Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 450: Miguel Conner

Episode Date: July 10, 2021

Miguel Conner, expert in Gnosticism and host of Aeon Byte Gnostic Radio, joins the DTFH! You can learn more about Miguel and Gnosticism on his site, TheGodAboveGod.com, and be sure to follow him on twitter! Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Squarespace - Use offer code: DUNCAN to save 10% on your first site. Shudder - Use promo code DUNCAN for a FREE 30 Day Trial!

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His new album Lies of the Sawmaster is available on X-Clex Records and it is a banger. And one of the big reasons for that is it has the rap stylings of the genius Johnny Pemberton, who by the way has got a live comedy tour coming up with Amy Miller. It starts July 15th at the Alameda Comedy Club in California, makes its way up the West Coast, then to Oregon, then to, that is the West Coast, then to, oh, it's the West Coast. And then he makes it to Vegas and Bisbee and Tucson, Arizona. It wraps up July 30th.

It's the Double Dust Off Live Comedy Tour. Go to Johnny Pemberton's Twitter for all those dates that's at Johnny Pemberton. On stage in a severely underfunded school district where the drama teacher has a meth problem, spent all the drama money on methamphetamine shots to keel it. The night before they began construction of their new set, is that what reality is? In this case, is the art director the Demiurge? And are we doomed to go through infinite renditions of some horrible watered down, duplicated, highly censored, garbage script that maybe at one time was an incredible Broadway show,

but now just sucks? And is there potential for liberation from this nauseating eternalism? Today, we're going to find out our wonderful and much esteemed guest. Miguel Conner is an expert in something that I am very interested in and confused by. Gnosticism. Maybe you have listened to his wonderful podcast, Aeon Bite Gnostic Radio. Regardless, you should listen to him now because just maybe he holds the keys to the theater that we are all currently trapped in.

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So much extra DTFH related stuff, including if you're interested, a weekly meditation group where we all gather together once a week, our journey into boredom that's every Monday and our Friday family gathering. Today we talked about, there are some folks out there and Nebulae is their own urine. Wonderful family gathering today.

Come home to your family. Patreon.com forward slash DTFH. Holy shit. We've got a lot of announcements friends, but these are good announcements. My meditation teacher, David Nick Turner, who I'm very lucky to have in my life, is offering a new course, Foundations of Mindfulness.

It starts July 19th and the link to get to that is going to be at duckatrustle.com. But if you want to just go there now, it's darmamoon.com forward slash Foundations of Mindfulness. You can just Google it and find it. Definitely take the class. He is a brilliant Buddhist teacher. I have to offer a personal thanks to one of my friends,

Drew Lewis, for making today's podcast happen. Our guest today describes himself as a garage philosopher. I think he's a philosopher, philosopher. He's an expert on Gnosticism and Alchemy and Hermeticism and all the topics that I love so much. And I was so lucky to be able to spend an hour with him today asking all the questions I've had for a very long time about Gnosticism.

This is one of my favorite podcast episodes in a long time. And I hope you all will stay tuned for today's guest. He is the host of the Aeon Bite Gnostic Radio Show. That's on YouTube. He's got a lovely Twitter at Aeon Bite. That's A-E-O-N-B-Y-T-E. Follow him on Twitter. Connect to this brilliant humanist website.

It's thegodabovegod.com. Now, everybody, please welcome to the DTFH for what I hope will be the first of many conversations. Miguel Conner. Welcome. Welcome on you. As you are with us. Shake hands.

No need to be blue. Welcome to you. It's the DTFH. Miguel, I'm so excited to have you on the show. Thank you so much for being here. How you doing? I'm doing great. Thanks for having me on.

As I've been preparing for our conversation today, I find myself in a wonderful predicament, which is I have so many things I want to ask you. I don't know where to start. So I guess I'm going to start with the most boring mundane, but I think essential question for folks listening who aren't familiar with Gnosticism at all or have only vaguely heard of it.

Can you give us an extremely brief history of Gnosticism? Because I'd rather get into the philosophy, and I know the philosophy and history intertwine, but it'd be nice to have a little background to use as the diving board that we're going to jump in to the subject from. Whoo. Yeah.

Let's see. The elevator pitch. I'm trying to sell you on these evil heretics 2,000 years ago whose philosophy seems very more relevant than ever. I'm sure as we'll talk about. I guess to start as a good baseline or foundation, I would tell your audience, think of the movie The Matrix. That right there is a modern Gnostic gospel

of any of your audience likes Philip K. Dick. Gnosticism hugely influence them. And if your audience likes the ideas of Carl Jung, you've got Gnosticism. Maybe on something even more modern, I'm starting to realize the Matrix is getting kind of dated for like Zoomers and so forth. But then think of the Lego movie or the TV series Westworld

or the recent film Bliss or something like that. But in short, the Gnostics were a movement that started or actually I would say gain maturity about 2000 years ago and sort of branched out into two ways. One is the pagan heretics and the other is the Christian Gnostics probably both started in Alexandria, Egypt, that great metropolis where all these ideas sort of stood and so much speculation.

We got the Neoplatonist mystic Hellenistic Jews, just a Coptic Christians. Great, but the Gnostics really caused a stir in the nascent Christian religion because they posited that we lived in a simulation as my friend Gordon White said, the Gnostics didn't say we lived in a false world because that idea definitely appears in the East.

Here in the West, the Gnostics said, no, the idea is not false. This is a faked world. We are trapped in a world that's been coded on purpose to keep us humans here, the concept of the prison planet. And we are here because of something that we have. We have something called a divine spark as the Gnostics called it 2000 years,

call it the soul, human consciousness. And this sort of divine spark fuels the very, in some texts, the very universe that we live in. And who trapped us here? The Gnostics, they had varying ideas. The heretics really were more positive. That matter just fell in love with this divinity and brought us down.

