Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 559: Eben Alexander

Episode Date: April 1, 2023

Dr. Eben Alexander, neurologist and author, joins the DTFH! Check out Eben's books, including Proof of Heaven and (most recently) Living in a Mindful Universe, available wherever you get your books! You can also learn more about Eben on his website, EbenAlexander.com. Go there for his upcoming events and to find his other books as well! Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg. This episode is brought to you by: Athletic Greens - Visit AthleticGreens.com/Duncan for a FREE 1-year supply of vitamin D and 5 FREE travel packs with your first purchase! ZipRecruiter - Try for FREE at ZipRecruiter.com/Duncan

Moonshine dance line, brown bus on time, kind of bare-horse hair, wrestled down a brown bear, three-spig chasing, hammock laying, U-turn, bug burn, butter churn, devil's burn, GPT, tell McLeese how to make an EMP, detonate, recreate a white Christian ethno-state. No time for the latest to read,

they're too busy cleaning, breeding, needing more speed from me. Daddy, can I have more speed? Time till you finish making me dinner. I'm sure you all have already heard that. Of course, that is the very first transmission ever received by humanity from the future. That comes from the CERN particle accelerator.

They opened up a wormhole and connected to a radio station from the future. That's actually three months from now. We have got a wonderful podcast for you today. I imagine many of you have heard of today's guest, Dr. Eben Alexander. He wrote a bestseller called Proof of Heaven. This is a neurologist who got a horrific form of meningitis,

got in his brain, went into a coma, and had a near-death experience. I had no idea how much near-death experiences have been studied and how much data there is out there and how absolutely weird they are. You know, you hear stories of these things and if you're like me, you probably write them off as some kind of hallucinatory experience,

some kind of way the brain reacts to being engulfed into nothingness, but as it turns out, these experiences that have been reported forever by people all around the planet might be a little bit more than just some last desperate attempt that the human brain is making to protect us from the horror of eternal annihilation. My dear loves, before we jump into this,

I would love to invite you to subscribe to my Patreon. It's at patreon.com forward slash DTFH and I would really love it if you would come and see me next weekend at Hilarities in Milwaukee. You can find the ticket links at DuncanTrussell.com. I'm coming to a lot of places. I'm going to be at Charlie Goodnights in Raleigh. I'm coming back to Sweet Portland.

I'm going to be at the Helium Comedy Club there and many, many more dates. Again, those are all at DuncanTrussell.com. Okay, here we go. With us today is Dr. Eben Alexander. You can find everything about him at ebenalexander.com. He has written more books than just Proof of Heaven. His most recent one, Living in a Mindful Universe

is now available everywhere. If you love this conversation, please check out his website and tune in. He was an amazing guest and I really took a lot away from this conversation. I hope you do too. So everybody, welcome to the DTFH. Dr. Eben Alexander.

Dr. Alexander, welcome to the DTFH. I am thrilled that I get a chance to spend some time with you. How are you doing today? I'm doing great, Duncan. It's great to be here and I appreciate very much your having me on. Well, look, we, for those of you who are familiar with Proof of Heaven, I'm sure you all recognize

that if we wanted to, we could spend the entire podcast talking about Dr. Alexander's near-death experience. But I have some other topics that I really am excited to chat about with him. So for folks who are, who maybe are just meeting Dr. Alexander today, you probably heard of his bestselling book, Proof of Heaven. He is one of a multitude of people who has experienced

what we are now calling NDEs, near-death experiences. But maybe something that differentiates him from so many others is his background as a doctor. And I think it would be safe to say, Dr. Alexander, that prior to your experience, you had a more secular world view that many doctors have that didn't include the mystical. And so the fact that you were given one of these experiences with your medical background and, of course,

with your comrades, I think, is what really sparked a lot of people's interests, which I guess is sad if we depend on the medical establishment to determine the validity of human experiences. That's another podcast altogether. But still, thanks to this crazy confluence of who you are and what happened to you and the people who analyze what happened to you, you have produced what I would call

one of the most convincing explanations of the near-death experience that I am aware of. And that is, no doubt, why your book is the best seller. And also, it's an incredible book. It's well-written. So Dr. Alexander, with all that being said, do you think you could summarize what happened to you when you went into that coma, when you had meningitis?

Well, absolutely. And you do bring up a very important point. And that is, it's really the details of my illness that are so important. And they've been corroborated in a medical case report on my medical records by three doctors who were not involved in my care, but were fascinated by my recovery.

I'll get into that a little bit later. But yes, I had spent the first 54 years of my life honing a very kind of conventional scientific worldview. I taught neurosurgery at Harvard Medical School for 15 years. Thought I understood something about how brain, mind, and consciousness work. But all that changed very dramatically.

November 10, 2008, woke up at 4.30 in the morning with horrific back pain, headache, soon grand mal seizures lapsing into coma. I spent the next seven days deep in coma, from which my doctors initially predicted I had about a 10% chance of survival. By the end of that week in coma on three powerful intravenous antibiotics on a ventilator

for the whole seven days, that estimate had gone down to 2%, with no chance of recovery. And that is why my story is so amazing, because I came back from that. And even though my brain was really wrecked when I first woke up, I had basically a complete recovery over two months, which is inexplicable. Now to get to the essence of your question,

what happened to me during that time? Important to point out, one of the atypical features of my near-death experience, this is something you don't often find, was amnesia. I had no memory of Evan Alexander's life. I had no knowledge of Earth, humans, language. It really was an empty slate. And it was really over months and years after my coma

that it became clear to me why that kind of empty slate was so important. It's mainly because there was some tremendous lessons I had to kind of unlearn and relearn about the nature of reality. And that was the nature of that amnesia. But it all started in this primitive course, unresponsive realm, the earthworms I view,

like being in dirty jello, kind of foreboding when I discuss it. But at the time, given my amnesia, I was perfectly fine with it. I mean, it was the way existence is. It's all I knew. Luckily, I was rescued from that by this slowly spinning white light that came packaged with a perfect musical melody.

