Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 508: Lama Rod Owens

Episode Date: May 20, 2022

Lama Rod Owens, brilliant Buddhist teacher, best-selling author, and yoga instructor, joins the DTFH! You can learn more about Lama Rod and sign up for his email list at LamaRod.com. Check out his new book, Love and Rage: The Path of Liberation through Anger, wherever you buy your books. You can also follow Lama Rod Owens on Instagram. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Squarespace - Use offer code: DUNCAN to save 10% on your first site. Athletic Greens - Visit AthleticGreens.com/Duncan for a FREE 1-year supply of vitamin D and 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase! Babbel - Sign up for a 3-month subscription with promo code DUNCAN to get an extra 3 months FREE!

We are family. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JCPenney. Family get-togethers to fancy occasions, wedding season two. We do it all in style. Dresses, suiting, and plenty of color to play with. Get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne, Worthington, Stafford, and Jay Farrar.

Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in-store, and we're never short on options at jcp.com. All dressed up everywhere to go. JCPenney. Don't call me a peeper because I need to see. They didn't understand Gandhi, and they sure don't understand me.

I like the smell of underwear. You're not wearing anything in between Project Blue Book and ATEEZ. You can get out, you demon. You can get out, you baby butchering. And some folks say when the Great Met leaves, and the waves are dusky blue, the moon man fishes for two little dreams.

He lost when the world was new, and some folks say in the late night hours. While the long thin shadows slide, the moon man fishes for cold sea flowers under the tumbling tops. We were talking about, that's trans-medium travel and water. The ability for an object to fly not only in our atmosphere, low and high altitudes, but also potentially

in a vacuum environment like space and even under water. Metaphysiological Contelligence integrates engineering. Particles creates atoms. Think energies which comprise all structures in the universe are available for management. The Metaphysiological Contelligence. Ops, designs, architects, all forms of matter

by manipulating nuclear particles and gravitational force fields. So don't forget to brush your teeth. This is the wind from the Cave 743 AM. My name is D. Trussell. Welcome to the Dunkin Trussell Family Hour Show. We've got a fantastic conversation for you today with Lama Rod Owens.

But first this, I wanna thank Squarespace for supporting this episode of the DTFH. It's the all-in-one platform for building your brand and growing your business online. And it's what I use for the DTFH. You wanna make your eyeballs orgasm? Go to dunkitrussell.com and stare at the greatness that I was able to create using Squarespace.

Squarespace is like a magical toolbox built with incredible and arcane technological implements that you can use to enhance, amplify and signal boost whatever it is you wanna blast in to the techno mind of our planet that we're currently calling the internet. It is awesome. You can, if you're in a hurry,

you wanna create some kind of really cool troll website to play pranks on your friends, you can do that. They have mix and match templates. You can have a website up in a matter of minutes, maybe an hour. You want something complex, beautiful, deep, powerful, like dunkitrussell.com, you can do that too. Not only that, but if you're interested

in creating member-only areas for your podcast, they now have that so you can monetize your content or create exclusive content for your clients and fans. They also have a video studio if you needed and you can do email campaigns using Squarespace's awesome design tools so you can create beautiful emails for your clients. They'll connect all your social media accounts

and of course, they've got the best analytics out there so you can find out who is checking out your stuff. Right now, head over to squarespace.com, forward slash dunkin' and try them out. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code dunkin' and you're gonna get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain. Again, you can go to squarespace.com,

forward slash dunkin' for a free trial. When you're ready to launch, use offer code dunkin' to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or a domain. Thanks Squarespace. And we are back. Oh, won't you go to Amazon and pick up a copy of Esoterotica One,

a collection of short erotic stories with cryptid encounters. That translates into, these are big foot fuck stories written by my dear Patreon family. All proceeds are going to various nonprofits. So not only will you get some super hot, boner making, pussy spraying material, you're also gonna be helping various groups of people for as long as that book is hanging out on Amazon.

It's Esoterotica. Check it out, links are at dunkitrustle.com. Did you know I do stand-up comedy? I have dates coming up. You can find them at dunkitrustle.com to just scroll down and you'll see them all. I'm gonna be in Helium Comedy Club in Philadelphia, June 9th through the 11th.

Zany's in Rosemont, June 23rd to the 25th. The comedy works July 14th through the 16th. And the comedy store, La Jolla, August 12th through August 14th and Cobb's Comedy Club, September 23rd to the 24th. All those links, dunkitrustle.com. And now everyone, welcome to the DTFH, the brilliant Lama Rod Owens.

Today, all the links you need to find them will be at dunkitrustle.com. Welcome Lama Rod Owens to the DTFH. The Lama Rod. Welcome, welcome on you. That you are with us. Shake hands, no need to be moved. Welcome to you.

It's the Dunkin' Tristle, the Dunkin' Tristle, the Dunkin' Tristle, the Dunkin' Tristle, the Dunkin' Tristle, the Dunkin' Tristle, the Dunkin' Tristle. Lama Rod, welcome to the DTFH. It's really nice to meet you. Yeah, thank you for inviting me. Why don't we start off with a real basic question,

one that I realized I haven't asked any of my teachers, even the teachers in the tradition that you're in. What is crazy wisdom? I don't think anyone really knows, and I think we keep it ambiguous for a reason to like, just to say anything that we do is like skillful and in line with Dharma. But I think it's exactly that.

I think it's a lot of things, right? But I think when we talk about crazy wisdom, it's just this wisdom that's so precise, that it's so disrupting, you know that it seems like completely out there, right? It seems like it's out there because we're so tied into like being stable and permanent and predictable,

which is really not the nature of things, right? So when someone comes along and kind of like throws something at us that disrupts us, it feels really aggressive and really like out there. When in fact, it's something that's trying to get us aligned with the reality of things. What's in your own life, what is an example of when someone has done that to you?

Yeah, like a really good example is when I moved to my monastery and they told me to open up a cafe. What? Yeah, that's, you know, it gets, it really gets like that. And- Ah, that's so wild, that's the last, that is literally of all the things I expected you to say, I couldn't have guessed that in a million years. Open a cafe where?

In your, at the monastery or where? Yeah, well, the monastery owned kind of a cafe property. It wasn't being used, it was closed. They wanted to get rid of it, you know, and they knew that I had a background, you know, and food service and so my teacher asked me to head up a team of people to get it going again so they could like get rid of it.

Right? So I'm preparing to enter into long retreat, three year retreat, and I'm having to run a cafe. And of course, one of the monastics one day was like, do you understand why this is happening? Right? Like, and I was like, no, absolutely not, you know? But looking back at really, there was a lot of benefit.

