Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 540: Melissa McKay

Episode Date: December 2, 2022

Melissa McKay, wonderful meditation teacher, joins the DTFH! If you want to learn more about Melissa, see her upcoming appearances, or check out her class schedule you can find everything you need at MelissaMcKay.net. Melissa is also a senior teacher at insightLA! You can see her upcoming classes there on the insightLA website. Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/duncan and get on your way to being your best self. Lumi Labs - Visit MicroDose.com and use code DUNCAN at checkout for 30% Off and FREE Shipping on your first order! Babbel - Sign up for a 3-month subscription with promo code DUNCAN to get an extra 3 months FREE!

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Oh, and thereabouts for kids. Super cute and extra affordable. Check out the latest in-store, and we're never short on options at jcp.com. All dressed up everywhere to go. JCPenney. Greetings to you, my loves. If you are listening to this the week it came out,

then that means I'm in Hawaii at a Ram Dass retreat. I go to these once a year. Missed last year because of the thing. But if you want to check out the Ram Dass retreat, did you know you can just go to ramdass.org? They're going to be live streaming everything. So if you want to watch me interview some of the wonderful teachers that are going to be at this retreat,

you can find it at ramdass.org. The next few intros are going to be bare bones style intros because I am on vacation. But I'm so happy that you are listening to the DTFH, especially this episode. Some time ago, I went on the legendary podcast of Lex Friedman. And I don't know. I think I was feeling a little despondent about the state

of the world. And I was talking about how I don't know if I would be able to exercise some of the things I like to think I've learned from Buddhism and meditation and getting to hang out with all these Ram Dass people. If I was actually in the situation of someone at war, who had just witnessed horror and lost everything, I got lucky because a wonderful meditation teacher actually

happened to be listening to that episode. She's friends with Trudy Goodman, who you probably know as Trudy the Love Barbarian from the Midnight Gospel. And Trudy gave her my email and she sent me this wonderful message about compassion and Buddhism. And I realized I got to have her on the podcast. So with us here today is Melissa McKay. If you want to connect with her, you can find her at MelissaMcKay.net.

She has been teaching meditation since the 90s. She is a teacher at Insight LA. You know, one of the wonderful things about the modern times that we live in is if you're interested in any of these teachers, they are an email away. And I would really recommend connecting with her if you are looking for somebody to take you a little deeper into your practice.

All the links you need to find her are going to be at DuncanTrussell.com. And now, everybody, please welcome to the DTFH, Melissa McKay. Melissa, welcome to the DTFH. It's great to see you. Great to see you too. Thanks for having me, Duncan. I wanted to start off with a quote from one of your teachers. And the quote is really brilliant. In their quest for happiness, people mistake excitement

of the mind for real happiness. In their quest for happiness, people mistake excitement of the mind for real happiness. What do you think that means? Who said that? This is the problem. I just pasted it and I didn't write it. It's your first teacher. He was the predominant teacher of Vipassana in the world.

What's, you know, his name? That's it. Thank you. I can barely pronounce English names. Yes, that's from him. Excitement in the mind for happiness. Yeah. Yeah, well, you could see that. You know, when we look at the moments that we feel like when our attention isn't

really careful or deep or clear, or so like our regular awareness of what we'll call like the untrained mind, you know, those times, just how we are in the day normally, that we have that kind of anticipatory excitement. But when you calm the mind, you see that it's really a nervous feeling and that there are states that are actually much more satisfying

and deeper and more pleasant, you know, than that kind of anticipatory, excited feeling that we get for something that's going to happen in the future. Maybe that's what sighted Pundit is saying. It sounds like it. A common thing to say these days, if you are looking forward to something or if you're enjoying something is not,

I'm happy, but I'm so excited. I'm so excited. And then within the expression itself seems to be wrapped up. The anxiety that you're talking about is woven. You can literally, in the way people say it, it's not the, it doesn't sound peaceful. It has its own kind of aggressive undertones to it.

I'm so excited. It really does sound like the, not what one might equate with happiness, but in my sweeping judgment of my own species as a perfect individual, and I've spoken with other perfect individuals, many of us perfect individuals have a sense that post-pandemic or, you know,

hopefully the last phases of the pandemic, there is a shared anxiety among people. There is a more of us are encountering out in the wild people losing it, people like blowing fuses publicly. And I mean, there's an entire subreddit called public freak out of just people in grocery stores, just going nuts.

And so I bring up this quote because I wonder, is this, is there something deeper going on than just recovering from being locked down? Is there a possibility that this idea is lost to many people that, meaning people think they're looking for happiness, but what they're really looking for is quote, excitement. So what a disaster if anxiety becomes confused

with happiness. Well, yeah, and, but it's always been the case that that's been, I remember that being very distinct for me early on in my practice, as I started to get more sensitive to myself, which is what mindfulness practice does emotionally, you get more sensitive to what our experiences actually are directly and feeling that,

oh God, being excited is so much just like anxiety, you know, but just with an anticipation of something good rather than an anticipation of something bad, but all of the feelings in the bodies is very, very, very similar. But that's really interesting and I haven't heard that, that you're saying there's all of these kinds of freakout happening.

And is there kind of a residual effect of whatever happened during the lockdown to the virus that actually have an effect on people's brains or something? Yeah, yeah, I don't know. And I have found it particularly hard to, during COVID, it was very easy to teach. And because people were quiet and the distractions

were removed, it was so nice and that way, you know? Yes. And they had an interest, they were suffering as we do whenever something happens that is unexpected or we don't get what we want or all of those things. There's always a benefit to those kinds of life situations which are inevitably gonna happen to all of us anyways, but they were really easy to teach

and now it's feeling a little bit more difficult to get people to get centered and calm. So I find that fascinating that there's this freakout thing that's happening among people. You know, do you buy into the note, like the ages, the yugas, do you buy into, you know, in the spiritual communities inevitably, someone will brush, not brush off,

but as a kind of general explanation for what the world as it is, they'll go, it's the Kali Yuga, we're in the age of disintegration we're in the age of collapse. These are all things that were prophesized and this is what we're in. And I do subscribe to that theory. I don't know if that's an a historic way of looking at things.

