Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 418: David Nichtern

Episode Date: January 8, 2021

David Nichtern, author, Duncan's meditation teacher, and someone you've seen on The Midnight Gospel re-joins the DTFH! You can learn more about David on his website, and be sure to check out his upcoming meditation programs: Free Info Sessions / Mindfulness Meditation Teacher Training Intro to Mindfulness & The Path of Meditation Weekend Workshop Creativity, Spirituality & Making a Buck Workshop Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Squarespace - Use offer code: DUNCAN to save 10% on your first site. ExpressVPN - Visit expressVPN.com/duncan and get an extra 3 months FREE when you buy a 1 year package. Purple - Visit Purple.com/Duncan10 and use promo code DUNCAN10 for $200 Off any mattress order of $1500 or more!

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That's Bench Gale covering that classic pandemic hit, pandemic dreaming. What's really interesting about that song is it was the last words of famous Parisian jazz musicians and not musician, musician Pierre Fouwans. Now the difference between a musician and a musician is a musician was a style of jazz performer that also practiced magic while singing jazz. And apparently Pierre during one of his acts when he was attempting to levitate a pile of bricks above his head while singing the song that you just heard, lost focus. And the bricks fell on top of him, crushing him to death. A tragic end to a brilliant performer and we mourn his loss. You're listening to All Bangs Considered. My name is Crevice Carl.

Up next, pandemic COVID elections. COVID pandemic in the time of frontline worker camp pandemic COVID elections. And Donald Trump all this and more on pandemic elections with COVID-19 frontline workers. We'll be right back. A heartfelt thank you to the HTML alchemists over at Squarespace for their continued support. Friends, I could tell you all the great things about Squarespace and if you've been listening to this podcast for any amount of time, you've heard me go on and on about how incredible it is that Squarespace has shopping cart functionality. Sizes to any phone amazing customer support, which from time to time I actually try out and that you can use the Squarespace powerhouse to create amazing email campaigns instead of sending out your lazy emails to your wonderful clients. Dazzle them with Squarespace emails.

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And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Duncan to get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain. Thank you, Squarespace. Friends, we did it. I don't mean to say the same thing. Everybody's probably saying, but holy shit, you made it through the holidays during a global pandemic. And for that, every single one of you deserve some kind of Nobel Peace Prize handed to you by whoever you most want to make love to in the world. You deserve session upon session of hardcore fucking with whoever you desire most mixed in with deep intimate massages, aroma therapy and various gifts from heads of state and representatives of advanced alien civilizations. If you made it to the other side of these pandemic holidays and haven't ended up in some dark forest wearing a necklace of bird bones woven together with your ass hair that you are proudly displaying to the trees while you shriek in articulate,

unintelligible garbled curses at the sky, then you are doing great. And I'm glad that we're hanging out together here on the other side of the imaginary bifurcation of the time space continuum that us human beings draw so that we have some sense of connecting to something rather than being absorbed completely into infinity. I had a great holiday and I think I owe some of my holiday non insanity to today's guest. If you watch the Midnight Gospel, you've already met David Nick turn. I got lucky. He ended up becoming my meditation teacher. And as cheesy as that might sound to some of my more cynical and sophisticated listeners, it's actually probably not quite what you imagine it. It really is just as I guess you could say normal is learning guitar or piano meditation, at least the style I'm studying.

A lot of stuff comes up via a practice and there's just really basic questions that come into your mind. Like, for example, for me, lately, whenever I start meditating birds land on my shoulders and like various beings from past, present and future gather around me and weep with joy to be in my presence. And, you know, it can be distracting when you're trying to meditate. So it's nice to be able to call David up and ask him what to do about that particular situation. And, you know, the thing is, it's because I got lucky enough to work with a meditation instructor that things like the holidays that used to really fuck me up mentally like used to some of the my deepest depressions have coincided with the holidays. You know, it's you lose your family, you lose your mom, you lose your dad and or you have your family. Either way, the holidays suck in different ways. So I think part of why for me this wasn't I wasn't in the trenches during this particular Christmas and New Year's was because of David's Council and my family and all of these things sort of coming together in a really sweet way.

We've been having the conversation that you're about to hear for a long time now. And if you're interested in meditation, I would love you to come and join us. We have a weekly meditation for our Patreon at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. And if you really like what David has to say or get a good vibe from him, you should go to his website, David nicturn.com. He offers classes and one of the God I hate saying this because it is such a cliche thing to say, but one of the silver linings of the pandemic is that you don't have to travel somewhere. To take meditation classes or to do group meditation or to work with a teacher. I just hated that, you know, finding parking before you go to like a meditation class and you're all pissed off because you can't find parking. But and then also you're in this weird hurry to go study meditation and the paradox is so particularly uncomfortable that it almost makes you want to get back in your car and go home and just take a hot bath and forget about

the whole bullshit spirituality thing. But now we can have these zoom meetings with some of these great teachers without ever having to leave our house. So definitely if you like the chat that you're you're about to hear if you like the other conversations that you've heard with David, just know he is accessible. And you should reach out and say hi. All the links you need to find him are going to be at duckatrustle.com. You've seen him on the Midnight Gospel. Maybe you have read some of his books, Awakening from the Daydreamer, most recently Creativity, Spirituality and Making a Buck. Or if you like Krishnadas, you might have heard his amazing guitar playing because he is a master musician to boot.

He is an amazing human, my friend, my meditation teacher. Everybody please welcome back to the DTFH David Nickturn. David, welcome back to the DTFH. I am, what day are we on now with your meditation challenge? Let me look here. Is it 10 days? Yeah, 11 now because we just did our group meditation. So 11 days straight, which for me is actually pretty astounding. I think I've made it for like four days in a row or something, but never 11 days straight.

So thanks. Well, we should clarify what the challenge is, right? Oh yeah. Right, so this is called the Nugget Challenge because that's my nickname, Nugget. And it's very simple. You just do mindfulness meditation for 20 minutes a day minimum every day for 30 days. That's the original challenge. And some people not to, you know, create too much intimidation here are up to like a day 150 or 160.

They just re-up. We call it tier two and tier three, you know, once you do the 30 days. And the only downside is if you miss a day, you go back to day one. There's no fresh start. Go back to day one. Wait, if you do 60 and you miss a day, you don't go back to 30. We're going to create a different page. Why would you go all the way back to one? Nobody else has negotiated before.

