Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 463: David Nichtern

Episode Date: September 18, 2021

David Nichtern, amazing mindfulness meditation teacher, re-joins the DTFH! Duncan and David are doing a live podcast on September 22nd! Click here for more information. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: BetterHelp - Visit betterhealth.com/duncan to find a great counselor and get 10% off of your first month of counseling! Purple - Visit Purple.com/Duncan10 and use promo code DUNCAN10 for $200 Off any mattress order of $1500 or more! Feals - Visit feals.com/duncan and get 50% off and FREE shipping on your first order. Shudder - Use promo code DUNCAN for a FREE 30 Day Trial!

The NTT IndyCar Series. It's human versus machine. Against all odds, every single lap. The ones who risk it all, battling not just each other, but the menaces hidden within the most challenging tracks and motor sports. Pushing 240 miles per hour and taking 5Gs to the neck just for fun. Fractions of a second lost are gained in every corner, adding up to defeat or victory. Experience the Children's of Alabama Indy Grand Prix this Sunday on NBC and Peacock at 3 o'clock eastern. It doesn't matter who you are, what you have, life can be pretty damn hard. Without a healthy mind, it's even harder. Check out online therapy with betterhelp.com forward slash Duncan. Be on your way to a little more ease. That's betterhelp.com forward slash Duncan.

Greetings, friends. It's me, Duncan, and we're going to start this podcast off with what your dog is actually saying when he barks. Here we go. Okay, so there's the sound of your dog barking. Now we'll just run that through a quantum refabrication tubule. Let's hear what your dog's saying to you. If with mindfulness's rope, the elephant of mind is gathered all around, our fears will come to nothing. Every virtue drop into our hands. Tigers, lions, elephants, and bears, snakes, and every hostile foe. Those who guard the prisoners in hell, ghosts and ghouls and every evil wraith. By simple binding of this mind alone, all these things are likewise bound. By simple taming of this mind alone, all these things are

likewise tamed. For all anxiety and fear, and pain in boundless quantity, their source and wellspring is the mind itself. Has he who spoke the truth declared? Bad news for you. It appears that your little pup has plagiarized Way of the Bodhisattva by Shanti Deva and is quoting from that beautiful text without crediting the author. And that means we're going to have to vaporize your dog. Here we go. Gonna miss that little pup. And I guess I shouldn't mind. After all, the dog did plagiarize. I'm gonna miss licking that dog. And that was he vaporized my dog by Clint French. I want to thank Magnolia Stirling for

giving me the rights to that song. Improperty. Also a big thank you to Danielle Tramone, Galex Norway, Ima Holm-Compson, and the Candy Sisters over in Black Mountain for your help in getting that off the vinyl into my computer. And of course, to Red Star Recording and the three North Wins who are the folks who managed to do the EQ on that on top of what my editor Aaron has already done. And again, the excavator folks who managed to unearth the vinyl from the cemetery where it was in the casket of Clint French really needed your help. You came through in a bind. It's so hard to get excavators to dig up cemeteries after working hours these days because of COVID. So a big thank you to them for getting that thing above ground where it

belongs. And most importantly, a big thank you to Daryl Angleson, the producer and the Wakanski Corporation, as well as Avel Kelinor, the Phoenix man and his dream legion of Saints for blessing the album and for producing the portal through which that music can and will forever come from that realm that was and will be again and is if only you have the courage to get into your heart and experience reality from that precious soul place instead of the confusing, maggot-written vortex of materialist rot that so many people find themselves manacled to not by anyone's fault but their own. We've got a wonderful podcast for you today. David Nickturn is here with us. He's my meditation teacher and it's going to get deep.

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And we're back. You know I love my Patreon family and I'd like to invite you to join us. Every week we gather together for a meditation in what's called our family gathering and you never know what's going to happen. But I'll tell you what happened today on this precious sacred day. We hatched a plan to create a book of erotic absurd short stories and we're going to have that to you by Halloween. At least that's our goal. You could even participate if you wanted to just by going to patreon.com slash DTFH sign up. You're going to get commercial free episodes of the DTFH. You're also going to get access to our discord server and if you want it bad enough you can hang out with us in person on video every Monday and Friday. And we're also going to have

a couple of meetings as we evolve our erotic short stories for this book that will be released on Amazon and we're already planning on that. So if you don't want to join the Patreon at least you'll be able to pick up a book of erotic short stories many of them having to do with various cryptids including the Loch Ness Monster at least based on what happened in our family gathering. Today that's patreon.com slash DTFH and now the podcast. Today's guest David Nicktern is a meditation teacher. He teaches mindfulness meditation. He's amazing and he's got a free meditation teacher training coming up and I'm going to be doing I guess you could say a live podcast with him on September 22 from 6 to 7 p.m. All the links you need to get to that will be at

dougatressel.com or you can go to darmamoon.com forward slash info-session. Also David's written some pretty awesome books including creativity spirituality and making a buck and awakening for the daydream if you're interested in Buddhism if you're interested in meditation these are excellent books for you but don't go reading them yet listen to this episode of the DTFH with the great David Nicktern David welcome back to the show thank you so much for coming back on my pleasure now let's just dive into it the last time you were on we talked about enlightenment I think we did we put the cart before the horse is my question because and it leads actually to the actual question which is maybe you can clarify something that has confused

the shit out of me on and off ever since I read it or maybe I heard him say it what did chogyum trump a rampage a mean when he said that confusion is a quality of enlightenment or a condition of enlightenment or on the continuum of and I just don't understand that do you know what I'm talking about well they're the basic premise that I think you're pointing to is what's called co-emergence that the enlightened possibility co-emerges with the confused possibility and they're really two different you know perspectives on addressing the exact same situation okay and they co-arise so in in in a kind of certain perspective you're not trying to get rid of the confusion but you're trying to see the enlightened possibilities within

it okay I think I intelligence in it okay so let's just I'll just create an example you're I don't know you're you're in a hurry to get somewhere really important job interview you get rear-ended by somebody who's looking at their phone you're you're pissed you're probably not gonna get the job because of this you've got to stop because your car got screwed up you get out of the car and is this the moment where you have a decision to make between like being angry and telling them to fuck off or dealing with it in some civil way is that the co-emergent possibilities that you're talking about well sure right in that moment if you freeze frame it you like your mouth is opening and you're going you know

