense of being tired. There's never any sense that you want to give in and give up and like cash it in and bask. It's really the feeling like victory is just really actually knowing that you can perform at your best and being in touch with your skills and not being, you know, tired and kind of ready to sell it all to some sort of, you know, brand pursuit or making money off of people. It's like about getting back in the ring.

That's that. Yes, I got to live. Yeah, man. That's it. That is it. It's that is what you and that's that's thing. Once you got that because it God doesn't hurt when that goes away. When you get lost in the bean counting and then you're just like your music.

I don't know this. Maybe this doesn't even happen to you. But like for me, that's one of the most grim things is when I'm like, you know, like right now I'm in a good place creatively. And like any time I walk into my studio and I look at like my synths or the mug or like my microphone, I'm excited, you know, because like, oh, man, I'm going to make. I don't know what I'm going to make or make something, you know, and it's a joy. But when like, because, you know, that's it. You won't you're not going to get anything better than that. You won't.

There's nothing in the world is it's it's going to that's going to replace that certainly not fucking money. You know, it's that not because that's that's why I was talking about the angels, you know, because it's like that that thing is bigger than the world. It cuts through the world or it's the world rests on it or it's the ground of all things. And it's like, I don't mean that in a pretentious way like I'm in contact with the ground of all things. There's nothing that special about it. You know, it's like my my also my two year old is in contact with the ground of all things. You know, like when he's playing in the creek, he's fully absorbed in the water and the creek and that's it. He's not thinking like if I do a good job in the creek, I'm going to get maybe I'll get a raise, a toddler raise.

You know, it's like, yeah, he's in the creek and he loves it and he's playing and then he goes and that's it. You know, and that that yeah, that to me, that relationship, that connection cuts through all the bullshit and cuts through all of it. I think it's very difficult for all these motherfuckers. These seductive little fucking vampire Charismatics out there who like have like a sad cult of like, you know, depressed record collectors around them or whatever the fuck they're into. You know what I mean? I think like once you make that contact, your immune system won't tolerate that shit. You know, that's it. You know, you're not talking about like that thing when I was a kid, which was like, man, maybe I can get boy, I sure hope I get a smile from Jean.

You know, whoever the coolest person in your mind was that's that's gone now. That's mostly gone. Not to say like, if you know, if like, if like, there's still like, I have idols, I idolize Stephen King. You know what I mean? I saw idols, but it's mostly gone now. Totally. I mean, I think the the truest, purest form of of actual deflation, actual sadness is when you walk into your room, your life, look at your instruments, things like that. And you look at your life and you you realize you kind of you're too tired.

You don't want to be present for it. You don't want to participate in your own life, right? Yeah. And it's at that point, you know, you can. You can wait in those waters for a bit, but then it's time to to do whatever it takes, whatever ritual, whatever, you know, sacrificial task it takes to get back to that place where you actually want to live your life again. That's, you know, that's you're obligated to find that way to value this thing, because it's not going to be going much longer, you know. Yeah. Well, that I mean, yeah, it's like, exactly.

That's it. And that's rebellion. And that's the thing where you just shake off all the all whatever it is. That's why this is why I love like, like Christianity is why I love Buddhism. This is why I love these things is because not not because of like some symbolic figure or anything, but because they really do fly in the face of all hierarchical power structures that want to give you a sense that you're trapped. I love that man. That to me is just such a joy. Even if you don't know how to get out of whatever your specific condition is, it's like just that like sparkling knowledge that there is a way out.

It won't last. You will. There is like, you're going to see the shore. That is that. I don't know how to express it, but to me, that's just a delight because it really fucks up the whole game of people who are like, depending on you, thinking that that you're a necessary component in their path to happiness. It's true. It's like even just a Christian hymn is when it's saying, you know, when it's saying and it reverberates in a church, the feeling that you're, I feel like is intended is inclusion, you know, come into the house of the Lord, you know, you deserve to be here. Like we, we include you and you can, you know, step into this dimension of love, which is the opposite of everybody trying to exclude you out in the world in the cold, hard capitalist world.

Everybody's trying to push you out of the door, right? Yeah. So yeah, it's that same spirit that where you know there is good. I mean, both of us dabbled with things, all sorts of things, but you know, we're lucky to feel that we know the path back to that place. Yeah. Yeah. That place, that place. And that is that there.

