Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 626: Alex Rubens

Episode Date: July 17, 2024

Alex Rubens, showrunner of Krapopolis and writer (Key & Peele, Rick and Morty), joins the DTFH! You can learn more about Alex on his website, OKRubens.com, where you can see all of his works (heads up, it's impressive as hell). Original music by Aaron Michael Goldberg and Duncan Trussell. This episode is brought to you by: Reunion - Use code DUNCAN during registration and get $250 off your first retreat!

Now that I have a studio with a wall of thick black brick The old way that I did things doesn't do the trick For a new way to appear, the old ways, they must die And so we pray for that beautiful day when God reverses time Oh Lord, my sweet Lord, I feel you in the earth The candles, they are glowing in the old forbidden church And the rough ones pray every day, they call you from your tomb And when at last you're born born forgive me for recording this on zoom

oh praise the name unspeakable oh praise the tentacle god let your blood and life see flow into the sun mash your teeth and stamp your feet let your pain open the wound But above all things, if you love the king, don't record a podcast on Zoom Throw yourself into the black abyss, find a ghost button, give it a kiss Make love to a bride in front of the groom, but never, don't you ever Record a heckin podcast on zoom check one two check one two god i wish i could sing

if i could sing i don't know what my life would have been like i don't know if i would have ended up a comedian if i had a deep flowing powerful beautiful voice i would probably learn to play the lute. I'd probably hang out in forests, sit by trees and streams and just play the lute. Birds would land on my shoulder, lonely, beautiful hikers would come by and hear

my song. They'd be drawn to me, for sure. Maybe a little confused at first, nervous, but not scared. Nervous because they never felt anything like that before. And they'd say, hey, you mind if I sit with you for a little bit? I don't mind at all. And they would sit and then they would filet me. I think I have to say filate because this is the very beginning of the podcast and because it's going on video on YouTube, I don't think you're allowed to say the other words for filate, which is really great that we have fancy words for blowjob. I think I did the right amount of time where I could say blowjob and maybe because I'm doing an analysis of the term blowjob, it's okay. But filate, that's like the fancy way of saying it.

If you say blowjob, you're kind of like from the gutter. Like people like us, we say blowjob, but the 1%, the global elite, they filate each other. They do not blow each other. They filate. The point is, I would be a forest bard, an erotic forest bard. Unfortunately, I don't have a deep, resonant, beautiful voice. I would do Broadway. That must be fucking great. That must be fucking great. Broadway, New York City, some beautiful penthouse and just orgies and Broadway fucking, because they fuck on Broadway. I'm positive. I mean, I don't know. Okay, I'm not positive. But if I had to guess, wouldn't you think that? Like, if you had to roll the dice? I mean, any of you theater nerds out there, which I definitely was, we were humping. I mean, any of you theater nerds out there, which I definitely was, we were humping. That was in high school.

West Henderson High School. I can't even imagine what happens on Broadway. I can't even imagine. But we all end up on the timeline we're supposed to be. I mean, that's the thing I've been thinking about lately. This comes up a lot in a lot of the Buddhist stuff that I study, a lot of bhakti yoga, the basic observation that the majority of people, whatever happens to be going on in their life, they always want something else. I wrote a poem that goes, sweet dreams are made of this,

It goes, sweet dreams are made of this. Who am I to disagree? I traveled the world in the seven seas. Everybody's looking for something. This is exactly what the mystics were saying. Some of them want to abuse you. Some of them want to be abused. The poem goes on for a while. I'm thinking about adding like a really cool synth, synth pop kind of like bass sound to it. Maybe it could be a song, probably not. It's a little too high brow to be a song, but if you look at your life, when I look at my life, no matter what,

there's always something I wish I was doing or wasn't doing. And even when I'm doing all the things that when I'm not doing them I wish I was doing them, there's some other thing that I wish I was doing or I wish I could go back to when I was doing the not doing the things I was doing and doing the thing I was doing that I thought I shouldn't be doing. So there's no way to win. Always you want something more. I mean it would be easy to hear something like that and throw away all of your ambition and turn into some kind of flaccid, shriveled, sad, drooping human, just rationalize your

entropy as some kind of spiritual trait. But I don't think that's what they're talking about. They're not saying turn yourself into the flaccid, dangling, noodly penis of an old sailor who retired a long time ago and went through hell out there in the sea and now it's just gone. It doesn't matter what he does. Even the pump doesn't work. That thing people use, the pump and erection. It just, it's like the air goes into some vortex in there, the vortex of his soul. He goes to the doctor.

The doctor's like, we're going to have to call NASA because this is impossible. Like where's the air going? And then NASA comes to this old fisherman's house and that's the beginning of like ET2. And it's sad because the fisherman has to reveal that he made a deal with the sea witch who put a terrible vortex in his balls that like sucks everything into it, leaving him infinitely mysteriously flaccid. But that's when ET comes back and uses that healing finger to touch his balls. Or maybe ET comes out of the...

Depends on the kind of ET. You know, these days I guess if we're going to do ET2 and you want it to be a success, you're going to want it to be violent as fuck. You want to do ET2 the way the book of Revelations does the return of Jesus, which is violent. Like this is not nice Jesus anymore. This is—I think he rides a lion, but I could be wrong about that. That might be a different myth. But that could be like it.

Like you just, that would be really cool in the trailer, too. I don't know how you would shoot that or how you could show that, but some way of showing ET's hand just bursting out of the man's scrotum during a physical would be awesome. And then maybe ET climbs out of his body and then heals him. Anyway, the point is, if you look at yourself, honestly, you might realize that some part of you is always plagued with the desire to be something else. And you have to ask yourself how useful is that? Sometimes for me it's useful. It's definitely got me to the gym. But now I,

when I'm going to the gym, I'm going there because it feels good. I like to exercise now. I hope that doesn't make you hate me. I just enjoy the way it feels. It's so simple. Because I'm always up in my fucking head, just bench pressing 300, 400 pounds. It brings me back to the moment. 90 pound kettlebell clean presses just, it makes me connect with the earth again Hanging out with my bros in the steam room Telling each other our dreams This is gym life. It's beautiful But I didn't want to do that at first at first. I would drive to the gym

Dreading it and then sometimes I would leave I wouldn't even go into the gym. How insane is that? I'd be listening to an audible or something and then I would just. I wouldn't even go into the gym. How insane is that? I'd be listening to an audible or something and then I would just think, you know, not today. And I'd drive away. But I sort of made a deal with myself because I understand myself, at least to some very small degree, which is if I start getting into a pattern and keep doing it, then I will stay in that pattern for better or for worse. And then sometimes I would go into the gym and just sit down on the comfortable couches and like look at my phone or like try to write a joke or something in my computer, all procrastination. And then very slowly, very, very, very slowly. I started exercising. Started off just with like a simple 200 pound squat,

then 20 miles in the treadmill. And then the third time, I guess I was doing like, I don't know, glute, like hardcore glute squeezes with ad manium clamps, and that new electroshock thing that they put on your nipples which does work. I don't want to get in another internet controversy. I already got in trouble with the adults who go to Disney. I don't want to get in trouble with the nipple clamp people who don't believe it.

Say it's placebo effect which is totally fucking bullshit. If you have never had clamps put on your nipples and massive amounts of electricity run directly into your nipples while you are doing pull-ups, then you can't judge. Because I can do a hundred pull-ups with the nipple clamp electricity stem, but I can do two regularly. So, I mean, this is as scientific as you can get. It's dangerous and it's disgusting when you get a popper. That's what they call them, a popper. Which is when... Because the thing is, you have to tone your nipples like that is for sure a lot of people say don't worry about that that's all people just trying to sell shit. The toning lotion for people who want to like do a lot of

pull-ups. I use Hank's toner which is the other stuff it like with a menthol cream in it it burns my nips but Hank's toner is great but yes some kid when it came in there you know trying to show off he said he had really strong nips because he ran marathons and they didn't bleed he said that when he runs marathons he looks around and it's like a Niagara of blood flowing out of the nipples of his associates. Those were his exact words. And so he believed that he had some kind of genetic trait that gave him really tough nipples. Said his grandfather had super tough nipples. His grandfather used to do that dangling thing with the hooks and over their dinner table and they'd

feed him. But yeah, he got the clamps on. My friend Jerry said, dude, I'm telling you bro, this is not gonna be great. Like if your nipples aren't ready for this, you can pop, they'll pop. Didn't listen, signed the waivers, and boom, it's the craziest thing to see it happen too. It's crazy.

It sounds like a very small balloon mixed with a firecracker. Like it's just this sharp high-pitched popping sound and you hear it throughout the gym and it just gets quiet, like mournful, a mournful silence because you can't reattach what's not there anymore. It just leaves these brutal holes. And the scream of a man who just got his nipples vaulted so much that it exploded them is unlike anything I've ever heard. It is the wail of just hell. I think that's what hell sounds like probably. My point is, now when I go to the gym, I'm not going there because I want to be something else. I'm going there because it's

hedonism. It feels good. Anything that I'm sort of not wanting to do when I get into the pattern of it, I do it because it's fun, not because I hate myself. And so that thing that creeps in to a person's life, that dismal sense of you could be doing better than this, which was probably injected into us via some propaganda, some evolution of propaganda, because they want us to work harder. They want the economy to boom and for that to happen they think the easiest way to get people off their ass is to make them hate themselves. Who are they? I don't know. Do they even exist? Maybe not in this region of time space. Maybe it's just some shared subconscious shadowy fucking thing where we all look at our temporary transient lives. We see our bodies. We see what our friends have, what we don't have.