I got a lot out of the experience before kind of giving up everything and going, you know, into silent retreats, you know, but it was something that really helped me to work through a lot of stuff, you know, that I couldn't have ever imagined. You were silent for three years? Yep.

Three years. For me, I'm an introvert. So that was like a dream come true, right? Like, you know, just put me away, close to me, tell me to be quiet, you know, of course, yeah. Absolutely. Wow. But come on, I mean, no matter how introverted you may be,

human language on a daily basis, expressing yourself through words, it seems like to remove that for me for 10 minutes, I'm so yappy, but for three years seems, I can't imagine, can you describe what I was like? Well, and I think speech is just one way that we're communicating with ourselves or with others around us.

And I think that being in a situation where you can't, you know, have this kind of communication with others, the attention and the energy that you invested in maintaining external relationships through communication actually is inverted. Like you turn that attention and energy inside and you begin to understand

how you have been communicating with yourself or not ever communicating with yourself. Oh, right. So you have to understand that silence isn't silence, right? Like we say silence, sometimes we think, oh, silence is the absence of noise, but in silence, sitting in meditation, it is very active, your mind,

our minds are quite busy, right? So I didn't long for interaction with others because I had a whole bunch of drama happening in my own mind that was sometimes quite entertaining, other times very frustrating. I bet, you were cloistered, are you saying that you spent most of this time by yourself? Was there any kind of interaction with other monastics or?

Yeah, it was a small group of us, it was about four of us, eventually with a caretaker who was responsible for cooking and shopping and doing things for us on our behalf in the outside world. Most of our time was spent alone in our private space, our private rooms, doing practice. We had breaks and periods of interaction

because you're living in a cloister, you're living in a small community, so there are things that had to be done, you had to do house cleaning, you had to wash clothes, you have to eat, you know. Some periods of the retreat, we could actually talk to one another, but then there were long periods

where we couldn't say a word to one another. What is the preparation for entering into that kind of retreat look like? You know, in my case, I don't think I prepared at all. Some people really, really train to prepare. Some of that training could look like working with the language, this is a Tibetan tradition, so learning Tibetan,

getting proficient in some of the core practices that you would be exploring. Sometimes the training looks like learning how to be in silence for long periods of time. Ideally, you would do that training, right? But for me, I just knew that I wanted to do it, I knew that I had to do it, you know, and I had to do it to save my life, really,

because I felt like I was out of control emotionally and mentally, right? And so my training was really simply moving to the monastery and being in with the community, you know, doing the basics of learning the language, right? And just learning how to kind of shut my life down. It's like you're just dimming your life in the outside world down, like you're dimming a light

to be able to kind of transition into this really radical way of being. Being still, being silent, being introspective, contemplative. So, okay, I get the preparation, learning a language, understanding the tradition, but I mean just like the basic cell phone bills, where you're living.

Well, you give up all of that. Thank you, Athletic Greens, for supporting this episode of the DTFH. My God, I love this stuff. It's one delicious scoop, and you're absorbing 75 high quality vitamins, minerals, whole foods, or superfoods, probiotics, and adaptogens.

Do I like those words? Yes, do I necessarily know what they are? No, but what's great about Athletic Greens is it doesn't matter. It makes me feel good. It gives me focus and energy. In the morning, if I had too many vodka sodas the night before, it resets my brain.

I try to drink it every single day. This stuff tastes great. It's not like you're slurping back vitamin powder. It's delicious, and your body will love it. This is not on their script they want me to read. They're not, and so this isn't their point of view, but I'm telling you, when I'm drinking this stuff, it's like my body knows it's getting something good.

I don't have to explain it. It's like a vacuum opens in my cellular body, and just slurps this stuff up. It makes you feel good. Costs you less than $3 a day. That's investing in your health, and all in one nutritional insurance, and it supports mental clarity and alertness.

Again, it just makes me feel good. I like it. I'm not a vitamin guy. I'm not gonna have vitamin packets, or those weird calendar capsule things that people have, or those big, gross jars of protein powder. I need something simple that I can scoop into my cup and drink as though I were feeding a dog,

because that's how disorganized I am. Right now, it's time to reclaim your health and arm your immune system with convenient daily nutrition, especially now. It's just one scoop and a cup of water every day. That's it. No need for a million different pills and supplements to look out for your health.

To make it easy, Athletic Greens is gonna give you a free one-year supply of immune-supporting vitamin D and five free travel packs with your first purchase. All you have to do is visit athleticgreens.com forward slash Duncan. Again, that's athleticgreens.com forward slash Duncan. Again, that's athleticgreens.com forward slash Duncan to take ownership over your health

and pick up the ultimate daily nutritional insurance. Thank you, Athletic Greens. ["The Last Day of the Day"] So, okay, I get the preparation, learning a language, understanding the tradition, but I mean, just like the basic cell phone bills, where you're living. Well, you give up all of that.

How do you do that? I mean, do you tell your friends? It's almost like you're preparing for your own death or something. Well, it is a death. It is a dying, right? Your old self is dying and you're preparing to give birth to a newer self, right?

Yeah. And then what you're speaking to is the logistics, like the bills and the relationships and the house and the car and the insurance and money, right? Those are logistics that, for me, were quite simple. It was simple for me because I didn't have anything, right? Okay, yeah. It is more difficult for people who are older,

more established, who do have the families and the mortgages and the car payments. It takes more time to wind those things down. But as a person in my 20s coming into this situation, I didn't have shit. I had some clothes, I had some CDs, right? I had a few lovers, you know? But that was like, I gladly got rid of that, you know?

Did you break some hearts? Did you break some hearts? I did, well, I broke some hearts and I disappointed a lot of people, you know? Because as, you know, I think it's quite natural to assume that when your friend or your family member tells you that they're going into a three-year retreat and they'll be shaving their heads

and wearing a burgundy dress and you can't visit at all. You know? That is natural to assume that that loved one is joining a cult. Right. Right, you know? 100%. And so that's what you have to kind of hold as well.

Yeah. Like when people are coming to you and saying, I'm really concerned that you're doing something really dangerous and really extreme and you have to look at them and say, I know exactly what I'm doing and I'm gonna do this and I'll see you in three years, you know? Yeah.

That's no different than what someone else in a cult would say. I know. And you know that, like you know that, you know what the optics are and, right? You know that you have to do this because you know what it really is. Right.

You know, it's not brainwashing, it's actually healing. Right. And beginning to understand who you are. That's more of a Western problem, right? I mean, in the East, if people say they're going on a three-year retreat, it's a little less dramatic probably, at least in some cultures. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, the practice of spirituality in countries and cultures that center spiritual practice. Like we center religious practice. Right. In the West, particularly in this country, it's religion. It's dogma. It's ritual. It's ceremony, right?