And that white light served as a portal up into a higher, richer, much more real world that I call the Gateway Valley. And in fact, the Gateway Valley was an intersection between the material realm, our earthly, you know, this universe, material universe, and our spiritual universe. And this is a region where we go through life reviews, where we encounter souls of departed loved ones,

planned next incarnations, all that kind of thing unfolds in that realm. But it was much more real than this world. That's the thing that most people don't understand. And hence, part of the problem of the ineffability, the fact that we don't really have words to explain these experiences, because our language is great for a trip to Disney World, but not so great for a trip

like this. Turns out, in that beautiful Gateway Valley, I wasn't alone. I was a speck of awareness on a butterfly wing among millions of other butterflies looping and spiraling in these vast formations. And there was a lovely young woman beside me, sparkling blue eyes, high forehead, high cheekbones,

broad smile, soft brown hair, framing her lovely face. She was dressed in this kind of simple peasant garb, as I called it, although it was very colorful. And her garb really matched that of what I witnessed in the valley down below us, because in this Gateway Valley, there was this verdant, very rich, fertile valley surrounded by forests, sparkling waterfalls into crystal blue pools.

But there were thousands of beings dancing in that valley. And when I came back from all this and wrote it all up, I said there were souls between lives. And all the joy and merriment in that valley was being fueled because up above were these swooping orbs of angelic choirs leaving sparkling golden trails against that blue-black, velvety sky.

And there were emanating chants and anthems, hymns, that would just thunder through my awareness and completely enliven that entire scene. Now, early on in this part of the journey, there was a soft summer breeze that blew through. And that summer breeze, I called in my early writings to the breath of God or the divine wind. That was my first knowing and kind of connection

with that God-force of pure love that was all through all of these realms. But it was my reminder of the reality that that was really the source of my very conscious awareness. Okay, can we pause there just for a while? I'm sorry, doctor, can we pause there just for one second? Now, let's imagine we take just what you just said and go back to before you had this experience.

Maybe you're in Harvard and someone presents this story to you while you're looking at MRIs. I don't know what they would use to look at your brain, but you're looking at the damage. You're just like, here's a brain that has gone through the trauma that your brain went through. And you hear this person relating this very, very detailed,

very coherent, very like beautiful picturesque story. And you're looking at that brain. What would you think? Well, actually, we can answer that very definitively because of all the medical details in the case report written on my medical records. And that came out in September 2018, Journal of Nervous and Mental Disease,

is by Dr. Surbhi Khanna, Lauren Moore, and Bruce Grayson. But the points that they make is based on the neurologic exams, which is really the best piece of evidence about just how badly my brain was impacted by this. The CT and MRI scans help because they show that this process was global, that there was no part of my brain that was spared.

And that's their value, but truly the most important medical data about predicting my outcome and how ill I was were the neurologic exams. And they very clearly made me so sick from this. And with the scan data also showing that the entire sixth layer of the neocortex throughout my brain was so inflamed that there was a lot of edema, a lot of fluid swelling,

even deep inside the brain, deep to these layers in the neocortex, it basically the conclusion that the doctors who looked at this medical information came to is this brain could not have harbored any kind of dream or hallucination. At best, that brain could have harbored the most primitive rudiments of consciousness.

There is no way, given the construction of the brain, the way the neocortex is wired, that that brain could have come up with any kind of rich, extraordinary, ultra-real, multidimensional, memorable, detailed, life-transforming set of experience, which is what I had. And this is why the scientific community takes my story so seriously.

The medical... This is like one of my kids pouring orange, like pouring a gallon of orange juice into my PlayStation and me playing God of War and everything's running perfectly, even though orange juice is just dripping out the sides. Any technician who looked at that would be impossible. Okay. Sorry to cut you off.

Please continue. No, that's... But it's a very good point. I mean, in other words, what these doctors were saying was this brain could not... And that's what haunted me in the months after my coma. I was going back to the hospital. Now, my neurosurgical knowledge was still returning because it took about two months for all my prior semantic knowledge,

cosmology, physics, neuroscience, neurosurgery, for all that to come back online. And during those two months, I was going in for follow-up care at the hospital, talking with my doctors, looking at my scans, medical records, trying to make sense of it, and none of it lined up because it was just impossible that I could have any such experience

given the damage to my brain. And again, this is the main reason that I'm sorry for our puppies. They're very... Are you kidding? I thought, did you hear mine? It's there synced up. My poodle was just yapping outside, perfectly timed with podcasts.

It's like he has access to my calendar. I was like, oh, I need to join in. They're telepathically connected. So anyway, thank you. You're welcome. Well, no, I would love to hear... I would love for you to continue your story. I just wanted to emphasize

how absolutely bizarre what happened to you is based on our understanding of consciousness, the neocortex, the human brain. Absolutely. Well, see, that's what haunted me. You know, in fact, that's why I ended up writing the book, Proof of Heaven, is once I realized

the deep truth behind my experience. And of course, that is all told in the book, Proof of Heaven, as we get towards the very end of it. But that's one of the biggest points it's made by the three doctors who wrote that medical case report. But another very important point that they make is when they submitted the case report,

the peer review editors, scientific editors of that journal, challenged them and said, wait a minute, this case is absurd. That's the word they used. It's unprecedented in medical literature to have somebody this ill from gram-negative, bacterial meningitis, encoma for a week to then end up making a full recovery.

How do you explain it? And the three doctors who wrote the case report said, it's because he had a near-death experience. That explains this kind of unprecedented kind of recovery. And they said that because they were aware of other cases of NDE's. For example, Anita Morjani, who wrote the book, Dying to Be Me,

had an advanced stage four lymphoma that just disappeared after she came back from a profound near-death experience. Likewise, Dr. Mary C. Neal had over 30 minute warm water drowning in a kayaking accident in Chile. She wrote a book called The Heaven in Back. And our three cases are all beautiful examples of people with medical evidence

that they should have just died from their experience. And yet, when associated with this profound spiritual experience, it allows them to come back with a tremendous amount of healing. And that, for me as a neurosurgeon, as a doctor, is one of the most important lessons we can take away from this is the spiritual power we all have in coming into wholeness and healing.