right about before you say something there is a moment and you do have myriad possibilities in that moment now once your karma kicks in and you initiate a habitual response to the situation shoot them whatever happens next is going to be a cascading rippling you know an unconscious kind of process okay so that let's talk about that moment before the karma kicks in yeah it's the moment between the last moment and the next moment called the fourth moment so that's actually what it's called yeah the fourth time and I'll tell you why there's the past clearly right yeah there's the future those are easy to kind of wrap your mind around and then everyone makes a big deal about the present right yes but so where is that well it's gone okay it's gone okay so we

call that the fourth moment the fourth time it's not even the present wow so what is it does it exist in this universe like what is it yeah it's it's you could argue that it's the only thing that exists in this universe with any kind of substantial existence because the rest of it very quickly cascades into memory right the past is all memory the future is all anticipation and the present if we're chasing it becomes the past or the future depending how you shape it so the fourth moment would be kind of the edge the razor's edge of actual experience arising in the moment in in the moment okay so where is identity in that moment there is none okay so this is before basically like this is the i don't know tv's right they

apparently like you know if you try to film your tv you see those flashes on it because you're seeing in between the frames i guess or i don't know what what it is with digital tv's now but is that that we're talking about here is this is sort of like you have a timeline the timeline's your karma it's all your shit but then simultaneously existing well this is this is a metaphor that you're using which is frames of film creates the illusion of continuity right we are convinced we're watching continuous experience but act in actual fact there are 30 frames each second going by and if you were tuned to it you and your mind was quick enough you would see the space between the frames as having its own type of um non-existent existence right yeah this is like matter and

anti-matter or something it's it's it's it's it's it sounds almost like even though it's saying a parallel universe implies it's not here that is kind of what it sounds like just this well it's the in the world of seeming continuity right which is where we live called samsara there's a sense of ongoing experience that's being had by a particular person named duncan blah blah blah when you look for duncan of course his name gets peeled away his beard gets peeled away his podcast gets peeled away shirt gets peeled away then his skin gets peeled away and then his bones get peeled away and duncan kind of doesn't have a fixed identity in that in that fourth moment can you see that yes it's not a fixed identity it's it's a very rapidly um morphing sense of some kind of experience but

hard to say so is to get back to the um co-emerging yeah is that from this perspective is the duncan part of the situation considered to be confusion and the and the and the fourth moment part considered to be enlightenment and the two are sort of wrapping around each other to well you know we've talked about this before but this is the absolute and the relative truth which is a very you know important buddhist idea and then the third truth is the inseparability of the two so that's a very important one too uh yeah you know when you try to peel out duncan from from the kind of sense of openness spaciousness you know pure awareness uh you end up out in space without you know without any kind of gravity without any kind

of reference point and there's something a little bit uh etheric about that and when you try to peel that out of the duncan thing you end up with a really solid thick heavy dense mess right so the mix of the two is where you could probably can say the enlightened possibilities lay is is in understanding the how they intertwine okay okay i see so trying to like trying to trying to find a thread in there to oh that's the enlightened part and that's the confused part well they do that and they say some sorrow in nirvana right so nirvana is equated with enlightenment well nirvana is really equated equated with the kind of cessation of that confused part but you could say depending on which language you're talking that the enlightened possibility is really the um complete

you could say uh understanding of the totality of the situation okay so like my friend michael calls it the mickey show it's still going on but it's not you know it's not like life and death at that point okay yeah oh god what a show what we all have it right you know it doesn't don't you find your meditation practice gives you a little bit of humor about the the duncan show yeah yeah oh i mean it is i'm that is just an understand anytime i find myself doing my show like one of my great uh magic tricks here's here's a good one i just did this yesterday i for whatever satanic reason i've decided to get in the golf and so i i go to the driving range and i'm hitting balls i don't know what i'm doing i'm right maybe it's just because like you if you really want to experience

blasphemy just try to take up golf and get around all those stuffy ass fucking golfers they all know your you don't belong the fucking guys in the golf shop hate me they just hate i don't know what it is what i did maybe it's because i have a beard i want to get good at golf i want to become a pro just so when i get the trophy i can be like those guys at that fucking golf shop or assholes anyway that's not i guess that's a show too but here's a favorite trick of mine which is having hit balls ripped up this poor driving range use the wrong clubs i go home and i find myself saying to air and my wife i'm just really busy right now what the fuck is that you know what i mean that's like and that just pops out that doesn't that's not like i plan to say i'm hearing myself say i'm

busy and i'm like i just spent like 45 minutes flailing around a driving range i'm not busy so that's it right that's the story that's the the abstract watcher that we talk about the witness kind of thing you just notice it and you're not really attached to it you're not going down the rabbit hole with it you're not judging it secondarily you're just noticing i just said that right you're not okay you know and you could say it's a little detached in a way you know but but but it doesn't mean you have to completely detach from the feeling of it it just means you become aware of the fact that there's a certain mechanical thing that just happened right right autopilot just happened autopilot dense and and all that does is it spawn it doesn't do anything except spawn anxiety right

like that's the that's the idea is like you're just sort of you're like some kind of karma a caterpillar just spraying out like dense weird neurotic karma caterpillar you know what i mean like they spit they spin they're cuckoo it's like you're spinning this like it's and it's so intricate the the the the the the it's intricate and i think it's like i mean is it wrong to call it skillful in the sense that you can just spontaneously like reproduce this the you could just spontaneously reproduce the conditions that are keeping you bound to a very specific shit frequency i mean there's some skill in that right yeah i mean basically that is mindfulness is you instead of being bound into it you're noticing it and and then the next choice is whether to um shift

slightly the mood or the tone of it which is kind of more like the mahayana practice just shift it over a little bit and go i think i will say something nice to my wife now for god's sake you know what i mean yeah and and see what happens when i do that you know but what about the what now why why why is it so surprisingly difficult to make that shift not just with my wife or whatever it's just like when presented with this like like muddled binary you know between you being kind to i don't know make it like maybe a little too um reductive or being a shithead why why is it so addicting to be the shithead wow so that kind of brings us to our topic of the conversation today in a way doesn't it that was like almost if this was if this were music that would have

