Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 468: Jordan Firstman

Episode Date: October 15, 2021

Jordan Firstman, global pandemic superstar and new/old friend, joins the DTFH! Click here and follow Jordan on Instagram! Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Upstart - Visit upstart.com/duncan and see how Upstart can help you with your debt. Feals - Visit feals.com/duncan and get 50% off and FREE shipping on your first order. Purple - Visit Purple.com/Duncan10 and use promo code DUNCAN10 for $200 Off any mattress order of $1500 or more!

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I'm excited to be here with you. And I'm excited to imagine me and you together on a little sailboat, dancing together on a sailboat beneath a full moon. Friends for life, you and me were friends for life. Over and over, friends for lives, no way out. You've been my mommy. You've been my daddy.

Eventually, we'll get exploded, cosmic goo, swirling and swirling into something new. But for now, we're friends for life. Over and over, no way out. There's no way out, no way out. Forever and ever, we're friends for lives. Friends for lives, friends for lives. So let me fuck your wife.

Excuse me? OK, let me explain. OK. You see, we're friends for life. Yep. We've been here so long. A long time. You've been my wife.

Wow. And my mommy and my daddy. Interesting. Therefore, your wife is like my mommy. And my mommy's like your daddy. And you should let me fuck your wife. Friends for life, I don't wanna know how you like it. Friends for life, I wanna trust you.

But friends for life, you and me seems friends with this. Over and over, I've never met a smaller man than my man. God, you can fuck my wife. That is a little clip from Nexium, the musical. That's gonna be out on Broadway. I am producing and acting in it. And here's what's fucking amazing. We got 100% funding from my friends over at DARPA.

And they're just pouring money into this thing. And what's super cool about it is I will be the only human actor. Everyone else will be those badass, very sweet, very funny DARPA dogs. And that being said, here's a quick word from our friends at DARPA. Hello, it's me, Gary DARPA, owner and founder of DARPA.

When I was a child, I contracted polio. And I spent many years alone. When I was finally allowed back into society, I was bullied by my peers. But over time, I forgave them. And in fact, grew to dream of giving them a gift one day. That's why I started DARPA, to create millions and millions of funny robot dogs and robot humanoids to dance and sing

and perform for my fellow human beings who I love and respect deeply. I hope you'll come see Nexium, the musical. Thank you, Duncan. You got it, Gary. I love those dogs. All right, folks, we got a wonderful podcast for you today. Jordan Firstman is with us.

We're going to jump right into it, but first, this. He got a credit card when he was 17. He bought a high-end PC that is sold to Bosby. And now his credit score is 38. I want to thank Upstart for supporting this episode of the DTFH. It's supposed to be a credit card statement, not the coffin of a Nosferatu that's been sticking its poisonous fangs into your neck every single night.

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And we're back. You know, these days it's easy to feel diseased. It's easy to feel as though you've been digitally crucified on some kind of horrific neo-execution device sprouting up out of a horrible hill of skulls that is the modern day internet. And there you find yourself weeping and wailing out, gasping, begging for some sip of water,

and all you get is a sponge of shitty tweets shoved down your social media mouth. Well, friends, my dear loves, there's a way out of this situation and it's over at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. Do the modern day version of saying, Father, into your hands, I commend my spirit. And head over to patreon.com forward slash DTFH

and subscribe. Your sweet, sweet soul will be raised up by the angels and drop down to the promised land of our Discord server where you're gonna meet your true family and where you are at last going to come home. Are you a writer? Guess what? We're writing erotic cryptid stories right now

and you could join us. We're gonna make an anthology of erotic cryptid stories and you're gonna be hearing some of those soon on this very podcast. Do you want a weekly meditation group? We got one. We meet every Monday, 9 a.m. EST in meditate. We've been doing it for over a year.

You wanna hang out for a Friday family gathering to shoot the shit? We do it every Friday. Why did I do that thing with my voice? Don't know. The point is this, you no longer have to suffer my sweet, beautiful child. Let me wash your corpse and resurrect it

at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. Come home to your family. You know, I actually forgot that I met today's guest prior to interviewing him and as I was researching him, I was thinking to myself, he seems so familiar to me. And then I thought, well, of course, he seems familiar to you. He's super famous.

He rose to global fame over the course of the pandemic, was launched into the stratosphere and as awesome as that might sound, it can be quite terrifying and supremely confusing and sometimes even dangerous. This was a really fun conversation and it was really cool to realize where I met this beautiful being

and a little embarrassing that I forgot about that. But you know what? I'm 47 years old and I did acid for, I don't know, 15 years straight. So I get a hall pass, right? If I don't remember, sometimes my own birthday. Regardless, I'm excited for you to meet someone who I consider a new slash old friend

and I hope you will too after this conversation. You can follow Jordan Firstman on Instagram. It's Jay Firstman, check him out. And here we go. Everybody welcome Jordan Firstman to the DTFH. ["Welcome to UofLive"] Welcome, welcome on UofLive that you are with us.

Shake hands, going to be blue. Welcome to UofLive. It's be done contrivously. It's be done contrivously. Jordan, welcome to the DTFH. How ya doin'? I'm good, I feel like I've already ruffled you up. I love it.

Cause you're like, nice to meet you. I'm like, we've met. I obviously, is anything about my spirit feeling familiar to you at all? Extremely. Okay, okay. So yeah, there's like part of you that knows. But we've had a couple run-ins.

Okay. But you know less than I do. And my mom loves you. What? And you met me and my mother together. Okay, I'm gonna just throw it out there. This is amazing, this is an amazing mystery. Yeah.

The comedy store? Disgusting, no, I would never. But me, I would never myself and I would never subject my mother to that kind of experience. Okay, okay. Rom Doss retreats. Yeah. Okay, all right.

Are you kidding? Yeah. Whoa, no way. Okay, now it's all coming back to me. Wow, okay. How fascinating. Okay. When you were at their mom.

I also wanna know like, do I, like, do you know why I exist? Are you like, why is this like gay guy on my podcast? Well, I know that you're like a superstar. You've got, like, I know that you have like, also I think what's really interesting about you is that it seems like when you really started to hit was during COVID.

So you have the bizarre experience of weirdly benefiting from a global plague, which in some way I've experienced something like that because the Midnight Gospel came out during the pandemic. And I think that that made it resonate a little bit more with people. So I think in that way, we have something in common and that you have had a kind of like a meteoric rise

from diving into Instagram and like just putting out some stuff that I imagined at first, you're like, this is just something. And then suddenly like celebrities were into it. And then now you're on like, Jimmy Kimmel and stuff. I'm on like my, I have like the meteoric rise and it's like, then I entered the kind of like inch by inch downfall from that.

And like- Oh, do you feel that's happening? Oh yeah, for sure. It has not continued to rise. That's the funny thing about the internet though. It's like, you do hit these caps. And then it's like, this is who it's gonna be. And then once they get a little bit sick of you,

then it's only gonna go down. Yeah, I mean, I think those downs are just like, you can't get to, you know, a Ragu who, did you meet Ragu at the retreat, Ragu Marcus? Yeah, yeah. And I wanna go back. I wanna go back and tell- We'll go back.

This is cool though, man. Okay, so Ragu Marcus who runs the Love Survey Member Foundation, and he was one of my mentors, he calls the part of the mind that attunes itself to all that stuff, which is the rise and the fall and the numbers and God, the satanic aspect of the internet is it will let you quantify down to like, moment to moment, who you're losing, who you're gaining,

a kind of diabolic stock market ticker, where you imagine you're witnessing your value socially or something, it's really fucked up. But he says that's bean counting. So like, when we get caught up in that, like, oh shit, I'm on the way down, or I'm on the way up, or any time you find yourself going deep in the analytics, you're bean counting,

you know, it's not really, and for me, I know that the thing that bean counting didn't, is not why I ended up with a job where I could podcast. You know what I mean? It happened probably the same way you made your first impression video, I'm guessing, which is I was just like, oh, it'd be fun to do a podcast. No thought behind it at all.

No thought, just I'll just see what happens, you know? Yeah, but I think for you, you found something, and I don't know, maybe it's all for a show and you like secretly hate it, but I think you still like love it, right? I love it, but I can also hate and love at the same times. I mean, I don't love, you know, for me, the responsibility, now I have a family,

I got kids, so there's an added responsibility, which can sometimes, if I'm not really careful, my mind will feel like, I have to do this. You know, but then suddenly I'm hanging out with you and I love it. You know what I mean? Then suddenly it's like, oh, this is gonna be good and this is fucking cool.

And you know what I mean? I think you're allowed to hate shit that you also love. Yeah, something in me, I mean, I had about eight months where I was like, I was definitely bean counting on the way up, and I was like, fuck yes, like, oh my God, everyone loves me, this is great. And then once I realized how many people hated me,

then I started having to bean count those people too, and I was like, oh damn, I shouldn't have paid as much attention as the people who love me, because now I'm paying as much attention to the people who hate me, and then I started to resent the people who love me, because I was listening more to the people who hated me, and I was like, they're right,

and you people who love me are idiots. Oh my God. It became this, I mean, it also happened so fast and after a really traumatic time in my life that I couldn't really process it. And so I was just like, I guess this is happening. And then you're also thinking about the specifics of who you wanna please,

because I'm like, I have Reese Witherspoon and Jennifer Aniston watching, but then I have people who are like, I think are cool, not that they're not cool, like sure, they're great, but then I have people I want to respect me as artists, like peers, then you have all these people who want something else. So it's like these three categories of people or more

that I'm like trying to please at one moment. And then I kind of was just like, fuck it. And now I'm like, I just don't care, you know? Yeah, look, I think it's a daily struggle. It's like those people, you make these little holograms of Reese Witherspoon, whoever the particular comic or whatever the underground person is that you wanna like you.

