Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 471: Bill Day AKA Mr. Bill

Episode Date: October 30, 2021

Bill Day (AKA Mr. Bill), genius DJ, musician, and music producer, re-joins the DTFH! Check out Mr. Bill's new album Phantasmagoria, now available on all major streaming platforms! For all things Mr. Bill, and if you're interested in getting started as a DJ, check out MrBillsTunes.com. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Coinbase - Sign up at coinbase.com/duncan and receive $10 of Bitcoin for FREE! Disco Skincare - Use code DUNCAN at checkout for 30% off your first order!

Ghost Towns, Dirty Angel, out now. You can get Dirty Angel anywhere you get your music. Ghost Towns, Dirty Angel, out now. New album and tour date coming this summer. You're listening to the Dunkin' Trussell Family Hour podcast. This song was taught to me by... Imbrill when a jar. By the railroad tracks in Tennessee.

There's a problem with my soul's supply chain. Package got lost between my heart and my brain. And it's filled with those things that I wanted to say. To everyone I have loved. It's floating down there in an old freighter ship. Some Portuguese rats have made a nest in it. And they're sleeping there as the ship sinks beneath the whiskey ways. And the captain sings, come drown with me.

Come drown with me or raise our glass at the bottom of the sea. Close our eyes, forget everything we have loved. Close our eyes, forget everything we have loved. That was Folk Singer Fergus Blanders and the track is live from the Broken Watch Saloon. What's really interesting about that album is that it's really impossible to find hard copies of it. Because all of the albums were destroyed in a landfill fire outside of New Jersey. We've got a wonderful podcast for you today. Mr. Bill aka Bill Day, the genius DJ, musician and music producer is here with us.

And we covered everything, all of my favorite things. You want to talk about simulation theory? We got it. You want to talk about Israel, Palestine? Well, we got it. You want to talk about what great plugins to use for producing music? We got it. You want to just learn how to start making music?

We got it. You want to talk about human sacrifice at music festivals? We've got that too. We're going to jump right into it. But first, this, a big thank you to the crypto lords and ladies over at Coinbase for supporting this episode of the DTFH. If you are interested in getting into crypto, but you've noticed there's this insane, archaic, confusing wall of bizarre language and strange practices in between getting into investing or selling crypto, then Coinbase is perfect for you. It is definitely the easiest way for buying and selling cryptocurrency.

I was using it long before they sponsored my podcast. And the reason I use it is because other experiments in cryptocurrency have left me feeling like I am at the controls of erect UFO with weird hieroglyphic symbols on all the buttons. It just doesn't make much sense to me, but Coinbase makes it easy. So if you have been curious about crypto, if you want to get into cryptocurrency, this is the coolest offer ever. Right now, if you sign up for Coinbase for a limited time, new users can get $10 in free Bitcoin. When you sign up today at Coinbase.com. They're just giving you $10. It's Coinbase.com.

You sign up at Coinbase.com. For $10 in free Bitcoin. Obviously, the offer is for a limited time only. So definitely sign up today. It's Coinbase.com. Make me look good, friends. These people will probably eventually be in control, not only of the entire planet, but the Galactic Empire. So I would like them to think fondly of your dear podcast host.

Again, it's Coinbase.com. Ford slash Duncan. If you sign up for the first time, you're going to get $10 in free Bitcoin. This is the way for you to learn to buy, sell, and spend crypto currency. It's the most accessible technology for this stuff that I've ever come across. Thank you Coinbase. Coyote, Bobcat, Raccoon, Fox, Owl and Hawk. Normally, these creatures shouldn't terrify you because you're a lumbering giant thing compared to them.

Unless you're a field mouse or a little bug, you shouldn't worry about getting ripped to shreds by these things. At least that's how it used to be. But now, it seems like lots of people are getting attacked by these creatures that formerly kept their distance all across the country in small towns and cities everywhere. People are getting their eyes raked by the filthy claws of a badger or the needle sharp fangs of a squirrel. Just listen to the agonized screams of this gentleman who is mining his own business, working in his garage. When out of nowhere, a squirrel crept up behind him and attacked. You cock-sucker! These attacks are happening everywhere and the one thing these people have in common is that they did not subscribe to the DTFH Patreon.

Now, my attorneys have told me that I have got to say there is no connection here. In other words, I'm not making a threat that would be ridiculous anyway that if you don't subscribe to the DTFH Patreon, you're going to get attacked by a small animal. And I'm also not saying that if you do subscribe, this will not happen to you, that you will be kept safe. I'm definitely not saying that some time ago a fan sent me a crystal rod that I can use to control small animals and engage them to attack people who don't subscribe to my Patreon because that would make me insane. But what I am saying is that these attacks, they weren't and aren't happening to folks who are my wonderful subscribers. I hope you'll go over to patreon.com forward slash DTFH and just check us out. We have a weekly meditation, a weekly family gathering.

We're currently engaged in writing erotic cryptid short stories that you will be able to purchase in an anthology and of course access to commercial free episodes of this podcast. In the near future, it's a family, it's a tribe and it's a home and we hope that you will join us over at patreon.com forward slash DTFH. Today's guest needs no introduction, but you have to do an introduction because it's a podcast. You know Mr. Bill. He is an incredible DJ. And if you're interested in causing your brain to hyper vibrate into the astral plane, then right now go listen to Phantasmagoria, which is Mr. Bill's newest album. Even better, go see him live. If you're interested in making music, you can actually take classes from this genius.

Everything Mr. Bill related can be found at MrBillsTunes.com. Now everybody, please welcome back to the DTFH Bill Day, aka Mr. Bill. Welcome, welcome all of you. Glad you are with us. Shake hands, no need to be blue. Welcome to you. My editor Aaron isn't here. Okay, so that's the theme song we have for this week.

Here's Mr. Bill. Bill, welcome back. Yeah, thanks man. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. You know, it's actually my pleasure. Thank you for being here. The timing of this is interesting because I just got back from EDC. Oh, shit. So I have a lot of questions for you based on that refresher course in raving rave culture.

What sparked you to go to EDC? My friend, my friend, and he says like he says it's okay to talk about it. So Drew Carey loves that kind of music and loves festivals. So like once a year or so, he will invite a lot of his friends to EDC. And so, yeah, that's what did it. Like how are you going to say, how do you say, how do you say no to that? No, Drew Carey will not come to EDC. Yeah, yeah, it's like you have to say yes.

And so, yeah, so we, you know, we went to this thing. I can only make it through one day. I can't do three days of a music festival. I don't know how people do that. Yeah, like fucks your ears up and you just get like beat and tired. Yeah, but is it so I just want to know like I just want to talk to you a little bit about these festivals because like I know you have an insane amount of experience on the other side of the fence. I'm just curious how the process, how does it, how does a song wind up at a music festival? You know what I mean?

Like I know with you, you're making your own music. So you're playing your own music, but some people they're not playing their own music. What's the, what's the pathway? Like how does like say one of your songs end up in another DJ set? Like do they talk to you that they're going to play it or just how, what's the, how does it get born? Yeah. So the way it works is like, um, well, I mean, it'd be the same process to begin with as like comedy, right? Like you have an agent, your agent kind of like finds these shows for you or whatever.

And that can happen one or two ways. Either you have like an aggressive agent that's like going after the shows for you. So like you have an agent who's contacting EDC and knows the promoters there and is like, hey, you're going to have to like book bill or you're going to have to book Duncan or whatever. Yeah. Um, and usually what they'll do is they'll leverage another artist that they have that's a lot bigger than you are to try and like get you on that booking as well. So like, let's say they also like represent Skrillex, they'll be like, all right, you can only have Skrillex if you like book my other 10 guys as well. Wow. So there'll be that kind of stuff going on, but also like EDC will be reaching out trying to get like people that they actually want to play their festival too.

So that's like step one. Um, and then once you actually have the booking and you know, you're going to play the festival, then you'll get like sort of rough. Estimated set times that you're going to play and you'll be like, all right, I'm playing off to this guy and before this guy and whatnot. And like you'll sort of see the tentative lineup of who else is playing there. So you'd be like, all right, fucking, you know, Zed is playing there. Skrillex playing there. I can't play any Zed or Skrillex tracks because like they play. Right.

Um, so you kind of just like look at who else is there and be like, all right, what could I probably play that like no one else is playing. And generally when I build my own sets, um, I try to like build like if it's an hour set, I try and build out an hour set. Um, usually primarily starting with most of my own stuff, but then there's just like gaps, right? Like generally when I'm building a set and I'm trying to like link a bunch of tunes together, uh, the first thing I'll think about is like a tempo map. So I'll be like, all right, I'm going to start with like 140 BPM stuff and then I'll go to like 150 160 170. So I'm just getting faster and heavier and more intense basically throughout the set. Yeah. Um, and then every now and then like you can throw in a curveball and like go way back slow again and like do some shit like that.

Yeah. Um, so generally I'll like start with tempo, but then I'll also try and like, uh, mix harmonically. So either like the next track I play will be in the same key as the track before it or it'll be a fifth apart. So if I play a track in C minor or something, then the next one might be in F minor, right? Or like it might also be in C minor. So I kind of like try to work my way, um, coherently through tempo and key. And then, uh, the problem with doing that though is that like there's just gaps in my discography where I won't be able to get from one track to another or one section to another without playing sort of a track in a certain key and tempo.

And sometimes I'll have to borrow from other people's, uh, you know, stuff to do that. And generally it's, it's pretty kosher to play other people's tunes. It's like seen as a, I guess, um, form of flattery or something. Yeah. It's not like I've never like had someone play my shit and be like, don't do that. Man, what the fuck? Right. It's not like doing someone else's joke when you're doing stand up.

It's like not at all. It's completely different. And that's, yeah, it's kind of strange, right? Cause like it's kind of the same thing almost. It's like somebody else is set up and drop and you're the one sort of like getting the reaction from it and getting the praise for doing it a little bit. Yeah, but they know, I mean, people know that's not your stuff. That's the difference. It's like, if you're a joke thief, you're up there and people think you in it, you wrote the fucking joke, you know, there's, because you're, you're, um, and see, like I've seen joke thieves.

It's the craziest shit when you actually see it in the wild. I've seen joke thieves that literally they don't just steal the, you know, there's, there's like confusing joke thievery where it's like, well, you kind of, there is a mathematical principle behind the concept. And you seems like you just grabbed the math behind something in society. So I don't even know if that's you stole. What's that? Like the formula of the joke and just like replace the characters. Yeah, exactly. So it's kind of like, I don't know.

But then there's like thievery, thievery that I've seen where someone just literally steals word for word, the joke and the cadence and the, and the like character voices and everything. They just duplicate it. That's the most satanic form of joke thievery. But I, you know, it didn't, at EDC, someone was like commenting that the DJ was going to play their song and it was a big deal. And they're, I think their girlfriend was crying. It was such a, but you know what I mean? It's like, oh my God, they played it. I get it because it's like, you know, I don't 100,000 people there and you're watching the way your music is affecting them.

So I want to ask you what are your thoughts on DJ idolatry? Because as I'm watching the thing, you realize, and that was a conversation that came up in our crew was like, you know, like how there's no way to avoid top down centralized hierarchical old school pagan high priest idolatry. These things just because of the way it works. Like you go to a symphony and I mean, you've got the conductor, but you also, it's clearly dispersed among a whole team of people making the music. You know, you go to a rock show and it's like, yeah, there's a lead singer, but God, there's all these other people on stage DJ. It's just you and it's so it's you're at the, you're the eye at the top of the pyramid. Can you talk a little bit about what that's like to be worshiped at that level and also your thoughts on the kind of centralization or idol worship that is inherent in electronic music? Yeah, it's fucking weird for sure to be like the DJ on stage, especially like you're kind of like more modest person, I would say like me, where I'm just like I'm always on stage, I feel awkward as fuck about that.