It's interesting. That's great. You're a good negotiator. Side of people who don't pull it off every day for 60 days. We need a lawyer here. Well, we, yeah, I mean, I think in your case, we could add a clause, a subordinate clause, sent the clause that says, okay, if you make it to 30 and you go for tier two, you only go back to day 31. Okay.

You have. But now I always was taught if I negotiate and I give something up, I have to get something in return. So what are you offering in return? Double the commitment. So if you go back and you get to keep your 30, you now have to commit to 60. Okay.

Meaning, so in other words, you have to do it for 60 days straight. Oh, okay. Double or nothing kind of. Yeah, exactly. Okay. That's a clause. All right. I, you know, the, I really, anytime I have pulled off daily meditation,

which has been difficult for me in the past. So, you know, I, I really do find myself somewhat confused by, what maybe is a misunderstanding or miscommunication regarding. Meditation, particularly Buddhist meditation. That this is supposed to be a thing that we don't have any reason for doing. That in fact,

according to who? Exactly. I don't know where I got that from. Yeah. I don't think Buddha would have said that. Okay. Cool. There's a very good reason to do it.

It's, it's, you know, what, what I mean is like, suddenly there's this kind of like monitor, monetization of the practice. In other words, like now I'm not just sitting. I'm not sitting. I'm not sitting. I'm not sitting. But I, but I, by the way, I'm glad.

I don't care what the method. Like if something is getting me sitting every day. I love it. And I love it. Not just because like, suddenly there's a feeling of like, Holy shit, I'm a little more in control of my life. But also because set somehow coincidentally,

whenever I start sitting, the Buddha, the poodles, barks are a little less piercing that, you know, the convergence of madness or chaos that can happen in a family. Like dogs shit on the floor, the poodles barking. Forrest is like practicing a banshee shriek now where he like, has the most high pitch shriek and they're all happening at once. You know, it's not like that doesn't,

it's not like that stops bothering me, but it doesn't bother me to the degree it used to. And, and to me, that's one, that's wonderful. So I love it. I don't know what I'm saying is thanks. I don't care if it's breaking some bullshit spirit. Well, and to clarify just a couple of things, you know, we're trying to take a lighthearted approach to this, right?

Guilt free, guilt free. I mean, you know, maybe some of us were raised with guilt as it's sort of like strong motivation, but it's not really a good motivator. It's because it leaves too much stain on the bathtub. It leaves a ring around the top. And, and the other thing is just, you know, it seems to be good to have a little playfulness and a little accountability for it.

And then people get into a groove and there's no doubt at all. If you just study how mind works and the brain works, that regularity, you know, steadiness is a positive influence. If it's not too rigid, it's a really positive. Try to train in anything, you know, try to train to become a long distance runner or a guitar player. You know, regularity is good for it. Right. Yeah.

And the, but also. And again, this is all stuff that I've, I've read, but now it makes more and more sense. It seems like if, you know, reading about spiritual stuff, the Dharma, whatever it is, if you really like reading that stuff without a regular practice, it's like trying to read without glasses when you need glasses. There's a quality to it.

It's just all theoretical. And then something about the practice, it makes some of the stuff that I'm currently studying much more clear and like a, there's more of a reference point. Yeah. Well, like study, study without practice is like trying to take a crap with the toilet seat down. Oh, wow. You know, there has to be some kind of space for all that to go into

and to be processed. And yeah, you know that we, you know, in our, our way of going about the Buddhist tradition, the way I learned it is study and practice are very important both, you know. Yeah. Well, I was thinking in terms of like sitting in the bathtub and just rubbing dry soap all over your body. You know, it's like, no water, you mean? No water. Like you've got to, both for there to be an effect. But this is the point I want to, I think people are probably curious about and which is, you know,

whenever I'm leading these group meditations, I say every time I'm a practitioner, I don't, I'm not anything I'm saying right now is easily wrong, like in, in literally wrong, not humble, but literally like, I was listening to some Buddhist, I'm listening to this wonderful book by Mingyur Rinpoche. And I'm trying to think of the exact point. Oh, he was talking about licking honey off a razor blade as a metaphor for suffering. And I completely misunderstood what that meant. And it's been like proclaiming it to mean something very different

than at least what this trained Buddhist monk was saying. But my point is, I feel, I get recently more than usual, people reach out to me saying, how do you find a teacher? How do you find a guru? Does that really matter? And because I, and I remember in earlier days before we started working together, I always felt kind of like, well, I'm not really doing it, because I don't have the presence of someone who has some experience with us in, in, in my life. And I am just, you know, you're winging it, so to speak.

So what do you, what do you have to say regarding that sort of classical formation when it comes to studying Dharma? Well, so, you know, since we decided we were going to talk today, I thought, well, we're really having an ongoing conversation with kind of, you know, commas and pauses, but it's evolving conversation. Yes. And, and that's kind of great, a great aspect of it. So I think what's happening, and this is a little bit of a broad stroke, but what's happening a lot in the world is meditation is being introduced.

It's like a first date over and over and over again. So, and people are not kind of often in a situation where they can evolve or progress their sense of what, what it's all about with any kind of increasing nuance. So I thought today might be interesting to kind of like explore the possibility of what, what a little more nuanced look at what meditation it is in this, in the Buddhist way of thinking about it. Yeah. And rather than just the first date of, okay, it's mindfulness.

You sit and you breathe because I think what's happening is what's getting saturated with the, with the first date aspect of Buddhism. Right. And nobody's, you know, in general, not offering some of these apps and things are not offering a kind of progressed path where you can actually develop and go deeper. So traditionally to go deeper, there is some notion of like, it's hard to do without steady stabilizing your kind of area of involvement, like be like equivalent of, you know, in, in,

in elementary school, you had to choose an instrument to be in the orchestra. Yes. And, you know, I'll play every instrument, you know, and okay, well, you know, you only go so deep with each one then. Right. So it doesn't matter in a way what you're drawn to and what you choose, but it does matter the idea of going in deeper at a certain point. Right.

To develop some kind of nuanced approach to it. So that's what's happening. I think that's my version of the now line of the kind of meditation tradition, maybe in the West, maybe the East too, is how would you go deeper into it and develop a possibility of expanding or whatever qualities you think you're developing in the first place, developing them further. Right. You know.