She is my favorite comic. Reese Witherspoon? Yeah. Yeah, I've got them all living in my head, man. I got everybody. People who don't even follow me, I'm trying to impress if I let myself go crazy. I want fucking Michelle Obama to like me,

but also I want like some deep conspiracy theorist, bunker, dwelling freak to like me, but then also hyperdimensional beings to like me. And then I get paranoid and think none of them fucking like me or maybe no one's even listening at all. But this is just my mind, you know? Because again, to get to the, and I think people here, I don't care thing

and they think, how could you not care? But I think that you don't care thing that you're saying is like a kind of holy, I don't care. And also, you know, in magic when like they say you have to draw the protective circle, like I think that protective circle has some quality of I don't care because it's the care part that the demons

will use to try to trick you. And I think like at the beginning, and like it, I was kind of doing more than- My apologies. Is it Michelle? I'm so rude. I actually had it on airplane mode and somehow it's still ring.

Okay, go ahead. That's so weird. It wasn't an alarm, it was a call. They got through the fucking demons, got through. They got through, Michelle Obama got through. What was that? What were we talking about? I don't know.

I mean, I got completely distracted by that. We were talking about demons and penetral barriers. The concept of I don't care. Yeah, yeah, so I was like, when it was like first hitting, like it was deep pandemic and like it was, I was, you know, micro dosing acid every day. I felt like super connected,

super connected to these people, these strangers, these other beings. And I was like, maybe I can like, maybe I can make this non-human thing human. That was like, I was like, maybe I can do it. And then all at once it kind of like bursted. And I was like, oh, it's fucking Instagram. And it's like, it's Mark Zuckerberg.

And like this is a platform that is now run by someone who started the career comparing women to farm animals. And like that is what it will always be from now on here on in. So it's like, I can't go up against that. And like my little attempt to like make a machine or a whatever a platform more human ultimately failed. But it worked for a second.

But I would consider it at this point looking back a failure. No way. No, well, I can't, I mean, look, if you're, I think that is an interesting take. I mean, I think it was a successful experiment though, right? I mean, you've got a result.

You rippled the water in a kind of like intense way and got a result that a lot of people would be thrilled about. Like, I mean, like if suddenly I was like, I mean, I think there's something terrifying about your meteoric rise. Your head did poke up pretty far. You know what I mean? And that is where you do run into like increasingly bizarre

levels of danger, right? From the haters is there, is there called? Yeah. I also got, I mean, like I got the like story of like the rise was like happening and it kept happening. And then I was like little by little, I was like, oh no, the gay guys are coming. Like I knew pretty quickly.

I was like, these baggots are coming. They always, like I always had faith in gay people and like until I experienced it firsthand and I'm like, dude, these guys need help. And what do you mean? What do you mean? Tell me about this. Yeah, yeah, you kind of do have gay friends.

Yes, yeah, I do. Like one of my, yeah, and I don't mind you asking that. One of my best friends is Connor Habib, who used to do porn. And he's a fucking beautiful person. I want to know him a little bit too. I've met him a couple of times. Yeah, and he's like, he's a cool guy.

And like, and I love him a bunches, but do I have like a ton of gay friends? No, do I have, I mean, do I have a ton of straight friends? No! I have the non-dimensional, yeah. You're welcome to, I mean, when you become a parent, it's not, I mean, in move, we left LA and came to Asheville. So it's sort of like, I'm making friends.

I hope we become friends. I hope so too. Okay, yeah, so I'll go like a little bit into gay guys. They just, I mean, my, if I were to theorize it, I just think we're in a horrible place as gay men. We had a couple of good years. Actually, gay men, like really, like, it's been a rough, it's been a rough time because they only had like a,

like post-Stonewall pre-AIDS, there's like five years of like having fun and fucking and being free, and those years were like, probably really lit as fuck. And they, it meant something. Like the sex meant something because they could. And the drug use meant something because they were like, we're living in this counterculture.

It was like another religion. And they didn't have to like assimilate into culture. They could just like be these hedonistic like beasts, but like had the soul of being oppressed for a while. And then living in like a basically post-AIDS, at least in like the gay male urban culture, it's a post-AIDS world. And it's, and we can get married.

So it's like weirdly assimilating into straight culture. And so because of that, like, I think we have like lost touch with any form of struggle, but still aren't straight people. So it's like just the hedonism jumps out. And so like I look around and I see like insane sex practices, insane drug use, and like so far from the truth. And then it's also we,

because we're not like still fully accepted in society, this competition to like be the only one that can be successful or be like thriving is really major. So when they see- Can't wait, can I stop you there for a second as a straight guy? Let me tell you, cause today I was just thinking we're gonna have this conversation.

And I was thinking all these assumptions we make about gay people and what their lives are like. I was thinking like, you know, I have been kind of making this assumption that makes me feel better, which is like, you know, y'all probably still have some problems, but mostly you worked it out, right? You know, like I, like a, and I, and I was thinking today,

like that is such a fucking stupid assumption to make based on nothing more than like just like- We could have sex whenever we want to. Yeah. That's the thing that straight, every straight guy is like, dude, I'm so fucking jealous. You could just like take out your phone, get your dick sucked.

No, I don't mean that you can have sex anytime you want to. Though I do think that like that hedonistic period that you were talking about that I'm obviously I'm aware of. It does, that does sound like, holy shit, that would have been amazing. Like that level of freedom, that level of also the psychedelics being used would have been, and I think during that time MDMA was still kind of legal.

You know what I mean? It was just sort of bubbling around. I'm not positive about that one. But no, what I mean more than that is not just like, oh yeah, it's great to be gay, fuck whatever you want. I mean like a kind of assumption, at least I've had in my own mind, which is like kind of what you're saying,

like marriage is happening now and there isn't like, that things have gotten, you know, better regarding the way society is like looking at like gay people. But again, these are purely heterosexual, married persons, lazy assumptions. So to hear you, you know, talk about that, it's sounding as though like within the community itself, there's some kind of like friction.

Is that new friction or has that always been there? I'm feeling it in a way that I've, I always kind of knew, because like I just like in my small experience, like trying to make gay work and like trying to like get in Hollywood and like tell like gay stories. Like I kept like running into these walls and they were like, no one's gonna watch it.

And I was like, you're wrong, you're wrong. People like gay guys need this and they will watch it. And then the second I started to like blow up, I was like, oh my God, they were right. Like they wouldn't, they won't watch it because they don't want to see themselves reflected. It's like, it's this weird thing where I was like, oh my God, I was like fighting for a community

that most of them do not want someone to fight for them. And then there's like the other, there's the other side of it that's like, then on a very like commercial capitalistic level, like you can't talk about the issues that gay men face. Cause it's still so fresh that you want the straight audience to be like, we're thriving or we're oppressed. It's like either like one of the two things.

And then there's like all of this like energy inside of it that is honestly extremely fascinating, but it's just like, it feels at times like there's no market for it. Cause the way in which basically like, I sense the gay people bubbling up and I was like, I'm losing gay people. Like the fact that like Ariana Grande is like fucking with me,

they're like, we're jealous, like we're not, we can't do it. Or they're like, they, they, in their minds, they're like, cause then I started like becoming kind of like fashion-y and I was like doing Versace campaigns. It just got kind of spiraled. And then gay men also have a thing with like, I don't have like the perfect like gay male body. So they're like, why does that bitch get to be a Versace model?

I'm at the gym seven days a week. He's kind of fat a little bit. Why is he getting to be a model and I'm not? So then there was like, and he's being funny. People are thinking he's funny. It was too much for them. And so it like became, and I watched this happen. This was like the, one of the most interesting

internet moments I've ever experienced, but like basically they, there were a couple of people like campaigning to get me canceled. And they were like, team assemble, we're going through. And I watched it. I was, they were like, we're finding everything. And so I was like- What did they find?

I Google, I didn't find anything. What's the point? I'm glad, I'm glad to know. I'm glad to know. What did they find? Usually when you're, when I'm like researching a guest, the cancel thing is the first thing that pops up. Nothing, just like everything very positive.

Oh my God, what did you do? What, what did they find? It was, I mean, it was really crazy the way it happened. Cause like first it was like this kind of popular meme account that was, they were like changing the captions on my videos. And so like, there was like one and they wrote like, this is my impression of a black woman

as if I wrote that. And so then that started like getting passed around. Oh, shit. Yeah. So that's like true, like cyber bullying. So, you know, I was like, I was pretty well liked at Instagram HQ at the time. And I was like, guys, like delete this.

I was angry. And I was like, don't take this post down, delete these fuckers forever. And that was big mistake, big mistake. Cause then they knew, they knew. And it was like a pretty big account. And I know it's hard to build followings. And I do feel like a little bad,

even though they're fucking assholes. Oh my God. Like I got their account deleted, then they went to Twitter and they're like, it was like 10,000 tweets in five minutes. I fuck Jordan first and we're going to take them out. We're going to take them down. That's when they like went to the Twitter

and I'm like, Duncan, I'm, I'm deleting tweets as they're going through it. I'm deleting them by the thousands. And they're like, guys, he's deleting tweets. We need to go faster. Holy fuck. It was like a video game and, and they found three. They found three.