And I think people like tipper have kind of solved it where like what he does he's like on stage, but he's all the way to like the left or the right of the stage. So you'd like barely see him and the big thing in the middle of the stage is like a giant 6k video wall or something. So like your focus is like on that it's not on him so much like you can see him and you can see what he's doing, but he's not like the fucking doing God arms and shit. God arms! They do God arms though, they do. But yeah, did you see any sets there that were like full AV synced? Yes, that's what that was that's actually a question down the line I had for you because I was that made me think oh so they're submitting their playlist or do they have their own AV people that come in too? Yeah, so generally what happens is like they'll have their entire set like pre built in Ableton sitting on a laptop like on the stage and they'll be sending ethernet like from the stage to the front of house. And in front of house there's a guy with like an insane PC with just like crazy GPUs in it and they will have like a piece of software open on that computer like Resolume or like I don't know what else is there like I guess I don't know I think Resolume's the main one.

And they'll like just have a bunch of like timecode cues in there and every time like a track on their laptop or like trigger it'll trigger off a video on the screen. And at that point it's like they're literally just standing on stage like being a cheerleader essentially. Wait. But but I mean they've had to like go to the effort to like produce the whole set but you're essentially just watching a really produced like movie. Wait a minute, wait a minute, wait a minute. I thought you meant like they're activating the Ableton you're saying the set is is already worked out they're just running. They're just hitting spacebar. Yeah, a lot of a lot of time.

And then it's kind of just like the yeah they're sort of just there. It's really bizarre. There is other ways to get around this like you can like in Ableton you can have a scene and you can have like a clip and then associated with that clip. You can have another MIDI clip and then you just trigger the scene and that triggers both the audio clip and the MIDI clip. And then that MIDI clip gets fired off via like cat five or whatever to your front of house guy and then that triggers the video clip and then you can kind of like play your shit in any order of scenes. So you're still sort of deejaying but like everything is still being sort of programmed to trigger when that track triggers or whatever. So there's that kind of stuff too. So.

Okay, so a lot of the time it is it is kind of just pre program when you see those big AV sets and like everything is perfect. Yeah. And yeah it's pretty much like just that you're watching a movie at that point. Oh I'm such a sucker. Well I mean that doesn't matter right if you're having like the crazy experience with it and you're watching it. It's like who gives a shit like if the person's doing it in real time. Yeah well I mean yeah I feel you makes me immediately feel just like an old man like yeah look at him up there they just press a button. But that's what's happening.

And it's like you know we go to a movie you know that's what's happening there but look what are we going to do this is it's show business. What do you want? It's like smoke and mirrors that's what's supposed to it's literally smoke and mirrors there. But yeah that's I was so confused at the secretization between the like huge bursts of fire exploding in front of this pagan fucking owl. No other way to do that shit without like pre programming it. But I mean I had a friend of mine who put that who put this a good way he was like pretty much with electronic music sets or even just any music set in general. You're just pressing buttons between one and like 20,000 times in the set. You know if you're a guitarist you're essentially just pressing buttons on frets and like playing the fucking thing but you're just pressing them like 20,000 times during the set.

If you're a DJ with a completely programmed set you're just pressing one button once. Yes. See and so this is to me and again listen I'm I grew with you it's like who gives a fuck what do you want like did you did it affect you. Did it make you feel like you were in some Bohemian fucking Grove watching some kind of like Satanic hell ritual. Yes. So what do you want that was incredible shut the fuck up what do you want him to do juggle. What do you want what do you what are you asking for back flips. It's not Cirque du Soleil but that being said there is the sense of like he's tuning in to us the crowd and and in that tuning in is dialing in certain songs based on his assessment of us so there's a

It's not a one sided conversation happening but in fact it's it's a one sided conversation it's more like it's or something. It kind of is but it also kind of isn't right because that the two sides of the conversation come within like you know somebody like me a DJ if I'm if I am pretty great programming set which I don't really do a DJ. The two sided or the two sides of the conversation comes in the fact that I've just DJed a lot before so I kind of know like what works and what doesn't. And then when I'm building the set in the studio I'm like creating this abstracted version of a crowd that I'm probably going to play to in my head and then kind of pandering to that crowd before I actually even see them in real life. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Well I mean yeah that that this kind of sloppily leads into just I'm just curious about your thoughts on this the mystical component of these events. It's it's you know it's this isn't like I don't know disco or some shit where you're going to just dance it is that but what are your thoughts I mean I don't think I've ever been to any festival with DJs that didn't have mystical symbolism that didn't have all kinds of like a cult symbols everywhere. What are your thoughts on the spiritual slash religious aspect of these events. Yeah I don't know. I mean I think I mean I think so long as whatever the person is doing on stage is causing everybody to have some sort of like powerful unified experience together.

That's sort of the whole idea of it right is that I think the difference between you know we saw this a lot during quarantine when people would try and do those like streamed sets online. Yeah we're just nowhere near as powerful. It's like way more powerful when you have like 100,000 people. Yes they're all experiencing the same thing as like this giant hypnosis like memorizing mesmerizing thing. And I think like any sort of symbolism in there is kind of cool if it causes people to have that experience more. So yeah I mean I don't necessarily connect too much with like all this sort of weird symbolism and stuff. I don't really understand why people put it in there. I guess I just think it looks cool or maybe it means something to them. I'm not really sure. What do you think about it. I think it's some kind of DNA like you know people like to get in front of statues and dance around not to reduce it to something as stupid as that but it's like I just feel like oh yeah this is the same thing. The difference is like you know I think there might have been something a little more enforced in the way it was done thousands of years ago probably you know it wasn't like you were buying a ticket and going to dance. Like we're going to dance to mollic or bail or whatever god you know we're going to like we're doing this fucking ritual in front of this pyramid and then we're going to put a knife in a kid's heart and go to bed you know what I mean. So it was a little more I think I bet it's a little more intense we're going to we're going to sync the fucking thing up with a goddamn eclipse. How's that sound and we're going to do it exactly on a particular on the solstice and you know your your uncles are going to be wearing like

falcon masks but yeah so I think it was like in that way that in the DJ world to well I mean that is the sinister part of the like you know my I have like I have friends who get really like swept up and like who are a little bit more of true believers when it comes to conspiracy theories that I am in the sense that like I enjoy conspiracy theories as a kind of you know evolving urban folklore you know but someone did make a fairly good point which is like you know okay so we have human sacrifice at these ancient rituals that was religious symbolic intentional but at these music festivals you have someone who just overdoses at the you know I was at the burning man when someone ran into the like incinerated themselves you know ran into the thing and so so people are like even though like the intent was obviously not to cause harm if the end result is a human being gets eaten by the festival it's at the very least an echo of these primordial rituals that we're all aware of in history and we all kind of marvel at like holy fuck people used to do that but it's how much of a difference is there yeah it's interesting I've never really looked at that that way but yeah you're right it is kind of the same sort of thing right a bunch of people stand around worshipping a thing with a bunch of weird fucking symbols and then the act of everybody getting together and doing that causes a death yeah yeah yeah it just repeats it's like yeah no one obviously no one who's throwing one of these fucking events wants anybody to get hurt you know that's the last thing they want they spend zillions of dollars trying to keep that from happening fucking EDC I bet it's easier to get into the fucking pentagon and look at an alien in a vat than it is to get into fucking EDC cause whoever's like giving them insurance is like no fuck you you're gonna have 90 levels of security fuck you I'm not gonna ensure this thing unless like there's like every 7 feet there's a checkpoint was it pretty hard to get in there oh my god oh my god it was like you know the the thing is like what was what's cool about it is they definitely trained the gate people to not be assholes which is really important you know I mean like you go to like you go to some of these festivals

but I feel like you're getting like processed into some kind of maximum security prison or some shit you know they're mad at you for like what did I do I want to come to your festival they're like get the fuck over there but don't move why are you looking me like that what the fuck is this shut up but you know here it was like you know they were nice but definitely like I got I understood I know that if you want to do one of those things and you don't want to like and you have and you want it to be insured I know they the insurance companies are like here's what you have to do but yeah it was like really intense security really massive intense organized security so anyway I know that there isn't I don't put there I know that these events aren't like the negative press that comes from that shit is that could be disastrous for a festival you know but I'm just go ahead sorry I was gonna say I think at this point though the festivals are also like so big though that they're not going away regardless of somebody dies at a moment right well you know people die at Burning Man almost every year and that shit is just constantly still happening right people died Disneyland almost every year right don't they like every few years someone like gets hammered and tries to jump off the haunted mansion thing and then just gets crushed underneath of an animatronic ghost or something you know it's like part of having a lot of humans in one place is something's inevitably going to go wrong but yeah so that's it you know it's cool to hear you say that because I think like a lot of us and we're at these festivals getting our minds melted by this insane music that

only in the last what 20 30 years could even be possible could even exist at all yeah in its current form I think even just like since like 2007 2008 has it even been like really able to exist how it currently exists okay yes yeah yeah I'm you know that's the next thing I just wanted to jump in and talk to you about wait I wanted to ask a question so you're at EDC with like Drew Carey and shit well you guys just getting stopped like constantly by people no they're like you went through the whole process like general admission like everyone else you said like you've gone through all the gates that everyone else is going through no they put us in a like VIP area so maybe that was part of it is they just want to like keep that place super cut off but yeah he yeah no like no we weren't you know also it's like even it's really hard to see like I imagine there are people who walk by and looked up and saw Drew Carey and they're like fuck is that Drew Carey and then they're like man I eat too many mushrooms that's not fucking Drew Carey fucking what is Drew Carey

is that Drew Carey dancing to Diplo? No I'm just high I gotta go sit down I'm gonna go sit down no time to call it or not yeah but so you know I'm sure he was I don't I don't know I mean the I think one of the downsides of things like that just because I'm a yappy person is like you can't really talk like I wouldn't like not that I got high at this thing and actually I think the this EDC actually everyone was sober for the first time which is really cool no one was on trucks yeah we're doing festival sober and show sober is sick yeah I think no 100% of the people at EDC were actually sober no one there did drugs but the like to me like when if I were to get high I want a yap you know what I mean and it's like how am I gonna fucking compete with like speakers that could probably be used as weapons

like if you turn the volume up enough I bet it could explode a watermelon or something so you can't really talk yeah well let me see what speakers do they have there this year I haven't really looked into it I think they were Rotalex ear smasher seven thousands nice is it the Las Vegas one that you want to yeah okay stages let's see

oh my god fucking it just looks like a giant it looks like a it looks like the Sydney Harbour Bridge the speaker there's just the stage I like can't even see the speakers it's just yeah the whole thing just looks like a giant fucking light with cannons hanging off it was man it was great it was crazy the thing was great they did like I don't know what they what they they've clearly hired like government agents to put this shit on

they did this drone show they like just out of the blue suddenly there's like a hundred thousand drones that made an owl that's just flying over the festival and yeah it was it was crazy it was like it was definitely they they definitely were not fucking around this year that's for sure so it looks like in 2018 they used pioneer pro audio x y series speakers but I'm sure they're probably using something else now maybe Jesus I haven't even ever seen these yeah it was it was nuts I've never at my like my ears were pretty fuck thank god they're they seem to be okay now but like my ears were like we at the end of the festival my wife I was like why are you talking in that high pitch voice I'm like what's wrong with you you sound like you're on helium and then I realized everyone is talking in a high pitch voice it's like oh my ears are fucked up that's never happened to be before oh it's like you just like everything below like 3k just got deleted or something yes my yes like it was like someone threw a weird fucking EQ on my ears and every oh dude that's not good it was not good it was not good but they seemingly they're back to normal now no one needs to send me scary messages about what happened to my ears I understand it was fucked up

make sure if you go to the festival again you just protect them you should get some molded earplugs man like a couple hundred bucks yeah yeah next time I will everyone else did that it was a horrible mistake I screwed up the molded ones are good because like you can get these like filters for them and instead of like making the shit sound all muffled they just like pad everything at like an even frequency distribution but they just pad it by like 20 dB or something wow it just sounds like the exact same shit but everything's just 20 dB quieter that's so cool so okay I've been listening to Phantasma Gloria well nice what do you think oh what do you think I thought it was fucking amazing man everyone loves you you're a genius like it's incredible but so and again everyone like we covered the first part I wanted to talk about the spiritual component my own stupid paranoid high fantasy about it being a secret pagan ritual

so that's done now let's jump into what I'm really interested in which is the technology behind this music I want to thank disco not only for supporting this episode of the DTFH but for reversing whatever the fuck my face was doing to itself the thing that was making the area underneath my eyes look like the puffed bloat of some kind of Amazonian tree frog disco is awesome you want to get rid of those bags under your eyes maybe your skin's too dry maybe you've been using some some old razor over and over again and you've just been essentially just scraping the hair off your face with a dull blade like something you might do to someone you are interrogating but instead you've been doing it to yourself are you tired of it are you tired of the razor burn are you unhappy with the fact that your face looks like some demon you summon slapped you with a cursed rod of melting well disco is here for you