Yeah. But spirituality is a deeper engagement with self, with our minds, with our bodies, right? It is a relationship that we're developing with the unseen world. Right. Right. And energy, right?

We're getting to the essence of who we are. So that goes beyond ritual, ceremony, a dogma. It gets into an experience of who we are. Right. This is, and there's a little bit of, I don't know what you'd call it, illiteracy when it comes to even the difference between those two things in the West,

adding to the cult, the feeling. And also, we have, I don't know, there's cults everywhere, but we have some pretty rotten examples of what you're talking about being actually toxic and dangerous. Did you ever think to yourself though, during these conversations, holy shit, am I joining a cult?

No, not at all. I'll tell you the truth though, on the other end of it, I completely recognize that there were many aspects of cults, thinking and culture that was quite evident and present. Like what? You know, like the allegiance to a charismatic leader. Yep.

Basically, right, that defines many cults, right? Sure. And the way that we're taught to have this kind of devotion and unquestioning, unquestioning devotion to this leader, right? But isn't the idea that sometimes that you need to, if I'm, I don't know, if I'm getting work done on my house, I need to have a kind of trust in the person doing the work.

I don't know anything about putting up drywall. So if I'm sitting there being like, are you sure? That seems weird to me, I've never done this before, or a doctor, or a guide through a forest or something like that. Isn't that what Lama means, guide? Like is an idea, like you need to have this

unquestioning trust for this process to be effective. Well, you know, I think there's a couple of things. I think when you talk about, I'll start with this, this understanding of Lama. Lama is just a Tibetan word for guru, right? You know, but guru and Lama actually doesn't mean teacher. Actually, it means one who's deepened in spiritual awareness through deepening realization, right?

You know, who shares that realization, but the first meaning is a gravitas, like a heaviness of spiritual realization, you know? And that's why I have to start. Like I can't stay in this space of being a teacher. I have to always come back to the practice of deepening, you know, but as to the devotion, right? Yes, trust, the heart of devotion is trusting.

Like I have to trust the guide to get me from point A to point B, but I also have to retain a level of agency where at any point I can say what the hell is going on. Right, yeah. And I think a good teacher can hold doubt and feedback and critique and pushback, right? And I think the best teacher can actually practice a profound transparency and to say, you know what?

Yeah, this is what's happening. Right, yeah. No, see, because to me, this is where crazy wisdom can become problematic and that if it falls into the wrong hands, somebody could be exploiting you, doing rotten things and say, well, look, you just don't understand. You see, you're so locked into your old life

that you don't realize that part of crazy wisdom is me giving you lavender baths with a bok ag in your mouth or whatever it may be, you know? And then that's where it becomes really difficult to like, I get weird, I'm weird enough to think, you know what, I kind of can see how that would be. Right. That would help me.

It's real sweet because like what we're looking for is for someone to do the work for us. I just want to like give everything over to you and you're going to set me free, right? It's like, if I vote for you, you get me free, right? Yes. If I give you enough money, right? You're going to get me free.

I can buy my way to heaven, right? That'd be great. You know, I know, wouldn't it? Right, you know, but like no one can get us free except for ourselves. It's through our individual labor with the support of communities and others around us that we get free.

So when I'm entering into a relationship with a teacher, I retain a level of agency, you know, self-awareness, right? Sure. The choice to do what I feel like I need to do because I need to retain that agency to do my own work. Right. You know, and the problem is for a lot of Westerners, we enter, we don't actually understand what devotion is.

We think devotion is someone else doing work for us. Devotion is trusting someone to show us what the work is. Then we go and do the work. Right. And it's the work that begins to direct us to what's next. Okay. So I don't rely on the teacher to keep telling me what to do. Like I rely on my experience of practice,

which is deepening my clarity and care for myself and others. That becomes the teacher ultimately. Okay. Yeah. That's cool. I love that. But hey, what does freedom mean to you? How do you define freedom? Yeah.

I'm actually writing about freedom right now in my book, my next book, New Saints, coming out next year. Freedom, you know, freedom is for me choice. Choice, like to, and relatively, freedom is having access to the resources that I need to be well, safe and happy. Yeah. You know, ultimately, freedom is the recognition

of the illusion of the relative, you know? Yeah. Right. Yes. It's moving beyond binaries. Right. Up and down, black and white, left and right, and beginning to actually tune into and develop a relationship to this inherent,

like, emptiness, space, and fundamental energy. Fundamental energy. I've heard it called fundamental goodness. Yeah. I like fundamental energy. That's a little more neutral or something. I don't know what goodness is really. I don't really get that.

But you've heard that term before. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, basic goodness, fundamental goodness. You know, I'm very interested in the most direct understanding of something, the most direct definition of something. I don't know, like when I say fundamental goodness, then I have to define what goodness is.

Right. You know? But when I talk about energy, fundamental energy, energy, right? You know, there are different qualities of energy, different kinds of energy. There's energy that's aware of itself, and we call that consciousness.

Yes. You know? There's energies that create energies that bind energies that destroy or disperse, right? I'm just trying to get to that. Right. And I'm trying to understand that that's fundamentally what I am.

Right. Yeah, I like the distinction that comes up in Buddhism between absolute and relative reality. And I like the, that's a very useful, that's very liberating to me in the sense that I am so hypnotized. So hypnotized by relative reality in the most, and it's terrifying when you realize

that you have become sort of, I don't know, stuck on a kind of planet that doesn't really exist, but you're in this gravity field of something. Why are we in this situation in the first place? Like, do you have any explanation for what got us here? Well, you know, that's complex, you know? But let me give it a try. Thank you.

Wow! You know, I just think that with anything, like think, well, think of it like this. Imagine a stream, like a stream moving through the woods, right? And when you look at certain streams, you see certain, you know, obstacles or like things like blocking the flow of the stream.

Yeah. You know, like beavers will come and do dams and like there'll be rocks and so forth and so on. So think of consciousness as just the stream, right? And then there are things that arise in the stream, then the stream kind of gets kind of split, you know? That is how we fall into this situation. Our consciousness got snagged on something

and that snag was a thought. And that thought took us out of the grand consciousness, you know? And then that started creating different streams of reality. And it took us away from the larger stream into these minor streams. And then we started believing that these smaller streams were, was it?

Yeah. You know? And what we're trying to do is get back. We're trying to rejoin the grand larger stream, you know, which is the grand consciousness. It's, is this a mistake? Is this an accident? Is this like some kind of cosmic version

of a bird getting stuck in something in the woods? Or is it, you know what I mean? Is this just a mistake? It was, yeah, it was a mistake, right? And the mistake was intensified when we forgot that this was all just an illusion to begin with. Right. We started, we started getting too curious about the snag.