What'd you say? Honestly, they were so, it, it was, the reason like you didn't find it is because like, it was so attempted. It was attempted cancellation cause they weren't juicy enough. I mean, the one, the one that people got the most mad at was just speaking of homeless people

as anyone tried killing one. Which like- Oh fuck. Yeah. Not funny, but it's like, obviously I don't mean that. And obviously, like, I was obviously, I was also 19 years old or 20 years old, 10 years ago. Just like tweeting.

I was like, thought I was Sarah Silverman. Like I didn't know what I was doing. Yeah man. No, I know. I mean, it's the horror of all comedians is it's like, I know exactly why you did that. I certainly have like, when I look back at all the grotten things that I've said,

not out of some like hateful part of me, but just out of pure lazy edge lording. And it's like, you're trying to get a reaction. It's like, but in your, and you are like a, you know, younger version than yourself now. You aren't thinking about anything other. No. And also generally like,

comedians when they're coming up, they like, and again, I'm not, I'm speaking for myself. There's a kind of like serious insecurity. We devalue ourselves in the most extreme way. At least most comedians that I've like run into in the, like they're, you run into every once in awhile comic who's like, just imagines they're the funniest fucking thing that ever walked the face of the earth.

But under most mostly there's a sense of like, you know what, it doesn't matter because nothing's ever going to happen for me. So I'm going to just be fucking lazy and say some stupid rotten thing. And then so you're in 20 or 19 or whatever, you're edgelorting. It's edgelorting.

You don't mean it. I mean, that's the thing is like, there are people out there. That means that. Wait, one second, pause one second. Sorry, I'm, my computer is throwing up. ["Can't Sleep, I Don't Know Why"] Can't sleep, I don't know why.

Oh, I remember, there's a pandemic. My wife and I had sex with Sean Hannity. Need to find a better way to win the vodka. Fields, this is brought to you by Fields, CBD. Fields is the best CBD out there, period. Some CBD, it tastes like an elf had dysentery on your tongue, but not Fields CBD. It's a delicious, glorious amber colored nectar

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your first three months with free shipping. It's Fields.com slash Duncan. Thanks, Fields. ["Egg Lording"] Okay, so we were talking about egg lording. This is an early phase of being a comedian. But also I just, I also wanna say I'm not, I don't consider myself a comedian either.

So- Okay, well, but you do, you're making comedy, you're making some form of comedy. Yeah, it was kind of fluke vibes though. Like it wasn't what I, like I spent years doing other things and then it was like a quarantine, like I'm gonna make some videos just because. It was very like, it was an accident.

Semantics aside, when you start experimenting and making people laugh, you know, like it's just like with my toddler, you know, when he's exploring the world, he'll for example, slap, I'll bring him some milk and he will slap me in the face. This has happened, he bring a nice fresh glass of milk just a slap followed by like an observation,

like a scientist, like what happens if I slap dad in the face after he brings me some milk? And there's only love between us and cause I recognize, oh, I know what you're doing. You're not like, fuck you motherfucker, I don't want your milk. You just are trying to see what happens. Something, there is something that is interesting

there too though. Cause like, aren't we in some ways always trying to like slap the milk out of someone trying to give us milk? You mean like basic aggression? No, just like basic not accepting love. Oh, yes, yes, yes, yes, yes. Yes, well, I think in a lot of adults, this is one of the great like sad,

like self-imposed love tourniquets that we wrap around ourselves and out of some horror, God forbid we get embraced by the universe. It sounds like you experienced this, you know, what's cool about technology to me, one of the cool things about it is it like exposes these archetypical realities via ones and zeros. And so all of us who have experienced the comment reading

problem have quickly realized how habituated we are to turning away from love and turning to hate and how interacting with the hate only amplifies the hate just like what you were saying up front. Some fundamental rule in the universe, which is here you could have infinite comments of like, God, you're just, look, I'll tell you, man, I just uploaded, I just did this comedy central

animated thing where you talk about trips that you had and like I had totally not been, I had like been successfully in denial about how fat I had gotten over the pandemic, like really successfully like just ignoring that. I got fat. I'm like, I'm like, you know, like, I'm like somehow. And so then I see my video and I'm like, oh God, Jesus.

And people are there saying you're fat too? Well, it's a lot of sweet comments. They love the stories, they love it, but yeah, of course. They're people who are like, not just you're fat, like somebody was like, I'm worried about Duncan. That looks like dangerous way. It's like not just you fat fuck, you've been eating too much cereal at night.

I'm worried, I'm worried about him. So it's like my mind is not paying attention to this love comments at all at that point, just doing this satanic fishing trip to find all the insults. And it's also like I, it's kind of fun though in a way. Like I get why they're doing it. It's like, it is, I've, I like, even with my audience,

like I started noticing them in the last couple months, they're like being mean to me. And I'm like, why are my like fans being mean to me? And I'm like, oh, it's cause I'm giving them nothing, but hey, like I'm not giving them good energy like I used to. And so they're responding back to it. And I'm like, part of me is like that thrill I used to have

like seeing the number go up. Now I have a similar thrill of seeing it go down. I'm like, how many, I'm like, how many can I lose? Like what can I do to, I don't know. It's just, I mean, because if I'm, I think I need to, as a person, I think my, my like karmic journey in life is to like learn how to not live in extremes. And I'm like, if I'm not going to have extreme love,

like I will have extreme something. And so like then I'll, I'll, I'll like push, I'll push them away to like feel something of the same on the opposite side, if that makes sense. Yeah, it does. It's, I mean, it sounds like, it just sounds self-destructive. It sounds like you're trying to hurt yourself.

Or it's, I mean, it sounds like a, to me, it sounds like an experiment that success in the experiment only means some kind of like failure. Why, why, why, why, why do that? I think it's just a more experience, I guess. It's like, I think I am someone who like seeks out major feelings and like, and like living in a like median range, super difficult for me,

has always been super difficult for me. Actually, I would, and like, I actually do want to go back into the ways that like you, you are super connected to my life and like my, my growth as a human. And you actually keep coming back in weird ways. But I, even the last time I did, I Alaska, it straight up was like, stop coming back. You're done.

You don't get like, you're not getting this high anymore. Like we taught you everything we're gonna teach you, don't ever come back. And so like that was like, and now I'm like stuck here back here and I'm like, fuck, I know I can't go back to that place. I kind of like do know the answer now, at least for my life.

Like the time before that I did it, it straight up like, told me the thing and now I just have to like live with that. And so I think like it is now about hopefully trying to find some sort of peace. But- I know I've been evicted too out of the psychedelic universe. I've had those moments where the, whatever the thing was was like, come on, what are you doing?

You do you want it like, why are you, once it was, why do you always go through the back door? You know, you don't have to like, you know there's other ways to, and yeah, and I remember like understanding like, oh yeah, like it's more like, I was trying to take shortcuts or something like that. And you know, instead of like dealing with the ground,

you know, the thing that you're in the spiritual world all the time is like, you can't build a house from the top floor down. You've gotta start, you know, with the foundations and then work your way up, even though it would be nice the other way. And I think sometimes the psychedelics, at least that's what I was doing,

even with meditation, with music. You know, I bought all these fucking modular synthesizers before I learned scales. You know, I wanted to like do the most extreme thing. Yeah, but okay, I want to throw this out there. Yeah. And definitely shoot it down. Do you think maybe you just got a little freaked out

by getting too famous too fast? There's definitely part of that, but like honestly like it didn't feel that weird. I was like, yeah, this makes sense. Like not to be like a cocky little dick, but like I was like, I get it. Like it just felt like right, but then it also was like taking me really far out of,

cause I had spent like, I'm going to talk about it now. So like I started listening to your podcast when I was around that age of the tweets, probably right after those tweets. And I had just had a really traumatic year that I don't want to super get into on here, but like I had gone through like a major, major trauma. And like your podcast like open,

opened me up so much to so many new things. And like, yeah, I started, got obsessed with ayahuasca from like listening to your podcast, had like a year of like being obsessed with that before I did it. Then like that whole journey took me on this other thing. Left that for a while, came back to it,

got into Ram Dass. Like you, you're the reason I have like a spiritual world inside of me for real. Thank you. Thanks for telling me that. Yeah. And then I, we, we met at the Ram Dass retreat and my mom who's like either, like she can be either super perceptive or like the exact opposite,

like super delusional and just like not living in reality. But she was like, she was like, he's your teacher and you need to know him. And I was like, and I was kind of like, it's even like in my, in my like wanting to talk to you, there is part of me that's like, just like you can just like leave, leave this man as someone who helped you.

You know what I mean? Like you don't actually need to know him. Like he can just be a part of your life that like is, that privately helped you. But then I was like, I also want to talk to him. But just to say, like I, you, you are, I mean, you, you understand your, your shamanic in your own ways. And I think actually like we, we then ran into each other

again, I think we're both on MDMA. And I, I was, are you, am I allowed to say that? Yeah. It was at like some warehouse space and you were, you were dating someone that I knew and we had like a moment, we had a moment. But I was like, Oh, I totally remember it.

Yes. Okay. Now I've got it. You got it. Okay. Cool. Yes. I remember now. Yes. And I was on, actually that was MDA and I think not MDMA. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Cool. Now it's all, now I've got it.