been the prelude yes okay our topic by the way today is suffering truth of suffering so uh and it is um so fundamental to the buddhist way of analysis you know uh which is that here's your hero because you're talking about enlightenment and this person supposedly attained that particular thing and maybe uh is a major archetype or prototype you know prototype and he he gets enlightened for 49 days wanders on the forest without saying a word to anybody that's the story then he meets his old partners you know the the yogis uh you know who he had studied with and they ask him what is his dharma now because he looks kind of like relaxed and luminous and kind of somewhat more harmoniously orchestrated than they feel and so okay what's your dharma

and then he proclaims the four noble truths which is famous famous in the history of religion this is as good as it gets it's the ten commandments level of of of you know profound utterances by you know special special travelers and the first truth is the truth of the pervasiveness of suffering and i could just hear the kind of in these yogi's minds who've been trying to achieve bliss and and heavenly you know unobstructed sense of pleasure and they look at they're looking at each other and they're looking at him and going like i think i might have the wrong channel on this this tv set and then he goes further uh to explain it he says what the suffering is and what the cause of it is so that's the second noble truth and then the third one is he's saying

you know what there's a way to um to really remove the causes of it and conditions of it and that that's going to shift reality around the way you experience reality and then the fourth one is here's a pathway to do that a method which you and i've talked about before last time we were talking about what's the method somebody's applying and he did go that far out on a limb to say try this you know yeah so going right back to the beginning in your story and in what we're talking about what is the nature of the suffering that's being described and i find it helpful to there's four different sort of categories of it and see which ones apply okay the first one is not getting what you want okay second one getting what you don't want yeah okay there's a difference third one

is called the pain of alternation you get what you want and then you don't she loves me she loves me not that kind of situation and that in itself is sort of like unsettling and the fourth one is that kind of all pervasive or underlying which means that even when none of those things are explicitly happening there's a kind of room tone of of discomfort okay which i like you know you'll understand this analogy i use the analogy of a ground hum in a recording studio yeah okay yeah and it's just as soon as you stop speaking and stop playing music you're hearing this sound and it's been there the whole time so those four are based on that and what what it's really saying is our experience is pervaded by those it's you it's you if you look if you tried to take your

sweater you you can't just wash them out and then you have the sweater and you have those things it's part of the fabric of the sweater it's baked in baked in so that's where we start if you want to start with the buddhist for you there's other versions of reality in which there's bliss and unity and all kinds of good news i highly recommend them for for but i'd recommend them for the pessimists in the group because this is fundamentally more optimistic it's saying there is a problem but there's something you can do with it but so whoever buddha encounters initially you're just saying the eyebrow raising part is that they had been kicking around this idea that look we can actually find a zone mentally

where there is no suffering whereas it seems like what he's saying is that zone doesn't exist there's all pervading suffering but if you change the way you relate with that suffering then there are other possibilities there's other possibilities and so they're like so just just to say there is suffering or the suffering of suffering or the suffering of getting what you want or the suffering of not getting what you want or the suffering of getting what you want than not getting what you want which is what the people writing like all the social media addiction programs are using to keep you hooked and then and then all pervasive suffering and this flew in the face of this other idea of

things because it's almost like he was saying it's everywhere man it's like you the realm of the gods is going to have suffering everywhere so it's just the idea the analysis is one of like okay look where you're you're running away from your it's not like chasing your tails like running from your tail running from your own tail that's beautiful okay that's so cool running from your own tail that's really funny so we so that's that so this is just the realization of like look what happens if we stop running away from this thing yeah and then that puts you in relationship to it where you're examining it contemplating it uh not not trying to get around it you know yeah yeah running from your own tail that's i gotta remember that i'm gonna use that that's good

cool i'm sure i stole it from something i'm sure i didn't make that up i'm sure that came from something i'm sorry whoever it came from so this is you think bb king made up that lick but yeah look i get i like this and i and it's i love that we're talking about it because it's something i've been playing around with you know when someone when you're in a lot of pain and you get around someone and they try to re analyze your pain for you you know what i mean you get around somebody you're all fucked up and they go but you know look on the bright side there's uh you know somewhere someone's probably getting their face chewed off by a badger you know somewhere someone's having um a mountain dew bottle removed from their rectum and it's

going you're you're on a run you're on a run duck get five of them and you win a free trip to bermuda i mean oh somewhere somebody fell into a bit of throwing stars uh look i'm not gonna do five but the point you get the point it's it's like versus where you're feeling like feeling the suffering and someone says yes yeah that is you are suffering yes or somebody says oh isn't that interesting right where it's not trying to revise for you or tell each point out the most obvious bullshit out there thinking that that's ever made anyone feel better in the history of feeling like shit no one has been like oh my god i didn't think of the badger guy yeah you know and the guy getting his face chewed off by a badger someone would have some other thing like you know well the badger

doesn't have rabies it could be worse yeah i like the history of feeling like shit that's good but yeah right well it's alright so so that's a good title for a book the history of feeling like shit starting from day one so david so so yeah so it seems like if you're doing that to yourself you know if you're if like which is like feeling like shit and then coming up with some ridiculous silly antidote which is like well at least i'm not this or that right then really all you're doing is still running from your tail right the idea is like you're you're feeling this yeah sure heaviness and then instead of running away from it you start sitting with it contemplating it well yeah and you know we as you know we emphasize a couple of key uh you know let's say

tools for for working with what you're talking about and one is curious inquisitive like the second noble truth is what are the causes and conditions that bring that about that's a really good question if your car dies on the side of a road and you just have a nervous breakdown you might want to just think well what actually is happening my car maybe the battery is dead maybe this happened maybe that have maybe a flat tire so the curiosity is one the second thing is gentle and we talk about that a million times why add further aggression to that situation it's already laced with it why add more as a as a attempt as a attempt at a solution right i think most of us know that adding aggression almost never is a solution for almost everything right okay and

then the third one might be like a quality of precision you know okay this is going to require a little bit of uh using projna you know projna sword the intelligence you know yes intelligence yes okay thank you feels for supporting this episode of the d t f h i love feels cbd cbd isn't about what you feel it's about what you don't feel like stress anxiety or pain cbd is a panacea i love it having problems sleeping want to relax a little bit after a hardcore workout or just want to chill out cbd is the way to go i was on the precipice of just throwing in my fucking hat and getting addicted to xanax that's how bad my insomnia was but thanks to feels i can sleep better i know