Yeah. You know, as we do in our normal lives, how we create a whole bunch of shit out of nothing. Yeah. This is what's happened. We have to unpack the shit to get back to the experience of the illusion. Yeah.

Yeah. And this is suffering is basically what we're talking about here. This is a natural byproduct of this interrupted stream is this what most people, varying forms of suffering. Yeah. Various forms of suffering, which is this thought that there is something that is suffering

that can experience suffering. God, it's so crazy. It's such a wild. It's so wild, you know, to get close to it like that. This episode of the DTFH has been supported by Babel. My loves, I cannot tell you how excited I am to take my family to Paris. I want to do it.

It's a dream. I know it's not going to happen right away, but as soon as the kids are a little bit older, you better believe we are heading to Paris. I went there a long time ago and I loved it. Hung out in the Parisian catacombs, ate incredible French food and embarrassed myself time and time again when I was trying to speak French

and let me tell you, people in Paris don't like it when you try to speak French. They want you to speak French and this is why I love Babel. With Babel, you only need 10 minutes to complete a lesson. So you can start having real life conversations in a new language in as little as three weeks. Other language learning apps use AI for their lesson plans,

but Babel lessons were created by over 150 language experts. Their teaching method has been scientifically proven to be effective. With Babel, you can choose from 14 different languages, including Spanish, French, Italian, and German. Plus, Babel's speech recognition technology helps you to improve your pronunciation and accent. There are so many ways to learn with Babel.

In addition to lessons, you can access podcasts, games, video stories, and even live classes. Plus, it comes with a 20-day money-back guarantee. Start your new language learning journey today with Babel. Go to Paris and seem like you are some kind of poet slash anthropologist slash Anthony Bourdain style gourmand. Right now, save up to 60% off your subscription when you go to babel.com slash Duncan.

That's Babel, B-A-B-B-E-L.com slash Duncan. We're up to 60% off your subscription. Babel, language for life. Thank you, Babel. ["Babel, Babel, B-A-B-E-L.com"] It's so wild, you know, to get close to it like that. Because you're, you know,

you're especially unaided by any psychedelics or anything. You know, sometimes I would take just the right amount of LSD. You know, I can get him like, oh my God, I'm not real. But even then, you're saying an I. But yeah, so this problem or whatever we want to call it, this issue that we find ourselves completely entangled and snared, wrapped up in illusion. How does that square with the idea

that everything's perfect, crazy wisdom, this is all part of the dharma, that's all a teaching? You know, how does one negate the other or how do these two possibilities coexist? Yeah, well, I think the perfect text that speaks to this is the heart sutra, you know, which is the text, the sermon the Buddha gave, you know, on an India, you know,

it's called the heart attack sutra, you know, because when he, you know, started teaching it, people just started like falling out and dying and having heart attacks because it was so intense. Do you believe that, do you believe that really happened? Not really, but what I do believe with, you know, when people, when beings are awakened, they emit, they radiate a certain kind of energy

that's hard to hold and when they are really open, you know, and just really like pouring it on, I think it's hard to manage. So when you have this being who's just sitting there going like, oh yeah, you know, there's the absolutes and there's the relative and both of them are true and they're even truer when you have to practice them together at the same time.

You know, that's, I can feel, I can feel like the tension when I get close to trying to like practice the absolutes and the relative together at the same moment. How do you do that? Yeah, you know, and that's what we're trying to do. Like we're trying, you're not negating anything. You're just saying that both of these things are true

at the very same time in the very same moment. And how do I live a life that incorporates both at the same time, knowing that I can't intellectually figure this out, that this is only an experience and this experience is intended to deeply disrupt me. Which, the experience of relative reality or the experience of trying to open up or wake up?

Well, the experience of waking up by holding both the absolute and the relative together. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, is there a way to not hold it together though? Isn't that kind of the problem? Is that, I mean, isn't it some form of crucifixion we're dealing with here? Right?

We're kind of like, how do we get off the ride really? You know, so, and is it that it's so weirdly, at least initially unbearable to recognize the absolute while being wrapped up in the gears of the relative that we kind of burrow into the relative just to evade that, the reality that's already there? It could be, that's definitely possible, but the other intent is to short circuit

that analytical mind that's always trying to make everything make sense. You know, because none of this makes sense. That's what the harsh sutra is telling us. This doesn't make sense. This is like ridiculous. Would you mind saying some of the heart sutra for folks who might not be familiar with it?

Well, you know, I think the core teaching of the heart sutra is form is emptiness. Emptiness is form. Form is no other than emptiness. Emptiness is no other than form. So what it's setting up is this kind of puzzle or this kind of mind training that says that like, if you're an extremist,

then you're actually not practicing the truth. So if you're living completely in the absolute, but you're living in the relative, then you're not actually practicing the teaching. Or if you're living in the relative and with no view of the absolute, then you're still not doing the teaching. That when you're in the relative,

you have to understand this is also the absolute. This just so you know, sorry to cut you off, please continue, I apologize, that was rude. Oh, go ahead, go ahead. This heart sutra, by the way, my arm's going numb. This is your fault. This heart sutra, I did a, forget three year retreat,

I did a weekend retreat here in Asheville, North Carolina, years and years and years ago when I was in college, sitting, staring at a wall, then they start doing the heart sutra. I wasn't prepared, I didn't even know the heart sutra existed and they're like, you know, in that kind of monotone no life, no death. I left, I went to get a beer.

I'm like, I'm out of here, I can't deal with this, it's too much and I split. So I understand, I go back and forth on the heart attack, but I kind of think it did happen maybe. But then I'm like, no way that's possible. I kind of think like, if you're that tuned into someone and they blow your whole game up, you could just give up your body or something.

Well, if you get the rug pulled from under you too quickly, it's hard to maintain relationships with the ego, because nowhere in Buddhism are we being asked to erase anything. You're always being asked to realize the illusion of everything. So when you have, this is a part of cult mentality. Like when a cult says that like you have to erase thoughts,

you know, you have to erase the sense of self, that's brainwashing. Right. But in Dharma, we're saying, no, you're not trying to get rid of anything. We're just trying to understand that like all this stuff is just an illusion. So you have choice to choose something different

than just buying in to what you think is real. Right. It's something maybe for some people that sounds like bad news. What do you mean this is all an illusion? My mom, my dad, my kids, my body, what? But the more you work with it, the more you're like, oh, it's the best news ever.

What do you want to be frozen permanently in some kind of static thing forever? Well, it's like being in the relative with no understanding of absolute. It's like living your life in a coffin, you know? And then someone comes along, flips the lid open and you're terrified because all you know is the coffin. All you know is this really tight space.