We see all the things we haven't gotten done that we wish we had and we just think, oh, the answer is obviously to despise myself because that's going to lead to something better. How could that even be possible? We're not talking about like some smallpox vaccine for self-hate. Smallpox vaccine is interesting. You take the little bits of the smallpox and rub it in, I guess. I don't know. I saw it on a show about, I think, Alexander Hamilton. It's pretty disgusting. I don't know. I saw it on a show about I think Alexander Hamilton. It's pretty disgusting. I really fucking hope this coffee isn't from yesterday. I follow this like really interesting guru on Instagram and right now I can't remember his name. He's into bhakti yoga but I really like some of the things he says. I know that makes me sound like a complete idiot.

But every once in a while, you know, most of the time you go through your reels. I know that's an old man thing. I don't like TikTok. I don't like it. It's too much. And it feels very sensitive. Like TikTok is sensitive, whereas Reels, it's got more of a nihilistic streak in it, which I enjoy.

I sound like such a dumbass. But this guy, what he's saying is really interesting. You know, Bhakti Yoga, the yoga of like loving God and God, the definition of God and Bhakti Yoga might be a little different from what you think the definition of God is. It's very comprehensive, everything essentially, everything. A sink is sink a beta top, a simultaneous oneness and difference. That's you. You're part of God, experiencing God. And it gets even, it gets infinitely more detailed than that. But the point is, the thing is such an incredible circumstance to find yourself in, being able

to experience eternity that has structured itself as a universe around you that has a direct interest in you. It's too much. Are you fucking kidding me? It's like looking into the Ark of the Covenant and Raiders of the Lost Ark. It makes you feel like your face is melting off. So to cure that, people resist aspects of the creation. So some, this is his words, well not his exact words, but it doesn't matter because I didn't say his name, I can't remember it. I'm going to try to get him on the podcast though.

But he was making the comparison to a rainbow, except in this case the rainbow is everything. And all of the different colors of the rainbow represent all the aspects of human experience. And because we are being bathed in this divine light, and it's too fucking much, we decide this color and that color are bad, but the other colors are good. But because it's light, and this is how it shows up on the visible spectrum, you can't get those colors out of a fucking rainbow. You can't scrub them out, man. You can't do that or they would have done it by now, guaranteed. Samba asshole would have found a way to remove purple. Is purple in the rainbow?

Green. Some color would be gone. If there was a way to like put graffiti on rainbows, there would be graffiti on rainbows. The point is, the thing you think of as hating yourself is really your attempts at turning away from the potency of the outflow of God's mind. I think like in the movie with the fisherman it would be cooler I think it would be cooler if like in his balls it was a portal to where whatever planet ET came from and it was only big enough for ET to like get his healing finger through it. But every time he did that he had to sort of break the skin and this every time it sort of yeah that's the doctor's visit is the doctor tells him look it's

incredible this healing finger could save the world but you're an old man and if this thing keeps poking through your balls you will die like maybe it could happen like three more times so he heals three more times and he's like I can't do it anymore and then like some fisherman that he used to be enemies with like he meets him again at a bar and the fisherman is like, I'm dying. And he uses that last heel from ET's finger to heal someone who was his enemy. Like they sit together in his house, really like, I don't know, sea shanties are playing. And he pulls his pants down and he's like, just trust me Jim, this is the only way. And they're both weeping and ET's finger just pops right out of that taint or balls.

Probably the taint would be better. And then heals his friend and they embrace as he dies. That is ET2. Hollywood, if you are listening, get in touch. Let's make this hit sequel, the sequel that E.T. deserves. Speaking of Hollywood, I don't know how many of you know that I do voice acting on a show called Crappopolis, which is on Fox. Super funny show. I'm really lucky that I get to be in it at all. Hannah Waddingham's in it, so many great actors, and then all these celebrities do voice acting on it. And

I just, I got super lucky and I got to play this incredible fish creature called Hippocampus. Anyway, it's one of my favorite jobs in the world and part of the reason that it's one of my favorite jobs is I get to work with today's guest, Alex Rubens. Alex Rubens is the showrunner of Crappopolis and I just don't like what's cool about people like Alex Rubens is even though he has been behind some of the funniest shit out there, Rick and Morty, for example, you might not be instantaneously familiar with him. If you're a writer, you probably know who he is, but people like him, it's interesting, like they're happy to sort of not be

in the limelight and just to make really cool stuff. And Alex and I have had like lots of great conversations during the production of Crappopolis and somewhere along the line I realized, God, this guy is brilliant. He would be a perfect podcast guest and he was kind enough to say yes. So today's guest is writer, showrunner, and all around brilliant human, also a dad, Alex Rubens. Can I just start? Like I had a lot of ways of thinking of starting, but I wanna just dive into the deep end with you right away.

And before we do that, thank you for your time. I know how busy you must be. Yeah, I know. I was so psyched for you to ask me on. Thank you for your time. I know how busy you must be. Oh, yeah, I know. I was so psyched for you to ask me on. Thank you, Alex. Thanks for being on the show. Thank you. Here's my question. Is someone who is Emmy nominated, somebody who has written on Rick and Morty crapopolis countless other shows

This is what I'd love to hear your thoughts on Why is it so hard to make ideology funny in a non satirical way Make it funny in a non-satirical way so the the best example I could think of is all the iterations of attempts at religious comedy. Oh yeah. Or political comedy that isn't satirizing politics but rather satirizing like some side of politics. Right. politics, why is it that using the tools that we understand about comedy, the math of comedy, why is it so incredibly hard to make ideological comedy work?

Right. Yeah. I think, well, I already have the answer to that question. Right. Yeah. Um, I think I, well, I, I already have the answer to that question. No, no, I don't know. I think I, I, I do think that, well, you know, it's like, it's all about audiences, right? Like, I mean, you as a standup, like I don't, I'm perpetually amazed and terrified by the concept of standup because I can't

scare people. But the concept of stand up because I can't scare people. Wait, let me stop you there. Weren't you, you were based on my deep research. You were in an improv group at Yale. So you have to perform for audiences. That doesn't count. Cause those aren't really people. I mean,

Cause you're in college. Yeah, yeah. Well, also, I mean, it's not the, yeah. No, no, I know you're, no, you're right. Well, yeah, I've not, I mean, it's not the, yeah. No, no, I know you're right. Well, yeah, I make it sound like I've got like zero audience experience and that's not true. And also I do think, I do, I was just, like, well, I was talking to Mo Welch, do you know her?

I forget if we talked about her. She worked on the last season, the season, if I say the number of the season, it won't mean anything because that's not the season number as it will air of Crappopolis. But she, I said something to her about how I'm like, God, I don't know how you do it because I'm so hypersensitive and so insecure in so many ways.

And so like, neither of those words is exactly right. I'm so like affected by what, like my awareness of like the ecosystem of attention and like what people think of you and what impact you're having. And so I was kind of like, I could never do that. And she said something like, I think you're misunderstanding how standup works.

It's like, that's exactly what I'm like. Like standup comedians do not have thick skin or I don't know. Right. She said something like that. I was like, Oh, right. So I guess it's true that part of my fear of people is it's very connected to my ability to tune into people. I don't know. But anyway, I do think that affecting an audience and it's especially true if you're doing like you've got an audience. But even if you're like writing a novel at home and in theory, one day if it's published, people will read it. Then, then like, you can turn an audience off, right? I mean, you can, you know, it's like, and I feel like the more ideal for your question, like more ideological it is,

or the more people think, as soon as it seems like you're trying to make a point, if it seems like you're really trying to make a point, you're like, by the way, I'm not just kidding here, I need you to be on board with this, then I feel like that's a good way to lose an audience, or at least it's risky because either they agree with you, and they're just like, yeah feel like that's a good way to lose an audience, or at least it's risky, because

either they agree with you, and they're just like, Yeah, yeah. And maybe they like it if you say in a new way that they want they can use or something, but or they don't agree with you. And you're like, Yeah, well, that's wrong, though. Like, right, right. And I mean, I don't know. It's just it's fascinating to me. Like I think about ideological comedy and my own attempts at it, comedy with an agenda. Even though I'm not saying the intent behind ideological comedy is wrong necessarily. Usually it's like a little bit of sugar makes the medicine go down, is what people think when they're doing it. And those are the best cases. The worst case is manipulation. You're trying to fail some propaganda as being comedy,

but people sniff it out right away. And the reason I ask is because one of the things that I absolutely love about Rick and Morty, and actually one of the things I love about Dan Harmon, and forgive me, Dan, I don't know that you're actually a nihilist and I don't mean that in a bad way. Because I would think of myself as an idealist, a kind of a romantic idealist,

a spiritual romantic idealist. But what I love about being friends with Harmon is anytime I do get a chance to chat with him, I feel like I'm just smashing into this wonderful, this wall of rational, humanist logic. And it's thrilling to me. I enjoy it. It hurts a lot of the time. And then I go back and it makes me reconsider a lot of positions that I maybe hadn't considered to be so generally vehemently and oftentimes an idiotic way sort of trying to speak from that perspective. So it's always good for me, but. Wait, I mean, you're frozen right now. Am I frozen for you or is it just on my?

