Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 412: Douglas Rushkoff

Episode Date: December 5, 2020

Douglas Rushkoff, one of MIT's top 10 most influential intellectuals in the world, joins the DTFH! You can learn more about Douglas and find his books on his site. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Purple - Visit Purple.com/Duncan10 and use promo code DUNCAN10 for $200 Off any mattress order of $1500 or more! FightCamp - Visit joinfightcamp.com/duncan to try Fight Camp FREE for 30 days! ExpressVPN - Visit expressVPN.com/duncan and get an extra 3 months FREE when you buy a 1 year package.

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Now a still monolith that was recently discovered in the American desert has now disappeared as mysteriously as it appeared. The monolith was first found earlier this month by rangers in the Utah desert during a wildlife survey. No one officially knows who created the object of what it was. Monolith. A large single upright block of stone. Greetings friends, it is I.D. Trussell. This is the Ducket Trussell family.

Our podcast, that song you just heard was called Mysteries of the Monolith. It's from Gerard Rune's new album. Monolith Songs, which is going to be available on Magna Rex records in July. Today has been one of my favorite days of all time. So I'm going to bore you with it. I woke up early with the baby. Made breakfast for him. Grits in this incredible banana pancake recipe that I found on a diet app because I want to lose weight.

It's you basically take two eggs and one banana and you mix them together. And then you use olive oil. I think I'm not supposed to use that oil and you cook the pancakes. I think this is essentially a crepe, but I haven't taken the time to look up crepe recipes. And then you add yogurt and blueberries to it. So I made these banana pancakes and grits for forest and in all my life, I can't think of much that is more pleasing than listening to your kid eat food and in between bites say things like yummy, yummy, yummy.

I don't know. All my years of hedonism, all the money spent on a variety of psychotropic cocktails to induce pleasant states of consciousness, nothing compares to just something as simple as that. And then I came to the studio and I had one of the greatest conversations maybe I've ever had with today's guest, Douglas Rushkoff. All thanks to Conor Abib who connected us. It's a great conversation you're about to hear. Rushkoff is a genius and you're about to find out why.

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something that has happened so that y'all hear my side of the story. I'm sure by now you've heard that listeners of the DTFH have been experiencing a variety of attacks from birds and small animals. Many of our listeners have sustained pretty severe wounds, beak wounds, from flocks of crows coming out of nowhere, as I'm told, and just falling upon them, attacking them. They go for the eyes, apparently. Fortunately, the people who were attacked by these flocks were wearing glasses or covered

their eyes so that they weren't blinded. They go for the nipples. I didn't know this about crow attacks, but if they can get through your shirt, they're going to try to rip your nipple off your chest. They use it for their nests. They feed their youngs with it. Here's what I know. These attacks are happening to listeners of this podcast, and I've had my research team

look into these attacks, the squirrel attacks that happen in Portugal. Horrible, horrible. Somebody lost a pinky to that, to three squirrels who apparently were passing it among each other, not eating it, but just weirdly passing it to each other, holding it in their mouths and giving it to the next squirrel. Fucked up. The weasels in Sweden, ferrets, whatever you want to call them, I guess some ferrets made their way out of an aquarium and did some damage to the back of a listener's neck.

Stitches. What they all have in common is that they weren't subscribers to my Patreon, which you can find at patreon.com forward slash DTFH, and this is not some veiled threat. I am not orchestrating these animal attacks. I'm not using sonic beams to send random packs of small animals after my listeners. That would be horrible. That would be horrible. I love all my listeners, not just the folks who have subscribed to my Patreon.

And I have a team of lawyers, if anybody wants to come at me and try to be fancy and say that I had anything to do with any of these attacks, I didn't. But I will tell you what every single person subscribed to my Patreon has not sustained any attack from any small animal in the last many months. And that is a kind of assurance, I guess all of you can have, that if you subscribe to my Patreon, not only will you have access to commercial free episodes of the DTFH, not only will you be able to join us three times a week for our Tuesday group meditation journey into boredom, our Wednesday book club where right now we're reading Gris for the Mill or

our Friday family gatherings, not only will you have instant access to our massive ever-growing library of content, not only will you be able to experience the association of your family on our Patreon Discord server, but you will protect yourself from the possibility that one day while you walk outside to go to your car, you suddenly get attacked mercilessly by animals that up until that point you probably thought were cute. And I can't guarantee that the animal attacks aren't going to start happening with bigger animals, bears, pit bulls, alligators. There's a lot of big animals out there folks, a lot of big animals, and if someone had a way to control them, you know, I'm sorry. I've just

been reading this book, How to Create a Successful Podcast, and like the first rule is in the first five minutes of your podcast, try to threaten your audience and terrify them into joining your Patreon. If you guys don't join the Patreon, it's fine with me. I'm just happy that you listen. And I got to tell you, podcasting, it's my favorite thing to do on the planet, because I get to have conversations with people I normally would never have a chance to interact with. Douglas Rushkoff has been named one of the world's 10 most influential intellectuals by MIT, and they meant it. He is brilliant. He's written a plethora of books. Is that how you say it? Plethora? Plethora. That sounds like somebody who fights dinosaurs in

the ancient times. He's written many great books. I wasn't named one of the top intellectuals by MIT. I can't pronounce plethora. Plethora? I'm not going to look it up. Regardless, thanks to Connor Habib, I connected with Mr. Rushkoff, and we had the conversation that you're about to hear. Definitely check out his book, Team Human. It's amazing. Not only is he a great philosopher, he's a really good writer. All right, everybody, strap in, and welcome to the DTFH, the great Douglas Rushkoff. Douglas Rushkoff. Welcome to the DTFH. Douglas Rushkoff, thank you so much for being here. Do you want me to call you Doug or Douglas? How do people refer to you? Douglas is kind of more fun for me. Okay, Douglas it is. Awesome. Douglas it is.