So for example, mindfulness is a good quality. I think most people would agree. No big deal. I mean, paying attention to what you're doing is a kind of generic idea and not that religious and not that specific. Right. And it's reflected in sports and it's reflected in business and, you know, in family life, being mindful is a good thing.

So what, where does that evolve towards? What, what, what would, what would that open the gate for? And the real issue is that we start with mindfulness, which is in, in Sanskrit, it's called Shamatha in Tibetan Sheenay. And it's developing focus. You become more focused. So yeah, the dogs are barking, but you go, okay, well, I don't have to have my mind stolen away by that.

Right. You know, then the next tier, which I think is what's going to come up now for people is awareness aspect of, of the meditative practice, which is called Vipassana or Vipassana, like Tongan, Tibetan. So, and I call it English discovery. You start to notice stuff, start to become more like you said, I'm noticing the dogs barking.

I'm noticing my mental reaction to that. I'm noticing the history of that. I'm noticing the pattern of that. I'm noticing the feeling in my body when I get agitated. Yeah. I'm noticing the look in your eyes. When you look at me and I'm about to lose my mind, you know, so that's Vipassana.

And what they say is that sort of awareness, but it also develops insight and perspective. And I think that's the next step for a lot of people is to understand what, what that is. And it goes from there. That's not even really the full iteration because then in Vipassana, you start to notice that there's more space, which is I think what you're describing.

Yeah. And then you start to notice that there's more space, the kind of throbbing of the ego becomes a little bit less kind of all pervasive. And you begin to notice that there's more space than you thought there was. And in fact, that the things you were filling the space with are not that substantial

in the first place. Right. Does any of that make sense? That's what I was sort of thinking we could get into today. Yeah. Yeah. So it sounds like what you're saying is regarding the teacher thing. Yeah.

I mean, you go deeper into whatever the particular practices, like, like there's always going to be something more than just what you're going to pick up in the first, like commercial book with a cool cover and awesome name. Like, which is also what I love about the lineage of Buddhism that we've been working with that you teach me, I love it because it's Jesus God in heaven.

It's so much more than that. And so when you pick it up, you know, when I'm listening to, when I'm chatting with you or when I'm practicing or when I'm listening, or, you know, when I just just decide to like pull up some kind of. Aspect of Tibetan Buddhism. Online. And then you realize just how psychedelic and deep and wild it is. It's really quite beautiful. But I thought.

Maybe one way into like what you're suggesting we talk about is. Intention. Well, and Duncan, let me interrupt for one second. Sorry. But you're right. I didn't really address the teacher issue of what you asked. I sort of, I kind of talked about the general sense of learning and going. So here's, for example, nuance is perfect when you're talking about a teacher. So in our tradition, it's kind of,

there's three sort of stages of teaching that and being a teacher, which we teach this in the teacher training program that that we have. You know, and the first level is just kind of elder, you know, somebody who's, you know, work with that equation for a while and has some idea about how to pass that forward. So it's not, it's not a guru. You know, that's the thing is people, that's another unknown things. Oh, I got to find a guru. Well, what do you mean somebody to turn you into a slave and tell you what to do every minute of your life?

You don't need that. You need somebody to tell you how to sit down and meditate or how to, you know, how to work with the situation. So that's an elder. That's the first or preceptor. Then in the second stage, the person becomes, they call it a Callianomy or a spiritual friend. And that's kind of eye level. The person is like a guide, you know, the difference between a preceptor and a guide is the guide.

You go to visit, you know, Rome and an elder tells you, oh, you should definitely go see the Parthenon or whatever, you know, whatever, whatever, you know, the Trevi fountain and it's over this way. And here's the map, but a guide will say, I'm going that way. I'm going to take you. And that's the spiritual friend. So it's kind of eye level and the teacher is kind of in your house and in, you know, in your world and having meals with you and talking about all kinds of aspects of life.

And that's still not a guru. Yeah. There's a real sort of, you know, sense of actually communicating with somebody who has some, you know, experience of the thing that you're looking into. Then in a kind of in the Tantric tradition, the Vajrayana tradition as it's taught in Tibetan Buddhism, then there's the idea of a guru, which is kind of very progressed, actually. And that person should be like a master, you know, they should really have, there should not be a lot of guesswork going on at that level.

Right. That's what's going on. And people abandon all hope. Anybody who thinks they want to become that, you know, you'd have to be out of your mind basically. Right. To want to become a guru. Yeah, right. What a pain in the ass, huh?

What a disaster. That would be a real mess. Well, you'd have to be a completely accomplished bodhisattva. You'd have to really think that working for others is important. You'd have to kind of have a clarity of mind that is unshakable in a way. And, you know, there's a sort of indestructible quality to a certain level of accomplishment. And you'll know when, when that's going on, people shouldn't worry about it. I think that that's, that's the wrong end of the stick to start with, you know.

Right. Yeah, it just, I think it's, if you're like we're talking about the way a lot of this stuff gets communicated to people is usually through cinema or through like fiction. And in that, you know, there's something really romantic about it and there's something really cool about it. And so those big things get amplified and the more subtle things completely get left out because you only have, you know, an hour and a half to do the movie. What are you going to do? Like you're going to show Dr. Strange, like being a little less angry. Yeah, and a whole scene where he's just like a little bit bored, you know, audiences looking at their watches. Yeah. Like him on the phone with AT&T, like actually listening to the person on the other line.

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So nobody knows, and they can protect you too. Thank you ExpressVPN. Okay, so I want to one thing that I've been realizing is that the intention going, does the intention going into matter at all. Yeah, well, for example, you could ask the question the other way, if you don't have the intention to practice, would you actually practice? Oh gee, I just tripped and I fell on my cushion.

Right, you know, that's, that's an incredibly cool accident. You're actually sitting while you might as well stay there for 15 or 20 minutes, as long as you tripped. Yeah. So intention seems to proceed everything. Mind leads is what I would say. Okay. Mind leads body.

