Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 555: RamDev Dale Borglum

Episode Date: March 12, 2023

RamDev Dale Borglum, contemporary of Ram Dass and executive director of the Living Dying Project, re-joins the DTFH! Canadian family! If you're near Cortes Island, BC you might still be able to attend RamDev's current retreat at the Hollyhock campus. Click HERE for more details. Hurry, it ends March 14! Can't make it out to Cortes Island? Check out The Living/Dying Project's next online event, The Subtleties of Gratitude as a Spiritual Practice with LaShelle Lowe-Chardé, happening March 26! Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Squarespace - Use offer code: DUNCAN to save 10% on your first site. Athletic Greens - Visit AthleticGreens.com/Duncan for a FREE 1-year supply of vitamin D and 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase!

Greetings friends, it's me Duncan and this is the Dunkin Trussell family hour podcast. Good morning to you Well, if you're listening to this in the morning, I'm recording it on a Saturday morning. Here's something exciting I am attempting to shift the DTFH to video mode I know I've been saying this on and off for the last many years But it's actually happening and so I would love it if you would subscribe to my YouTube You can find it by searching Dunkin Trussell on YouTube I'm gonna start doing video intros. I actually tried to do one today But ran into some technical difficulties you video streamers make it seem so easy

Don't you so easy to set up multiple cameras multiple angles perfect audio, but it's not It's really hard, but I'm gonna do it. So go to my YouTube. Won't you also? If you want commercial-free episodes of this go to patreon.com forward slash DTFH and subscribe you'll get commercial-free episodes And hopefully you can get access to our discord servers for those of you who are having trouble getting into the discord It appears not positive about this, but it appears that our entire Discord server has been reset because one of you Cretans out there posted some horrible image or something I don't know. I send an appeal to discord. I'm trying to figure out what's happening But stay tuned for that normally when you subscribe to the patreon you get access to discord

But until we work out whatever horrific thing someone posted apparently it's gore. That's what I got in my email We won't be able to get the discord running and I won't be able to get to that until Monday so Hang tight we will restore our homeland Today we have a wonderful guest Recurring guest Rom Dev. I love him so much. He's really tight with Rom Doss He actually got to hang out with Neem Karoli Baba and Rom Doss in India and he's got so many cool stories that if you're somebody who has

Tuned in to the Rom Doss wavelength you may never have heard before and some of them Are here today you like Rom Dev check out the Living Dying project go see him He has a retreat coming up which we talk about in this episode and come see me I'm gonna be at wise guys in Las Vegas next week. It's March 11th right now. So that's gonna be March 18 17th and 16th in Vegas you can find tickets at Dunkin Trussell dot com And now everybody welcome back to the DTFH Rom Dev Welcome back to the DTFH how goes it?

And so glad to be with you Duncan always a pleasure You know, I here's my question for you that popped into my head You're a long-time friend of Rom Doss in that community One thing that's always been interesting to me is Rom Doss's connection with a manual the channeled entity and I want I wondered if you had any thoughts at all about that relationship What was it and what are your thoughts on channeling? okay, well for those of you guys who don't know a manual was a disembodied spirit and When we were back in New York Rom Doss and me at a whole bunch of the Maharajie people ended up in New York

Studying with a woman named Joya Who that's a whole other story that we maybe can get into some time. It was very dramatic She ended up being a wonderful meditation teacher, but sort of needed to feel she was the highest human being highest female being in form It was a cult right and Anyway, we were back there and Rom Doss met a woman in Pat Rodegas to channel the manual And Rom Doss had this line that just because you don't have a body doesn't mean You can't be wise or smart or something like that. I don't know So I actually went to a reading with Pat Rodegas the manual talked to me

He said I was gonna fall in love and get married at a certain time. It didn't happen He told me a bunch of other things that didn't happen But he seemed to have some kind of good generic spiritual wisdom that Anybody could have gotten out of a book. So I was a little bit spec. I was a little bit skeptical and but Rom Doss knew the woman who was channeling Pat who was a very good friend of another friend of Rom Doss's and I Don't know really what to say. I mean

to me it just felt like a little weird I have to admit but You know at the same time we were around Maraji and all kinds of completely crazy things happen, right? The the the main book Rom Doss put together about Maraji was called Miracle of Love and What what the title kind of is implying that Maraji could do all these miracles? He could know the past he could know the future seemed like he could be in two places at the same time But the real milk the real miracle is how much he loved that that put all the other miracles to shame, right? Right, and I didn't feel that from a manual

he had some wisdom, but it didn't seem like a big deal to me and So I mean even the things that Maraji did that or a manual that could seem like Miraculous or out of the ordinary if you really start looking at quantum mechanics these days They're kind of showing. I mean some guys just got the Nobel Prize for Quantum entanglement that shows that basically there's only one thing the universe one song. There's just one sub-act it's all one and So that if you're living at that state of non duality This idea of time and past and present and future and here and there and all that stuff

It doesn't make any sense anymore because you're everywhere and everything so From that perspective There are people like maybe you could say they're tuning into Jung's collective unconscious that it's not a miracle that Everything's out there all the information that's happens gonna happen Parallel universes. I mean who knows right? Yeah, so Do you so is Pat still around? Is what's up, I don't know I have no idea. I mean I kind of doubt it. She seemed to be about

maybe Ram Dass's age, but You know he he would be like about 90 years old now probably no he'd be older than that He'd be like about 94 a few were alive. I think you know because he was he was 11 years older than me So he'd be he'd be 91. I don't know my numbers are all crazy here. I've got a PhD in math But I can't do arithmetic. What do you know about that? Yeah, I understand I get that I'm the same way except mine is the PhD in math the okay, so So

I'm interested For a few different reasons One being you know you you all were sort of in the nucleus of what later became known as the New Age movement and Channeling was such a big part of That culture. I mean you had Rampha you had Emanuel you had a myriad other of these People who claimed to be able to become host to these entities. My mother was so into Ramda and a Ramtha rather she left Ramdas to Ramtha very into Ramtha I went to see Ramtha channel at in Asheville, North Carolina

And I did feel something but then you know, maybe I'm a sucker. I don't know but I did feel like a palatable energy shift I felt a Presence I Also had a very skeptical mind Wanted to believe it's true and I had a channeler on my show live once now This was one of the one of my bigger podcast mistakes because by that time I got very cynical very skeptical And the friend who suggested this channeler I he was connected with all these spiritual people in New York and