That is what God was. I was just reading this great quote. I can't remember who said it. Maybe it was a Dalai Lama, some famous Buddhist, but it was saying like, no matter what the religion is, no matter what, if like a Christian is like through Christianity experiencing like transcendent bliss. That's Buddha. That's Buddhism. Buddhism isn't a thing like the, you know what I mean? It's not like a brand.

It's like a state of consciousness. It's this like, it's that, I don't know. It's like when you're, you know, something like just when you're hanging out with people you love and you feel like you're warming your hand on like a fire. It's, it's jolly. It's cheery. It's that, that it's not some austere thing. Like I used to think it's not, you know what I mean? Like it's not, it's not a big deal anymore than it's a big deal to be like enjoying a nice day with your friends.

Do you know what I'm saying? It's like, it's the, that's another thing that these motherfuckers do is they, they produce this path that's long and arduous and maybe it is. But like basically like the Keith Rainier, like God Jesus Christ, that guy created like a maze of initiation that ended within branding his initials on your pussy. Like, you know what I mean? Like he created like a thousand stupid initiatory rituals that just ended up exactly where any basic, boring, horny fucking dude. He's like a little fucking sick. Would want to be, you know, my dream would be to shave a girl's pussy and just put my initials on it. It's just not even the saddest, weirdest redneck on the beat of Daytona.

Just like during the ultimate possible trophy. What the fuck was that? Holy shit. It's the supposed fucked up thing. Like you get, like that's what, and that's what I've heard with like Scientology is that the last thing is you get a briefcase, they open it up. In the briefcase, it's like some weird shit Elrond Hubbard wrote. It's like, doesn't make any sense in it. Like either it is, but by then you've spent so much money that you make it work.

So it's like when they're getting branded and exactly like you said, it's like they're just, they're no different than somebody who like signed a release for girls gone wild. You know what I mean? It's like you're, yeah, you just basically ended up in Keith Rainier's version of girls gone wild. Vanguard was really just a dude who was like, hey man, let's do tequila shots. Let's have a three way. But your brain is like, but you are the van. You're my, you're my, what do they call him? My Vanguard.

Yeah. You're my Vanguard, but they had other names for it. What did he call him? My Keith, Keith-ness or something. Gross. Anyway, the point is, it's like, yeah. And who do you have to blame? Who do you have to blame when you find yourself feeling a brand with Keith Rainier's initials going over your pussy?

Who do you have to blame when your girlfriend who you got into the cult or your wife comes back home with a band of John that's got Keith Rainier's initials? Is it Keith Rainier you have to blame? Or is it the fact that you decided to be an idolater? I don't think there's a single moment in either of those documentaries where any of those people take responsibility. I can't remember a single moment where any of them say, yo, I fucked up. It's insane. The whole, the documentary, the vow and seduced, have you seen seduced yet? No.

Oh, you'll just be screaming at the television every five minutes. The whole thing is based on how, like, they were just duped. They were tricked. And yet they are also acting as masters to their own slaves. Exactly. But they all play innocent and it's so, so sad. I mean, it's a testament to people's deep lust to escape their own responsibility in life, to get underneath someone else that will be responsible for everything. It's so fucking sick, but I couldn't turn away because I guess I just wanted to be angry about that.

That is, to me, that's like the part where, like, that's the main thing. Like, these motherfuckers, it's not just that they were, like, vacuumed up into a cult. It's that they also let themselves be little mini cult leaders and had their own tyrannical bullshit. And in a weird way, some of them are replicating it still. I mean, that's the weird thing is, like, there's now they're, like, turning themselves into, like, survivors of a cult. But, I mean... Oh, exactly. There's even shots of that Nicki girl outside of the courthouse now where she looks just like the Manson girl.

She still follows Keith. She's still outside the prison dancing around. I've seen this new video where the followers that still exist are dancing outside of Keith's prison window. Is that true? Yeah. Look it up. It's a fucking video that they published of themselves, like, frolicking through the prison parking lot. God, that's awesome, dude.