I'm sure like if we jump back 500 years, 1,000 years, but the yugas are very long, but if we jump back further back, it would probably seem equally chaotic, but sometimes I think to myself, oh, this is compounding. Like, you know, in Buddhism, there's this beautiful analysis prescription for why, if you're feeling this thing,

the shared quality that is they call suffering dukkha, here's why you're feeling it. And the why, I'm gonna butcher it, but how do you just say why? But it has something to do with like, you're trying to scratch an itch that, you know, that in the wrong part of your body, it's like, what a disaster if you're head itched

and you were trying to like scratch your leg, disaster. And then the intensity of the scratching can like grows or the method or that's, okay, I'll get a better scratching tool. Clearly the tool is, but it's no, you're scratching the wrong place. But if this were to compound over time, my God, I mean, it is disastrous, apocalyptic even, you know,

it's a, I know that in Buddhism, you don't run into the cool eschatological stuff you run into and like some of the other religions, but what a prescription for apocalypse, a shared confusion regarding what happiness is and how to find happiness. And it's, but remember, it's always been true. It feels like it's heightened to you now, huh?

And maybe it is, and maybe it's part of this communication that we're able access to everything, access to pleasure, access to, you know, I mean, the fact that we can just play any music that we want to at any time, that is a very distinct experience. You know, that's just like a question we can have, you know, fruits from South America, we can have cheese from whatever, you know,

and wines from here, it's just like everything is at our fingertips and we're seeing that and it's aggravating because it's not, it's not actually, you know, building anything that's making us really complete or happy. So, but I, and I like those predictions and it does seem real, you know, all of the people with their psychedelic experiences

having these kinds of different kinds of understandings and real to me that there's an awakening happening at this particular time. Is that what the Kali Yuga thing means? Or that it's- Well, I think like after the Kali Yuga, the Matreya, the idea is that the next Buddha appears, but you've got to get through the Kali Yuga

to get to the Buddha, unfortunately, and it's not like a, it's not a nice hike. Yeah, yeah. So the prophecy that I've heard that's within the Theravada tradition and it might be similar to Tibetan tradition is that this particular dispensation, Sasana, they call it, of the Buddhist teachings,

this Sakyamuni Buddha will last 5,000 years. So we're kind of halfway through that. And what will happen is fully enlightened beings will disappear from the planet and each time, and then third stage enlightenment will then disappear and then second stage and then first stage, will disappear each- There's stages?

I'm sorry, after you describe this, I really want to go through the stages of enlightenment. Okay, good, yeah. There's lots of reading you can do on that too. I'll try to give a little intro to it, but once those beings start to disappear, then it's kind of like Eckhart Tolle called free beings, kind of frequency holders.

Like they keep us, you know, we might not even see them, but still they're affecting the being. But ethical behavior is supposed to decline. Life expects expectancy is supposed to go down to 10 years old for humans. Yeah, and then the dispensation will die and then that's when myotry or metaya is the holy word for the metaya Buddha will come.

Who's supposed to have an emphasis of metha, practice of metta, of loving kindness. Wow, so the next Buddha is going to be like 10 or 80%. No, no, no, because there will be a reemergence, I think before, but that's a good question. From my understanding, no, like good things will start happening on the earth to enable the Buddha to come.

It could be like 80,000 years from now, but you know, yeah. Yeah, a long time, it could be, who knows? I mean, look, again, like all of these things, I love these wondering over these things, but generally like, I know whenever I'm wondering over these things, I'm just trapped in my mind again. I'm doing like karma math, I'm doing yoga math.

You know, what is this, truly, if you're like trying to find some peace or happiness, it's not calculating like what part of the Kali Yuga you're in. It's still good conversation though, because people that have come to see these things have done so through generating a powerful mind of concentration that enables them to see

neither different people's minds. I mean, the cities or the psychic powers are a real thing. Have you ever read the Deepama book or know about Deepama? Oh, you'll love Deepama. She's an interesting Buddhist teacher. Jack knew her. I've heard of her. I've never read the book.

Oh yeah, but then in that, you can see what can happen. This is kind of Buddhist magic, but it's not magic. It's natural, super natural. The capabilities of our minds are much more than we tap into in our regular awareness, you know? And what makes them strong is concentration, symbol-pointed awareness where distractions are gone and then the hindrances and afflictions are gone

and at that point we become much more powerful beings and there's a lot of different kinds of possibilities walking through walls and walking on water. Jesus did it, you know? And apparently, I wasn't there, apparently. Yeah, it's almost as though I've got a lot. I mean, look, we can get lost in my theories on what that might be, but you know,

if you had an observer effect or something, you would expect that, you know, if what they're saying now, there's some like relationship between attention and matter, then you would expect that if that attention shifted, then your experience of matter would probably change with it simultaneously. Oh, well said, really, really nicely said, yeah. Oh, thanks, yeah, well, who knows?

You know, who knows? I can't wait to walk through walls. You don't have to have fun watching my experience. That sounds fun. How great, you don't have to look for doors anymore, you just, you're out, just as long as you're on the first floor, your teeth are great, because, you know, you walk through walls,

but can you like manifest steps? That's the question. Well, you could, because you could change any, you know, the world, the material world is made up of the elements, and so apparently, I haven't tried it yet. I may still, I might, it takes a lot of effort though. How do you know?

That's a good, you know, how do you know until you go walk into a wall? It's like, when was the last time you walked into a wall? Honestly, I haven't in a long time. Well, well, you know, they're made up that we've got the earth element, so you can change one element into the other element with that psychic power.

So you can, out of air, you can build an earth element, and if you read the description of what Deepa Ma was supposed to do, was supposed to be able to do, it's very, very fascinating. But you're listening. Oh, yeah, I mean, and the frustrating thing about, and what I love about Buddhism in particular is, because this is a thing, thank God,

that has been around for a long time, and because it's real, and because of many people devoting their lives to it generationally, there's maps, there's good maps, and within that, there's also an understanding of how to deal with perhaps the sudden appearance of what you're talking about, which I think for someone who is practicing

and has a great teacher, I think it can be a little unsettling to suddenly have even the slightest vision of these possibilities, and within that, oh my God, what a joy for the ego, my God, if I can walk through walls, I'm gonna add that to my act, wait till the audience sees me walk through a wall.