Wasn't the sort of person who would just like to give you something that was bullshit, but the channeler comes to the show It's live podcast we're doing and he just seems real normal. And so I'm thinking to myself. Well, this is gonna be a bust I saw tickets for this. I feel like an asshole He starts channeling this entity and people in the front row They just start crying. It was and it was like sitting next to like Too much energy it was you it was hard to stay still it was like whatever was coming out of him was like waving out rippling out into the room and He the way he he does

Some channelers are possessed. I guess that's pretty nicer word for them possessed But they the being comes out of them. He does Audio clear I can't remember the specific name where he the thing comes out of him. He hears it and repeats it So this thing machine gun Way too fast so fast it's spitting out these brilliant sentences, but It's like a it's it's obviously it's English, but it's like Moore's code or something So those are two weird experiences I've had with it and both to me confirm that this phenomena Whatever it may be I get why people are drawn into it

So it's interesting to hear that a manual to you Which is kind of felt like somebody picked up some new age books and was regurgitating some of that stuff Well, I'm not saying that exactly maybe it sounded like that and if I did I apologize I guess what I'm saying is like for instance, I just saw a zoom workshop over the weekend and somebody wrote to me and said I really loved your stream of consciousness the way it was structured and Yeah, so I mean like what I try to do like right now when I'm with you or all the time is get as open as I can get I'm gonna have this embodied mindfulness I try to open my heart and then just like let my mouth start flapping around and

Is is is Dale Romdev doing it or his is Maharajee spoke is speaking through me or I don't know and it might just be that Pat Wrote a gas than the person on your show was a very high being who could go into some altered state where the wisdom of the universe flows through and They happen to call it romp or Immanuel or maybe they're doing that for marketing reasons or whatever But I mean, what was Maharajee channeling like what are you channeling right now? I mean, it's all kind of levels of channeling. You're a step at me. That's what I was trying to get to you leapfrog

Me that's what I'm trying to get to that's what I wanted to get to that's let me give you a quote Okay, you're a quote that I just read in a book by my friend Andy Lamont yesterday. She's the best God is the worst nickname ever Okay It's like what you it's when you're vomiting it's like there has to be a better thing than just starting with that G It's not hard. Yeah So but what I'm saying is that we're all channeling God Right, I mean, whether you call it Jesus or Immanuel or Rampha or Maharajee or

Duncan's Deeper voice or whatever it is. I mean, it's like I mean basically spiritual practice is about Disidentifying with ego structure and identifying with true nature and just letting that flow through you unimpeded, right? Right, so that maybe some of these channelers were people that had a certain ability Maybe they're not enlightened But they had this one ability at least to really get out of the way and tune into the wisdom That's always floating around. I mean like if you think about it right now The worst rap music on the worst radio station in your neighborhood is going through your body, right?

It's I mean, it's all there all all those radio waves Yeah, right all the if all the information is available in some way, right? So these these channels are able to tune into that you're able to tune into it sometimes to a certain degree I am well, no, I mean, I know that this is exactly I'm cured This is like that. This is what I'm very curious about is, you know If you if you do with the slightest self-reflection in the midst of talking and try to tune in where the words coming from well if I

Had to spend any amount of time Contemplating the next word out of my mouth then I would stutter. I wouldn't be capable of maintaining any kind of conversation at all and Somewhere in there it feels like the bottom drops out that you you we so want to lay claim To what we say, you know, it came out of my mouth It must be me But when you analyze the situation of just speaking at all You're not really spending too well if you're me you're definitely not spending much time

Thinking about what you're about to say. You're just letting it letting it go But somewhere in there you also have to let go of ownership over what you say even though people are like no You said that asshole what the fuck you can't let go of ownership when you look at it You realize like yeah, but I wasn't thinking about what I was there might be some feelings behind it but the articulation of reality itself Seems to be emerging from an abyss and I would love to know your thoughts on what that abyss is Well by

there's this this Famous quote the mind creates the abyss the heart crosses it and There's this fundamental paradox in spiritual life That because we're suffering because we're conditioned we're trying to find a safe solid space from which to View life live life, but in fact reality is groundless There's no permanent self. Everything's impermanent. Everything's changing There's not really an eye when you get right down to it in Buddhism. They talk about a Nietzsche Duca

Not to the three characteristics of existence. No permanent self impermanence unsatisfactoriness, so There's this tension between Some part of me that wants to be in control and know what's going on and I'm Dale and I'm Ramdev and I'm doing this stuff and And hopefully you're gonna like me and all those kind of things and there's this other part that's just like it's all spaciousness It's nobody's doing anything. There's not an eye and For most people it's a very gradual process of trust

Trusting this dying into life life or you could even say dying into love That the abyss I mean if you really think about loving somebody it's an abyss. Yeah, because it's it's it's this Mystery between two people or between you and God or between you and your true self or something, right? It's like it's this unknown thing. It's a mystery you surrender to the mystery and Then you pull back and say wait a minute. That's too big. That's too spacious Yeah, I mean when I was going to these long meditation retreats back before I became a parent I Had this this these experiences where my mind would get really quiet and I think

And I just I just be watching that I wouldn't be thinking at all actually and then some thoughts would come And I'd be aware of the thoughts after short and not so short amount of time They'd go away There'd be spaciousness and then some thoughts and then some awareness of thoughts But if I really paid very careful attention because I was curious Why would I start thinking when it felt so good to be resting in the abyss? Right and right before I started thinking there was fear of the abyss there was fear of death Yes, there was like I believe Descartes. I think they're for I am so let's start thinking so I can reify the ego structure

Rather than just resting in this bliss of openness. Yeah, because there's nobody doing the resting. It's just it's like Just floating in the vast sky of mind and One part of me is saying hey, this is fantastic, but the ego structure this part of me that's Based on survival right it says hey wait a minute. You're forgetting about me. Come back here. Let's let's think Let's let's have some dualism here, right? I don't like the abyss the abyss is very big Well, you know, it's like if you go back and apply like this same Conundrum when it comes to speaking Or thought origination I know in like neurobiology, there's some very creepy