And that, to me, is the most important lesson of my journey. But of course, it all has a tremendous amount to do with love and kindness and compassion. That's how this healing is accomplished. We can't achieve that kind of healing if we're running around with a bunch of hatred and selfishness and greed in our hearts. But it's by being loving and caring for self and others

that we can really harvest that beautiful love of the universe and bring it into our lives as a form of wholeness. And it allows us to share that healing, wholeness, and love with others. It seems to point to this correlation between a feeling of being isolated, cut off from any mystical universe that somehow that experience could lead to so many diseases

and disorders and just a general malaise, if nothing else. And it seems like you all are reminded of sort of your true geography or where you really are in relation to everything else. And somehow just that gnosis or whatever you want to call it has a physiological component. That is very strange. I understand coming back from an experience like that

with a spiritual attitude, with less clinginess, with all the things that go along with desperately trying to protect your mortal, finite, relatively tiny existence. But the physiological part of it, that is a real chin scratcher. I mean, what is that saying that you're, why would your body, your physical body

upon experiencing something like this suddenly just be able to fix itself and not just fix itself, but fix itself quickly. Like it shouldn't be so fast. Like what is going on there? Well, it is absolutely astonishing how quickly this kind of healing can happen. But it really has to do, I think what it tells us,

it's kind of a measure of the kind of high degree of what I would say is kind of ego toxicity we have in our society of kind of me-focused, self-focused, selfishness, greed, narcissism. Those things are horribly toxic. And they end up damaging your life if you're a victim of that kind of approach to life. And I would actually attribute a lot of that kind

of egotistical behavior to broadly, to our cultural buy-in to scientific materialism. Materialism in science is basically reductive materialism which means you break everything down into the component parts like subatomic particles, atoms, molecules, et cetera. And that's how you figure out how it all works. And of course, that implies there's some kind

of bottom-up causality. But the ultimate problem there is this notion of materialism is that everything's separate. And when you combine that in the 20th century with a lot of the discussion around Darwinian evolution and the fact that even though Darwin was wise enough, for example, in his book, The Descent of Man, he uses the phrase, survival of the fittest twice,

but he uses the word love 98 times. It wasn't Darwin who got us on that bad pathway. It was very militant atheists who wanted to weaponize evolution like Thomas Huxley in England and really make competition this huge giant battle prize that it became with our social sciences, economic systems, things like that in the mid-20th century.

And a lot of that has led our whole society into this crazy ego toxicity. And you can see how bad ego toxicity is at large because addiction is absolutely a manifestation of ego toxicity and kind of this warped focus on self and not acknowledging kind of the higher good. And it gets us all into trouble. God bless you, Athletic Greens, for reigning your sweet,

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and five free travel packs with your first purchase. Just go to athleticgreens.com forward slash Duncan. That's athleticgreens.com forward slash Duncan. Allow the sweet, sacred green rain of Athletic Greens to fall upon the fields of your DNA. God bless you, Athletic Greens. You can see how bad ego toxicity is at large because addiction is absolutely a manifestation of ego toxicity

and kind of this warped focus on self and not acknowledging kind of the higher good and it gets us all into trouble and that's why this huge wave of deaths due to opioid addiction and other addictions and what I would say is the awakening that we're talking about here and now, the awakening of humanity to the primacy of mind and to the fact that we are all truly interconnected. So if you hurt another, you're hurting yourself

and that's a very concrete observation about the nature of reality and it's something that comes especially from my familiarity with the world of near-death experiences because the vast majority of near-death experiences will tell you that life review which happens anywhere from 25 to 50 percent of NDE cases is very strongly a message of the golden rule being written into the fabric of the universe. Treat others that you would like to be treated.

The reason I say that is the life review as commonly described is much more of a reliving of events than of remembering. That's a very important point because it lets you know this is not just vague access to memories you go through. It's actually a reliving of events of your life that allow you to set the record straight, make amends, etc. This brings us to a question I have for you that I don't want to say troubled me, but kind of has troubled me.

How do you know that this experience right now isn't the life review? Sometimes I wonder to myself, is this life review that people talk about which you just described, is it so... It's more than just a memory. It's not like I'm sitting on the couch thinking about yesterday. It seems to be in 3D VR like simulated reality. You are there for the whole thing. So what would be the difference between the life review

and the current human experience where we're at right now? Well, I'll tell you the other major observation about life reviews in the scientific literature on NDE is not only that they're more of a reliving than a remembering, but most especially, and this is in about 75% of cases from Bruce Grayson at least, is that you relive it from the emotional perspective of others around you. So in other words, when we live this life forward,

you're living it kind of from your ego and higher soul perspective where you're a being that interacts with other beings. But in the life review, you actually become some of the other beings to be on the receiving end. And that's the best way to teach, you know, how to behave. And that's why so many people come back from a near death experience and they're far more concerned about the higher good and treating others with love than they might have been

before. And it's really because we're all truly sharing the one mind. That's where we go in our third book, Living in a Mindful Universe, as we go deeply into this notion of the one mind and how we're all ultimately facets of the diamond of the one mind. And that's the way I like to describe it. The diamond is the one mind.

And each one of us is a facet. So we're never separate from it at all. We're never separate from it at all. And that's where, you know, I think Indy Ears kind of bring a unified message that we're all in this together. And we're here to take care of it. And that's something that's been kind of lost in our modern society.

So the distinction here, it seems to be between localized and non localized consciousness. So the general assumption that most people have is I exist within my body, within my brain. Once the body shuts down, the me is gone to quote Dawkins, death is the anesthesia that saves us from the pain of life. Turn off the computer. It's over.