And here we are sort of understanding each other. But the Christian Gnostics had a lot of harsher grim. They foresaw like there was this pre-cosmic cataclysm. And basically in short, as a scholar Stephen Davis said, God went crazy and became us. Part of his essence fell into the universe and was coveted by these soulless mechanical beings that they call the Demiurge and his Archons.

And the Gnostics associated the Demiurge with the God of the Old Testament because they said there's no way this dude is the father of Jesus. This guy is bad news. But they also associated the Demiurge with other gods like Zeus or Saturn or Cyrus. And they trapped our cosmic divine spark here to feed on us. So us as humans, we had a duty, or for some of us humans,

the ability to wake up and realize that we had a shard of divinity, a shard of eternity within us. And we could basically awaken this cosmic divinity like Neo in the Matrix taking the red pill. And we could commune with this, as they called it, God above God. Some of the Gnostics called this God above God a Braxess who makes an appearance in the Midnight Gospel. Yes.

So we could be awakening by the teachings and facilitation of this Gnostic Revealer like Morpheus in the Matrix. Morpheus' job is to sort of help Neo sort of get himself to becoming the one. We can all become the one. The Gnostics saw this Gnostic Revealer as often as Jesus. They didn't see Jesus as sort of saving us from our sins but waking us up to our true nature

to be able to escape the wrath of the Archons here in this simulation. But they had other Gnostic Revealers, Mary Magdalene, Sophia, Simon Magus. Some Gnostics saw the Buddha and Zoroastra as Gnostic Revealers. And they could facilitate, which you might call Arnosis, a central point of the Gnostics, which is this direct experiential knowledge and connection with this God above God, this higher consciousness,

and also a revelation of this false world that we are trapped in. And this knowledge always seemed in their texts like this ritual, this astral travel ecstatic ritual. One thing about the Gnostics is they were an ecstatic shamanistic movement. You had to bring yourself into an altered state of consciousness. But at the same time, it's also a mode of self-knowledge. Self-knowledge is very important. Again, that scholar Stephen Davis said,

my salvation is the same as God's psychotherapy. If I go in and touch upon my divine spark and get rid of all the deprogramming and the false layers of who I am and make contact with my inner God, it's the same as if I took some shamanistic outer journey beyond the stars. So Gnosis was very important to the Gnostics. I think that's a good summary and you can break down other things like divine spark, reincarnation, how they deconstructed texts,

other things you might want to touch upon. But it's a good summary of who the Gnostics were. That is the best summary I've ever heard of Gnosticism. Thank you. For the listeners, I know there might be a lot there for you to unpack, but I think you probably gathered from it why I love Gnosticism and it will probably be perpetually confused by it. So here's a really blasphemous question for you

and hopefully after hearing your description of Gnosticism, people will even get the question, you've heard of the game Fuck Mary Kill. No, I have not. So it's like Fuck Mary Kill. If you had these people to choose from, let's say Donald Trump, the Loch Ness Monster, Santa Claus, you got to fuck one, marry one, kill one, what do you pick?

So Fuck Mary Kill, the Demiurge, Abraxas, Sophia, which one do you fuck? Which one do you marry? Which one do you kill? All right. Well, you want to fuck Sophia. You want to... Why?

Why fuck Sophia? Because Sophia in the Gnostic text, she is a part of God's mind that got lost in the matter. She is the divine goddess that's here to help us remember who we are, even though in some texts she is the reason why the universe fell. She is the disobedient part of God. The Gnostic saw God as a giant mind, this incredible mind that had all these features, truth, faith, honor.

Sophia Wisdom was one of them, and she is... She rebelled because, as some said, she is wisdom. She can't just be static in this timeless realm. She has to experience the world because Wisdom wants to experience, wants to know, some get pretty gritty, some think that she actually... She wanted to have an orgasm by herself because she was a woman. She's Luciferian, and she wanted to sort of rebelled

and go on her own way, so she falls into the world and she does give birth to the Demiurge. I think your questions might be hard because if I eff Sophia, her son is going to be furious with me. He's going to piss off the Demiurge! Yeah, exactly, the supreme being of this universe. So Sophia is a very mercurial, enigmatic figure. Obviously, the Gnostics based it.

If you look at some parts of the Old Testament, the Book of Wisdom and others, you will find, in Proverbs, you'll find this figure called Wisdom that doesn't seem like a metaphor. She's there with God at the beginning of time. She's there creating with God. So the Gnostics look at the Old Testament and say there's this fallen Wisdom. Even the Book of Enoch says Wisdom came to the world of men and nobody... everybody rejected her and she had to go to a cloud.

So they assumed this enigmatic figure was Wisdom and they made her part of their myths and their narrative. And of course, it's a great metaphor for we need to find our Wisdom in our mind so that we can become sane just as God needs his Wisdom to come back to this eternal realm so it can become sane. It's like God has gotten lost in some kind of mirror or something. Like God looked into something and has become completely like fractalized within that thing.