Because it's all about comfort and familiarity. Like this is what I know, I know confinement. I know the carceral state. Yes. Right, I get that. Everything is defined for me. I don't have to work, you know? Right.

Like what I get and what I'm offered is what I take. But when we start talking about freedom, it's like I have to transcend comfort and I also have to transcend discomfort, you know? This is why I don't like the term like fundamental goodness because we have to transcend goodness as well to get free. All concepts have to be transcended. My teacher said something that told me once,

I think everything might be neutral Duncan and I really hated it. I was like, don't say it, just don't ever say that again. I don't want to hear that ever again. And it's hard to hear that when you're having fun. Like when you like love shit, like, you know? But when you're told that like, no, actually, like your enjoyment and pleasure is a very small,

finite thing compared to what actual liberation is. Yeah. You know? Like we can't fathom it. This is why we struggle to understand all kinds of liberation from social liberation to ultimate liberation because we can't fathom what it means to be free because we've never been free.

Like, how do you, how do you even get there? Right? And again, it comes back to the heart suture for me. It's just like, it's not something I can think about. It's something that I sit and experience. All right. Yeah, right. You can't think your way out of this damn coffin, huh?

Yeah. You have to come back to this really basic sensation, this basic awareness and knowing like this is what this is. Like, oh yeah. Like my, you know, my back hurts, right? Yeah. What is that? And stop thinking about it, just experience it.

Yeah, right, right, right. And the experience opens to the freedom. Okay, okay. So the story, right? This is the story or add-ons as they call it or the poison arrow. Okay, I love that you brought this up. I've been thinking about it quite a bit lately.

Yeah, dropping the story. And I've been working with that when I've, you know, it's amazing how if I do that, I'm suddenly having the best day ever. Or a great day or at least a day unencumbered by whatever my particular neurosis in that moment is. But this is what I've been worried about. Isn't that sociopathic?

Like, if I, you know what I mean? If I'm feeling bad because I acted out or if I'm feeling bad because I was, I don't know, angry or whatever. And then I dropped that story. And I, and successfully. So suddenly it's like, no, I'm just, you're in this moment in this place.

Isn't that what sociopaths do to not feel bad about doing things that you shouldn't do? Well, I think there's a, you have to understand that what we're also working with is space. And so like, I'm not trying to drop anything. I'm just trying to allow space to hold everything. So I stay in relationship.

But if I feel bad, like I do, you know, this happens all the time for me. Like I do something stupid, really fucked up. And I'm sitting with the guilt, the shame, whatever it is. I'm not trying to get rid of that. I'm just trying to suffer less. Right. You know, because that shame or really whatever,

the discomfort in that moment is actually teaching me something that I need to pay attention to. So if I try to get rid of it, I'm losing a teaching and a lesson. But what I'm doing is saying, like, oh, like there's more happening than this shame or guilt from doing something really messed up. Right.

You know, and that's a kind of care that I offer myself because that's going to help me really like stay in a relationship to this discomfort, right? Because that relationship is helping me to understand how to be in relationship with myself and how to be in a relationship with others. You know. Okay.

So basic question. I'm sorry. Yeah. So when in Buddhism, when they talk about the end of suffering, they don't mean the end of discomfort. When we talk about the end of all, absolutely on the absolute level, it is the exhaustion of suffering. On the relative level, when we talk about the exhaustion

of suffering, it actually means the awakening of space and the realization that the nature of suffering is an expression of space, emptiness, and energy. It doesn't go away. Wait, wait. The expression, wait. Can you please say that one more time? The expression of suffering, discomfort,

is like all phenomena. It's the same essence. It's space, it's emptiness, it's energy, right? But we have an ego, the sense of self that's labeling the experience and making it to a story that's really centering us. This good, this bad, this, this is happening to me. This is my suffering.

Why am I suffering? Why am I doing this? You know. Okay. Okay. But on the relative, like we're not trying to like, like we're not trying to like completely erase suffering because we won't necessarily, like,

but we're just trying to understand what suffering is. You're talking about the basic fundamental energy. It's like, you're not gonna erase that. That's here, that's this, but you're putting these labels on it that are causing all kinds of issues. Exactly. Well, I'm enlightened now.

Thanks, I don't need to, I'm just kidding. I want to ask you, I've always wondered what Buddhist, what in general, and I know there's many lineages of Buddhism, but what their take is on gayness and being gay. And so I was excited to talk to you because you're a llama and you're gay.

And so can you, for folks listening, what is the Buddhist stance or is there a Buddhist stance as opposed to like fundamentalist Christianity, their bigots, they think God doesn't like gay people or a lot of world religions have like completely, what's the word for it? Somehow managed to turn being like homophobic into an aspect of their religion.

So what's Buddhist, how does Buddhism look at it? Yeah, well, I think you have to think about it in two ways. I think there's cultural, you know, Buddhist practice and then there's ultimate Buddhist practice. Ultimately, you know, and this is, you know, from definitely from my perspective, like it doesn't matter.

Yeah. You know, this isn't, you know, a sin, it's not, you know, a hindrance, right? You know, because in Buddhism, it's not what we're doing is why we're doing it. You know, what's the intention, right? If the intention is about love, compassion, liberation. Yeah.

Right? You know, that's what we're concerned with, you know? That's the heart of Buddhadharma and ethics. It's like, why are we doing this? And is it aligned with liberation? Right. And of course, to be aligned with liberation means that you're also centering love

and compassion and wisdom. You know, so, but when you start talking about any cultural practice of a spiritual path or religion, then you're getting into these systems that conflate spiritual practice with, you know, the functionality of culture and civilizations, right? You know, how gayness or queerness doesn't function in a culture because ultimately what cultures

are interested in is reproduction. Yeah. You know, but also, you know, because of the intense kinds of patriarchy, right? That we've been really struggling with for thousands and thousands of years, right? Patriarchy is about rigidity. It's about compartmentalizing.

Yeah. You know, just saying to like, this is this and that is that, right? And when there's a kind of blurring of the lines, right? That's seen as antagonistic to the culture because it becomes unclear, it becomes ambiguous and we can't survive an ambiguity. Oh, right, yeah.

And it's hard for us to control other people if there's so much ambiguity. So if you have the power to define someone, their identity and force them to maintain that identification, then you can more easily control them. Right. Right. And this is all we're talking about is control

and using violence to control. Keeping things rigid and clear and straightforward. Efficient. Yeah, you know. Yeah, it seems like it's antithetical to what we were just talking about that the ambiguity that this is something that's always frustrated me with working with my teachers.