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what is that going to possibly do to but that seems to be for a lot of people the like the go to is like all right let me just push harder on the thing let me just like try to shove the thing into a working condition it never works i try that all the time it now i mean it's like i've i i've had doctors like if i have a you know when i've gone in for physicals and if there's like a boil or something i've been fucking with and i've had doctors just say don't touch it anymore just leave it alone like you know you shouldn't just let it be on its own so i like that because i think that's a real for me that's one of my go tos is like oh i'll just like get mad at myself for being mad at somebody else well you know aggression is the one thing that i remember

hearing trunk perinviches say is a dharmic that just will not get you started in in a kind of path of uh integration or further intelligence or uh compassion aggression uh is is is the you know and that's why it's sort of circumscribed in in a sense and why you talk about things like a hemsa or non-violence you know a fundamental approach of i'm not going to add that to this if i can possibly help help it it's not going to help it is aggression solely relegated to like anger or anger and it's like aggression like the the babies of anger or is it just there's aggression a thing that just shows up in all aspects of like how to deal with things like do you know what i'm saying like does it does it always indicate anger or can you have aggression

minus anger well you know all these words can be parsed for example there is the notion of enlightened anger a wrathful compassion things like that so yeah it depends i guess on uh the the the motivation uh could be relevant um the quality of of uh losing losing any kind of ground or say same reference point for what's happening and just you know um you know like your computer dies and you throw it through the window because you're so frustrated with it that just that's not going to fix the computer right and and it's not even going to make you feel better because it'll make you feel worse because now you go i gotta buy a brand new computer i can't get the one ahead oh destroying your own equipment is the most like i've seen my hands smashed down on a scanner once

i brought like i watched my hand like just pounding a printer i don't know if you've ever gotten into a printer rage printer rage is that a thing you ever had a printer rage i don't think so what is it oh my god of course you haven't no i mean i i'm totally capable of it i'm not sure what it is you mean if the printer is not working okay yeah so printers are like i think very susceptible to malefic spirits or something so if you if you print if you're gonna print something important give you like before you go to a meeting or an audition you need to give yourself like an hour because it's gonna run out of ink it's just gonna stop working for no if you like don't have anything important if you're just like printing out some bullshit it'll work but anytime i'm in a hurry to

print that's when it'll give me the low ink alert and that this is so off topic here wait but aggression and speed have a have a relationship that's the point if we're speedy there's already some aggression brewing there usually in the world like if you're in a hurry if you're in a hurry you're usually one step away from losing it wow you're right right it's almost like the smell uh of old chinese food in your refrigerator you just open the fridge you know you've got a problem so speed is uh that's why in meditation we literally slow down physically you know stillness and you know holding holding it steady for a minute because speed is is um you know gonna give birth to aggression and it comes from it comes from a usually um fear right what makes us speedy do you

think well uh you know a doctor friend of mine was telling me it's one of the people with PTSD or it's one of the things one of the symptoms is always being in a hurry so wow people who've had like trauma are the ones who like wow are always in a hurry they're accelerated in a way right yeah well yeah there's something accelerated us you know in that situation yeah there well there you know you're it's like you're just trying it's like you're running away from the moment of experiencing all that trauma so the more you're in action the more you're doing stuff the more you've got your schedule filled up and you're you and you're moving and moving and moving and moving the less you have that thing that happens when you meditate when you're not moving anymore when

you're staying still which is your you notice your tail again i mean that's my that doctor didn't say that to me that would just be my theory is like people who are in a hurry will think to themselves well i'm in a hurry because i've got to get here here and there and then that place in time i don't want to be late because i don't want to seem like a jerk but really i i don't know why i always say people when i'm in a hurry who the fuck am i talking about you mysterious people there's such assholes david yeah but when i so i like i've you know i've been have you ever been in a hurry to get a massage i i remember i was going to my tai chi class about 15 years ago and i was in new york city which is always puts you in that space new there's no place better than new york to

experience what you're talking about yeah as a norm a normal vibe like literally people are walking faster in new york than anywhere else i've ever been yes yes and i was in in a cab going to my tai chi class and there was a fire engine on the street uh in front of us and uh it stopped right in front of us so now i'm late and on top of that there's a fire engine with the siren going and i'm stopped behind it and i'm sitting there getting hotter and hotter and more and more frustrated and then the irony of it struck me it's like i'm gonna get there finally what am i gonna do move in slow motion exactly that's what i'm talking about man yeah that's that's funny right rushing to the spa you're rushing to so or you're just rushing to some non-event you're rushing to

get to a place and so that and i think about that a lot like that thing in me that thing that's in a hurry or that thing my i had a key jiggle and dad did you have a key jangle and dad that's a good blues title too key jangle and dad my key jingling daddy yeah or a mom there's key jangle and moms but like so my dad when he was in a hurry like you know you when you heard his keys you would start hearing this like you'd hear him grumble and you add that you better move it's like a rattlesnake rattle except his keys anyway that that i have that in me like that speedy hurry thing even when there's no real oh dunk and we all have it these days you know yeah it's part and it's cultural too let's face it it's a part of the whole milieu that we're in is key jingling key jangling

america is a is key jingling a key jangling country it is and you know and whatever that is it's that also connects with materialism interesting so speed aggression and materialism all have some singular thread going through that oh yeah right you can see it yeah is materialism so materialism not material but materialism is a quality of aggression well it has it in it because it's acquisitory and if you're a proper materialist you'll never be content the one thing that never experiences content a proper materialist i mean you're really going to go with the theory of it you couldn't possibly have enough right because you want bigger like every company wants to get huge you know you talk to well not just western anymore but business people have divorced