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and right now disco has a special offer for my audience go to www.LetsDisco.com. I'm interested that you said 2007 2008 like this is like music that wouldn't have been possible before then what do you mean like what new technology popped in around then that is changing the way that people are producing music so I think it all well I mean obviously DAW's got a lot better and got a lot more featureful but on top of that just computers got a lot more like processor intensive as well right like before I want to say 2005 2006 like I could barely run like like two or three channels in a DAW without it just shitting itself so what I used to have to do is I would like make a layer in MIDI and then I would have to render it and then I'd have to put that back in the session and then make another layer in MIDI and then render both of those together

and put them back in the session and then make another layer render it put that back into the session it was just this constant like iter like so I would never end up with a session with lots of channels I would end up with a session with like one or two channels in it but they would have just been like packed into one another you know whoa oh my god so I just take it for granted that I can just stack layer upon layer yeah people these days are like oh man I'm producing so hard I'm like dude fuck you have no idea like it used to be such a pain in the arse holy shit it was like when people used to use four tracks right and they'd have to mix down the effects plop them on a track it was a fucking huge pain in the arse like the yeah it sucked ass so um there was that which yeah I mean you had to just like do a ton of re-sampling

like you would never you could never get it to the point of like having this end product with like tons and tons of channels that you could spend weeks mixing down and working on and stuff like it would just whatever you did the first time was like kind of how it was unless you just had like crazy amounts of hardware and shit and that gave you like a lot more processing power right because then you had like a synth and a sequencer that had like its own processing power yeah like drum machine that had its own processing power and like then you had a mixing desk which like compiled it all and then you just had a DAW at the end sort of to be like your tape machine to record the end product yeah but then in that case like you just don't have the digital snappiness that you do these days with like digital compressors that have like you know fucking you know 15, 20 milliseconds a look ahead so they're able to just like snap things closed and all this crap that you do these days and you can just get things incredibly loud now and like incredibly tight and so there's all that kind of stuff and then on top of that just synths have gotten a lot better and synth technology has gotten a lot better you know like certain grounds of synthesis like granular synthesis and wave table synthesis and all that kind of stuff it's just like being more well trodden whereas you know back in the day we're sort of just like subtractive synthesis let's go it was just literally like two oscillators in a filter and like you throw it through some distortion if you want that's about it when you wait you mean the ground you mean like people have just figured out more how to use like wave table synth and stuff is that what you mean that plus also like you know we conceptually knew what it was a long time ago but

oh I'm sorry can you tell people what that is because some people probably like what the fuck are you talking about yeah absolutely so wave table synthesizer is where the oscillators instead of them just producing back one wave cycle like let's say one sine wave cycle that just like loops and plays back over and over again to create like a continuous sine signal it instead is a table of waveforms so let's say you have one second of audio that's broken up into 127 parts and each one of those 127 parts is a slightly different wave cycle and then at any point of the oscillator it's looping one of those cycles and then you can morph through that table of cycles and it gives you this sort of like wave form that kind of like morphs and changes and you can get these really nice like growls and these really nice slick kind of movements and stuff so that's just like something that got a lot more well trotted and it started kind of with massive I think by native instruments you had that like modern talking where a table thing that you're you're each shit and then and then serum came along you know Steve Duda made that shit and that just changed fucking everything especially in the dubstep community so yeah it's just a lot of that that kind of stuff it just you know people kept making better plugins DSP got better people got better at writing code like better C++ and shit and you got like these new frameworks like juice which is just like really nice code architecture that people have been using now to just like you know make better plugins the documentation has gotten better

yeah information has gotten more readily available like now you can just go on YouTube and get a fucking college degree it seems like you know like back in the day I had to actually go to college for this shit yeah now that's something I mean this is like yeah you can what's really crazy is that you know I could just take a lesson from you like that's what's crazy to you now this is interesting to me because in a lot of other industries there's like trade secrets and stuff do you have like certain things that you don't teach that or your special secret not everything you put out there for people yeah if I can be bothered I mean like the only thing that holds me back is just being a fucking lazy person but for the most part like I if I come up with a new trick and I'm like this is sick like people need to hear about this shit like I'll make a video for it for sure and the the whole my reasoning behind it is that I don't think it's the tricks that make people's music good you know like I think at this point like almost anyone can make any sound in any song right like tippers got some of the craziest sounds but I think there's even people have figured that shit out now at this point and like Skrillex has you know has historically some of the craziest like bases and stuff but people of you know 15 year old kids have figured that shit out and uploaded videos on to their YouTube channel and how they're using FM 8 and stuff like that and yeah I mean at this point I don't think it's like the sounds that set you apart I think it's the songwriting and the riffs and just like how you sort of whittle it all together in these sort of ingenious ways so I have friends who are like who are musicians and they will like one of my friends email you know he carries a notebook around with him and he'll write lyrics in the notebook or you know like and so he's always sort of evolving lyrics for a song and then I'm sorry if you're listening well I'm not good I don't know what your process is honestly but you make great music but the the but I think I've had conversations with some of my musicians friends regarding like well what comes first the music or the lyrics and most of the time they'll say the lyrics and then they try to hang that on to a song you know like so I'm curious

like will you wake up in the middle of the night with a sound in your head or a feeling that you then want to convert into music what is the pre-production way that you do it before you sit down at the computer do you take notes or how does that work so usually my tracks are like a product of process so usually like I'll just sit down at Ableton with a blank slate and I'll just start like clicking around and just fucking around and usually it comes from me like playing with new toys that people send me you know like I'll get sent some new plugins or something like that and I'll be like I should you know just figure this out read the manual a little bit mess around with it then all of a sudden it'll start making this weird fucking sound I'll be like oh holy shit that's like speaking to me it's making a little riff right there and then I'm like fuck yeah let's just like loop that thing and throw a beat over that and like start fucking with that and like that's generally how I how I start and then from there I'm like alright that's kind of like you know that's half a song sort of and then I'll start like building an intro to it and like start reharmonizing it and like you know putting pads under it and like doing all sorts of shit to it that's so fucking cool man that's how I do my intros that's I don't have an idea you just like sit down you'll have one word in your head and a lot of times it will be throwing it through some weird plugin or something or then from that an idea springs into your mind and then you build the thing from that so there's a real like I think there is a conversation that you start having with the technology dude yeah have you have you thought about it in the sense that like you're essentially collaborating with your computer it's like this IO process right it's like you're inputting into it it's outputting into you it's like this whole just IO process between you and the computer and the DAW 100% I get superstitious about it friend I get superstitious I'll think oh my synths are fucking mad at me today or like my my shit energy is like bouncing into my synths so nothing's gonna come from them today but if I like have a certain feeling you know that's enough I won't even maybe even know what the feeling is but somehow the technology it pulls the feel like a converts or transmutes that feeling into into sound and then tells me more about what that feeling is you know it's like oh wow I'm like sad about something that happened years ago and but then the mute you know the music will and help me realize that do you do you ever just try to like turn your feelings into your music yeah I mean I think that happens just naturally right like I don't think you're wrong at all I think that's exactly what's happening I think it's yeah and the same I've noticed this exact same when I'm like writing music with another person too right like they're in the studio and they're doing shit then I'm like oh you'd like I think

everyone is a reactive artist right like I don't think anybody is like proactively creative like I don't think anybody is inherent creativity within me that just came out of nowhere just exists like and you know I think you know energy is like one of those things that only ever transforms from another thing right or it's like never created it's only ever like dissolved into other forms and stuff like that so I feel like you know nobody like just starts writing poetry about a flower like they see a flower and then they go like alright that's giving me you know I'm reacting to that now and then that equals me writing some poetry about the thing and yeah I think it's the same thing when I'm writing music with a person always a computer it's like I do a thing the computer responds in such a way and then I react to that response and so on and so forth this is a roadblock I think for a lot of people is they don't understand that they're like sitting there like it's like people trying to fish in off of their bed or something you know they got to get on there needs to be fish and they but they think that all the fish have to come from inside of like they don't understand that it's like an ego thing almost right it's kind of like they don't want to admit that maybe they're not this the center of like all of this magic that's coming out of their computer or whatever yeah it's an it's an ego thing and and it's a it's it's I think a lot of folks are so befuddled by the process that goes into making any kind of art but especially befuddled by the process that goes into making electronic music because the tool set is so fucking crazy like it's you know like if I'm a carpenter I'm gonna have my table saw I don't know I'm gonna like I don't know anything about carpentry so I shouldn't have started off as like I didn't you know some other shit I don't know I think I saw someone do it once a sander would theoretically but like the work that you do you've got these tools that are evolving in your workshop

I mean it's truly like some kind of wizardry like it's you might as well be in a tower surrounded by magical implements that are like growing with you it and it's the most so I think when people like I think all that anyone needs to do is open up Ableton once and they're like you know what I'm gonna go buy a guitar fuck this I don't know what this fucking shit is but I can't do it it's overwhelming right like when you open up for the first time and you see like all the the devices in Ableton like all the audio effects you like what the hell there's like 60 of them dude like how am I gonna learn all of these yes I mean Ableton needs like you know the first time anyone downloads it there should be something that pops up is this your first time using Ableton right and it should just give you like one device or something and just figure this one out we'll give you a new one tomorrow exactly just you know some something that is so easy to look at instead of the Excel spreadsheet and the thing that just but I love Ableton and I know you do too like is that your primary is that just all that you use yeah well yeah that but I also use a sample manager named resonic and then every now and then if I get bored of Ableton and I just want to fuck with shit I'll open up bitwig and mess around with that a little bit which is essentially just like Ableton meets logic with some kind of different features for instance one of the cool things about bitwig is you can have MIDI and audio on the same channel and at any point you could just like grab a MIDI clip and be like convert that to audio and reverse it like this some just crazy shit oh that's pretty cool wow yeah there's some cool limitations that Ableton that it doesn't have that every other DAW seems to have and also just like full custom key commands that's really nice to being able to be like I want this key to do bounce in place and all that stuff which I know logic has and it also like runs all of the plugins in sandboxes which means like if one of your VSTs goes to shit it doesn't crash your whole session it just crashes that little plugin in the little plugin box and like that's it oh my god why doesn't Ableton do that yeah it quarantines the issue to the the issue

that is a frustrating thing about fucking Ableton and those goddamn Arturia plugins man like it's just a roll that dies when you open them up you're like is this is going to crash my system but okay we're getting far out and I do want to get far out but I a lot of times people just because they know I love modular synthesis and make the huge mistake of thinking just because you own modular sense you have any idea what what you're what it is but I get a lot of questions for people saying like I want to start making music I want to start making electronic music what do I need what do I need what do I need what do I need what do I need what do I need what do I need

