Duncan Trussell Family Hour - 732: William Leonard Pickard

Episode Date: January 12, 2026

Leonard Pickard, a prolific LSD manufacturer and the "Acid King" of the 90s, joins the DTFH!PSA: Take LSD seriously! It can have benefits, but also a lot of pitfalls. There's a lot of research on its effects, and some people are just genetically predisposed to have a bad time with it. Read up properly before making any decisions for yourself!Wisconsin family! Duncan is coming to Skyline Comedy in Fox Valley, Wisconsin, January 15-17. Click here to get your tickets now.This episode is brought to you by: Check out squarespace.com/DUNCAN for a free trial, and when you’re ready to launch, use OFFER CODE: DUNCAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This episode is brought to you by BetterHelp. Give online therapy a try at betterhelp.com/duncan and get on your way to being your best self.

Greetings, friends. It is me. D. Trucelle, hello. First, before you get going on this incredible episode, I got to plug my shows. I'm going to be in Appleton, Wisconsin at the Skyline Comedy Club, January 15th to the 17th. Won't you come see me? Forgive me if I get a little sentimental about today's guest. Leonard Picard was a prolific LSD manufacturer from the night. In fact, according to the DEA, after his arrest, LSD dropped by 90% in the United States. That's how much LSD this man was making, meaning that if you were taking psychedelics during that time period, you probably took some LSD that he created. Now, the reason I'm going to get sentimental is because when I was in high school, LSD completely changed the trajectory of my life for the better.

I was plunged into this mystical, beautiful universe. And now I understand a lot of reasons that I responded to it were discovering now that LSD and many psychedelics seem to cause neurodialics. genesis. They could be used as a treatment potentially for PTSD, depression. The discoverer of LSD, Albert Hoffman even said that he wished the prohibition hadn't happened because it's smaller doses, potentially LSD could work as something for ADHD, like a psychedelic kind of adderol. Regardless, it was very important to me when I was in high school and after high school. and has been a great friend throughout different periods of my life. And so at some point, quite some time ago, I was on Rogan,

and I think I talked about how insane it is that somebody like William Linnard was serving two life sentences in prison for creating what I would consider to be a medicine, something that really benefited me and compared to a lot of other illicit drugs out there that really didn't seem to be destructive at all. Now, before I go on, let me just say this. Please be careful. For you young youngs out there, do your research. This is one of the most powerful chemicals on the planet. Don't go running to find LSD because my old ass is. yapping about it. Look up brain development. You know, the human brain apparently doesn't stop developing until the mid-20s. And so, you know, if I could go back in time, I think I would

probably wait based on the new research coming out. I just want to say that. I'm not saying everybody should take LSD. It might not be right for you. There's apparently some kind of genetic predisposition some people have it. It could actually be the worst thing that ever happened to you. All I'm saying is I don't want to sound like some kind of idiot LSD advocate. Like I'm ignoring all the potential pitfalls, dangers, all the things. It's take it very seriously. I'm a dad now. I'm sorry. In the old days, I would never say something like that. But I do believe it now. Maybe I'm just preparing for the inevitable conversation I'm going to have to have with my kids about it. Regardless, it always bothered me that LSD had a five-year mandatory minimum prison

sentence attached to it. I couldn't wrap my head around it. The idea that you could go to jail for five years for taking something that seemed to expand consciousness, that seemed to open up the heart, that seemed to connect you to nature, and the next day seemed to actually not have some kind of hangover effect, but improved mood. That improvement would last sometimes for weeks. I just couldn't get it. Like, why don't they want us to take this stuff? It was very confusing to me, and it still is. But the prohibition obviously is still going on. It's still, I don't know, a Schedule 1 drug, something like that. But thanks to changes in the prohibition, people have been doing research on it and other countries,

they're actually, I don't know if they're prescribing it yet, but at one point, many years ago, I actually bought stock in a company that was manufacturing LSD, just as some kind of like ridiculous, silly celebration of the fact that finally are moving past this insane, horrific, stupid, idiot prohibition on psychedelics. And William Linnor Picard, he took one for the team. He was given two consecutive life sentences for manufacturing LSD. Thank God he is now out of prison. And I guess I just was like, you know, talking about how insane it was,

on Rogan that this man was in jail and then after they released him someone reached out and said he wanted to talk to me and we had a phone conversation and almost immediately became friends i realized that i was talking to maybe one of the smartest people i'd ever talked to and that um since then we've had wonderful chats on the phone and finally he agreed to do my podcast i've probably asked him to do at least 10 times. So he's here with us today. And I would love it if you would subscribe to his Patreon. He's got a wonderful podcast called The Last Alchemist on Patreon.

