Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 477: Marcus & Amber Capone

Episode Date: November 27, 2021

Marcus & Amber Capone, founders of Veterans Exploring Treatment, join the DTFH! Visit VetSolutions.org to learn more about VETS and their fascinating work finding new treatments for PTSD. You can also find them on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: BetterHelp - Visit betterhelp.com/duncan to find a great counselor and get 10% off of your first month of counseling! Amazon Music - Visit amazon.com/Trussell and get your first 3 months of Amazon Music FREE! Disco Skincare - Use code DUNCAN at checkout for 30% Off your first order!

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with a veteran who served two tours of duty in Vietnam. It's really, to me, something that's thrilling that is happening right now in our society is that treatment options are opening up in the psychedelic arena for folks suffering from veterans suffering from PTSD. Marcus and Amber Capone are running a wonderful organization called Veterans Exploring Treatment Solutions, and they are helping vets get connected, specifically special forces right now, but it will probably expand. They're helping them get connected with some of the cutting-edge psychedelic therapies

that are currently being researched right now and showing promising results when it comes to the treatment of PTSD. This was a really fascinating conversation with two wonderful people who are really on the front lines of working with trauma. If you are interested in finding out more about them, all the links you need to find vets will be at DuncanTrussell.com. Now everybody, please welcome to the DTFH Marcus and Amber Capone. Marcus and Amber, welcome to the DTFH.

Thank you so much for joining me today. Hey Duncan, thank you so much for having us. Yeah, thanks Duncan. I just want to start off by letting you know this is this topic that we're going to be talking about. It means a lot to me because my dad had PTSD and I didn't, this is something I knew my whole life, but I didn't really understand what that meant. I don't know how the conversation, which I think is sadly pretty common in a lot of

families, military families, the conversation doesn't come up. What that means if your dad or your mom has been diagnosed with PTSD and then later one of my friends who is a psychedelic therapist, Cole Marta, at a party, I was just casually like, yeah, my dad had PTSD and he's like, do you know what that means? Do you know what that means? And I was like, not really. What does it mean? Then he explained my childhood to me.

He started telling me all this stuff that I thought was like a personal singular experience with my father, all the stuff he went through. And then later, because of the conversation with Cole, a chat with my, I remember my dad opened up a little bit about it. He never really completely opened up about it. What he told me was having, when he was diagnosed, they just gave him an Ativan prescription and they said, take these pills when you're feeling, when you're having a bad, bad day. Just take these pills.

And so to me, and also having to deal with the VA and when my father was passing with COPD and just realizing how just fucked and then after he passed, going through all the letters he'd written to the VA, trying to get any kind of fucking help at all and realizing that as he was like struggling with COPD, he was having to go through this like truly satanic bureaucracy that seems clearly designed to slow down the process of getting help for vets until they die is what it felt like. And I went to the VA, I'm sorry, I'm going to start chatting with you after this. I just want you to know a little of my backstory so you know how much this means to me.

Then when I went to the fucking VA, when my father was very close to death, I was lucky enough to recognize a Masonic symbol in the guy's wall and having a few Masonic friends, which I'm not. I just said like, so are you a traveling man, which is apparently, sorry, Mason, if I'm giving anything away, it's some kind of Masonic something. My dad was a Mason, the guy assumed I was, and so all of a sudden he's like, he went from being this bureaucratic alien to like, okay, listen, he's like, what you're doing here is pointless.

He's like, nothing's going, he followed me down the hall. He's like, it's better for you at this point to just start seeking help elsewhere if your dad's already in hospice care, because this is not, the VA is not going to, by the time anything happens, your father will probably already be in the next level of reality. He didn't say level of reality, but I think he said dead. I'm just trying to pretty it up for the podcast. So anyway, that's, that was, I'll never forget that horrible experience. And it helped me understand the humiliating reality that so many people who put their

ass on the line are right now going through just to get treatment for a disorder that happened because, because they put their ass on the line. So welcome. That's my rambling intro. Great to meet you. Let's talk a little bit about veterans exploring treatment solutions. I'm so excited to talk with you about it. Yeah, Duncan, thank you for just sharing that with us because you, man, I'm sorry.

You've experienced it firsthand. And so you understand exactly what, thank goodness, I think what Amber and I, you know, touched the surface. You know, we kind of dip our toe in the water there, but we don't, we don't stay too long for obvious reasons for everything that you just mentioned. You know, our experience wasn't near as bad as some of the other horror stories like yours and obviously some of our friends that we're funding now for treatment through vets, but it's terrible.

Some of the stuff you hear, it's, it's great. I walked into the, the VA and again, this is not a VA bashing scene because I think at the end of the day, and I always say this, when you come down to the individual there, there's people that volunteer to the VA, you know, I know individuals that work at Mount Sinai in Manhattan, one of the best hospitals in the world. They volunteer at the Bronx VA. They're that good. You know what I mean?

Yeah. They do it because they want to help. They care. But like you said, the overall system, all the red tape is just horrible. But I think when you get down to the individual provider, they're like, Hey, we want to help you. We just either don't know what to do or our hands are tied because they tell us that we can't do this, you know, or, you know, it's a legal reason and they're covering their

ass. You know, we're recently about to know. Funny enough, my best friend growing up went with her husband to the VA. The VA has had him on opioids for over 17 years for an injury that he sustained like in the early 2000s and he wants to come off of them. And there's really no program for that at the VA. And so they're talking to the doctor and the doctor says, Hey, there's an organization out there called Vets and they're doing great work.