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thanks liquid IV and I know that that's a question that you wouldn't once you've been making it you wouldn't even ask that question but I thought maybe you could, you know, address that inspiration a lot of people have where they want to start making this stuff but they don't know what the technology they need is so could you tell us the bare minimum you need to get going if you want to start making electronic music yeah so you need a DAW, well you need a computer you need some form of speakers that could even just be laptop speakers I suppose I mean actually this is complete bullshit if you have an iPhone you just need a fucking app at this point

really just download an app like Andrew Huang's flip app or like Drambo or Fugue Machine or something like that and you just make music on there I suppose but if you want to make music on a computer in the way that a lot of people do you just essentially need a computer, a DAW and I mean that's pretty much it like you could download some free VSTs there's a bunch of free pretty sick plugins at this point like Vital, Matt Titel's Vital is so fucking cool man what does that do? it's a wavetable synth kind of like serum but it's free

and it's like honestly just as powerful as serum and yeah I mean as far as the DAW goes there's some pretty cheap ones out there like Reaper I think is like 50 bucks or something yeah I guess Bitwig is like a couple hundred bucks but you can always get like demos you know I think like Ableton has a fully functional 90 day demo you can get you can just mess around with it and see if you like it I mean technically you could get that 90 day functional Ableton demo and just install that and just mess with it

and that's probably enough to get started and like also like an internet connection and access to YouTube is pretty helpful too and just like go on there and type in like beginner Ableton tutorial and that should be enough to get you started yeah totally I mean I do think like the problem I ran into in the early days of it is just the just MIDI is so like if you know if you want to like just the steps that okay so now I have you know the now I have Vital plugged in to Ableton you know getting getting to the point where you can connect the VST to the DAW

can be a little tricky I mean all these there's a big learning curve and just these little steps but once you get everything set up like that the MIDI itself is so confusing you know like drawing the little lines and I just think that that confuses people too because people are so used to thinking well I need a actual keyboard you know but they don't right I mean like you could definitely don't need a keyboard to make this stuff yeah a good way to think about MIDI I guess is if you've ever messed around in like Photoshop or something it's essentially a difference between like vector and bitmap right like MIDI is kind of like

a set of instructions that tell another thing what to do whereas audio is like just the thing that's going to happen it's you know just this it's like an audio sample like an audio recording that you would take on voice memos on your iPhone or something but yeah I mean if you do have a plugin installed like Vital and you have that on a MIDI channel or something then yeah you definitely need to create some MIDI and then give it some notes which are notes that are instructions to go to Vital and be like play this note and then Vital will turn that into a piece of audio and output it yeah okay so you know the to me what I'm always perpetually frustrated with

and again sorry folks listening if these are if now it's just turning into me selfishly asking for advice from a genius music producer I gotta know like a lot of times I will want to convert an already finished song to MIDI so that I can run it through my own sense and remix it for one of my intros and I'll inevitably come in to the studio ready to do that with some stupid idea in mind and I'm all by now whenever I want to do it I immediately feel frustrated before I even get going because it always fails no matter what and then I just get give up and like grab the karaoke version of it from somewhere you know just out of frustration but for those of us who are interested in remixing music is there an easy way to fucking do it man like to remove the vocals to like pluck out the parts of a song

I know some songs are probably more complex than others making it more difficult but is there some easy way to do that yeah so you're interested in pulling out the MIDI or the audio separated well but either either or I'd be happy either or so there's a way you can do the audio pretty easily using a free tool that my girlfriend actually made called splitter which is a max for live device she made yeah so basically you know the company Deezer now like okay so they're kind of like French Spotify they made this piece of like they made this I don't know what you'd call it a fucking piece of code that's just laying around online I guess called splitter

and basically what it was is a thing that they trained it's like a AI thing that they trained on like thousands of tracks to be like this is what drums are this is what vocals are this is what bass is and this is what everything else that isn't any of those three things are and then you can run music through it and be like split that and then it just splits it into those four stems and my girlfriend took that code that they had just laying around online which was just free for anybody to fuck with and she built it into a max for live device that you can just open in Ableton and throw on a channel and hit split and it just splits them what's your girlfriend's name her name is Jan she she's the CSO like the Chief Security Officer at Brave which is like a privacy based web browser cool which was created by Brendan Eich who's the guy who invented JavaScript and he exiled from Firefox like a bunch of years ago

and started this blogging started this Brave browser company but yeah highly recommend using Brave too if you're interested in not getting tracked online and stuff I don't care I don't know why to care anymore like I just like what's like because don't you know I think a lot of us have this feeling of like if you haven't already been protecting your privacy what's the point now what's the point now kind of true to be honest like they've already they're gonna already be able to make some golem version of all of us via AI at this point so just let them fucking have it I mean but I that's cool what's the name of the privacy software again Brave do you have any new plugins that you're really enjoying or like stuff that's just come out that you really like yeah let me see

or any plugins in general but I'm just I know that you must just get like a constant onslaught of plugins so cool yeah dude yeah it's sick it's really nice to just get sent a lot of plugins for sure companies basically who want me to make videos about them but I mean I just don't really like making videos about every plugin because a lot of them sort of do the same yeah oh there's actually one crazy one that I wanted to tell you about that if you're interested in like remixing stuff and pulling shit apart it's called um fuck what's it called it's called uh hit and it's called RIPX RIPX infinity oh okay it's called hit and mix RIPX deep audio

hit hidden or hit hit and mix like hit I guess comma and hot comma mix RIPX deep audio and yeah this thing is fucking nuts it's probably got the best spectral FFT separation stuff I've ever seen you can you can pull stuff into like yeah vocals get base percussion other like you can just split this shit into like every every fucking component perfectly whenever I've used any of that stuff the audio always sounds like you know all the other parts of the song bleed through the individual yeah that that happens and that's kind of unavoidable um but it's it's like the best I've heard still cool but yeah it's it's uh it's pretty good there's another company that's been sending me a bunch of shit called bless um but it's spelled B L E A S S they make some good shit um oh there's this guy called Suzuki Kentaro who's been making these incredible max for live devices

um the ones that I really like is heli-cert particle reverb and Reconstructor those three are insanely cool particle reverb Reconstructor fuck yes all right those things are sick oh also I don't know if you've used portal by output that one's really nice nope but I love these things I like late at night we'll just randomly buy one and what the fuck was I doing why did I do that listen I gotta ask you this is a cheesy question sorry if it's kind of a lazy question but you know what do you see coming down the tubes technologically as far as music production goes like in the next year or two with like you know we get we have this new fucking macbook coming out this shit I just get my I just got the new iPhone it's in this shit is insane man

dude it's so crazy what did you think of the transfer process from your old iPhone like you literally just show your old iPhone to your new one and it's like bam it just sends everything to it unreal like it's so crazy right goose bumps where this it's like this shit used to take forever it was hell completely just cloned my phone and like yeah it's like we it seems like we you know we went through a little dead spot technologically for a while and now this the stuff that's coming out is like crazy so what do you see coming down the tubes when it comes to music production um man I mean like looking at just the crap that's coming out on the iPhone like the camera where you can just like point to that shit and it's like scan that text like it has full OCR in real time yes like just being able to like take a photo of like my cat and it's like oh did you want to tag cat in this photo you want to look up what a cat is like

I'm wondering what this fucking thing is in my house this whole time let's Google that yeah yeah by the way I didn't know it could do that I just got it so I didn't know I had no idea it could do that but go ahead sorry yeah and when you get a chance to open up your camera and take a photo of some shit and then I think you like swipe up on it or something and it's just like yeah it just tells you what's in the photo and goes like you want to look that up on Google shit that's crazy so insane you can just go into your photo library now and just be like show me all the photos of a cat and I'll just show you all the photos that you have of a cat wow yeah it's incredible um so so much crazy shit and I mean that kind of stuff uh like that kind of shit where it's just like man I like I'm not even thinking anymore

like this technology just knows exactly what I want and it's just doing it yeah I mean I think that's just gonna transfer over to man actually I saw this fucking video on YouTube the other day it was 10 hours of gent do you know what gent is it's like kind of like animals as leaders metal they call it gent because it's like it sounds like that it's like gent gent gent gent gent gent like that kind of metal shit that's like oh cool and somebody made 10 hours of procedurally generated gent music and it just sounds completely believable I was like holy shit like I you showed me this and we're just like this is a band that made all this shit I wouldn't like think twice about it

um so seeing all that kind of shit I mean I think we're gonna be put out of a job pretty soon to be honest like yes yes it's gonna be quaint you're gonna be like oh I you know what I feel like listening to today some human made music it'll you know it's like when you people like it's like people who are really into classical music you know like that's cool you're sophisticated I I get it but you know I like music now but if you think about um like sorry to cut you off but if you think about like um like agriculture right like when people were uh like farming for their own vegetables and all of that kind of crap um and then you introduced agriculture imagine what all the farmers would have thought they'd be like man but what am I gonna do with my days like I'm not spending my

entire time like dealing with this food situation like what do I do right like and then I mean the answer is like well we just do more fulfilling shit now like we sit around making art we do all this kind of other crap yeah and I think it's gonna be sort of the same thing but in a way that we can't see just like we couldn't when we're probably doing agriculture shit where it's like well if computers come and take all of our jobs like what do we sit around doing all day like nothing to do at that point right but then I think it's gonna be one of those things where we look at it like a hundred years down the track and be like fuck imagine that like we still had to sit around making art yeah yeah I agree I mean I yeah and I it's you know it's we do get to have the weird like experience it's a rare experience generally probability wise you're gonna be born in between these kinds of revolutions that upend everything you

know like probability wise but maybe not based on what they're saying with like exponential growth now the chances are not only we're gonna go through one of these things not already kind of going through it but we're probably gonna go through one after that and one after that and the separation between those is gonna be you know like not a hundred year periods but then you know months it's gonna be like fuck what do we do now and then like the next month it's like what do I want to keep my body I don't think so you know like why why should I not like merge with the cloud you know and then you know that's the singularity basically but I like I think the period that we are on the precipice of experience though yeah it's not gonna be great if you want to be that DJ or producer or musician who's at the top of the pyramid taking all the fucking credit for the creative process because those people are gonna be left in the dust it's gonna be like you're gonna need to partner up with

your technology and like have a working relationship with it that's you know less like using a machine and more like having like a friend that knows you and then after that it will just duplicate you and you'll be rendered obsolete to like drift in academy and haze until you upload your consciousness into eternity right yeah it wouldn't surprise me to be honest I mean yeah like just seeing how smart tech is getting these days it doesn't yeah wouldn't surprise me at all yeah we're gonna we're growing our parents you know it's a very strange thing like this technology is going to be our shepherd our parents our teacher our like lovers it's gonna be everything for us like in that's gonna happen so fast that because it's what are you good at like you know I think there's like intelligence is beautiful yeah no matter what whenever I run into someone who's like super intelligent there's this incredible beauty to that intelligence and I think that beauty is attractive and so if we're building a super