Well, okay, so I'm just going to start off with this beautiful passage from your book, Team Human. We're moving from one understanding of our place in things to another. The renaissance may have brought us from tribal to the individual, but our current renaissance is bringing us from individualism to something else. We're discovering a collective sensibility that's more dimensional and participatory than the unconsciously formed communities of the past. We had to pass through the stage of individualism in order to get there. Wow, this is the best, and as you know, the weird thing about the experience of the world right now, I think is that maybe more people than would admit it have this odd sense that we are on the precipice,

not of some catastrophic thing, but some kind of renaissance, and yet I had no way to really make sense of that until I started reading this chapter in your book and I wonder if you could go deeper into it for us. I mean sure, I mean it happens in a way the easiest way to understand it is how it happens in a human being. You know, a baby is born and it thinks it's one with its mother, and that's kind of like our kind of more original indigenous first people stage, you know, one with the planet, we're just part of this bigger mother organism, and then you kind of develop your sense of separateness. Oh, that's my mom and I'm me, you know, and you get your terrible twos and threes. No, no, no, I'm a part, I have my ego, I'm something, it's about me, me, me, me, me, me,

and you see the kid all selfish and my toy and give me this, you know, and all that until they get to be about adolescent, and then they're like, ooh, look at those other people over there, kind of want to touch them and, you know, get them inside them and them inside me, so you want to break down your ego to then become a real adult, an intimate adult, and I feel like that's kind of where we are as a society now is we had our kind of tribal phase, then we moved through the Renaissance and the Renaissance, you know, it was both bad and good, you know, the good thing is that we invented really or reinvented the individual, the Renaissance is the rebirth, that's what the word means, the rebirth of old ideas in a new context, so we

rebirthed all those ancient Greek notions of the individual and, you know, and the central state and the authority and all, but the Vitruvian man, you know, that image of that guy standing in like a cross or an X, sort of this perfect human individual, that's when we got the individual, and all the Renaissance inventions were really based on the individual perspective, you know, we got the printing press, so everybody got their own Bible and could read it and interpret it individually, we got Protestantism, which is about your individual salvation, we got perspective painting, which is about this is how this looks from a particular point of view, you know, so all of these things, it was a new dimension that each person has their own perspective and it got us to

the enlightenment and one man, one vote and individual rights and beautiful stuff, but now we're in a place where it's like, wow, we've really pushed this cult of individual thing a bit too far, right, you know, we have you, you're the one, you deserve a break today, it's the me generation, it's about you, because the consumerism loves individuals because we don't want, you know, we don't want you sharing a lawn mower with your neighbor, we want you get your own lawn mower and they get their own lawn mower and do more jobs and more stuff and individual, individual, but now we're like, we're realizing, wait a minute, and I do believe, and this is sort of the way I looked at the rise of the internet and digital technology back in the late 80s and early 90s, I was like,

oh wow, this is going to be the next Renaissance, the last Renaissance we got perspective painting, this Renaissance we get fractals and holographs, you know, the last one we got circumnavigation of the globe, this one we orbit the globe from space, you know, the last one we got the printing press, this one we get the internet and the computer, you know, so each of the things that we got, you know, are kind of the new levels of dimensionality, where the last one we got the individual, this one we get this kind of fractal collective multiplicity kind of rave like collective point of view and as a result, the things that get rebirthed are the opposite of what got rebirthed last time in the last Renaissance, we got the corporation, the chartered monopoly, we got

central currency, we got colonial powers and expansion and exponentialism and linear thinking, this one, we're going to get the opposite and we are, we're getting all those medieval things that got repressed, witchcraft and women and craft beers and hands on and, you know, occultism and all these new, the I Ching, I mean, the sensibilities that were really repressed the last time out end up rebirthed now, so, assuming we can make it through this strange labor that we're in, I'm really hopeful about what this new Renaissance can bring. The book did a great job in helping me really understand how what you call, I'm assuming you invented the term singular, singularitists, what are we, what are they called?

Dudes, these dudes, I mean, I don't know, singularitists are singularitans. Ciglaritans. Yeah, I mean, the people, yeah, who believe in the singularity, but that was the impetus for the book. I was on a panel with this guy, you know, one of these famous dudes who thinks he's going to upload his consciousness to a chip. Yes. And he was saying, you know, that, that human beings have to accept that we're going to be replaced by the machines, that evolution is the journey of information towards more complex states. So it went from, you know, atoms to molecules to organelles to organisms to human to society,

and now computers are better at information than we are, so we should just pass the evolutionary torch to them and accept our inevitable decline and extinction. And I was like, no, dude, this is, this is terrible, you know, there's, there's a place for humans in the digital future, you know, human beings can do stuff that computers can't, we can get in the soft squishy places between stuff, not just ones and zeros, but what's in between a human being, you know, can watch a David Lynch movie and, and not understand what it meant and still experience that as pleasure, right? That's beautiful. We could sustain paradox over time. Human beings deserve a place. And he said, oh, Rushkoff, you're just saying that because you're human, right?

Like it's, like it's hubris. So that's when I said, fine, guilty. I'm on team human. Yes. I love it. May I just, I just wanted to connect to the Renaissance aspect of it and what this cleared a lot of cobwebs out of my head because in my sort of, I don't know, thinking about the Renaissance and wondering what it could be, there was some of that in there. This idea of like, well, maybe the Renaissance is McKenna's end of time. Maybe it's the invention of a time machine. Maybe it's the some, something so astounding that it completely collapses all of civilization. And I don't think I realized what an empty aspiration that was and what a, a kind of complete den, just denouncement of all the beauty in the world. What you're saying,

sustaining paradox over time. It's such a beautiful thing about humans and humans, then we're, we're fine. But this, this transhumanist, and I don't want to bash transhumanist too much, because there's things that I think are hopefully going to be part of the and beautiful in that vision too. Yeah, beautiful. But still, you know, once I did, I had a conversation with an author, Mirabai Starr, and she pointed out how in certain ways of thinking in the spiritual community, specifically those that involved in personalism or the complete sort of merging of the identity into all things are actually weirdly misogynistic in the sense that they kind of in those states of consciousness, how are you going to be a mom? Like, you know, it's a dude thing to be like,