And we're all this strange reflection of a... But how is this possible? How is it possible that a Braxis or whatever the like outside the matrix, you know, progenitive force, how is it possible that a thing that is the source should become lost within the reality that emerged from it? Well, that's a great question everybody's been asking, right? And the Gnostic certainly speculated in their texts, different ideas. And this, remember, from the Christian and the Hermetic Gnostics,

even though it was persecuted and died out through our history, it did manifest through the Cathars, the Muslims, Sufis, the Jewish Kabbalists, the Persian, Mazdikites, and this Gnostic stream always has existed throughout history, but it's just so edgy because when you tell people this world is a prison, all your churches and institution and governments are controlled by these archons, the very David Ike we're getting, right? David Ike does create sort of a modern Gnostic myth. It doesn't go well with the powers that be,

but underground the Gnostics have always been able to thrive, but very edgy. But they had different explanations. I mean, as some have said, as soon as you have, let's say, in Hinduism, you have that with the Brahmin vision, as soon as consciousness asks a question, who am I? What am I? The answer is going to appear, right? Like, I am the Great Conscious. I already become fragmented. I am eternity. I am this. As soon as you become fragmented, you're already losing something, or you're also casting a shadow because as soon as you say, I am good,

there has to be a response in the cosmic mind. Well, what the hell is evil? Or you have to speculate, what is evil? What would evil look like? So these were the answers that as soon as the cosmic consciousness became aware, we had to happen. Evil had to happen and we had to be trapped. Others were more Zoroastrian. They said, no, no, that's bullshit. There's always been light and darkness. That's a principle of reality. So therefore, as soon as light starts to stir, darkness is going to wait for its turn to fight.

The Christian Gnostics again had this idea that wisdom, because they were so dependent on the Jewish scriptures, they were dependent on the goddess Ashira of the old Hebrews and a segment of the Egyptian. They said, no, wisdom rebelled and that caused a collapse. So they speculated, but again, these myths are trying to explain an existential truth, like the Neoplatonists and the Greek philosophers. They never said this was literal, but they said this is as close as we're going to get. That feeling that, where am I? You know, the truth in our monkey brains. We're never going to find out on this level of consciousness, Duncan.

So best we have is myth. You know, I'm talking Joseph Campbell, that myths are the closest thing to point to a transcendental truth. I want to thank Shutter for sponsoring this episode of the DTFH. Shutter is the network that just gets better and better and better because every month they release new, incredible horror content. And this month you're going to get slash or comedy, vicious fun about a horror movie critic who stumbles into a support group for serial killers featuring anchors, man's David Kekner, who I have seen live many times

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That's S-H-U-D-D-E-R.com, promo code Duncan. You can try Shutter for free for 30 days. I forgot to mention they've got Piranha. Remember that? You remember that movie? That used to make me shit hot bricks of fear fire anytime I ended up in a lake when I was a kid. Thank you so much, Shutter, for sponsoring this episode of the DTFH. One of the many things I love about Gnosticism is that it is where my mind goes when I'm taking like a very powerful psychedelic.

There is a sense of a kind of catastrophic situation that has happened where these two things that maybe were never supposed to meet have come together and can't sort themselves out in any kind of harmonious way and it is producing this feedback loop of suffering that we find ourselves within. You know, I don't want that to be the case, but that has been an experience I've had more than a few times on a variety of psychedelics. Just as though this horrible, never-ending debate has been going on between matter and spirit and it can't work itself out. It just keeps going and going and going and somehow we've become swirled into that. We're the battleground for it. Each one of us is the battleground of heaven and hell or matter and spirit or whatever animal and God.

And so you would expect, if this were the case, it would have to appear in every work of art, every story, everything. In the way that fish are wet, you would expect some strand of this to make its way into just about everything. Maybe you can help settle an argument, but I was telling my wife, I think Mary had a little lamb. Is some kind of Gnostic him or something? And then she Googles like, no, it's not. It was 1800s it came from. But have you ever thought of the words of Mary had a little lamb from the perspective of Gnosticism? And please, I will not be offended if you just say it.

Next question. No, I honestly have. And for some reason I'm thinking of William Blake and his Tiger Tiger and the Lamb of God. William Blake was hugely influenced by Gnosticism. So we might have to find a compromise in the forest of the night. Now let me just read Mary had a little lamb to you because sometimes I forget. I don't have it memorized. I have more William Blake memorized than Mary had a little lamb, but one second, I want to look it up.

It's a nursery rhyme. Again, I'm sorry, y'all. I know we have a great mind with us today. I'm sorry for doing fuck Mary kill in advance and I'm sorry for this, but I do think there's a connection. Mary had Mary had a little lamb. His fleece was white as snow and everywhere the children went that lamb was sure to go. He followed her to school one day. Wait, this is a some guy.

Of course, someone had to do a revision of it. I have to look at Mary. Oh, my God, revision or something. Yeah, somebody did it like someone decided they're going to do the point is Mary had a little lamb. His fleece is white as snow followed her to school one day. It goes something over the lines of it made the children laugh and play. And then the teachers turned it out. And so I've heard that the holy shit is the little lamb.

Is that Sophia is mayor or, you know, the the the the liberating Gnostic energy is school. The Archons or the teachers, the Archons casting out the light. And did that make its way into nursery rhymes? I don't know. But to me, that is obviously the matrix is one of the is the great modern example. To me, that seems to be a subliminal. I don't know description of this situation, which is this the light of God comes into the world. Book of John.

The in the beginning was the word. The word was made flesh. The darkness didn't understand it. I think is how it goes. Something like that. You know, I don't know. What do you think? No, no.

You hit it on the head because a the Gnostics were the first to write commentary on the Gospel of John. And many have said it's so Gnostic because this Jesus is very the Gnostic saw Jesus as having superpowers. He shapes shifter and he could walk through walls and he's sort of this this amazing being. And you look at the Gospel of John and the message and it's it gets very Gnostic. Now, as far as Mary, you're 100 percent right. And this is another important element. The Gnostics, again, they didn't just pull stuff out of their ass. They were looking at all the great minds.

One of them was obviously Plato. If you look at the allegory of the cave, that's a Gnostic myth and what 300 BC were trapped in a cave. And we don't these people, these archons are putting shadows and one of us can escape to the light and come warn others. Why are you trapped in looking at shadows instead of seeing? So the Gnostics saw that these great minds were giving Gnostic hints and truths. And then they just sort of they really brought it into maturity with the Christian Gnostics and the Hermetics. But one of Plato's ideas, the fall of the soul and its adventure in through the spheres and into matter. That's what Plato said.