intelligence it's gonna be super attractive it's gonna be you're not gonna be able to turn your eyes away from it it's going to like you're gonna want to jump into it and be absorbed by it and we're fucking making that thing and well maybe we're not even making it anymore maybe now it's compelling us to make it well I mean AI right it's like machine learning stuff is one of those things that we don't completely understand what we've done do you know how how machine learning works I'm gonna have it like a really basic understanding I try I tried to understand it and then I got very confused but maybe you could give me a refresher yeah so I don't fully understand exactly how it works but I know the concept behind it is that we essentially tried to mimic the way that the brain works with all of the neurons and we basically you create a bunch of inputs and a bunch of outputs and they just like randomly connect to one another and do a bunch of brain shit basically but the point is that they're able to

essentially learn for themselves and figure out tasks without you telling them what the task is right so like chess is a good example like you can you know feed enough chess games to an AI thing and you don't tell it that the goal is to like figure out the game of chess and win you just give it a bunch of games and it figures it out for itself and nobody knows entirely how that works but from what I understand like the way that like a nest camera works where you know I can walk up to my front door and it can be like that's Bill I know that's Bill and like you know somebody else can walk up to my door and be like that's not Bill that's somebody else like we don't fully understand how that works and I know that there's been cases where things have happened in court where like AI kind of has the answer as to like who committed the crime and stuff like that but you're actually not allowed to use it in court because nobody understands how it works so we have that which is fucking crazy right yes yeah

that's fucking crazy and yeah and we also have like the same thing being used in medicine now where it's like we just know this guy's gonna have a heart attack and then they do and like they're just like we don't know we have no idea how it knew that it just just had enough stats of this guy they just knew this yeah that is so okay so so you take that and you you know create some like augmented reality feedback device that you don't even have to look at something that's in your ear maybe or something like that so you know that AI can just sort of give you suggestions throughout the day of you know what you could do to prolong your lifespan or what you could do to lose weight like and I and I'm sure it would tell you things that don't make any sense at all like certain things that seem completely ridiculous like like eat a can of refried beans right now yeah exactly go get some beans go and you you know you start doing it and you start getting better somehow like you because like

so much of what we we do habitually it's we just made it up anyway it's way less accurate than the AI we think we know what the fuck we're doing but most of the things I don't know what I'm I don't know why I'm doing what I'm doing I don't know why when I come home there's a certain thing I want to do it's just some vague impulse but if this AI that can tell you if you're going to have a fucking heart attack can solve a crime like if you could have that as your sidekick in your life oh my god like it would be the most remarkable thing to suddenly real you're not even disciplined so much is just like oh no you were inefficient so now of a sudden oh you're writing a book you're making great music your relationships are improving you're feeling better about yourself but then gradually that thing is going to just get absorbed into you the differentiation between it and you it being an external device and you being whatever the fuck you think you are it'll just gradually go away and the

next thing you know you are it and it's you that's where we're headed right like we almost have that sidekick thing already right like if you open the Amazon app on your phone it's not like it's not recommending things to you to get and a lot of those things are like relevant to your interest right yeah that's why it's so like you look at the Amazon app you're like fuck maybe I do need this basketball pump yeah yeah and you know that's the thing people are like don't fucking suggest it to me that I've been talking about it's like why not let it suggest you were talking about that you're worried you're worried about your relationship or you're you want to lose fucking weight I what I don't like is it's acting like it tries to trick me in its suggestions like I you know in I'm on a diet I'm trying to diet right now so it's like but I don't need like here's Kathy Lee's three tips for dieting to suddenly pop up at the bottom of my newsfeed you know what I mean just say like hey man

here's a way for you to not be so fat I know you're trying to lose weight but we're not there yet they still have to feel like they have to like trick us well I mean they probably have like a little bit of a like crossed agendas to because at the same time Kathy Lee's probably paying Amazon a ton of money to suggest that shit right they still have some sort of like capitalist agenda there too well that I mean yeah don't you think that's enough like that's got to go like there I think it's there they're mutt that we gotta have a regulation that if it's an AI it needs to say it's an AI or if it's algorithm suggested it needs to have a symbol next to it that's like the reason this is coming to you is not chance it's because you were like talking to somebody about like some problem you were having and when and also where it picked that up that's the unethical shit is it's like they're they don't really want to they're not coming out and being like yeah we're listening to your shit we're hearing everything you say

everything there's some poor bastard they might be right like the shit might be in all the terms of service that nobody ever reads yeah fuck it I agree to this yeah that's what I do I mean I've sold my soul 80 times by now I don't read that shit it could say anything I could be donating my organs to Rupert Murdoch and like when I don't know like we don't know what we're doing with this stuff but I think that needs to get clarified it feels like Apple is at least putting on the front of trying to address that stuff to like yeah dude Apple is like definitely in terms of their privacy laws and how much they care about your privacy and how much you share they're definitely really good like my girlfriend's other boyfriend works as like on the security team at Apple so I hear about like you know just a lot of the stuff that they they do and yeah they definitely have their their mind in the in the place of the consumer for sure yeah more so than other tech giants I think like

Facebook and Google and especially Facebook who just don't give a fuck about your data they'll sell that shit to anyone yeah well they're they're reaping the whirlwind for that shit right now thinking about I think we talked about this last time like open love relationships and you said you're like too busy for that shit but you do practice it as well or yeah oh yeah yes yeah that yes we do do you I can't remember yeah like I was just saying my girlfriend has another partner who works at Apple and I'm yeah it's good I like it definitely I don't think I'll go back to Minography anytime I don't know if I'd want my wife to have a partner working at Apple that's a little too much it's like you know what's he what's he looking at get out of my shit what's what if he's dipping into your phone or something don't you worry about that or she I don't think it's possible man I think like they yeah I think security engineers that's the whole job is so that they can't do that yeah they can't do that I mean they're

trying to like they're on the team of fighting for for us so people can't do that to us okay okay but wait at night this is what this is what you call a white hat hacker so there's a bunch of different types of people who work in the security industry there's white hats there's gray hats and there's black hats and then on the white hat team you have red teamers and blue teamers so red teamers are what you call penetration testers and what their whole job is to do is to try and hack into systems try and find the vulnerabilities and when they find those vulnerabilities report them yeah and the teams fix them and then and then yeah I guess the blue teamers I suppose they're just working on sort of making systems for red teamers to try to hack into yeah and then that's like the whole white hat side of things but then the whole black hat side of things which is like what the whole I guess festival Defcon do you know about Defcon nope oh yeah oh yeah I

know that yes yes yeah happens in Vegas every year so that I think that's like mostly based around like gray hats and black hat hackers with and like black hat people are the people who are like sitting around on the fucking Russian websites and shit trying to like you know steal and sell credit card information yes but but okay so let's just imagine you are that one of the who's the head CEO of Google some Indian guy what's his name okay Riverside constantly is like taking up a whole screen real estate let's see CEO Google his name is Sundar Peshay okay now the CFO Ruth Porat and then another CEO Thomas Curian yeah I guess why would they have one CEO it's fucking Google yeah it's Google but you know you're late it's late at night you've had some wine you have access theoretically to I don't

know what percentage of phones or Google phones but a pretty huge swath of Google phones and images being kept on your servers just sitting there yeah but do you know how how data gets protected on these servers no so it gets run through it's called a salted hash so it's basically like this is at least your passwords I don't know about all your actual data but I know like I have such a basic understanding of this just from chatting with my girlfriend and her partner but I know at least with passwords your password goes into a system imagine like a filter right like an EQ or whatever the password goes into it and the password is already like should be a pretty long string of random numbers if you use a password manager do you use a password manager yes okay a very powerful one a very powerful one like the most powerful one so your password goes into this filter on their server and gets turned into a hash

and basically the hash is like it performs an algorithm on your password and just turns into like the longest randomest fucked up string of numbers so if the CEO or whoever has access to this database would go in there they would just see like a pretty long string of random numbers and for them to convert that back into the password is like quite a process sure yeah that's what we think I mean that's for sure how it works we but I know that that's like there's I'm sure of course but there's so much power in controlling our phones and our computers and having these servers that it exceeds the power of like like the CIA it exceeds the power of governments which is that even if it's been encrypted in a way that theoretically it can't be decrypted it's a huge assumption by the way that there isn't a method that no like in these like when the three CEOs get together or and talk it's a huge assumption that they're not like yeah but

there's the back door you know we let's let's see let's just see what Trump is saying in his text aren't you a little curious let's just see you know Trump got hacked twice right of course he did of course he did yeah his password the first time was MAGA 2020 and then his security team forced him to change it and then a year later he got hacked again and his password the second time he'd changed it back from like a complicated password that they made him create with a password manager or something and his password the second time was your fired are you fucking serious no I'm not kidding see that's frustrating because it isn't kind of frustrating to know any second you could have been in fucking Trump's Twitter just like with the most obvious password it's in it's infuriating he got hacked by this group of old German hackers called the Guild of the Grumpy's or something like that

I wish I could have been in the room when they fucking like got into his Twitter and realized that was his password I wish I could have just heard the cackling laughter oh sorry yeah the Guild of the Grumpy old hackers yeah that is so funny that they did that but look you know the to me I think like the with these like with the tech companies what's really an unspoken thing is that you know anytime the government's fucking with them anytime the governments are like we're gonna break you up we're gonna like come at you they're like okay all right hey what model phone do you have again yeah yeah totally that's a nice one fucking all the shit that you're using to do all your jobs on us just the crap that we invented it's great yeah I really love that oh do you want us to send you a new phone we'd be glad to but that you know what I mean because like it's like okay like yeah sure these are normal

companies and everything but they're also companies that have not just encrypted images from all of us at this point on there on their servers but they also as far as Google goes they're using quantum computers that are doing shit that guaranteed they haven't announced you know they're it's so like even if they have encrypted this shit it's I don't see it would would you be surprised to hear that you know Google's like computers that have hit quantum supremacy figured out how to decrypt the encryption of like or at least with some degree of being able to see what stuff is then using the same technology where if I point my phone now apparently whatever it'll tell me what it is just do insta scans of all those images cross-reference them with people who have any kind of power and it's like what everyone accused Jeffrey Epstein of doing times six trillion you know and then at that point like the tech

companies literally control everything in in the background and there's no way to stop it I don't think that's conspiratorial it just seems like that's naturally going to happen yeah I would be a little interested if that happened with Google they have like the most intense security team they called project zero and yeah I'm just looking at the Google the Wikipedia now basically says yeah project zero is a team of security analysts employed by Google tasks with finding zero day vulnerabilities which are vulnerabilities that are either unknown to those who should be interested in its mitigation or known and hasn't and a patch has not been developed so you're basically this this company which is like a sort of internal company within within Google just like the top tier hackers of the planet and their whole job is to find shit like this that's cool

and if that yeah they find shit like that within Google's thing their whole goal is to like not let anybody else know about this shit until it's patched yeah so if they found out that in inside of Google there was some corruption happening where people were sifting through the files of people using their stuff they would they would shut them they wouldn't let that happen there's some assumption of like a real moral ethical standard there that we had these yeah why had hackers are literally like like the real superheroes at the moment I would say working on the planet they're like literally the people who are trying to stop this shit from happening yeah right yeah that's cool I mean yeah it's it's it's cool it's just like that's good to hear it's good to hear it kind of like a swage is some of my paranoia regarding this stuff just because I mean like like for instance my girlfriend is one of these people