Links will be down below. Now, everybody, welcome to the DTFH, William Leonard Picard. Mr. Picard, I'm calling you Mr. because of my deep respect for you. Welcome to the DTFH. And this is a cheesy way to start a podcast. But from the bottom of my heart, I want to thank you for the work you did for us.

You know, I'm certain that I have taken LSD you manufactured. And for me, LSD was a net positive in my life. and the fact that you were sent to prison for manufacturing something that, you know, when I was in high school, we weren't where we're at today. You're not getting therapy. I didn't know anything about Buddhism or any cosmic anything, and you stumble upon LSD, and suddenly you're getting this download, and you're realizing, you're seeing past the tiny little world that you've been programmed into. And so, and I think I speak for a great many people. Thank you. And I'm so sorry that you got locked up for the incredible work. Well, thank you, Duncan.

Sometimes people say thank you for service, and I feel like I'm in the military, that sort of thing. We basically were. Yes, well, you know, your early experience is explained a lot of who you are today and your flexibility and creativity and general buoyancy. For the audience, Duncan, I've had some extraordinarily lengthy. and exuberant phone call. So he has a very fast to mind. I'll like to know. So thank you, Duncan, for the end.

You got it. And, you know, I think it's important just for those of you out there who might not be aware of who Leonard is. When you were busted, the DA reports that 90% of the LSD, something around 90% of the LSD in the country, disappeared because you were creating that much LSD that you are one of the primary sources of it in the United States for well certainly the government's view of course they tried to make the cases large as possible oh I see oh there's it's hard to

ignore 300 million doses or more going out it probably made quite a world tour of a neurochemical. Oh. In terms of the actual amounts, no one really knows, perhaps one or two people really know the quantities that are larger

than the government's estimate or considerably smaller, but we'll never tell. And you know what? Let's just leave it at that. I love that answer. Yeah. You know,

in thinking about I hate to use this word for it, but just out of laziness, we'll call it the LSD industry, even though it's the opposite of that, if you ask me, versus other like clandestine drugs sold to this day. What I found so curious about it is that, you know, I could remember, you know, looking at a hit of acid in my hand or something and marveling over the mysterious path it had taken to get into my hand. I mean, on top of the fact that this square of paper had transformed me in the most incredible ways,

there was the fact that there was a five-year mandatory minimum prison sentence if I got busted with this tiny little piece of paper that only seemed to connect me with my friends, the universe, that was giving me visions of, you know, a realm that you only read about in books, that you had some intuition that existed, but this was showing you the mystical vision. And from that, you could extrapolate what sort of system we were living under. Why don't they want people to have this tiny bit of paper in their hand? And how in the world could they think you need to go to prison for five years for this?

We could talk about that a little bit. You know, it's not really an industry in the sense of industrial settings or that sort of thing. Underground manufacturer is more of a cottage industry. It's all clandestine, very carefully done, very reverently done preparation, usually in an extremely isolated environment, very, very high security, because one's life is risk every second of every day. The approach is perhaps in a sense more like

been predicting months at monks in the 16th century making wine. Because they thought it would stop war, but done with delicacy, precision, reverence. I'm so happy to hear that. More of an ecclesiastical. activity that's what i suspected and um this is the sort of contrast i want to draw is you know when someone's whipping up some cocaine you know in columbia dumping gasoline and a oil drum or whatever

i don't know how to make cocaine but someone's whipping that stuff up they're not thinking this is going to this this this is like an atomic bomb for consciousness this is going to this is going to move through the zeitgeist and create incredible works of art, incredible epiphanies. No doubt incredible technological innovations will come from people going into this space. They're just thinking, we're going to make a ton of money. And I never got the sense that that was the motive in people like you who were creating the substance. So it's a joy to hear that.

You've got it exactly, in the sense of, say, methamphetamine, or cocaine or a PCP or that sort of thing. It's just a preparation of financially fuel, that sort of thing. But in ritual preparation of what many consider sacrament, an entirely different approach. And it would be criminals that treat it any other way. You know, LSD has an interesting aspect. It's almost mystical in the way,

even though it has to be approach science. scientifically, that means the chemistry has to be rigorous. All the materials are balanced perfectly and weighed, measured, synthesis thoughtfully considered and developed over years, technically accurate. It can fail if the, well, this is a bit risky. It can fail if the heart or the intention of the person at the bench is off center. off-center or not focused entirely upon the hopeful benevolence of the compound as it goes out around the world.

Wow. One must focus entirely upon what one is doing. It's difficult to imagine more than five or ten doses. It's difficult to imagine 100, a thousand. But a million or 10 million or 100 million is can't be comprehended. And so one is releasing to the globe, the most potent neurochemical. In your book, the rose, you describe it as a forge, right? Am I remembering that correctly?