And I thought, Damn, like, wow, to for a VA provider to reference our organization, let alone, you know, basically refer, and it was just so ironic that she, this is the best friend from them when they were like, wow, we didn't even know this. They didn't come to us. We could walk in middle school. You could walk in middle school. Um, you know, husband's a Marine. They've literally kept them on opioids for 17 years and all he's wanted to do is come

off them because yes, it does hide the pain, but it's like hiding his whole life. Like he's right, you know, kind of at that numb level of, Oh, this is what it must be like to live. Right. Yeah. I mean, yeah, you know, I, we didn't even talk about what Vets is. So which by the way, the story, what you just said is astounding and it really does underline Marcus what you're saying, which is the individuals at the VA are encumbered by a very slow moving,

very antiquated system that, that are still using techniques that are based on like outdated or research because the thing moves so slowly. So yes, I just want to affirm, yeah, I recognize that it's not like everyone working at the VA is some kind of robotic, you know, mantis creature, but and I, I imagine that they're feeling the, they, they also are probably staying up at night, just recognizing their inability to, to help as much as they would like to. Thank you. Upstart for supporting this episode of the DTFH when you look at your credit card statements,

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These loan amounts will be determined based on your credit income and certain other information provided in your loan application. It's upstart.com slash Duncan. Let's talk about what Vets is and how it got started because it's a really cool story. Thanks. Marguerite, you want to touch on your history and all go into Vets? Sure. I spent 13 years on active duty.

I was a SEAL, a Navy SEAL, and I loved every minute of it. I guess around the 10-year mark or maybe slightly sooner, I was really starting to struggle internally and I was high-functioning, I was able to perform and work, but on the background, my family was falling apart, I was drinking heavily. You could see it over the years when I look back, the amount of alcohol that we started to consume, which we thought was normal but really is not normal for most people. When you say weed, do you mean you and Amber? No, no.

My teammates and I. Oh, okay. Okay, gotcha. All right. Wait, what did you get to and consumption? I think drinking half a bottle of Maker's Mark bourbon was easy and fun and it was numbing and you put you in another place where you didn't have to think about anything except whatever you're doing at the time.

I was just struggling and so I took a break, became an instructor and I thought things would get better because I wasn't deploying and it really almost just got worse. I think there was a host of reasons that we can go over here. You can call it contact sports from when I was seven years old through college and then through the military as a quote unquote an explosives expert, which they call it a breacher in our line of work. There's new research coming out about subconcussive blows meaning you don't have to be that guy that got his head knocked on the 50 yard line and he got knocked out for two minutes but

maybe that guy who played football for 20 years of just constant banging of the head. It's probably not a good thing and it's causing a lot of internal issues with the brain and with mental health and so we don't know if it's partly impact or let's hear the word I'm looking for Amber. It's a really, really nasty conglomeration of things. It's hard to diagnose really what it is. So yes, it is depression 100 percent. There's days where you can't get out of bed and isolate and you don't want to answer your

phone. Then the massive anxiety that comes along with that and so you have all these things and I guess all that falls under post-traumatic stress, which is trauma, but I kind of look at what is trauma and I don't know if it's particularly trauma per se or something that I perceive where I go, man, I can't believe I just witnessed that on the battlefield and it's going to affect me now for the rest of my life. Wait, wait, I'm just to clarify. You are a breacher.

You are blowing, you're blowing shit up professionally and sometimes you're doing that in like war situations. Right. Trump, I'd say that's Trump. I mean, are you good? Yeah, that's fine. I have, listen, I have trauma just from like, I have trauma. I have my own weird PTSD that I'm getting treatment for quite successfully.

I have biggest exposure I've been around is like 4th of July, man. Yeah. So, you know what I mean? So it's like people are like us are just getting it from like the first five years of life, you know, with like a turbulent home situation. What I struggle with is I really enjoyed that, though, you know what I mean? Like I enjoyed that the larger the explosive that I could use safely and as close as I can be to it, which is the opposite of what you're supposed to do,

right? That we have an actual like distance that we're supposed to be away. So we don't take this impact. You wanted to feel the way I literally feel every I wanted to feel my teeth right on me like, yes, also it was like coming down to crack back on a middle linebacker, you know what I'm like? It was so it's so much fun to do that. He's not normal, Duncan.

He's not normal. You know, I mean, wait, let me just say, I don't think that's an abnormal thing. I mean, there is something I look, you know what? It's so funny. I didn't even know. Look at my hat. Nukes. I didn't I would I watch nuclear explosion videos as much as anybody else does.

Like I can understand that there must be something like like wild about being around that level of energy being released into the world. You know, but but to get back to trauma, one thing I like about it, not trauma and in particular, but the reality of it is it doesn't care what you think. It doesn't care your explanation for it. It doesn't it's because it's we're talking about an actual neurological issue. Like we're talking about something short involving short term and long term memory, at least from what my therapist has told me.

And you can come up with as many explanations for it as you like. But the reality is something is going on when people have trauma that is has a legitimate neurological aspect to it that is deeper than just some. I don't know how you would put it like a pat, like a, you know, something that might be a little more ephemeral when it comes to other reasons to go to a psychiatrist or a psychologist, you know. So who knows why? Who knows why?

And I do. And I think that's an important it's important for people because I think a lot of people put off getting care because they think to themselves. But what happened to me? Yeah, are my symptoms PTSD? Yeah, does it seem to be some hellish satanic bouquet of depression, anxiety, anger disorders, not remembering shit? Yeah, but what happened to me?

You know, my family was basically OK or I've had it, you know what I mean? And so they don't even go in to get it checked out. So who knows if you if if you're diagnosed with PTSD, you've got PTSD. So go ahead. Well, I mean, my last part, Duncan, is like, I'm still, you know, I still struggle with a little bit. And I mean, I'm flying compared to where I was four years ago. But that's great.

I I still struggle with that. You know, there's so many more guys out there that I worked with and guys in the military that. You know, may have been around more of done more or had more explosions. And, you know, they deserve these. They deserve to be taken care of. And that's why we're here, you know? And so that's why sometimes I struggle with it going, I don't have PTSD.

I'm just dealing with some brain stuff and some depression and anxiety. And you can call it whatever you want. But it's a host of things that, you know, we're dealing with. And I was on the VA hamster wheel, just like we talked about when I, you know, when I separated in the military in 2013. And again, I thought, OK, well, maybe it would be better than what we just went through the last couple of years, and it just got worse. You know, and I was working in banking and, you know, was doing well.