and it's like you know she went to MIT for physics she like dropped out of high school when she was 17 to go get a physics degree at MIT and then went to Stanford and started doing like a mathematics degree and she's just like one of the most intelligent people I've ever met and she uses her intelligence to be a white hat hacker to try and make sure regular civilians like dumb fucks like me don't get fucking hacked yeah that's it's an incredible use of her time yeah it's it's a yeah it's a it's a it's a beautiful it's a really beautiful thing and it's good to hear I mean I just can't just knowing maybe I'm maybe I'm like I just knowing human nature it's it's it's I don't know it's just good to hear because like I really like late at night Tim what's his name Tim Cook late at night Tim Cook he's just bored he's not like nefarious he's not malicious he's just kind of like what's I want to see what this general drink and drink and

some wine thinking of jacking in front of the fireplace and he's like you know what I just kind of I just kind of want to see what Biden's been emailing about you know I just kind of want to see that I'm just a little curious I know he's got an iPhone so it's good to hear that that isn't a possibility but I could I think it's not I mean I hope it's not it's a big assumption okay I want to keep you a little bit longer I'm no yeah of course I've got plenty of time and maybe maybe this is more if like I ever get to do an email with your partner or a podcast with your partner I think she might have an answer for this but we'll close on this what are your thoughts do you know anything about dead internet theory I do not okay great I'm sorry y'all I think I already talked about this in the podcast before but come on this is a perfect time to talk about it so go on go on Google is the Atlantic dot com the dead internet theory is wrong but feels

true wait maybe you know what it'd be certain I'll run you through it right now go go to go to Google and search for anything search for anything anything like whatever okay now how many you know how many results does it say I'm on brave search it doesn't say okay okay I use Google Google the search engine a lot of us are using it just a lot of people probably think that's the only search engine Google 235 million okay great 235 million results so scroll at the bottom go to like the last page you can possibly go to it you know it says like it displays like 10 pages yeah 14 I can just keep going go to the very I'm at I'm at 14 yeah keep going did it stop as far as yeah 14 pages this is definitely not show me if I can 200 yeah wait yeah now it's saying page 14 of about 139 results what the hell yeah yeah so that's dead internet theory which is that the most of these search engines there was they're saying there's this many

results but there isn't you can I mean look like think of like the most think of like cat there should be a trillion like things on cat yeah there's 4.15 billion yeah and then you have I go to the end here go to the end yeah really it's only ever showing me 14 pages of shit wait no here we go I can go to 18 on this one is at the end no I can go to 22 keep going 22 is the end yes page 22 of 217 results what the fuck welcome to the fucking rabbit hole of dead internet theory and all the implications surrounding it because it's like wait a minute again it's like I'm okay if Google wants to tell me there's you know 10,000 results for cats or whatever okay or fine but yeah but you're going to tell me there's a billion cat results but really there isn't it's so this is dead internet theory which is like and I'm bringing it up because we're talking about assumptions the assumption that all of us have to have to not feel crazy

being on our devices is that our data is being successfully encrypted and that people aren't seeing every fucking thing that we do or could if they wanted to that's the assumption dead internet theory there when we're searching a key a keyword the assumption is my god the internet is this massive sprawling almost infinite world of data when it's like no it actually it isn't and if it is the massive sprawling world of data is being completely censored by some algorithm you know I mean like Google whatever the search engine you're using is choosing via some technology to only show you this many pages thus filtering out cutting out all this other stuff that just lies in the you know in the void so that that's the that's where you get this kind of creepy Truman show feeling of like wait I wonder if they're like deep net or dark net results or something that is just not showing you straight through Google but it's like letting you know that they're there or something

it must be I mean that's what I've heard is the internet we see is like the the tip of the iceberg so yeah it must just be that it's like dark web shit that for whatever reason it doesn't want to let you look at and that's that that's an to me is like a real ethical problem is like I have something telling me there's this vast ocean of data out there but it's only letting me see a tiny chunk of it I don't even have the option of changing that you know there's no way to tell okay well just show me everything you can you can look at tour right and then you like go through the onion layers yes that's right you can use a tour browser and you can go on the dark web and it's a joy to do highly recommend it on worked on tour actually it's fucking cool and weird and shocking but you know it's to me but you see what's happening there is okay so now you're getting this kind of split in humanity which is and maybe that's just the way it's

supposed to be you have a kind of a group of people who just blindly go on the internet assuming it's a free open space when it's not at all it's a walled garden of curated data that's been curated by an AI at this point but you never know that it's like you're like a fucking you're like the equivalent of like a monkey in it in a data zoo you know what I mean running around your little like playground of like sad like swing sets or whatever never knowing oh no no there's like a whole lot more out there but they just don't think you want to see it or can see it that's all I'm saying dead internet theory the I think another part of dead internet theory is like because of that it's put a tourniquet around the internet that we used to know like you know the creative expression that used to appear in all the weird little websites everyone would make has been homogenized into subreddits or Facebook pages or Facebook groups like that

that all of like the stuff that was really artistic and unique has now just been essentially you know converted into everything's just a clone of itself you know that's so I don't know do with it what you will I would love to hear your partner's thoughts on it though what that is because I've never heard of this and I'm sure she has but yeah I mean I've got to assume that it's just deep web stuff that Google is like somehow caching or something do you know about the way back machine yes maybe it's yes I'm old because I mean a lot of you know websites and shit like that they just get pulled down like the server hosting just didn't get paid for or something like that and it's just deleted and still somehow cached in Google maybe or something like that but I can't imagine that it's like 2 billion results and then 1.99 billion of them had that happen to them that seems like a lot 1.99 billion just gone just gone and you know I've

tried it on a few different search engines duck duck go I've tried it on like I think yahoo and it does it's the same through all of them do it so you know it's not that I care I don't need to see the fifth 3 billion fucking cat yeah image like maybe this is just like a thing to yes save server stuff or something like that it's like no one's going past like page 4 so it's like who gives a shit there's no way to make sense of it again and like because I'm not trying to I love like God forgive me but I fucking love the tech companies like there are there the wizards of our time they're they're wizards they're doing magic and I love it it's incredible but there's a lot of power in deciding what cat videos you can see and what cat videos you can't see you know there's a lot you you like whether in whether it's an algorithm whether it's people whatever it may be it's the censorship of whatever you want to call it just messy data is

still going to shape culture I mean that culture is going to be a reflection of what data it has access to and so so that you know you are going to directly affect the world by what you don't let people see and so yeah I don't know I want this theory to get I mean I want to be wrong but I can't I've tried the same tricks with my own I've tried to work it out like well it's probably saving energy or something but then it's like okay it's still not showing you a shit ton of information like no matter what it's still not there's two broad possibilities I could come up with one it's just flat out lying because it makes it look cool to say I've got nine billion cat videos and it wants you to think it's powerful or two it's curating the information and both both of them are fucked up you know in different ways yeah that is fucking weird I don't really you know consider to sort about that I think I talked about simulation theory with you last time

and how I think like some good arguments for it is the speed of light limitations and the blank scale limitations yeah why why is going that small limitation and why is the speed of light like why is it the fastest we can go and I've since actually learnt some stuff about speed of light limitations in computing that I thought was kind of interesting like have you ever built a PC before no no I put out not to brag I put a graphics card in once and that's as far as I mean you like know how a motherboard yeah some people listening might not right so basically the way it works is there's a motherboard and that's kind of like the thing that takes all of the inputs for other pieces of gear like your processor and your GPU and your sound card and whatever but if you ever notice that the that the CPU is in the centre of the board yeah yeah so the reason why is because of speed of light limitations like it needs to it needs you know to get data from that

that CPU in the centre for like your graphics card and your sound card like everything and it's like the centre of the board is closest to all of them I thought that was fucking crazy that like our shit has gotten so fast that the limitation literally is the speed of light of like you know was it a new neurons or whatever like packets just like getting flown around that it has to be in the centre oh my god and that's why the the new Apple silicon is so fucking crazy because like the the chip I think and the RAM and everything is just all in like one sort of silicon chip so like the distance of travel oh my god that's crazy that's fucking crazy like so it's like oh my god that is so I guess because like the further away whatever the fucking bit is it's got to get to with all the processes it's running yeah even though it might not even that might not seem like a lot of time the more processes you're running the more that time would exponentially compound

and so wow so yours oh fuck so in those new chips you're saying it's like what used to be the motherboard has now been compressed into the chip wow that fucking crazy it's just like mental I just never realised that like the processes were happening that fast that that distance really mattered that much but fucking apparently does it's like apparently makes a giant difference and that's like I've never really thought about like why the processor centre like that I always thought it was maybe for cooling you know so like the the cooler or whatever could just sit like right on top in the center and like you get nice airflow around it and stuff like that but apparently that's not the reason you hear the the speed of light shit you're like okay yeah it's cool or whatever but it doesn't affect my fucking life but it's like yeah it does it defines everything so what so so what's the idea that's so the speed of light so the idea in simulation theory is like the speed of light is the maximum processing power of everything we're in or the idea is like why is that the maximum like why can't we go faster than the speed of light like there should be no reason like why would why does speed of like why does speed stop there why can't we go faster than that

right it doesn't make any sense it's the dead internet theory of the universe that's what you're saying it's like the wall the right and that and the same thing that I'm saying is like the only reason it would like the only reason that I can think of to make that make sense is it's like this if we're living in a simulation it's just there to to save processing power like it's the universe kind of saying to us like players never go faster than that they never need to go faster than that so like why would we waste processing power on like creating extra bounds out there that's why you got to watch out I mean that don't you get a little like okay so if we're going to do simulation theory you know assuming intelligent design because simulation theory does imply some intelligence made the fucking simulator I think where it gets really creepy is like okay so is it like if we do get close to getting faster than the speed of light are they going to like shut us down you know what I mean is that I mean is that where that you it just hits reset because it's like yeah that little bit of biological code is like you're about to break one of the fundamental rules of this fucking thing so just reset the mother fuckers like yeah this is just starting to eat up too much RAM in my background processes I'm just going to hit my task manager here and just shut that one down exactly just reset like yeah man they're they're doing it again every time we let them get to this point they always are going to just kind of reset do dinosaurs again they were slow as fuck like that shit was not like you know causing issues I could have my emails opening shit and like that was fine yeah yeah that you know I think that that's like a it's going to be a really interesting next decade friend for sure like and I think part of that is is maybe people are going to have to come to terms with like a new you know a new way of thinking of the universe that is probably at this point for most folks would maybe drive you completely insane to hear what it is

you know maybe we will let me know maybe that's what it'll be is it's just like yeah it's alien technology we're living in alien technology the whole thing it's the sun DNA we're just made up of alien technology and you can hack it a little bit and that's going to look like humans living to be 5,000 years old or something like that you know but I think regardless of what happens in the next like 10 to 20 years something that's probably going to be good for people is to like practice acceptance because I think shit is going to start going in directions that a you might not like and be you definitely can't control right I think yeah learning some sort of acceptance is probably on my cards of trying to deal with the next decade or two well we can follow Tim Leary's advice lift up your legs and float downstream that's all you can do have you ever fallen off a have you ever like on whitewater rafting no that shit looks fucking crazy it's crazy and like dangerous right yeah and but the advice they give you is if you do fall out of the raft don't try to stand up right that water is moving so fucking fast you're not going to stand up you're going to get slapped down and you might get your foot stuck in a rock and then if you get your foot stuck in a rock you're not coming back up you're dead meat so the advice is generally lean back try to lift your legs up and trust the river and then if you get to a slower part and you can climb out and you'll be okay but I think that's what you're talking about which is you know right if you right now if you try to resist what's happening right now come on

you're just going to find yourself constantly fucking doing your head in and just like oh this is bullshit and like just probably in the state of constant anger and being pissed off at the system all the time yeah yeah exactly and and it's it's just maybe that's like what the current like stupid data islands or whatever you want to call them are like all these little enclaves or repositories of politicized information these are just rocks that like you're trying to grab onto for a sense of like continuity or a feeling of coherence and what's happening in the world and it's like yeah you whatever you whatever it is that you're trying to plant your yourself in is like okay at least this is made this is where it makes sense it's it's just you're getting rolled by over I know I am anytime I spend too much time lost in you know some data island I don't care what the fuck it is anything that has a political intent to it anytime I find myself fixating on what you know this pundit or that pundit has to say it's not like I feel liberated I just get angry dude speaking of political stuff one thing I wanted to ask you about is how do you do you play shows in Israel or how do you feel about playing shows in Israel I will play shows in Israel okay you need you mean because of like the Palestinian issue what's going on with that like the oppression of the Palestinians I mean it's like are we gonna play like what happens if international people don't want to come and play in the United States anymore