Data that seems to suggest that before you even become aware of What you're going to say your brain is already determined now. This is what we're gonna say similarly with thoughts You know, if you've started any kind of sitting practice where you're allowing your thoughts just to do their thing Without reacting to them so much you can run into the same exact identical problem, which is You know, you're not like cooking your thoughts up in some kind of sulfuric kitchen that we're a guy Let me just think the worst fucking thing ever throwing a little Ukraine war tossing a little

COVID mix it up with some Pope global the polar shift and pending apocalypse and then I don't know. Yeah, I think about I was a shitty kid Let's see. Let's tile those things together and then wallah you think some neurotic thought No, the neurotic thought comes from the same abyss So when you talk about this well, you know, I decided to start thinking Who decided you that seems to be yet another trick It's it seems like at some point making enough contact with that nucleus or whatever you want to call it Abyss seems like a little sinister. I like that. We're calling it an abyss

I mean anyone who's having any encounter with emptiness doesn't really feel like when I think of abyss I think of HP Lovecraft. I don't think, you know, it's like tentacles But this is more of like come like a waking like oh, this is what I've always been saying and then These safety parachute thoughts that are that you're ejecting to desperately try to Stop your plummet into whatever this thing is. You're not even deciding to eject the parachute, right? Like it just is it just seems to be an automatic function when you are in that zone Like that, but you're not really deciding to think you you know what I mean? Like you're not like oh shit I need to think because that's a thought too

So that I mean it even goes into the body that Before you decide to move your hand to pick up the fork The hand is moving before the mind says hey, I think I'm gonna do that. Yeah, I mean Round us has this great metaphor that the spiritual life is like jumping out of an airplane and part way down realizing There's no ground. Yeah, I mean screw it up part way down realizing you don't have on a parachute Yeah, and then a little further way down you realize it's okay because there's no ground, right? But in that space in the middle between no parachute and no ground It's really scary because you think rocks might be coming up as you're falling down here, right?

right Yeah, and The you know so somehow within whatever this is you're you're essentially Experiencing death right like that's the idea is that prior to You know whatever Analogy you want to use deploying your parachute using your anti-graph suit whatever the thing is you want to do Prior to that you've already come home, right? Like that's the idea It's like right before you decide to start the machine up again

That the experience is one of like oh this this is me. This is what I've always been this is more me than me I don't know why that is so terrifying though. I agree with you I mean I've certainly gone scampering away from that so many times Meditating on psychedelics or whatever just like right I need to be Something I gotta I gotta it be a thing, you know, but Why because it seems like a real encounter with a thing is not really I wouldn't use the term frightening But I mean to me it seems like Duncan that There is so much conditioning from early childhood where we were conditioned out of trusting our

Openness our natural impulses that you've got to be socialized. You can't piss on the floor You can't write on the wall and you got to be quiet because dad's trying to read the paper whatever's going on Yeah, so you've got you've got to listen to the superego You've got to listen to this voice that's telling you how to behave and that voice is telling you I'm the voice of survival if you don't listen to me. They might not feed you. They might not Protect you anymore. You got to be a good boy. So there's there's two responses either. I'm gonna be a good boy Or I'm gonna be a rebel and I'm gonna be a bad boy, but they're two sides of the same coin Right so that we grow up we grow up and we're still doing that

we're still believing that's the voice of survival and Spiritual life is gradually learning to trust that we can we can die into the next moment and For many of us is dying into love. Can can can we trust our heart? Can we trust the heart space enough to die into the next moment that that love brings a sense of mercy and softening so that this surrender this dying is Dying into this vulnerability is something we can bear we're learning to bear What was previously unbearable? through practice

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You'll get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain again It's Squarespace.com for slash Duncan try him out see if you like it And then when you're ready to launch use offer code Duncan to get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain Thank you so much Squarespace So you you were you were talking about the sort of you know If you I you know you learn either to be a good boy do what mommy says be a bad boy Don't do what mommy says, but whatever you're doing is still a reaction No matter what you're still wrapped up in your your identity still wrapped up and I

You know, there's there's no autonomy there. You're just you're just different size of the same coin I think this is that what you're trying to say. Yeah But then again, you think about somebody like Brezhnev coffee leaping on the stage or will he mays catching a fly ball or something There's nobody doing that so that whether you're a meditator or an athlete or a creative person or something Or you're taking psychedelics or whatever it is that we seek out these places in life where we go beyond I'm doing it Where we're letting life flow through us. We're letting Shockty just letting that juice just be expressed through us And just getting in that flow feeling that

That that connectedness One of the one of the defining heart one of the defining qualities of the open heart Is is connectedness Right now Do I feel connected to you? Do I feel connected to my own self? Do I feel connected to the guy with the bad nickname god, right? Do I? Or am I disconnected on my back? I've got to protect myself. I've got to figure out what's going on And that sense of connection is going beyond I me mine

Right. What what you were looking for is who is looking? But it we're so conditioned That that we're we're practicing from a feeling of inadequacy And need and and poverty and we've we've got to find something to become better And when practice deepens enough we get to the place of abundance and richness and And we're we're practicing because we're living because we enjoy it because god's expressing through us life is Is flowing through us and that's a big shift where You're not feeling I've got to meditate. I've got to do this or that because I'm no good until I do it better

right Right well, let's talk about since we spend a lot of time talking about the connection Let's talk about disconnect be the experience of disconnect. Uh, can you describe what that's like for you? Well I was just talking yesterday with a friend of mine and I was talking about my connection with god, which is one specific issue And maybe 10 or 15 years after tomorrow as she died I felt like he abandoned me. I felt disconnected up until then I dream about him I could feel him

and so for a year or two I felt disconnected and I felt like I'm a bad devotee. He's abandoned me because I'm I've been goofing around too much, right? Yeah, and and then I got this message that no He's just saying it's time for I'm I'm going to stop holding your hand. It's time for you to Jump out of the nest mixing a few metaphors here and fly on your own right And so that it was not being connected with some idea of god or maharajie in the pictures or You know christ in the monitor or whatever it is, but just

just trusting true nature trusting who I am And just in the last few weeks though, it's feel it's been feeling like that Really sweet presence is coming back whether you call that maharajie or whatever but all of a sudden now something in me is trusting that there is that connection And sometimes I feel that with people. I often feel it In bed late at night

Like I'm going to bed And I put my head down on the pillow am I putting my head on the pillow or as I'm putting it in god's lap and I'm lying there And I've got this job where I meet a lot of people who are dying and suffering and grieving and all that so I try to think of these people and and Just say my mantra and feel love for people Not not that they're broken and I need to fix them Not that they're even people that are separate, but that I go into

wholeness And connection and then I connect with them Like when I was younger and all these yogi swamis llamas Roshis were coming to the bay area and I was like a big yogi and I needed all the help I could get I'd go to these people And I'd ask them my test question the test question was What would I do if I had a friend who were dying? And they'd never meditated and I really wanted to help them. What would it be the best thing to do?