The soul falls and it falls in our body. We are in the material world in Greek and in Judah in Hebrew. The soul is feminine. So this great story is clothed as this heroine who falls. But it's always this powerful story about Sophia falling into the world and how she's going to get out. You see that some have said that the Odyssey Helen of Troy is the soul falling into the clutches of she's the lamb falling into the classroom. But it's Troy. You look at Alice in Wonderland, a great Gnostic Neoplatonic tale.

Alice falls from a real world into Wonderland. What does the caterpillar tell Alice? You are a terribly real thing in a terribly fake world. And that's why you are in so much pain because she's the lost soul. Wizard of Oz right there. Dorothy falls into this fake world of Arkons, you know, fake money and witches. And the wizard is sort of the great symbol for the Demiurge because he's just another materialistic, profiteering person. So this idea of the soul falling in feminine, yeah, Mary, Alice in Wonderland, Dorothy, you see it over and over through literature, art and movies.

It's such a terrifying way of looking at the world. It creates the possibility for a real kind of paranoid way of looking at just about everything. I've been there. I know a lot of people listening have been there. Those moments where maybe you're too high, maybe you're just having a bad day and you look around and you think this shit isn't fucking real. Like not it's not whatever this is isn't anything at all. It's it's fake as fuck. And then you get, you know, anytime you meet anyone flipping out, it's a very common.

Like in the Truman Show when the light falls, you know, from the sky or he looks over and he sees the engineers. Yes. That's a very Gnostic film. And we all feel it. I have a question for you. This is something in my exploration of my contemplation of Gnostic ideas. The idea of this dimmy urge, this being and correct me if I'm wrong, the dimmy urge is jealous of the progenitor. And in that jealousy sees this like actual real reality and synthesizes it.

That's what we're in the synthetic version. We're in like the shitty like amusement park version. We're like in a low level Disney where the thing trying to be Disney world is never going to be Disney world, but it's trying to be the creepy fair or whatever. That's what we're in. Now, but this is something that I was thinking of. And this is something that really gave me the chills. Have you considered or have the Gnostics written anything about the possibility that we are the dimmy urge? The reason we're here is not because we're souls that have been trapped within matter, but that we are the dragon thing.

And the only way to protect the rest of whatever the rest of everything is from us is to keep us mesmerized and eternally trapped with our own narcissistic interaction with our own identity. Oh, yeah. I mean, what did the hermetic say as above so below? We are what happens in heaven corresponds on earth and Philip K. Dick was the one who said, yeah, you may think of Arkons, but we are the true Arkons. We give our consent. We dilute ourselves. We project outward. Some have said the demure just simply our human faulty way of seeing God.

As soon as we change our attitude on what God is, then we see the real God. But of course, that takes wisdom. So that is definitely possible. I mean, we could be, we could be maybe we sent ourselves down to play a role in a video game. You know, our true selves are up there and we've said, OK, you're going to forget Miguel and Duncan are going to forget who we really are. We're going to be down as meat sacks and this, you know, dimensional this video game talking on a podcast for points. So that's another possibility. Well, as I always tell, yeah, I always tell people.

Yeah. If you want these days when people ask me what nonsense I said, think of a simulation theory as Elon Musk and Neil deGrasse Tyson and others have said again. Nobody in Western history really talked about simulation theory except the Gnostics 2000 years ago and probably Plato and through with his allegory of the cave. And then change that to and then mix that with cosmic horror. Lovecraft. What does it say? We're not alone in the universe, but what's with us is far more powerful, probably indifferent or made us and wants to eat us. And if you step too far from the road, if you explore too far, if you ask too many questions, go too high in the sky.

These giant supernatural things, these lizard people, these archons, they're just going to eat you even if we're already. They created us and we're already their food. Combine them and you've got a good model for Gnosticism, except Gnosticism is not nihilistic. It's more Christian existentialist. We it's almost hopeless. But at the end of the day, we have the power if we wake up. But this is what I want to really want to get to, which is that part of it. I mean, this this is of all the of all the aspects of Gnosticism have confused me the most.

It's the Gnosis part. Is it enlightenment? Is this the Gnosis equivalent to Eastern ideas of enlightenment? Well, I mean, there are parallels between Buddhism and Gnosticism. That's it's pretty apparent, the illusionary world, how the self is almost unknowable, reincarnation, a deep sense of introspection. But Gnosis to start with, as somebody said wisely, it's not the result. It's what brings a result. When Neo takes the red pill, that's it.

That's Gnosis. He sees the world as it is. And Morpheus says you're the one, but he still has got to do the work. You still have to do the rituals to bring about your divine spark and reconnect it with the alien God so that in communion, you become fully divine. And what's interesting, what's misrepresented about the Gnostics is people say, well, they're just spiritual bypassers. They wanted to do these rituals and fly away to beyond the universe and commune with God and forget it. Now, they wanted to be transformed into fully humans to help the world. As one scholar called the Gnostics, they were Christian bodhisattvas.

To be fully human is to be fully divine, the Gnostics said. And you're not fully human unless you're down here helping others. They believed in healing, good works, trying to wake others up. Like, you know, hey man, can you wake up? Let's do these rituals. So Gnosis, as you might say, the entire process. But at the end of the day, that feeling of ecstasy, pure joy, that's indescribable. There's no name for that. I mean, salvation, I don't know.

Samadhi. Yeah, yeah, it's... Now, these rituals, I'm not familiar with any Gnostic rituals or what does this look like? Were they taking some kind of psychedelic? Is Kaikyan and the Illusian mysteries, is this wrapped up in it? Yeah, good point. If you look at the rituals, many are very similar to what we know of the mystery religions. That idea of ego death, like the Freemasons where they bury you in a coffin.