You know, you don't get up and go out and mow the lawn accidentally. Well, what I mean is if so, but let's say the reason that I've, I'm deciding to meditate is just the most greedy reason or something. Like I'm, you know what I mean? Like I'm, I'm, I'm, it's not that I'm not going to meditate, but it's that I've thought to myself, well, I'm pretty sure that if I start doing this over time, assuming like the reservoir of writing regarding this practice is not

just crazy people writing and lying at the other side of this, I'm probably going to have some power. I'm going to probably have some ability to do things I didn't have before. I'm probably going to get, make some money from this. Like I'm probably going to, like this is probably going to do, I'm not doing this because I want to help everybody or some crazy shit like that. I'm doing it because I want to be better. I don't try to think of the most boring reason for me because I want to be

better golf. I'm going to start meditating so I can be better at fucking golf. Does it matter the intent going in? Okay. So again, classically speaking here, really we're talking about motivation. Motivation comes first, then you hone it into an intention, which is a declaration of like, I'm going to do this, but why are you doing it is what you're really talking about.

Does that matter why you're doing it? And the answer is yes, it does matter. And you know, good teachers say, check your motivation. It's good to check on it. And the best motivation classically is altruistic motivation. But you know that you, you, you have the sense what they call the body, the body Chitta aspiration. You want to arouse a wakeful and consider compassionate heart to share

with others and to help other people also along their way. That's it. And we arouse that motivation in a lot of practices. You start there, you go, let's arouse body Chitta as the, as the motivation awakened heart. So if your motivation is greed, power, you know, lust, whatever, you know, it's like the way you start to move your bat and when you're swinging a baseball,

it's going to go that way, you know? So I think there is some sense of correct checking at the beginning, what, what's going on and having a good look in the mirror as much as you can. And even you could recognize, oh, I want to be famous. You can see those things without necessarily just completely given the bus driver, you know, letting them drive the bus completely. You could just see it and it's okay. You could, you could maybe acknowledge it.

But having the body Chitta aspiration is better. See, that's to me, this is the reason I asked you the question. I was watching this amazing documentary on flowers. I think it was a chrysanthemum. This thing's crazy. It beetles, it has like, it's filled with nectar and beetles fly into that nectar and they get stuck and there's only one way out. And the way out is through this tiny little exit that when the beetle squirms through,

it gets the pollen on its back. There's, and then pollinates another flower. And so I was thinking, holy shit, you know, like when I, when, when, who is it Marpa in Pajrana Buddhism? You know, his intent to go study Buddhism was there, there was some. Yes, right. There was some, I don't want to call it greed, but he was trying to make money, right?

Well, like that. Yeah. Yeah. So first of all, I was just going to say, if you're talking about that Duncan, it sounded like the beetle is in a Pajrana dilemma. It goes for the, you know, that rich, luscious atmosphere, which is what the Guru energy is like. It's very compelling.

It's not like any ordinary kind of sense of, you know, conditional affection. It's, it's very expansive. And then you get trapped in it. There's only one way out, which is through, which is that's sort of what you, you know, that might be a metaphor for, you know, for actually that, that type of study situation. But the question really is, is there something organic about the process where it's going to move in the right direction? If you only allow or surrender to that aspect of it.

Yeah. Do people have the bodhicitta already? You see what I mean? This is something I have to crank up. I have to think, Oh, I'm just doing this to help out the, because that could be just totally phony too. Yeah. You know, funny. Yeah.

I like those people scare me the most in a weird way. Oh, I'm just, I want to help that. You know, it's like that, that can be kind of superficial and, you know, worth looking at more. So, yes, you're right. There, there's something organic in it. When we arouse the bodhicitta aspiration, we're actually touching into something that's quite, quite familiar and, and quite natural for us. We do, we are able to love and to, and to care for others and care for ourselves. And it is close to our twoist nature.

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Go to purple.com slash Duncan 10 and use promo code Duncan 10 for a limited time. You'll get 10% off any order of $200 or more. That's purple.com slash Duncan promo code Duncan 10 for 10% off any order of $200 or more terms apply. Thank you purple. Maybe you can talk a little bit about the transition from mindfulness to Bodhi Cheetah in the sense that mindfulness can come across as a very intellectual, non heart based, you know, like, at least for me, when I've at times in practicing, it's just felt like very and probably just because I hadn't been practicing enough, but there is a sense of like well, it's literally called mindfulness like it's a mind headspace and headspace.

Yeah. So, so then what happens, you know, inevitably in discussions regarding this progression or the stages, you run into the Bodhi Cheetah thing. Heart space. Heart space and now and then and all this time you've been doing this mindfulness and now all of a sudden it's like, oh, you want me to fucking you want me to love everyone like the way I love my kid now. That's just that would be devastating. Like, you know, because, but maybe you could talk a little bit about this whenever I because I can the mindfulness stuff somehow is a little easier for me. Sure. You get into the Tong Lynn thing.

Sure. Bodhi Cheetah thing suddenly this is like, you know, it obviously I intellectually can understand, I want all beings to be happy. I want to have compassion. I want to all be. But can you feel that? No. No, the moment it's there's a all or a totality in it. It's just forget it like it's it's it doesn't make any sense to me and because I can't picture all beings.

You know what I mean? I can't picture everything. And so that's where I the whole thing falls apart. I can when they're saying things like think about your, you know, you're someone you love your child, your wife, you're someone you've wronged that you loved. And then when I get feel that stab in my heart that I've begun to understand is is love. Then I have some vague sense of it. But yeah, I get real stuck here when it comes to Bodhi Cheetah or the, at least the way that I've heard.

Well, this is this is why I thought the nuanced, you know, step understanding progression could be really helpful because there, it is well mapped out. And that's one thing about Buddhism is you can you can study it intellectually. And it's like it is it is a clearly laid out description of something. You know, it's it there's not a lot of like, well, just kind of just do, you know, I mean, it's it's there is a version of it that a well honed intellect can get get into and go, OK, I see I see the order of this situation. So the mindfulness gives you a sense of stability and presence, focus. And there's no doubt that if you do mindfulness meditation, you can develop focus.

I mean, that's that's and it has certain other benefits to that spool off of that. So you go from a very scattered kind of state of mind distracted all the time, you know, you know, bouncing around, and you learn to just kind of bring your attention back together to kind of one thing and so stabilizing it. Step one. OK, as we said, then step two is you start to from that call that the tripod. OK, you kind of balancing the tripod. Now we put a camera on top of the tripod. It's going to take clear pictures and that's that's for Pashina.

You actually see clearly, OK, I'm here and present. Well, thoughts are coming and going. Yeah. Oh, I thought these thoughts were kind of permanently embedded or like I'm just accident, but they actually are coming out of nowhere and going nowhere. And now it's five minutes later and I was bored. I was terribly bored five minutes ago and now I'm sleepy and five minutes later now I'm horny. Yeah, well, well, there must be some space out of which these things are rising and dissolving back into. So Pasha is the beginning of that kind of perception.