we have divorced as a society the acquisition of wealth from the experience of an enriching presence and enjoyment and contentment those are not even connected to each other wow yeah even the way that they entertain themselves and i'm this i am saying they because i think this is a pretty progressed mindset is acquisitive and you know it would have to be the next thing the bigger thing the more extraordinary thing you know the more pure thing the more uh on you know unusual thing and the idea of sitting on a porch and just um plunking on a banter you think that's a fool look at that fool you know yeah look at you on your fucking porch playing your shitty banter you dumb fuck i'm going i have to go buy another

racehorse i mean don't you i'm in a hurry to buy someone right now isn't a hurry to buy a racehorse today i've got a million dollars but that what but so let's talk about this isn't isn't that just a trick you're playing on yourself like the the the trick is go something it's it's like um opening a box that has nothing in it so somebody tells you if you go open that box you're going to be much happier and so you go and you open the box and there's nothing in it and you say to the person what the fuck there's nothing in i feel exactly the same way i felt prior to opening the box but maybe when you're opening the box there's this rush you know what i mean like what the fuck's in here what the fuck's in here i got the box finally and then they're like

oh no no no i didn't mean that box i'm in the box that's like on top of that cliff on the side of that mountain so now you're like oh yeah of course this is too easy to get then you're going up the mountain the whole time you're like oh fuck uh what if somebody gets to the box before me or holy shit and then you get to that box same thing you open it up you're more excited this time though because it was more difficult to achieve you know and then inside that box is just a note with a map to another fucking box and you keep doing this stupid game on yourself until you die and and and it keeps you occupied right that's the idea it just is a never-ending maze of empty boxes shaped like a threesome or like better ecstasy or uh right that's the idea and they're all

completely empty well and that's the idea materialism is that no that is life is temporary and impermanent so therefore those moments of satisfaction is the best we can do with it um right and and then spiritual materialism which we've talked about which was a phrase that trunk room coined is the idea that through spiritual practice quote unquote you could achieve a more stable version of that kind of level of having acquired you know now uh not just the perfect house but the perfect state of mind right in the perfect house right in the perfect body and that would fly in the face of what we were talking about initially the truth of suffering which is it's not going to work like you you're you're not going to get that that in the sense that the suffering thing is baked

in well wait a minute before baked in though then you're looking at uh if if you can acknowledge that that that the thing is unsatisfactory which is a pretty good word for duke um the the first noble truth is duke so unsatisfactoriness is almost the quality that you're not going to get real satisfaction then the question is is what is causing that so and there's a couple of different roads on that one the most conventional one is attachment you're too attached to the outcome so therefore you are going to have to be disappointed at some point right but the other one is fundamental bewilderment as to the nature of the experience that you're actually having profound ignorance deep deeply embedded uh lack of clarity about the experience you're having so that what

you call suffering is a conditioned thing but it's not necessarily from a perception of um actual experience it's just the unfolding of experience in a context in which you have made certain decisions to solidify your relationship to the experience so that comes out in a particular way I want to thank shudder who I worship and adore for sponsoring this episode of the DTFH this is where you go if you want to find actual horror movies I say actual because I'm sure you're aware of the fact that when you're curling up with your lover ready to get freaked out by some horror movie the selection of horror movies on a lot of these streaming services suck so bad

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dunkin that's s h u d d e r dot com 30 free days go there use promo code dunkin please make me look good with them my dream is to one day maybe get to be in a horror movie or make a horror movie for them I love you shudder thanks for sponsoring my podcast that is so okay let let me try to work through that and simplify it a little bit if I can because I'm trying to think of it what that I'm not going to simplify it at all but I was reading a book about the fifth dimension I believe or the sixth dimension the idea of like you know if you could move through these dimensions uh you to some people look like you disappeared in other words if I'm going to point a to point b and I could go into this alternate dimension it would look like I just

blinked out of existence and teleported to this other place right it's so people who saw that would be like wow holy shit that's magic but if you could do that it would be as normal as like taking an elevator or just a just as normal as walking so this kind of bewilderment it's like that but there's a piece of you in an alternate dimension that you're not willing to see right that and that's what's fucking you up in other words like you're that's this the subconscious this is the unacknowledged quality of your identity or the the unacknowledged part of your identity that is the thing that keeps touching the electric fence over and over and over again but but maybe hallucinating well it's different forms for the identical fence and then do you

know what does that make sense is that too confusing you know what what I think you could bring all those dimensions together into are they within the sphere of your awareness or not okay are you aware of that so if you're talking about unconscious behavior where you're touching the electric fence over and over again without realizing it that's because it's not within the sphere of your awareness that's why we practice awareness as a whole thing why would you spend time becoming more aware it doesn't make you richer it doesn't make you a better guitar player it's just makes you more aware but then there are fewer things that are just submarines it's like cleaning out the submarines in your bathtub you know no wait what do you mean cleaning out

the submarines in your bathtub getting attacked from below from things you're not conscious of you're not aware of okay you got a big bathtub David mine I don't know it was probably reaching but you know submarine attack is is a big deal because you didn't know it was coming that's why it's strategically a powerful thing we don't see them you know until until the missile is airborne you know you know what it is it's the scanning mechanisms that we have to like look for asteroids or meteors coming to impact the planet right it's like expanding your consciousness enough to begin to see those like things incoming incoming bad luck the stuff you're like oh I got really bad luck today the idea is like no if you were a little bit more aware you would have seen

that days ago that that was coming you're and ironically you did see it right and and then you forgot yeah okay so that's an that's an interesting twist and that's something for everybody contemplate on their own are we really unaware or have we covered over that awareness right yeah because you know that like whenever you get into a mess you go like actually I think I saw that coming all of it yeah it was how helpless powerless to shift any aspect of it because the autopilot took over vampires only go where they're invited you know what I mean that's that's the that's like that thing that's the old van that's like you you invite them in so it's you know so like they that's their tradition their custom is they can't well won't come in your house

and you're like unless you're like come on in thing with fangs and a weird cape come on in you want to come in of course I do or or or I've noticed sometimes in human relationships a personal just it'll just come out of them up front you know what I mean they'll just you'll be hanging out with a person and weirdly like just kind of out of the blue they might say it's something like I just love stealing sometimes and then you know a few months down the road you're missing something from your house you're like holy shit they literally just said it and I decided to ignore that that's a blunt example of decided to ignore it and how subtle that can get when you look back on your life and say you know I kind of did know that that person was whatever I did know that heroin was not good for