Just there's never like my ego or my identity really wants answers. Or my other teacher, Tejo Munic, who I first studied with, when I was working with her, she was just making me clean the temple. And finally I said, are you giving me a book or something and meditate? She goes, I meditate.

And she was like, well, what was the Buddha doing when he achieved realization? And I was like, oh, right, the practice, meditating. There is no book, but man, we sure hate it. There's not me, me, you don't, I do. I don't like the ambiguity. I feel safer if like, okay, this is my practice. Now I'm on the path.

Now I'm off the path. I'm playing Elden Ring till 2 a.m. This isn't Buddhism. What's wrong with me? I'm a dad. Why am I staying up so late playing video games? Okay, I'm meditating again. This is the path.

I don't, that where the line gets blurry between those two things, I don't know. It, I lose control and it bugs the shit out of me. Yeah, I mean, that's how the ego maintains itself. It's through this level of control and clarity. Yeah. You know, this is that and this is this. Like this is me, this is you.

And I want to do everything to maintain these lines because my ego depends on the external world to define itself. I don't know who I am. If I can't figure out who you are. And if I can't figure out who you are, then I get thrown into a tailspin where I get really confused and full of doubt.

And because I don't have a practice to hold that ambiguity and doubt that I actually start reverting to violence against myself and against others because the ego is trying to firm itself up by any means necessary. Making enemies. That's a great way to firm up. Making enemies, making war,

forcing people to be something that they're not, you know, because that's how I'm using that to define who I am. I bet you have helped so many gay people, so many people who thought that like, you didn't even understand that there was a way for Buddhism to work with their identity, whatever it may be. Well, you know, here's the thing for me.

It's like, I didn't depend on Buddhism to tell me that I was okay. Right. Like I already figured that out. Like I figured out that like being queer, being gay was not an issue. The real issue was the culture of the society that I was living in that was telling me that I was wrong.

Like I already figured that out. And so when I came into Dharma and people were like, oh, what does Buddhism say about, you know, queerness? I was like, I don't give a fuck what Buddhism says. So I felt queer is quite honestly, you know, like that's the furthest, you know, this is what I think because I am experiencing more freedom and fluidity than I've ever experienced in my life.

And that is because of the fundamentals of practice that say nothing about sexuality and gender and identity. It says awareness, wisdom, love, compassion, you know, like the fundamentals. Yes, and I love that. That's a real way for me to not feel so guilty because I think most people aren't nefarious, you know, like if you look at why you're doing something generally,

it's not like, I wanna fuck up the world or let me cause problems. It's usually that within it is some kind of sloppy, maybe sloppy, but legitimate attempt to bring peace to yourself or people around you. But in this lineage of Buddhism, people get confused, I guess I do too, because there isn't there an aspect of sexuality here, Tantra,

this like not sort of relegating the sexual energy to some cabinet that you're not supposed to look in. Did you study that in Retreat or have you been taught anything about that? Well, I think part of maybe what you're alluding to is like Tantric sex, you know, or just like... The masculine, feminine, energies, merging. Well, they have nothing to do

with physical relative gender. Like that's what we get real confused about. Like it doesn't, because I'm a cisgender male, it doesn't mean that like I don't have a lot of feminine energy, you know, advice first or what, you know, and so many things can be drawn from that, right, different kinds of combinations. But, you know, it's what we're again talking about

is the nature of the mind and energy, right? And what we're trying to tap into is that fundamental energy again, you know, that definitely is a part of my body, right? And all my, you know, identities that I occupy, you know, but as I have this body and identities, I am not this body and identities, you know, I'm actually this energy, you know,

and that's what I'm practicing with. Yes. And so we can, you know, often I get questions about tantric sex and the pairing of opposite energies. And I say, well, you know, once you evolve into higher levels of consciousness, you can shape energy, you know, to manifest in whatever ways needed

in order to experience liberation in the moment. Right. You know, but you can skillfully use the pairing of opposite energies, you know, to get somewhere, but like, you don't have to stay there. No, I know. I mean, gosh, no, the anima, the anima stuff, masculine, feminine, energy, swirling,

or listen to my voice, does it sound like a dude's in me? No, you know, I haven't once, when I call down an hotel, there hasn't been a single time where someone has been like, yes, Mr. Trussell, it's always, yes, Mr. Trussell, I just gave up like fine, I don't care, what am I gonna, I don't say, I just order wine. That's the thing, and that's like what we have to get to, is that like, it doesn't matter how you identify me,

as long as like, you're not getting in the way of me getting free. Right, or am I getting my room service? Yeah, like, yeah. I'm sorry, I didn't, yeah, and also, but I like going back to your, like, why are you doing, what's the, if someone is like talking to you, what's, what is the reason, what's behind there,

whatever, and you know, if there's aggression there, then I guess, you know, there is a reason to be defensive, right? Yeah, we have to, you know, listen, we have to like get serious about what our ethic in life is, like what are we actually trying to do in this life, you know, like you have to get clear, and my ethic is to reduce harm, right,

against myself and against others, right, like to reduce that harm and understand what harm and violence is, you know, to understand the ways in which I may get in the way of other people getting access to resources that they need to be well happy and safe, like that's what I'm trying to do, and I'm trying to actually become a conduit

to channel more resources that people need into the world, and to become more aware of the ways in which I block people getting what they need. How do you block people? You don't seem like you're blocking anybody from getting what they need. I mean, I just think there are like many ways that we can block people, you know, like we,

and this is, you know, it can be largely unconscious, like sometimes like we have certain views and perspectives that actually get in the way of other people feeling safe and happy and free, you know? I think about so much of the legislation that's happening, which is a prime example of one group of people getting in the way of other people, you know? Like, you know, when we're passing legislation

to censor how we're defining ourselves to legislate bodies, you know, of women and people who, you know, can bear children, right? You know, like you're getting in the way of people having access to what they need to be well and safe. Oh, you're killing people. I mean, this is, this is the, I'm sorry,

and I'm not, obviously these are not, these are my opinions. This is the Christian right. They've been doing this for decades. This is a long-term plan. Our Roe v. Wade is just the beginning. They want a theocracy. I mean, that's, and a lot of the people right now,

there's a lot of like people out there are like, well, it doesn't affect me or all the system. It's like, oh, you don't, you don't get it. You think they're stopping with that? They're not stopping. They've got an agenda, if you ask me, and that agenda is to dissolve the separation of church and state, implement Christian theocracy

in the West, and then start some ridiculous crusade. I'm sorry, I'm just, it's, I can't believe we're watching this, I can't believe we're watching it happen. But yes. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, and it makes sense that it's happening, right? You know, and what we, you know, what we're having to understand is that what's happening now

has nothing to do with freedom. It has everything to do with control and violence, right? Yeah. And I believe that this will not work. Like it's, it's working now, but like this is what we're going to experience are people like radically awakening and saying, what the fuck is happening?