It's still happening. Yeah. It's so crazy. I think that's why the show is so popular, because a lot of people, you know, didn't grow up maybe quite as obsessed with the Manson families we were. But, like, that was such a big deal back then, man. Like, Helter Skelter being in your high school library was like, that was... What are you going to check out over that? That's the book you're going to go check out of the library, man.

Dude, I don't know why people aren't able to just say, yeah, I got, like, completely tricked. Like, I got taken in. I was dumb. Like, I just, like, you know, I just wanted to meet God, you know, and, like, I was lazy, so I let this guy be God for a second. It's really gross. And then, you know what I mean? Like, that, to me, is, like, it would be such a wonderful moment to see some of these fucking, like, Trump idolaters. To see, like, one of these...

Like, imagine if one night, Tucker Carlson was like, oh, you guys, I just, you know what? I fell for it. I can't believe it. I fell for it. I decided, like, some real estate dude was, like, Abraham Lincoln, and, yeah, it was a mistake. That would be such a delight. You know what I mean? It would make them so much more powerful, too.

You would be like, wow. I think it's structured so that people are put in a position to try to prey on each other. Right? Like, your friend isn't going to come to you and say, like, yo, dude, I tried the publisher's Clearinghouse with Ed McMahon on the front and stuff, and, like, it didn't work out for me. Like, nobody says that. They try to sell you the Avon stuff. They try to sell you the shit.

Yeah. It's weird, right? Like, yeah, it's so bizarre. I mean, just, like, you can end up in a shitty relationship, and you can be like, yeah, I just made a mistake that I fucked up. I was just, I didn't, I was too, I didn't really see what was happening there, and it just kept going on and on. And, but somehow with cults, man, people just don't want to, they just don't want to give

up. I get it, though. I get it. I mean, god damn it, I get it. There is something really sad when you realize you've just, there's not much of a difference between you and, like, a dog that you see humping someone's leg at a party. But that, but that sad moment is, like, the essential pivot point into adulthood. Like, you have to be let down like that.

You can't remain in that place that basically the government or everybody's trying to put you in. They're trying to, you know, you can't, like, kill your neighbor in the ghetto because you're both so frustrated. You have to help lift each other. There's like this really pathetic video game that I play when I'm bored, and if you're in a fast car and you drive away from all the people chasing you, there's a point at which they'll all just turn on each other and kill each other because they're so frustrated

they can't get to you. That's what game. That's awesome. I don't want to say what game it is, but the, but I mean, that is definitely a metaphor for a level of like the game for power, right? You know, it's, it's the, it's the obsession with winning, right? Yeah. And like at some point you have to just let it go, you know, you just have to let someone

else fucking win and like not keep clawing at the man next to you, you know, just to try to get ahead. And that is, yeah, that's going to be a moment of great sadness, but you need to go there, man, the first day of the rest of your fucking life. Embarrassment too. Sadness and embarrassment. You, you like, you know, man, sometimes like I'll just end up in the woods with, with my kid and you just realized like, yeah, this is pretty much it.

Like this is, this is a billion times better than anything that the work that you're going to get from like the, like being a careerist or from anything. Like this is the, just you're not going to get, nothing's going to surpass like taking a walk and then you go and, and, and walking in a creek with this two year old. You know what I mean? And, and that is it for me. Some like that's a, that's a weird moment because you're like, well, I could have done this or I could have done this sooner.

You know, like maybe, maybe that's okay. You can, that's where you should bask. Maybe there is a basking in that because that you are being here now. You're finally letting yourself be there. You know. Yeah. But I mean that, I think for a lot of people that's, that's really, I think that could be a little bit, a dismay, even though it's nothing special.

It's like the same shit you hear all the time. Alan Watts talks about it all the time. The Dowdy Ching talks about it all the time. Pretty much everybody talks about it, which is like, oh yeah, you do go ahead and do like all the human pursuit stuff, but you're not going to do better than nature. You do, you could become like the great emperor of planet earth and you could have like a fucking fanny pack full of ladrinochrome or whatever the fuck slurping it back into the whole, the nations of the world are bowing to you, but you're

not going to do better than a river. You can't become more noble than like a basic pine tree. You know what I mean? No matter how much silk or whatever the fuck you're wearing is the great antichrist leader. And isn't that the ultimate frustration of those people? You know, like when you look at Trump or when you look at any autocrat or when you look at anybody, they all seem kind of collapsed in because they know

the great secret. That's the problem, right? They know the great secret. They know that they are not that great. And that that's the ultimate conspiracy because they have all these fucking people worshiping them. Do you think, you know, like in the core of it, like when, yeah, it doesn't win when they, you know, pull the curtain back on the Wizard of Oz.