Or as you go down to Hades, I don't know if you've done ayahuasca. But one of the first things about ayahuasca is that every fear, every insecurity has gets thrown at your face a thousand times. You want to die. You feel like you are in the pit of a grave. And these rituals by the Gnostics were like that. It seems that you're going down to hell. Demons are tearing you apart. And you were able to withstand it, but it's all ego death. It's your ego just being torn apart.

When it's completely torn apart, then these rituals, which they probably reenacted, would send you up to heaven and through this star portal. And in the rituals that we know, there was ointments. There was drinks. Some church fathers said when the Gnostic, like this guy Marcus the Magician, he would put like some herbs and it would change and they would drink it. And the women would just change. They were stoned. And so then you go through these rituals where you sort of awaken. I'm sorry, what do you mean they would change?

They're consciousness. Yeah, they were high. They're consciousness or their bodies? No, they're conscious. They were an altered state of consciousness. And then you would have these ecstatic flights. And again, when I did ayahuasca, I did leave my body a few times. But you would be armed with these passwords because to the Gnostics, it was like a video game. Every level of heaven or the dimensions, some of them had like 365 dimension, each ruled by an archon.

You had to give this archon your password or a magical word so you could then go and make contact with the supreme mind and come down and be more fulfilled or individuated each time. Now that's just one rituals because some Gnostics as they've proposed, the Gnostics were so there were such anarchists that they divided into lodges. Something that the religion started with ancient Egyptian priests who were kind of disillusioned with the Roman Empire who brought these ancient mysteries to like dissatisfied Jews or pagans and they started talking and doing these rituals. That's how Gnosticism started because the ancient ancient Egyptian mysteries do have a lot of Gnostic elements and of course they added their own ideas. But the important thing as some scholars have said and that confuses people is that first comes the Gnosis. It's like, oh my God, I realize there's something wrong with the world. I feel something stirring. But what am I going to do about it? Well, I need to find the rituals or the people that can facilitate this Gnosis.

So therefore you have a varied group or catalog of rituals. Some Gnostics would do sex magic. Others would do sacramental practices in Rome. Others would do dancing or mystery religions. That's why people have called Gnosticism a parasite religion because it sort of infiltrates different religions like the Sufis in Islam or the Christian Gnostics in Rome because they wanted to absorb the rituals of different cultures and use them and adopt them into their own practices. But they always involved altered states of consciousness, ecstatic feelings and so forth. So the Sufis, the dancing dervishes that right there is a way you just slam coffee and you dance until you just feel Allah coursing through you. So that's what confuses people why the Gnostics had such varied rituals. But that's because as they came to different parts of the world, they needed to sort of find what was going on in the culture that they could adopt.

Obviously the mystery religions, ones that I've told you are from the early times in Alexandria. There's another one where simply doing contemplation until you have Gnosis. And you just start thinking about the material world. You start analyzing yourself until you start feeling something stirring in altered states of consciousness. There were some groups of Gnostics that would just sit in a group and tell each other problems. 2000 years ago they're doing group therapy. They're like, my emotions are broken. I need healing. I'm trauma. Carl Jung did call the Gnostics history's first depth psychologist because they saw our mind as the mind of God and they would really explore who we were very deeply. And they were into dreams, altered states of consciousness and just human development. Do you ever worry that technology or the potential of some technological superintelligence is a way for these archons to go from being a kind of what's it called an egregore,

or an invisible thing to a visible ruling force? Does that ever creep in when you're considering the hockey stick that we're looking at, that Ray Kurzweil and the transhumanists talk about? Oh shit, the AI is the archon descending or appearing to like, you know, finish the job to eliminate the last flickering bit of hope that will ever be able to achieve this Gnosis that produces the potential for liberation. Yeah, that's well said and I would agree. I mean, the archons are depicted as mechanistic, animalistic, soulless. They could easily, they sound almost like AI or some sort of machine. And of course that's exactly their goal is, is the complete snuffing of human awareness. It even says, I think in the Gospel of Philip, the mother of all sins is ignorance. To the Gnostics, that was the worst sin because anybody who's connected with themselves and consciousness will be a good person because that's really the natural state of a human being. You know, dogs don't do stupid things to each other. They follow their nature so the pack will survive. Human beings awake are going to be doing good and working together and be full of empathy. That's what Philip K. Dick called the divine spark. Empathy, I mean, that's something that's very rare in the universe and the archons, their job is to stifle our awareness, make us machine like, make us asleep so they can keep feeding. They're feeding off of us and that's always, that's always been their goal and they have different ways, obviously, in their texts. Sometimes it's, they talk about the Garden of Eden as an evil place because in the Gnostic texts, Adam and Eve are trapped there and Jesus has to turn into the serpent to wake them up.

He's like, look, all these fruits and beautiful things, that's what's keeping you trapped. Wake the fuck up and we can look right now, our phones and social media and all this bullshit dividing, conquer stuff you see on the internet and from politicians. It can be something materialist that makes us fall asleep, but also they use fear. One thing the Archons love to do and very much in the text is they love to rape. And this is the great analogy. They love to take away our agency. They love to make us fearful and they love to make sure that we disassociate with our own consciousness and fragment until we have no idea who we are. So yeah, as above so below, I would say AI, transhumanism is a great reflection of the Archons up there and the Gnostics would be horrified at it. They'd be like, fuck this. But you know what, I feel like with any of, you know, with transhumanism in particular, I've got many transhumanist friends. I just did the Singularity University podcast. I love Ray Kurzweil and I think that transhumanism and all of the technological incoming technological realities do prevent, do present the possibility of, you know, going even deeper into the never ending fractalizing quagmire of the material universe, but potentially another avenue for liberation that you can't have like what you were saying in the beginning. If you're going to have some self-reflective consciousness and then that's going to create the never ending iteration that we call reality, then within that you're always going to have the thing in its opposite, the dialectic or whatever.