Now, what's the nature of that space? Well, it's kind of empty. It's empty of the things that fill it intrinsically. There is no permanent lust. There is no permanent aggression. There's no substantial qualities that are just glued into that space. They arise and they dissolve. So that is the beginning of the perception of what we call emptiness or Shunyata.

You can actually get a glimpse of it like seeing the tail of a lizard as it scurries off onto out of your field of view. That's how we experience emptiness. It's just like a little bit of a glimpse. Yeah. Okay. Now that glimpse opens and what is in that glimpse is the beginning of cultivating compassion. Because compassion as just a kind of fabrication is yet another, it's like lust. It's just something you made up.

Yeah. So, but when you see the tail of the lizard going off and there's a sense of space and openness and then a little warmth comes up out of that. You see that beetle in the flower. You see it. Yeah. And you go, oh, I touched my heart. Something just organic has happened. That's non-dual compassion.

That's what we're really working with. So it's not just cranking up another bunch of fabricated things. The compassion and the emptiness are really very strongly connected experiences. So that's important to understand. Yeah. That's past my pay grade here. That's like, I've gotten as far as, you know, moments of, I'm not thinking I don't feel compassion or anything or that I don't have empathy. But, you know, anytime I get what I think you mean by the lizard's tail and feel that glimpse, it's almost instantly followed by, fuck that.

You know what I mean? It's painful. The thing itself is not painful. The lizard's tail is not what I would call painful. But something about that depth of whatever that is for me, it reminds me, it reminds me of something that I guess I have been trying to avoid or that is painful. Which is what? Loss. Okay.

That's the seed of the compassion right there. What do you mean? Not avoiding that experience. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. Yeah, that seems for, I mean, is it that's, I don't think it's intolerable. You know, I think it portray your mind will consider it to be intolerable, but I don't, but it's close to like that. I don't even know if it's, I think maybe, I think what happens is that I start making up a very complex story regarding it.

And that story is essentially, well, if you go there, then you're going to lose everything. Like if you go there, then you're going to lose it. Like you're, that's, how can you be anything in that state? Or, you know, I don't know how to express it even. Sure. Yeah. It's, there's, I've told you this before, but Trunk Per Rinpoche saying enlightenment is Ego's final disappointment. Yeah.

Yeah. There's like not much of a reward in the conventional sense. And, but I think Duncan, what comes to mind, and you know, we talk about first thought best thought a lot, right? Yes. Because in our spontaneous communication, it seems like if you, if you allow that to surface, it has a lot of kick, you know, for the first time. So when you were talking about it, frankly, I was thinking about your mother. Yes. And your eighth show.

Yeah. Midnight, midnight gospel eighth show is, I've said it before, is a real lesson for all of us. You know, who, who, who, who watched it for those who created it for you, who lived it for your mom, of just what compassion really actually feels like. Yeah. Because there's a lot of space in it. Yeah. Wasn't you by her bedside going, oh, mom, come back. You know, it was really, she really took you there into the bigger space.

And in that bigger space, there's just this kind of warmth. Yeah. Now that's to me that I think when you're talking about this first date versus second or third day thing, this is where I think people just aren't aware that that number one, that that is even a quality of mindfulness or Buddha that, or even the mindfulness is part of a process that leads to that. But this, but certainly at least I have never in my life. Of hearing the term emptiness. Like until recently working with you ever are listening to Sharon Salisbury. Even when I've read it, you know, and books by people who say it, I just never even like made it onto the radar. I overlook it. But this concept of space as being compassionate.

Yeah. It's actually the same thing. Help me understand this. It's wild to me. You know, I like, we usually when I'm thinking of space, I don't think of any quality. I don't, you know, I, you know, if I do think of equality, I think, well, it can't be a quality because it's space. But this idea that that warmth as you're calling it before you start crying or that warmth before you turn away from it or the warmth before you like get it hammered is space. Is that what you're saying?

Yes, in a sense, because the problem with emptiness is it's the wrong word in my humble opinion. It is sort of a fairly literal translation of shunyata. You know, but you have to say what it's empty of, because that's what it's really getting at is you filled your bottle with a bunch of crap, and it's empty of that crap and you're better off with it empty of that. But that flower is also empty, but it's got that nectar. The nectar is empty, but it's still nectar. So it's a harder concept to get of understanding shunyata or emptiness as potentiality. And in, in Vajrayana language, you don't speak of it the same exact way you say it has. And you're, you know, you're talking about Mingyur Rinpoche or some of those type of style of teachings.

Space is very rich. It's very full. It's abundant. It has all the qualities in it, but none of them are solid and fixed in the way that we're conventionally used to thinking about them. It's empty of that. So most people have not had the opportunity, I think, to understand that word as being, I like to think of it as like emptiness, like a womb is empty. Your mother's womb was empty and then it gave birth to the Duncan mobile, you know. And all that that meant came out of that emptiness, that spaciousness. So that's, I think, a harder concept to get to. And people, if you just go at it dry and intellectual, you go, oh, it's empty, man.

It doesn't matter. You become a nihilist. That's all. Right. So it's like those moments, you know, like in this Mingyur Rinpoche book, he literally says, bring to mind someone or animal or something that you love and imagine that that being is in pain. That feeling, that's where he's, that's the feeling. And you know that, whoa, that, that got me because I thought about my Chihuahua when he was crying and just that feeling. You're saying that that feeling, not the proceeding like God damn it, why didn't I take him for more walks, but that feeling. Yeah. You're saying is a quality of emptiness. That, that, that, that, what that is, because what he said is think of the way he put it was immense vulnerability. Look at how, you know, that, that vulnerable that, because I know what he makes sense.

I can feel it. And it, but, and I would say that prior to me trying to like, prior to the guilt, it is one, it isn't a terrible thing. It's the, it's, but to connect that with emptiness. That's where that, let's more about that. Well, that's what really to me separates out the Buddhist approach, because who would put those two things together. Yeah, usually it's one or the other. And if it's the, if it's the connection and the compassion and the bliss, then it can become eternalistic and theistic. Right. And you, you know, you've kind of solidified that realm. And if it's the emptiness piece, it becomes like, well, there's no, as you said, it's neutral. It doesn't have any qualities of its own. It's just kind of, you know, vacuous in that sense. And that's lean towards the nihilistic understanding. But who would put those together? Emptiness and compassion. Yeah.