I don't know if it'll get a laugh, but it'll definitely be cool. And then, so within, it seems like worked into the process is a way to not get too trapped in those various cities that they talk about could potentially emerge. Yeah, exactly, and that's what you would get for your listeners, that the book is Deepa Ma, and somebody tested her ability back in the 80s

to be able to do these things, which she apparently demonstrated, she would never laugh, when she had the wisdom to know she would never perform them to gain something personal, attention or recognition. And even me, if I was ever able to develop those,

I would never perform them for recognition because it isn't the point of practice, the point of practice is for the alleviation or eradication of dukkha and stress. Yes, and maybe this is why it's kind of worked into it is a, as Chugham Trump has said, disown it, just okay, fine, whatever, you turn into a rainbow, great. Well, you still have a mortgage.

So, they're not gonna, they don't care. Turning into a rainbow will not make the banks be like, oh, you turn into a rainbow, okay, we'll skip this month's payment. But also turning into rainbow is a temporary state, so it's also stressful, and anything that is temporary is stressful. So, we're still talking about stress.

And as mindfulness, as our mindfulness, which just means our awareness of ourselves increases, we incline our mind towards that deeper kind of happiness that we started this conversation. This episode of the DTFH has been sponsored by better help. Friends, get therapy. You know, speaking of these Ram Dass retreats, when I asked Ram Dass for a bit of spiritual advice,

hoping he would say some mystical thing to me, he says, get therapy. And it's actually one of the main things I ignored that he taught me until finally I did it. I got into therapy and it truly changed my life. This meditation stuff is incredible, but there are some things that need the help of a professional.

And I am a massive advocate for therapy, which is why I'm thrilled that the podcast is sponsored by the wonderful folks over at Better Help. If you are getting that feeling that you would like to find a great therapist, Better Help is definitely the way to go. It's the world's largest therapy service. It has matched three million people

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No waiting rooms, no traffic, no endless searching for the right therapist. You can learn more and save 10% off your first month at BetterHelp. That's H-E-L-P.com slash Duncan. Better H-E-L-P.com slash Duncan. Thanks for sponsoring the show, Better Help. I'm curious about your thoughts regarding boundaries.

Not like psychological boundaries or healthy relationship boundaries, but rather boundaries between the confused mind or the untrained mind and the non-confused mind. And I'm curious just your thoughts on that. Like if you were to see the sort of spectrum of consciousness and the potential of the expansion of the circumference of self-awareness, what separates enlightenment

from monkey mind? Is there even a separation? Or are the thoughts themselves repetitive? It was Jack puts it, what does he say, the top 10 like repetitive thoughts? Someone actually just did a study. It was really depressing. We think the same things like 80% of the time, just this loop.

You don't need one day on of a personal retreat and you'll see that. You don't need a study. Got a skipping neurotic record. But I'm curious, where does that stop? Where does it stop? And what is the liminal space between that and what one might call expanded awareness

or a deeper way of experiencing one's reality? One of my teachers told me one of my main teacher, Bonte Kipapeno, who's a monk. And he has a monastery just in Riverside, California. And he's 94 years old now. And he's one of the most profound beings. I've sent a lot of Westerners to him. And they don't tend to stick around for him.

He's very subtle and he's really humble. And I find sometimes Westerners don't like that. But they miss the people. We want a light show. Yeah. And Pat, Pat, one of my backs had it a lot. Or maybe they think that because he's Asian, the Asians are just more like that.

If they saw somebody moving with the grace that he did that were more familiar, I'm not sure. I'm not sure why. But anyways, he's a really profound monk. And he continued to practice from the time he was 15 when he became a monk all the way until now. So I enjoy watching him.

But one time he told me a fully enlightened being. And we're going back to those four stages of enlightened, a fully enlightened being. So an arhat thinks only when they intend to think. That's awesome. Isn't that awesome? Yes. Yes.

Wow, cool. Mastery of the mind, right? Complete mastery. Only any people. Intro. Like it's an app. Because we don't understand the busyness of our mind. Think about that and then that and that and that.

We're driving, but we're actually rehearsing something that we're going to do later. Or we're anticipating a worst case scenario. Or we're hating ourselves in some way or doubting ourselves in some way. And these stories, these stories, as we're just driving. Imagine that we start to see with vipassana, with mindfulness.

We see that's an energy stuff that takes away. It does something. It's consequential on our nervous system. So we can't even envision what the freedom of that is like in our regular awareness. But that is what meditation can give for us, is to clear away that. And then we start to see, wow, the mind that is directed,

that is to have mastery of the mind is a glorious thing. You hear all this stuff. Fundamental goodness, emptiness. What's the difference between a thought and fundamental goodness? Or what is the difference between an emptiness? Is there a difference between a thought and emptiness? In your own experience, with emptiness and with thinking,

if you had to differentiate the two, what's the difference? Emptiness as a concept isn't used in teravada practice so much, which is where I was trained and have come from. That's why I kind of don't understand what the reference is when they're, except for injonic practices, of seeing the inherent. Empty is not a word I would use. It's just not a word that I would use.

It's a confusing word. It's a confusing word. To me, it's a confusing word. But to others, that it is not a confusing word. I mean, that's the thing about words, is that people hold them differently, but they're meaningful in different ways for different people. The difficulty of teaching is trying

to explain something that is not explainable with these words. May I rephrase the question? Yeah. If the mind is, or what we call the mind, is a thought container. Meaning that your thoughts are appearing within what many people perceive as the container of identity yourself, or that's me, or my, for my label, which is my head.

What is the difference between the thought forms that appear and the space defining the container itself, whether it's, you want to say, your head, your identity? What are the difference? What's the difference between the two? Is there a difference? So, and there's two minds, right? We have the knowing mind, or consciousness,

what we call consciousness, the aware mind. And then there's mind objects, thoughts or objects of the mind. And so, their appearance comes. There's another thing that happens of identity with a thought when we're believing it. That's mind. I am thinking that. I believe that, what I'm thinking.