me I did know I should go to the doctor when my testicle got swollen up and I was looking at it in the mirror and thinking you know it kind of looks cool I mean the the the beauty of the humor of it is of course you know we're crying through our tears you know it's like country music a little bit you know yeah but but at the same time so just as as far as going forward you go well is there a way you mean laughing through your tears sorry to cut you off oh yeah I think I meant crying through your laughter or laughing through your tears okay you said crying through your tears which is like a really sad great country music song thank you for that edit that's good one your tears are crying yeah okay so coming back to the suffering the cause of suffering because this is where you

know we're trying to see do we have I don't know most of the people I talked to are trying to figure out life like what's happening of course day to day you know this happened and that happened and then I you know my like in my car got a flat tire on the way I was supposed to drive into the city last week and my car got a flat tire the night before it's gonna go and I wanted to be there but I didn't want to go on the train blah blah blah we're trying to figure out that level of stuff but we're also trying to figure out what are we doing here in the first place most people I know they're not just taking it like blah like oh I just go day to day I don't know too many people like that and you're trying to figure out what is the the source code or the

meaning of it or yeah how to work with the whole situation and one of the things that I don't know anybody these days who's my age who doesn't start thinking about the meaning of death more oh yeah you know forget about one testicle how about the whole damn body yeah you're gonna lose the whole damn body we're just also swelling up right now to be honest I need to lose some weight but yeah I know what you mean wait say that again I said my body's also swelling up right now it's fundamentally unreliable it is unreliable yeah but yeah yeah exactly I the reality of the that situation when you're getting older is like it's you can't it's unreliable now but it's easier to you can't it's more unmistakable you know as you usually for most people

is the age but yeah you know a good eight-year-old Buddhist would understand this principle at eight years old and and you know it's just in the data but but it could happen anytime that we're not and that's why you say before you practice there's called the four reminders you remind yourself that this is a precious opportunity precious human birth and that karma is kind of gonna cause things to happen in ways that are you know not exactly what you'd hope for and that this would be the time to to to um introduce any kind of possibility of of practicing something that will either lead to a better outcome overall or liberate you from the dilemma completely yes it's kind of like that's pulling your car off the highway for a second you know that idea it's

like you're you're just for a second you're getting out of the the entire insane square dance the society is doing this sped up weird empty box opening hell ritual and everyone fighting over these empty boxes it's so graphic the way you're describing it and some you know i guess buddhist teachers for centuries try to figure out good analogies and metaphors and allegories for expressing that the empty box syndrome and people should not confuse this with nihilism you know we talked about this a bunch of times but this is not nihilistic this is not saying oh there's no point in getting excited because your son comes home from school with an a on his report card and is so proud of him so you should tell him well you're gonna die anyhow so

what does that matter you know we talked about that when when for us was just a baby you know yeah it's not nihilistic that way it's just having a kind of uh you're considering the possibility that slowing down might be part of a solution at least for some of the time yes that accelerating is not always the answer to every problem especially when you're driving off a cliff george a cliff um uh or a wall yeah depending on how thick the wall is anyway the point is the slowing down because you know i'm always practicing music these days just as something to keep my mind sharp you know still be learning something get those neurons firing and that the most

the the thing that has made me learn music the fastest is slowing down when i'm trying to play something not not i don't know why like i and i realized when i was in the early phases of this how i was always trying to do it really fast and then you just cut it to half the time suddenly suddenly it's much easier obviously and and the slowing down of just about i can't think of anything that wouldn't benefit from slowing down sex i mean that's like then nobody wants someone who's like a fast fuck yeah let's not make any ironclad rules for for our friends out there but i'm not making ironclad you might be in a hurry whatever you need or or like you know it's exciting or whatever but um

yeah look hey i'm the lord of fast fucks hey if there is a fast fuck competition in the olympics i'd probably have a gold medal so i'm not i'm not knocking any again when i say they it's me but yeah okay so yeah fast and also like eating you know what i mean like no god like like eating having a nice dinner not being in a big rush or most things you know most things it's great well and ultimately mindfulness as an art thrives with the slowing down of the tempo of something yeah especially at the beginning especially at the beginning now and when you're talking about music Duncan that is universally recommended that you practice your scales slowly and you feel like the place is in the scale where it's not really connecting properly

and you can do it slowly and evenly then it's just a question of speeding it up for a faster tempo but you never feel like you're playing fast you know right so that's great players they look totally relaxed when they're playing fast right but that's because they practice slow right practice slow and mind meditation that's true we got so much energy and you know kind of inertia in our mind that leaving you know kind of open more open space we'll fill it with our inertia anyhow um but but adding the notion of fast results that's probably uh kind of not counter indicated yeah i want to get there faster i want to get in line faster you know yeah that's you already reproducing the causes of the confusion in the first place chanting your mantra really fast

well sometimes we do sometimes we do there's a lot of you know nuance to all this i like the way it sounds whenever i've chanted harry christia and i'm doing like machine gun harry christ now like auctioneer chanting i mean it's got a cool sound to it but you know you do so i have had moments when i've been into mantra meditation where i realized like i am doing this really fast because i want to get it over with oh oh that's different of course that's that's something but um you know for example i mean rinpoche used to say you know speed is a relative thing so like for example a race car driver is very is going very slowly from their perspective they're not freaking out at the temple of the event right it's everything's you know um but

if you're trying to introduce this idea of like you know parsing and moderation and seeing what's there usually slower tempo is a really good idea right yeah but you don't want to be a slow fire person you don't want to be a slow fireman you don't want your doctor to be too slow you don't want to be that slow when you're like doing the hind leg you know the tai chi fire brigade that's what you don't want so there obviously there's a and also i love that idea of the race car driver to the race car driver not fast enough probably you know and and but that's a right you know and also the i that idea the relative the idea of like yeah i mean humans compared to rocks man we're going fast as fuck like the slowest human is faster than the slower human is faster