Is he particularly, does he have a look of kind of sadness like that? Yeah. Yeah. It's like, I mean, Keith, Keith Ranieri, he didn't even, he didn't even plan out like his vices. He didn't even seem like he knew he was like arbitrary. Like, well, this one seems like she'll let me put her in a cage. He didn't even seem like he was actually experiencing that much private secret

joy, you know? No, no, he just was kind of like, you know, he just, he reminds me of like a horny, like sort of dude who played it in a, like in who was in band and high school or something and then like made a couple of brilliant starcraft. Yeah. Yeah. Just kind of like, then just somehow got caught in a bizarre updraft and didn't let it stop.

See, that's the thing, man. If I'm at somebody's house and they have a leg humping dog, it's already annoying, but I recall a time when I was at someone's house and they let the dog hump their leg. Like they didn't stop it. They let it go on too long and you're like, no, you got it. Like that's, that's bestiality. Like you, the dog humps, you push the dog away.

Like, don't know. You don't sit there with your leg outstretched, letting some dog just fuck your leg until it has some like canine orgasm. And that's what these cult leaders are doing ultimate metaphor. Don't let them hump your leg. Like, you know, cause like you're, well, you're not helping yourself. You're going to get dog cum all over your genes and you're sure as fuck not helping the dog who deserves to fuck something more than a leg.

You know, I think that's the main thing is like, you should always be pushing people off your great moralist. Don't let them hump your leg. No, I think, you know, usually we get into pretty like emotional and historical stuff, but today I think it's important to, there's like a social service to like just saying like, like some of this, this new independent thinking, this new breed of people who are doing their research and essentially just like affirming their confirmation

bias and living off of means. I mean, there's just, we have a responsibility to as now the elder kids or whatever, just to just call out some of the bullshit. So it just seemed like important to do over two hours of just like recontextualizing instead of just people being able to make someone like you into anything they want and give you some allegiance you don't have. I mean, I just think it's really clear that you're really just fighting

for love and something very simple, something very positive. Yeah. And I'm, and if anyone listening to this is in the CIA, I'm not opposed to joining. How do you not troll? How do you not troll? I would join the CIA. Fuck it.

What's the big deal? I'm 46 man. I'd like to, I want to see the thing. You think they would? Yeah, they would. What's the big benefit of, of inducting you in the CIA? Yeah, I don't think there's any. I think it would be really bad for the CIA.

I'm yappy. I can't be able to keep a secret. Like you think I'd be able to not talk about like an alien artifact? Well, the second day you've had too many Apple teenies and you're just giving away everything. Yeah, there's no fucking way that like I could find out about alien artifacts or anything like that of that nature. I guess if it was as far as under the threat of death, I guess

if they're like, look, you want to see it? It's an alien casket. We found it in, you know, Arizona 20 years ago. It'll evitates. We can't figure it out. I don't know. If you tell anybody about this, I'm going to kill you and your family.

I would not tell. So I guess that you'd have like, you wouldn't get past like the first inhalation of your first joint. You'd be like, dude, craziest thing. You're right. You're right. You know, I would see you and I'd be like, Emil, turn your phone off. I saw a fucking alien artifact and I'm in the CIA and that's the

last thing I would say before you just see a red dot on my forehead. Emil, I love you, man. Thanks for doing the show. It's been too long. Yeah, yeah, for sure. We'll do it sooner. Maybe next week. Yeah.

Yeah, dude, and I can't wait to see it. You'll be here soon. Yeah. Bye. Love ya. Love ya. That was Emil Amos. Everybody make sure you pick up his new album raw and is figured from

thrill jockey records and a big thank you to our sponsors for supporting the DTFH and thank you for listening. I'll see you soon. Hare Krishna. 92% of households that joined Peloton early in the year are still active a year later because of cycling. We also have a treadmill and Peloton guide guide. The thing that counts your reps.

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