That's kind of a different process of the mind. So, as even not, if a fully enlightened person thinks only when they intend to think, when you're like a first stage enlightened person, or a second stage or whatever, or even if you're just meditating, because an aware mind is a moment of that full enlightenment, then there is, there's not identifying with the thoughts. I mean, it can be on a very subtle level,

but the moment that you know that you're thinking, there's a break in the identification process. You're not just wrapped up in the thought itself, believing the thought itself. And then what's most important is not to get rid of thoughts, but what did the Buddha say is that we're trying to cultivate usala, what? Usala is mostly translated as wholesome or skillful,

which is a word that I've never loved. But what it's really pointing to is those kinds of thoughts that lead towards, and this we can taste in our direct experience. And that's the most important place to taste it, not to think about it, not to theorize about it, who really tastes me. And the Buddha said that when you see these things

as unwholesome, when you yourself, not because somebody told you, not because it was written in a book, not because the teacher seems like he's pretty awesome or whatever, but when you yourself see this is not worthy of my attention, then abandon it. When you yourself see this is beneficial, this is helpful.

So that's what wholesome means, those things that we can taste in our experience. So I often ask my students in class to clarify the definition of this word. What is a mind state that you know is not helpful to you? What do you experience as a mind state that is not helpful? And they'll say worry or they'll say self-hatred or they'll say fear or they'll say anger,

you can feel it, you can taste it. And afterwards you have remorse when you act on those things. You know, it doesn't, not onward leading that phrase. Onward leading, that's cool, onward leading. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I like that a lot. Trump is to make a distinction between setting sun, rising sun, which I think might be a similar way of sort of,

you know, when the sun's coming up, you know, when the sun's coming down, it's simple as civil can be. Because we have to be careful in our, and I don't know if it's particularly culturally, but I think it is Western culture. We really have to be careful with puritanical kind of thinking of good and bad

and right and wrong and judgmental and within Buddhist psychology. And what is Buddhism? All it is is, you know, the Buddha said apparently, I teach one thing to one thing, only stress in the end of stress. That's what it is. There's no belief.

There is a cosmology. We were talking about it a little bit. There are these other abilities in that, but it is just a practical psychological tool really. And it's working with the mind and alleviating the mind from the causes of suffering, which are very powerful in all of us. And that first noble truth,

that there is dukkha in the world, is just pointing to the fact that you look around. I did this in my Sunday class. I said, just this morning, if you could reflect on your morning, what is something that you experienced that was stressful? And for me, I had felt, I was playing pickleball and I felt nervous.

I woke up kind of grumpy. You know, I had three different mind states just that day that were stressful. And so everybody shared, they all had the same. And it was really beautiful because everybody feels so trapped and alone in that. Feel like it's a particular problem to them. And that's what that first noble truth is

to alleviate that, this is me, this is mind. No, this is just what we get as humans. This, what you described in the mind and all of the negative mind states that come with that. But the important thing is there's a cure for it. Well, nobody wants that really. I mean, the great meditation teachers like you, so good at like, you understand.

And I think the reason you understand is because you've been through many of these phases. I don't know what phase of enlightenment you might be. Most meditation teachers don't really get into that at all. You know, diagnosing themselves as like, I'm in three C, enlightened being or whatever, which we appreciate on the other side of the fence. But, and I like that you're replacing suffering with stress.

It's easier for people to understand. Sufferings of, stress we get, suffering, what does that even mean? Like, well, like you get stuck in a trap or something. I've never been stuck in a bear trap. That when I picture suffering, I think of a wild animal in a trap, you know? So it's hard for me,

but you're in a wild animal in a trap. The trap looks like what you're talking about. Yeah. Except the problem being like wild animals, they're not born in these traps and humans are not born in the traps, but our memory banks don't record the pre trap situation. So we begin to associate the trap with who we are.

We paint the trap, we tell stories about the trap, take pictures of the trap, find other people with the same trap, go out drinking with them, dancing with them, marry them, have children with them, and then give the traps to our children. You're gonna wear the trap, your father wore. What is this new trap?

This is ridiculous. But I want to, I wanna point something out to me that I think gets left out. And I get why. This is an apocalypse. You're the, Buddhism, I get it. It's the, if your trap is your identity,

we're talking apocalypse. And the, in the sense of like, this is even a glimpse as I'm sure you've had of life minus the trap, just a glimpse. You know, they talk about the possibility of realizing, you know, this thing that you have thought is real, it's not quite as real as you might have thought. In fact, there's no trap there.

It's the worst kind of imaginary friend. It's not even there. And if you get one, not an intellectual, like I think I know what you mean, but an actual for a second, the transparency of it all. Whoa, whoa. It sounds like you've had that glimpse. I hesitate to report spiritual progress.

Cause inevitably it means I'm about to get in a fight with my wife. It's like, right when I think that I'm like, I did it. It's like, no, so I will not report it. I'm just, It's not a claiming of the forever state, you know. The glimpses are so important. They're so important.

I see you how they might be, but we started our conversation offline talking about clinging. And I really loved the email you sent me and I spent a long time thinking about it. And upon realizing for a second this other possibility, the life without stress thing. And then not just realizing it intellectually,

or you hear people like you talking about it, or you see someone who for whatever reason doesn't seem like they're on fire all the time. Yeah. You have some faith or something, but then for a second you're like, okay, now look, look at your life now. What about this?

There's no stress. You're not freaking out. You've been freaking out for two decades straight. You've been freaking out for two decades straight. Why have you been freaking out? You've been freaking out because you're addicted to freaking out. You are so infested in the freak out

that it has become like when you go to the dentist and they're like, oh my God, it's calcified shit all over your teeth. And then you realize, what? I don't wanna let go. That's what I wanna talk about. I don't wanna let go. Don't know how to function in that world.

It's a different world. And in fact, I don't exist in that world. And can you speak to that level of neurosis? Are there people who glimpse phase one enlightenment and are like, you know, I'm gonna pass. I think I'm just gonna walk around with a trap. No, not at first stage of enlightenment. That's when you, no, no, no.

But that part's not important. It's too theoretical. But the other part of clinging and our original email, it's really important to see. I mean, I didn't like the, I didn't, I heard something in your conversation with Lex that felt familiar to the way I kind of, the part of Buddhism that didn't excite me.