And that didn't matter. You could have paid me a million dollars a year. It didn't fucking matter at all. You know, it had nothing to do with how I was living my life. And how I was being my family. And so, you know, we found, quote, unquote, healing through psychedelic medicine. And we had to find it in places where they were legal and unregulated. And unfortunately, that's not the US yet. Right.

And so, you know, my radical change in life from my, you know, basically 48 hour experience of two really powerful, what I think are the two most powerful medicines on the planet, Ibogaine and 5MEODMT. It saved my life. It changed my life. It is obviously put us on a path to what we're doing now. I'll let Amber now step in kind of how vets was formed. But this is how vets was formed. I mean, literally overnight, I just turned to her and said,

I can't believe more people don't know about this. That was my first shock. Like, I literally couldn't believe there weren't thousands of individuals before me. And the second was we have to share and spread and spread like the world needs to know about this. I mean, like those are literally the conversation we had. A big thank you to feels for supporting this episode of the DTFH feels is a glorious CBD nectar that has been given to us by God in the disguise of feels. CBD isn't about what you feel. It's about what you don't feel stress, anxiety, pain.

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Start feeling better with feels. Become a member today by going to feels dot com slash family hour. And you'll get 50% off your first order with free shipping. That's F E A L S dot com slash family hour to become a member and get 50% automatically taken off your first order of free shipping feels dot com slash family hour. Amber, how what was the when I want to know when you all had the epiphany that you that you were going to like seek alternate medicine and go outside the VA system? Well, let me also touch on a couple of things that Marcus mentioned.

So by the time he got out and, you know, unfortunately, he's not unique. This is very commonplace. You've spent you spend all children of the Lord. That's true. Um, you've spent, you know, a decade on average away from your spouse, whether it's training or ward appointments. And then, you know, I'm really particularly intrigued by what makes a special operator capable, what sets them apart from, you know, someone else who tried to get through

Bud's training, sale training and couldn't make it. I personally think that there's a high, high significance of childhood trauma there. So when you add childhood trauma or trauma, head trauma, transition trauma, you suddenly are out outside of your community, you've lost your purpose, you've lost your passion and you are under this with a bunch of people who you don't even know anymore. And there's so much resentment. It's just a very complicated knot to start to untie. And then, and then, you know, you know, you need help that you're from a community

that's that does that shuns vulnerability and does ask for help and has this high, high, high tolerance for suffering. And so what you're capable of living through, you know, normal people. If there's such a thing would be like, what the fuck, right? You know, it's you start living a life that, you know, one degree over a course of several years, you end up in this completely like screwed up way of being and you've got to really climb your way out of that. And to make matters worse, you start asking for help, which goes against your community

standards, you go to military medicine, you go to the VA and all they do is put you on pharmaceuticals and has a whole host of other problems, whether it's increased thoughts of suicide or, you know, sexual dysfunction or being a zombie, you know, there's all of these things you're dealing with another set of issues. At the time we got to like our breaking point. I thought that Marcus, I thought every year should be getting better and it was getting worse. I thought that this was within Marcus's control and he should just get his shit together. I was so jaded and just done that I came at him with

aggression, guilt, shame, condemnation, you know, just all of these threats, you know, that he could somehow just bear down and be better. And I really was taken aback whenever the first brain autopsy was released in the SEAL community that showed a pattern of blast injury. And another term was introduced CTE, chronic traumatic encephalopathy. And for the first time ever, I realized that this might not be within his control. It might be a physiological condition on top of, of course, the trauma, the, you know, childhood and war trauma.

But maybe this is a brain thing as well, that he didn't have control over. So then we started kind of going outside of the VA, the prescription model and getting into more like innovative things, alternative things like hyperbaric oxygen and TMS brain stimulation. And, you know, that was not helping. And so we're helping a little, but not like this BAM life changing reset that we needed. So I'd actually decided to leave Marcus. I had decided that because I felt like even though I'm not a quitter and I'm a

fighter and, you know, I can keep going, the level of suffering that I was kind of by default, subjecting my children, our children to was not fair to them. And I just thought I've got to choose. And I knew that by choosing, I would probably mean Marcus wouldn't be around too much longer. And I would have to live with that guilt. And I would have to, you know, shepherd my children through the rest of their lives without a father. And I just couldn't come to terms with it.

I just did not want to stop fighting. I never wanted to, but I felt like I had to. So one friend of ours had gone outside of the U.S. first psychedelic treatment for Ibogaine, and he was just insistent that this could help Marcus. And it took about a year of convincing him, but he finally did agree to go. And, yeah, it totally changed his life. And there's been no looking back since.

Wow. And I, you know, I think you just described what is sadly a very common experience in America right now, which is that the partners of people who are experiencing these issues might that might not have the might not even know what PTSD means or traumatic brain injury or any of this stuff. And not might not have the good fortune of someone presenting another possibility. And so then what is happening is a lot of vets are being, you know, or suddenly find themselves single and on top of it, they're going through all this stuff.

But now it's like, now add to that. You're separated from your family and your kids, you know, and the guilt that their partners are feeling. Thank you for me to honest about this, because, you know, I sometimes wonder what would have happened if my dad had had access to these treatments or if my mom had gotten some education about like, what was, why, why, why is he acting like this? What is it?

Cause he's like, you know, something like he's a bad person. No, it's because he is dealing with some crazy shit that back then, you know, they didn't know what it was. They didn't know what it was. And also a symptom of PTSD is you don't want to talk about it. That's the, and depression too. You know what I'm saying? You know, Marcus, like when you're, when you're getting fucking depressed,

that's where, from whenever that, when I start getting hit with it, that's the scariest part is when you slide past the, maybe I should say something about this and now you're going more into the place of like, I'm just not going to tell anybody about this. Then the suicidal ideation start kicking in and then you're just sitting there was like, why the fuck is my brain casually spitting out? Like, why don't we just, I don't know, hang ourselves. What does that sound good?