A forge? It's like you're in front of a forge. You're working in front of this mystical fire. I'll describe it as the moment of synthesis is the moment that things become psychoactive. that happens within 30 seconds. Suddenly, suddenly you have tens of minutes of doses being born. What does it feel like?

Often describe that it's like standing at the ark, the covenant. Wow, that's it. It's blinding light, just radiating outward with force, unimaginable force, blasting through every cell in one's body and mind. That sort of thing. It's not, it can't be, can't be comprehended. Of course, in reality, one is just simply standing from a lacroseract or perhaps with a hand on it,

invoking a prayer, that it will act as a healing entity as it goes outward. We can get into this very deeply. I would like to. This episode of the DTFH has been supported by my friends at Squarespace. It's the new year. And that means it's time for you to finally do it. Whatever your business idea is,

I'm telling you, the moment you start putting that into motion, things happen. Synchronicities happen. I might sound like some crazy woo-woo loon who goes down to Costa Rica and slurps back ayahuasca 15 times a year. I've never done ayahuasca, but I do use Squarespace. And you should too. If you're thinking about creating a website, Squarespace is where you should go. It's so easy. I've made websites using Squarespace in less than a couple of hours.

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Don't believe me, go to squarespace.com forward slash Duncan, give it a shot. And when you're ready to launch, use offer code Duncan to get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain. Again, it's squarespace.com forward slash Duncan. offer code Duncan to get 10% off your first order of a website or a domain. Well, in that case, this is a little early in our discussion that goes through deeply into things, but it looks like the moment. Let me describe that for you. So when it's in a clandestine laboratory, an extremely remote environment at our mountaintop,

we're in the far deserts, and it's totally silent outside of just the wind and the mountain. mountains. Under constellations, fires are burning in one of the rooms. There may be votive lit here and there. And since one is dressed in protective gear to prevent over exposures. One can't stand in a room with 100 million doses. You can't even stand there without some effect. Music may be playing a Gurgorian chant or music from the jungle or ceremonial music is playing. The room is bathed in a deep red photographic light. Deep red light, not normal white light. This is to prevent the fragile molecule from being pushed in different directions that are deleterious to it.

So bathed in red light, covered in protective gear, votives burning, fires burning, music playing, Hildegarde von Bingen, for example. And within this wall of elaborate glassware, one is a 22-liter vessel in which reactants are stirring, and they're stirring under argon and inert gas because oxygen tends to damage the molecule as well. And things are stirring away And at this moment It's just a moment that occurs within 30 seconds Which is this entire swirling liquid

Under Argon goes from merely reactants of various chemicals of the elaborate names to the 10 million doses of the most potent neurochemical known That's a very magical transformation

just the subtle way the molecules suddenly aggregate itself is quite a miracle, but they're aggregating into also another miracle, quite a special compound that has affected millions, of course, over many years. And so what does one do at that moment of birth of what may be an entity, a strong entity? What does one do? Does one go have a cigarette? Does there one go watch TV? One, at least the underground chemist that I've known through the years,

there are about five or six people that do this kind of scale, it's a planetary scale, and each in their own tradition, Judeo-Christian, for example. The Judeo-Christian religion, when kneels or stands hand on the reactor, globe to hand on the raptor as this thing is being born. And one invokes or calls out or petitions the universal creator, by whatever name, dear Lord, if you will.

It says a little prayer which goes something like this. May this substance be a benevolent spirit throughout the world. May it do no harm. May it lift the hearts and minds of men and women. May it make us more compassionate, intolerant. May it allow us to see the future to come. May it protect our species. May it somehow end war and hatred.

May we become kinder and more gracious and thankful. May we love the great forest and the oceans. and all sentient beings, may we walk in light and grace as humans upon this beautiful planet. That's the best thing I'm room. And with that, it goes out. That's so great to hear. That's so great to hear. You feel it.

I felt that. You feel it in the, you know, this. substance is so powerful. I mean, I could, I know, I mean, look, I feel like if anyone I could say this too, it's you. I would know I was going to take LSD that day before I had found any LSD. Like, I could feel it like it washed back through time or something. And I would think to myself, oh, you're going to take acid today. And then sure enough, someone would be like, do you want to be like, do you want to?

Do you want some acid? And it's so powerful that if it's so powerful that one experience could theoretically, subjectively ripple backwards through time space, what in the world would that have been like? And it seems like all you could do was pray after encountering something like that. I just can't imagine. Were there any other visions you would have? Surely you must have, that you feel comfortable talking about, that were born out of this womb? Well, that's a very difficult question.