Okay. Cool. I kind of liked it better when you didn't, but now we can't go back. The memory has been, been locked and loaded. I remember. But I was, I was telling you, I was like telling you about your shamanism. And like you were, it's like,

it's kind of weird how you react like when, when confronted with that, right? Like it's like you, I don't know. We had a kind of like conversation. I can like really like push and prod people too. So I might've been being annoying. But I think I was just telling you about your shamanism and you were either being very like humble

or like you were scared of your shamanism and like wanted to like retreat. Not scared of it. No, you know what it is? It's like having been with like, had spent time with these teachers from the Ramdas Satsang. Yeah. Ragu or my teacher, Jack Cornfield or Trudy Goodman

and seeing this commonality in discipline, in lineage, in practice. It's more along the lines of like a sense of like, look, you know, I'm someone who's trying to figure this stuff out and I love talking about it. But, you know, if to say much more than that and it would, I would feel like I was like, not that there are any kind of like ranking systems here

or anything like that, but I would feel like I was being not deceptive, but it's just sure, but these people, they're like, if there is something in me that you're responding to, it's because of my connection to them and my practice that's related to what they've recommended.

You know what I mean? So that's, it's not really humility in the sense that I know sometimes I can describe some ideas in a way that people hear them and I think that's fucking cool and I'm so happy I could do that. But also it's like, Jesus, like my teacher, David Nickturn,

having worked with him in using the lineage of Chokim Cheparimpoche and experienced what that's like and seeing how organized the process is. You know what I mean? It's not like you just decide you're gonna be a meditation teacher. It's like he spent years working with someone from that picked up a methodology that's legitimate,

you know, and it's been passed down for thousands of years and evolved and refined so that when you're, when he's working with me, you could tell that there are gradients and that the gradients are based on like his ability to assess where I'm at with it. You know, it's like, the way he puts it is we do this in real time

because I'm my, initially working with him, my personality is such that I wanted the shit right away. My ego wanted the, I want the initiation. I want the magic. I want the download. I want the fuck. I want to actually project. I want to read minds.

I want all the cities. Is that all the ego bullshit and his for literally for years, for years was you just try sitting and meditating. Just sit. Yeah. Well, you should sit. Why don't you meditate? Well, I had this incredible experience

when I was meditating. Oh, forget about that. Now just sit and you realize over the course of working with someone like that, that there's a real reasoning behind why you was doing that. You know, so anyway, sorry to go on and on. That's why when people approach me and suggest something that I wish was there,

and which could be one day, but what's now I know is not, then I always shoot it down. I try to shoot it down. I mean, but there's also like you're obviously someone who believes in some sort of soul thing. Like maybe like, I'm not sure exactly which version of it, but like there are just, there's learning

and there's like being receptive to learning and there's like being skilled and knowledgeable and like keep building on that. But then there's like also just some chosen souls out there, buddy, right? Like, and like there has to be some form of, I mean, it's like, it's pretty biblical, right? Like these people have to like accept that they're chosen

to be able to like spread it, right? Well, okay. So the story, I always go back to the Ram Dass story, he has a brother who ends up in a mental asylum, have you heard this story? I think so. His brother thought he was Jesus and like I think they found him in an apartment

with like a group of senior citizens that were convinced he was Jesus. He gets committed, sees Ram Dass says to him, why is it that I say I'm Jesus and I end up in a lunatic asylum and you're out there, you look like Jesus and you're saying you're, people are treating you like Jesus, you're fine. Ram Dass famously says,

it's because you think you're the only Jesus and I think everybody's Jesus. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so I think that like, you know, this is like right now I'm reading this great book, highly recommended to you, cynicism and magic. It's a, it's a trend,

it's like a Devandra Banhart reading, Chogym Trumpa's like a book that was taken from his first lecture. And in this book, he talks about spiritual materialism, which is a recurring theme for him, something called spiritual materialism. Have you heard of this? No.

This concept, okay. So the concept is really fucks you up because like as a spiritual people, we like to, we almost like self quantify. And so we imagine that we have all these stripes or pens or badges or there's some hierarchy here, you know, a real like hierarchy. And I don't mean in the sense like some people

are like licensed teachers who, there's like a kind of licensure that's there for the same reason in therapy, it's there because you don't need, every time someone is, you can really fuck people up. Oh yeah. And it's fucked. And so, but I mean like in the sense like,

oh, I've chanted this many times. Oh, I've meditated for a year straight or oh, I went to the Himalayas and touched the feet of this person or that person. And what ends up, what Chogym Trumpa Rinpoche was identifying as like this thing that happens where you start creating an imaginary storehouse of powerful experiences.

And from that, you can come up with this, the soul thing that you're talking about. And Ram Dass and Chogym Trumpa Rinpoche and all of them, they would always just fuck that up. When I would have tried it, it was always like, oh no, that's your ego. That's what Ram Dass would say, that's your ego. Because, you know, a friend of mine was telling me

he was talking to Ram Dass. A lot of the things I've learned from Ram Dass come from other people telling me that, talking to him privately, someone was telling me they went to Ram Dass and they were saying, I put all my love out into the audience and the audience gives me all the love back. You know, Ram Dass, you know,

and only the way someone like him can, with a big smile was like, that's your ego. You can't give love away. You can't take love. There's no transaction here. That's the frustrating thing about it. So, as far as the chosen ones and all that stuff, oh, wouldn't it be nice if we were, God, that'd be cool.

I'd love it. I'd start a whole fucking thing. I'd have a tower, like Carl Jung had, I'd have some kind of fucking tower. I'd etch important shit under rocks. No, girl. But, yeah. You have the podcast tower.

I know, but again, I try to make a fairly concerted effort to deflate that idea only because it's not fair and, God, Jesus, man, I'm telling you, if it were real, I would fucking inflate. I would be like, yes, I can read your mind. I can heal. I'm a healer. I talk to the spirits, but it's like, oh no, my friend.

I get in fights with my fucking wife. Sometimes I drink too much. I eat bowls of cereal at night. I'll jerk off to foot fetish porn. Wipe my jizz on my fucking sweatpants leg. No, I'm afraid not, I'm afraid not, because I think that's the only ethical way to get into the discussion about this stuff,

because otherwise, you know what I mean? You end up, you end up fucking everyone out. Yeah, yeah. Fake expanding. It's true, it's true. Like, I can say it to you, but it's good. It's good that you've come all over your pants and eat cereal, too.

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I think when we're looking at spiritual communities, when we're looking at all the stories surrounding so many spiritual teachers, anytime there's central and look, it happened to you. You fucking centralized, you got hyper centralized and in that centralization, suddenly you're getting like hate and people are like, what the fuck? You're not who you say you are, you're something other than what you are. And in that, all these accidental, you ran into all these accidental problems, and so I don't, anyway, but that being said, the term spiritual friend, I like that a lot, which are satsang, spiritual community, which is it's like, we're here to talk with each other and from where we're at.

And that's where, to me, the magic really happens. Yeah, it's funny, I'm like, I'm, I think something about the, I'm trying to find my way back in, but I'm also kind of, I'm in a godless universe right now. And I know that about, I'm like very aware of it, and it feels really weird as someone who has like, the last 10 years has been very gaudy, and like, I'm into this shit, and I feel it, and I believe it, and I experienced so much of it, and like, I'm, I'm like looking around me, I'm like, not there, not there, and I'm like, no God, no God, no God. And I'm like, this is so strange to like be feeling so disconnected from something that I

once felt so connected to, but I'm kind of also trusting that it's like, you know, it's like we go through these, have you gone through a godless phase since you started the thing? Of course, right? Fuck yeah. Yeah. You know that the, I mean, isn't this the, okay, Jesus on the cross. What does he say? Do you remember the things Jesus said on the cross? I'm gay.

He said like, if I want, if only, if only, that would be iconic. It would have changed a lot. It would have changed the course of human history for the better, for sure. And you know what? Probably if he had said that, they would have been like, don't write that down. Sadly. But the, he says, for my Christian friends out there, forgive me if I leave one or two out. He says, I'm thirsty. That's one. And that's when they shove this vinegar soaked cloth in his mouth. They call it vinegar, but really, this is an interesting sort of Da Vinci code

moment. People like say, actually, they gave him opium, like that bitterness. Oh, they gave him something to make it a little easier on. That's nice. Yeah, that's nice. So that now the second one thing that he said, I can't, is what he says, he says, this is the most poignant one. I think he might call for his mom. And, but then he also says, this is the part where you're at. He goes, father, why have you forsaken me?

So this is to me, this is why I love Jesus is because all these other like avatars, yeah, they, they're in it to win it, man. Where is the moment of the dark night of the soul moment? Jesus on like in the great, you know, final act or the Christians will get mad if you say final act, but in the great moment, literally is experiencing what you're experiencing, complete disconnection from source, complete abandonment, yeah, abandonment. And you're in, and here's what's really interesting. I had a rabbi on the podcast and he was explaining the Garden of Eden story to me and

in the Garden of Eden, are you familiar with this, the Garden of Eden story, like the basics of it? The basics, yeah, definitely the fruit. Yeah, of course, of course. Really trippy, man. That like the whole thing is just really fun to read when you're high, but like Eve gets at him to eat the fruit you're not supposed to eat. And of course, literally, it's the stupidest shit you ever read in your life, like,

but it's not meant to be taken literally, but so, so God calls out to Adam after this like transgression and you hear all these things, depending on the version of the Bible you're reading, and it can sound really like patriarchal and like, where are you Adam? You're in trouble, but really the original translation, the way he calls out is the way a parent calls out when they can't find their kid, which when you have kids, it's the most fucked up thing where you're so terrified. Desperation.