You want to do that today and you're like, what the fuck? And then that's making you feel more freaked out. And then you want to stay quiet. And then if your partner isn't compassionate or doesn't understand what's going on, then they will do, come on, get out of the fuck out of bed. What's wrong with you? Wake up. Let's go.

That is not going to help. It just compresses it. So my God, thanks for being so honest about that because people need, I think a lot of people maybe don't even understand what's going on with their partner, and maybe that helps what you're putting out there helps. So you then make the very courageous on paper to some crazy decision to leave the fucking country and go and take two of the most potent and terrifying psychedelics on the planet.

Yeah. Let me talk about that. Well, why wouldn't you do anything else, Duncan? Like, I mean, if you said, hey, like, you know, easy average and, and like as hard as you can, like, why wouldn't you just go as hard as you can? You just want to fix the problem. Why wouldn't I go? I'm not the person who enjoys standing next to fucking shockwaves, friend,

but I can understand why someone who did would enjoy these substances. My only, I've never done it again. I've heard very scary things about it. I have taken five MEO DMT, not the best evening of my life, friend, not the best evening of my life, but that's for a different podcast. So tell me about, tell me, like, what was the center like? Or you must have been a little like, must have been a slightly worried that something could go wrong.

I mean, this is like, this is not stuff that's covered by health insurance. I can tell you that when I dropped him off at the airport, I was just like, all right, this is it. This is it. And I was so exhausted and I just, I had no idea that we would be getting right after it on the back end of the treatment with, you know, helping our friends and grassroots informing vets, but I was exhausted. And I was instantly energized when I saw him because it felt like, you know,

it felt like all the last 15 years were just suddenly erased. But Marcus, you can speak to the actual experience. Yeah, Duncan. I mean, for me, it took a year to, it took a year convincing and research and understanding that these were medicines, these are not recreational drugs. And so that made me feel comfortable. And then the more research I did, the more I realized like, wow, these things are really powerful in terms of healing.

They mean that the healing rate for Ibogaine, especially, especially for addiction is nothing even comes nearly close to what it's capable of. And you're going to see in the next five to 10 years, this radical shift in, you know, Betty Ford and all these, you know, addiction centers that are, I don't know what their, their quote unquote healing rates are, but they're, they don't even come close to it. And so once you just read a little bit of research, it makes complete sense. You, you know, for me, I just, I didn't care.

I tried everything else that quote unquote was supposed to work. It didn't work. Right. So now what? What are you supposed to do? Right. You know, these retreat centers, there's, there's many of them. Some are run by shady characters.

Some are run by legitimate medical professionals. I've been doing this over 20 years. And that's what this was, you know, and it was a, you know, a beautiful house and, you know, medical staff and you're hooked up to a heart rate monitors and, you know, you do a ton of, you know, pre prep work with a licensed therapist. And so, you know, in that regard, there's no worry there. You feel like you're comfortable, you're comfortable.

And the heart monitors, Marcus, it's, it's because specifically with Ibogaine, right there, it can be very dangerous. Right. You can go into cardiac arrest. Yeah. So I want to, I do want to stop you there in terms of it's not as scary as I think the media has put out. There have been deaths on Ibogaine, not nearly as close as many deaths as,

as, as, as, as opioids or, you know, other things that have touched. So Benzos, all of it. And so as long as an individual is screened, just like any other medical procedure, quote unquote procedure or whatever else they're taking, it's about what we were told by the world's leading emergency medical professional that deals with Ibogaine, that it's about as easy as a colonoscopy. Well, with proper screening, it's as safe as getting a colonoscopy, but of course you've got to screen out like many things.

Um, it's not that it's going to put you, I think into sudden cardiac arrest. And I don't think we're like qualified enough to really speak about that, but it's that it can cause fatal arrhythmias. That yes. Yeah, right. Arrythmia. I'm sorry. Yeah.

That was the word I was looking for. Yes. Arrythmia. Yeah. And if there's not a, you know, you can really screen out, um, the majority of any potential cardiac events, uh, if you do a proper prescreen, but then on the back end, if there is any sort of an adverse event with a proper medical staff, like ACLS certified minimum of four, I believe, um, trained providers on

site that can be reversed, but what, you know, what, what gets, I think what has gotten Ibogaine providers in trouble in the past is not doing the proper screening and then having an adverse event and not being able to act immediately. I'm not having medical staff there. And so, you know, I went, had all the above, right? And so heart rate monitor, did screening, did EKG, um, stress test, urinalysis, tight traded off of, uh, any SSRIs or I was on, um, you know, all, all the above was done.

And so I found, you know, extremely comfortable. And in my license, my license therapist, my therapist slept at the foot of bed the whole night and was with me through my experience. So, you know, I would wake up, um, sometimes, you know, horrified, right? Because Ibogaine, like you've heard, it is a miserable experience. Like you're, you're going deep in dark. For some, for some, for some, they've reported like a blissful, beautiful experience.

Marcus actually had, he's done Ibogaine now three times in his third experience was actually, he described as blissful. Yeah. I mean, it was to the point of I said, wow, I can do this like once a year for a reset, you know, I think this is good for a brain reset. Just like, you know, many are doing now with ayahuasca and some other, you know, psychedelic medicines and the right environment. Um, it's, what is the experience like, Marcus?

Uh, how would you describe it? Yeah, it's, um, it is a Ibogaine in particular is, I guess your peak is probably six to eight hours and it's in a, you're, it's an awakened dream state. So you're not asleep. Um, you have eye shades on, you have, uh, headphones on, you're, you're, you're listening to music and you're basically, you're like, you're revisiting, um, your life and you're watching your life play out in front of you. Like you're at a, at a movie.