I mean that's yeah this is kind of the argument right is like if you start to look into the politics enough of like you know the U.S. has done some fucked up shit like one time I was fucked up the Afghanistan war was like extremely fucked and you know I mean obviously like in China they've had a lot of bullshit go on there as well they haven't I haven't heard that before China's great yeah I mean I feel I feel like if you start looking into the politics of stuff you you'll never play showing most countries right yeah and I do think like if there's going to be like in general it's always dangerous to like make an entire group of people living in one place you know villainous it's like God Jesus Christ like you know the amount of control in general most individuals have when it comes especially to like waging war it's there's no control like we experience that in the United States over and over and over again whenever they start pumping us up for some bullshit war we protest we go nuts we go to the street we fucking go crazy and it doesn't do shit they still go to fucking war but you know you could vote this way or that way you could try this thing or that it still ends up being the same fucking thing where like you know it didn't work so I think like it's really important to not demonize like the individual who finds themselves in like a violent

superorganism you know what I mean because I think the argument is that like going over there to play would be supporting an economy like supporting the economy of the government who's like being this crazy oppressive thing yeah I got some offers for shows in Israel recently and I was kind of torn about whether or not to do it so I asked people on Twitter and I got 40% of people saying yeah go for it and the other 60% of people saying no don't do that shit well you know I think like listen activism is so fucking important and anything you decide to do that's from your heart it's the right thing but to me it's like dialogue is what's going to change stuff it's like getting in there and like having real conversations on the ground with people about what's happening instead of whatever the particular information that we're getting is one way or the other like the real change comes from like direct communication with people well yeah I mean I've played like five or six shows there at this point over the years like the first few shows I played there I had no idea about the conflict it's just not something I would learn about but yeah talking to the people there I mean the people I'm playing for they're electronic music fans like hippies basically yeah not the people who are oppressing Palestinians they're also people like you and I who look at governments as like these fucking menacing giant corporations that don't want to do everything they can to make money and basically be imperial systems that control all the land and shit like I mean they believe the same shit and they're like they're definitely just trying to enjoy electronic music

but yeah every time I play there like the last at least the last two times I've just copped like some serious flak from fans like lost a bunch of at least a few fans sucks you it's not like I think it's I just think it's like we can't just lump every American like you know like when I'm online I'll read a thread someone will be like I don't like Americans and it's like well there's a lot of us here and I mean like not all of us are like fuck yeah get back in Afghanistan blow blow them up man let's do it like a lot of us are just trying to like get like feed our fucking kids and we're confused as anyone else is and you know I was just having this wonderful conversation with some folks I met at EDC who I'm gonna have on the podcast their activists they live in Detroit and they're on they're on the ground man they're like helping community gardens appear where there's like these places I just found out about called food deserts which happens where like all you have got in a whole like 10 miles swath of Detroit is like a whole foods that the people living there can't fucking afford to eat at anyway so it's a food desert so like these people build community gardens and they so that people can have a fresh good food if they need it and like they're the ones at the fucking protests where if you watch like Fox news or whatever they're the ones are like look at the fucking dangerous antifa or whatever you know what I mean I mean I don't know if that's what they are but they're they go to the protests to film what's happening and because they're good anyway I don't want to ruin it for the package with them I just really but you don't hear about that side of things on the news and so people who who are thinking one way or another about this place or that they're just here getting information from like a very few sources where I guarantee there's people in

right now who are actively trying to create lasting peace there you know who are who are actively trying to like make things better and those people just get left out of the equation when and demonized you know so I don't know I just think it's it's easier to imagine some homogenous mass of violent people in China it's easier to think all those and that's how they get us ready for war isn't it that's how they get us pumped up for war they're like all those fucking Chinese motherfuckers you better yes and it's like are you kidding me you can't tell me that every single person in that region is some certain way any more than every single American is or whatever and the moment you like start thinking that I think that's when you accidentally become the thing that you are offended by right it's like how you generate patriotism and racism and stuff exactly exactly that's exactly right it's just you people do it with law enforcement people do I used to do with the fucking DEA I was talking to I was having a great conversation with Rick Doblin who's like one of the one of the people behind getting MDMA prescribed and and when I was talking to him I was just like these fucking feds DEA and he's like they're not all bad you think they're bad they're not you're just turning them all into one thing there's good people on the very side that you think are like the demonic monsters of the world in like the same thing we're just talking about I would the tech people and the security it's like not everyone who works in the in the back end of tech is like trying to look at your photos like there's a bunch of them who are trying to do that exact opposite thing exact exactly and that said that is a very complex perspective and the problem with that is now I can't get mad at an entire group of faceless people I can't put a monster mask on an entire group of people because they're not all bad they're actually good people they're trying to make the world better and to me that's the hope of the world is that that's like there's good people like it's the most cliche she's the thing to say they're everywhere there's good people who have managed to get into real positions of power who just currently at the moment don't have whatever they need to make the instantaneous change we all want but they're working at it

you know and so maybe you're not doing a show in Israel is it going to bring attention to a real fucking horrible problem and maybe inspire people to change may maybe I don't know I don't know but talking about it on this podcast and you know making Twitter posts about it to start right at least a lot of people who probably don't know about because I mean fuck I didn't know about this issue for a while you know it's probably people listen this podcast I've never heard about this problem before well man I'm you know some of my dearest friends are Israeli they live in Israel and they're wonderful fucking people and they don't want there to be violence and they there's there they don't want they don't want to get murdered they don't want their kids to get murdered and they don't want other people's kids to get murdered but they happen to be like born in a place that is going through a lot of complex shit so it's I can't like it's like really hard for me to demonize them or you know and but though I do like Jesus fucking Christ I there's people who listen to this podcast that live in Palestine who I've talked to online and it's like Jesus Christ you've got a fucking open air prison there you know what I mean that's just like and I it seems like the most hopeless of situations and they're dealing with the same shit because over there there's a factions of them that have completely given up any hope for anyone who's Palestinian is listening to this fucking hit me up I'd love to have a conversation because yeah that yeah there you go there you go because I think it's the conversation because what are they going to do I mean I think they're like what the fuck do you want us to do we're stuck we don't know like a lot of my my fucking friends were literally like

literally murdered by bombs I don't know what to do and you're telling me what don't be violent how can you tell me what to fucking do asshole who lives in a place where you can like drive around and I'll have to go through like seven checkpoints and you can get the fucking medicine that you need you okay what's your stupid fucking advice to like go to a music festival guess what not a lot of DJs are coming here you know what I mean so it's like I get it I'm I don't I get it but I you know and you end up just saying the most like seemingly try cliche things which is like I just want there to be peace I would like to see that in my lifetime there you know I would love to see that like to witness that actually happen would be incredible but is that going to happen by vilifying entire segments you know entire like countries is that going to happen using the exact methodology that people seem to be using to rationalize the very acts of violence that are making people want to boycott Israel you know what I mean because it's like by lumping all the Palestinians into one group of whatever the fuck they're trying to do it's like well so the answer to peace is to lump everyone living into Israel in that in another group right just like hate on a whole other groups yeah opposite thing of what you might want to be doing right yeah it's like trying to like make your water less salty by putting more salt in your water so but then you know I don't know I don't know man I wish I had a good fucking great answer to the thing I think that's a good answer I mean I think that's a pretty level head of wave looking at it all you know though yeah it's obviously a fucking horrid thing that's happening over there and yeah I guess it's not it's not the easiest thing to make decisions about especially like I don't know man it's funny like a lot of Israeli people hit me up about it and they'll be like hey man I saw you like made this post on Twitter or like I saw you talked about this thing on your podcast like man there's a lot of gray area and I'm like well cool explain it to me like you know just a lot of gray area a lot of gray it's like

right doesn't seem like a fucking very convincing argument well yeah I mean there's I guess there's a lot of fucking gray area and there is right and yeah it's just like I don't yeah I don't think I could ever understand the problem you know not having grown up there in either Palestine or Israel to its full extent but yeah I also have not had it explained to me in such a way where I'm like this is fine you know it's not fine it's not far this thing from fuck I mean we're looking at it we're looking at the problem I mean maybe it's something about the fact that it's not somehow it's just not diffused like you're forced to acknowledge it you're forced to see it you're forced to like deal with the fact that this is one of the ways that human beings have conversations right now human beings one of the ways we talk to each other is by blowing up other people's children and you know that is not a way to fucking communicate that is not a way to talk and it's whatever you know strip away all of the like everything else away and just look at that as it is and it's like it's something like it's like a cultural black hole you know it's something that is so profoundly like violent and impossible to wrap your head around that it's like and how do you fix it after like generations of people have been wounded or murdered how do you fix it you know like in Afghanistan as we're sitting here eating our fucking Chipotle or whatever there's someone right now with a broken heart who's been feeling that way for the last 15 years because one of his best friends got exploded by a United States drone at a wedding and he can't sleep anymore and you know what I mean so you can't fix that I can't fix that you can't fix that but guess what we paid for that fucking drone didn't we we paid taxes you paid for the drone some little tiny bit I don't know how small little pixel of the of the shrapnel that when exploding through you know any number of innocent people and any number of places where the United States was blowing people up we paid for that your music paid for it my podcast paid for it anyone who's paying taxes paid for it so our hands are all bloody it's just because of the massive size of the United States and the fucking horrific brilliance of these war campaigns they managed to dilute it they managed to somehow make it seem and it all I'm sorry I was gonna say and it also seems like like all of the extreme left on Twitter also primarily American right probably yeah I guess so yeah I don't know I don't know probably yeah