You're not frozen. You're not frozen. Does that for you or you're not frozen you're not frozen Does that fuck us up with recording or if you're getting are you hearing my audio? I hear it fine Yeah, then we're good. Then I think we're good. I don't know what I don't know what I'm not recording But maybe I'll start recording now. Hang on. Let me open up quick time. Did I mention I'm about to go on a vacation with my family. I'm leaving tomorrow on an airplane and if you've never gone on a vacation with a bunch of kids, then you would probably think it's a vacation. That's one of the first mistakes that you make

as a parent is you imagine that when you bring kids on a trip it's a vacation. It's a vacation for them, not for you, not so much. It's fun, it's incredible. I'm really excited about it, but oh my god, the prep work that you have to do for a trip with three kids is insane. It's like going to the moon, basically. Like the stuff you have to remember to pack just for the trip. The accoutrement, not just like diaper stuff but snacks, water bottles, iPads, car seats, so who's gonna pick you up, who's watching the dogs, like on and on and on. It is really intense and this is why there's a kind of bittersweet feeling when okay let me start over that was so fucking long today's episode of the DTFH is brought to you by reunion there's all kinds of

vacations you could take I'm about to take my entire family on a vacation and it's a lot like going to the moon when you're taking kids on a vacation. And honestly, it's going to be fun in a kind of parental way, but it's not a vacation for the parents. I want it to be fun for the kids. It's more of like a service trip with lunatics. It's like taking lunatics to the beach, the lunatics that you're more in love with than anything else on planet Earth. But reunion provides psychedelic retreats for you. Just for you. And you deserve it.

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good. I'm not obviously knocking the shamans out there. Those are a different type of doctor, but like me, you've been through the war on drugs and you have all kinds of propaganda that's been drilled into your brain regarding psychedelics and it just feels good to have a doctor around. Also they have shamans there. They have groups of people who are going to help you experience a psychedelic in a way most of us never get to experience it, which is the classic way. And by classic, I mean the primordial way that people would take these things thousands of years ago. These were initiatory experiences that were generally

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save $250 off your retreat at reunionexperience.org. Again, it's reunionexperience.org as an aging psychonaut who didn't have this option when I was coming up, I really hope you take advantage of it. What an incredible world we live in where you can take a truly psychedelic vacation, where you're getting support not just of your physiological body but of your spirit. Reunion thank you so much for supporting this episode. All right. You know what just don't worry about it. I do an audio podcast is fine. It's too good a conversation. Yeah it's a good it's a good freeze-frame too but yes yes the night that I I think that's one of my favorite

I'm gonna do the position that you're in right now. Oh god Let me let me quickly finish the point so rick and morty There's all this incredible nihilism in it. That is so fucking funny. It's just so funny Absurdism and nihilism smashing together. And yet within Rick and Morty and within Crapopolis, where you also will find some nihilism, somehow within it, like really humanist, sweet messages are articulated that aren't a turnoff, that don't feel preachy. So I'm just fascinated by that. And like, that's why the first question I wanted to ask you

is nihilism or is cynicism the best way to be funny? Well, you know, I think there's a lot, I thought I'd have thought about this a lot because first of all, with Dan, I think just what you're saying, I totally agree. And I think it's a, there's a blend of nihilism and idealism with them because he, it's like the only reason that we, you care about a story

is because you, there are states you care about something. And I think he's really, I'm like unconsciously imitating the position I wasn't even trying to but I'm kind of imitating the picture image it I'm seeing you frozen it. But I I think that he like yeah I mean maybe it's like idealism. Because he because he my the way I've always thought about and this is how I think about his stories is like he does want there to Be a happy ending like it's like so the Seinfeld thing no hugging no lessons it's like he kind of does want huggings and lessons and and wants a happy ending and ultimately like the message of any of his stories is never gonna be like it's stupid to Have feelings or care about anything. I love anyone like that's not like and I don't know if it's because he

truly believes that, you know, I don't know what he truly believes, but he certainly at least believes that in a story, the audience isn't going to want to keep watching another episode if they're being told like, it's stupid to care about any of this. But that's the thing is that like, if you can get to a happy ending via honesty, then that's a really happy ending. That's like a happy ending that actually means something. And a lot of his endings might not even read as happy endings, but like you never just ends with like, oh, when the chips are down, Rick doesn't care about his family. Right.

Like he just doesn't. Like, you might, I mean, they play with it a lot. But part of the reason I think you play with it is because it well, there's the Harmon line from I think he wrote this at least he probably did. I don't know. But in the well, it's written by Dino Stamatopoulos, the the the stop motion Christmas episode from community, which was one of the first things where I was like, Oh my god, this is incredible. There's like this throwaway line, not throwaway line, but it's just like Dan Dan shit stuff like this out, where it's like it's like a Christmas but you know this episode? No. my camera and you being frozen I'm like getting like I'm like you know what we could do here's what we could do pause I will log out and log back in and I bet my video will work let's try it okay one second all right and you'll okay great you're back you're back okay continue yeah so in

that in that Christmas episode which like is both a commentary on Christmas episodes and it's also kind of like community doing a Christmas episode but it also like really is a Christmas episode. You know, it's like all of those things. It's about being crazy, like literally having like a psychotic break is suggested anyway. And, but also it is a Christmas episode. You are watching Community in Stop Motion,

and you're ultimately, you end up siding with like the spirit of like, it's a journey that they go through to arrive at this Christmas message. And it's like, how can this nihilistic cynical show land on a Christmas message that does feel like a Christmas message? And again, I'm not sure that Dan wrote this

and apologies to whoever did if not, but I assume it seems like something that you would come up with either with great thought or just have it fly out of them. But Jeff Winger says something like Christmas, it's the it's the feeling it's the the the impossible belief or something like that, that the the darkest coldest night couldn't be the warmest or something. Yeah, and brightest

you're like, ah, you know, and I think that's part of it, right? It's like it's like if you can find light and darkness like that's the real shit, right? Yeah, I Don't know. It's like because because if somebody just comes up to you and it's like everything's okay You're like, no, it's not okay. Like, you know, you didn't know what happened to me today. Like I witnessed a murder But I mean like whatever it is like I mean Whatever's good. We all have shit going on in our lives. And it's like if somebody is just like, everything's fine, that hits less hard than like.

Well, there was actually a line in the most recent Acolyte, The Acolyte, which is a show that people don't like. And the last couple of episodes, I thought were pretty cool, actually. What is it? This one. It's a Star Wars show. I'm obsessed with Star Wars. But there's this line where this character says, when you've lost everything,

or something like the thing about losing everything is that that's when you're truly free or something. But you know what I mean? It's like, that's when you realize that you're free. And it's a bad guy saying it, so you can take it with the brain or something. But that's the thing too, is that if you're, so this is my thought about the comedy thing and Dan does this. This is why I've always been so attracted to Dan's

writing. It's that he's like... And a lot of great writers, I mean, well, no, a lot of my favorite writers have done this, like novelists and stuff. But it's like, if you can... You know, Flannery O'Connor? Sure, my God, I love it. There was like a criticism of her where some, where they were like, she's super Catholic and this certainly right out of the gate sounds just like biased and bigoted or whatever. But the, but, but the,

a complaint about her was that her books were, her stories were like pretty Catholic. Like there were people, like when you'd hear her descriptions of her own work, I think she'd be like, well, this character is damned and this character is saved and the mistake this character is making is that they're not actually letting her pray. And you're like, oh, okay. And some people are just like, oh, well, then that makes sense. But then somebody said, oh yeah. And then somebody said, well, their take on it was like, well, she's such a good writer.

It's like, you don't trust the writer, you trust the work. She's such a great writer. She's a better writer than she is a thinker or something, which is like so condescending. But then I think she said, she was like, here's the thing. Like in order to tell a good story, you do need a right theology and a right psychology and an understanding of this and that and the way the world works, whatever. But the place where it becomes art is when you go up to the like cliff beyond anything you know or can know. And that's where it really happens. You know, it's like the unknowns. And that's again with the ideology. Like if you go in being like, I, here's what I know for sure. Everybody needs to stop doing this or everybody needs to act this way toward each other. Then you're going in being like, I got it figured out. And in some ways that's like, that's like salt on a slug

or something. It's like art and comedy as art, but also not as art. It's like, you need a little, you need a little like, like, like open space or something. Like if everything's up against each other and there's no room to like move or think or look around the corner, then maybe the audience is just like, okay, well, yeah, take me by the hand and guide me through, I guess. Tell me what, can you just put it in a letter? Oh my God, no, that's it. That's brilliant. Thank you. That's the answer. That does help me understand it because like in really good

comedy and the comedy you make, there's a sense of the rainbow wheel is spinning. Like we don't know what the output is gonna be. Like it almost is in the process of telling the story. The creators of the story are trying to work out a problem on their own. They didn't start off with like, today I'm gonna give a lesson about selflessness. They started off with like,

what happens if we throw these characters into a situation where they have to share, but they don't wanna, and they don't know how it's gonna, and then the honesty part, that's like, I guess what makes a Flannery O'Connor, a Flannery O'Connor is, instead of breaking the characters by making them do things differently by turning the, you know, if you want to turn into an equation saying two is three and five is six.