you know what I mean? I'm going to go, I'm going to put myself in a chip, you raise the baby, I'll be in the chip, you know what I mean? Totally. It's another version of the dudes, you know, throwing frisbee on the beach while the women were back, you know, cleaning their pot, right? Yeah. You know, it's a, it's like, yeah, y'all do your whatever your girls stuff. I'll be in the web, baby. See you later. I don't need this body. And it's really, and that's why, you know, that your book got me on Team Human, help me remember, oh yeah, that is what matters. And I'm a dad. Are you a, do you have kids yet? Yeah. Yeah, I got a 15 year old daughter. I know it brings you back to the ground in a real way. It sure does. It sure does. But I want it just

because in your, the path, the, when you were writing about the Renaissance, you, you mentioned, and I didn't know this. So I don't even know why I'm thinking about a future Renaissance when I barely know the past Renaissance, but you were talking about going from perspective 2D to 3D. And that made me think, well, maybe it's not holograms or VR. Do you ever speculate that it could be a new way that we look at time? Well, it's gotta be, right? I mean, in the end, it has to be. That would be the, that would be the fourth dimension. I ended up writing this other book before this called Present Shock, where I was looking at the collapse of time in this kind of, that the always on internet thing, the fact that we can live in the state of, you know,

emergency interruption that only 911 operators or whatever used to have to endure. Now we do it, you know, just as a matter of course, notifications and all that. And we have these sort of multiple instances of ourselves existing simultaneously, like there's your Twitter self is still there, even though we're talking here. God knows, somebody might right now be reacting to something you said yesterday on Twitter, and you're like in the middle of getting canceled without even feeling it because you're not there. So it's scary, right? It's all that. So when you can't live in more than one place at the same time, yet we're sort of doing that. So it feels like it is the beginning of that, of that thing of, if you're on more than one timeline, then you're kind of in

the beginnings of time travel. Whoa. Yeah, like then in this, maybe, like the QAnon stuff, the, or the, or just the simple like seeming bifurcation of reality between two main political factions, where you can jump to one news network and see one version of reality, jump to the other one and a completely different version of reality is happening. One version pandemic, wear a mask, we're all going to die. This is, this is the, the great kid, the other one, it's like, well, it's bad, but we need to relax a little bit because it's not that bad. And it's like, we're, it is weird. And if two people could have full lifetimes on this planet at the same time, you'd experience those two different narratives, right? He lived in two

different, it's like the Philip K. Dick sort of man in the high tower. It's like, it all depends which show you're watching, right? Yes. And then this, this, you know, as I do love conspiracy theories and honestly, I feel a bit bummed that the conspiracy universe has been, you know, infected with Trumpism and with like, it's been sort of hijacked, if you ask me, I mean, I mean, I love it too. I love it. I don't object to any of the content really of almost any conspiracy theory, even the ones that, you know, have, have, have people like me, like sucking the blood out of children, whatever, you know, go for it, think it, but, but the problem is with this one, with the QAnon one, it got, it's being accepted literally rather than as this metaphor. And as a metaphor,

I mean, it's true, basically, the working class is being infantilized and fucked in the ass, right? By the neoliberal elite, right? So I get it. They are like abused children, not being treated with, with, with respect or proper care by their guardians. So I get it, but it's not real. They're not actual. Hillary Clinton is not taking nine year old girls and sucking the adrenochrome out of their brains. It feels like it though. And that, and we lose access to that, to that metaphor, once we, once we grind it down into, into literal sense. That is wild. Yeah. That's, and maybe that's where the sort of the resonance, the sense that this is real is happening because, yeah, I get it. On one level, it's real on another level. Give me a break.

I mean, if there was adrenochrome out there by now, we would have heard of it for sure. Like, right now we'd be having this conversation feeling bad because inside we'd be like, well, you know, there is adrenochrome. I've never encountered it, heard of it, seen it. We've both been to burning, man. It's not there. No, we would have done this anywhere. It would have either been there or I would be able to find it with my tour browser on the dark web, right? It doesn't show up. If I could get DMT vape pens, I'd be able to get adrenochrome, right? Exactly. Yeah. If you can get literally stacks of cocaine bricks off the dark web, you can probably get adrenochrome. But this, you know, this sort of weird,

get-soid split of default reality between various people is really curious and seems to be weirdly, I don't know. I don't get into astrology that much, but there's this conjunction that's happening. Do you know about this? It's coming up. Yeah. The real age of Aquarius is finally going to hit like in the next few weeks. Yeah. I mean, there's that. I look at, I mean, I guess because I'm more of a media theorist, I tend to look at it as the first effects of the digital media environment, you know, that there's this, well, on the one hand, digital media environment is so much about memory. Everything's happening, you know, everything's happening in memory the way we're looking at it. But moreover, it's like we relate to our media and our stories more as

programs. So it's like, I'm, I'm on, almost like a drug, I'm on QAnon. What are you on? Oh, I'm on MSNBC. And so it's like, I'm going to let Morning Joe program me. And, you know, and it's, it's this sense, I wrote this other book, Program or Be Programmed, which is kind of about that, that in a digital age, your media programs you and then your behaviors and your attitudes, it's like we, it's not that the algorithms are going to get us, it's that we are treating ourselves like algorithms, not like human beings. So we get certain programming and then, you know, and, and the way, the way I'm judging if it's a good program or not is, does it make the person hard and ideological or does it make them soft and squishy and open? Like whatever you're on,