And so potentially transhumanism, yeah, definitely it could be the thing where death, like that's what I love about Gnosis and it flips everything on its head. Like Christians hearing like, what are you talking about? Jesus was not the serpent friend, you know, that Gnosticism, and I think this is why the early Christians were like, fuck you Gnostics, right? I read that much of what we know about Gnosticism is from the early Christians bitching about Gnosticism and why it's wrong. But I think Christians might say, look, you're going to get Christianity and the first thing that's going to happen is the devil is going to take that pure, beautiful, very clear, all of it totally makes sense and warp it and turn it into something confusing. It's like the most confusing shit already that no one needs to do anything to it. But you know, I love your YouTube channel and you know, I've learned a lot from it. You know, I would like one thing I love, this is an old one from 2014 and I'm sorry, I can't remember the guess. But you know, you were talking about the Garden of Eden and you were talking about the weirdness of that story and he was saying, look, if you want to, you know, accept the Garden of Eden as it is in the Christian book of Genesis, you got to do some heavy fucking lifting for that shit to work because you've got a deceptive God, a plural deceptive God, they're saying we, they've become like us.

Who's the we? Who's the us? Who's the thing that came down and we're with the daughters of men? What the fuck is any of that shit? And it's in the very first book of the Bible that's in the churches where people are like, this is totally normal, totally normal. It's totally normal that God would keep us in a garden and lie to us that the tree would kill us. It didn't kill us. So, yeah, I mean, I'm going to side with the Gnostics when they're like, you're supposed to think that's fucked up. You're supposed to hear that story and be like, what's, why would you do that to us? Why would you put the tree there? As kids, I question it. Didn't you question it? When you're like, hmm, I'm going to get slapped for us, but I'm going to side with Adam and Eve on this one and the snake. Yeah, I mean, yeah, exactly. I mean, that's the forbidden words. God, I mean, I remember in my, I grew up in Western North Carolina and I remember in our algebra class, the algebra teacher taking a little break from teaching its math and deciding to like go into how a snake can talk. And yeah, and there's nothing in the, that the snake is Satan that was added later on. And then the flood story right there. I mean, I used to be, I was very lucky.

My mom was a very progressive Catholic and read Joseph Campbell. So she was like, oh, these are just myths of ancient people. But because that'd be like, you know, God is, he's drowning the sinners, but what about the babies in the kittens? What did they ever do to God? What a monster. It just made no sense. The unicorns. You dread the dinosaurs. He drowned the dinosaur. The dinosaurs, unicorns, the Sasquatch. God only knows. I'm sure there's a God literally only knows. I'm sure there's a plethora of adorable mythological creatures that got drowned because God was mad. In a few dumbasses. Or they got eaten in the Ark. Noah got hungry and, you know, ate all the, the griffins or something. The fucking gnomes. You found out the gnomes taste like chocolate. You know, started going down there in the middle of the night when he couldn't sleep.

Chomped up some gnomes. But, um, you know, I love this. I love this verse. You know, Jacob's ladder, by the way, another glorious Gnostic parable in cinema. If you haven't seen it, y'all, it's amazing. The original, I think they remade it, but the original is incredible. And his, you know, chiropractor is an angel. I was just going to mention that. Yeah, that's it. That's it. The back adjustment. He, this is my first encounter with Meister Eckhart was from his chiropractor and Jacob's ladder where he says the part of the soul that burns in hell is the part that clings to life. And wrapped up in that to me is the idea that if you want this grand reunion with the original Preginative Force, there's a price and the price is everything. Everything. You have to let go of all of it completely.

You can't hold on to this world at all. Amen. And yes, that's, that's what I love the Gnostics because of they took a really hard stance against evil and suffering very much like the Buddhists. They said, no, we're drawing the line. Like you said, there is only one way to become who we really are. And we just got to let go. That's the only way as the guy says in the movie, those, those demons will turn into angels. You got to let go. And most religions, oh no, materialism is okay. Everything's going to be fine. Oh, evil is the absence of good and we're going to be saved. The Gnostics and to an extent the Buddhists were like, no, we're punk rockers. We're going to spiritual war and we are not compromising one inch with you with the world with everything. We're getting the fuck out of here.

What does it look like? What to you? What does that look like from in the times that we're in now? What is that level of letting go look like? Well, I don't think it has to look like anything. I mean, yes, if you look historically, the Gnostics were part of the community. They were going to the universities. They were learned men and women. They're far more accepting of women. But again, it's your attitude. It's who you are. It's nothing. It's almost like it's nothing you're going to do. And it's your ideas that are going to make you dangerous. I mean, you look, for example, the Cathars, the famous medieval heretics that Dan Brown made famous and have been part of lore in Europe. They were very Gnostic and they would go around in southern France talking about they switched the Demiurge to Satan. But they said, no, this world is ruled by Satan. You got to give up your material possessions when you're ready. That's all they always said. If you want to be part of the inner circle, when you're ready, you join us.

But they would go preaching this existential crazy edgelord kind of shit and they were beloved by the people in southern France. The Catholics loved them. They were protected by the Knights Templar and everything. So my point is that sometimes it's not so much what you're doing is how your ideas are affecting people and are affecting others because the Cathars became an existential threat to the church, just like the Gnostics. And they had to bring down the weight of the church and of political power in Europe to take them down. The Inquisition started with the Cathars and then moved on to women and Jews and other people. So it's your ideas that are going to change the world because if you have the mind of God, Duncan, then you are endless imagination. You are bottomless innovation. You are just exploring. You are an artist creating just new reality and greater realities.