And almost all of them said something like Merge your mind with the one mind And then merge your mind with your friend So you're not looking at them as a dying person or you're not looking them as something separate from you But you're looking at them as as their one with god and your one with god and then Like there's that line in the JD Salinger short story where this little enlightened kid saw somebody drinking milk and he saw God pouring god into god

Right. So that that it's all connected. Maraji would say sub-ex, sub-ex all the time It's all one and once again these people just got the Nobel Prize for there's just one thing in the universe, right? essentially universe one song only one so The further I go down this path the more it's about Surrendering into that oneness and less about Me trying to do something to fix something

That it's letting go of I'm in this big self-improvement project but that that that It's like Suzuki Roshi my first meditation teacher said to students. You're all perfect, but there's still some room for Some improvement Right now. Okay. So to me I feel like this is the sort of uh The double-edged sword of the guru Is that it produces an addiction

an inevitable addiction you become you how do you not become addicted to somebody who is Reminding you of home who is like Smell, you know, like when you walk into your home after a long trip or something, you know, it's like, oh my god this place How do you not get addicted to that? And you bringing up this sense of like being pushed out of the nest or whatever This is where it gets really curious. The entire self-help help movement So much of the teacher-student relationship that appears in capitalism

The teacher needs to sell books. They need to eat In other words to push the bird out of the nest To you know help them get to some place of like no, you don't need me anymore because you are me It actually could hurt ticket sales. You know what I mean? Like this to me seems like where Things could potentially get a little weird Which is I'm not denying that some people have like made a profound connection To this place

But it's odd, isn't it when like you need to keep telling stories about the place But you know what I mean? Like you have to tell stories about the place instead of getting people to the place to tell their own stories about the place You know what I mean? I hear what you're saying, but I really think there's a difference between a teacher and a guru Okay, and you say that you say that you become addicted to the guru, but if somebody really is a guru All they want is your happiness your freedom And when you get to the point where you don't need to be addicted anymore then they help you break that addiction Whereas somebody is out there selling their CDs and their books and their workshops and all that stuff

Uh, maybe that's much more of the beginning and Middle stages of the path and people Need to have those teachers people need to learn how to meditate and learn how to trust themselves and stuff but there's this final surrender into wholeness into love is is a whole different level of the game that we're talking about and Uh, certainly there are people who claim to be enlightened beings and You read stories about their sexual indiscretions or their scamming money or who knows what they're doing so

Somebody once asked maharajie. How do you know if somebody's your guru and he said Do you feel that they can completely bring you to total liberation or not? If if you don't feel that then they're not their guru. They're just some teacher along the way Wow cool Wow, that must be an incredible thing to be around that To have no doubts about it to to to know for sure that whoever this being is They could do that for you. What is that? What was that experience like for you?

Well, so about think about it in the beginning You do have to doubt you do have to check it out. Is there somebody I can trust or not if you just come in there with blind faith You're gonna end up with some shai shi guru. You're gonna end up with some Phone. I mean you might and I'm not saying you will but there's a chance that you're just somebody you want your money or your body or whatever They've they've got a few good lines of teaching and here Give me all your stuff But then eventually if you're keeping doubting and checking it out all the time You're really limiting the depth of surrender that can happen. So you

You you get to the point where you choose Is this my guru? Is this not my guru? And if you say yes, then you let go of all the doubt you just completely dive in there and certainly there are people that have made a mistake at that point, but When I was around maharaj in the beginning I was kind of believing who he was because ramdas said so and ramdas seemed to be My older brother. He'd been with maharaj before he knew Maharaj way better than I did right in the beginning there at least

And I remember there was I mean, let me just tell you this one story. So I was with maharaj right in the beginning of getting there And there was me and this guy steve Who's now his name is mohan and a bunch a bunch of other devotees And maharaj he turned to the two of us westers and he said How much do you guys pay for milk in america? And steve made a quick calculation in his head and said x rupees per kilo maharaj

And maharaj he turned to the indians and said can you believe How much they pay and he talked for 10 minutes to these people about the price of milk in america And i'm starting to doubt that ramdas knows what he's talking about that. Maybe this guy's senile I didn't come to india to talk about the price of milk in america. I wanted god. I wanted important discussion, right? And he turned back to us and he said how much was it again? and mohan said x rupees per kilo maharaj and maharaj he turned to the indians and Once again, he was going into this whole big talk and i'm saying this is this is crazy And all of a sudden I had this explosion in my mind

Where I knew it came from maharaj. I can't tell you how and he said we could talk about important stuff We could talk about god. I could try to convince you because i'm so clever or something But that just makes the mind busy if we're just talking about bullshit just the mundane There's this ocean of bliss that's always available right now And I just I just fell into this ocean of of bliss and I was It's so deeply in bliss that I could barely do anything for the rest of the day Right, right so that so that maharaj in that moment Uh

Showed me that it wasn't about my mind. It was about surrender and when I surrendered Which we can do right now. It's got nothing really to do with being in india in Kenchi at a temple or something like that That right now it's possible for us to surrender in that way And that the greatest love the greatest openness is available And then the ego says but wait a minute. That's pretty scary because what happens to me then

You know my ego's trick around that is not that scary I'm waiting my ego says it's too easy That's my my ego isn't afraid of it. It seems like or hasn't gone to the fear card yet. Usually the card it places You can't that's too easy. No, no, no you have to suffer Maharaji stood in a lake and stared at the sun You got to go into a mystery school. There are thorn thorny belts You must lash yourself with her You know pain torture crucifixion father. Why have you forsaken me? You you know penance

Burn off the karma man. You can't just Dive into an infinite believe that what That you have to do penance. You have to have a Belt of thorns and and and stand in a lake for a year to be enlightened not at all my ego Thanks that but anytime I've experienced it quite You know initially yes my I believe that but you know, I know what you're talking about