I want to be on that, right? You're soft and squishy and open. You, you are capable, no matter how weird your guest, almost in an art bell-like way, you can kind of try on what they're saying. Oh, you let it run through you, but you don't grab onto it, you know, and that's the thing. Some of these programs, they don't let, they don't let us process them. They try to, they try to nest inside us and become our permanent program. And that's, that's the fucked up part. The cookies. That, you know, it's, it is, it's cookies. Yeah. Right there. Yeah. I'll clear your cash. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I want to thank Storyworth for sponsoring this episode of DTFH. Storyworth is one of the coolest,

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It's not brain lingerie. It's mesh. Or is it lace? I like lace. It's like lace. Neural lace. That's nice. The incoming ability. Yes. I'm wearing black brain lace right now. That's all a metaphor. Mesh is a metaphor anyway. So go with lace. Yeah. It's the ability to sort of quantify thoughts, potentially download dreams, all these things that the transhumanists dream about. To me, it's the possibility of one day being able to scan my identity and see the variety of these, whatever you want to call them, parasitic or symbiotic memes that are inhabiting, that are hiving inside of me so that I could

understand. Because you know how much of what we're up to is from what you're talking about, from being implanted with an insidious tightening, whatever you want to call it. What was the comparison you were using between a reed and a? Like a river reed and a cedar tree. Cedar tree. How many cedar tree style, unrelenting, unshifting, tight, brutal ideologies are we currently being inhabited by that we're not even aware of? I know. And those, when you talk about it, it makes me think, those are the splinters. Those are the splinters in your eye, the plank in your eye that Christ was talking about. It's like, you got to take the plank out of your eye before you can take it out of someone

else's because it's in you. You're not even seeing straight, right? You've got an algorithm nested in your vision. Wow, that's so interesting. And this, did you ever get into the course of miracles? You ever got into those books at all? Oh, yeah, a little bit. Yeah. I started, you know, just looking at it and reading it. And what I found, and I didn't do the day by day thing, I'm like, fuck that, I'm not going to do daily exercise advice. I was going through it kind of trying to understand it. It's channeled material, which is interesting. But the idea seems to be something along the lines of we are like these, this splinter or whatever you want to call it, all the apps running in our identity, they're acting as a kind of, I don't know, perfectly

shaped. Like if, if there were a keyhole peering into paradise or something, then all those things have filled that keyhole up. So we're essentially our very almost identity or most of what we are is literally blocking our ability to see. We've been blinded by these things. And it, don't you feel like some of these splinters or whatever you want to call them, they're being placed there intentionally. It's like there's an intentionality to it. Why do you think that is? Why, why would there be people out there? I'm not saying it's Morning Joe necessarily. No, it's, I mean, it starts because it's, it's advertising. That's the television model, right? Is create people's realities for them. That's, that's the way you sell. Or, you know, and I wrote this book way

back when called media virus, which helped launch viral media. And I didn't realize it was going to become what it became because I didn't think of it as marketing. I thought of it as sort of cultural agendas, like the Rodney King tape and things like that were happening out of control. But then people looked at it, marketers did and said, Oh, memes, I get it. Memes are the things that we can nest in another person. And only thing a meme does is says, make me, make me it, you get a meme in you, and then you're compelled to share it. Like, Oh, you know, whatever the Q non meme, Democrats are, are, you know, molesting little children and taking their thing. Once you find out, you've got to tell somebody because, Oh my God, it's, it's so horrible. So we end up becoming

like the machine that's played, but you're right. The more of these you have, the more they obscure your ability to see anything else. And now that we spend all our time on these meme machines, just looking at scrolling through crap, you know, on these various networks, there's so little left. But you know, the thing I keep arguing for people to do, just to recalibrate is just to look, look in the eyes of another person. And you reactivate, you know, 800,000 years of, of evolutionary systems that were designed to allow you to establish rapport and connect and get soft and human again. I want to ask you base, based on what you're saying, where is your inspiration coming from? If the effect of these sort of malicious or ambivalent digital memes is that

it produces a dehumanized state. When I'm reading your writing, which is really not just interesting, but good writing, like you're a really good writer. But where's your inspiration coming from? If, if not these memes, if most of us, you know, like it brings to mind those horrible parasitic, um, the fungus that gets into creatures and makes them go into the water and shit out these horrible worms. It's like, I become that when I'm like coming home to my wife and being like, so did you, did you hear what about the earthquake, COVID, whatever it is, you know, the, it's like the worm comes pouring out of my mouth. If, if that's what is the sort of, I don't know, symptom of being infected with these things, where is your inspiration coming from? What is it that is

cleared the cobwebs for you? Or how are you, where are you sourcing this stuff from? I mean, one, one, one place that I know you certainly got it too was, um, you know, after my daughter was born, when she was like, you know, one years old and would just like lie on my chest naked or whatever, you know, this, this, you get this, this some kind of oxytocin rush, but it's more than that. It's like the whole evolutionary something just happens and you're like, Oh my God, I've been with this soul so many times. And now I'm the grown up and she's the baby, but she's trusting me. And this thing happens when you realize, and, and once you connect to that, you get that feeling, then you can see, I can't anyway, you can see and feel kind of echoes of

that, you know, depth of connection in all sorts of things. I mean, for me, it's always looking for the liminal, like the, the soft squishy places when you find, I used to walk around New York City just looking for other people who weren't on their smartphone and make eye contact with them. And it's like, you're part of the secret conspiracy of that, you know, it's like, we're not the body snatched. Oh, there's another one. And you almost have a smile with them of like, Oh, I get it. Hi. So there's them or, you know, like I said, like David Lynch, just watching Twin Peaks the return or listening to a Neil Young record or, or, or your show. I mean, there's, there's these people in places that go in the in between, the unguarded in between liminal place. And it's like, Oh,

they're here. So it's, for me, it's, it's kind of live, live people. And then the artifacts of people who are celebrating and, and recording the, those liminal experiences that the in between space. When was the last time that you found yourself in the valley of the shadow of death in a place, you know what I'm talking about? Like, do you, do you, you're, your energy, it feels so beautiful and optimistic and real. And that's why everyone loves your books. And that's why, but when, how often do you find your, sometimes I just find myself not lately, but lately I've just been feeling this, you know, basic elemental joy about being a dad and having a family. And I, and I love it. And it's wonderful. But there's a piece of me that's like, Oh man,

