Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 546: Robert Waldinger

Episode Date: January 13, 2023

Robert Waldinger, director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development, zen priest, and author, joins the DTFH! Check out Robert's new book, The Good Life, available wherever you buy your books! You can learn more about Robert on his website, RobertWalDinger.com, and you can follow him on Twitter! Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: ZipRecruiter - Try for FREE at ZipRecruiter.com/Duncan Lumi Labs - Visit MicroDose.com and use code DUNCAN at checkout for 30% Off and FREE Shipping on your first order! Squarespace - Use offer code: DUNCAN to save 10% on your first site.

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onto two orphanages and a fish market. Gravy Goose claims the orphanage and fish markets were harboring forbidden clones. The blame for this attack falls squarely on the shoulder of the corrupt Paladins of Gander, who chose to hide their abominations in the cellars of civilian buildings. I and my dragons only walk peace,

but in this instance had no choice. And deadly flooding caused the evacuation of happy, pretty people, Wisdomtown, and its outlying villages. We know this flooding is happening because the peasantry continue to use unicorn oil to light their lanterns. We must switch to glow crystals,

or we can only expect disasters like this to continue. I'm Hammy Hound, and this is Lord's News Today. Lord's News Today is supported by the Necromancers Institute of Orphan Betterment. Support also comes from the Paladins of Gander, Paladins of Gander, here for all Anaria. The War of the Cursed Crown, as it's being called by Lord Betterment,

continues to rage in western Andaria. The embattled city of Vesthox underwent another round of dragon attacks, this time liquefying an orphanage and a fish market, and resulting in the deaths of at least 30 orphans and seven fishmongers. From the front line, Dieter Dambo reports. Dieter, can you tell us what you're seeing there

on the ground? Last night, while precious orphans slept, black dragons spade their poison upon Vestax. I'm being told that the acid coming from these dragons is like no other, as not only does it liquefy, but residual acid blobs explode when exposed to sunlight, making it impossible for rescuers to pull any survivors out of the ruins.

Scenes of inspeakable carnage have been reported, and the citizenry have been ordered to take shelter in the mines of Prince Dreff. Are there any signs that the Nightmare Legion will stop these dragon attacks? Even in the face of collectivized curses from the Council of Wizards, the Sisters of Light, the Priests of the Peaceful Mother,

and Calor Attacks from Battalions of Chromatic Dragons, the Banished One, Gravy Goose, remains set on continuing these attacks until his Ring of Eternal Life is returned to his keep in Fardale. In a decree issued after the Feast of Skulls, Gravy Goose made this statement. I was chosen by the blood maidens to live forever.

I passed the trials of the ancient scribes. I crossed the desert of no return and retrieved the Skulls of Time, and for my efforts, I was given the Ring of Eternal Life by Dandy Tandy herself, and now the corrupt paladins who secretly performed forbidden rituals in the Sanctum of Gander show their true colors

by refusing to return that which is mine. I have no choice but to continue my liberation of Vestox until that which is my destiny is returned to my keep. King Davis continues to pledge and dyeing support to the people of Vestox and vows to supply the lords of Vestox with a full military package, including a fresh battalion of telepathic warrior club.

We now go to Beater, where shrines of sadness have been erected outside the Buckington Academy where a tutor was evaporated by an eradicating order. All know what this is. The royal class and all of their bootlicking lords and ladies expect us to sit back while the tax collectors pick our pockets

so that we can fund yet another ridiculous war against Gravy Goose who only wants his property returned to him. Is Gravy Goose a vile criminal? Yes, we all know this, but he has only done exactly what he said he would do if another of his artifacts was stolen by the Paladins of Gander. Are we to forget that he has the stone of destruction

and can at any moment bring us back to the age of desolation? Here, with counterpoint, his commander, Pean Pean, adviser to the House of Gander. Pean Pean, thoughts on this ridiculous war. Nobody wants war. Nobody. Then end the war. Do you really believe that Gravy Goose is just going to go back to his keep and taken out?