And then as I continued on in my practice, I started to realize the parts that weren't exciting me were because I wasn't understanding the concepts directly. I was misunderstanding the concepts. So, and many people do this idea of the translation of the word is upadana, translated very often as attachment. And another translation is clingy.

And so many people come across that and they feel like, well, if I'm not attached to the people that I love, then how is that, you know, what exists in free of attachment and sounds very cold, it sounds callous, it doesn't sound interesting at all. Spock, Vulcan, spock, it sounds spock. Yeah, exactly, exactly. Which is not at all the case.

When we look very closely, and again, this is best understood in everybody's direct experience, not in my explanation of it. But when we look really closely, so I'm just pointing to everybody's hearts now, that we're all the same, is that we attach in these various ways, the Buddha never even mentioned people that we attached to.

But the definition, I brought it up because I thought, but the definition of upadana, the different kinds of clings we do, we attach to things being pleasant, particularly at the sense store. So there's other kinds of pleasure that we experience, but sensual pleasure, touch, you know, smell all of our five senses,

or six sense being that of the mind. So what happens when we're in a relationship with anybody, whether a spouse or a child, and we want it to be a pleasant experience, nobody provides that for us all the time, you know. Our relationships are gonna be unpleasant at different times, whether they smell bad, or they look bad, or whatever, you know.

So cleaning is so easy to see how that creates harm within a relationship, and actually prevents us from really loving them, from seeing them as a precious human being. And in fact, those two things are mutually exclusive. I think I saw a quote from Osho that said that, that attachment and love are mutually exclusive, and they're not existent in the mind at the same time.

We can go back and forth between feeling attached, and then loving, and da, da, da, da, da, da, da. Because the mind moves that quickly, but when we're attached, we're pretty blinded to another being. We were like, I want this to be pleasurable, and then now it's gone away. Now I'm resenting the person, you know, like a lot of things can compound on top of that.

And then the other way of attaching us to our ideas about them. So even if we, and I hope this doesn't sound callous or vulcan either, but even if we want somebody to be, we clean to the ideas, right? Now I've had a very difficult couple of weeks, because my brother, who was living with me, had a series of seizures, and he's been in the ICU unconscious for the last,

sorry, and not regaining consciousness. And so, you know, the attachment is, my ideas of how things should be right now. And of course that could be a stress. And we're gonna do that still, only fully enlightened people don't do that. So it's not to shame this idea of cleaning an attachment, but to become very familiar and intimate with it,

aware of it when it's present in us, and learning how to sit with it's suffering, and we do that, it doesn't stay as long, you know? We can process the grief or the non-acceptance or the resistance of reality that we're going through, because we learn to sit with that feeling of, meaning it should be like this. So to ideas, we're cleaning to ideas.

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The reality is where this person is, my brother is right now. The state in condition that he is right now. Oh my God. That is, this is not... Stuff has happened to me. My first response is, I just think this isn't fair. I got to negotiate here.

Who do I talk to? Do you have a manager? Is there a manager I could talk to here? This is ridiculous. Who's running this? Are you, it's me. You don't do this to me. You're doing this to me.

That's my mom. You don't give my mom cancer. Who am I talking to? This is insane. How is this? This is as unfair as unfair. Man, I get just smashed and then you just end up like one of those, you know, you see the bird trapped

in the house and it's so sad. Smashing into the window, smashing in the window. The window is, the bird doesn't meditate enough for it to fly right through. But it's, it's, you know, it's, it's so sad. And then that's how I react to, to what you're talking, events at that level. That's my go-to is this isn't fair.

I deserve better than this. Are you kidding me? And I get mad. I get mad. Exactly. And that's human. And, and so our job at this level that we are at now is, it's not to say, well, don't do that.

You're just creating more suffering when you do that. But what mindfulness is, is not shaming that part of ourselves, but really being able to sit with that as an internal reality. You know, we've got the external reality, the internal reality denies it. And once we do, we start to see this isn't changing anything that's making us suffer a lot, a lot more.

And then, and then, and then so we wake up and mature more and then we can more accept the realities that light doesn't want to do what we want it to do. It's easier to be angry. I mean, it's easier, it feels easier to be angry than to sit with that heartbreak. You know, heartbreak is all sweet. It's vulnerable.

It's just love. It's, it's, it's a, it's like when it's a baby smiling at you when you sit with it long enough. And, but the baby is, it's like, I don't want the baby to be dealing with this. And then, so this is to keep, and I am sorry that you're going through this. And I appreciate you coming on the podcast

as you're going through something like this. What I love about Vipassana as I understand it, which I don't think is a very clear understanding, is this invitation to go to that place to like, you know, open, open the door, go, go in the room. And the, the room of the room that you've been, a lot of us have been like actively, aggressively avoiding. And,

went from, from me glimpses of recognizing that the thing I thought was the worst thing seems to be the best thing about me. Or the best thing I've ever been, I can't, you can't believe it. You can't, it seems ridiculous that this thing actually, your whole life you've been running away from this gift that is inside of you.

That's what Vipassana practice does, it is just shedding of the layers. And you really do feel like you get down to something that was so familiar and somehow forgotten. That's the sense of it. And then of course, so rich and satisfying and deep, you know, deeply satisfying, deeply, deeply satisfying. But Vipassana is just an exploration of our consciousness.

And it's the only tool to do it, you know. It's got this word that is a language we don't understand, but it's near to all of us. It's not a Buddhist thing. It is a, it's a reality. It's a way of exploring consciousness because you can't, as Mathuricard said, you can't look at, doctors can't measure, look at,

they know nothing about consciousness. There's no tool or instrument to look at consciousness. And the only way to do that is in the first person. And so that's, that's what Vipassana does. Let's look at sadness, let's look at grief, let's look at this body and sensation and emotion and feeling and the way the mind and the body are connected. And so Vipassana is called insight meditation

because these are the insights. If you have insights, these aren't Buddhist insights, they're, they're insights into nature. So the translation of Vipassana is to see nature. We're just looking at reality and the reality of thought, you know, explore it. What are thoughts? Look at them.