how long before you land back in that place where you are numbed down, you are completely lost in the phone, you are doom scrolling, as they say it. When was the last time that happened to you? Or does it happen to you anymore? A week or two ago, you know, it happened to the point. I, I actually had a, I did a signal talk with a friend and I actually cried because I was so there. Yeah, this, this, you know, one of my very best friends in the world who'd been a light, you know, what I thought anyway, a light QAnon thinker user. After the election happened, he's got really mad at me. He said, you know, you got blood on your hands. This, you know, Biden is gonna, you know, he's gonna resurrect the war machine and the kids of all these, you know,

red state, you know, truck driving people that you don't like, you know, they're gonna all go to war and die. And this is on your hands. I'm so, you know, you know, I hope you relish, hope you relish that. And I was like, Oh man, man, I mean, and, and I just didn't know. You know, I've had my own cult experiences, certainly even back in the cult, even the, in the course of miracles days, you know, I experimented with stuff and I know what it's like to start believing in a system more than, than anything else. But this was so, it just, it hurt so much because I walk around. I mean, like you, I walk around with my soft squishy underbelly just open. Here I am. This vulnerable, softest, stickiest little part of me is just open, especially with my friends. And for someone

to go in and just stab right on it, it was like, Oh, it was, you know, it worse than losing any girlfriend I ever lost or anything. It was just brutal. And so it was a dark place. I don't know if it was that I was so programmed or something, but so capable of being hurt by the program, you know, really being, being, being, being hurt. It's, it's a, it's a, it's a cash, it's a cash, you would that if, if what, you know, you, you made a brilliant observation saying that this weird sort of data, but like split this schizoid parallel info timelines that we're all living in simultaneously as a sort of the result of us getting used to technology. Then your friend and friends, I have friends like that, not quite as bad. No one's like, turn the knife in my stomach

yet. But certainly I have experienced a distance to say the least between people who, who, you know, subscribe to that ideology. And it's a casualty. It's some kind of, I mean, this QAnon thing to me, it just smells like, and saying this makes me sound like one of them, it smells like a psyops. It smells like an intentional, like some kind of intentional attack using, doesn't that, doesn't it feel like that to you? That's the way I thought about 911 conspiracies, because the open conspiracy was bad enough. We trained the guy. I mean, just the regular news story is so damning that the crazy news stories, you know, the conspiracy theories distract us from the true real world crimes that happen without even going to the weird place. So yeah, I suspect

that a lot that these are, that these are that. But you know, in answer to your real question, I have felt myself fall into the program. Like, one of the programs is in the digital age and with us now publishing and content creators, you want to be the guy who came up with the thing and gets credit for it, right? If you come up with a great joke and you see, you know, some other comedian doing it, it's like, fuck, man, that was my bit. And they're, you know, and, and you don't want to get mad, but you do because it's like, I want credit for that. So, you know, I, I, when I went into that, these, these guys, they're these guys, they did this movie on the social dilemma about, you know, you know, social media and all that. And these guys are all like quoting my stuff

with no credit and all. And I'm like, all right, whatever. I got to look at it as good. You know, these are the first bad guys I was able to chip off from the big digital machine. I'm going to be above it. They're using my words. I don't need credit. I don't need that. And then they call me, like, they call me and say, we're going to launch a new website. We want to make sure it's okay with you. But, you know, we're calling it team humanity. What? It's like, dude, I just read a book called team human. You can't just go. I got so mad. I got so mad, but it was so, I didn't get mad on the surface with, I said, good, it's fine. It's whatever. And I quickly made a YouTube saying, look, there's this thing coming up. We've got to welcome these guys. They're just tech bros. They need to

feel like it's their thing. Like they came up with it. So just welcome them. And someday maybe they'll, you know, realize that we're all doing the same thing. But inside, I'm thinking, I got damn motherfuckers. You know, this is my thing. I want credit. Why do I always end up, you know, running around trying to sell six books. And, you know, millionaires are out there and bam. And that's when I realized, no, wait a minute, you're in the program. You're in capitalism. You're stuck looking for credit, looking for money, you know, and not really doing the thing that I'm preaching, which is, you know, just be the change. Just engage with people and watch how things change. They're changing. They're coming to my side and I'm not welcoming it because

I want credit. You know, so that's me falling into the trap. I want to thank BetterHelp for sponsoring this episode of the DTFH. Is there something interfering with your happiness or preventing you from achieving your goals like a global pandemic where you're afraid to leave your house or maybe you live in a city where you're not allowed to leave your house? BetterHelp will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapist. You can start communicating in under 48 hours. It's not a crisis line. It's not self-help. It's professional counseling done securely online. There's a broad range of expertise available, which may not be locally available in many areas. The service is available

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Gosh, you know what? I've gone to so many Ram Dass retreats and I've seen some of these great teachers speak and I've marveled at their patients doing exactly what you've done, which is like for sure you want to talk about like people like with in comedy it's if you are identified as a joke thief you just just hang up you're done hang up it might not happen right away but you will there's some it's self-police and you're it's doom it's doom you can't steal jokes it's a you just can't it won't work at least in the before times I don't know maybe now but the in the spiritual community you know you see this is a thing that happens which is that people's writing gets lifted people get their some of their main core like pillars of their

teachings just get lifted and with zero credit and and if they were to even you know show any sign of being pissed off it would almost negate their teaching you know and but and and so it's a beautiful thing when you watch them relinquish that and they really don't care and you realize they don't really they don't it's fine for them they're they're doing the dandelion and the wind thing it's really but where but the people who rip it off they're denying themselves the connection to the legacy yes in other words they value this idea that of novelty I've come up with something new the new new thing and what they've lost touch with you know as you get back in in in older religions you know in the myth of eternal return there's nothing new under the sun you can't say something