If we show weakness and return his artifact, granting him eternal life, then he will do just what the blasphemer did during the Weaver Wars. Is that what you want? I suppose you love the idea of armies of undead dragging our children into the forest. Don't be ridiculous.

Greetings, pals. It's me, Duncan Trussell. This is the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast. We have got a great episode for you today. Robert Waldinger is here with us today. He's the director of the Harvard Study of Adult Development. He's also a Zen priest, and they've just released a wonderful book called The Good Life, which is based on a 75-year-long Harvard study of adult life

and what it means to find happiness. It's probably not what you think. Pals, did you know that if you want commercial-free episodes of the DTFH, you can find that at patreon.com.dtfh. Subscribe. You will also have access to our weekly meditation group, our weekly family gathering,

and much, much more. That's patreon.com.dtfh. If you happen to be listening to this on the week of January 12th, and you live in or anywhere near... Madison, Wisconsin. Then come see me next Thursday, Friday, and Saturday in Madison, Wisconsin.

I'm gonna be at comedy on state with the profanely brilliant William Montgomery. I hope you will come out. And now, everybody, please welcome to the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast, Robert Waldinger. Let's begin. Let's begin.

Let's begin. Welcome to the DTFH. It's so nice to meet you. I'm very excited to chat with you. Thank you for your attention. Thank you for being here. Thank you for coming. Welcome to the DTFH.

It's been Duncan Trussell. Welcome. Welcome to the DTFH. It's so nice to meet you. I'm very excited to chat with you about your work. Thanks for having me.

I'm really glad to be here. Let's just jump into the deep water. Not only are you one of the pre-minute experts on happiness, maybe in the world, you're also a Zen Buddhist. Am I correct about that?

I'm a Zen priest and actually a Roshi. Roshi, tell me from the Buddhist perspective if you had to before we get into the Western definition, what is the Buddhist definition of happiness? Happiness

I think probably is just being present for whatever arises. That's it. There's nothing else. Being present in whatever arises. To me,

I can do that while being miserable. I think I can do that while feeling scared, angry, pissed off, and yet still maintain some level of presence in the midst of really awful feelings. But I wouldn't call that happiness.

No, you're right. The sort of hedonistic idea of happiness, like are we having fun now? No. But I think there's a kind of okaness or the back pain or

the itchy nose or whatever we're annoyed by and don't want to have. But just to be there for it and say, okay, here it is. Come on. That leads to a kind of equanimity even in the midst of

not liking what's arising in this moment. This equanimity that you're talking about having studied Buddhism and I don't want to say failure in relation to Buddhism, but

bringing into mind these practices I've been taught that I know that you have been taught, for example, waking up in the middle of the night your mind offering you the gift of whatever the particular

person in your life that you're most annoyed with, the subsequent burst of anxiety around that increase in wakefulness at 3 a.m. another adrenaline spike. No, you're not going back to sleep. How are you going to go back to sleep?

You're pissed now in the middle of the night for no reason. And then I try to apply this ride the wave, they say. It's a wave. It's a we can ride this wave. And sometimes it really feels like I am shoveling shit

against the tide, not surfing. Absolutely. And you know, sometimes that's all it is. You can't surf. You're just shoveling shit against the tide. But you know, one of my teachers would say to me sometimes like I would come in

and sit down and say, I'm just so furious. I'm just in rage. And he would say, okay, go back out there, sit on your cushion and be the Buddha of rage. Just become intimate with that rage. Dive right in.

And that I found, first of all, it makes it go away. I mean, it makes it subside. But to just embrace it, to just say, I'm just all in for shoveling this shit, right? That that I have found is the most helpful thing. Even at 3 a.m., you know, when I'm like, no,

I can't believe I'm awake and thinking about this person who's annoying me. They're just, oh, this is what it's like to be, you know, to be awake at 3 a.m. And this is what my body's like. And this is what it feels like in my head. And, you know, that it's just that turning toward that I've

learned to do. And it's not great. But it's what I've learned to do that's better than all the agony of trying to push something away that you can't push away. Isn't there something claustrophobic about that, though? Isn't there some, you know?