That's how you change things. You make the universe a more beautiful place, a different place, but that's going to piss off the archons. And as soon as you have those ideas, they're going to come after you hard. To me, when I'm thinking of this, it feels like there's a weird pathway here for lack of a better word, transcendence. This kind of like just waking up, completely waking from the material universe and being home. The wonderful thing that happens when you have the shitty dream where you're being mauled by a bear and then you remember, oh, I'm having a dream. And then you're like, oh, I'm just being mauled by a bear. It's a dream. And then you wake up and you forget about it. It's just done. To me, and I think the spiritual bypass critique maybe is related to the sense that there is this possibility of not, you know, they say in the world, but not of the world. But it feels like in Gnosticism, there's this idea of like, actually, you could actually not be in the world.

You can go and gain this power from the God, this remembrance of who you used to are. But your job is still in the world. Again, I call him Christian Bodhisattvas. It's almost like either we all get out or none of us get out. You're here in the wheel and it even talks. There's a book called The Secret Book of John and Jesus says, no, if you start waking up, look for somebody who's more advanced than you in lifetimes. And hang on to his robe or have him teach you how to wake up further. So the Gnostics did have sort of this Christian idea where you really had to help people, whether it's helping the poor in the material world or helping others try to wake up. There was never that idea of spiritual bypass. If anything, you look at the early Christian church, the Desert Fathers and the monks in the Byzantine Empire.

They're the ones that would go into caves or on top of trees or monasteries and starve themselves and we must be holy and piety. The Gnostics were the ones like, no, we need to be out with the people and connect with them at their level and great myth and stories that they'll understand and try to help them wake up. Whoa! That's so intense. So what you're saying, it makes me think, oh yeah, they didn't go anywhere. They're here just as much as they ever were, but the way that we know them is through all the art that gives that fluttering feeling in your chest. Where you're like, wait, no, that's more than just a movie. I'm sorry, it might be cheesy and honestly, I'm so sick of people saying it's like the fucking Matrix. Honestly, it's like so annoying.

I know it's like the goddamn Matrix. That's why it's a great fucking movie. It's so annoying. It's the most powerful modern myth we have today. It used to be like the Wizard of Oz, every analogy when we were young was the Wizard, even though the Wizard of Oz is Gnostic. People relate to the Matrix because as a myth, I think we all know it's kind of true. What does Morpheus say? You know there's something wrong with the world. You don't know what it is. It's like a splinter in your mind driving you. It's the most popular myth today because all of us subconsciously know it's true. You know that song, Leonard Cohen, Everybody Knows?

He was influenced by Kabbalah, so we all know unconsciously that the game is rigged, the dice was loaded from the start, and we are trapped and I think as humans, beings, we're never going to be satisfied where we are. Maybe we are aliens because we're always looking for something else. So it's like something else, it's not just a phantasmal aspiration. It's a legitimate homesickness, but the kind of homesickness you get when you have amnesia, I guess. Bingo. I don't know what I'm fucking homesick for, but I miss it so much. Yeah, there's a saying by this Egyptian writer called Naguib Mahfos,

and it says, home is not where you are born. Home is where all your attempts to escape cease. And as humans, we're always trying to escape something. Some of us are misguided and we escape through material things, TV, sex. Others still feel that our home is just somewhere else and we're always trying to escape. I don't think we humans belong, but we can be good caretakers of the cosmos even if we're trapped. Whoa, that's so beautiful. So the invitation is not to escape, the invitation is to be here and find out a way to articulate this truth so that it inspires other people. Exactly.

Wow. Yeah, even Joseph Campbell used to say, and he's obviously going with Hinduism and Advita Vedanta, but he used to say, yes, the universe is a whore. Anybody who says that it isn't is completely delusional. What did somebody say? The first sound of the universe was an om, it was munch. I mean, who the hell created a universe where everything has to eat something to survive? That's demented. It's demented.

A universe of viruses and death and Taylor Swift. I mean, it's just demented. And Joseph Campbell, you say that. Yeah, the universe is a whore, but you got to be okay with it. In fact, you got to embrace it. You got to say, this is bad. I accept it. In fact, I love it.

And let's work together to make it better. That's that if, yes, I think that prescription is ruins the entire game. If the if the game is one of fractalization or division or infinite, constant, schizoid, never ending shattering, then that's the only way that would stop it is you just it's God, what is it that my meditation teacher, I'm sorry, David, if you are listening this because I totally ruin what you miss quote and then it's going to get on social media and they'll get misquoted more. It's from a Buddha scripture. It's the idea that, oh God, I'm sorry. I forget.

I forget. I even mentioned David. It's the idea that everything is already broken. It's broken beyond repair. It was broke a long time ago. And so like going around and like doing this, you know, the sad thing or something that someone loves shatters on the ground and they're like, oh my God, get the pieces and the glue and we'll get it back to where it was.

And but it keeps breaking and breaking and it's just it's broken. Just enjoy how beautiful the little bits of glass look when they're shining in the light. And that's the best you can do. And maybe in there, the frenzied, never ending attempt or shift damn thing around so it makes sense ceases and then some peace comes. Right. Is that is that the idea? I think so.

Yeah, I love it. Yeah, just accept everything's broken. I think the Gnostics people ask when the end of the world is the Gnostics said, no, the end of the world already happened once God fragmented and became crazy. That was Armageddon and we're sort of floating in the flotsam and Jetsam of this. And we've got to swim back to the beginning. Even Philip K. Dick used to say how Simon Megas and Paul and Buddha, they were actually traveling backwards in time and said with us humans because they wanted to get to the

beginning. One thing that the Gnostics were obsessed with what's why they were called Debs psychologists is they always wanted to go back to the Garden of Eden to history to their own past because I know we live in a time that says, oh, live in the present, blah, blah, blah. But the truth is, all of us, each one of us has an amazing amount of trauma. Even if you don't have trauma, we've got ancestral trauma. We've got our country's trauma.