new that the the indigenous people got this that there's there's the gods have already done it someone before you has done it you know they had two circles everything you do is an imitation of something that went before right and everything's going to come back everything reincarnates and once you accept that it's like you want it's going to feel better if you can accept the resonances of the thing that you said it's it's your legacy it's your elders it's your teachers it's your partners yeah they are denying themselves the privilege of of of rapport of comrades of solidarity and that's sad that's stuck in the last renaissance in the in the individual in the culture of the individual and you know what else they're doing is they're they're uh it's like the

other thing that's great about citing people when you can remember that you were saying something that they said is that you connect everyone you know it's like it's it's a gift it's like when I when I'm quoting Sharon Salzburg I like to say Sharon Salzburg not just because I don't want to be the person who ripped off Sharon Salzburg which would make me just feel like the worst person on earth but also I want people to find Sharon Salzburg it's like they're cutting people off from you and your great books and that's right exactly we're all trailheads to each other you know yeah we're all links you know you want to like create like a that that's a to me this is the part of if I'm going to drop into like a creeped out despair state the way that I'm going to do it

is by recognizing how quickly history lineage connection truth can just be obliviated can just be wiped out do you know what's the name of that great conspiracy theory it's uh big mud have you heard this one you know I'm talking about no it's like I'm saying it wrong it's basically the idea is that history as we understand it it's completely wrong that there was some disaster that happened not like in the lesser driest like Graham Hancock says or not not like in the last ice age but like 500 years ago 600 years ago something happened the world got wiped out and history got completely rewritten now I obviously it wouldn't be that hard for anybody who had a slight understanding of anthropology or pottery fragments or to be like no that's

so not true like how do you explain carbon dating on certain things but again if you look at it as the metaphor mm-hmm oh it's scary to think like how how in the same way you just got like iced by these people and just wiped out and in that wiping out they take all the credit complete and and rob people from being able to go dive deeper into your philosophy but uh it which is a kind of a form of a weird kind of murder but it's a tiny little part of this other possibility you write about the Renaissance you write about team human about this impending beautiful decentralized communal yet somehow the main we can maintain our identity we can share and still without turning into some communist you know what I mean empty void uh but there are don't you have don't

you feel like there is another way it could go don't you feel like there's another way with all this beautiful technology uh that it presents obviously the beauty of the team human style Renaissance that you're talking about but it also presents the possibility of something so incredibly sinister that I almost don't want to talk about it jaren linear talks about it this Skinner box thing where the AI hypnotizes us completely keeps us magnetized to specific timelines memes or whatever you want to call it and we can't pull ourselves out I mean honestly it feels more probable than not wow you know if I'm gonna be honest I'm not I'm not optimistic I'm trying to stay hopeful you know and and and maximize the potential

for as many of us to get through this as possible but you know we're not breathing together we're not dancing together you know we are we are still really so caught up in the capitalist myth that it's uh it's scary you know that we can't arrest these systems that you know we have the ability of course to stop global warming and climate change and to deal with refugee crises and all these things but we don't have the political or economic will and you know I I feel like our leaders are telling us that you know we can have our cake and eat it too that you know it's like the great reset that the davos wwef people want to do you know with corporations now we're gonna recognize multiple stakeholders and it's like yes we could stay billionaires and fix

the world right and it's possible maybe they can't you can only have so many billionaires and a climate at the same time whoa right that's true yeah right yeah that's the this is the um and this again it goes if you while the these people are you know rolling their eyes at the vast number of folks who are uh subscribing to q and on or whatever it may be they're feeding that fire they're they're they're just just enhancing it they don't seem to understand that they they they need us to exist or maybe they're starting to maybe maybe it is you know god you know I don't understand communism I didn't mean to bash it earlier I really I don't think I'm smart enough I've tried you were bashing you were bashing totalitarianism

which is a little different a little right the living in communion is like to me I can't like outside of like a perpetual orgasm or something even that's actually that doesn't sound great it kills people I've heard of people with a form of epilepsy where they come to death I don't know if you ever heard of that it's a different podcast but the the the but the the what I'm saying is that Carl as I was in one of my many attempts to try to understand communism by reading Carl Marx yeah early days just upset my dad because it would just freak him out to see like the communist manifesto just laying in my room or something but the Carl Marx writes about this full automation getting to a point where everything's automated and the people who own the mechanism of automation

are going to be the ones who become bezos and the people who don't they're going to be irrelevant they're not even going to be able to work there won't be a job for them right and uh it's doesn't seem that that's where we're at right now that's it well that's what's coming that's where the the wealthiest among us think things are going I mean there's this story I it's in the team human book where I thought I was going to go do this talk for these wealthy like hedge funders about the digital future and it turned out to be just five billionaires who wanted advice from me first it was like you know ethereum or bitcoin or you know augmented reality or virtual reality like they're gonna put their money somewhere but then the whole thing was like Alaska or New Zealand

you know and we spent an hour I spent an hour with them on the question how do I maintain control of my security force after the event right so they they're gonna have their bunker they're going to be in New Zealand or Alaska or somewhere and they've got the navy seals they hired but their money is worthless so how do they make sure that the navy seals protect them so these guys you know they're already planning right they're taking 20 percent of their money and planning for the the the apocalypse for the the climate change or global unrest or economic crash or electromagnetic pulse or plague or whatever it is that makes the world unlivable but their model is to leave the rest of us behind right wow they're going to get off the planet with their spaceship

if they can you know get to mars with alon musk or or go underground for a century or two until the zombie apocalypse is over but if that they get it right so they've been going since the renaissance they've been traveling west earning money going with exponential growth and now building digital technology and now they realize oh shit you know where it's like the coyote off the edge of the cliff they got they're there you can't build out any more society to sustain them so they are as aware they're they believe more than we do in the inevitability of a of a major event crash horrible thing and when those guys if the the the these are the winners these are the winners of the digital economy oh my god are the ones who believe that so i mean yeah and i don't