And so you're watching like all these things, some in order, some all over the place, you know, uh, some people remember exactly, uh, the experience they had and some are being taken through the experience with a partner. Like everybody's experience is different. Mine was a little bit all over the place, but you do go back and revisit like past traumas of your life. So, you know, if you were beaten as a kid, if you were sexually harassed, you know, if you were in a car wreck and saw people die, if you were on the battlefield

and watched your friend die, you know, like all those things you're revisiting and you may be, you may be revisiting him in like, in weird ways, sort of like when you're dreaming, like literally like when you're doing, you know, when you wake up and go, wow, that was odd. Like I don't get how I was able to like stand there one second and then I flew up to the second level of the, right. So that's kind of what I began as like. Um, and the idea is that it's really unlocking your subconscious and you're

dealing with these things right then and there. Sort of like what you would try to deal with when you're going through talk therapy, but you know, you're doing it in a, in a night. Do you, when you, is it like a dream that when you come out of it, you kind of start forgetting some of the things that you remembered? You do. Uh, some people write right away to try to remember everything because some, I mean, some of these things are super important.

Uh, of course, cause you're, you're again, cause you want to integrate that back into your life to fix whatever you were, you were going through. And so if you were an addict, um, yes, it is hitting the, the receptors that enable you to not want those, um, whatever you were addicted to alcohol or opioids or whatever, but also it's reaching back and trying to figure out why you're addicted to those things. And so, you know, on one hand it's, it's, it's, it's hitting receptors that, you know, that, that the drug or whatever it is, is attached to and wants a

piece of, for that addiction. So it's getting rid of that. It's blocking that. On the other side, it's reaching back into your subconscious and, and dealing with issues that may have been affecting you to cause that addiction. So it's like, it's got a few different things that Ibogaine is doing. Plus it's also healing the brain. So there's a huge physiological component to Ibogaine.

Um, right now we're doing a study with Stanford specifically. I got one of those dogs. That sounds like my poodle in your look is the, this is like our karma now. You have to hear that all the time. So, so you're doing a study with Stanford to look into the physiological healing mechanism of Ibogaine. Yes. Yeah.

So Ibogaine is unique in its ability to create some sort of a neuro regeneration in the brain. Um, there's not a lot of, of, uh, information that exists about this, but if you Google, like, you know, Ibogaine and Parkinson's, there was a bit. Um, that was my biggest takeaway from Marcus's treatment. I knew that he had dealt with some trauma. I knew that he, um, you know, something happened that didn't, he did not want to drink alcohol.

He didn't have a drink for nine months and alcohol no longer has like a hold on him. Um, but the really, really cool thing for me was the return of his neurological functioning. I definitely thought that trauma existed and I don't want to downplay PTSD at all because it's, it's, you know, definitely on board and definitely a serious thing that so many veterans are dealing with. Um, what I had seen that was more concerning was it, was a decline in his

neuro neuro cognitive functioning. Right. And that was not returned. So I said, and I was trying to get anyone to listen to me. Um, and I was met with, oh no, if you've ever suffered a TBI, you're not even a candidate for psychedelics, unfortunately. And I'm like, no, no, no, my husband's had like 30 years almost of repeated head trauma and he's doing great.

And so finally the director of the Stanford brain labs listened and, um, he was like totally on board with finding out what is it about IBM that creates this. I want to thank Bluetooth, not just for supporting this episode of the DTFH, but for supporting my very powerful, glorious erections, Bluetooth. It's a unique online service that delivers the same active ingredients as Viagra and Cialis, but in chewable tablets and at a fraction of the cost, it's simple. You just sign up at Bluetooth.com, consult with one of their licensed medical providers.

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Visit Bluetooth.com for more details and important safety information. And we thank Bluetooth for sponsoring the podcast. You are amazing. You are like knocking on doors at Stanford to try to get Marcus into you. Well, we had a connection. I mean, this whole thing has kind of been just blessed and beautiful from the beginning in terms of like connections and connection to this person, that person. It's been a good program.

But yeah, I mean, I contacted everyone from like higher ups in Naval Special Warfare to Dr. Bennett Amalu, who's the pathologist who discovered CTE in the brain from Stanford. I mean, anyone first, because I was so desperate for help and answers. And then secondarily, because I felt like, oh, look, we just stumbled upon this and found them. I know that, you know, like I know that veterans are suffering with PTSD and there's not a lot of hope for that because there's not really great treatments for

that. So this could help that. And then what's really unfortunate is that so many veterans and veterans and service members are being almost misdiagnosed as having solely PTSD when they have a physiological condition. Fuck, right. Oh my God, that would be so easy to do, too. Wouldn't it be so easy to just be like, because the symptoms are similar and there probably is some PTSD, so it would be easy to just overlook the brain

trauma aspect, prescribe a ton of medications that could potentially be causing even more symptoms and problems. So, you know, no amount of pharmaceuticals or talk therapy is going to mitigate the degenerative brain condition. Right. Holy shit. This is what this is really cutting edge. Wow.

I'm just thinking back. It's like, of course, like anyone who has been on the battlefield, there's a pretty high probability that you're going to have been around some kind of explosion, you know? I mean, like when my dad was, you know, you know how it is when someone is struggling with this, usually they won't even talk about it. And when they do, it's usually going to be when they're blasted, you know? And the times my dad would talk about it, from what I could piece together,

there was some kind of like explosion and, but you know what I mean? But I never, to this day, I will never know exactly what happened. But wow, that is really interesting and really, really just, I'm sorry, because it kind of blew my mind. No, and don't get me wrong, you're having it over and over and over and over again, right? So you take a civilian shooter that, you know, hunts or whatever. I don't know how many times I shoot a gun in a year, but take a special

operations veteran and again, like we've been we've been hit a few times saying, hey, why is this just special operations? And it's not, we had to start somewhere. However, the the rate of of suicides and PTSD are twice as much in the special operations community. It's because we're doing this on a regular basis. Like I kept my weapons and my ammo in my locker and I can go shoot literally every day, which we did every single day for two hours a day.