You use those numbers, the characters and from that, what is produced is what she's talking about the thing off often live because it is one of the things I loved about like Midnight Gospel. Like there are a lot of things on Midnight Gospel that are amazing. But like right out of the gate, like even before, like even when you start, when you first start watching and you're like, this is crazy and cool and funny and amazing. But like, and you said, and you start to get like a shape to it as you keep watching, you know, like it's one of the things I loved about. Well, that too, just the fact of that alone. Right.

Like there's the conversation, like you're, and this is great about talking to you, like, and your sense of humor and your comedy, but also your thinking, like, you, you aren't like closed minded, you know what I mean? Right. Like, and you, and like Midnight Gospel was like, I mean, explicitly because of the conversations

is like so, just like willing to be like, I don't know, there's nothing, there's, it's like the good ver, I mean, sometimes, sometimes like when people are like, nothing's off limits, it's like an excuse to just like abuse people. And with you, you've got the absolute positive version of it, at least in my experience, which is that you're just like, and I relate to this, and I think Dan is like this too, and I think it's like, if you, like there's no like, like if the top, it's a question where like,

well imagine a world in which blah, blah, blah, like you don't seem particularly prone to be like, oh, well, I don't even want to imagine that. Like a moral objection to a concept that isn't even real. Right. You have to let yourself. If you're really going to utilize this incredible human brain that you have to then try to domesticate it by saying this area and that area is off limits.

How can you understand the world? If you can't really put yourself truly in the psyche of reviled people, serial killers, the worst people ever to really try to understand why would they do that, then I think you're're you're limiting yourself in a terrible way but I think people like us um we well I'm you know like I think this is true like one of my friends is an actor and he got back from a movie that he shot. And I realized all the cliche shit you hear about, like Heath Ledger and like actors getting kind of damaged by the characters that they play, which I always thought was a little bit of horse shit.

I realized, like, oh, my God, it's true. He became a difficult personality in a difficult job for an extended period of time. Yeah. And he couldn't just shake it right away. He did. Yeah. But I saw- Because if you're really doing it, you like are really engaging in the-

Yeah. You're not just like, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so in that mode of thinking, there would be a lot of hubris in imagining that allowing yourself to go here or there, there wasn't some danger. I mean, Martin Barron has this hilarious joke and it's old so I could say it on a podcast. The joke was he's afraid to read Dianetics. I don't even know if it's a standard joke. He's like, I'm afraid to read Dianetics because

I feel like a few pages into the first chapter, I'll start going, this kind of makes sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So like that's the other, within that self permissiveness, there has to be some like willingness to disentangle yourself from whatever you get wrapped up in. If I'm not careful, like a classic example is

I let myself go on very dark conspiracy message boards and I do it because it's fun. I look at it as emerging folk stories. And I think it's interesting in watching the way maybe folk stories originated in this kind of like lack of full information projection of the unknown. It meets and then gets added to by the crowd and then sort of blossoms into something without an author with multiple anonymous authors that might have some truth here or there. But if I'm not careful, if I don't but if I'm not careful, if I'm not careful, then when I see a plane flying over,

I might be like, those are fucking chemtrails. You know? And so I think there must be, within this mode of creation that you're talking about, and you've made me realize that the reason I love you and Harmon and a lot of my friends that I really love, it's because they are like that. Because I, we can explore concepts, ideas without me worrying about being rejected. But don't you think that within that, it's a little bit like you're really going to read the Necronomicon. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. No, I totally relate

I'd scare it's I'm actually kind of like glad to hear you say that because I feel like it's like weakness on my part But I do if I'm being really honest I do sometimes feel like well if I let myself think down this like I police my own thoughts like the thought police are me, you know for myself like I you know, there are thoughts that if I, and the Dianetics thing is perfect, you know, where you're like, well, what if, like, or, you know, not even like ideas or thoughts or ideology,

like sometimes if I'm like, like really, really, like from times when I've been like really high or whatever, and I find myself thinking, if I just like let my mind go in this direction into the fourth dimension, will that be me going crazy? Like, well, does that you cut to me in a padded cell? Or, or is it by dying? You know, I mean, this, this thought where I'm like, well, what if, I'm like, because part of me and it's, and it's indirect response to the part of me that's like, just fucking relax, dude, because I'm often not relaxed. And it's like a metaphor for like letting yourself chill out or what.

Yeah. Like, but, but with, I imagine just like, true, if I just start being like, I'm like, got my eyes closed in the dark and I start seeing patterns or something. And I'm like, let's just lose ourselves in these patterns. Shall we? And part of me is like, what if losing yourself in those patterns really does mean losing yourself? Like what if like, what if what's going on here is that that a normal like defense mechanism has gotten shut down and it's there for a reason. Yeah.

And you're not supposed to go down that rabbit hole because you might not come back. And my I think my honest answer to that is a little bit like, I mean, I, because I was raised to be super, super like moral or moralistic, depending on how you look at it. And I'm always battling with that. And in some ways I'm like a very, very uptight, like, um, scrupulous, like person is very worried about wrong and right. And I don't believe any of it's real. So I don't think I don't personally like I mean the real real but what is real like I think things matter to us and to other people but I don't think the universe cares if we're alive or dead like or or or if it does what does it mean that the universe cares like and also our realities are our reality like you and I see things differently and not to sound like a stone

seventh grader but like I mean mean, literally like we're, we're our sense of reality shaped by so many things that we don't even, we're like running an operating system on our head, right? I was just talking to a guy at a wedding that I met a long time ago who always seemed really like smart and weird and interesting. And then I found out he runs, he works for,

oh, you surely know who this is. Krishna Murthy, is that his name? Oh damn, yeah I mean I know who Krishna Murthy is for sure. He works and he works for his foundation or something. Jesus, but he was talking about and he was like saying this was like you know party, this is your kind of uh wedding conversation, but he was saying you know, you start to realize that like, reality is a game your brain is playing. I'm not again, that's not exactly how I put it. But he's like, he's like, but you're that it's a way of processing things or something that your mind is doing. And then once you

realize that, where does that leave you? And what do you do? And, you know, stuff like that. It's a little bit like the from what was his fucking answer? leave you and what do you do? And you know, stuff like that. It's a little bit like the from what was his fucking answer? I didn't get that. We got damaged. Change the topic. That's what we're trying to figure out

here, man. And why am I being myself with my you know, you know, I actually started I brought it up again later at a at the dinner table and the guy next to him who I later realized is himself like a super like spiritual or like, or at least like very involved,

like he's done some stuff in that world. I don't know exactly, but at first I didn't get that. And it seemed like his response was like, all right, cause I said something like, oh yeah, well Henry was saying that, you know, the self is an illusion. And this guy's like, response was like, all right, because I said something like, oh yeah, well Henry was saying that the self is an illusion. And this guy's like, well, or, and I thought he was like, I thought he was coming in like,

oh, the self is an illusion hippie, all right, relax. But he was coming in, it's like, oh no, he's coming even further from the left. Like his thing was like, yeah, but isn't the illusion, I don't know. But it got nice to hear. But maybe the illusion is real. Now, yeah, so now, yeah, like like, yeah, but isn't the illusion of it? I don't know. But maybe the illusion is real. Now, yeah, so now, yeah, like you, yeah,

and then you get into this, like you're in some terrible pinball machine, just bouncing from- Yeah, I live in the pinball machine, but I think part of the way that I've been a little chiller lately is that I'm like, oh, but who said it's supposed to not be a pinball machine? Like, you know, I mean, like, it says this like binary thinking or like false dichotomies or something. What's the wrong right? I grew up my universe is very like,

here's, here's how I was raised. Here's my moral universe that I still live in. I don't believe it anymore. Like religious people. I know it's not being religious, but I still think God is going to kill them. You know, that, that thing, you know, anybody like that There's like like religious trauma Yeah, yeah But also just like you know, you learn it at such an early age like some of the things like you learn when you're a Little kid like maybe you can never unlearn it. You can just learn it's like adding programming instead of reprogramming What religion were you raised in?

my Sect of Judaism consisting of my dad. OK, that's a very small. Yeah, it's very small. He's a he was a rabbinical school dropout. OK, has very strong feelings. But but basically, I was kind of and I don't even know if this properly. Describes what he thought or was trying to teach. It was just sort

of, but it was the effect at any rate is that there's nothing more important than wrong or right. Like life and death is less important than wrong and right. And truth is more important than anything. And no one can be totally sure that they have access to it because people are very often wrong and nobody's infallible. So you might be totally wrong about what's wrong and right. And it's the most important thing in the world not to be wrong. And you can't know whether you're wrong. But you hold on.

Wait, That's very confusing. Yeah. Well, if you think about this, in a way, though, it's just a description of the world where it's like, no matter, you know, anyone, lots of people, including me and you will make

confident statements about the nature of things and what's true and false or what's wrong and right. But there's always someone else who could be like, what? Stupid? No, that's exactly wrong. So we know that that, and you can always just be like, well, anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Or you could just be like, it's always possible I'm missing, I'm like missing some key. I'm like, well, we know this and we know this

and we know this and we know this. Therefore we know this. Someone else is like, Hey, guess what? Watch this. And I'm like, let's go have a ball and it shoots into the air. And they're like, gravity isn't real. And you're like, what? And then everything. And then you're like, wait, wait, you know, I mean, um, well, I mean, this is like a big, not to say a big problem that I have had in the past. And I think many people have, I don't know if it's a problem is this idea that the consensus is truth. Yeah. Yeah. If enough people agree on a thing, therefore it must be true. It just means that a lot of people agree on it. It doesn't mean it's true. And there's the thing about science. It's the thing about science. It's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science.