Yeah. Oh, I agree. So I'll do things like if I can, like not at 3 a.m., but I'll go for a walk because I know that, like, if I change my mental, if I have some physical activity and I can change my mental state as well, I can get out

of that headspace just by a vigorous walk, you know? Okay. So I agree with you. It's not like you just sit there and grin and bear it no matter what, because sometimes you just can't. Right. It just seems unbearable.

And then, you know, I think for a lot of us who have taken up some spiritual path, who have experienced the relief that is there as well, it's not all just shoveling shit against the tide. You also get a glimpse at the very least of some other way

that you can live in the world that's very different from maybe what you thought was going to be your future. And I think what makes those moments much more unbearable is that they seem, at least for me, they seem to come after

these spiritual peaks, after these moments of clarity. Yeah. What is that? Why does that happen? Well, you know, was it Joseph Goldstein who did that series of interviews with people who had had enlightenment experiences, and he wrote them up

and put them into a book, and the title of the book is After the Ecstasy, And he's like saying, you know, this is just what it is. So the universe will deliver some shit to us right after we've had a wonderful, blissful experience

because that's the truth of life. Yeah. And this Eastern stuff, the definition of happiness according to a Buddhist or someone in

an Eastern mystical tradition is it the same definition in the West? Is it when you start talking about equanimity, when you start talking about some of these things, does that translate into your work in the West

on happiness? You know, I think the biggest difference between Eastern philosophies and our Western sensibility is about the sense of well-being being so tied up with

the universe and everybody else, collective well-being mattering so much in many Eastern cultures and this kind of culture of rugged individualism that's a total myth, right? We know it's a total myth, but it's what

we cling to, especially here in the good old US of A. What do you mean myth? What do you mean myth? Well, you know, the idea that I am a separate fixed thing called Bob, just not the truth, right? Right. So you look at these self-made men

and they're often men who declare themselves self-made, like, you know, I've done it all myself. Don't stand on anybody's shoulders. Don't rely on anybody. Haven't gotten a leg up at any time. That is such garbage, right? Right.

But we hold these myths and we say, oh well, that person, and I can point to a prominent political figure, but I won't. But as an iconic person who holds himself out as I've done this myself and I'm quite special

and that I think is a sensibility that infects Western culture more than Eastern culture. Right. And that's what I would say is like maybe the biggest difference between what constitutes well-being in the

Eastern cultures that I know of and what constitutes well-being, you know, in the frontier mythology of the American West. Frontier mythology still with us. And then, you know, add to that, that because of the economic structure

of pretty much everything these days, we live in a market economy, you need to get a nice profit margin. I'm sure you, I don't know, have you ever watched Shark Tank? I never have, but it sounds awful. You gotta watch. Really? You gotta watch.

Because, you know, these individuals they represent what you're talking about, these individuals represent their, I don't know, billionaires, trillionaires, some of them own football teams or sports teams. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the entire show is based on taking someone

who's got an idea that you like, using your infinite wealth that you're accruing interest on so that you'll never run out of money, giving them some loan or another and taking a chunk of their business and then sort of celebrating your like harshness in your deal

making in that moment, that person. Not to ruin Shark Tank for people, but as it turns out, many of those deals don't even happen. They're just talking so someone comes, they've got a new way of making a milkshake or something. You, they give you a story about it, usually very sentimental. You say, all right, I'll

give you $100,000 for 30% steak in your company. They're like I guess so. I'm actually destitute. I had to walk here 10 miles. I can't afford a new one, but yeah, I'll take it. And then the deal falls through. But