You know, when we're home and not all the time, but on a regular basis, we were able to do that. You know, and then as a, you know, as a breacher, you would you would run trips. You would be the safety officer in charge of the others that were. Oh, so you're doing this stuff all the time. Oh, and then, by the way, that's all training. Then you go overseas for combat and you're going out every other night, maybe every, every other night, maybe every night for three months,

six months, some longer, and you're doing the same thing. And like I was telling you, in training, we're safe. Like it says we're supposed to be 13 feet away. Like we're like 15 feet away in combat. We might be five as long as I'm not like looking at that explosive and make sure it's not smacking me in the face. You know, I'm okay. So, you know, we can you ever not go out?

Like what happens if one night you're like, you know, guys, I'm just going to like, is it cool if I stay here while y'all go out? Or do you have to go out? You want to go out? That's why the PTSD diagnosis for me never seemed to be entirely fitting because he loved his job. He would he loved to deploy. He loved to train.

There's not one time I remember him saying this feels like work. Or I don't want to go. And but I was seeing this decline in him and there's so many core co-morbidities between PTSD and TBI, but when you see in combat, you're just rubber stamped. Oh, you have PTSD. And, you know, like, for example, I have a great uncle who was in World War Two. And the way his life went upon his return makes me wonder, did he have a degenerative brain condition caused by his, you know, service?

He came, he came back. He was successful for a short period of time, and then he lost everything. His family, his finances, he developed Parkinson's disease and died in his 80s. Like that to me is degeneration over decades that could be tied back to his service. I talked to another woman recently who's she doesn't live in the United States, but her ex-husband is micro dosing Ibogaine for Parkinson's. And she said to me, well, he was never a veteran. He wasn't around explosions, but he was a boxer.

And it's like, yes, the, you know, any sort of contact sport could set the stage for this sort of a degeneration in the brain over time. Right. Yeah. So, so essentially what's happening right now is you are doing a kind of experiment or you're gathering data right now that kid could that from it, you could potentially come up with treatment plans for people across a very wide spectrum of experience, not just combat. I imagine the VA is a is the VA a little resistant to this kind of research

because if suddenly a real connection emerges between any kind of concussion, even in training and traumatic brain injury, then they're not going to be able to deny treatment. And, you know, it seems like that's something that they. It is hard to do the VA likes to have stuff presented to them kind of like on a silver platter wrapped in a bow. Here it is ready to go. And so it's very difficult.

Sometimes you have to have everything ready. And these these things are so novel and they're new. And we need their help to help to do research and we need funding from them. And there's there's inroads and we're we're we're working in those inroads, not directly with Ibogaine. We're working with ketamine and some other things. So they're receptive, but it will take a long time, as you know. The frustrating thing is like, well, we just had a meeting with Rick

Doblin at the San Diego VA for MDMA, assisted psychotherapy for couples. This is huge. This would be amazing. The team was so on board, but, you know, they've got to take it to their higher ups and their higher I go to their higher ups. And so, you know, by the time you get to the person who can actually make the decision, there's so much CYA going on that even though the team on the ground that would be doing the work is so excited, it might be too risky by the

time the decision makers get a hold of it. And then they say, yes, that's San Diego VA. That's one city in one state across America. Like it's really frustrating not to have some more, you know, some sort of cohesiveness amongst the VA's. We were part of a small team that helped get a law passed in Texas. First of its kind legislation. It's a HB 1802, which was, it became law over the summer.

And what it does is a points of committee from the Health and Human Services Commission to oversee a study between the largest research institution in the state, Baylor College of Medicine and the Houston VA. And the study participants will all be given psilocybin. And then they'll report back to the body of legislators as though, you know, what, what do you want to do with these findings? They're going to be great. We know they're going to be great, but, you know, it's one VA.

Why can't we get that sort of a study going on across America, you know, in one VA per state or in the top five VA's and then compile all that data because it just gets lost. Right. So it's one, one team, one place doing the, you know, blazing the trail. It's so frustrating. I, you know, not everyone has the kind of motivation that you have. I, like, I think most people, when they find themselves encountering PTSD or

any kind of neurocognitive, you know, whatever it may be, even if it's not related to, to battle, like we just feel lost. This is like suddenly someone that you love is acting really fucking weird. And you don't know, you don't know what to do. And, um, when, when the, when the, when it is a kind of underground thing. And by the way, I, I remember in the, like, when I first started thinking about God, I wonder if I could ever get my dad to take him DMA therapeutically. Um, and at the time it was like, it was too, it was too, it was, he was nearing

the end of his life and getting him into an actual, like, program, which I think is very important. And I love that y'all with the Ibogaine, you're mentioning how we've got doctors. We've got like a staff of doctors, the ability to resuscitate. My therapist was there because I think a lot of people get confused when they hear about this and they're like, Oh, great. I'm just going to give my loved one a shit ton of mushrooms and everything's going to be fine.

They don't understand. There is like all these other aspects to it. Um, but, uh, I, I remember hearing about this underground of veterans who like go around and give, give themselves, like treat each other with MDMA. Or have you heard of this? Do you know what I'm talking about? We heard of circles happening. I thought it was ayahuasca.

I'm not, we don't have anything to do with that. So we don't know a lot about it, but we've definitely heard. And I think that the reason why that's happening, of course, is because the need is so great and the therapies have such high rates of efficacy that, you know, you have people that are desperate and suffering and something that works so well. And Duncan, even us, right? Like for us to fund them, we may not be able to, like there might not be a

retreat center open for them in terms of like available slots, like slots available for them to treat for a month or two. So let's say two months now, you have an individual like, Hey, I, I can't wait two months. Like I need mushrooms. Now, or I need Ibogaine now. And so, yeah, of course, they're going to go find their own healing. And there are, there's, there's, you know, if you, I don't know what you want

to call them popups or undergrounds, um, yeah, all over, um, you know, and I don't know them personally, but what I keep hearing is it, it is all for healing. These are all like flood hero doses of the medicine. You know, we're talking like five to 10 grams of mushrooms. Like you are, you are, you are, you are sideways. You're not, you're not walking around. You're, you're lying down. You have ice on, you have music, you know, you have a therapist or a

shaman there administering it. Are you sure about that? Well, I don't know. That's the thing. I don't know. That's, that is the thing. It's not right. I don't know either.