Right. Like, and it's going to be a violent shove for people when they wake up one day and say, what happened to this right that I used to have? And now it's gone and it's going to trigger the fuck out of a lot of people, you know? Yeah. And I believe, I totally believe that's going to happen.

There's going to be a huge shift. And yeah, we're going to have to like really struggle to push through, but we're going to come out on the other end going, okay, let's do something different now because this didn't fucking work. I really hope you're right. I mean, I just, I, I, I'm pretty skeptic. I'm pretty pessimistic regarding, I mean, I just,

I have a friend who explained, broke the whole thing down to me. I don't know if you, I used to, I went through a period of watching these like, they're these, they're these, we're getting a little off of Buddhism. I hope you don't mind, but it's a podcast who cares. So the, there's these movies. I don't know if you've seen them.

My wife and I would watch them on a lark. God's not dead. Yeah. You know, so these movies are funded by mega churches and the money that these movies make is used to try to pass legislation that is into lobby and influence. And this is where, how we've gotten into this predicament is that we're supposed to have a separation of church

and state in this country. It also protects religious people. You don't want the government coming into your house and being like, you can't teach that religion to your child. That's not the religion of the state. You want, you want it separated. But yeah, I don't, I'm very pessimistic about it because I think that people, I don't think it's an accident

that this happened, right? As we're all kind of like wobbly from the pandemic and the, you know, it's a perfect time. We're all just a little confused and like, huh? I don't know, but I'm glad you think that. I think that too, because I don't see it as this kind of relative, I don't see it completely as this relative social struggle.

I also see it as spiritual warfare. And spiritual warfare is happening on multiple levels in multiple worlds at once. So in this world, right? And this is in line with Buddhism, right? You know, in this world, there's an unseen world that's also struggling, you know? And the unseen world, the reality itself,

the universe is an expression of, you know, to use this term light of goodness, right? Like it's on the side, like this, like we're not, we don't live in this reality that's expressing violence, but violence happens and harm happens because like we have misunderstood the nature of things, right? You know, and so on in the unseen world,

and I talk about the unseen world being spirits and, you know, these wisdom beings who are actually working very hard, you know, to align themselves with what's happening in this world, right? So my experience of all of this right now is that there's tremendous help right now. There's a lot of positive energy flooding

into this world right now to rebalance. But you, the system has to break down. You know, and this is systems theory here. It's like the system has to collapse for something new to happen. You can't reform a system that never worked to begin with. Right, right, right. So you scrap it.

And of course that scrapping means that a lot of people are gonna have to suffer like we are now. Yeah. You know? But when the system collapse, then it's like we started asking, but what else now? Because we have been really damaged and hurt

by this old system. Yeah. You know, yeah. And I, thank you for reminding me of that. I just, I get so constricted into, I watch the news too much and I just get so. It's hard. It's hard.

And I have to tell people all the time, it's hard. Like you can't keep consuming the negativity, you know? We have to like consciously choose, you know, what the positive that's happening, right? And again, for me, for me, ancestor practice is really important. I, you know, I'm descendant of African enslaved people and as well as indigenous communities here in the South.

And my ancestor survived slavery and genocide in all forms of violence, right? Yeah. And still maintained hope and joy. They still can maintain their connection to magic and practice and religion and spirituality, right? You know? Yeah.

And I am a practitioner of liberation theology to I believe that God is on the side of those of us who are suffering the most who are the victims. Yeah. And I think that these oppressive structures that like we will balance out again, you know? But things have to like, you know,

we have to just kind of break down, you know? You don't get a resurrection without a crucifixion, right? Exactly. You have to die. Yeah. To be born again. You know, of course mainstream Christianity, you know, really particularly evangelical Christianity,

really just like they took that, that kind of rebirth, you know, language, you know? But like what I'm talking about in this sense is that like all this shit that's not helping us to get free actually has to die. But because we're so identified with this shit is going to feel like we're dying. Ah, right, right, right, right.

It's like I don't know who I am. Like so therefore I don't know that I am not my identity. I'm not my beliefs, you know? And so when those begin to be challenged, then it feels like I, my fundamental being is being challenged. And you have to separate those experiences, you know? But unfortunately before you get to that realization,

everything just has to crash. And then you begin to say, oh, you know what? I wasn't that belief. I wasn't that practice. Yeah. Like there's something deeper. There's a deeper experience of who I am that I'm trying to get to.

And that's what we're moving towards is a social rebirth. And to a deeper relationship to who we are and what we are. What does that look like? How do you, what does that look like in the world? Like, how does that look? What is that? Or, you know, how could we expect this to show up in the world or how is it showing up?

It's already showing up. I think there are people who are just learning how to be more concerned with people around them. That's the first step. It's like, how are people doing, you know? Like, how can I like start actually getting to know my neighbors and then like asking what they need and how can I actually offer

what I have to others around me? That basic concern is the sign, right? You know, and then what are other signs? You know, there are people who two years ago had no idea what, you know, how violent you know, certain institutions like the police are. Right. And now they're like, oh, police historians

and they're understanding violence. They're understanding oppression. They're understanding anti, you know, blackness and so forth. Like, there's a huge group of people who are now educated who are trying to use this knowledge to do something different. That is such an easy thing to forget that a few years ago, this stuff was,

you couldn't find, you had to dig for it to find it unless you were someone who'd been right in the face of it. And now it's become a national conversation, global conversation. Yeah, this is our vocabulary now. Right, right, right. That's huge. Yeah, it's huge.

It's super huge, right? But then like, of course, it can be challenged by all this other stuff that's happening now, you know? And it's like you have to maintain the perspective. Yes, there are things that are getting worse and there are things that are getting a lot better. Like you have, this is again, the heart sutra. Like all this stuff is happening at once, right?

And I can't keep focusing on one thing over the other. Right, that's it, liberation theology. I love it, I love it. It's so, because it's the other one, it's so much louder, it's got costumes that are scary and bombs in the other side, it's like people like you, but it's somehow, I don't know, it takes some discipline, I guess, to tune into it, you know?

Yeah, it's asking yourself what's really happening. Like get to the root, what's really happening? Is this person who's trying to legislate my right to be gay or my kids' right to be gay and trans? Like are they just evil? Or are they just really scared? Or are they really attached to this belief of reality? Are they bad people?