than the slowest human is faster than the you know fastest rock the shaman called them the rock people really yeah yeah i've seen i've felt that before around clusters of rocks they might be moving at a temple that's you're right might be orders of magnitude slower okay so we've i'm sorry if i if y'all if we if i've spun my wheels a little too much in this concept of being in a hurry i just am chronically in a hurry and so i like breaking it down and i like this connection to that being a quality of aggression you know like it's because there's the the kind of hurry that i'm always in doesn't feel good it's usually it's a poisonous hurry it's and it's usually has within it definitely the capacity for me to get completely pissed off for no reason at all the people who aren't moving

at my speed to judge them the mindful style of meditation is really good for that because you sit down you you've created space you just take a breath you take another breath and then the key thing i think if we're talking about ending suffering removing the cause and condition of suffering and if it's aggression then the antidote is compassion right just flip when you're being aggressive to yourself to see if you can shift that towards kindness towards yourself if you're about to be aggressive towards somebody else see if you can shift that towards you know compassion towards that person that alone undoes a fair amount of the causality of the whole situation can you still can you simultaneously be compassionate and be completely pissed off

yeah it depends what you mean by pissed off you could be as we you know we're talking about sort of the enlightened aspect of anger would be you could be definitive uh in your know and your know could be really strong tough love for for example right your know could be really definitive and unshakable but there there doesn't have to be any aggression in it right and that's called wrathful or you know ruthless compassion tough love whatever you want to call it yeah okay okay we're gonna take a quick break i gotta use the restroom hold on one second hold on a second i guess this takes us right back to the fourth moment is that where compassion grows from you know we always talk about first thought best thought right yes we're sort of i personally

and rooted into um maybe even the earliest stage of my studies with drunk rumour chain early 70s which was so so um you know kind of uh significant in terms of time and place and what was happening then and how how things were getting connected up but i i consider some of the things he said as kind of those old 45 records that are kind of motown and their vintage and you know so there's about 10 things you know that are in heavy rotation one is first thought best thought yeah so yes my compassion i immediately i looked up at my property here at long island and they planted some ferns uh which um cover ground cover situation and every see they're seasonal so during the winter they just disappear and then every year they don't have to add more they just

water the seasons everything comes up and now the it's ground cover again and i think compassion is like that it's always there it it kind of can pop up and sprout out anywhere because it's part of the fund as much as suffering is part of the fundamental texture of existence compassion is and maybe more so i've never heard that before me neither me neither i think it's part of the fabric of reality compassion it's not a miracle it's not a special sauce it's part of the fabric look at the way children come in look at how we you know look at how we've fallen love look at how we love you know food and color and experience yeah i think and and and deeply we want to we want to love ourselves i think that you can't find a person who doesn't really truly in their

heart want to love themselves right and um you know so i think it's part of the fabric and then it sprouts and you want to water it that's what practice is you want to water it wow that is beautiful does it make sense oh yeah it's so sweet it's so in all the like you know going over and over and over again the qualities of compassion the form or the qualities of suffering the forms of suffering aggression and all the children of suffering are all the things that suffering is puked on or whatever it's so cool to imagine this other thing that is just there not not like an additive not like a sweetener or something that you have to like cook up and put in meaning you don't have to spend such a so much time looking for it you don't have to or well you know in terms

of causing conditions we would say and i'm by we i mean 2500 years of buddhist people uh or people you know examining that perspective that this suffering is causal it has caused some conditions and is impermanent by nature and also fundamentally insubstantial it does not have permanent existence anywhere anytime any place it's just part of the the uh brought about by causing conditions and when you remove those causes and conditions you remove the suffering and that in fact the the wakeful quality of mind and the uh compassionate aspect of mind have no causes and conditions that is so cool it's so optimistic isn't it wow that is it that is the best one i can't believe it that's so cool we have to find out that's you know that's me talking

from a you know you could say what i learned or what i studied but i would say there's a certain amount of personal experience that would back that up that you know when you grind down and you see what people are really made of it's it's it's pretty hard to destroy uh that that part of their nature um but the other parts can take over completely like just like the weeds could take over my fern garden yeah you wouldn't see it you wouldn't see a fern for miles you know what i mean that's we got to be realistic that way that's that happens that is so cool i don't know why it just clicked all this man i've i've had my i've gotten so bored in different ways hearing people talk about compassion but that's the first time it really clicked now i get when you were saying

empty when you were i don't know if it was off it was off mic we were talking about compassion and emptiness kind of being the same thing yeah well if it's solid and thick and programmable and so forth it it has the same texture as the rest of the condition situation and it may be a better outcome even if that's the way you're doing it oh i'm gonna program myself to be kinder and more considerate and better-mannered person that may not be the worst thing in the world right the fundamental nature of it is is more more deeply rooted than that as far as as far as i can tell fundamental goodness and compassion are these are these two things the same thing it's compassion another word for fundamental goodness well fundamental goodness uh you know

if you want to get into it it would probably include the idea of a crystalline wakefulness you know a kind of sharp clear mind and that is imbued with compassionate connective energy with everything it touches so uh you know it might be two aspects but maybe at some point it's really the same uh source code is this a faith-based thing if it like if you're covered in the weeds of suffering is this the kind of thing where like there's a little bit of faith here where you hear someone like you or trogium trumpa saying a thing like this and even though you're just completely coiled up by the anaconda of materialism and suffering you can get this little spark of like holy shit that's a possible that's a possibility that's underneath all this garbage that's underneath

all the muck you know again first thought best thought i thought it's ear whispered it's like the anacondas wrapped around you but still somebody your ear is open and somebody whispers something into your ear wow you know so i don't think it's blind faith for sure that's so cool it's not like you're gonna be okay take my word for it um hey i did david i didn't know you could hear whisper on a podcast yeah well they have horse whispers right and things like that is this sort of similar can you get through to the person's inner ear wow and you know teachers have to learn how to do that because uh shouting is not always going to be the way you reach people it's only yeah if only that were true if it was just a volume problem