And I think this is to me the tragedy of the slow moving bureaucracy of, of the VA and, and, and the slow moving nature of these things. And I know, you know what, I understand the slow moving nature of things because we don't want to go wrong. We don't want people to get hurt. We don't want it to backfire. We want this to actually work and be effective in something we can use for many, many generations to come.

But I, I know, you know, my, one of my friends has had experience with Ibogaine not going in the right direction. And, you know, people ending up in the psych ward who haven't slept for a couple of weeks, you know, like, and this can happen when people out of desperation or lack of resources, don't find treatment centers like the one you found and don't know how to find the right place. Or, you know, just by now, sadly, anyone in like the psychedelic community is probably your horror stories of like shamans grabbing people's tits or whatever,

you know, really fucked up shit where people are in vulnerable, super vulnerable states, getting sexually assaulted. And, you know, this is the, um, right now, I think one of the challenges in the psychedelic community is like, we're all becoming aware of the healing reality of these substances, we're hearing great stories like yours, you know what I mean, but we don't know where to go. And so we end up hearing about this person or that person and going on the wrong road and then stuff fucks up.

I, you know, I was someone I met at a meditation retreat, shared with me the story of their son who went to do ayahuasca, some, you know, wherever with somebody who didn't do what they did with you, who didn't look into the fact that this kid had bipolar, that this kid had a history of psychotic breaks. He doesn't, he takes ayahuasca, doesn't sleep for a week, jumps off a cliff. You know what I mean? This, this is, this is the, this is why I love what you're doing because it's not just like, look, you know, uh, being a missionary for the psychedelic

healing experience, but also like creating a map or a path or a way for people to safely, um, engage in this kind of therapy, even as it's still in its sort of embryonic state, as far as like popular culture goes, you know, maybe you could talk a little bit about that. I mean, I know people are going to hear this and I know it makes my heart hurt a little bit because I wish I'd connected with you all, you know, a few years ago, I wish that I'd known about this, but how people are going to want to reach out to you.

And you know, I'm sure you must get flooded with people saying, what do we do? What do I do? Yeah. So what do, what could people do who are wanting to, um, look into these treatments? Well, I'll tell you, we feel an innate sense of responsibility to, share a very responsible message in how to go about pursuing these therapies because it's not a one size fits all. It's not a miracle panacea.

It's not, you know, no true providers or experiences or medicines even are the same. Um, what started as Marcus finding healing through Ibogaine and five MEO, um, began, you know, like with this mission to help our friends and it has expanded over time to include all of our community naval special warfare and now all of special operations. So we've grown at a, you know, barely consistent and rapid pace over the last four years. Um, to date we've sponsored over 400 individuals in leaving the United States,

which is a travesty. I mean, they fought for this country. These therapies are so effective. They shouldn't, they deserve to be able to heal from those invisible wounds right here and within the borders of this country. And so our fight now is on a policy front because, you know, 400, that's great. It's respectable. It's admirable.

It's amazing that our donors have supported this, but it's 400. It's 400 over four years. It's, you know, roughly a hundred a year next year. We hope to reach 200. What is 200 in the bigger picture though? It's not a lot, but we realize that, you know, on the front lines of this new battle, we've got to keep fighting and keep pushing forward because every voice, every life that's impacted joins the chorus of, of voices that's growing louder

and louder and louder to encourage and plead with the government to please consider rescheduling these substances. Let's get, at minimum, get more research going in the United States so that hundreds of thousands or millions of people, veterans and Americans alike, can access these therapies and truly begin to heal on a spiritual level, on a psychological level and on possibly a physiological level. Yeah. I mean, Duncan, all the research that you were hearing about right now, like this

new renaissance, I mean, there's tons of it going on drug development. It's not happening here. It's happening in Toronto and it's happening in Canada and Germany and the UK. But not here, you know, companies are starting here, but they're literally contracting out and farming out all the research in areas where they're able to do these, do these studies. No, I know, you know, I bought some Canadian psychedelic stocks and a company that's like, I just thought it was funny to be able to like buy stock and a

company synthesizing LSD for, but it's for research. Yeah, I know it's, you know, one thing that's striking about what you said, and I just want to put it in italics, is we have these people who like really, really, truly put their lives in the most dangerous places you could possibly put them all over the fucking planet. And now they're having to leave their country to go to another country to, to get healed. And that, I don't know, that's, you know what, I'm going to say, it's shameful.

It's shameful. And it's, it's, it's really, really unbelievable that these people who've already been through so much shit are being put through more shit that you got to get on a fucking plane, go to some fucking place. Send it to the border for hours. Oh, what are you doing here? Why are you coming into this country? You know, having to answer questions, how do I answer them?

Then having to come back, having these incredible, like, treatment on a plane and like, anyway, so I just want to put that in italics. You're already paranoid, you don't trust anybody. Right. So this stuff is difficult, and like, we're just trying to navigate it. So, so, but I want to talk about how folks can maybe help that vets. But also, I want to talk about, because I know, like, and y'all already, I understand why it's special forces after you described it, makes a lot of sense.

But what about folks hearing this or like, well, uh, out of luck, you know, my, my folks are, my dad was just, you know, was not special forces, but definitely has seems to have these symptoms that I've heard about. What is there anything they can do? Yeah. Well, I would say the numbers are more in conventional forces just because there's more conventional forces. Yeah.

Right. So, um, this is where we struggle because we just, you know, there, there are vetted providers, there's, excuse me, there are vetted providers outside the U.S. So there's, there's Ibogaine clinics in Mexico. There's, you know, psilocybin retreats in Mexico and in places like Costa Rica. There's ayahuasca retreats in Costa Rica and Peru. Um, and that's, are these listed anywhere? Is there a listing?