This is the general assumption and many people who make this assumption, they're basing it not on any real research that they've done, but just what they have seen skeptics or scientific materialists put out there. They, they, they, and what you're talking about and what many others are talking about, not just Indy people have experienced Indy Ears, but I mean mystics throughout the ages have pointed to more of a kind of oceanic consciousness within which we are

sort of these like floating sugar cubes that are dissolving into the thing and, and that, you know, sometimes when I'm looking at like, I don't know, this seems ridiculous, but slime molds, are you kidding me when you're looking at what a slime mold can do? There's no brain there. When you're looking at beings that don't have the neocortex that don't seem to have the hardware to perform some of the

activities that they perform. It makes me think, okay, this, this can't be something just based on the brain. There, there, there seems to be just what you're talking about that we're drifting within this field or something like that. And so, and, and, and thinking that you're not drifting in that field, well, that's the path to selfishness. That's the path to war.

That's the aggression makes a lot more sense. If you're you and I'm me, and we're not sharing this Buddha mind or whatever you want to call it. So what based based on your experience, but not just your experience, your familiarity with research, what is science saying about non locality of consciousness? Is this idea becoming more accepted or is it continuing to be something that like the scientific materialists think

of as pseudoscience? Well, I would say the scientific materialists are basically Newtonian determinists who have no clue what quantum physics is actually telling us about free will and the nature of emergent reality. And so scientific materialism is actually going the way of the dodo. It's going extinct and that's because anyone who studies

consciousness in the modern era is coming to realize that there are horrific problems with materialism. That is the notion that brain creates consciousness because only the material or physical world exists. And I work literally with hundreds of scientists around the world and I would steer people if you want some resources, go to scientificandmedical.net or go to Galileocommission.org.

Those are both groups that I work with and they can educate you very quickly up to speed. Now, our third book Living in a Mindful Universe goes a long way towards educating people about the synthesis of science and spirituality and to answer your question about this notion of kind of the primordial mind, the cosmic mind, I would tell you that the evidence is only getting stronger and stronger that that is the case, that there is truly one mind that we

all share and therefore the brain serves as kind of a filter that allows that primordial consciousness to come into us in a way that we interpret when we're living these lives in these bodies, we interpret as being, you know, this is my consciousness, nobody else has access to it and I don't have access to anyone else's consciousness, but that's not true. Telepathy is very real.

Geely on Playfairs book on twin telepathy where he talks about 35% of identical twins having powerful, documentable telepathic communications and of course telepathy goes far beyond just twins, but it's very easy to demonstrate in twins. Look at remote viewing, you know, the science of remote viewing. Now Wikipedia being the everybody's encyclopedia,

which means any nut can say any silly thing they want to Wikipedia is one of them on remote viewing. They say I'm sad to say a desecrated Wikipedia from time to time. Go ahead. That's another. But you know, I mean, I go in there and post ridiculous. I love it.

Go to the most serious Wikipedia posts and you could just put in anything you want and just see how long before a frustrated Wikipedia editor has to take it out and make a note. Another idiot is infiltrated. Let's compare then Wikipedia with Jessica Utz. She was the head of the American Statistical Association 2015.

She had done serious science and statistical analysis investigating precognition, investigating remote viewing the ability to discern information across time and space. And she said that scientifically this stuff would be fully accepted as absolutely real long ago. If it weren't something that pushed so many people's buttons, you know about spirituality about, you know,

a soul and stuff like that and people just recoil. But the reality is the data is right there supporting the reality of all this. You know, mind is not something that we just have in our own little head. And for example, when you read near-death experiences like Anita Borjani, when she was deep in her NDE that was induced by a severe case of lymphoma, she was able to mind meld

with her brother who was flying from India to Hong Kong supposedly to be attending her funeral. And likewise, her father who had passed over years before and her father's spirit. So in that mental realm of the NDE, you have access to the living that are at a distance and across time. You have access to those who've left the physical plane. So in NDE, you have access to this much broader mind that

we all share. And in our book, Living in a Mindful Universe, we go into great detail about all of this. And you know, not just the quantum physics, which is very relevant to the notion of one mind, but also neuroscience, the hard problem of consciousness and the binding problem and philosophy of mind and all this evidence for non-local consciousness out of parapsychology.

Every bit of it adds up to tell us the brain is a filter for this non-local consciousness and that all of emergent physical reality is due to events in that mental realm, not the other way around. So the mental, spiritual and mental create the physical, not the physical creating them. Right. Now, you know, I don't want to get sinister here, but sometimes

I will get drawn into Gnosticism a little bit, the notion of the Demiurge, the idea of there being a kind of shadowy sort of momentum in the universe. And like the egregore of the material universe would want people to believe exactly what you just described. They would, if it would, it doesn't want to just be a product of mind. It wants to be the King, Dominion, power, control.

And in the moment you experience some of the things that you've experienced or trust people enough to believe that the reality you're describing is more accurate than the one you might think you're in, then the world sort of loses its hold, doesn't it? It's the fear, the, you know, the, the attachment, the entanglement with protecting your stuff and all of those things. What's there to protect if you're just, it's just your mind.