And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science.

And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science.

And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. And it's the thing about science. holding medicine back, that was holding culture back, and it wasn't fucking true. And there might have been people in those moments who had an a sense like, I think this is like not just wrong, but the opposite of right. And if they talked about it, they would get arrested or they would get like right in jail or they would more more likely just be sort of like kicked out of whatever the social circles that they were in. I mean, so I think this is like, wait, you're 1978, right? 1978.

Okay. So I think for us, we came up during a time where culturally, really there was a real ethical, moral thing that was kind of informed by the punk rock movement. Right, right. Yeah. And there was an adherence to this kind of truth. And so we all became big fans of the truth. Like you might not fucking like it, dad, but it's the truth, man.

Right. And then we all got older. And so, and then you start realizing like, oh my God, like the idea of what I have is true, used to be an outsider view and thus gave me a kind of outsider And so this is where you realize that whenever you hear that cliche shit about courage and truth, that it's like, hey, oh, so you were really, really, really, really, really, really brave. And so you realize that you're not just a person who's like, oh, I'm a man. I'm a woman. I'm a man. I'm a woman.

I'm a woman. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. I'm a woman. So this is where you realize that whenever you hear the cliche shit about courage and truth that it's like, Hey, oh, so you were really just saying you were into the truth because you wanted people like you. Right, right, right. You're a fucking politician.

You don't give a fuck about the truth. I just recently had a big like breakthrough to use therapy language and it was in therapy. But I know it wasn't in therapy, but I talked about it in therapy, which is that like, I don't know, I often find we got all these things that are tangled up together and like being able to separate them out and at least can sometimes at least make it easier for things are overwhelming. Yeah.

I think that like with wrong and right, which is like tormented me my whole life, I'm like, okay, well, here are at least two things that are not the same thing But are very important to me and that I get I treat as if they're at least tangled up One of them is consensus and and there's no such thing as consensus So it's like watching the stock market or something or like it depends where you are or who you're talking to but it's like What is okay to say? You know what is and that and that cut, you know, cuts, like, well, this is the truth. You might not like it. I mean, that's something that the right and the left can relate to. It's like, each

side is saying to the other side, like, hey, guess what? Your whole worldview is fucked and you're stupid. It's like both. It feels good to be the one who sees the truth. But the consensus question, which you could also say is just like the interacting with public opinion and what do people think and who thinks what and what combination, how does it change and can you influence it at all or can't you and do you need to be afraid of it? And like, what can you say versus what if you say it, you like literally might get killed. Like there's all that. And then there's the like, what do I value? Like what is important to me? And those things can like super intersect. I mean, maybe they're even one in the same,

depending on who you are or what you value. But like, I was trying to get to the bottom of what my wrong and right is. And it really kind of came down to and and comes down to, kind of like how much harm are you, it's sort of like leave your campsite better than you found it, like, am I like, am I fucking shit up around me or not? I'd rather not, that's kind of my ethics. But for a while there I was like, and that is the core thing that if you don't agree with it, you're obviously wrong, and then it can always,

it's like with infinity you can always add plus one. It's like you can always say says who to anything. Yeah. And if you're like the only thing that matters is non cruelty. And someone's like, what if I like cruelty? And I'm like, then you're bad. Like, well, I say you're bad. You're like, no, no, because we like there's there doesn't exist a moral value that someone couldn't say says who to. Right. And you can say, no, but you're wrong. But then you're back where you started if you're really trying to get to the bottom of it. So more and more

I'm like, there's what I value and is so important to me that it might as well be a law of the universe because I'm an animal and I would rather like with my daughter I'd rather die than see her harmed. Right. But I don't think God agrees. I don't think God has any stake in that fight. Like, who's to say God isn't siding with the bacteria that kill us all like I mean, listen, if your daughter's mortal, if your daughter's mortal, I'm gonna say God disagrees. He disagrees with me. Yeah.

Okay. Yeah, there you go. So then I'm like, and then I'm like, well, and by the way, another not for me or for most of the people I talked to, but for some people, the answer of wrong and right is God. And I could say to them, but how do you know what God says? And they could very justly be like, fuck you. That could be the answer. Like, fuck you. That could be the answer. Like, shut up.

Shut up, you atheist. I mean, I can be the response to that. And I'm like, well, maybe you're right, by the way. I don't know. But my point is just that like, sorry for saying fuck. I love it. No, this is- And saying the word Jew.

I love what you're saying, but those are two words we can't say on my podcast. Yeah, sorry, I'm so sorry. Yeah. It's okay. But yeah, anyway, I mean, so my what I've come down to is I'm like, so if you're thinking about getting lost in a dangerous rabbit hole or like you're reading conspiracy theory, if I'm like, if I started reading Mein Kampf,

would I turn into a Nazi? Or like, if I listen to Charles Manson's music without having my defenses up, am I going to start murdering someone? Short answer, no. But like slightly longer answer is that I'm like, well, let's say it did make me question some things. As long as I am who and what I am. And and that's not dependent on being wrong or right right then like can you guarantee that nothing's believe in God now, whatever that thing is, that definition changes all the time. And speaking of allowing myself to go certain places, I certainly allow myself to go into atheist land whenever I feel like it. Sure. Yeah. And it is as a practice, you know, it's just fun.

You have to let yourself do the whole thing. Yeah. And I do it in the other direction for me, too. I mean, I I would for the short answer is I don't believe in God. But if I the longer answer is, I don't know, I guess it sort of depends what you mean or, you know, or or. Well, I mean, that's a problem. It's like love. God and love. Yeah. Yeah. What's the fucking definition of love?

What's the definition of God like I'm certain that for some people's definition of God? I'm a fucking atheist like if you're for example, if you're gonna tell me God doesn't change Well, oh then wait, so you want me to worship Han fucking solo Frozen in carbonite earlier and then I was like, that's too dry. I'm like, I've got lightsabers behind me on her. I'm not worshiping Han, a frozen in carbonite progenitive creator god

that will never wake up with like, oh shit, I fucked up with giraffes. Should have made their necks longer or whatever. Do something all day long for infinity is like, I was right. That's not what I think I've got. It's not that. But you know, if like when you get into sort of God is love, which if we establish these two things are very difficult to define. But if we are, if you're a parent, you know, it's not that difficult to define. Then from that perspective, if I am looking for some kind of transcendent reality that seems to be

bigger than me, then for sure, it's the love that I feel for my kids. Yeah. And, and, and, and, and also I would say that that is not just an experience, but that anytime I'm fully surrendered to that state yeah it's real I mean that's it's real yeah yeah so from that perspective I'm a theist but you know so it's a it's a pro I think a lot of times when it comes to atheism it's like kind of like saying like I don't believe in a certain definition. Yes. Yeah. Of, of, of the thing versus like most atheists, like like like non-activist, like edge Lordy atheists are generally like

very open minded and, and, and rational. And, and usually what's happened is they've, they've encountered some definition of God that is looney tunes, you know, that's just silly. Yeah, and talking to you, I'm realizing kind of like there are lots of ways, I'm not even sure if I don't believe in God because first of all, everything you're saying, I totally agree and relate. But also like the main way in which I don't believe in God is like very caught in the

kind of thinking that I think I kind of moved past. You know, it's that binary like wrong or right truth. Like it's, you know, it's a very, like, you know, at one point I found myself thinking like the problem with the concept of truth is that almost by definition there can only be one of it. Or, I mean, there can be more than one truth but then are you talking about truth anymore? You know, and like, yeah, I think that's just it. Is that like, if God,

like you said, is just like a single thing, then it's like, okay, that doesn't sound right. But then also, like, would that be what you'd call God? Really? And I forget if I told you this, but I read this years ago, and it made a big impression on me, helped me become I used to be much more militantly certain of myself, atheist, and now I'm really not, enough so that I just told you I don't know whether I believe in God. And one of the turning points was when I read this quote from this turn of the last century, rabbi named Kuk, I think. The more I think about it, the more I'm like, did I make that up? But I don't think so. Rabbi Kuk? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he said, Rabbi Kuk said that atheists

serve God because they are tearing down false idols. Because any concept of God is an idol. It's an image of God. That's beautiful. And any, like, like, atheists are like a, like a, like, like a, like an acid bath or something, like cleaning off the garbage. And that it's like, because any picture you have of God in your head is a false idol. I was like, that's a cool idea. This is in the Bhagavad Gita.

One of the verses is so wonderful. God is saying, basically the idea is like, I'll take any form you want. Like if any form you want, like you don't have to worship me as this or that. And so I think the, I think the verse goes to the atheist, I am death. So it's like.

I mean. That's great. That's great. to the atheist I am death. So it's like... That's great. That's great. In that particular form of mysticism and bhakti yoga, the sort of definition of the thing is secondary to the passion within which one connects to it and that the love that one has and especially if the connection to it is The pursuit of truth because the pursuit of truth if there is a God Must also be the pursuit of God. And so in the pursuit of truth There is no difference in the passionate pursuit of truth In it from a scientific perspective,

a purely secularist perspective. I mean, purely like, you know, when you run into like, the real scientists who are like, we're just trying to make things better and find out how shit works. And they're obsessed and in love with it. This is bhakti yoga. Their version of God is the and their rituals are right. Method peer review, all of these things. But and and so the quality of it, the what's filling in the ice cube tray is very different from someone burning incense in front

of a Ganesh deity. Within these two communities, what you have in common is the encouragement of dialogue regarding the subject matter, the sharing of information and stories, and a general passion in the pursuit of what each considers to be the truth. Now, yeah, revelation. So I guess structurally, structurally in some way you could find a lot of weird similarities there. But then you could also say, all right, so I love shooting heroin. Am I worse? Is that my ritual? Is that my God? Yeah, why not?