You know and and and when I first met Ram Dass uh and he he uh You know, I was in a swimming pool and I couldn't believe I couldn't believe it like I'm hang out Ram Dass Right after my mom died and then he pointed at me goes. I want to talk to you He said it really fun in a funny fierce way, you know And then and then when we were in his house, I remember he wheeled up to me

And it's just what you're talking about. You know just what you're talking about that experience like what is that? and uh Yeah, and he just he pointed at his head. He said you're here And then he pointed to his heart and he goes You have to get to here and he goes we we can do that You know, he was he didn't use a lot of words obviously because because of the stroke. So right he had a very concise way of saying things but I I I remember saying to him well, that's that's hard And because I'm thinking you know, I'm thinking that's not as hard. That's you don't know me man

I'm not getting out of my head and uh And then he got this big smile and he goes no, it's not And and so this has been my experience lately and but but within that experience there is a It's very funny the reaction that the part of you that wanted to work for it as You know, it's that story. What's the story? Uh in the bible. You probably know it

A guy hires workers in the morning Then in the yeah, I forgot I used to know that Hires workers in the morning Hires and he pays them and then he then he keeps paying them the same amount at the end of the day And the one pays them all for a day's work and the one ends in the morning You're like what the fuck they work for like 20 minutes. You're gonna pay them for a full day's work. That's not fair And then that's sort of one of the I think the stories about the kingdom You know, it doesn't matter your work. This isn't about work

That's the world the world wants you to sweat and grind away to get the ferrari or whatever This thing is go ahead. Sorry Yeah, let me make a couple of points here. One is that Maharajee maybe needed to stand in the lake for a year and stare at the sun and things because He needed to be a teacher of the level of Maharajee Right like for instance in buddhism

There are these things called the jataka tales where the the bodhisattva who was the buddha before he became the buddha He vowed to become the buddha. So he had to go through all these incarnations Not to get enlightened but become the Become the actual buddha like for instance in one incarnation. He was like walking out in the woods And he heard this sound and he looked down on this ravine and there was a Tiger that had fallen in there and the tiger and her two tiger cubs Were there and they were going to starve to that because the tiger had heard herself falling down into the ravine So the buddha so the bodhisattva threw himself into the ravine so the tiger could

Eat him and he could save the three of them at the cost of his single life, right? So he was going through all these incarnations to become the buddha. So maybe you and I don't need to become the buddha We just need to become enlightened Duncan enlightened ramdev, right? and Ramdas was he needed to be ramdas. He had some kind of karma. He had this really big karma To affect hundreds of thousands if not millions of people. I don't have that karma I affect a few thousand people maybe and it it's not really about numbers, but some people have that other kind of karma

Well, wait a minute. Hold on. Let me stop you before the gurjeef You've been talking about quantum entanglement. You've been talking about how we're all intrinsically Fundamentally connected how this thing that everyone knows got it, right? So and from that perspective You let me tell you Would you rather? What's what's worse? Old age disease death living an entire life are getting eaten by a tiger

I mean we're getting eaten by a tiger in slow motion It looks like the universe and it is eating us and it eats everybody So I would argue if this is a consensual relation thing that's happening here in other words if we chose this birth Then we just we were we signed up to get eaten by a tiger the size of the universe. So You're getting eaten by a tiger right now Yeah, but it's maybe a little bit. I mean first of all I'm enjoying life I mean If if I actually had a tiger come into my room right now and started chewing on my leg

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It would be a lot less pleasant than talking to you Hey, what is it? What is it from there? Yeah, okay? Well, thank you. That's nice to have people that would have been amazing if you said otherwise I would rather be by a tiger than continue to do your podcast would be uh What was the story you mentioned? Drinking the milk. How does it go again? That maverigie was talking about the price of milk and I got all bored and then no not that the story about the kid in that short story um

Oh, it was the j.d. Salinger not maverigie the j.d. Salinger story one of the short stories in franny and zooey or raze hide the roof beams carpenter whatever it is Where there was this enlightened little boy looking at another child Drinking milk and what he saw was god pouring god into god Right, so tie boot up pouring You know the same things true for the Buddha and the tiger we're talking about like if you know that that

You're you're from the outside. You're like what the why did my friend just feed himself to a tiger? We had meat back at the palace You know that's something that story I always think about like didn't he have a sandwich? like What wasn't there though? Wasn't there other things you could feed the starving tiger than yourself? But then that's taking a metaphor literally. Yeah, I was just going to say it might be a metaphor But but the point is

The point is that to become a Buddha you got to do maybe a different kind of practice than to become an enlightened duncan You know that's my my point and the other point is that gherjeev said that the first thing you got to do on the path Is let go of your attachment to your own suffering Right, and that's a hard thing to do because yes, it's it's so my victimhood My suffering is so comfortable and familiar And to be somebody who's not doing that means that who I think I am has to die. I've got to become a different person So like think of the metaphor of somebody's been incarcerated for like 20 or 30 years I used to teach meditation in san quen right and there are these stories of somebody's been

In the joint for a really long time and they get paroled and they don't want to leave because It's so big and scary out there, right? There's freedom out there, but they're so comfortable being in the cage right, so oh, yeah, so that That spiritual life is about gradually Getting used to being out of the cage And then you go back in for a while and then you let me try that again And then you go out there and maybe you can spend a little more time out of the cage But you want to sleep there at night because it's when it's dark out

It's too dangerous to be outside of the cage metaphorically. You hear what i'm saying. It's safe. My dogs like they're crates You know, they like to sleep in them at night. It's like, you know, they're they feel safe in there. I mean, there's one of my favorite Examples of this is if you ever read The Painted Bird by Yersey Kaczynski. No, I have not Oh, it's good and it's it's horrible, but Little boy, you know wandering through the countryside Towards the end of world or two. It's awful, but Encountering just horror after horror but one of the things that

Like there's a rabbit hutch And he and he's like sneaking around there sees this rabbit hutch and he feels bad. There's this big fat rabbit stuck in the hutch And so the little boy goes and opens up the rabbit hutch and Kaczynski just describes this beautiful forest that is in front of this big fat rabbit And now the rabbit kind of hobbles down Sniffs the air outside its cage and then just walks right back into its cage And then and yeah, it's it's he's pointing to this same phenomenon. I mean, this is like when you're how many times I'm sure you've heard this before Your friend has been bitching about their rotten relationship forever