If it's, you know, with quantum physics, you know, it seems like what's happening in this realm of science that you're discussing is being mirrored across the board. I mean, because, you know, any, everyone's heard a hippie yapping about quantum physics and you know, you don't know anything, you don't know anything. You wouldn't want to, you wouldn't know a quirk from a ham sandwich. Stop talking about quantum physics, but then you look at

the science coming out, the Nobel Prize that I think was just given to someone based on quantum entanglement, spooky math. You look at like, no, no, no, this is no longer hot tub conversation when you're coming up on MDMA. This is quantifiable and, and, and useful in the sense that people are using this new understanding of the material universe to send information and that this new understanding of the material universe is going to lead to computers that

are going to completely, radically transform the way we do everything. So this is wild to, to see how it's emerging in this case. Um, but I want to, I want to ask you, um, a little bit about that idea of being able to reach out to people or however you would term it from that space after you've let go of your body, because I think all of us who've lost, lost loved ones have had that very real experience of, oh my God,

they're here. They're in the room. Like not like I wish they were in the room, not, but literally like, why does it feel like they're standing next to me? Why does it feel like they're talking to me? Can you talk a little bit about that? Like, how does that work? If we are in this valley and we decide to go back into the

human realm for whatever crazy reason, how could it, like, is it that we're existing in all of these states simultaneously? Or something. Can you describe the cosmology of, uh, like how the map of this, I can't figure it out. Like, you know, reincarnation. Okay. So you've taken another birth, but you seem to still be here.

Well, I saw it all as, yeah, I can. I saw it all really as a vision deep in my journey. You know, when we were, I was sharing my story with you a little while ago, we got, you know, to kind of the end of the Gateway Valley, but I, I never really said where I went beyond that. I went to the core route where all of four dimensional space time collapsed down all of that spiritual realm that Gateway

Valley, including a whole different temporal orderly, very important deep time or meta time is the way that things work there. So for example, that's how you can see your whole life at once because you're in a different temporal dimension that completely contains Earth time within it so that you can have simultaneous exposure to all the events of your life. And so this is kind of giving us an a glimpse of just how

grand those spiritual realms can be and how our perspective is so broad. And but in my journey into the core realm, which was as far as I went and then I would cycle back down to these other realms and repeat my journey through, but the core realm was an infinite inky blackness filled to overflowing with the divine love of that creative source. That's why I first realized that the very source of my

conscious awareness was that infinitely loving God force at the core of the universe. But I had one of many of the visions I had there as part of the lessons I learned was one that I call the Indra's net vision and this was one where I saw each and every one of us as a eternal soul basically represented as a weaving thread in this fantastic tapestry that was interwoven of all the threads of sentient life, you know, throughout all of eternity

all weaving their way towards learning and teaching these lessons and it and it was not and the weave had a lot to do with reincarnation. So in other words, just the kind of motion of the weave had to do with being incarnate and then between lives incarnate between lives and that all of it was leading towards this Golden Center and it was when I read Pierre Taylor de Chardin's book The Phenomenon of Man about a year after my coma where

he talked about evolution being a real, you know, like not just Darwinian evolution but the evolution of all consciousness throughout the cosmos and that's what I realized my Indra's net vision was showing me so beautifully and it was showing me that kind of viscosity I would call it of our soul lines so that we tend to kind of keep memories that are related to us in our soul group of with our soul as we go through these things.

There's also a process of program for getting so for example when you review the scientific literature on reincarnation for example at uvadops.org University of Virginia Division of Perceptual Studies where they have more than 1700 solved cases where they actually identified the person who lived before that's described by the child. You'll realize how extensive this literature is. It's huge and there's just absolutely no way that it's

kind of you know made up or imagine this stuff is amazing and but the thing is there's program for getting is Ian Stevenson and now Jim Tucker who does that work at UVA will tell you you have to harvest these memories before age six or seven because the memories tend to be over covered as we go into adulthood. So most of us as teenagers don't have past life memories or memories of of between lives etc and it turns out there's

also a phenomenon called the amnesia of childhood which is a related issue and that has to do with most people will say they don't remember details of events that happened before age six or seven because of the amnesia though how unfortunate that that's where all of our memories of past lives in between lives used to live but now gone into program for getting they can be recovered and transpersonal psychology through hypnosis through having a near death experience

yourself where past life memories might be revisited hypnotic regression is a therapeutic modality for getting back into past lives. But you know it's basically I'm just painting a picture of us is much bigger than just some little ego mind living birth to death in this incarnation. I would say that thousands of people who contacted me about proof of heaven after it came out loved it because in them

it awakened a memory a similar memory of a similar journey. So this program forgetting is pretty serious stuff but we can overcome it and this is where meditation is so important because I would tell your listeners you don't have to have a near death experience to know everything I know and more about the reality of these afterlife all you have to do is put in the time to do you know some deep prayer or meditation centering prayer or meditation where you're getting

rid of your ego mind. That's the most important goal of meditation is recognize that little voice in your head is not who you are. Thank you Zip recruiter for supporting this episode of the DTF age. You know I love podcasting but from time to time I think wonder what it would be like to start another business like maybe one of those bouncy castle businesses that seems like

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The most important goal of meditation is recognizing that little voice in your head is not who you are. I love how Michael Singer is with the untethered soul calls the voice in the head the annoying roommate. Yeah, that's good. That's a nice way to put it that annoying roommate can make a request ask a question of whatever when I go into meditation but then that little ego voice goes into time out because there are aspects of us that are far grander of our

conscious awareness the same ones that expand tremendously when we die when we leave the physical brain and body once and for all well we can expand those within meditation and centering prayer to and that's what I would encourage people to do it's a huge part of our book living in a mindful universe it's what my partner Karen Newell who co-authored that book her company sacred acoustics dot com is huge and providing binaural beat brainwave entrainment which is what I've

been using daily for the last 10 years plus to return to my indie to cultivate relationships with the various denizens and guides and spirits and that infinitely loving God force meditation is a very powerful tool for each and every one of us to try and honor and cultivate that kind of higher soul that's connected with others and it's involved with the love of the universe to help bring the higher good to all and the more any one of us to vote our lives to that

kind of thing including the going within because that's an important part but even more important of course is how we live our lives based on those lessons this is how we can really you know grow forward and make this world a far better place do you think though that maybe there is a I don't know a sort of a good reason for that amnesia and you know anyone who's had kids has probably heard them just happily talk about what is obviously their past lives with no inhibition