We've got the God's trauma. So they thought they wanted to go back to find out what had happened and understand it and in a strange way rectify it, even if it was just sort of fiction or trying to write about was it. I mean, what does the story Pinocchio says? If you want to find the end, go back to the beginning and pretend that's in Pinocchio. In the Gospel of Thomas, the apostles ask him, well, how do we know how the end is? And Jesus says, the end, if you want to know the end, go to the beginning and you will rule

over all. So in other things, again, they were like history's first depth psychologists. And again, that's why I liked them because I got tired of these religions saying, well, live in the present. How come I've got all this trauma as a kid? I mean, I've got all this shadow and versions and dreams and unconscious behavior. I'm like, I keep getting in the same fight with my wife and it reminds me of my dad. So I don't want to live in the present anymore.

I want to find out how I got so fucked up. Wait a minute. I thought I was the only one who got in the same fight with his wife that reminded him of his dad. Like we're programmed. Yeah. No, all of us. Holy shit.

That's crazy. You too. Yeah. I know. Like, well, it's, you know, isn't it the way it's been described to me is it's more along the lines of like, yeah, the present with all your apps running, which that's your trauma. That's your story.

That's the whole, all of it, which is a very real thing. Yes. That fuck that present. I don't want to be in that neurotic, never ending vortex of self criticism and meeting my own narcissism, meeting self, you know, this infinite horror horrible. We are the Demiurge. Yes. Yeah.

But that's the store. That story is the thing I'm where I've had it happen a few times where you wake up after you've been in the horrible fight with your wife after you've been in the some awful thing has happened the night before and it's like your system before it boots up what happened the night before you're laying in bed and you're like, ah, what a beautiful day. And you know what I mean? And then you remember, oh fuck my, I got a DUI, my car got impounded. Oh my God.

I said that to whoever, you know, but before that it is, I think that's what they mean when they say the present moment is that that eternal, fundamentally good reality that is uncorruptible. You can't. What are you going to do? Like the way to give him Trump a Rinpoche, but it is, you know, what look at color, just look at color, color is perfect. What are you going to do?

Like who's going to, you know, maybe color relatively, you can have some problems. Certain colors like don't look great together, but like, you know what I mean? If you just see a shade of green, you wouldn't be out of your mind if you're like, look at that malfunctioning fucking color there. You know, that's the, that's the, that's the story. Maybe that's the Demiurge. It's just a bullshit story. Yeah.

Yeah. Saying yes to the moment as they say, yeah. Or what we call it, what we say in AA acceptance is the solution to all my problems. But I agree a hundred percent, but I also agree with Carl Jung and marketing and Edward Bernays and all that, that what we are Duncan or Miguel is a small fraction or what we think we are. And the rest is this giant iceberg of shadow material trauma complexes and, you know, the powers that be know this from Edward Bernays to Steve Jobs, I'm in marketing and we all

know you don't market to somebody's consciousness. You market to their unconscious because that's who's making the decisions in life. When we go shopping, as science has said, we have already made a decision five seconds before a conscious mind has made the decision. They've tracked the part of our brain. So what we are is ultimately a construct. And if this concert wants to enjoy the present, fine. But I believe I want to understand the entirety of who Miguel is this vast ocean of unconscious

just as I want to explore the mind of the true God. And I think that's what my goal is. And that's why I respect Gnosticism because I'm not going to accept that this little fragment, this thing, this iceberg over the water is all Miguel will ever be. And same with Duncan. Duncan is just this divinity and there's so much going on. Yeah. When you and your wife are fighting or my are fighting, I think there's about 40 people

fighting at the same time. There's my wife when she was 10. There's me when I was 15. There's me who got hit by my drunken alcoholic dad. There's me who got rejected at prom. There's my wife and her, you know, there's a lot going on. We are Legion. I was about to say it.

We are Legion. We are Legion. Somebody throw me into some fucking pigs, please send me over the cliff. I'm ready. I think that's what Jesus means. I think he's doing therapy. We are Legion a swarm. Oh, Miguel, thank you so much for this.

I what a joy to get to ask you all you've cleared up so much. I created a lot more confusion and a really beautiful way for me. I'm just so we're lucky that we have you. Can you tell people where they can find you? Sure, sure. And yeah, to be glad to come on again and talk about different aspects of NASA. We've only tip of the iceberg. The Legion is still hasn't been covered even close, but my God, what a great tip.

I mean, yes, and I will any time you have the time I would love to have you back on. Awesome. For my website is surprising. Nobody the God above God dot com because it has to be Nostics. And there you'll find information on my podcast, a on bite, my books, my articles, social media, movies that I've made, short movies, anything you want. If you want to contact me with some questions, please do so.

But everything you need and a ton of articles on Nosticism, introductory to go to the God above God dot com. Awesome. Thank you so much, Miguel. It's been a real pleasure. Oh, I had a blast. Thank you. That was Miguel Conner, everybody. All the links you need to find Miguel will be at duckatrustle.com, or you can just go to his website, God above God dot com.

A tremendous thank you to our wonderful sponsors, Squarespace and Shutter and a big thank you to you for subscribing to the DTFH. I love you so much. I'll see you next week. Until then, Hare Krishna, stay out of the matrix. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JC Penney, family get-togethers to fancy occasions, wedding season two. We do it all in style, dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with. Get fixed up with brands like Liz Claybourne, Worthington, Stafford and Jay

Ferrar. Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in store and we're never short on options at jcp.com. All dressed up everywhere to go, JC Penney. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JC Penney, family get-togethers to fancy occasions, wedding season two. We do it all in style, dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with. Get fixed up with brands like Liz Claybourne, Worthington, Stafford and Jay Ferrar. Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable.

Check out the latest in store and we're never short on options at jcp.com. All dressed up everywhere to go, JC Penney.