If you want to know the mind, sit down and look at it, that we're ninja, I think, that's the only way to do it. And Vipassana is a technique and a tool to do that. We have to sustain the mind and the intention and concentration so that it is able to see things on a more subtle level. We have a, you know, a real scattered mind. We're only seeing things on a grosser level.

But once concentration comes there, the mind can start to perceive things on a deeper level. You can, you know, hear a sound and see it right through the, I mean, sometimes like a psychedelic will help you to heighten the senses to be able to... I've heard that. Yes. This...

So that's what it is and it alleviates stress because you're looking at, in the mind, what is the cause of stress? And it's a reality for everybody. And it's a universal truth that we start to see. Just like if we jump into the ocean, we know that other people will get wet from the water because we have when we did it, right?

And so same in the mind, we start to see these things of the universal, you know, what is the cause of stress? And the universal truth. So necessary for you to go on of the Plotten Meditation Retreat. I got kicked out of the last one. I'm not allowed to go. I'm banned from all the Plotten Meditation Retreats.

What did you do? Walked through a wall into the ladies' bathroom. I didn't know it was there. I just learned to walk through a wall. I did not mean to do it, but they were like... And then I tried to walk back out because I was freaked out or whatever. I just slammed into the wall.

So nobody believed me. They thought I was a creep or something, you know? So then, yeah, they're like, you're banned. You can't do it. I do want to go. My wife is like, you know, we have kids. So like finding the space to do it and everything. You know the old story,

but my wife is really encouraging me to do it, which is awesome because it means she's gonna be out of contact with me for I think 10 brutal days. Yeah. But I am interested. I'm really interested in the... I feel like I have noticed that all the rotten emotions that I was experiencing and trying to avoid

are not quite as rotten as I thought they were. And then because of that, I'm not freaking out as much, which is great. But I'm interested in this because I'm just... And the reason I keep asking you these annoying questions about the boundary between this and that is just because I'm fascinated by the...

And I love what Menundra said regarding, look, just go look at it. Don't ask me. You want to know what the Mona Lisa looks like. Go to the Louvre, but when you're talking... Disappointing! But when you're talking to someone who is trained, I feel like it's important to kind of get some ideas

regarding like... What is thinking regarding like the content of pain or the content of suffering or the components of what one might call stress? And similarly with boredom, we all say we're bored. No one... Like, what is boredom? Define it for me.

So how if you had to define stress? Not just as like, it's a shitty feeling, but what is it to you? I think it's a shitty feeling is the best definition of it. I really think so. Because what does it say in the First Noble Truth that Buddha said, birth is stress, right? Did you see your wife get birth?

Yes. Yeah, so you saw the stress. That's Duka. There's some pain and suffering there. Oh, for her, I don't know. I wasn't paying attention. For me, it was very stressful. And being separated from those we love is stress,

things happening that we don't want to happen, not getting what we want, getting what we don't want. Causes. Causes. Can you like, let's say, and again, it's like describe red. That's an annoying question. But if you had to describe, and not red as well, it's the color of blood.

But describe suffering to me, or I'm sorry, stress to me, from the perspective of someone who has done countless hours of meditation. How, I'm an alien. I come from the best planet ever. We don't know what stress is. Describe it to me. What, not the causes.

What is it? Yeah. Thoughts in the head and feelings in the body that are unpleasant and uncomfortable. And so when we're feeling stressed, that's all that's happening. There's thoughts in the head that are stressful. And then that in itself would be a fine thing,

because it doesn't hurt that much mentally. It's when it comes into our bodies, they don't know the feeling and the sensation that it experiences. It makes us feel sick, or tight, or just pretty much not well, not clear, not happy, not content. Is that a good description?

But you know it well, you've experienced it daily. You're probably experiencing it on some level right at this moment. Tightly, I'm gonna throw out a few, then you throw a few back to me, like a party game. Tightly coiled anaconda wrapped around heart chakra. Or, or. You're much better with that than I am.

You're so good with descriptive words, that's great. It's so dense, it's tight, it's, you know, the classic is just like diaper rash, except it's in your soul. Your soul has diaper rash, or whatever your soul's hanging out in is. It's a rashy ache that is unremitting, unrelenting. Like that, can you give me a few

from your own experience with that? I just love that you're doing that, because it's so helpful to people that would follow you and listen to your podcasts, and whatever successes you've had in the world, and the friends that you keep, you know, you're so cool, all of these kinds of things, what people get disconnected from is that, you know,

and it's so great, and I've learned this as a teacher too. I assume that people know that I'm full of all that stuff that you just described, but they don't. And so it really is, as a teacher, it's a new learning, that I have to share that with people. I have to share that I experience these things because it really helps people to not shame themselves when they are going through that experience,

or to think now that they're a Buddhist, they should no longer be having these kinds of experiences, the lust, and the craving, and the anger, and the rage, and all of those things, and just the pain of it all. Shame we can do without in our spiritual practice. Such a hindrance to our spiritual practice. We have to let that one go. And that is a great healer.

What you're doing right now, I'm sharing that with people, is very helpful. So just see, this is the first noble truth. Pain and suffering, pain and suffering. Yeah. Expert. Expert on the first noble truth. That's where it stops. So if you're ever giving a class, I could come in for the very first part, and that's it.

That's not true. You've seen the alleviation of stress. You have to. I have, yeah. But that's a thrilling thing, and you know, I'm lucky. I work with David Nickturni, he's an amazing teacher, and he so knows me so well that he understands like my grasping mind really wants to like kind of retire after sitting in a hotel and having a fleeting glimpse

of something that I've been hearing about for a long time. But I just am really interested in the, I guess I'm getting too detailed. I'm just very interested in the quantum properties of suffering, the, you know, what are we talking about here? I mean, we are talking about the engine of war. We're talking about the coal that starts all the fires that cause all the problems.

And so little is being, we know how to split an atom. That's incredible. We're about to have fusion, but what about the fundamental cause of the reason we need fusion reactors now? It's cause we want so much that we got to keep things moving. The reason we want to split the atom because we want more energy or want to kill a bunch of people.