You know? See, that's where you become someone I love because that's an off limits thing to say. You're not allowed to say that. Well, you know Kurt Brown all right? He had a funny joke that I really liked where he was saying like, I worked with him on a movie and he was saying,

in a stand up, he said something about how like, he's like, he's like making fun of people who climb Mount Everest or something. And he was like, when people die climbing Everest, you're like, they're like, well, people, that's because it's what he loved. Like it was more important. And he's like, okay, you can call that person a hero. If you can also call people who die of heroin overdoses heroes, because it's the same. He's like, he just loved it so much.

It was like, it was his, you know, it just loved it so much it was like it was his you know it's it it it it was worth it like it was worth the risk he he pursued the thing yeah you know and by the way and i don't i mean i don't know maybe kurt's point i don't think so but i think maybe kurt's point was like see they both are stupid but part of me is kind of like i don't know they're as valid as well i mean yeah it's like. So it's it's it's sort of like a question of like, why are we here, which is a dumb question. And any answer to that is probably dumb, too. But if you, especially if the why we are no answers to it are dumb. I mean, well, if you apply the why we are here to anyone other than you, probably it's a dumb answer because you can't really speak

for the rest of us. Like you might be here to live as long as you can and do the standard normie shit, but maybe not all of us are like diving into time space for the same reasons and the severe judgment of people in the sport of extending their lifespan and making as much money as they can and not ruining their lives is a real bummer for those out there who are like, I just, I just kind of want to like slowly disintegrate and feel good as much as I can. I wouldn't recommend it. I've tried that. It's like, sadly, the real disintegration

eventually becomes very painful is the problem, but the prelude to disintegration is a joy. And what you know. Yeah. Yeah. Now here's, it's sort of in line of what we're talking about. And maybe this is too heavy a question. I don't know, but.

I don't know. I don't have any heaviness boundaries. You know, I was thinking about your job. Number one, how intense it is. Like, and how insane it is that you're able to stay sane. Cause like my just rubbing shoulders with it with the midnight gospel and my encounter with the complexity the number of plates you have to keep spinning the infinite endless pressure of looming deadlines the translation for the network

the ways to handle notes or not to handle notes the art of collaboration and how you can't be a yes person if you want to make something good, but you also can't be a no person if you want people to like want to work with you and respect you. And one of the most jarring elements too that I wasn't expecting and didn't like and it's but it's still educational is the managerial part of it which is like I am like my like it became clear to me really early on that like you know if you're talking about what's real what isn't you could make a decent case for like you know when people are like what's the purpose of life if someone's like well clearly it's reproduction we're around to carry our sexual organs around and fertilize and make more like I wouldn't agree that that's the meaning of life,

but it wouldn't be like a crazy answer. Like, you know, it's the jeans, we're there to carry jeans around. Sort of in the same way, it wouldn't be crazy to say the very realist part of my job is my professional contractual legal obligations to the Fox Corporation. Yeah, that it's like that could get me in some extreme cases that I'm not even sure what they would be, they could probably wind me up in jail.

Like, you know, yeah, whereas not like how good I am as a writer. It's like, I mean, maybe I could piss some people off and they can murder me, I guess. But so the computers, the here's the comparison. Yeah. Or a weird precedent and I was just at the airport and picked up some book by the one of the creators of that show 30 something he wrote this book. Oh yeah. And it was interesting to me because though he is a success he's not and he admits it

in the book he's like a working director who made God Jesus so many fucking things. And I loved it because it's like a very honest story about what that job is like. And he was explaining making a movie. He said a movie and it's the same for TV is a pirate ship and that you're sailing this pirate ship filled with like all of these different pirates, these different insane personalities and there's like environmental forces, like bad winds, no wind, like the unknown,

the map is wrong, all kinds of shit that just comes up out of the blue. And your job is somehow to keep that ship above water and going in some general direction via this ability to differentiate. You can't have the same communication with all the pirates. They all speak different languages They all like have different skill sets. And so so so

You're you're the helm of this insane Ship you like I can remember Mike Mayfield on the Midnight Gospel When I saw the first animatic, I'll never forget this day. I saw it and I think I said something like, well, we're fucked. Like it was horrible. It wasn't a standup. I'm looking at this and I'm like, well, it's not funny.

And I don't even know if it's coherent. And he was so good because he took me aside and he said, Duncan, I just want you to know, people who aren't in the animation space come in to make a show. And when they see the first animatic, that's what they always say. And then he said, you have to trust us.

There's things that will make this funny that you can't see. Facial expressions, movements that will drive home the joke. But in that moment, he's a. He was it was so good what he did, like in and like. It was perfectly message to, you know, one of the creators of the show, didn't know what the fuck he was talking about. Because because in a sweet way, he was he wasn't saying stay in your lane, but in a very sweet way, he was saying that he's like, you don't know this world.

So making intense judgments right now is going to hurt you. And it's going to hurt us. And the way the way you did it completely made me- Yeah, it's a non-judgmental, non-aggressive, hostile, stay in your lane. Like, stay in your lane sounds like- He would never say that. It's a business, but that's not what it is.

It's like the opposite almost. It's because it's empathetic. It's like, if he communicated something to you that he knew he could tell you needed to hear, cause you were in distress among other things. You know, it's just like, it's like somebody's first drug experience or something like, Don't worry. You're, I'm never going to come down. You're going to come down.

By the way, stay in your lane. In the literal use of the word, like that term saves lives. I mean, sometimes you need to stay in your fucking lane. That to be that that lane people are going to drive into your car. It's not a terrible thing to say. But but so all that being said. And I didn't manage to tie it in as much as I wanted to, too. But I think you did a great job of explaining how really good comedy shines a light in the

darkness, but it can't do it in an ideological way. But your access to the human bio via art compared to most people is so much more. And so- You mean just because of like the audience, just like the size of a Fox audience, is that what you mean? Dude, so many people, like to me, when I'm laying in my hotel room,

watching forensic files, I just pleasured myself to some disgusting porn. I'm laying there in bed, just splattered on my stomach. Yeah, watching forensic files. And I just think was if you weren't jerking off to forensic files, though, right? I mean, there's some hot episodes. But the but but I often just think like, or, you know, or then I don't know.

Um, Jimmy Kimmel comes on and I just think of the absurdity of what P what that is in the sense that like their reality is beaming in to so many different reality simultaneously impacting some of them, being ignored by some of them, angering some of them. Do you allow the realization that you have been given access to a kind of inner sanctum of a very walled garden, maybe not so walled off now that we have YouTube and everything, but the budget that any of us

on making podcasts have compared to the budget you have, the access to power, to fame, to actors, artists is obviously exponentially diminished compared to your job. So do you, how much time do you spend thinking about the kind of thumbprint that your work is leaving on the zeitgeist? It was very relevant to the, the ideal ideology question is very relevant because I, well like one thing this might sound like false humility at first or just humility or not. I don't know. But that part of it, I don't feel like I have direct, well, one difference between me and Jimmy Kimmel. Well, one thing, I never dated Sarah Silverman. Didn't he date Sarah Silverman? So that's

one difference. Another difference just off the top of my head, I think is the top two differences, is that he's famous and people know who he is. And I feel, I mean, and I want to look at it, but that's another thing that scares me about seeing a standup, by the way, any standup, even if you're just like new, like, is that I sort of have come to prize my relative anonymity. I mean, I might, within this world, there's some, but so, but there's all like Alex Rubens isn't talking to America, which I'm grateful for actually. But the other thing though is that, yeah, like I do have, as writers go anyway,

I have like, I'm in a position where I have like much more of a platform or an ability to get stuff out there. And I think that I learned a really valuable lesson when I was working on the Twilight Zone, the Jordan Peele, the Twilight Zone, which is one of the things on my resume that I have very mixed feelings about because a lot of it didn't turn out the way I hoped it would, but also there's some good stuff in there that I felt didn't land right. And there's also some stuff that I'm proud of, but then in retrospect, I'm like,

no wonder people didn't like it though, because it's like what I did with the assignment, I think the assignment, I mean, in very, very broad terms, the assignment was impossible. It's like, why remake the Twilight Zone, especially when- It's a hard act to follow. Hard act to follow.

And CBS insisted on it being hour long, which, and I'm like, I feel like that's like taking the far side and turning it into like a four panel comic. It's like, it doesn't, it's not the, it doesn't work that way. And within the assignment, there are a couple of them that I worked on that I felt like,

given the assignment were like a material kind of, but nobody cares about or knows the assignment. So you have to, I think about this when working on Crapopolis, like in post and stuff, I sometimes have to like stop and reset my brain and I'm like, the audience isn't going to be asking what's the funniest answer to this question we're trying to solve. They're just going to be asking what's the funniest answer to this question we're trying to solve. They're just going to be watching and something's going to happen. So sometimes in comedy, like in a writer's room, a mistake you can make is like the thing that makes everybody laugh the hardest sometimes is because it's the context of trying to figure it's like if you're like, what's the funniest thing someone could say right now? And the answer is like grape soda.