they don't understand that you're not supposed to have a memory of being an an Indian child who got hit by a car or whatever the particular memory may be it's incredible it's astounding when you hear it but do you think maybe part of the reason that amnesia kicks in and by the way you know this is mentioned in Greek Greek mythology what's the river leaf I think is what it's called you drink from it you forget your previous life what's that river sticks as you cross leaf is

the one you drink from and you were before that's it leaf you're right it's certainly well promoted in Kabbalah Jewish mysticism this notion of the angel touching you in the memories of your past lives going away I think it gives us skin in the game and let's just say that this stage in development and by this stage I mean these few thousand years of the name of the game is really for us to come into a knowing of the oneness we share through the binding force of love and I

think that's the primary lesson of near-death experiences and that's really where the the science of consciousness is headed is to a wide support of this kind of notion of the one mind and this binding force of love that's so apparent to near-death experiences and helping us to realize we need to grow into that our little self-focused toxic ego world with all the addiction and narcissism and those kind of problems that we see today is kind of a symptom of where our culture

has really gone off the rails in the last few centuries and I would say that this really gives us kind of skin in the game this program forgetting and yet I think that our culture is reaching a point with the spread of this kind of information this kind of thinking that I believe we will evolve beyond that kind of demand of skin in the game to a much more enlightened spiritual awareness that will allow all of us to know the power we have to come into

wholeness and healing and that will be a magical era indeed because all physical mental and emotional illness is ultimately spiritual in some sense and by spiritual I don't mean anything that demands religion for me fact when you realize that 90% of near-death experiences come back to this world whether they were atheist or whatever before believing in some form of a loving God force. I'm not going to lay that at any one religion because it's accepting of all

religions that can believe in love, kindness, compassion, mercy, acceptance, etc. So and that's a huge part of it is this realization that you come back having been through that knowing the reality of our interconnected spiritual nature and that it's all about love and the power of love to bring healing to our lives. And that's what I think this is all about. I mean, when you look at the world today, this world is in a little bit of trouble, you know, our addiction to

fossil fuels, climate change, which is all on the verge of being irreversible. If we don't wake up pretty darn soon and start doing the right thing about it pollution, toxic, you know, plastics twice the size of Texas floating in Pacific Ocean. We've really got to change our ways. Homo sapiens, the what the wise, you know, species is on the verge of kind of driving to extinction a million other species. So this is why this awakening is so important. We need to know if

you are sometimes okay, sometimes people pretend they're not killing themselves, but they're definitely killing themselves. Sometimes you know what I'm talking about like people who are like drinking themselves to death or people who are, you know, sort of disguising their annihilation as a form of like very intense recreation or something, but they're melting their organs are melting, they're dying and they're in

there and it's almost like they have the part of themselves that hasn't forgotten is like, okay, let's just get out of here. Let's cancel this particular incarnation, get back to the butterfly Valley, head on into the deep golden Omega Point Love Center and we'll try again next time. And this is I think what is paradoxical about what you're talking about the skin in the game thing is that we do even with skin in the game, even with many people not having a real

firm belief that there's anything after this. In other words, this is all we got. You got to make it work. We're still destroying the dang thing. So and also in a commonality in these nds, you hear people are like, I'm not going back. It's like, you know, when your kid gets a day off from school, God for big Christmas break and then they got to go back to school and no hell no, I don't want to go back. This seems to be the a lot of people say like, come on, let me just stay here.

What's the point of that place? So should we get this a new perspective and not just a perspective that people have taken ayahuasca or DMT or ketamine or whatever the psychedelic or people have had an NDE or people have meditated. But you know, if it spreads through all of the modes of understanding the universe. Why? Why stay here? Wouldn't there be a wave of suicides? Every time credit card bills came in, wouldn't people just be like, I'll go to the butterfly Valley. Fuck you,

AmEx. I'm out. Well, I can tell you my my experience, you know, not not only what I went through personally, but talking with thousands of other NDE years over the last 15 years, reading a tremendous amount of these reports, and also broadening beyond just the NDE literature about kind of the spiritual realm. I believe that this is where we get the work done. You know, we don't get the work done over there. And so this is

where we really grow. And that's a very kind of important consideration of it all. And in fact, I would say I've heard many accounts of people saying that basically, or I would say that souls are chomping at the bit to get in here. This earth realm is a place where they can do some real work. And they know they're going to be temporarily dumbed down, that they're going to have to do some serious work to recover the that kind of spiritual wisdom. But the thing is over multiple

incarnations, a certain amount of it keeps sticking more and more, and you get to be a more and more advanced soul. And so sooner or later, you're coming back here completely altruistic, philanthropic and just working for the higher good. That's ultimately what ends up happening. But but don't diss the earth realm and earth school, because this is really where the progress is made. Oh, I love it here. I mean, this is I'm quite happy with the

earth realm. And you know, anytime I've had the grand vision from psychedelics, and the familiarity and all of it, I'm very happy to be back here. But just some people I don't think are enjoying it as much. Now, okay, so this, there's something I'm really excited to say to those who are not enjoying it so much. Might I offer that if you're so busy, you know, being the ego and the me me me and grabbing for this, that and the other, as opposed to, you know, seeing the higher good

appreciating how you can show love to other people help the least, the last and the lost, serve the higher good. And I suspect that that a lot of people who find, you know, this earth school to be dull and they want to get off. Maybe they're just too of self focused. And maybe they would benefit from kind of opening up and helping others and find that that actually is a very rich kind of source of taking your next breath and to keep doing that day after day. It's

beautiful lesson that I think most indie ears learn from their experience. They come back much more focused on the higher good and on love and on compassion. And in fact, most indie ears come back more spiritual, but less religious. I think that's a very important point. Religion can be great, but it awakens spirituality in us. But only if it's a rich, authentic, heartfelt spirituality that honors the higher good and love and kindness and compassion. You know, otherwise

quite as useful. So that's really kind of the focus for indie ears. And that's why I think all of us can grow through this. Because in fact, all of us are indie ears. We just have not remembered in many cases. I never looked at it that way. That's wild. Yeah, right. Of course. Yes. Based on this cosmology, we've done it. Why proof of heaven? So many people told me a reminder them of something and awakened in them their own journey that they'd

forgotten. You know, ever since they were a kid. So I was watching YouTube. That happened when I was watching a clip. Of you and you know, whatever that amnesia is, I just remember it was very interesting. I've only had that a few like, you know, I if you've ever said if you ever smoke DMT, sorry to ask, you don't have to answer that, by the way, if you ever smoked, I'm I'll tell you what, it's an important question. Because, you know, many people like Sam Harris said, Oh, Evan