And you have been saying to them. Look you this is bad for you. Like you're miserable. What are you doing? And then finally They do it In the relationship Then they call you three weeks later. They're like, we got back together You're like, what are you doing? It happens all the time All the time all the time because because it's that familiarity It's like you would rather be in a familiar hell than a brand new heaven. It feels

Safer to be in hell. It's so odd humans are really messed up But then think of the function of the guru that you're hanging out with this guy or this woman and They keep seeing the place in you where you are whole They keep no matter how neurotic or horny or scared or inadequate you feel They just keep seeing the place in you that's whole and you begin to start believing that a little bit I mean, there's this there's this one teacher of non-duality. I don't even remember his name, but they asked him

How did you get enlightened and he said well my teacher told me I wasn't I believe them? So He is obviously Ready to do the surrender trick there, but That is what's going on here that that Love is contagious those who haven't got it catch it from those who do And whether it's from a guru or it's from your dog or it's from your wife or it's from your kid Or it's from the tree in the front yard or whatever it is

That there's this process of beginning to gradually trust the Surrender into wholeness and into love There's this wonderful roomie poem where there's this guy in the poem He's complaining that I've been praying all my life and I've never heard God reply I pray and you don't say anything And and in the poem God replies to the guy the longing you express is the return message

The grief you cry out from draws you toward union your pure sadness is the secret cup You know, so so it's not like I mean, it's even this it's even talking about it's even wanting to know how to surrender even that is the response That that God loves us exactly the way we are And we've got this thing in our heads. We've got a change to be more lovable And that's what I'm talking about That's the paradox because and I think this is like, you know, what this is where I connect with the second noble truth Because you know, everyone thinks initially you hear that's like, yeah, right

You're attached to money your sex or this or that But they never think no you're attacked. You're you you've become completely attached. So it's a pain It's a suffering And this is seems ridiculous because why would I be I'm not gonna I'm take my hand away from the hot stove What are you talking about? I'm not gonna do that. I'm not this this victim your book on you. It's to become a victim Is this look luxury almost, you know, now you're a victim You don't have to do anything. You're trapped. You're in the cage. There's no way out And you don't want to deal with the possibility that

Yeah, but you know, it's what is c.s. Lewis say the gates of hell are locked from the inside. Oh This is this is hilarious. This is hilarious It's a good line. Yeah, but to to sort of Realize that. Oh my god. I am literally like I've met my dream girl Finally, yeah met my dream girl, but I'm just gonna stick it out This monster that I've been it's been cheating on me lying to me sneaking around stealing from me, you know, I definitely Uh

I don't mean that literally in my own life, you know, I but I but I'm I'm saying like when you meet this thing It's a lover. We might elect trump again What's that? We might elect trump again We did elect trump again, but they lied about the polls. Did you not do you not watch tucker carlson? I forgot about that I guess I missed that show But the point is that I mean even collectively we're doing the same thing that we're talking about it's not just you and me It's it's the collective Yeah, yes, that's it. The collective is in an abusive relationship with their shadow

And just lost in it just lying and you know, like any other abusive relationship. It's an egregore Have you ever heard that term before egregore? I have not It's a great term. It's a it's a word for When enough people believe in a thing Whatever it may be It becomes real and within the minds and then in that way it kind of takes on a life of its own outside of the minds via the Action of the collective the egregore. So in this case The the world has fallen in love with the egregore of the apocalypse

We love it. We are engaged in it. And if you compare it to it If you compare it to classic abusive relationships, it's really not that different, right, you know, and and and Because it's not real necessarily any more real than the fact. It's always been the apocalypse since the world existed the The the the thing itself the forms it takes it's the news doom scrolling fixation on

war never ending fear of disease reactionary attitudes towards Things that are being held in front of you by the priests of the egregore, you know the the media And and and it's a it's a it's a terrible love affair. What you're talking about Is the soul me, you know the that that is just Patiently waiting for you to wake the fucked up Delete the number delete that the apocalypse is number out of your phone block it

Come watch Netflix with me. Maharaj. He said be peaceful. I am always with you. I'm always in communion with you And that he's not just saying that to somebody who happened to be in india and happened to bump into him, but that that God christ buddha Whoever is it that presence that that wholeness is always there and that conversation we were having about a quarter of an hour ago about What you have to do to get there And the superego and the the inadequate self saying you've got to try harder and And suffer a lot to get there. I mean in a way it's it's so as you pointed out and we kind of

Slipped over that point we uh That to me is a really important thing that it's of it's It's so simple and so easy that we miss it. It's so familiar That it's here all the time and we don't notice it that wholeness And that we're always getting fixated with the content of experience or the or the observer on the other hand And really it's just consciousness being with experience that there's the singer seeing the scene you let go of the seat The scene and the seer all that's left is seeing they were just seeing what's going on, but there's nobody doing it

and Consciousness is creating form according to quantum mechanics without consciousness. There's no form So that it's it's all consciousness. It's all god And it's so simple. I mean from the standpoint of non-duality talk about Being aware of being aware or awareness watching awareness instead of getting lost up in all the content Or from a from a devotional standpoint of dying into love just I mean suppose Instead of paying attention to your breath You did this sort of like devotional of a positive thing where you're paying attention to unconditional love in each moment

What what does that feel like in your body that love that's permeating every cell of your body and just hanging out there The best it's like it's like holding my children the uh the You know, I like You know, if you're on your first date with somebody May tell you they're complicated You believe them You better believe if you better believe make that your last date

Make it your last day. I mean, I think that if you want to sort of like because we're dealing with like I don't a phantom But it's the phantom that gets embodied in all the myths It's the phantom of You know, Jesus in the desert. It's the phantom of mara. It's the pre-enlightenment But what what do what do they all have in common they're fucking complicated Mara is complicated satan is so complicated

Like there's contracts. You you're messing around with the devil There's like long complex contracts in the in the myth, you know, and I think that that represents The opposite of what you're talking about. It's like the world is complicated. There are forms You can't just get a colonoscopy You got to fill out a hundred forms before they will shove a tube in your ass You know what I mean? Like this is the world and so What you're talking about it's like it's so unfamiliar to people It's so unfamiliar that it that it seems