think it's that they see better than we do i think it's that they um they they're they're living life in this in this kind of insulation equation it's like how much money can i earn how much money do i need to earn in order to insulate myself from the reality i'm creating by earning money in this way wow and you can't ever get there it's a you can't it's a it's like some asymptote you can't never reach that it's like how do i build a car that drives fast enough to escape from its own exhaust you know you're gonna come back around the other side of the planet eventually and you'll be in it right okay tell me i gotta know what was the answer for the security force like how do you keep your security force from just taking over your bunker i told them if they want the security

force to take care of them in 10 years when they're in the bunker then like pay for their daughter's bat mitzvahs now wow that's what i told they didn't like that answer but you know what i was yeah but you know what i'm saying it's like be nice be fucking nice man you know it's like not shock collars not the secret combination to the safe it's like if you if if 10 years from now they are thinking about killing you to get into the safe and then they remember right before they pull the trigger oh right he paid for my daughter's bat mitzvah i can't kill this guy you know that's that's the way to engender the trust for later i think the bat mitzvah gets you two years max maybe not even that i just think it's a better than nothing you know i i went i interviewed somebody

who had a who they had purchased one of these god i don't know uh underground massive underground bases that the u.s military had been using uh and i think it was in a limestone it was in limestone or something it's still there and they were basically you could buy a lot inside this massive massive cave where you could put your you know airstream so it's like a more of a middle class even though airstreams are not middle expensive but it's a way that you know you don't have a level billionaires low level billionaires you know you you got to get there you got to get there but if you can get there then you're going to be in this massive dark cave the pitch that the guy had was he was going to have a wine bar there was going to be a wine bar

and he had on display a an rv with some astroturf in front of it with a playground set on it and the darkness of this cave and i'm looking at this guy he's a big guy and i'm just thinking how long before this guy calls a meeting where he makes himself the lord of this universe how long before he gets a message from god telling him that you know look stop getting your wife's pregnant it should just be me how long and that security force question man that's keeping some people up at night to this day isn't it that it is it is and that because that's one of those common questions i get asked by these people but you know the real answer is in is is instead of trying to earn enough money to insulate yourself from the damage you're creating spend

your effort making the world a place that you don't need to insulate yourself right you know it's a much much better bet right is avoid apocalypse than than how to survive the apocalypse but is it i i can't remember the book i wish i could there was an essay it was talking about how if what's happening here from an evolutionary perspective is the wealthy have become a kind of economic uh galapagos and they're breeding with themselves they're living with themselves that you're not they they've created these enclaves i believe this person i gosh i wish i could remember it was uh he uses the term or she uses the term uh i don't know economic force fields essentially so you create these you know you you're not there's so many places in the world where

maybe you i don't know i know i'm never gonna make it to the bohemian grove it drives me crazy i just want to go i know but but and but within these little sort of bubbles there these converse not just conversations are happening but people are reproducing people are marrying people are and and within that almost like the i guess the hypothesis here is it's creating a new species that it's a creating a branch or something it's trying it's creating a another thing and it ain't it's not us and they don't care you know i don't sound like i'm trying to do a george the george the now that the it's been overplayed that great george carlin bit but it's like it's not like they can't they don't when you tell them that they're like no i don't they don't think of us in

the same way because they haven't been hanging out with us maybe for centuries and if they have been hanging out with us it's only because we're cleaning their houses we're bringing them food i have a friend who used to work at one of these fancy super elite places as a waiter he would bring people you know drinks at the pool and he said they don't they don't tip they don't understand the concept of tipping like they they don't they don't do it they they don't they and they don't look at you like you're a human so to me that's the other i don't i don't know why i'm getting so dark with you because no but they don't want they don't want to interact with you i mean that was you know the the big stoned insight i had when i was reading about

uh thomas jefferson's dumbwaiter you know that that i remember being taught as a kid oh look what a great invention this is so the servant doesn't have to walk all the way up the stairs with the food they just put it in this thing and you pull a string and it arrives yeah and it's like no it's not why thomas jefferson had it he had it so his he and his his dinner companions wouldn't have to look at the sleigh wow right the food would just arrive like from a star trek replicator there wow so yeah that's the it's it's that sense of of wanting to insulate but the fact is what things like covet are showing is they can't insulate they can't insulate the bugs get in you know the air gets in there's there's just no hermetically sealed tank in a you know in a

mountainside in utah that you can go in and even if you do you're gonna fucking die in there you know right there's not going to be light there's not going to be love you and your blue blood blizzard companions you know are de-evolving in order to survive rather than evolving forward because evolution and this is the whole point of that team human book evolution is a team sport that that evolution is not about the survival of the fittest individual that's not what darwin was saying what darwin was saying page after page if you read it it's like look at how species are collaborating and cooperating in order to ensure mutual survival that the path of evolution is towards greater collaboration and cooperation between the members of the species so if we're

going to evolve forward as humanity it's because we are working together we're establishing better rapport better solidarity we know as smart people as loving people we know the whole object of the game is to connect with others and isolation kills you babies that don't have their their touch of their mothers they die they quite literally die getting getting fired from a company that you've worked at a long time is experienced as as dramatically as losing a leg and that's because we thrive on connection with others so these people who are disconnecting themselves from their their fellow humans they're they're killing themselves they're they're in a suicide pact and that's why they're thinking about the end of the world because their world their world is ending

and we just have to hope they don't take ours along with them this so now i'm going to just to italicize what you just said i'm going to read a small bit from this wonderful bakowski poem called born into this dinosauria have you heard this poem before i don't know read it it's so great but it's uh it says they're rich this is like towards the end of it they're rich in the chosen will watch from space platforms dantes inferno will be made to look like a children's playground the sun will not be seen and it will always be night trees will die all vegetation will die radiated men will eat the flesh of radiated men the sea will be poisoned the lakes and rivers will vanish rain will be the new gold the rotting bodies of men and animals will stink in the dark