Alexander just had a DMT trip. And they all just assumed it was a DMT trip. So I took it on myself as a scientific researcher to work with professional and did a dose escalation trial of five methoxy DMT, which is the most powerful form of that particular plant medicine. And what I can tell you is that that was looking through a tiny keyhole of definitely into the same realm. But I prefer the panoramic penthouse view I had from my organic natural near death experience to the

psychedelic experience. And in fact, something we talk about right about often is how meditation, I believe it's a better way. Now you can supplement that with with those serotonin two way substances like psilocybin, LSD, DMT. But ultimately, I think far better true soul work is accomplished in meditation. And, you know, interesting work now with some of those psychedelics is beautiful. For example, from Roland Griffith, said John Talkins, using psilocybin magic

mushrooms, one or two doses, that's all you need, you don't need to keep taking it. That's the interesting thing. It serves as a catalyst. But he's used it in the management of addictions, especially alcoholism, nicotine, nicotine is one of the worst physiologic addictions we face with great success, you know, in 70 to 80% of people. Likewise, he's used psilocybin to manage debilitating fear of death in terminal cancer patients, right? Very effectively. And and

again, one dose, it doesn't take a lot. And what I would argue is meditation can give you the same thing and an even gentler and ultimately more powerful fashion. So I'm a I agree. I mean, no one wants to hear that none of the I agree with you. I remember hearing Ram Dass talk about that when I was in my deep psychedelic phase and giving a big old eye roll to that like, give me a break sitting around, you're not going to get that breakthrough experience. But in

my old age, I think it's, it's that you know, the thing you're talking about is like a viewfinder, you want to go to the Eiffel Tower? Do you want to go see the Eiffel Tower or you want to see a viewfinder of the Eiffel Tower? Which do you prefer? And and I think that's what meditation offers also a more stable platform, I think, because the psychedelics are also unpredictable and they have their own personalities, and they add their own filters to the experience. Okay, before I

knew this would happen, we barely scratched the surface here, but I would love to hear your thoughts. We can always talk. Oh, you're going to regret saying that get prepared for infinite emails. Well, I would strongly advise including my partner Karen Dole if we do that because she brings a tremendous amount of wisdom to the conversation. That's what we'll do next time now. Okay, so love that man.

Here is the, I guess this is going to be the last little thing we get to talk about, but I am obsessed with AI. I just am so fascinated by the way it is impacting our culture and it's only been around for at least the current iterations been around for maybe 14 days or something like that. And already it's transforming so many industries. But what I'm really interested in about it is that it's challenging people's idea of what is consciousness, what is sentience. And the

definition or the way I think people are trying to determine whether this thing is woken up or is aware is that they're doing, they're viewing it from the, that's what we talked about earlier, the Newtonian scientific materialists, one taking the thing away from the inner dependency that we all have and waiting for it to manifest traits or qualities that are more like byproducts or something of consciousness. But what you, if we are in a non localized field of

consciousness, then that would imply that we're dealing everything as its own kind of animistic sentience. It might never be able to express it, but it's still like vibrating with whatever that fundamental love force thing is. So what are your thoughts about this chat GPT and all the various versions of it that are currently appearing and how, how would you, how do you analyze this thing based on your background and your experience?

Well, first of all, I want to point out that Alan Turing back in the 1940s came up with a Turing test, which was, you know, basically, if you're on a keyboard and you're communicating with a computer and you're wondering is the entity on the other end a live human being or an intelligent system, you know, an expert system. And Turing just, you know, pointed out that if you can't tell the difference and if it looks to be human, then you pass the Turing test that has nothing to

do with consciousness at all. Right. An expert system is just something that can can use the speed and the memory of computer systems to kind of outpace you like, you know, right playing a chess game by where billion moves into the future and it can tell which way to go. But it's not through self awareness. It's not through consciousness. And in fact, there's zero from my perspective, zero way you will ever have a digital computer that will be self aware conscious. It might

mimic that emulate that, but it's not going to be that. And there's a giant difference between appearing to be self aware and being self aware. Okay, but if we're all in this field of consciousness, I'm sorry to interrupt. If we're all in this field of consciousness. In other words, if it is non localized, if we're all just various like perceptual mechanisms floating in this oceanic God mind, then just the fact that you're here in

whatever form, whether it's a butterfly, a frog, me or a harmonized neural network, isn't there consciousness there no matter what? Well, I think the way to look at it, what you're you're dancing around an interesting philosophical question, where the the two main answers I would say are panpsychism and panentheism. And this is where it's important to kind of draw the distinction panpsychism is a basically a pseudo materialist

position that tries to attach elements of proto consciousness to subatomic particles, for example. Okay, and so that's me put the subatomic particles. Okay, and panpsychism is not the correct answer. Okay, there are some philosophers who push panpsychism because they realize there's much more to mind than just brain. And so this is their form of dualism saying okay, well, mine cannot be fully explained by brain, but let's put them in parallel by, you know, this panpsychism

wrong. Panentheism is a better way of looking at it. And that's more kind of the not only mind over matter, but spirit over matter. It looks at the connectedness of mind as being that God force. And this is a way of seeing the universe exists within that mind. This is the important distinction. So it's not as if we look out in the world and you see rocks and trees and you see a asphalt road, you say all these things are conscious, because the actual consciousness is that they