And can you, you know, not make it into too much of a mind game. So maybe one way to experience emptiness is just to, like you described the Chowau, the dogs are barking. That's, that's, that's empty. Yeah. What is it? Why isn't it empty? It's that it's just noise. It's just sound. It's beings making sounds. And at the same time, it's a very poignant. Yeah. That little being, I watched that commercial Duncan on TV. God, it's killing me on, on, I think they're playing on an MSNBC a lot about that, the dogs trying to make it through the winter months and they're trying to ASPCA. And I just, you know, I just go, okay, I got, I can't bear this. You know what I always think? Hey, put your fucking camera down and help the dog.

What are you doing? Yeah. How about feeding the dog and we'll be shivering then. That's an interesting thought. What do they do? Do they drive through cities? Like, Hey, I've got it found a shivering dog. Get this right here. Let's film it. Get some donations. The dogs are all union, I'm sure, you know, getting scale. Your dog sucks. It's seeming sad. Get it out. Yeah, I mean, you know, what are we trying to get out here is decency, I think would be a good word to throw into the mix. Just be decent. That's what I'm missing more than anything right now in the world. Just could you just, I don't care if we don't agree about that. Could you just be more decent?

You know, and there's a sort of lack of decency. I'm not going to say civility. I think that's super imposed, you know, but decency, you know, when somebody, you know, okay, you're right. It would be interesting when the camera stopped rolling out. They treated those animals, you know, that's a really interesting question. If I, if I go to decency, this is something we've talked about a little bit. If I'm able to like, allow that place to hang out longer than, you know, like, this is a really cool thing that's happening right now. There's all these fusion reactors that are starting to fire up and it's the craziest thing. And they'll say it stayed on for 20 seconds, which is the longest any of these things have stayed on. Apparently, if you get them to stay on long enough, then you have infinite energy on Earth. It's safer than fission reactors. But like, if I can maintain that compassion, pre-story compassion, just that vulnerable sense, even not being able to maintain it, but having at least at the very least being able to like plug back into those moments. And then imagine if I were to expand it for longer than like however long it takes before I turn my back on it or distract myself from it. Then I guess I could understand that idea that a kind of wisdom would begin to exhibit itself out of that feeling.

Like, how are you going to not be decent? Like, if you think about the way you felt the time you saw the thing you love most in the most amount of pain, before you got angry because he thought the vet sucked or before you got angry at yourself, but just that feeling. Yeah, how are you in that state going to do anything shitty to anybody? Like, how are you going to be violent? How are you going to be cruel? How are you going to, I'm saying before the story starts. Again, first thought, you're describing Buddhahood. You know, remember, Buddha's not somebody's name. Oh, that guy was Fred, you know. It's a state of a way of being that is, maybe there was one person who completely embodied that possibility and, you know, was very lucid about how to communicate from that perspective. But it's not somebody's name and it's not a thing. It's a kind of sustained. So when you when you hear about some of these really great teachers, they sometimes talk about recognizing Buddha quality of wakefulness. Especially in the Dzogchen tradition, like a Mingyu Rinpoche, the main practice is not mindfulness per se, because it's too like me being mindful, you know, controlling thing. It's just recognizing the possibility right now, literally right now, of being in awake. That quality is there, right? Right now, is it? Is it so?

But it very quickly floats, drifts back into a kind of myriad of thoughts and feelings and, you know, wandering mind. So the practice becomes recognizing awake frequently, not just when you're on the cushion, you know, kind of flashing some kind of wakefulness during the day. Yeah, just glimpse, just the tail of the lizard. Yeah. And then not trying to sustain it, hold on to it. So that's the second thing where I think drunk Rinpoche was brilliant. He said, disown it. Other people would just say dissolve, you know, touch, touch that, catch that glimpse and dissolve, but doing it frequently. Come back, come back, come back. And then at a certain point, they talk about the kind of, you know, quality of stability in that wakefulness. It doesn't leave many glimpses, letting go, and begins to become more of a, you're more familiar with it. And then you can rest there. And then they talk about 24 seven, can you do it even when you're asleep? That's hard. But you are help me with this confusion. You are doing it, right? Isn't that that isn't it? Okay, so if emptiness as we're calling it is the womb of all change, then really you're you're already doing it.

Like you're already, you're not, it's not a thing that you do. But it's, it's, that's actually, that's what's going on. Well, that's why the language shifts in that perspective. Again, this is the nuanced approach. This is not what how you teach mindfulness to somebody who's just got their brain scattered all over the landscape. This is, you use the word recognize. All right, what's recognizing though, recognizing what you just exactly said, what is the right. So what's the recognizer it's, this is, you know, and like so okay, it's recognizing itself. It's recognition of quality of it. It's the joke quality of it. It's a cosmic humor quality of it. Like, if you looked in the mirror and you said, Oh, there's Duncan, there's a joke there, right? I mean, who else could it be? Actually, there's a lack of joke. I'm trying to write material to go on stage. But you recognize, Oh, Duncan, yeah, you know, it's a little bit of a joke because it was Duncan all along.

I see what you're saying. Yeah, it's so the thing is recognizing itself. That's Mahamudra. Yeah, they say the symbol is the symbol of itself. Tell me a little bit about sweat trying to swim back. Okay, so in this case, what pop first thought best thought what pops into my head is someone who is like been afraid to jump into like the on some stupid desert island, afraid to jump into the ocean jumps into the ocean suddenly realizes not only is the water warmer than I thought it was it feels amazing and not only does it feel amazing but I can breathe underwater and not only that but I don't think I need to stay on the island. Why was I even on that island suddenly thinking fuck that I don't know. I only know the island. Can you talk about swimming back to the island for that? Yeah, you know what I'm talking about that thing of like, Oh, fuck, fuck, what weirdly I think I know exactly what you're talking about. So that's that's interesting in itself because I could you're talking about you get a sense of a bigger space.