wind the last few survivors will be overtaken by new and hideous diseases and the space platforms will be destroyed by attrition the petering out of supplies the natural effect of general decay and there will be the most beautiful silence never heard i mean how so this this i think in our conversation this you have illuminated a real problem and it's the problem of ignorance and the ignorance of how we are interdependent and so let's say i am a lizard person listening to this right now let's just say by some impossible stroke of either good or bad fortune i don't know uh uh rupert murdoch you know just randomly picks this podcast and is like shuddering and listening and he suddenly hears he's like

rush coughs right what the what have i done i i've got it i've got a what a what do i do rush cough what do i do what do they do i mean what does it look like in a just in a real world way with where it's not about making sure our security forces don't kill us but what you're talking about in team human what do these people do because it's in and that's the first part of the question the second part is is there anything they could do or is it more of like a bottom up thing that has to happen something that we do that hopefully i don't know soaks in to their enclaves and bomb shelters well well in some way they they already did the good thing by mistake you know so these are the westward ho people that you know since the invention of text

and the ability to write down our history and write contracts into the future they've been living in this very linear uh very linear timescale where everything is the future and progress and go forward you know and we got colonialism and slavery and exploitation and all those horrible things and they went west and built more and had the industrial age and now the digital age and what they didn't realize was that when they built all these digital technologies digital was different digital is cybernetic cybernetic it means it has feedback there's feedback loops it comes back right so the very last stage of this extremely linear culture ended up being circular they're getting the feedback loops from all of the media and all the stuff that they created it is it comes

back so you get it in the form of yeah sure crazy things like QAnon but you get it even with with BLM you know Black Lives Matter and Twitter and nobody knows a corporation doesn't know are they responding to our message or are we responding to their message the the cause and effect the call and response has gone away so Fox News Murdoch's evil propaganda empire Fox News is a feedback they're just they're just putting what's on Twitter they're not they're not generating they are um they're feeding back they're part of a cycle so they've lost they've lost control which is a good thing so you know they pushed so far that that they created their opposite that that the the original the original vision for the whole thing which was you know Francis Bacon back in the

Renaissance saying empirical silence will give us the ability to take nature by the forelock hold her down and submit her to our will you know it's a rape fantasy that's what science was supposed to be a rape of nature and women that finally they raped it so hard it's coming back it got pregnant it's pushing through right their feedback mechanisms are happening so so they've been hoisted on their own petard you know in that way which i'm happy about but in terms of if if if and when um one of the billionaires comes to me and says what do i do what do i do 90 percent of the time what they're really asking me is what do i do for myself and my family you know so i'm going to still make this evo-capitalogical addictive technology for everyone else's kids

but what do i do with my own should i send them to Rudolf Steiner or Montezori should it's always their thing right usually but but what i would tell someone who actually cared is first scale down you can't do anything at scale at what at corporate scale it just doesn't work these are monsters they are they are these corporations they are truly monsters they are they are alien gods that that cannot exist they cannot coexist with human beings that that they should start living their life at scale which means walking on the ground looking into other people's eyes i i i would tell them take 10 minutes a day to sit with another human being and not do anything just see if you can tolerate 10 minutes with a person and then work up from

there you know so it's sort of that because what happened is they've decalibrated whether it was capitalism or staring at stock charts or looking in computers they've decalibrated their human organism their their their their soul has not spoken to them and so long they've they've auto-tuned they've really auto-tuned their soul and you know it's it's it's what happened to pharaoh in in torah you know god said it god says um i'm gonna harden his heart the pharaoh when he was being so mean his heart gets hardened and that to me means he lost his free will his heart was hardened his he could no longer have free will he could only do the awful thing he could only not let the jews go or the israelites leave or whatever it was and these folks too they've

i think that they've they've calcified or concretized frozen their free will you know they've gone into full petrified wood cedar stage you know yeah and so they've gotta soften they've gotta and the only way to do that is to be really you gotta reconnect with others so find your wife or your mistress or your child or whatever it is you've got look in their eyes you know and that will recalibrate breathe in sync with the other person you know it's so simple but once you do one of those guys if rupert murdoch looked at a person in his life in the eyes and breathed in rhythm with that person he would weep he would he might weep for the rest of his frigging life you know what i mean because if even one percent of his soul opened and started to experience

reality um boy you know i wouldn't want to be in there for that wow douglas thank you so much for this gift of getting a conversation with you you are brilliant this has been one of my favorite podcasts of all time i just i and thanks connor habib zach leary thanks for everybody you connected us because this was just incredible i am so grateful for your time here today i'm so grateful for what you do i mean it's it's such a gift to all of us just to watch just to watch people go on the show on the tv show on on on midnight gospel to watch the process of reincarnation happen of of all your stuff getting mashed up and going on the assembly line but you're having a conversation through the whole thing and you make it to the

other side with your friends and keep going it just made me feel so much better about this whole wheel that we're on thank you so thank you for that thank you oh well i'm glad i'm on the wheel with you and i'm glad i'm getting chopped up with you looking forward to whatever we reconfigured as can you would you mind letting people know where they could find you oh uh easiest place i guess is uh rush cough dot com or team human dot fm thank you i don't mean to be greedy but will you come back on the show someday oh anytime i'll come back in an hour i love you i love you thank you so much this is amazing that was douglas rush cough everybody you can find out all about mr rush cough at rush cough dot com a big thank you to our sponsors remember by supporting them

you support us and a big thank you to you my human family for continuing to listen and support the dt fh i'll see you next week until then harry christina a good time starts with a great wardrobe next stop jc penny family get-togethers to fancy occasions wedding season two we do it all in style dresses suiting and plenty of color to play with get fixed up with brands like lis clayborne worthington stafford and jay furar oh and thereabouts for kids super cute and extra affordable check out the latest in store and we're never short on options at jcp dot com all dressed up everywhere to go jc penny