exist within that mind. And that's a very different that allows for top down causality. That allows for a tremendous amount of organization and understanding within the universe to realize that this is all within consciousness. And there's an excellent essay I can send people to it's by Bernardo Castro. It's in the Journal of consciousness studies in 2018. And I think it's called the universe in consciousness. And it's an excellent scientific article that really kind of

puts it in perspective helps you understand why panpsychism is wrong. But this view of panentheism makes a tremendous amount more sense. Wonderful. Thank you for the correction there. I mean, I can't even argue with you because I'm not smart enough. And I haven't researched either either of these philosophical viewpoints enough to like even understand it fully. But that's that sounds good. That sounds good to me. So okay, so there

we go from your perspective. We're still just dealing with a machine. Sorry, folks. Not the answer I expected but as you were asking about chat GPT what I can tell you is you better go back to the drawing board people because that's the most in those software modes are the most embarrassing if you're trying to pretend that that is self awareness. That's pathetic. Give it up. I'm glad they're putting a six month hiatus.

Are they? I really just want to. Yeah, must and Bill Gates and others have just gone public in the last day or so saying we need to put a six month hiatus on this insane focus on AI because it can be dangerous. And I would say inept incompetent, useless AI can absolutely be dangerous because people start thinking, oh, it knows more than I do. And they start, you know, looking to AI to guide the way into the future. Well, no way. Forget

that. I think until they can really up their game tremendously beyond this embarrassing kind of rollout we've seen in the last few months of AI technologies like chat GPT. Just just quit people. Give it. Why is it embarrassing? What do you think? What's embarrassing about it? Why is it? Why do you think it's embarrassing? It's embarrassing. Well, for example, look at what happened to Google stock when they when their little system AI system was asked about the James Webb

telescope and it's put out this big article that said, well, James Webb telescope is the first one to discover exoplanets wrong right out of the gate. It was completely embarrassingly stupidly wrong. And for that to pretend to be a system of intelligence. Yeah, it's artificial. All right. It doesn't even exist as an intelligent. Okay, so I'll tell you go back to the square wall. I think you have to the problem. Here's the problem with I think your your point of

view there is that you know, look at agrarian revolution to industrial revolution, industrial revolution, technological revolution, all the amount of time we had to sort of get used to every like in between moment in each of those revolutions, you're this thing is not been around that long. And I agree with you, my God, one of the funniest moment I have synthesizers many of them I don't understand. I asked chat GPT out of like dialing a patch for like a

mystical flute. This thing with the confidence of the person who made the synth was like, do this, then do that, then do this, then I'm like, what? This is amazing. Everything it said was wrong. It was just emulating confidence. Well, then I fed it the PDF of how to run the synth. It read it extrapolated that information and then correctly told me how to do the thing. Now, the newest iteration of the thing, it will give you I don't know how to code, but it gave me the code

to make a video game that I thought of, and showed me the steps to take. And that's been around for about 10 days. So I think that our judgment of the thing is is based on a very early phase version of it. It's only going to get more confident. Duncan, I would also point out that computer code is very different from, you know, the way we use language and telling stories and in trying to make scientific statements and all

that. Computer code is very literal. And so in that setting, a system like chat GPT, if you put, you know, no more garbage in garbage out, if you put in good data, you might get some very reasonable and useful results. I'm just saying the way these systems are being used currently, they're not not very good, and especially for kind of general information, but computer code is a very different category. I would consider that as realm, especially when you're putting in good

code, where this kind of an intelligent system could give you some very good output. So don't get me wrong on that one. You're just saying it's that if you if you are, you know, it's like bringing a blow up doll to the bar or something. It's like, come on, that is not your girl. That's a raft. That's a raft that you've been making love to stop. I see your critique. Dr. Alexander, thank you so much for this time. And as soon as we hang up, I'm having I'll reach out so that

we could schedule the next one. Will you tell everybody where they can find you and where the best place for them to order your newest book? All right, well, if you go to ebbenelexander.com, there's information on all the books and of no proof of heaven, we just came out with a 10th anniversary edition that includes 36 new pages to it. So I would highly recommend people who are interested, get that new 10th anniversary edition. Also

sacredacoustics.com. That's an excellent site for learning about minor binaural beat brainwave entrainment, the kind of meditation I've been using daily for more than 10 years now, and it was created by my partner Karen Newell. Also, I would steer people to there's a whole set of interviews that we did with thought leaders around the world on consciousness on spiritual and modern science of consciousness, quantum physics, etc. That set of interviews is available at inner

i n n e r sanctum center dot com. And this is a website that Karen and I put up to host these interviews are all available for free. There's a lot of other information available at inner sanctum center dot com. So I would encourage people to visit that. And of course on my website, Evan Alexander dot com joined the 33 day journey. It's available at that first page you come to 33 day journey into heart of consciousness. It's a 33 day email drip campaign that will give you a major concept

from the book for 33 days in a row. And it's become a kind of a international community because people leave their thoughts comments and their their own experiences on that 33 day journey. So I highly encourage people to do that all free all available through Evan Alexander dot com. Thank you. If you didn't get all those you can also go to dr trustle dot com. All those links will be in the podcast in this podcast. Dr Alexander. Thank you so much for these books for your honesty

your work. We love you. Thanks for being on the show. I hope you have a really great week. Duncan, thanks for having me on. It's great talking with you. Hopefully we'll do this again sometime. A good time starts with a great wardrobe. Next stop J. C. Penny family get togethers to fancy occasions wedding season two. We do it all in style dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne

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patreon dot com four slash DTF H. Thank you all so much for listening. I'll see you next week. A good time starts with a great wardrobe next stop J. C. Penny family get togethers to fancy occasions wedding season two. We do it all in style dresses, suiting and plenty of color to play with get fixed up with brands like Liz Claiborne Worthington Stafford and J for our own and their abouts for kids super cute and extra affordable check out the latest

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