Impossible and then if we give a little life to the complexity Little intelligence, you know, well in the same way a shitty person will say that that's way out of your league, man You don't deserve that. Look at you. You're not so much of a look at you. Have you seen your ass lately? look in a mirror So Duncan when I was younger I was in very complicated relationship with very exciting Women and there's like a lot of drama and passion and excitement and complication And I'm old enough now that I'm not interested in complication. I've got a simple relationship finally in my life I mean somebody who's mature and loving

And we'd rather be happy than complicated, you know, I mean and yeah That's cool. Not just a relationship with another person, but my relationship with myself my relationship with you or you know with what I'm doing It can be simple moment to moment. I mean imagine So There are three qualities of the totally awakened mind one is clarity the knowing quality the second is spaciousness the empty nature of mind The third is naturally arising compassion and activity So like imagine that in your life Whenever you're going to do something your motivate motivation was

Compassion not do they like me? Am I getting enough? What is foxy who's going to think? But what is the compassionate thing To help me to help other people compassion is It's not an emotion. It's the open heart meeting the suffering of the world including your own suffering And and and to the extent that I'm just resting in that compassion and saying What's the what's the thing I can do right now that's most compassionate for me for Duncan for the audience How can I be in my body? How can I be expressing myself so that

The most healing happens in the world and and as I'm doing that it's not me doing it anymore then Because the heart is fundamentally spacious and sky-like So it's not me who's Doing compassion. It's I am compassion and the I even then dissolves in the compassion Yeah Yeah, I mean this to me. This is the this is where the rubber it's the road especially these days You know, it's always been true But in the worry now this like it seems like without

What people think compassion is is the opposite. I mean the kaliyuga version of compassion is rejecting people You have different Rejecting people who whose current views you have decided to make their eternal view You know for getting that at one point you also had crazy ideas So you so you don't even people are encountering each other in this terrible way Where they feel like well, yeah, I'm not being compassionate to the nazi But I'm being compassionate to all the all the people who aren't the nazi by rejecting the nazi And you know what? I mean this to me is this is where the

This is where we're running into some real trouble. I I was like god forgive me. I'm it's not right Don't take this the wrong way, but I was trying to deep fake martin with her king's voice the other day and I'm listening to this speech. He's giving on non-violence And oh my god this articulation of like it doesn't work It's not effective. It's not go. It's not going to bring us any closer to where we want to be We're outnumbered. We're outgunned We can't fight that way

It just isn't going to succeed And it's so beautiful and it's not just bullshit like You know cowardice disguised as sophistication. It's the most I mean it's It's the bravest thing I've heard he died because of saying stuff like that and and and so it's so to me You know Whenever I run into the situation of realizing my god this person thinks they're so great They feel so compassionate

They feel like they're helping the world by rejecting reviling humiliating shaming You know what I mean when yeah, they're not helping anything other than they're just pouring gas on the fire So once again, one of the qualities of open heart is connectedness and one of the qualities of grief or the quality of grief is separation

and Rumi has this great line grief Is the garden of compassion garden is this place or something wonderful beautiful tasty growth so that One big chunk of the spiritual life is transmuting separation and grief into connectedness and compassion And to me it's really impossible To heal the world through divisiveness

that that The democrats are saying the republicans are destroying the the republican the The republicans are saying the democrats are destroying it. We can't trust each other I there was some statistic. I was reading a couple days ago in the new york times something like 80 percent of republicans think that Democrats are evil or something like that and 60 some percent of democrats think that republicans are evil And that if we just let them do what they want to do they're going to destroy the country

and You know at the same time I work with dying people and In the beginning I thought my job was to rescue people to go in there and help them die better But the more I've done this I realized that Suffering is only suffering. I don't say that to people But that cancer doesn't cause suffering resistance to cancer causes suffering Republicans don't cause suffering

Resistance to republic republicans cause suffering, right? So that if if if we can begin to see how we're creating this suffering if we can begin to Realize that when you are dying donald trump and joe biden are going to be in opposite sides of your bed As you're dying smiling at you It's terrible But don't tell that to anybody ever again They're not going to be there. But the place where you automatically make that shrieking noise is going to be there in you Yeah, right. So that as long as that stuff is unconscious

It it's it's it's holding us down. It's pulling us down And that spiritual life is making conscious with that which is previously unconscious that That by seeing all this divisiveness and the thing I was saying before about dying people I kind of lost my train of thought that Sometimes you have to suffer more Before you get to the point where you say I'm willing to get out of here that like in the 12 steps the first step is you admit How messed up it is and it's out of control for you

Right, so that as long as you think I can do this no matter how screwed up it is How matter how fucked up the politics are the climate is but When we individually and collectively get to the point where we have to surrender and say I'm a patient I'm willing to suffer now. I'm willing to see this is how bad it is and I can open to this I can be with this. I can I can have compassion for this Then change in healing and connection is going to happen But you've got you've got to admit you're stuck in that place in the first place and

Collectively we haven't done that. So maybe Maybe through climate change and war and And pandemic how many billions of people have to die to get the message? I don't know Look, you know, I think the first step is stop aligning yourself with any political party I've realized I've been doing that. It's like, what am I doing? They've got me They got you ever been around a huckster In a huckster. Well, like what what they do is like you avoid some opinion this or that

And the huckster will be like, uh, you you You're smart. You're you're one of us. You know, I know if you're if you're looking for friends or you're lonely You'll be like, oh, I guess I am. What what else do you believe? You know, I think they'll tell you how we believe this that that Okay, I'll believe that too even though you might not right and you know And and this is this is to me like this stupid political Division in the world is so dumb It compartmentalizes people it frees people

And they're like, oh Whatever way you're believing now is what you're always gonna believe It tribalizes And to me like we all you want to take a bro You want like you don't want you by the way, I shrieked not because Trump and Biden were sitting at the edge of my bed because they weren't in bed with me You poor boy making making love making love to me. I just love american presidents. They're so sexy did no the the uh

Let's let go of this thing man. Let's just for a second Erase whatever the hell you think your party is or the other parties. It's really fun It's really fun to just be like, I'm neither of those things and no, I'm not a centrist and no I'm not a libertarian. No, I'm not an anarchist. I'm not a communist You guys can play that game. It's really fun I recommend it. I recommend it. I mean, I I don't mean to like did Rail the beautiful things you're saying into political commentary