Where are you? Where are you? So it's like the, this is almost like a mirror of that on the cross where the Christ is calling out in the same way. And the word being used is Abba, which means daddy. So it's not father, why have you forsaken me? It's more like, where is my daddy? Where daddy, daddy, daddy?

Heartbreaking. So crushingly heartbreaking from that perspective. So the godless thing you're talking about, you know, yes, I think that is a natural and important part of whatever you want to call this thing that I think we're engaged in, which is at some point, yeah, there's nothing there. And you got, I mean, like that's kind of like what the whole, it's funny, like that last ayahuasca trip. Also, it was like speaking of kind of like, it was, it was run by a charlatan, I'll say.

And I just like add in an act of desperation. It was like right after all the shit felt like it was going south. And I was like, I can't, like I need, I need answers. Like why am I being tested like this? Like again, like I thought I went through the bad part, but it's like, no, the bad part like keeps coming back. And like it, there's always going to be, it's always going to come here again. And then it's going to go up and down and up and down.

But I was like in an act of desperation, I get this shaman reference from someone and like I go and it just like wasn't the vibe. But like it was all still like part of the lesson of like, you shouldn't, you should have done your research. You should be a man. Like you need to grow up and like stop asking these higher things for answers. Because we've already told you we're not giving them to you. And so be a man and like part of like being a man and like by man, I obviously don't mean

man, but I mean, like be a, just like grow up, stop being a baby and you don't need God all the time. Sometimes like just do your work and then feed yourself and then go to bed and then wake up again and like do that for a little bit instead of like constantly being a little kid, pleading because the time the like last like experience I had with God, I was truly begging. I was like, it was, it was, you know, the last time I did Iwaska, I'm in Peru. It's my like last time Peru, the way I got there was super crazy and like running away

from a relationship. I was like, I need answers. I need answers. Didn't give you the answers. I want it. And the last night, the first time I ever did Iwaska, like female God, as I call it female God, male God, that's kind of just like how I categorize it. And she came to me the first time and like that bitch is amazing, obsessed.

Like I, and so I've been like searching for that like endless love since and she had never come back on any of my trips. And so like I'm sitting there the last night and I'm like, I'm just like sobbing and pulling my hair out and like hitting myself. I'm like, you're fucking here. Like I know you're fucking here. Just like reveal yourself and give me the fucking answers bitch. Like just screaming like, like bloody, bloody and like just so much pain.

Like the pain of it felt like the true like the word struggle. It felt like that times a million. And I've never felt more just struggle in my life. And then it is a podcast. So it's like, you're not going to be able to see it, but maybe we'll try to describe it after, but after like two hours of that, I like sat back and just like, took a breath and then she like came to me and she just made this face. Wow.

And she just like stuck her tongue out at me and she was like, you don't get to know. So I'm never, ever going to tell you any of this. And like that's it. I started laughing so hard and she was like, you don't get the answers, but like what you do get to do is laugh at me with your friends. So just like do that. But like just know right now I'm telling you every question you just asked me, you will never know.

I'm not telling you straight up. No cap. And so then like I, that's like what I'm living with right now. So it's like, of course, I'm like kind of, and then I start that kind of sends me into the next like year of my life where I'm like making like people laugh. Cause I was always like, so I did not, I resented my like ability to make people laugh. I've always run away from it and been like, I want to be taken seriously. And this is where it all kind of like connects back to you too.

Cause it was like, I was just starting to have this experience where I'm like making a lot of people laugh and they're like relying on me for laughter and it feels really good. And I watched your show, which like obviously really moved me a lot. And I started thinking and that made me think about Ram Dass. And like, you know, at the retreat, you, you know, you have your like whatever, like five seconds with him and it's like this beautiful thing. And like I go back to my like memory of that. And I'm like, what did I choose to do with my five seconds?

I chose to go in and like crack a joke in his ear and make him laugh. And like I have this beautiful picture of like me like making him laugh. I think I just flirted with him. I was like, you know, like something about how like he like looked like didn't look a day over 40. I just said something like cheesy and flirty, but I was like, oh, this is so interesting that like all of these things are coming back to laughter. And like that for, for me, I mean, like I believe everyone has their own God or so to speak or the God inside of themselves.

And like mine, I do think I've learned is, is a God of laughter. And but I think that I think that is probably why I'm living a Godless experience right now is because like I that laughter was at a point taken away from me by like my experience in the last year, or maybe I laughed too much. Maybe I let or maybe I gave my laughter to everyone else instead of like laughing myself. So I don't know that I don't know where any of that story goes. Love it. Listen, it's this, you know, the, the, maybe it's just because I'm reading it right now.

But you know, this is again, something that I keep going back to is this concept of in spirituality disowning these experiences, which so like, I remember once actually when we were making the Midnight Gospel, I remember walking by a trash can and looking at it and thinking, what if I just like forget all this bullshit? Like all the Ramda stuff, all the neem curly Baba stuff, all the Buddha bullshit. What if I just could just throw it all away and just start over again with none of it at all? And my heart just would like it was the best moment ever. And once up here in North Carolina, I was up in the forest meditating.

And I had this moment of thinking, why do you even call this Buddhism? That's so stupid. Like there's Buddhism doesn't own this experience. Like how crazy that you're, you're giving this away to like some label or some thing. And that was a really like powerful moment for me. And then I would articulate some of these things to David, my teacher and his advice sometimes would seem, I wouldn't talk to him for days or be so annoyed with him because he would tell me just, you know, in different ways, maybe disown that,

maybe just, you know, let that one go. And I would be like pissed because I couldn't see what he was giving me, which was freedom, the freedom of not being encumbered by the past. Because whatever the fuck it was, the laughing, Kali-esque goddess figure that you encountered with her tongue stuck out, which is very metaphysical, has a lot of like real significance. If you look at any of the paintings of Kali, most of them she has her tongue out, you know, and like it's like a very powerful thing, what that represents. So one of my, the Buddhist teacher, Bob Thurman, you know, was telling me about this

Buddhist scripture where the Buddha sticks his tongue out while he's delivering the sermon. And everyone watching on the tongue could see like the multiverse, essentially, him in all these different forms, alien forms, god forms, goddess forms, delivering the very same sermon simultaneously throughout the universe. But he's sticking his tongue out to do that. So the significance of the tongue sticking out from a metaphysical perspective is very powerful. And it's one of the ways that the divine shows up for us somehow. It's like a hugely powerful symbol.

Yeah. I mean, kids love it too. Yeah. And it's ridiculous and silly and absurd. And that, so it's like, to me, one way to look at it is denial. The other way to look at it is trying to blow up your whole fucking game. You know, like it's not like I'm not going to give you the answer to these questions. That's what they're saying, but it's more like I'm going to pop the bubble there because your questions and all of it, what's behind all that? What's the real, what's the answer behind all of the possible answers?

I don't know what that is, but disown, disown. It's like another thing that came into my mind when you're telling me that story is what Ram Dass would say, you know, one of his teachers was channeled. And that being, I think, said to him, you know, just because something doesn't have a body doesn't mean you should trust it. And so a lot of encounters people have on ayahuasca, I think, are with legitimate beings from the astral realm, but not necessarily who they say they are. So it's like, when a being says to me, why do you always come through the back door?

Because of the resplendence and the beauty and the glory of the trip, I can think, yeah, you're right. I'm forbidden from psychedelics. Thing I've never met before, who I'm seeing. I guess I'll believe you because you're astounding in your lack of embodiment in the normal sense. So I'll believe you. But it's like, why?

Disown and throw it out the fucking window and see what happens. And for me, it's weird when you start realizing, when I've realized the manacles holding me back, the things that are keeping me locked in are not the darkness as much as my attachment to the transcendent experiences I've had. And then the very natural desire to replicate that. And because you won't, it's gone. I don't, you don't know that lady was out there. You don't know if she was sticking her tongue out at you,

telling you, you will never get the answers to your question. You know, you should have stuck your tongue back out of her. Because it's like, okay, who are you? Who do you work for? Where's your fucking credentials of disembodied entity? Why do I have to believe that I won't get these answers? It's such a stern. You got this stern thing.

It's like, okay, well, next, next, who can I talk to next? I'll take the next one. You know, but I do think there's something to be said for disowning it, to like make the blast. And that's why a lot of blasphemy is good to me. Like that's why I think there's something to be said for blaspheming. There's something to be said for, you know, occasionally like doing whatever you think the worst.

This is why I'm from, you know, some of my friends are satanists and why I really appreciate what they're up to. Is they're helping people who've been indoctrinated into like really abusive fundamentalist, fucked up, like sex negative, shame filled. Like conditioning programs that are disguising themselves as Christianity, they're helping them like disengage via some symbolic blasphemy, which I think is like very useful anytime you find yourself falling under the spell of any kind of powerful singular being.

So whoever your goddess lady is, I wouldn't call her back. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think I had like a similar, also just like a response to like blind positivity, which like I was living in like delusional positivity for a while, because things were going well. And like, yeah. And then when things stopped going well, you're like, well, like it, where does the positivity come from?

Like it's, is it come from other things or it comes from me? So then I just went online. I was like, I'm going to, I'm going to like dig this ship into the ground, spent like six months just like going to raves, drug sex, like doing all those things. I was like, fuck the positivity. I'm a bad boy now. I'm in my Justin Bieber bad boy phase. Let myself like go the fuck off in that way.