I'm only mentioning it because you know, all the, whoever the particular flavor of horror of the week is showing up on the internet. You know how we have that. It's like professional wrestling. We do. Now we're mad at Andrew Tate. He's the YouTube influencer who

got arrested in, I think, Romania for sex trafficking. Terrifying person in the sense that I guess he is his number one fan base or 14 year old boy. Oh no. He's presenting this idea of like you lift weights, you make

as much money as you can. Get out of the matrix. They want you to be weak. You know, look at me. I'm ripped. This thing, right? So but it's all part of myth is what you're saying. You're saying this is all

part of a Western mythology. And can I say that actually one of the reasons why we wrote this book is that, so we did this study, you know, we're in our 85th year of following the same people. So you follow entire lives. And when you

follow thousands of people year after year after year, what you see is that no life looks like those myths. Friends, it's 2023. And that means it's time for you to supremify, perfectify, ultra

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that's ZipRecruiter.com slash D-U-N-C-A-N Zip Recruiter the smartest way to hire. Zip Recruiter Like, lives just aren't like that. They have twists and turns and adversities and people have weaknesses

and strengths and they mess up and then they do great things and it's just all kaleidoscope most lives are kaleidoscopes they're not these kind of straight paths with lots of testosterone and

with lifting lots of weights and Oh, but wouldn't you like to get on testosterone? I sure would. I had testicular cancer I can't. I'd be blast in steroids all day long just to know what it feels like but off my wife's like, you can't take that stuff I want more babies. It'll destroy

your sex drive. It's like I can't take it if I wanted to I have testicular cancer it causes that anyway. Good for her. But wouldn't it be fun though to be ripped? Don't you wonder even with all of your views

of the backstage the thing we don't get to see the thing when these people are off stage they're not presenting themselves as the ripped super healthy very balanced person you're seeing the nervous breakdowns the divorces

you're seeing the sicknesses the reaction to economic collapse not the stuff on stage isn't there some part of you that still still plays around with the idea of like wouldn't it be nice to be a billionaire and wouldn't it be but also

well I don't have that fantasy anymore because I've studied some billionaires and they're not happier than anybody else but there's the fantasy that somebody somewhere has it all figured out and one of the problems with social media is that we curate our lives

for each other like I don't post my photos of when I'm hungover in the morning I don't do that I post you know me on a beautiful beach or me about to dig into a magnificent plate of food right so if you look at my

posts or I look at your posts like I would think you've got it all figured out and I don't right and all of us yearn for somebody who's got it figured out that we can emulate this happens in spiritual practice too as I know you

know right you know that we want somebody to be so enlightened that they're just totally arrived and it's all good for them all the time and that's not the truth of enlightenment either it's just not the truth of human life

no and this brings me back to the claustrophobia to the to where you really hit this place of like oh my god it's Santa Claus oh my god we've all fallen for another version of Santa Claus

yes not only is there not a bearded philanthropist in the North Pole with elves making stuff for kids there's nobody out there who's got it figured out exactly that there isn't that person my dream of that person

is not some muscular dude telling me about real estate investment opportunities my version of that is the cave somewhere in the homolius sitting in caves enlightened masters

radiating another version that I have that I it's really dumb that I fall prey to but I think I'm not the only one these days the UFO fantasy some like maybe there's okay if there's no human on the planet who's got it figured out maybe some of these whatever they are zipping around now the alien crafts

are being operated by beings who are about to land present themselves to us and calm everybody down and so when I okay so that's like the opposite of the QAnon fantasy where the Jews have a satellite that's controlling everything and

yeah right oh yeah yours is the benign UFO fantasy but we both what's weird about all conspiracy theories related to a global elite with absolute power and my dumb ass I mushroom fantasy of some celestial entities

saving my ass and the planet's ass both of them bear the same essence which is you know as dark and diabolical as the QAnon people whoever might picture this whoever they are people

it's still those people have it more figured out than you right like the Illuminati at least they know what they're doing I don't like yeah maybe there's an apharius plot and there's false flags and all that stuff but at least someone out there is organized at least

someone out there has a plan so when I hear you say uh-uh no no no it's not like that not like that no but I've got thousands of life histories to prove it I mean that's where you know I really can say because we we've done this

right you know it's the longest in-depth study of the same lives that's ever been done and I can say honestly nobody ever has it all figured out but isn't that a relief in a way because that also means that you're