And for some reason, because of everything you've been talking about, that's such a random answer. It's like, or it's just wrong or just. Yeah. And you're like, oh, yes. But that's not how the audience is going to be hearing it. I'm an incredible improviser. That's why I do you think I just came up with grape soda like that as an example.

I don't know. You did that. Yeah. What is grape soda? Wait, is there soda that tastes like grapes? I mean, I don't think so. I was just making it up. That's part of what was. I was just like scared. They generate speaking of a Twilight Zone episode that would have been fucked up. Oh, yeah. But so in the Twilight Zone, one of the things we talked about was like, well, okay, so we're like Rod Serling. One of the things that Twilight Zone did was it was like made at social commentary and it like made points and shit. And I was like earnestly trying to, I don't mean, I think one of the things that the show rightly got criticism for was like the way it did or did not successfully do that. But in thinking about it, I thought about it a lot because I was like, oh shit, right. No, that's right. This is responsibility. And before I knew that the show wasn't going to be well received and wasn't going to be like, you know, I'm like, okay, like we're, we're addressing

the world. And then, and my thinking was very much like what you said earlier. It's like, I think that if we come in with a lesson, that's automatic failure. And then I've been kind of where I ended up landing and this is where I am on Crapopolis. Like my shrink would sometimes be like, well, why don't you put that into an episode? And I'm like, I don't, I kind of don't get to just put something into an episode

exactly like various reasons, but also, but even if I could, if I'm like, okay, I want to, I want to teach everyone to be a little less selfish, then like the way you do that isn't by teaching a character in real time to be less selfish or showing someone being selfish and then they realize they're wrong. Like probably like, I mean, I wouldn't be like,

if you gave a super computer, like a super intelligence, like the question, if it's inception is my point. So it's like, if you want someone to be less selfish, maybe you tell them a story that's encouraging selfishness. I mean, that's a bad example. That sounds like I just know for psychology, you're talking about curb your enthusiasm. Right, right, right. I mean, like what, what in any given episode of curb your enthusiasm, what is the message to the world other than the, like here's a person making all the worst mistakes you could make and getting

the justice of the divine handed down to them in this hilarious way. Right. And he, and he, he represents in some ways he represents like morality. He's like the voice of like, well, he's the voice of you might not like this. Like he's like socially unacceptable truths. Right. He's like, yeah, he's like, well, OK, I get that this is not a socially acceptable thing to observe. But for being honest and it's like you asshole. But you have toopolis very specifically, like a character like Hippocampus is like,

it's like what you were saying also about truth and like nihilism and Dan and stuff. It's like, you know, part of what I loved about this show before I started working on it and loved while working on it is that there's this way in which it's that there's like a moral relativism built into it. Like their ethical system is not the same as ours, and there are concepts that to us would be unthinkable.

But you know the part in that the finale, what ended up being the season one finale, but was written as the season two finale, but where when Tyrannus says, so do I have to bring back child labor? And you're, I mean, Hippo's like, yes! You know? Yes! But that's not what I'm talking about like like because it's like right course um right but like it's this thing where like

what you wouldn't want to do is take a character like hippocampus and then just have him be a just like like like break his character and have him believe what everybody else is supposed to believe and think the way he doesn't know the way other characters you know that I've thought about it and I've realized that children are important resource and now I'm going to be a better person awful horrible yeah who does that help and then so there was yeah there are places I'm like, also Slava Zizek said every time I say Slava Zizek said I still can't say his name.

At least you can say his name. I stay with every time. It's like Zizek, Zizek, Slava. I'm sure I'm wrong. But I, but he, he said that like the way you like attack ideology and I could think he grew up in Slovenia was a Soviet. He grew up in the Soviet

Union. I don't know. But I think he's at least he but he said something about like if you want to attack the Soviet like ideology, he's like attack the image of the noble peasant, like have the peasants be like bumbling, like selfish idiots. And he's like, and he's like, and that's, you know, that's how you get Stalin. And it's because it's like inception II, it's like, it's like, well, like the fantasy of this idealized thing, which has nothing to do with where the real power lies, like attack that and then counterintuitive, because he talks a lot about how like cynicism can help ideology Like to be able to be like I see right through all that shit and I know it's bullshit and I know he's like that doesn't

hurt it at all It makes it more powerful it can be a relies on it This is the like, you know, I remember reading this for the first time and being completely annoyed by it and very confused by it. It's not GZhek, but it was like some Buddhist text was saying bliss is suffering. It actually happiness is just another form of suffering. It's another name for suffering, but it's still suffering. And I, I, I, I, when I read that, I'm like, shut the fuck up. Like, like, like, give me, give me all this suffering. But another version of this is confusion is a condition of enlightenment. In other words without confusion

you can't have enlightenment or the sort of Core idea is samsara suffering confusion delusion and Nirvana are intertwined meaning you can't have one without the other. Right, right, right. And so that what inevitably ends up happening is that in the culture, the pursuit for an ideal inevitably gives birth to the opposite of the ideal because some resistance. So it's almost like an arm wrestling match. You're almost inviting people to an arm wrestling match.

And then you get this, you get a stupid pendulum effect that the American politics has been experiencing forever, which is like it swings the one side, that side. It tries to drive this fucking antiquated ass old clunker of a fucking slow moving fucked up bus with a great engine in it. That's really mysterious because how the fuck did people build something like that that long ago? But it needs a lot of work. And so here's like a, okay, sorry, sorry. My point is somebody has to drive that motherfucker and somewhere along the ride

people on the bus are like, yeah, you're too old. Yeah, shitty old driver. And then some other dumb fuck gets in the driver's seat and fucking drives the bus. And inevitably, everyone's like, you fucking suck. Yeah. And so but the problem is the choices of the driver seem to get increasingly extreme. Like, you know what I mean? Right. Yep. And so that's the problem with the situation we're in is that the moment you create a restriction, you produce the criminal. The criminal is born from the legislation.

That's the weird math that we're in is where anything you put into the world, it's opposite appears. Yeah. I really think that's true. I think, yeah, I was like, yeah, I mean, I guess it just occurred to me, as you're saying this too, that I never quite thought of it this way. But I think it's like, well, I thought this about social media, but I guess it's sort of true of democracy,

that like one side effect of making everybody think in terms of power, right and wrong, the shared benefit of, shared welfare of, but also the shared power of a country that in some important noble way is based on the will of the people, but also the people are divided. And it probably turns you into a paranoid being that's very worried about trends of opinion And it probably turns you into a paranoid being that's very worried about trends of opinion and what everybody thinks. And we're all, and that's true of social media,

but maybe it's just true of living in a democratic society where we're aware of people outside of our bubbles at all. That we're just sort of like, it's an existential crisis if somebody in Mississippi thinks a thing that I think is abhorrent, you know? And I'm like, I don't know that person, I'm not over there. Right, it's a two party problem.

It's like, how the fuck do we take a massive population of people and smush them into two broad categories? It's like, if we had more parties, fuck man, it would be a real solution. It's like, give me a break. There's so many people with intersecting ideas that have been forced to take one side or the other. And like, yeah, if you wanna make people angry

at each other, pick two like very broad sides that inevitably contain ethical ideas that you are going to disagree with and, and then like force them into those two things and tell them that's normal. It's, yeah, it's like the most common thing. Yeah, there's no way you can't. When that's why that's why I'm grateful that I'm sorry, because people know who you are. But that's why I'm grateful that I'm sorry because people know who you are but that's why I'm grateful that I'm an anonymous because I'm like I'm like it's so scary to me that there's not this conversation that we're having it's surely offensive to people like if they certain people adhere and they'd be offended by all sorts of things about it and even the concept or like the or like who we are and part

of me is just sort of like part of me is like um uh know, again, like I centrally prioritize, like I don't want to do any harm or more harm than I can. A little harm is like, and avoid, you know, like the only context in which I would want to hurt someone is if there's some way in which that clearly does a better positive thing and a large, but then you're all in trouble. And part of me is like, well then maybe the big mistake is, I mean, this doesn't, if I imagine this in the context, we're all having different conversations and we're all playing different games. And it's like, somebody could be playing Super Mario Brothers and be like, you got to jump on that turtle.

And somebody else could be like, you've got to jump on that turtle? And you're like, no, but it's a game. In the context of Super Mario Brothers, yes. And you can be like, well, do you have a right that just because you're in, right? Hold on. We're not, we're not, we're not talking about whether it's a good game or talking about what you do in it. And yeah, well, and it, but, but like, you know, but so somebody listening to us in thinking in terms of politics would be horrified by what I'm about to say and I would be horrified by it if I were in the right mindset as well, which is that I'm like, is it none of our business? I mean, I'm one of eight billion monkey people on a rock in space. in space and like, why do I think that whether this one man in DC or maybe he's on a jet somewhere now going around the world, like the question of whether he should be officially

the candidate and that part of me is like, why is that my business? Or why do I care more about that than I care about politics in Slovenia, or why do I care more about it than politics like 2000 years ago? Like Nabokov said something about like, why am I more upset about something that happens a thousand miles away than I am about something that happened a thousand years ago? You know, it's like, the idea of it is horrifying.