And then you go but wait a minute, you know, and it's a sort of a snapback like if you pull a rubber band and it kind of snaps back to like, look, at least I'm familiar with this stuff, you know what I mean. Yeah, I know, I know how to be resentful and pissed off. You know, at least it's like, you know, you know, I ate this morning dunk and I left some brown rice out on the stove last night. And I forgot to put it away and then this morning I had a little bit of a for breakfast and I started feeling like I don't feel so good. And then I looked on Google, and it, it develops spores and it makes you really sick. Oh my God, you know, so yeah, I'm fine, I think but the point is that we go back to the familiar, even though it's been developing spores and really kind of making us quite sick so that's where the notion of renunciation comes in. You have to, you have to have some sense of renunciation of the island. There you go, you know what, let me use my best mind here. This is not that great. Really, it may be familiar, it may be comfortable, but it's, you know, it's not really comfortable. We always, in the world, we always, we love to use terms like too late, you know, in other words, like, that's, that's one of the qualities I think these days like the, the, when we're sort of real, everyone's kind of collectively coming to a realization of just how toxic social media has become and you're

looking at social media and you see, like that's what, that seems to be one of the favorite shitty things to tweet at someone's day is like, well, too late shouldn't have done that. Now you're fucked forever, but there were reversal this to me seems like the reversal of that in the sense in this way of thinking is it possible that there's a Sorry, too late, you're going to, you're going to get enlightened. I'm sorry that it's too late. You're going to actually be in an ocean of compassion. Yeah. Sorry, you, you, but is there a point, if you ever found a point where Well, they call it non-returning, literally. Wow. You can't, the island's gone.

Yeah. And, and, and that's an interesting thing in the sense that this, this is like, what a why if you like that's a why that is that so in other words, Buddha, theoretically, was there a point in the many incarnations of the Buddha. Was there a point in those incarnations, or in the, in the prior to the first turning of the wheel of Dharma as they call it, where that being was like, I don't know about this. Like, I think right up to the last moment, there was a possibility reversal. And then what he would have called or what we would have called his, you know, full realization, that's actually saying it's not reversible. Now, people would argue about this, Duncan, this is a good Buddhist debate topic. Yeah. Maybe Zen people would say there's no such thing, you don't talk about who cares anyhow, you know. Yeah.

But my understanding of it is that at that point, Buddha cannot go back to the island. The island is gone. And that's why that heart sutra, got a got a power got a completely gone. The island's gone. And even if it appears, it appears differently. It appears as a kind of relative phenomenon. Clearly, it appears as something that could be serviceable or toxic, you know, depending on your perspective. Right. Yeah. So I think, you know, there is a progression there and there's a difference between. That stage of realization and there's many, you know, people have talked about in, especially in these circles that we travel and maybe somebody says I had a Satori or I had some kind of realization. It means it doesn't mean that much, you know, there's because there's, if you're still talking about it, you know, if there's any clinging to it, that then it becomes another stage of the rocket that needs to get burned off, you know, is that because for the for that moment of like, Holy shit, I got enlightened or Wow, realization or whatever to happen. It still involves a fixation on the boundaries.

Like, in other words, you fixated on before and after thing. And what you're talking about is that you're that you are no longer fixated on boundaries. You're playing a pretty slick version of a game that you still can't win really. You know, it's self referential. Oh, yeah. You know, you can't win that game. That's the irony of it. Right. You can be Lord of the three universes. You can be president of the United States. You can be a super rock star, but you cannot win that game because at a certain point, there's something there to lose. Is this like, if we're going to keep using the island thing is so

like going from island to ocean or is it like going from island to universe. Well, lately, and because of friends like you, I don't even think of universe, I think of multiverse. I like multiverse. I like the idea that it's and in Buddhism, they use a lot of big numbers of innumerable or countless. You know, they say, for example, if you practice Mahayana Buddhism, you know, pretty, you know, strictly and stay with that exchanging self for others kind of program in three eons three kalpas. You could attain realization, you know, now what's a kalpa? It's an immeasurable eon, you know, it's already you're ready. And oh, now you got to have three of those, you know, one wasn't enough. So, and they say just, you know, so I think the multiverse ideas, it's beyond your ability to envision the expanse of it. Good way to look at it.

And the rational mind gets, you know, it's going to freak out probably at a certain point. Yeah. You mean, is that a normal thing? Is that like just part of, is that an acknowledged part of the big is the rational mind starts freaking out or is that Well, again, coming into the Vajrayana. That's one of the key roles of a quote unquote guru type of relationship. And again, the guru is something embedded in oneself. It's in the in the multiverse experience and it's in it can appear in the guys in form of a human being that you relate to. But there's some aspect of it going beyond your ability to conceptualize it and manage the experience. And that that's, you know, So one of the portals into that is panic. It's an interesting thing. When you panic, you can't wrap your mind around what's happening, right?

Yeah. So one definition like grim to use to say, Well, the role of a teacher is to make the student panic. But that's again, very kind of evolved perspective on on on on that kind of relationship. But just in the sense of like, not getting comfortable with your ground, even if at the ground is Buddhism, for say, that knowing the panic part. There's again, another part, I don't know that people in the introductory app classes that they're taking that you don't you don't get a lot of indication that Oh, you know, that is a possibility. But maybe you could talk a little bit about that peculiar, you know, just through the practice of mindfulness, not even the Bodhichitta phase of things, but just through the practice of mindfulness. And for me, there's an unnerving moments where it's like, I realize that every single thing I don't like. Whatever it is, whether it's like the fucking new Taylor Swift album that everyone says they love or the like, no offense Taylor Swift, I don't connect.

I like the great. I don't, I don't exactly have sophisticated taste in music, but I like the grateful that I'm not bashing Taylor Swift or Taylor Swift fans. I, you know, I listened to I still listen to like bad trance music. I don't consider myself a musical sophisticated, but what what I'm saying is those moments of where you realize every single thing you don't like is just something you made up. And you know what I mean, just to think, you know what I mean, but there's a million other people out there who love the shit that you don't like. And then in that there's a sense of like, God, damn it. Well, that that that to me is is has been some a little unnerving somehow, which is sure. Well, you know, for whatever reason, help us, it helps us to create a grid and, you know, sort of sense of parameters and form. And the only problem in doing it is we, we overdid it. We overcooked the goose. Yeah.

So in relative reality, relative truth, you say it's okay to create a grid. You have a house, you have keys to the car, it's okay. But when it becomes maniacal, then it's worth, you know, maybe loosening the, the, the, the strictness of the grid. And in the perception that the grid is arbitrary, you can automatically loosen it. You go, okay, well, look, these things are shifting. I don't, I don't need to be a fanatic. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, you know, I don't need to panic over the fact that there's a possibility all the things I don't like her. Yeah. You don't have to get that upset that Taylor Swift had sold a lot of records, you know, it's like, okay. Apparently she's amazing.