But I think part of the letting go situation you're the compassion situation here is Step one is you got to stop saying you're this or that Just let go of it, right? It's really quite liberating. I mean they did a good job Making people think you're gonna be one or the other They did a really good job there both sides like congratulations. It worked. You've got everyone thinking I'm this or that It's almost heresy to say that doesn't like you know, it's supposed to say that But I think that letting go of that binary is really healthy for people

No matter what side of the aisle you're on when you're caught in that divisiveness They're suffering and the problem is people are so into the concepts. They don't know they're suffering The first step is you got to slow down enough to feel what you're feeling Yes, and like when ramda said the point it was had you said you got out you got to get out of your head into your heart As long as you're in your head, you're not feeling How you're suffering and getting down into your body getting down to your heart even down into your belly Then you begin to feel the pain you begin to feel the suffering you begin to Feel that abyss that we were talking about before

But like politics is pretty much done from the head from concepts And some concepts are appealing to somebody's the other concepts appealing to somebody else But Martin Luther King and Gandhi and Nelson Mandela and the people that really did create change Even though they got killed along the way some of them Change often happens through Some charismatic figure who is able to be nonviolent and connect with people And I mean it's a tricky thing because like in Tibet

The Dalai Lama was nonviolent toward the Chinese and they just took over the country and rape tortured and killed Right and a lot of young Tibetans feel that they should have been more violent more Aggressive in dealing with the Chinese having some asymmetrical terrorism going on there So yeah, I'm sure that the Tibetan Buddhists would really be able to repel an attack by the People's Republic of China that seems to be not very loud. I don't know how long you're gonna be able to hang on Up there It wouldn't have worked. Well, then North Vietnamese beat the American army when you think about it Yeah, but I mean we're talking about one of the most like powerful militaries on earth the last I checked that

So bettons didn't weren't exactly like a powerful military unless I just No, they weren't they they had a few they didn't have an air force. What do they have a tank? They didn't have like buddhist tanks I think they were sitting ducks. I mean, I'm sorry. I had no offense to anyone out there. I mean, I understand I mean god knows when you see what's happened And you read stories about it was like before the invasion and you see like they've got a kodak shop There now. Yeah, it's the most rancid thing you've ever seen in your life. I could understand Why people

Would think we should have started we at least we could have taken a few out But I don't think it would have been very effective based on my very limited understanding of the Chinese military versus the Tibetan non-mil No, they didn't have a military They have a name muskets Old cars and muskets Well, but going back to the point though, I mean

The buddha even said that hatred is not healed by hatred but by love alone and You know, love is kind of corny. Uh, I don't it's it's I I have these groups I teach. I have a really big one on saturdays. In fact, anybody can just Come to the living dying project living dying dot org and sign up for this free spiritual support group We have every other saturday morning But when I say the words 9 to 11 9 to 11 california time

okay But but the point and I'm doing an in-person retreat at hollyock farm up in British columbia made 10th through 14th. Oh, wow cool But the the point I'm making is that like if I talk about love and god I don't know what people are hearing because I've got my wounds about loving god from growing up as a lutheran And other people are catholic catholic and jewish and atheist and So when we use those those terms like all you need is love and the beetles say all you need is love It's a kind of a vague concept and

Can we really trust the surrender that romloff's was pointing to in the swimming pool Of trusting that we don't have to understand the bible talks about the piece that passes understanding Right that you you don't have to stand under all the stuff, you know, you can just that's there you've got your training You've got your degree. You've got your knowledge whatever it is But what we really trust is our connectedness with each other with the sangha with life with with ourselves Okay, I got something for that Oh, if you don't mind may I read a quick poem? I know we're running out of time here. This was sit

Do you mind you got a no no no go for a few more. Okay, so I um One of the first buddhist teachers was a wonderful person named tejo munich And she teaches in ashville at this place called the great tree temple Yeah Anyway, we had a wonderful like podcast on saturday and it's i'm sorry. Yeah great tree temple dot org for folks who might be interested um And she sent me this she's a zen priest

And she sent me this and she's the real deal man like and she uh after our conversation She's giving me this poem reminds me of what you just said All right, how do you say it rilke rilke. Yeah rilke Be patient towards be patient toward all that is unsolved in your heart And try to love the questions themselves like locked rooms and like books that are now written in a very foreign tongue Do not now seek the answers which cannot be given you because you would not be able to live them And the point is to live everything live the questions now Perhaps you will then gradually without noticing it live along some distant day into the answer

Wow, that's beautiful Isn't that awesome? Yeah Well, we got to keep doing these podcasts let's do another one sometime. It's always fun You know before I canceled the one I had to cancel on you. I dreamed about you the night before it's really weird We were like in some bizarre hotel with ramdas hanging out. I can't remember the details, but I didn't even I I I had I looked at my calendar. It's like holy shit. I have a podcast with ramda dad I just dreamed about him last night. So we're hanging out in the astral realm. It seems like

Let me tell you a thing that happened to me. I was leading a group on sunday Somebody else was talking on zoom and I closed my eyes and I could see mr. Tawari's face Just floating there in front of me Wow, and I just felt that now maraji said to him you should Take care of the westerners after I go or something like that And I just felt he was there supporting me such a such a sweet level Such a wonderful being Anyway, kc. Tawari. What's the doc that just came out of? I am

Brilliant disguise brilliant disguise. That's a great movie. If you ever get a chance to see it. It's just a lovely movie Ramdev, thank you so much. Will you again let people know about your weekly Meeting on saturdays as well as the upcoming retreat you have in case folks listening want to come hang out with you Yeah, yeah, well, we'll put it in the show notes Okay, great Ramdev, thank you so much. Thank you. I love our conversations. My pleasure I feed on them for weeks after I can't wait. I can't wait till the next one. Thanks a lot. Thanks for being here with me My pleasure. See you. Bye. Bye. Bye. That was Ramdev

Don't forget to go to his retreat Go to the living dying project to find out more information or you can find it at dunkitrustle.com A tremendous thank you to our sponsors And thank you for listening. I'll see you next time 92 of households that joined peloton early in the year are still active a year later because of cycling We also have a treadmill and peloton guide guide the thing that counts your reps Yeah, it turns your tv into an ai-powered personal trainer and with training programs like a stronger you peloton guide takes all the Guest work out of working out 92 stick with it

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