And if you phrase it morally, like, don't you care? Then it's like, of course I do. But also, so that's what I'm saying. This could sound politically, this is an argument for apathy and non-involvement and non-responsibility and easy for me to say my nice living situation. But like philosophically, I'm kind of like, I don't, if I knew I could make a difference,

like if I could go down in a blaze of glory even to save the world, like, yeah, I might do that. But like, I don't, I'm not aware of any such option, like, or even close, like, you know, I think that I referred to something Jack Kornfield said all the time, especially when I have, when I realized I'm being marionetted by the state, which is, if you find yourself by the state, which is if you find yourself infuriated by the machinations of the state, if your emotional wellbeing is being disrupted by something that is very far away from you

and that more than likely you have very little impact in, there's an antidote to that, which isn't apathy necessarily. Number one, recognize this is what I think, you know, I think it's really important. And I don't mean this in some kind of like fence riding way. I mean, from a Buddhist perspective, the thing they always go back to is everybody wants to be happy. Like, if you want to find some commonality among people, let's start there.

People want to be happy and and and so What you will find mixed up no matter what your politics may be mixed up in the Passion of someone who you have severe political disagreements with is a very passionate desire For the world to be a better place, right? So there's a kind of beautiful altruism there that is like some natural spring, a flowing river of purity that's being diverted in the fucking mordor by massively powerful propaganda machines that recognize human compassion, altruism, the desire for the world to be a better

place is a fundamental quality of most human beings. So if we understand that, and then if I can co-opt that, by making you think that I know how to make people happy, and you sure as fuck don't, I can divert your altruism into unnecessary fixation on the state. Cornfields what Chad Cornfield said which I love is tend to the part of the garden you can touch and you know and if you and I think that is a very revolutionary even though it could sound a little like what's the word milk toast it could sound a little like water what's the word milk toast? It could sound a little like watered down. Well, it's actually revolutionary. If we if everyone started doing that, taking that altruistic

desire for the world to be better for the community there and to be better. And just started applying that in the micro, generally just in our family, their friendship groups, their their most the closest community, but everyone was doing that. Then the politics would change. Jung talked about this, how the leader of any country is a reflection of the shadow side of the people. And you could do interesting psychological analysis looking at any country, looking at their leader. And then from that thinking, okay, if that was my shadow, if I was suppressing that, what does that say about me?

Yeah, yeah. Oh, man, I like that. That's the thing that also Zizek was talking about that made a really big impression on me, this idea that well this is really reducing it, but that whatever your boogeyman is, if you name an interesting exercise, think of the very, very worst thing or kind of person or deed or whatever in the whole world, and then just sort of assume that probably the heat of that opinion means just in the same way that we accept this generally as a general rule that what you hate in other people is something you see in yourself. So it's like, just apply that. And you're like, okay, well, if you're... And to be really simplistic about it, you could be like, okay,

well, the concentration camps are one of our big symbols of the heaviest, worst, most evil, most- Yeah. And then this automatically, this guaranteed offensive. But one, as I think Zizek pointed out, the concentration camps were invented by the British in Africa, right? And it's like, and also we put Japanese people in interment camps, but whatever. They're not intermination camps. But now this is the really offensive thing, but if it, but just like value neutral, it's like, we are currently operating like major slaughterhouses that have even meat eaters a little uncomfortable with the way

in which we're tormenting animals. And I'm not, my point isn't even, I'm not even making a vegan point. I'm just saying that like the thing that that if you like take it and it's the most horrible evil nightmarish vision there might be some version of it in our normal shit that we have to be okay with. You know, like just the pure amount of like destruction we're wreaking or um so yeah I mean I think and like you said the the out like the shared I don't know yeah I mean, I think, and like you said, the shared, I don't know, yeah, I mean, I attend your garden, that's the thing is that I'm like, I think I'm at my worst when I'm like,

oh, like I see something wrong, I need to fix it. And then especially if it's not like immediately in my shit, but like, you know, like start arguing with people about how to look at something. And I'm like, does this need this right now? Like, who's benefiting from this? Do I think right? Maybe if it were so clear, if it were so clear to me that if I could get this one joke on Crapopolis, it would make the world a better place. Then maybe I'd like focus on like trying to make sure that I get it on there or something. But I never think that

way. Like I almost think more way. I almost think more, it's like, well, like in every interaction and everything you're doing, that's why I think it's so important to me to be like, well, what do I value? I don't have to be right. I don't have to be like, and I'm sure I'm right. And if anyone's against me, they're evil. But just to be like, if I'm interacting with you, or if I'm interacting with my kid, or if a stranger comes up to me on the street, what I do, or if I were zapped into another dimension and for all I knew, no one on earth would never see me again. And probably I was in the ultimate equivalent of privacy or something. I don't think I'd be like, now I want to hurt

things. Like now I want to cause pain. So therefore, I'm just sort of like, all right, well, but I am comfortable more than some people are with making things, like rocking the boat a little. You know what I mean? Because there are some people, and I can't totally blame them, who are like, just to fucking rock the boat. Can we just fucking chill? And know, like, I don't Yeah. And like, those aren't like idiots or monsters, you know, but they're, they're, they're

prioritizing peace more than I do. And I do prioritize peace, but I don't prioritize it above, like, like, you know, you start getting into shit like justice versus order and stuff like that. But my point is just like, well, then let's apply that to like, the conversation I'm having or the thing I'm doing or where I literally am. Like, dude, instead of like thinking this is why I love process political, um, rivalries, conflagrations in the world are all the thinking of a divine mind as it tries to understand what the truth is. It doesn't know yet. And that within all of the paradoxes

and all of the antithetical things, what you're looking at is an evolving mind that is trying to, and this is not just woo woo, like you can look at natural selection in a simpler way that biologically a kind of thought process is happening regarding. The whole concept of the big bang, isn't it? That like everything is a big explosion kind of like,

it's like the, we're the billowing clouds of like, I'm not, you know, like we're, it's like we are, we're entropy or something like we're. Entropy and harmony. That's what's really crazy. We're the coalescence of entropic particulates that have gained enough coherence to become aware of themselves. This is the giggle from the universe, which is like, figure that out, monkey descendant. Go ahead, figure it out. Wrap your fucking head around that, man. Because I sure as fuck can't.

And like, I don't't I don't know that anyone can so I so this is what this is what I like to think is like to me um well the reason I can't be an atheist is only because I can't tell the future and it's like and you mentioned this before we started recording your friend is saying AI is going to become God. We don't know yet right now. And if we're, you know, to go against what Thomas Merton said, which he would say that people come to me and say, look at the world, how can you say there's a God look at all the horror. And he said, the fact that there's humanities still exists, right, right, right.

With our capacity for destruction and hurting each other, makes me believe that there's a God. But let's throw that out the window and look around at the world. It might be. First of all, if you think you truly fully understand God, I would like to talk to you. But some assumptions regarding God. One, we think God is static. In other words,

God can't blink out of existence. There could be a problem. God might have a problem, like a bad internet connection or in God's... You know what I mean? He might just blink out and blink back in sometimes and doesn't know why yet. So yeah, or maybe there isn't one right now because it hasn't formed yet and we are the formation of divinity. This is Taylor DeChanon talked about this maximum complexity, maximum harmony. This is God, the place of maximum complexity, maximum harmony. And to get to that place, you're going to need a lot of complexity. Yeah. And that's why joy is suffering or is a kind of suffering because you can't get to what we could in shorthand call perfection without like a huge mess of, of imperfection.

like a huge mess of imperfection. That's it. That's it. There's a lot of dead giraffes with short fucking necks. There's a lot of giraffes that had to fucking starve to death to have those long neck giraffes. And the same is true for everything. So it's like wrapped into the beauty of the world is the, um, which, which, you know, is. And maybe that's why I like comedy so great is it's like acknowledging that. And then somehow making that seem okay.

In a way that. Isn't based on bullshit. I don't know. I mean, And then somehow making that seem okay in a way that isn't based on bullshit. I don't know. I mean, listen, I could talk to you forever, but I want to ask you something. Do you notice that I'm sweating right now? No.

Well, I did see that a couple of times you reached up and I think my video quality isn't good enough or something. I can't run the AC. I can't run the AC. I can't run the AC during the time I guess. I'm in Texas. Oh, see, that, should I, is it, yeah, I, that's why I almost, I've got this mic that BentoBox gave me that I do like scratch, record and stuff on,

but I know that if I do it and the air conditioner is on, then it, anyway, are you saying you gotta go? Cause you're dying? I'm telling you that it's like podcasting in a sauna. Like I am like look at my shirt man. It's black. This was a white shirt at the beginning of the and I wasn't and I this is a sappy way to end the show but man I just hope we get to have these keep having these conversations like when everyone talks on about the fun, I do too, man.

And I learned a lot from this conversation today. I really appreciate you answering my, my, um, weird questions because it's something that they were fucking weird. That was, that was Alex Rubin's everybody. Please come see me do stand up. You can find all my dates at dunkitrussle.com, but coming up, I'll be at Comedy On State in Madison, Wisconsin. Do support our sponsors because they support the podcast.

Like and subscribe. I don't even know if that works at all, but every YouTube video I watch, that's what they say. So if you made it to the end of this thing, won't you like and subscribe and thumbs up or the things? Do the things, please. I've got to get the algorithm to love me, man. I still am not even close to Mr. Beast.

Not even close. I expected to have like at least five million subscribers by now. We got to get it moving. I'll see you guys next week. Until then, Hare Krishna.