But I don't mean to get that talk about Taylor Swift. I bet she meditates. How much you want to bet? I bet she meditated. I bet a billion dollars she meditates. I bet she's a really sweet person. I'm getting so soft. I feel like such a, I'm not making fun of her. My wife loves her. Everyone loves her. We just lost half your audience there. I don't, I don't know. And I haven't even listened to the album I'm talking about, so I've heard it's really good. This is not the point. This is what I, I wanted to ask you, relating to Bodhichitta.

And also what we've been talking about regarding that heart, the heart space and compassion being this quality of emptiness or there's a vastness to this compassion. Rap on brother, you're sounding good. Can you talk about the visual aspect of it? Like, in other words, like, there's a kind of like, when we talk about emptiness, I think for a lot of people to hear, Oh, actually, the thing we're going emptiness, the next year is compassion, actually. But, and within that, it does produce a kind of quality, like it's not like there aren't qualities. Is there a visual quality to this compassion? Yes. First thought, lucidity and vividness.

See it clearly without filters. And it's got amazingly detailed, that little shiver in the dog, you know, and just its little whiskers sort of vibrating, you know, it's extremely vivid and it's lucid. It's not, you're not confusing it for something else. And you're not overlaying on it. So immediate, vivid, lucid. What about auditory? Well, that's interesting because now you're really getting close to the mind when you talk about the sense gates and how they operate. So the auditory thing is probably more closely associated with feeling. But like what is, you know, when you hear like music, you know, it makes you feel a certain way. Yes.

So, but I would say also vividness, clarity, but also a kind of resonance. You can, you can, you empathy, you can resonate with that. You can feel that coming right through. Wow. What about smell? What does compassion smell like? Yeah. Good God. You know, I've always liked, I like what Trump Rivers Day said, fresh baked bread, you know, freshness.

Fresh. Is that. But it's not always pleasant. And sense of smell is really how we experience, you know, repulsion. Yeah. And, and attraction. This doesn't smell right. Something doesn't smell right in this situation, you know.

Yeah. Well, one. This is a good one, man. Yeah, I mean, your sense gates are really getting close to the, the gateway into real experience, you know. Yeah. Gets you out of your head a little bit, right? Yeah. Can you address for one last question, if you have time where it's, what time is it?

We're 1138. Do you have a question? Yes, I do. Can you address this idea. In society, in culture, that this shit is supposed to be hard. And the seeming paradox when you do encounter this spacious nectar like buoyant quality of compassion. It seems almost just the opposite of that. Like there doesn't seem to be a lot of struggle. If that was to, if you were to recognize that as your actual identity.

What about all the struggle stuff and all the like, this shit's supposed to be hard and painful and, you know, your hands are supposed to be knotted and your back supposed to be bent and you're supposed to be all withered. Well, just in all fairness, you look at the deities, you know, I was just reading Sansar, I can't say in the article about what the deities are, Tara, Green Tara. They're not all gnarled and bent over and in pain. Right. And they're representing some kind of quality and reality that is part of our true, true nature and that's embedded in the fabric of reality. And they could be, though, wrathful. They could be quite, you know, provocatively intense, you know, but they could also be like unbelievably beautiful and elegant, you know, so our sense of being gnarled and knotted is habitual according to Buddhism.

It's not intrinsic. It's impermanent. So that's, you know, that's, yeah, you're going, oh, well, who told you have to be that way? Go back. Take the, take the, you know, look at the, send it back. Yeah, that's so cool. David, Nick, you're the best. Thank you so much.

These conversations are so wonderful. They keep getting better for me like every, you know, with, especially with the practice happening and it's so wonderful. So thank you. And Duncan, a lot of your friends out there come and they study more, which is a really good outcome from this, I think, you know, they take the teacher training program or they take weekend workshops and so they're really welcome. There's a little community inside the Dharma Moon world, which is my community. That's really a Duncan. Like you got a reserve section in the house, you know, everybody's everybody's really welcome. I just, I just feel like I want to say that.

And this is what a terrible friend I am. Is it like, what is it a website? Like, well, why don't we post maybe some link on your site when we post the talk and there's a lot of programs coming up that that Dharma Moon, which is my company is doing in conjunction with Tibet House. So you go to bedhouse.us you'll see like a teacher training and some open open workshops and things like that and some information sessions and if you go to bedhouse.us and you scroll down you'll see it or you go to my website David Nick turn.com. And we'll post maybe you can post something but I really have developed a profound. It's like our tribes crossed, you know, and people are really, really, you know, talking about this stuff in a deepening kind of way, which is there is nuance starting to come into it. And it's really, I think that's our contribution, you know, there's a lot of people out there, given the initial relaxation instructions, initial mindfulness instructions and we certainly do that but I'm more interested in people kind of beginning to evolve their,

their, their, like what the kind of conversation we're having it's very, you know, rich. I feel. Yeah, I'm so lucky to have you as my meditation teacher. And I'm, yeah, I highly recommend if any if y'all are interested in Buddhism, or mindfulness definitely connect to these classes I've taken them they're great. Thank you, David. I am. I look forward to chatting with you more. And also I think we already mentioned earlier registering day. I think 11. We're at day 11. 11 registered. Okay, and just that yeah so you're texting me every day and I'm texting you back when you're doing meeting your energy challenge and I'm doing that with about 30 people right now.

Your phone must never stop. It's got to be very first thought I don't linger on it. Okay, cool. And some people are writing little haikus and sending a little video or a song. There's a beautiful creative energy around it. That's, that's really refreshing actually. So I'm glad I'm, I'm startled and glad and it also has worked with a couple of people who frankly, we're having a hard time getting a steady practice going. I need it. It's great. Yeah. Thank you, David. Okay, Duncan. I think you said thank you.

Okay. I don't care what you do. You don't have to do anything except listen. That's the most important thing and thank you for allowing me to have the coolest job on planet Earth. I hope that you have a wonderful week and I'll see you next week. Until then, Hare Krishna. All dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with. Get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne, Worthington, Stafford and Jay Farar. Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in store and we're never short on options at jcp.com. All dressed up everywhere to go. JCPenney. We are family. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JCPenney. Family get-togethers to fancy occasions, wedding season two.

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