The impulse behind it is this annoying anaconda thing. So I am curious about it and really curious about your thoughts on what, why is it that when you stop running away from it and just put your attention on it, why is it that it changes into something not so bad or nothing at all? What's happening there?

What is this relationship? Can you tell me what this is? What's going on here? The difference between delusion and seeing clearly, that's it, that's delusion always, the not seeing of the suffering that makes it perpetuate. We don't see it. So what did Buddha say whenever,

you know, Mars, the personification of all of these afflictive states or whatever he would say, just very simply and I think compassion and MRI see you. And so that's what we're doing when we practice mindfulness practice is just seeing, I wasn't looking at this before, we're not looking, we're not aware of ourselves in life when it's happening, which is in the present moment.

We're constantly thinking about something else as much good or bad, but we're right or wrong, but it does perpetuate stress, you know. And so the seeing of it, we see the futility of the mind which we're living in all of the time. And that's really unnerving for people to hear how very frequently,

that's what a repost in a retreat will do too, is go, I am crazy. That's what I hear. That's what I hear. That's what I hear. But it's not why that I'm crazy. It is this human experience that it's, you know, and the thinking mind that perpetuates.

And of course we have beauty in that and that's what it clarifies. That's what clarified from mindfulness practice. It automatically recedes and reduces the negativity of the mind, all of the afflictive states and the neurosis. That's how it came to me. That word felt very real to me on an experience I had. And this is just a neurosis, you know.

And we have all the other beautiful things. We help each other. I have felt so much empathy coming in my direction from this experience I've been having with my brother, you know, like we connect, there's support, there's love, there's human connection, which is not the same as attachment. And generosity and those things grow.

So it's not about annihilating everything, but growing, the Buddha said, cultivate the good. It is possible for you to cultivate the good. If it weren't possible, I wouldn't tell you to do so. If this cultivating of the good were to bring you suffering, I wouldn't tell you to do so, but because it needs to benefit and pleasure, therefore I say to you, cultivate the good.

So that's what the word bhavana, which is the translation of, we translate as meditation, means, it means to cultivate. So meditation is just habituating the mind towards things that are on with you. And every mind is filled with this kind of self-perting mechanism. We're all doing it in useless, futile

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Be creative. Keep learning with C llegar ti. Hey, we're all doing this. Useless, euthyled with a way that the mind perpetuates within us confidently. Well, I mean, and then this is where it's really interesting, doesn't it? Like, oh, you identify that now you go to war with your mind. Now what you do is you break your mind into two pieces.

It's like, OK, here's the non cultivated bad part of the garden. Now here's the good part of the garden. I'm going to start supplying weapons to the good part of the garden. We're going to. This is where, you know, in the psychedelic community, someone needs to start working with language because how many psychonauts do you hear who obliterated, destroyed, shattered, crushed their ego?

All the languages, the word, the way they describe their experience is like, why would you do that to yourself? I understand that. But, you know, again, we're going back to language there. And that those words are used in. It what it what it depends is if that word brings up a version for you, which it did for me. Saitu Pandita was a big teacher about going into battle over it,

and it would bring up anger in me. I thought I had to use. But we have to understand that the weapons that we use in this battle are compassion, their loving kindness, their awareness of self. And when we we get used to using those weapons, then the then crushing and obliterating and annihilating. Those words don't. They're they're a bit more meaningful, but we do have to be careful

because you do have to go in with and even the ideas of good and bad and right and wrong are not good. It's what leads to stress and what does not cause an effect. There's a cause and effect. That's an observable law in this universe called karma translated as karma or karma. You know, but it's observable, observable. You can see that the mind is the forerunner of all things. When we think, actors speak from a certain mind state, it's consequential.

And we can change that. That's changeable. So all my mundane way of understanding it is. I'm friends with a bunch of comedians. Some of them are known as like their roast comedians, meaning they have. Perfected the ability to analyze someone and say the cruelest, funniest thing you've ever heard, but the only reason they can do it. And have the audience like them is because behind it is love.

And when a comedian is getting roasted, they laugh. It's not a fake laugh. It's because they there's a comrade weird camaraderie there at the moment. People are doing that as comedians, and that's not there. They lose instant lose the audience. They don't like it. No one wants to see someone get savaged and their feelings hurt. So, yeah.

So, but I know what you mean by this kind of like compassionate wrathfulness that there when there's love behind it, it works. But when there isn't, yeah, it's just it's just going to throw up someone's defense mechanism. So maybe what maybe in the identification of the. The untamed, uncultivated mind. There's a possibility to be. Loving to that part of oneself, but for me, yeah, yeah, yes.

I had to incline my mind in that way, but I had to stop using the anger and everything as I heard these battle analogies. I was like, oh, that's not effective. And and I've had teachers that are really good at seeing you, you know, watching your motivation. It will creep in sometime or greed will creep in. We want we're trying to achieve something spiritually. And that's an interference in our practice also, you know,

greed and hatred as the motivating factor is not it's not good. So it just takes an inclination. OK, kindness and kindness. But I love that you said that about comedians, too. And I feel like I've always been a big fan of comedy from the time I was a little kid. And what I love about it is the ability to laugh at and point out the absurdity, those are the great composite of this human existence.

Yes. Yeah. I mean, yes. And when it's done, right, it's, you know, it's I just saw a great comedy show last night and it's like, I still am just so happy just from the experience of like, whoa, just seeing that is really nice. But let me pat myself on the back some more for being a comedian. I I do you have a little bit more time. I know you've you. I can't believe you gave me an hour of your time right now.

If I've been more aware of what I wish I could help. I'm the worst at like, I don't know how to respond to things like that. I don't I know you're not supposed to say I'm sorry. But then you're not supposed to, you know, there's all these things you're not supposed to do. Who's that? I don't know. I read it somewhere. Don't say you're sorry. So I don't know what else to say.

Like, Jesus, that sucks. You don't have to. Glad I'm not you. Yeah, yeah, me too. I'm glad I'm not me where. OK, and I'm going to shut up about the stupid boundary thing. What is the action of self compassion? Who is being compassionate to who here?