We don't, our attorneys have, uh, encouraged us not to put out a list for liability purposes, but, um, I know third wave has a really great resource list of vetted retreat centers and third wave third wave. Yep. Yeah. Um, but, uh, yeah, we have an E course that we've developed for veterans that, you know, or anyone really can go to our website and sign up for this E course to get a better understanding of this is so new to the veteran community, but it's

so effective for all of the struggles that they're facing. Um, that you're right. We get absolutely inundated with requests and, and, um, applications. Even though our funding is restricted right now to special operations, we've grown dramatically over the past four years. And I hope one day we do grow into all conventional forces, but in all honesty, we can't even keep up with our own community in the naval special warfare, you know, seal community.

We can't even meet the demand there, let alone all special operations. So, you know, we're doing the best we can with the skeleton staff and these precious donor dollars. You know, I think that as we've grown in, um, visibility, we've gotten more donors that are supportive of our mission. And it's been really unique to have donors from like both sides of the aisle, you know, those that support cycle science and those that support veteran causes. And it's this beautiful unity.

It's this extremely purple area of just doing the right thing. This generation of veterans has been at war, some of them for 20 years. That's unprecedented. Marcus has plenty of friends that have done, you know, 10, 15, 20 combat deployments if they're on short three month cycles. And, um, you know, the toll that that takes on someone and to know that there's really not a lot available to them on the other side of their service is daunting. And we know that we can make a difference in their lives on the front lines here,

but that we're really going to start moving the needle when we, we advocate for policy change. So in 2022, we're going to start this big policy push, um, to get more states on board to follow Texas's lead really and getting research going. No two states will pass the same exact legislation. But if we can get psychedelic focused legislation going in, you know, a number of states, which right now we're working in about seven, um, I think that'll be the start. How do we help you? How can we help people are going to want to help? What can we do? Well, sharing our sharing our mission and message, um, our social media, you know,

sharing and growing that base. Of course, donor dollars are what keeps us going with other products. We don't have any sort of revenue stream other than just the goodwill of our donors and supporters. And we have, you know, everyone from $5 donors to my grandma wrote a check for $35 and six figure donors all the same. So we're great. Do you need organizers? Do you need people on the ground and some of these states to help you like do just to help you use ambassadors Duncan? You know, we need, we need individuals like reposting like Amber said, our social media, you know, we just want to get the word out there more. So if individuals, you know, our social media whizzes, we can use that. We can use, um,

policy experts like you just said on the ground in each state that's like leading the charge in that state. So right now we're looking for a director of policy and advocacy to head up at least for us, but then we need, you know, each individual state representation. Amber needs an executive assistant right now because we're so busy trying to think with us and we always need donations. I mean, we only work on, like we said, there's no revenue generation, right? We survive by donors and we're doing a good job, but we need more. I mean, this is, this is it. The average cost for a veteran in our program between the grant, the travel grant, the coaching costs is right around $5,000. That's with no

heads overhead. So, you know, you can just do quick math and see that at $5,000 to reach 200 in 2022 with no other initiatives on the plate, just our bare bones programming. That's a significant lift. Yeah. But compared to addiction, like other addiction centers that are ridiculously priced with $60,000, $100,000, it's not even, so this is a drop in the bucket. Listen, you two are amazing humans and I am so grateful that you've done all the hard work you're doing. I don't know how you're doing it. I get it with kids. I don't know how you're doing this. Because they're older, they've been very gracious and allowing us to fight just as hard for other families as we fought for our own. I mean, I think the veteran community and especially

the SEAL community that we're from, we take care of one another and the kids are a huge part of that. So, you know, this started with our immediate conviction to pay this forward to our friends and to share this and to alleviate suffering. And we've seen it replicated, you know, for every person who gets funding from us, they come back with two to five of their friends who need this same opportunity as soon as possible. So, it's created a demand that we just simply can't meet. And by impacting the life of one veteran, you're impacting the family and generations to come. You're impacting everyone in that person's community. It ripples out in the most beautiful ways. And I think we're just seeing the fruits of that now and how much potential the special

operations community has pushing this message forward. This is a group of unconventional soldiers who they're good soldiers to a point. And then it's like, okay, this isn't working. We're going to take this into our own hands and figure this out ourselves. And we're going to never leave anyone behind. So, we've all come together. Marcus and I are truly just one spoke on the wheel now at making this whole thing work. We've expanded beyond Ibogaine. We can provide funding for six different modalities, Ibogaine or Iboga, 5MEO DMT, Ketamine, psilocybin, MDMA, and ayahuasca. And giving veterans this opportunity to take our e-course, seek their own healing, what is calling them most, giving them the funding to leave the country. And then they come back and they're so

radically impacted that they get two to five of their buddies and then they get the opportunity. It's just expanded beyond our wildest imagination. And it is so exciting to know that this group can get the attention of the government, can go against whomever, FDA, DEA, big pharma, DOD. They have the respect and the attention. And by taking this message forward, all veterans will hopefully have the ability to heal and receive access to these therapies right here. So, they're on another mission. Marcus, Amber, God bless you. Thank you. Will you let people know where they can find you? Thatsolutions.org. Great. All the links you need to find them are going to be at dugitrustle.com. If you can't remember that, let's give them a

little money. This isn't it. Obviously, these are incredible people. I'm looking over. I'm looking over. No one's in my studio. It's so weird. I'm talking to a phantom person over here. Anyway, God bless you. It's awesome to meet you. And thank you for giving me your time to chat about this. Thank you. That was Marcus and Amber Capone, everybody. Check out Vets. The link will be at dugitrustle.com. Much thanks to our wonderful sponsors, Upstart, Fields, and Blue Chew. Happy holidays, everybody. I'll see you next week. Until then, Hare Krishna. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JC Penney. Family get-togethers to fancy

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