Or are they just not aware of what they're doing? And scared and fearful and using that fear to hide away from allowing people to be free because they actually don't know how to be free themselves. Right. I think one of the things that I, in all this conversation around what people are doing, again, I just think that people are just terrified

of what they don't know and understand because it will disrupt their sense of ego and sense of self, right? And they think that who they think they are in this moment is who they are, you know? And we haven't done the practice, right? To connect to this deeper sense or experience of who we are, you know?

And that's what saved my life. Like this is why I went into a three-year retreat because I was like, I'm black, I'm queer, I'm all this stuff, but like this can't be the totality of who I am. Yeah. You know, because this sucks, you know? Living in an anti-queer, anti-black world. You know, it's just too much.

Who am I? Like what is the nature of me, of I, right? Yeah. And now I can be in the world and not be consumed by the violence directed towards these identity locations that I occupy. I can be free. Like everyone has to do this labor, you know?

Because I want to be free from my identities that are based on suffering as much as my identities that are based upon privilege. Right. I got to be free from both this privilege and privileged identities. Whoa. To let those go.

Wow. That is wild, man. That is so wild. And that's where this idea of crazy wisdom becomes much, much more in focus. It's like once you start divesting from who you think you are or who the world or your culture is telling you who you are,

then you excel into the space where you're not bound by the same restrictions other people around you are bound by. You're not playing by the same rules anymore because you realize there aren't any rules. Oh, shit. And that's freedom. Then we get so afraid when we see people doing that

because they're reminding us that it is actually quite possible to live beyond these regulations but they're also reminding us of how easy these people can be the recipient of violence because they're living outside of the boundaries that we force ourselves to live in. So we get jealous and try to disrupt them. And this is, for me personally, a personal example

is patriarchy, right? This is like patriarchy, anyarchy, right? But patriarchy survives because it retaliates against anyone who blurs, who transcends the set guidelines. You know? Wow, blurs. Patriarchy doesn't like the blur. No.

You can't control the blur. That's like you can't dominate it, you know? And that's why patriarchy, there's this misogyny, right? Because patriarchy views femininity as this blur, as a fluidity, it's not there's something that can't be controlled. But regardless, we're going to control it anyway, you know? We're going to figure out any way

that we can legislate, control, marginalize, oppress. Sinister, sinister, sinister. That's so dark. What's even more sinister is when we're participating in this kind of violence, and we don't even know it, because we just identify it as normal. So normal that we can't even name it anymore.

Right, right, right, like born into the thing. So yeah, it's just this is like, this is the environment. This is what you're born into. It just makes sense, it's the way it is. Yeah, it's like this old story about the fish and the water. Like the fisherman asks the fish, how's the water? And the fish goes, what water? Right, and that's where we are.

It's like, what patriot are you? This is who I am. That's the sinister part about it. This is who I am. But who I think I am is actually an expression of violence and oppression towards other groups of people. And we have to disrupt that and say, you know what? I have to figure out who I am, and I

have to figure out my identities that are not expressions, that are not built on the oppression of others. You know, to me, an illustration of what you're talking about and also an illustration of, I think, how things are getting better, watch any comedy from the 80s. And look at the way being gay was the worst thing. Like it was like you just, gay kids are watching this and with their friends, maybe they haven't come out yet

and they're thinking, my god. I'm that that is being completely rejected in a comedy as a form of healthy, masculine behavior. Now that would never happen. That's never coming out in a movie, ever. No movie, it's not getting made. But we have come a long way, but that's what I came up in. I didn't come up in any kind of open.

There was no conversation about being gay, being something that was healthy or normal or just like anything else. Like if I seemed slightly gay to my dad, he would get pissed, ride a real wheel, like, you're not gay. Are you gay? What's? Man, yeah, it's like, I just don't know.

I think that's one of the good things about some, like I'm almost 50. People coming up now, I don't think they realize how baked in it was. But this is why, also, I'm so optimistic because we have so many young people who are growing up in a context where they have access to all this information and examples, like for me, growing up before the internet.

I didn't use the internet until I was 18 in the college. Until then, I only had what was on TV or what I could find a book on in the library or a magazine. But now, young people just can pick up their phones and have access to any information that they want. And I think this is, of course, it can be quite negative, but the positive part of this is that they have this information and they can choose.

They have choices now because they see other people. They see other ways of being, other ways of doing and expressing themselves. And this is why the younger generation is the generation that's going to really free us. And this is, again, also why I'm passing positive about this because this is the future, like this is the wave, like this wave of fluidity and openness and questioning

and doubting structures of violence. That's what's coming. And what we're experiencing now, I believe, is the last shouts. It's like the last bit of organizing. Like we're going to do everything that we can to solidify this regiment, right? But it's not going to hold up.

Fingers crossed on that one. Fingers crossed. I'm not a llama, didn't spend three years in retreat, so I'm still plagued by fear and doubt. But I think these kinds of conversations remind me, throw cold water on my face, and make me feel connected again. So thank you so much for the time that you've given me and for being so open with me.

And truly, this is a remarkable conversation. I'm very grateful to you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Could you tell people where they can find you? Everyone's going to want to talk to you. Absolutely.

You can find me, my website, Llamarod.com. You can find me on social media, Llamarod Owens, official Llamarod official on Instagram, Llamarod1 on Twitter. My next book, New Saints, is coming out later next year. Maybe we could do another podcast right before your book comes out so we can plug it. And also, you're doing online classes right now, I saw.

Absolutely. Yeah, so I offer online courses. And I also am offering some in-person retreats as well later this year. So all that will be on my website. All the links will be at DuncanTrussell.com. Llamarod, thank you so much. Yeah, thank you.

I had a question. That was Llamarod Owens, everybody. All the links you need to find them will be at DuncanTrussell.com. A big thank you to our sacred sponsors. And a huge thank you to you. Thanks for listening. Come see me live.

Subscribe to our Patreon, patreon.com, forward slash DTFH. And I'll see you next week. Until then, Hare Krishna. We are family. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop, JC Penney. Family get-togethers to fancy occasions, wedding season two.

We do it all in style. Dresses, suiting, and plenty of color to play with. Get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne, Worthington, Stafford, and Jay Farrar. Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in-store. And we're never short on options at jcp.com.

All dressed up everywhere to go. JC Penney. This is the smell of the leftover tuna fish sandwich you left in your lunchbox over the weekend in a wimpy trash bag. Wimpy, wimpy, wimpy. Blech. And this is the smell of that same sandwich

in a hefty ultra-strong trash bag. Hefty, hefty, hefty. Smell the difference? Hefty Ultra-strong has arm and hammer with continuous odor control, so no matter what's inside your trash, you can stay one step ahead of stinky. And for bigger jobs, try the superior strength of hefty large black bags.