Who my I have a sense that really there's some imaginary boundary here or something that's causing a lot of problems and that once you see past that boundary or it's just I mean, God, I mean, you know, everyone wants a nice view. Everybody wants a house with a nice view. And I don't know if you saw the curb your enthusiasm or Larry David. It's like, you really like the view you get. You just look at the view a few times.

You don't care about the view anymore. It's but in this situation, it's kind of like, you know, a prisoner gets moved just moving a prisoner from solitary confinement to a cell with a simple little window overlooking anything is going to be for that prisoner, the greatest thing that ever happened to them. It's like, my God, I can see, see, see out. So is it possible to really be compassionate to oneself? Like, I can lift a thing with my hand.

I can move stuff around. But is this thing you're talking about a result of seeing something a little more expansive? And then that thing, naturally, it is being compassionate to the little you that you thought was all of you. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. And, you know, the.

The compassion is a cultivated mind state, right? And it arises. We should understand it. It needs to be studied by by meditation to really understand what compassion is, because people use that word. And for codependency, sometimes, or for guilt, or for. There was another one, I don't know. But anyways, we can mistake our emotions.

To real compassion is a desire to alleviate a wish for somebody to alleviate their pain and suffering. So the freedom to wish of beings to be free from suffering, wishing ourselves to be free from suffering. Who is doing that? What is that great question? And you can keep asking that because that might obliterate your ego. My question.

Incinerated. It could do all of all of those things. And, you know, again, it's answerable and direct experience only. But we are at distinct beings, right? If I pinch myself, you don't feel it. We have a mind and we have a body. The I part is a psychological component of the mind that says I am that makes ourselves permanent and forever.

But what we are is a being that is changing and in a constant state of change, there's nothing solid. And even this very being, this identity is going to change and transform at some point, apparently. And I mean, we know we're going to die, but apparently it changes. Then the mind finds another body, apparently. But even we don't even have to discuss that. We can just look within our own lives and know from 10 years ago how

much we've changed or from when we're a baby, how much we've changed. So what we start to see with insight is that we're, that Ram Dass says, the changing series of events. We are distinct individuals, though, and so it's not a no-self in that way. But as Tunisar Bhikkhu says, the Buddha said to relate to things as not so. This is not me. This is not mine. This I am not because it's that mental process of identifying with

something that brings a lot of pain and strip. It's really helpful to do with our difficult emotions too. You know, I mean, so much gets compounded on people and their suffering. But they experience loneliness or if they experience a problem in love. And that can be very helpful, but this is not me. You know, people identify with the broken parts of their self. They identify with those parts of their broken. I am of this kind of person.

People report to me all the time. They come to my classes. My mind is always wandering. I'm like, okay, who else? Everybody, like, okay, it's so funny what we call I. It's so funny what we call I. Yes, yeah, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a really interesting phenomena. That maybe we'll get, you know, sometimes I wonder as Buddhism or insight,

whatever you want to call it, really like a short-term fix for a like problem with a brain that got too big too fast and we just got confused. And now we've, I did that confusion has become culture and everything that we call civilization is just a byproduct of this sort of the Neo Cortex grew too fast. Cortex grew too fast. Something happened. No, it's, it's broader than just that.

I mean, this is, this is talking about realms of existence and the cure for, for anyways, we won't speculate, but do you practice mindfulness? I do. Yes, I do. And after you practice, do you feel some benefit? I do. That's the most important thing to just always look at that. And it never stops in my experience.

You'll see it's always in the benefits, just deeper and deeper and deeper and better and better. And the healing of that ache in the soul that you described is available and it will just keep happening. Good news. That's good news. And always connect your mind with that cause that you put in, if your meditation practice to the effect and the cause you put in that a night of drinking to the

effect and the cause that you put in when we lose our tempers to the effect and the cause that you put in being generous and helpful to people to the effect. That's cool. Well, that's what mindfulness is. It's just paying attention. And when we do that. Oh, then I don't practice mindfulness. I'm sorry.

I thought it was something else. What do you do? Well, you know, I like, I practice, but I practice mindfulness the way I practice doing abdominal exercises. I mean, you know, you see someone at the gym, you're like, Jesus, look at that. So yes, but I'm going to start practicing mindfulness now. Thank you. Do you do the pot?

Do you do these vipassana retreats yourself? I want to go to the one you run. Oh, okay. Well, I'll tell you when I do, I don't have one scheduled right now. I really want to offer them freely and I'm just waiting for that ship to come about. I just want to offer them for that's how all my retreats were. And yeah, I just want to offer them freely. And in the West, they've become so much a part of this and they have to in, you

know, various ways. So there's places that have offered me to come, but I just, I want it to be free. You could have a spring around food or something. Well, there's all kinds of ways. And I feel like, you know, Sairu Pandita said, you put your mind on something and a wholesome intention, it will manifest. So it will manifest, but I will let you know if I do a retreat. Thank you.

For sure. Thank you for your time. Thank you for answering my lopsided questions. Melissa, it's really been a joy chatting with you. And just thank you for out of the blue, sending a really powerful email to me. That has become a co-on. And I think about it there apart for a second. I'm like, no, no.

And then I'm like, oh, it's totally right. And then you're a great teacher because I always, you know what? Now, if something annoys me when I read it at first, I'm like, no way, way. I'm like, oh, shit, it's good. This is good, but it's in there. It didn't annoy me. But you know what I mean? It was, it wasn't even challenging, but it disrupted some confusion that I was having.

And I really appreciate the time you took to write it. That was very kind of you. And thank you. I look forward to talking to you more in the future if you have time and. Much love to your brother. Oh, yeah. Where can people find you? Oh, well, I teach a weekly class on zoom, Melissa McKay.net is the easiest way.

Now has all the things. Great. All the links you need to find Melissa will be at DuncanTrestle.com. Thank you so much, Melissa. Howdy, Kishina. Thank you. Thank you, Duncan. That was Melissa McKay, everybody.

If you want to connect with her, all the links will be at DuncanTrestle.com. A big thank you to our beloved sponsors. And thank you for listening. Remember, if you want to tune in to the Ramdas retreat, all you got to do is go to Ramdas.org. And all the links will be there. They'll also be in the description of this episode. I'll see you next week. Until then.

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