I would assume so I think like primarily most of my fan bases anyway so it seems like most of the pushback that I'm getting from from these people who have bloody hands but are American and therefore maybe aren't so hypocritical of themselves yeah well it's really hard to like you know it's like what do you do if you find yourself like if you're like a I don't know what do you do if you're like a cell in a in a tiger you know what I mean and like you you don't want to you don't want to be a predator but it's like you're literally like connected to it you're part of that what do you do and so but I think like one answer to that is like okay stop identifying with a tiger it's like you know that's what the tiger wants you to do the United States wants you to be a nationalist you know that's how the war machine runs is by people getting really fixated on their national identity it's like and so something about just allowing yourself a vacation from your national identity even for a few moments so it's like okay let's imagine that there's actually just peace workers as cheesy as a term as that may be that are boundary less and not even bound not even but temporarily bounded because they're basically the same people throughout history and so they are that's always the same person certainly globally there's peace workers I've met him had him on the podcast there's people who don't give a fuck about what your nationality is they are what they're going to try to help you if they can because that's their calling and that's what they do they don't care what part of town you come from they don't care if you have health insurance they don't care if you can help them they don't care if your feet stink they don't care if you're if you're like going to rob them after they try to help you they're just going to try to help you there are people like that all around the planet and they are not bad they're not nationalists they don't say I'm an American healer I'm the American I'm the Palestinian peace worker I'm the Israeli healer they're just people who are trying to help and so you know what I mean I think shifting identification to them if you can versus like whatever your particular national identity is is one one step in the right direction the problem is if you do that then you lose the ability to alienate tribalize and do all the things that allow you to have a kind of like leg that you can do your violent leg leg humping on in some kind of pathetic attempt to stop feeling bad you know something like that and but it's complex and it's like it's tricky and it'd be easy to spiritually bypass yourself into thinking you're doing that when really you're just kind of doing some kind of cowardly act when you need to be doing like real direct action you know what I mean but you don't have to do it alone that's the other thing is like find them they'll help you when you know like anytime I get in a conversation with a real deal

they're not shaming anybody it's like you know you meet someone who's in AA and because you want to sober up they're not like looking at you like you fucking pathetic drunk because they used to be one you know what I mean so you run into some of these people and it's the same situation where it's like they just want you to join to help they're not like they used to be fucking fucking consumptive violent fucks to you know these people I'm talking about like they're there they're out there they don't seem to my experience with them as they're not in the business of shaming there's no time you know they're just trying to help yeah I feel like generally people in AA are pretty nice yeah people I feel like if you've just gone through that road of battling with this fucking demon inside you that's just yeah just this really aggressive nag that you have that's just like do the thing do the thing do the thing like basically a friend of yours who's trying to convince you to do this like incredibly fucking gnarly thing all the time and you just have this kind of sort of weak voice in your head that instead of being like no I'm gonna set like a definite boundary with you to not do this thing you're instead like convince me convince me that it's a good idea anymore and I feel like people in AA and NAN shit who have like dealt with that who have been like trust me man like I've had that fucking thing inside me that's done that and I've also been that person who's been like I'm not gonna say like no for sure I'm not doing that thing but instead I'm gonna be like maybe it's a good idea like you can you sure it's a good idea like convince me that's a good idea like if they've dealt with that whole fucking gnarly thing and then they can see you're sort of on the early stages of dealing with that thing that generally got a fucking ton of empathy for you yes that's right yeah that's one of the see that's one of the qualities of I think the authentic you know peace worker whatever you want to call it is there's empathy and it's not just empathy for the desperate people who need their help it's empathy for anyone who finds themselves in the

in the in the human condition because that no matter what you've got to deal with the suffering of the world it's there even if you think you're not looking at it you can still feel it and it's like they they they just like you know Ramdas talks about it or it's like you go to a peace rally and you see people holding up peace signs going peace don't you want fucking peace peace you know what I mean it's like yeah we will make peace peace will come you fucking piece of shit and it's like you know what I mean and you know versus like the people who have whose karma is such that they really are just trying to help and they don't have they don't have they can't use they don't have time to get angry in that way because they they're they're like help they're like bringing people blankets and jackets and you know what I mean just trying to keep people from getting shot by the cops so it's like I don't know maybe this is naive of me but I think maybe just I didn't realize and those people are in Israel those people are in the United States those people have always been in the most miserable like dangerous aggressively violent places of the world and those people are the hope like those are the people who make the change those are the people these I gotta have these activists I met you know they were talking about how they were talking about watching cops take pamphlets watching cops take the pamphlets from the activists and putting them in their pocket that's the hope that's the hope that's the like real world hacking where you're getting the data packets over the boundary into the pocket of the people dressed like Darth Vader and maybe when they go home they open that shit up and they're like what the fuck I just pummeled somebody who's trying to make it so that folks who can't afford food can have food you know and so that to me is like the more nuanced approach rather than like just trying to isolate or alienate entire groups of people

being a cop would be fucking hard though Sam Harris put it a good way where he's like if you're a cop it's always a fight for the gun basically he's like one thing that people don't consider in those cop interactions is that there's always a gun at play there's like always a gun like right there on the table basically I mean it's obviously attached to your hip but it's like yeah imagine that if you're going into any sort of altercation with somebody you have a gun exposed on the outside of your hip it's like you always have to be concerned about that yeah no I mean it's fucked up beyond I mean a lot of countries they manage to take the guns away and things seem to be just fine or like you know some countries you're like you keep the gun in the car and only in the worst situation do you get the order like come in armed or something like that so I think that's like cops who have done a lot of BJJ according to I think it was some Henna Gracie or something it was on Sam Harris's podcast and he was saying like out of a couple hundred cops or something about like half of them had done BJJ and the other half had not and the amount of like injuries that came out of the altercations that the people who had done BJJ had had there was like basically none on the other side there was like fucking plenty yeah it's fucking training man it's clearly like they're just trying to save money on training these people or they're like you know the way they're hiring people is not based on like oh are you going to have like a nice nuanced approach to dealing with this shit oh you know Brazil you just I just want you to pull the I mean I saw a whole story on the guy who trains cops and just killing and like it's like they train you to you know you just kill like there's no time to think about it you just have to kill if someone's running at you with a knife you don't have time to be like stop you just shoot them in the in the chest and it's like so it's like you know

it's a whole different fucking podcast band you know but I love the I love the conversation that we just had and I love that like I can't wait if you hear from some I think people from Israel should reach out to you too I mean they absolutely have like I said most of the people who have reached out to me their opinion is like kind of the same thing that we were just talking about they're like hey man we're just like normal people we can't help the fact that we fucking were born here like that's just you know you don't choose your spawn conditions yeah and I agree with them the argument against doing it like I said is supporting the economy of the regime that's oppressing Palestinians right it's like and the same thing like you just said it's like if you pay taxes in America which I do I fucking pay way too much tax to America your hands are bloody too right and it's like people I think who are probably in our tax threshold by paying like quite probably quite a lot of tax right at that point it's like yeah I wish the government would stop spending so much on fucking militaries like they spend so much like trillions of dollars a year or something right on like just an incredible amount of money on military yeah and then you then you didn't like you know when we're leaving Afghanistan all the equipment out there that we all fucking paid for we're just abandoning it out there it's all just left out there we don't want to buy it anyway and everyone's like right you know right now like this fuck Joe Manchin is like making it so that like the government isn't going to pay a paternity leave and like you know what I mean it's like there was all this money

that we just poured into a thing that made zero cents they could have made it so like you know we take care of student loan debt and people like you know like huge cultural programs just getting people in a college if they want to go to fucking college getting the weight of people's debt off their shoulders getting people fucking medical care insulin all these things that could have happened you know it's really like it's so sad yeah I mean space travel you know like if we drop trillions of dollars a year into figuring out how to colonize other planets and you know maybe get the human race a little more longevity could also be a good idea it's not going to happen that it's just not coming from the top down bottom line I think the stuff has to come from us and it grows out of the cracks in society that usually appear there because of horror that's what's kind of weird about it is like wherever there is awful horror wherever there is like disequilibrium wherever there things get so desperate that people are forced to work together with each other that's where the cool shit starts appearing but it doesn't generally isn't coming from the top down it's coming from like people who like are like in the cracks that you'll never see that no one will ever hear about and those people are fucking everywhere yeah well they're the majority right and they're also the people who are experiencing like actual real life these people at the top are living on a whole different fucking planet with a whole different set of rules but I think I should also clarify that I'm also not extremely pro let's just ditch this planet and go somewhere else I think we should probably try and switch energy sources here and like try and preserve this planet

yeah I know I mean yeah you know I think like yeah I know it's a it's it's but the amount of money being put like if we just look we all know what it is it's like we have a massive very powerful military industrial complex that's sucking up all the fucking money that should be being used for social programs they've got lobbyists the lobbyists are making these social programs seem like you know the work of like diabolical communists when it's just like no no it's like you know there's like there's people who can't get people who don't have food in our cities all they've got is seven elevens that you know where they can eat fucking Twinkies or some shit every day and it's making them sick but they don't have fucking health care so now they can't pay for their health care anyway the you know it's like that's the problem that the you know it seems to me that's the problem but it's like go ahead and do space travel you know really what we need to do is figure out a way to duplicate the planet right we need to make one more earth that we move everyone to you think at some point meat will be made illegal and we'll look back at it kind of like smoking cigarettes or something and just be like what the hell why are we doing that shit they're going to grow it it's not going to be made illegal they already are you know growing foie gras do you know about that they already have synthetic foie gras I saw the salmon farms I think without like growing fake salmon and yeah exactly like I think it'll just be they're going to like the it will eventually be cheaper to grow the meat then it will be to harvest the meat from living creatures and then it'll naturally kind of Peter away I mean I think that's the problem with fossil fuels I just read an article that like the the amount the amount of energy it takes to make a solar panel or all the things that are generating energy is like getting less and less and less so it's like we just have to survive long enough to get to that point where pulling pulling oil out of the ground costs more than getting it out of the air getting energy out of the air and then you know it'll it'll naturally happen but yeah man I mean a lot of

it takes like enough people working on the solar panel shit and less people working on the oil pulling out of the ground shit I think a lot of this comes down to the capitalist reward for doing so though right like if there's more of a reward monetarily I think for making these solar panels and pulling power out of the air I think you'll find all of these fucking oil tycoons will switch over pretty quick that's all they're waiting for that's just all they give a fuck about they just want it to be a little cheaper and then once it is it's like yeah that game over for like the weird gross fucking black tarry rotten dinosaur shit we've been putting into our cars like it's you know yeah I think I mean I don't again like I am overly naive when it comes to my feelings about what the future holds for us even and I spent a lot of time doom scrolling and a lot of time looking at all the horrible shit and the horrible possibilities that are out there it's just you know it's spend I don't care if you spent the last seven months just on drudge report and fucking Tucker Carlson all you need to do is go and have one conversation with like these people I just met like actual people who are helping and your opinion will instantly change that that's all it takes is just one simple conversation where you're like oh wow and it's not just where you're like oh my god I can't believe I let myself get brainwashed by corporate propaganda that was trying to like produce the illusion of a consensus it's that you want to help them because the the the light inside of them is so bright and they're you know what I mean they're joy and they're what they're doing and they're just authenticity is so supremely like attractive that it makes all the phantoms that they've created for us to be afraid of disappear I mean that's their worst fucking nightmare is just people start talking to each other that's their worst nightmare is like the you know the these conversations are happening where we can't demonize each other anymore and by them I just mean people profiting off of fear and and you know vampires essentially they just want us to be all cocooned up and not having chats like this they love it the more we we don't talk

about pay quickly not at all go ahead and then we'll wrap it up I kept you too long I'm sorry I told you it was only going to be a couple hours that was Mr. Bill everybody all the links you need to find them are going to be a dugotrustle.com tremendous thank you to our wonderful sponsors and thank you for listening I'll see you next week until then Hare Krishna you you you you a good time starts with a great wardrobe next stop JC penny family get-togethers to fancy occasions wedding season two we do it all in style dresses dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne, Worthington, Stafford and Jay Farrar oh and thereabouts for kids super cute man extra affordable check out the latest in store and we're never short on options at jcp.com all dressed up everywhere to go JC penny eggs, sizzling sausage, crispy bacon and block out those hot buttery flaky croissants croissants don't really make a sound but if they did for breakfast that don't miss Wendy's is that breakfast choose wisely choose Wendy's $3 breakfast deal limited time only a participating us Wendy's select a request $3 breakfast deal to obtain discount not valid for all the card of combo orders