wow well wow that's so cool i'm sorry people are listening like what the fuck are you so excited about that's obvious i'm a very slow learner man and that's a that's such a cool that is really cool well and you know if if if if if people want to find a road a route there's actually a physical area of energy around the physical heart center and i find sometimes this compassion practice it's better to drop your attention into that area of your body because your head will parse and debate yeah but your heart you know like if you love somebody you can feel them in your heart center yeah like your kid or something like that that's where you're gonna have that experience that we're talking about yeah that's what really ramdas was talking about i think right you know the heart

it's a physical center for what we're talking about and it's also guess what when we say jitta in um in sanskrit for mind it's in the heart center consciousness is seated in the heart center now the brain is considered important organ i mean you wouldn't even want to be walking around without one no right but um your heart is probably more fundamental in some way yeah that is so cool man it's so good to hear i mean it's just so great to hear because you it's so easy to kind of like get caught up in compassion as like a sort of abdominal workout or something you know like

you hear all the compassion exercises or building developing cultivating compassion which i get and in your example it does involve a kind of cultivation i could see that it's like but it but it's also sort of we've all seen like a field in the middle of winter and that is not quite as unnerving if as the dead heart field illusion that can happen to a person where you're sort of you're like i'm never gonna i'm never gonna feel anything in that place again or i don't want to ever feel anything in my heart again i'm you know it's a quality of many of of loss or something you know bitterness you just sort of grief grief you ice down because it's like you can't survive you feel like you can't possibly survive in the world with your heart crushed

like that you're vulnerable if you get into compassion you become very vulnerable you know to to really feeling pain yours and other people's pain um and suffering and there are there are stories about you know i remember a story about um there's only this karma but who is the head of the kagu lineage the 16 karma but who is an amazing being and a great great teacher that we were lucky enough to spend time with very unusual unusually magnanimous you know just from sort of conventional terms just really generous beaming kind of like kind-hearted and very you know very present energy and they said he went to hong kong they checked into a hotel and he's out on the terrace just looking out and he just starts to cry because because all those beings are suffering and they

don't have a shred of dharma they don't have any possibility of working with it in some kind of way so i think you would have a broken heart you know if you if you develop compassion you're gonna be more sensitive and you're gonna feel more vulnerable more of the time um and that's that's that's that's what we call the warrior's path Duncan that's what it is it has nothing to do with beating people up all right yeah that's cool what a David thank you so much that was a really great ear whisper i love it so cool such a quote such a trippy idea for some reason it doesn't show up is at least in my or i don't i guess i haven't listened well enough but the um idea that it's like unconditioned i've heard that so many times it just never got through

but suffering is a byproduct of wow man i'm just that's great i always know it's been a good podcast if i'm stammering at the end of it thank you and you know um folks uh David as you you've heard me say infinitely by now if you saw the midnight gospel you've seen David as Clancy's meditation teacher he also i happen it's injured one of the things Clancy and i share is the same meditation teacher um uh he's you got a class come you got another course coming up and so i want people to hear about it if you don't mind well and then the the nice thing is because if this is a podcast seems to be appearing soon on Wednesday September 22nd you Duncan are going to visit us at Dharma moon yes and and we're going to have a kind of joint presentation about the

upcoming courses and also just doing more of what we do all the time anyhow we just talked about stuff in the Dharma and also sometime maybe for for the people to to participate in that and the two programs that are coming up are a teacher training program which quite a few of your your um what should i call them what do you call your people my family your family okay quite a few of your family have taken this training and we just finished one last night and people were it's it's a very happy thing because in covid in this environment we have connected virtually and people are actually able to share their hearts in these programs in ways that i would not have imagined possible when we started doing it online well look you know i just think people listening as you got david

and i've been having these conversations for for god knows how long honestly uh probably millennia at this point but you just see how you need that like if you're interested in this sort of thing there's a real i don't know i don't want to do some telethon over here but it like anytime i have these wonderful conversations with you and it's cool that we can record some of them you just realize it's like this is not like it's as simple as simple can be but the thing is so weird you just need someone to like help ear whisper you a little bit you know it just isn't and training training so we have one course coming up which is the mindfulness meditation teacher training which starts october 15 and then we have one course that's that's a

kind of full course that's a four month training and that's a deeper deeper dive for folks but we have a foundations of mindfulness course which is starts uh thursday the september 23rd that's just four thursday nights of just getting into some of the fundamentals that might be right for a lot of people yeah so between those two we're going to talk about them a little bit you can go to darmamoon.com and then right at the top just go to the info session or click on to any of the programs you want to learn more about but right at the top is the is the trailer for the info session you click on it's free and dunk and i will both be there wednesday september 22nd darmamoon.com uh we have a great group of people gathering i'm completely inspired these days by

who's showing up for this and i think we've overcome the obstacle of not being able to gather physically where there there's a kind of definitely a community vibe that's evolving and it is in parallel to the dunkin family and there's a lot of cross talk there which is what special and delightful dunkin as i keep saying uh thank you they are wonderful um well david thank you so much i will be seeing you on wednesday next week can't wait can't wait for to start doing these in person again man i saw susan from salmarosa the other night it was so cool and just ah man i was we used to david and i used to do these you know in person it was the best oh i took it for granted oh i took it everything for granted back then but any i like you know what the remote stuff it's to

me it's like it's what we've got so what else are you going to do well and you know the beauty is people gather from all over the world the course the course last night there were people in in in japan australia south america exactly yeah you don't have to travel across the country to go to the thing so that's cool but we'll do both we'll do both right dunkin coming up yeah yeah absolutely oh god yeah i can't wait for that whenever it is thank you david this has been a wonderful conversation thank you huddy christian thank you thank you dunkin that was david nick turn everybody all the links you need to get to his teacher training will be at dugatrustle.com a tremendous thank you to all of our sponsors and thank you for listening i'll see you next week it's a two

episode week got some great guests coming up until then Hare Krishna office depot office max has great deals on everything you need to succeed like stylish furniture and chairs to keep you working comfortably the latest tech to keep you organized and productive calendars and planners to keep you on schedule and cleaning supplies to keep your space spotless it's the perfect time to stock up on the supplies you need to succeed from the office to your home and everywhere in between need it fast no problem place your order at office depot dot com and pick it up in just 20 minutes at your nearest office depot or office max store progressive protects more than just your home and car

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