Then you get to like a point with that where you're like, okay, that didn't really work either. And then I mean, like I'm kind of like, like when I say I'm godless, I just mean that like, I think nothing, I'm in a phase right now that will obviously change. But I'm like, nothing has worked. Nothing like the, the drugs have never worked fully. The sex has never worked fully. The, the art, even the art, like I thought art was my salvation.

I'm like, that's not even really it either. It's like there's only if only. Oh my God, I would love, I would love it if those things worked. But I do think that it's like in the alchemical laboratory of your life, you must do these experiments if you're drawn to them just to make it. Because if, what if they, what if it did work? Like what if you do end up being someone who like, no, actually sex, it's working for me. Like fucking all the time.

It's getting me in shape. I'm getting plenty of sleep. I'm making great decisions. No one's mad at me. Everything's fucking awesome. This is working. You never know, it could be. There are, I'm sure there's people out there like, oh, I fuck.

Oh, he clogged. And it's awesome. I love my life. I love my life and the same with drugs. Maybe there's some possibility out there for these things. But as far as like the godless thing goes, I mean, I think that it's an important, it's like, I can't smell right now. You know, I got COVID and now I can't fucking smell.

It's been going on still. And so I can like kind of smell stuff if I get real close, but I can't really smell. If I am not careful, I'll panic. I'll be like, what the fuck? Am I never going to smell again? I'll never smell a forest. I'll never smell. But then if I just kind of like, let it be, all right, I'm not smelling right now.

It's really not that big a deal. And I think the truth thing is you could try that with God, which is like right now, you're godless. Yeah, whatever. And there's no God for you. You're living in a material universe. And right now that there's, there's no God. This is actually, you know, the reason I have my meditation teacher is just because that one of the Ram Dasser treats, I don't remember which one.

Apparently I asked Ram Dasser, one of these people, if Hanuman was, you know, if everything is changed, isn't, couldn't Hanuman change the deity that you all are so like into? Couldn't he die basically or go away forever? How does that work? And Nick Turn was like sitting in the audience. In fact, that was super funny. And then, because he's a Buddhist, and then he went to Ragu and was like, Duncan seems like a nice person and everything.

But does he even have a practice? Like, what's his thing? And then Ragu told me, I was like, fuck that guy. Fuck that guy, do I, no, I don't have a practice. And then I was like, you know what, I want to, that's going to be my meditation teacher. And so then we started working together. And that was one of the first things he said to me when we started working together was, you know, my teacher told me this any minute.

This is hopeless. This is a hopeless situation, right? Yeah. And when he said that, that's when I knew like, ah, okay, great. This is definitely for me. This is the thing. Because that non-denial, that non-denial of the quality of reality that is legitimately hopeless, that thing where you're like, I can't fix this.

No matter how fucking high I get, no matter how much I achieve, no matter how much whatever weird rearrangement of my external universe or internal universe I try to do, there seems to be this inescapable suffering, which I think translates to godlessness for some people. So you say that to the wrong people and they'll be like, no. There's so much to fight for. Affirmations, yeah, yeah, yeah. And there's something really necrophiliac about that to me. It's like, you know, when people put too much makeup on a dead body and you go to the funeral

and you're like, still dead, you know, too much lipstick and dead. Yeah, I like it when they're really done off. I want like a full face beat. I like when they look like a drag queen. If you're going to do it, honestly, if you're going to do it, go all the way. If you don't do, don't try to do well, half dead, half tan or whatever the fuck that is. But you know, I think there's something in what a lot of people call the positivity movement that reminds me where it's like, are you really like a positive person or are you just a mortician

for the truth? Like, are you just like finding different ways to put blush on something that's like, we all know it's fucking dead right now, friend. You know, and so to me, there's something really like, and then it's not enough that they put makeup on this reality of suffering, but then they literally try to fuck it. They're like, marrying, netting it to try to make it. And it's going to do what you want it to do because it's not real. It's dead.

It can't fight back. So now they're making it like say things and act in certain ways. And it's so fucked up, right? It's like necrophilia, metaphysical necrophilia. And even worse, it doesn't fool anyone. But yet, there is an audience of people who are like, oh, it's so fucking beautiful. It's like, but they know it's dead, too. So you get a feedback loop of just necrophiles.

So I think. It's also so weird that we're supposed to, sorry. No, please. Thank you for, I don't know what I'm talking about, necrophilia. Thank you, Jordan. We're like, at Futurals, we're supposed to be like, look how gorgeous they look. Like, why are we, why are we looking at them being like, wow, they're fucking hot as fuck? Like, yeah, it's very bizarre.

No, what are we going to do? Like our compliments to the fucking mortician. This is a statue made of meat. It's like kind of sculpture, a genetic like flesh sculpture. Do you think this there's like some metaphor in the like, the societal obsession right now, makeup is like, never been bigger. Like the industry of makeup, it's like cross gender now. Like it's like as big for men as it, maybe not as big, but like,

is it like the death of society? Society keeps dying more and more. And like, that's why makeup has to be more and more on. Look, man, I got a more positive take on that. You know, I'm honestly makeup adjacent. I'm not that far away. I was looking at the Taliban. You know, they put, they put on, what do you call it?

You put on your eyes. Eyeshadow. They put on eyeshadow. Yeah. The Taliban, they put on eyeshadow. They look fucking good, man. Yeah. Like the beard eyeshadow thing looks really cool.

And so honestly, I've like been like, you know, maybe I'll, why not? What do I have to lose? Put on a little fucking eyeshadow, like the Taliban. Yeah. But I had, listen, I don't think, I don't, I don't know, I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. Like I think it's a putting makeup on your face while you're alive actually. I think that's pretty cool.

It's when you're, when you're putting makeup on a thing that is the truth and you're trying to repaint it in a way to make it seem different than it is. I think that's where shit gets fucked up. And so this is to me the, why, you know, I, after my dad died, I called Raku. I'm fucking crying. I'm so brokenhearted. And I say to him, this hurts. And his answer was yes.

Yeah. Dumb it. It hurts. It hurts. Yeah. No attempt to make me feel better. No attempt to like do anything other than. Yes.

It hurts. And to me, especially this time when however many people have fucking died suffocated to death. Yeah. There's something increasingly profane about, you know, trying to do some kind of like. Everything's great. Yeah. It's like, okay. This hurts.

This fucking hurts. This hurts. And that's, that's, to me, if I stay there, then I, then, then like when things don't hurt or when I have moments with my family or when like, I know it's, it's real because I've acknowledged the hurt part. Yeah. You know, I've, instead of trying to get away from, I mean, I like, so I, the godless thing, it's just like, this is why I love the first noble truth of Buddhism.

There is suffering. That's it. Acknowledgement of it. There is suffering. Yeah. And it hurts. Period. And it wouldn't be suffering.

It hurts a little bit. It hurts. And it's like, you know, when I'm having problems in my own life, when I'm having problems with my marriage, when I'm having problems with my personal, like looking back at decisions I've made that I literally, that I just can't change. And I just, instead of trying to revise it in my head or pretend it's something other than it is, I just say, this is it. Yeah.

And it sucks. And it's might not get better. Yeah. And I don't, you know, somewhere there, there's a feeling of like, centeredness at the very least and, you know, you know, the, the, what happens if you find God? What, you know, how does that even look or work? I mean, yeah, I mean, people do all the time. And then it goes away.

Yes. That's right. It goes away. Yeah. And, and, and, and this is what I love about Bhakti Yoga in particular, the, so there's an acknowledge, so that there's different ways to connect with God, actually. And some of them are the devotional path offerings, you know, burning incense. But some of them are weirdly like the longing part,

the pining, the acknowledgement of the separation from the divine is considered, and the longing for the divine is actually considered as much a connection with the divine as hanging out with God. So the godlessness in fact is considered a sacred experience, you know, that, that when Jesus is calling out Father, why be forsaken me? That's a holy moment. That's a sacred, so weirdly, even though I don't like being on the godless side, of things, when they're, when all the magic is gone and like, or he was flirting.

You said that's Kiki is his dad. He's just like, I mean, like, what do you do when you like someone? You kind of like, or like, well, maybe I'm not going to be here for a little bit. And like, oh, right. Make a mystery. Hard to get. Yeah. Playing hard, playing hard to get.

Yeah. Well, it is a bit of a gift, you know, I mean, it's like, you don't like there, if we're even going to believe in God as a concept or something. The assumption is, is like, you know, either we're dealing with some kind of perfected thing or we're dealing with a thing that's evolving just like us. I mean, it is quite, I mean, this is a thought I don't like to entertain that much, but maybe, you know, what was that book that got popular? He's just not that into you.

Yeah, yeah. I mean, is it possible that God at some point was just like, eh, lost cause. Sorry. Sorry, humanity. Yeah. I mean, kind of two ships passing in the night. Look, I know I made you and everything.

Yeah. I mean, he's done it done it before. He obviously dinosaurs were not doing it for him. Yeah, fuck those things. It was like, not it. And then like, yeah, we're not going to be it either. I mean, it is crazy that people like think that we're it. That's like where this apex, like that we're going to keep going.

It's like so, so obvious that like, like we haven't done anything right. Really? Like, we've gotten some things right. Ask him, but it, it all ended up here. I guess the environmental collapse. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yeah.

Again, it's like, look, I, the what I remember like flipping through some book and there's like a picture of some ruins in the jungle somewhere. And the caption read, this was once a major city. We're not really, it was something that we were not really sure the people who lived here. And then, you know, you're just flipping through the book like, what? Major. It was a major fucking city. New York city.