not an outlier there it's not like everybody else has it figured out and you don't realize that nobody does it's a relief I guess in the same way that it might be a relief when the person you are lost in the woods with finally admits that they're lost and you're like

okay great now we can I'll stop following your lost ass around and start like listening to myself to see if I can find a way out of the woods it's not a relief though if you have allowed yourself any version of the rescue fantasy

version of the someone's coming to save you or you're finally going to find the right teacher the right practice the right business model that is going to rescue you from

whatever your particular life conditions are so in that way it's a little unnerving honestly I mean do you think that it could be possible for a person to figure it out could it be possible for a person to

go against your data set and actually figure whatever this is out well you know I mean I think about this in terms of my zen practice you know

is there reincarnation I don't know I can't know really so your question is is there there can't be somebody who's fully enlightened fully macho, fully whatever and and has got a

no I can't be sure maybe there is maybe there's reincarnation you know maybe there's a god who was born from immaculate conception I don't know I can't say

I can just say that the truth of my experience is I've never met some points in their life and god knows I struggle at times so and I find that a relief rather it is a little sad because my fantasy won't come true

but it's more of a relief than it is sad to me right yeah I could see that I mean it's to get back to the social media thing I mean we're crucifying ourselves on these presentations by other people

you know you're crucifying yourself when you see that person who's achieved the thing that you think you never will or the person with a body that you're never going to have because you're too old to have that body or lips you shall never kiss

you know what I mean the road not taken like that's just I'm just never going to be a major league baseball player it's just not going to happen for me oh blasphemy this is I love that you call it a myth

in dark moments I've thought of it as like my god there really is a secret religion you want to find the secret religion you want to find like the true bohemian grove it's not out in the woods with a bunch of old dudes plotting whatever their next

interest rate hike is it's not that at all isn't the secret religion you're talking about is the one where we're praying an unachievable version of ourselves and constantly failing

it's never showing up it's not coming you're just where you're at right now this is it now have you the other thing that I know that shows up in buddhism a lot but I get why I'm sure in this study

have you ever seen a life that was going just great where everything seemed fine instantly cut off by catastrophe doom death yes of course of course

and I bet you have too I bet most of us have where somebody just you know one of my sangha mates in my zen group just he adored biking wonderful biker was out in another state running a race

got hit by a car and an instant was gone right great life doing what he loved dead I mean that just it is just you know one of the things we say in zen actually it's from Korean Zen master he said

it's hard to guarantee even a morning and an evening like we just don't know and that's something that if we're lucky can allow us to appreciate the preciousness of just being alive I mean you know here you and I

are having this conversation that's kind of a great thing to be able to do it's my favorite thing it's my favorite thing to do I love it so much but also you know when I have these conversations it's not pleasant in the normal

sense right now all I'm feeling is in just that brief reminder all I'm feeling is that you know like when you're on a plane and you're relaxing you're watching a show or whatever you're chilling out maybe you got a nice seat or something

and then all of a sudden it occurs to you how fast that plane is going you know oh my god I'm rocketing through the sky right now everyone's chilling out babies are sleeping you're in a missile

and if you you know if you let your mind run away with you it can cause some panic and I think for a lot of people when they hear you that gentle reminder that comes to us from a lot of the eastern traditions suddenly

oh my god I'm not calming now I'm really not calming down live a good life well I'm not going biking I'm gonna dig a bunker surround myself you know I need foam someone wrap me in foam give me a helmet I'll just start wearing a helmet all the time

so how does that realization lead to the ability to relax enough to ride those waves to be in the moment you know science actually there's research on this

and it shows that we get happier as we get older that as a species we get happier you would think we'd get sadder because it looks sad to be old turns out it's not it's the reverse that starting about in your 40s

we start to get gradually happier and they're pretty sure from the research that this happens at least in part because of this increasing awareness of our mortality that we get more of a sense of okay this is not a dress rehearsal life

really is short I am really gonna die and it's getting closer and closer and rather than make us more panicky rather than make us sadder it makes us savor what we have music music

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