And they're just like, yeah, we don't really know what that was. Okay. On to the next page. And here we are in like our cities. Like, you know, like, no, this will be around forever. This would, this would really be around forever. Now, of course it won't stop, stop, stop, stop with all that. But it is funny.

You know, human, an individual can take pride in that idiot assessment of us as a species, or, or become a lot like overly alarmed when you're like, oh my God, I think things are beginning to collapse. Yeah. Not, how could this happen? How could it not happen? Yeah. Yeah.

Like literally everything that's what happens on this planet is, is collapsed. And then people are like, you're being negative. You're, you're being too dismal. You know, and it's like, no, I'm not look around in Buddhism. They would sit at the edge of pits and watch bodies decompose. The monks would do this. They would sit there and meditate and watch their faces collapse and rot, smelling the stink, flies getting on top of them.

And they would do this so that they could completely familiarize themselves with the actual reality of what it is to be a human being. A drop of meat and dew on the fucking garden, on the, on the garden of time. And all of us so fucking stuck on meditating that. Not, not to make a cheesy joke, but it does, it, that is kind of what living in LA feels like. Oh yeah. It's like you're just watching, like you're watching death all the time.

Like it just feels like death is there and like we're kind of participating in it, but kind of just watching it. Yeah. Maybe Angelina knows our monks in a way. Yes. I mean, well, yes, I think that the moment you just, I think that's really the only shift that needs to happen is like just what, you know, the inquiry is what's real. That's the question.

What, what, what's really going on here? What's the truth? And then, you know, as much as you can, you know, don't try to, to like, don't try to avert your eyes from it or restructure it or, you know, that's, I've always, whenever I'm doing that and in the worst moments, it's not like things get better, but it's like, at least I don't have to have the anxiety that goes along with being an idiot, ignoring a being an ignorant dope or like, you know, pretending things are different than they are.

I mean, fuck man, when I got cancer, I remember asking the doctor, because I had all these shows like coming up and I was like, can I, I could still do this tour, right? And the doctor looks at me and he goes, you have cancer. You can go on tour, you have cancer. You know, and it'll look on his face was a look of familiarity because he deals with people with cancer sometimes and every single person who gets cancer, they try to like, all right, well, you know, I'll just go back to work.

It's like, you're, we're cutting your ball off on Tuesday. Yeah. You're not going in. So I think, you know, with COVID, that's happening where, and everyone's like, these idiots, they don't believe in it. It's like, they're not idiots. They're going through the stages of grief. Fucking denial is one of the stages and it's like, and it's real.

It's real. Dude, I've heard about people, because I was like getting radiation therapy. I've heard about people who in between their radiation therapy sessions for cancer go out to their car and smoke cigarettes. You know, so the first for me, like, I love that you're saying you're Godless, because it's not, you're not denying your reality. Like you're, it's a, it's a, it's a, I mean, it certainly isn't like a pretty sounding thing to say.

You know what I mean? There's not, it's not, I can't think of like, it's not exactly like these days, what you would call fashionable to announce that you're Godless. Or is it? You know what I mean? So I think it's a kind of chic. I mean, like it's always been chic to be Godless, right? Well, it's chic to be like an intellectual atheist.

Exactly. But when you say Godless, you, it's a different way of saying it, because Godless is like, it implies a, an orphan quality. You know what I mean? Where like, you hear someone say, you know, I'm a scientific materialist, atheist, there's a general feeling of like, I never connected with this bullshit. Right. Whereas what you're saying is, is like, it really is.

Orphans, yeah. Dad, where are you, daddy? Yeah. Daddy, where I'm Godless right now, you're lost at the mall. Yeah. You know, like, where's your, the worst, by the way, when you're a kid. Yeah. I've, I feel like I've been lost in the mall for most of my life.

Yeah. I mean, that's like why you try to find daddy anyway, right? Yeah. I mean, like, yeah, like daddy had to be there to lose daddy. But, you know, a lot of it is, a lot of it is being lost in the mall for me in, in my experience, at least. I mean, how does every fucking Disney movie start? Every Disney movie for kids starts with a parent dying.

Yeah. You know, because this is the human experience. Yeah. Is like, where all of us are orphans, we're on this fucking planet or sentient, that there appears to be some intentional design behind it, regardless of what, you know, very intelligent people might say. You look at the world and you're like, my God, something seems to have made this. Yeah.

I certainly, everything around me that is like, that I love is made, you know, the isn't of the natural world has been constructed. And so, but nobody's writing back when you call out, when you call out. So as a species, we feel like orphans, then our parents die. Yeah. You know, I don't know, are your parents still here? Your mom's still here? Your dad?

That's so crazy. For a second, I had to think, but yes, both of them. I have like, that's weird. But yes. Yeah. But you know, you know, and everyone knows. And so it's like, you know, and when I'm with my children, I have to look at them knowing that there's a truth.

Yeah. You know, like we just, we had to euthanize one of our dogs and, you know, try explaining that to a two and a half year old where Piper went. Because they ask, where's Piper? Like, you know, we are out in the yard just playing and all of a sudden he starts going, Piper, Piper, Piper, Piper, Piper, where's Piper? And you have to, you know, try to explain that to them. Like my wife was a nanny for a long time.

She has a great way of saying it, which is dead as fuck it. No, I'm just kidding. No, she says, no, she says Piper's body stopped working, which is true. And it's something they can understand. But how long before they draw the connection? Wait, if Piper's body stops working, well, your body stopped working. Oh, my body stopped working.

And so, you know, we all are in the same boat in that regard. I mean, there is like the godlessness, the sense of disconnect is a reality. Yeah, that's real. It's also it's it's interesting to think about Disney movies because it's like, yeah, the parent dies and then they they always like find some like dumb ass friend. It's like always like a dumb fucking friend. But like, yep, the friend helps them. And like that's I kind of, yeah, maybe Disney is pretty cool, right?

Oh my god. Yeah, like they figured out like this like weird tarot card progression of the hero's journey from, you know, or what? And I think an occult circles is known as crossing the abyss, which is, you know, at some point, you have to confront the reality of your inevitable, complete, total annihilation, not annihilation in the way like or the way Chuggum, Trump or Rinpoche puts it is, you can't watch your own funeral. It's not going to happen.

You're you you don't get to end with the paradox of like a lot of versions of what they call enlightenment is that it's like the you that starts off wanting that thing will not be the you that becomes that thing because the that you is like a dream. It's a figment, a fragment. I mean, bodies die. Our personalities are equally. I mean, fuck, wait, you know, the godless thing. Yes, now you now keep deconstructing.

You know, it's like, OK, there's there's no God. Now let's keep work. Let's keep now. Let's look at the identity itself. Where's my identity? Where am I in my body? I mean, you know, plenty of scientific materialist atheists are completely fine letting go of the idea of God.

Not a lot of times I don't blame them because the symbols that they're using for it is ridiculous in a literal interpretation of of, yeah, I don't blame you. You mean an dude with a beard. Yeah. Has a course. I don't have that God either. I don't know what the fuck that is. And if I met that God, I wouldn't.

I'd be like, well, I don't know. You might have. Yeah. You're not interesting to me, but but the but you know, they won't let go of their identities. Like that's the next step is like when you start becoming familiar with what you think is a you, then you realize the same thing starts happening with God that was happening with God will go all the way all the way down to wait. I don't really have a self.

Where am I? What what is experiencing all of this? Where is the experiencer and and and so and that can be quite terrifying too. It's starting to are you on Tik Tok? I just did my first time. Really? Yes, dude. It is.

It's really wild on there. Like it is like being in that world like going to visit that city is like it really. But it does feel like there from what I see on it, there's like five identities or like everything is being like mashed up into like compartments of identity. And like you have to kind of fit in to one of the identities and like all the language inside of the identity is the same. They're like different species. But like if you're going to be recognized by the platform, you do have to fall.

You can't stray really from the algorithm or like what the identity is. So I feel like we're already like moving into a place where like identity identity to to younger people is way less of a thing or it's like way less way less individualized at least. But I'm like even like time has started to feel so weird to that when you say like you can never watch your own funeral. I'm like well like we technically probably there probably is an app or like there will be something where we can like put ourselves at our funeral. So like why is that why is that different than actually be like the reality is starting

to bend inside of these these things. Yes. So yes right the like whatever the collective reality or like default reality is you know like weird seismic shifts and weird like you know I don't know ontological quakes like trembling through the zeitgeist where like yeah we do get these moments of like God I've had moments of like well what if we don't actually get to die you know like I went through a period in my life of like I don't want to die then when I went through it then I went into a period of like maybe I'll live forever and I thought that was a good thing

then I got cancer. But now looking at like the technological landscape and the prognostications by very brilliant people about what's coming now I've started toying again with the idea of like wait maybe I'm not going to die only this time it's like oh no yeah maybe we're not going to die maybe like there maybe like like death is what there was a kind of like a trap door for people before us yeah all these people were able to get out but now we're the ones that have to do this forever yeah you're not getting out you're not there's no escape like and not even through like you know in um Greek mythology you at least get to drink from this river that makes you

forget your identity forever. Lath is what it's called and then you're reborn but we don't get what if we don't get to do that what if we don't get to drink from the river what if our con like and you you know you and I are both in a little bit of trouble in the sense that because we've been imprinted onto the algorithm yeah and you know what I mean there's no reason why after we our physical bodies die yeah that some simulated virtual version of us isn't going to echo forever through the internet in some form or fashion I mean the real hell would be not only not getting to drink from the river but getting stuck in one identity like you have to choose that one identity and like that's it forever like there you go that's who you are

no change there you go that's Jordan that's it you that point that is the one of the fundamental points in Buddhism and it's the point that like everyone who first encounters it is like I want to be this forever and and when you hear the point of like there is no permanent identity there is no permanent self there is no permanent anything a lot of people recoil because they're like no no I want to be a fixed singular thing but you get it because that is if if we were like unchanging if we weren't fundamentally impermanent it we would be in hell hell hell oh my god yeah I imagine like today if I had to do that like Jesus fucking Christ it's like the only I mean like that is the only real hope and the only real like truth is changed

it's like at least like that is to me that's hope it's like who okay yeah and I mean not get better but at least it's gonna get different like undeniably it's gonna get different well you know the even better is the in that once you start you know really analyzing the identity and or what you think of as yourself where are you in your body who is the experience or who is having this experience who am I today versus who I what you know one of my friends one of my friends like was in a float tank in the basement and Tim Leary and Rom Doss were sitting next to the float tank and my friend was high as a fucking kite in this float tank and they didn't know he was in there

and so he like opens the float tank and sits up and sees like Tim Leary and Rom Doss there I think they jumped because they didn't know he was in there and then Rom Doss looks at him and goes who are you now so so it's like you know this analysis of the identity is where I think and you know is where you begin to experience something called spacious this or what fundamental goodness is what it's translated into which is that actually it's the reality of our ephemeral self that is is the path that's the path that that where I I can find

something real you know or at least you know something that isn't dependent on some on you know my fucking downloads of my podcast or my you know my yeah things lining up in my earth realm life or or because it doesn't have to you know if you depend on that even in the most refined way you know because god aren't the most miserable people you know the ones who have the highest expectations for everything yeah you know they're they're fucking miserable they they can't enjoy anything the the food's too cold the food's too expensive the people they're with aren't quite good enough their hair doesn't look good that day their complexion is fucked up that day they're always tormented by their inability to line up phenomena yeah

my baby on the other hand dune I could take him and he could be fixating on blocks or whatever and I can pick him up and just bring him somewhere else there's no like yeah what the fuck are you doing yeah yeah yeah just pure surrender you know to his reality not to say he doesn't cry yeah and stuff not such a fan of like getting his diaper changed or like you know there's moment but I'm just saying there's a I'm sorry man if I'm going on and on too much no no no I'm I'm thinking about if I if I agree with don't like babies hate change not as much as you as I thought before I had uh not as much as I thought before I had kids it's like they need stability they need it like if my if my baby doesn't get a like naps when it's time for his nap yeah he'll get really

grumpy and stuff but they're pretty surrendered they can't walk or really like yeah navigate so they have to surrender to the fact that they're always going to be being picked up and moved somewhere else there there's a there's a you should check this out when you get a chance there's a you may have already read it it's called the it's called the sin sin ming it's the writing of the third paid third chinese patriarch of zen and I'll just read a little bit to you yeah the great way the great way is not difficult for those who have no preferences when love and hate are both absent everything becomes clear and undisguised make the smallest distinction however and heaven and earth are set infinitely apart if you wish to see the truth then hold no

opinions for or against anything to set up what you like against what you dislike is the disease of the mind when the deep meaning of things is not understood the mind's essential peace is disturbed to no avail I fucking love that yeah goals you know try that and yeah godless town you know like okay and it's it's it's wild man I feel like some of my worst moments have been my best moments when I've just bit managed to exercise this shit you know when I'm just sitting somewhere by myself furious dejected terrified but instead of trying to make that better or pretend it's different just being like I am furious yeah I am dejected I am terrified and somewhere in that it's like yes yeah it's the whole thing yeah yeah you get to be godless

fucking enjoy it yeah I mean god forbid look god forbid god shows up again you know what I mean once god comes knocking at the door I'm gonna have to answer or even yeah I'm busy yeah yeah I read that like you yeah I enjoy my godlessness I mean I still just pray even when I'm godless though you know I still pray just because it's like well you know message in a bottle yeah what yeah or maybe god doesn't exist yet have you ever played around with that idea I mean yeah a couple of times recently like god hasn't quite come into being yet but will come into being but right now that we're like actually like the thing that we think is what people are saying with god is like actually an echo from the future not to be too weird or that it's like we've

made it this thing that is like omnipresent and for and always working like maybe it takes time off like we need to take time off so like why would why would every it can't just like always be on the clock no no taking some time on vacay this last few years here's a good one Thomas Merton you would like him you know who that is Thomas Merton no he's a theologian he was a I think he's like a Jesuit priest but he wrote all these a good writer and he wrote that you know people will say look at the world look at all this horror look at all this suffering how could you say god exists with all this horror and with all this suffering and his response was look at human beings look at how vicious we are look at how cruel we are to each other look at how much technology we have to

destroy each other the fact that we have not destroyed ourselves yet seems to indicate that god must exist you know like it works both ways yeah like why should we even be here at all yeah but I don't need I don't I again I whenever yeah whenever I sink into the that state of like oh there's no god it's I just will I just hang I just hang out there yeah and keep praying and keep praying you know uh yeah because who cares what's the worst what's gonna happen you'll die somebody gonna hear me pray and be like there is no in there you were wrong that's gonna be me that's gonna be me yelling at you loser then where are you yelling me when I'm after I've died I'm like well something's here Jordan let's do a fucking podcast on the other side oh my god if there's

recording equipment and you know yeah I think yeah well you know to be honest you seem like you're a little too hard on yourself Jordan first man you seem a little too hard on yourself maybe so maybe so I I can also laugh and have a good time though you know I believe you you're very fine for one I think you're very funny I think you are a comedian I think that um you're not on the decline whether you and again this is my I'm not trying to put lipstick on the thing at all uh and I but more the more importantly it does seem like you've just you're like you're you might be being a little too hard on yourself I think so I think so and I uh I'm okay with it I have to be okay look there is something hot in it you know the fucking scarlet letter

when that dude's whipping himself with a belt isn't that kind of fucking hot you know what I mean like like there's something super sexy about like whipping yourself by yourself self-flagellation is like it's just you know and in particular when you're doing it for some patriarchal god I could see how there's something like hot in that but it's like if you are going to self-flagellate um look like I I think just be very familiar with who's flagellating and who's being flagellated yeah you know what I mean like yeah like like you know it is a curious thing that we can be hard on ourselves yeah you know what I mean because then like there's the part that's being hard and then there's the part that's being attacked you know and those two things like are really the same

fucking thing it's a very bizarre situation and once they come into one like that's kind of easier when the attacker and the attack you know come together especially it's easier to do when they're both you like if you're attack if you're if you're up against another force like you're gonna probably have to fight or reach some sort of agreement but when they are the same being like hopefully it would be easier to come together and make peace yeah I mean I think what you just said is the way to do it I'm fine with it yeah it's like the whole game gets fucked at that moment the whole game falls apart I mean like the whole flagellation can't work if you're fine with it yeah it's not flagellation yeah no if no one's gonna hurt then what's the point

well that's why we pay our dominatrixes but it's definitely not like anyone who's going to a dominatrix isn't like actually no I really want you to like actually not let me go yeah don't release me and hurt me I'm sure there's one or two yeah yeah Jordan I could talk to you forever man will you will you come back on the podcast please so we could continue this conversation babe come on I you know you're you're you mean oh what's going on are they they're coming for you man I I'm telling you this is a recurrent theme of my podcast because like I live I live down the street I did my studio must be near like the most fucked up person in Asheville because like fire trucks every day just goes soaring down

my street so I don't know what's happening yeah something I'm tempted to one day just post up and follow them to see where they're going there's a Chipotle down there that's my cynical idea it's like it's lunch break for the Asheville fire department you must come back we have to keep this dialogue going I love it man I I really love your honesty and I'm like I'm gonna spend the rest of the day being godless and I'm excited about it I'm gonna gonna walk around for the rest of the day just experiencing that godlessness if I can I'm honored to talk to you Duncan I think you're amazing thank you you've you've really uh yeah you've you've helped shape my life and like even if I'm not using the lessons that you taught me right now they're still inside of me and you know

I'm gonna use use the lessons that you taught me today um and I'm gonna use the lessons you taught me friend I'm going I'm going home I'm gonna go whip myself with a belt yeah no I'm just kidding but I do like the idea of like you know you've made me start thinking like what is my what is my relationship with God who is God yeah what is this God that I'm great to and what are you gonna yeah cut to like a week later Duncan Trussell has disappeared my plan worked oh my god listen so we'll have to do this again soon though okay like I'm gonna maybe next month or something if you're up for it like we should keep the dialogue anytime Duncan I think you're amazing thank you Jordan and you look you look really good and you don't look

fat you look you know I've been on a diet thank you you look really good you're a handsome guy handsome god bless you Jordan you too man thank you that makes me feel real good after I hang out after I stop recording I'll tell you what I've been doing okay thank you Jordan how did Krishna bye Duncan that was Jordan first man everybody follow him on Instagram please try out my glorious sponsors feels upstart and of course purple all those offer codes if you forgot them or at dunkatrussell.com do subscribe to my patreon patreon.com forward slash DTFH and god bless you for listening we will be back next week I love you and I'll see you soon hearty Krishna a good time starts with a great wardrobe next stop JCPenney family get-togethers to fancy occasions

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