There was an event of a great magnitude in the lab that we might want to discuss a little later in our conversation so we can circle back to that one. It's kind of a fun story. Okay. Well, I mean, you know what? I think of you in Austin as a young man. you know, thinking, gee, if you got the trip today, and suddenly it shows up in your hands, you know. I had the pleasure of being a young hippie in Austin at 21, 22, living near the university. We're all living on mattresses in those days in little houses, a fraternity row, because

the effects in our generation, we were the first to be exposed to these things. and the effects were so profound that we had no one to talk to there are no elders we can only talk to another there were no cell phones or computers so it was all word of mouth somehow we found each other and did you experience this did you experience that and spoke of these transformative and effortable changes that could hardly be captured in language but there we were young and experimental and we cared not for food appears places to sleep appeared. We were onto something bigger

and it obsessed us. We had to talk about these marvelous transformations of consciousness. It was very, very important. So, yes, I danced a lot around Lake Travis and the moonlight. That's so cool. Well, I was actually in Hendersonville, North Carolina. I was not even in a big city like Austin,

so we didn't have anyone to talk to about it. And it was so clandestine then. And because we were going through the war on drugs, there was all these urban myths floating around, you know, take, if you take it more than a couple of times, you go, quote, legally insane. And the, you know, then you would stumble upon Terrence McKinnett. That's as close as you had to an elder,

which these days, you know, his writing is not considered as taboo as it used to be, which is suddenly here's this guy. articulating the psychedelic experience in a positive way. This is good. There was very brave. In my first tour of prison in the, oh, God, the late 80s, early 90s, Terrence and I corresponded a bit. He was so kind to reach out.

Then he became very ill. DeVosite chat occasionally. We are helping various groups. Terrence was incredibly courageous and those days academically you risked your career he was saying the word psychedelic

and it was so verboten that speaking public was unthinkable but there was Terrence with his gift of gab out there saying it all for us those that had no voice

I just I really want to emphasize what a nightmare it is that people like you are being put in prison. What a nightmare it is for, and I mean this with all of my soul. What are we losing here? People like you, people as brilliant as you, people with a genuine desire to help humanity are currently locked. Locker. up in prison for no reason. You know, people look back on the inquisition. People look back on, you know, early Christians being fed the lions, early Christians being imprisoned. And they think, wow, well, thank goodness we're not doing that anymore, even though it's still happening.

Oh, but we are doing it. Unfortunately, there are only a few hundred people in state prisons and psychedelics and two or three in federal prisons based purely on psychedelics. That is a, that is a crime against humanity because we need the alchemists and the scientists and the humanitarians doing their work freely without fear of arrest. And that would always color the experience, at least for me, is that you were in danger of going to jail for holding this stuff. And so... For all of life since the age of 21 until 55,

when it actually really happened. You know, one learns some things. It's not entirely total oppression. One goes into a monk-like state, at least personally, into a month-like state. Of course, the other monks are very rowdy, to stab each other in that sort of thing. But there are lessons that I wouldn't advise one learning these lessons on such a matter,

but one does a lot of endless soul searching under certain circumstances. And that can be very helpful to test your faith. What kind of things happen to you? Do you have any prison stories? Prison stories, a lot of those. people often ask me prison stories because it's the easiest accessible stuff

and I always counter it with goodness you can see that on YouTube lots of prison stories but you can't really see what goes on inside a psychedelic lab of a serious yeah I would much rather hear about psychedelic prayers than prison stories

but prison stories abound goodness I was a maximum security from the first day, fast forward, slow forward, 20 years to the last day, all in maximum. So like Ted Kaczynski level, isolation, is that what you mean? Well, there's one level above maximum for a few hundred men in which they never see daylight or each other and they're kept in single cells for the TV forever.

Those are the mad bombers and what have you. But the next level below that is maximum security. That's where are the most violent, the lifers, the gangs. The most heinous crimes, one can possibly imagine, crimes that are so humanly reprehensible that would be difficult for me to speak publicly about exactly what they were. But, yeah, it was not in common to try to get through a lunch with someone that had killed two

small girls, that sort of thing, and not in self. How did they react to why you were there? Well, it was interesting. I was an anomaly, something of an anomaly in the system. I was considerably older. the average age is 36, the average education is in ninth grade. Goodness. Well, there's some good stories around it.

I was generally considered the professor. Everyone has a nickname. I'm the professor, and I'm the guy in the library that does legal work all the time or reads all the time, not involved in gang activity, what have, although there were some close calls. but one day a fellow walked up but this is interesting I'm in the lion and the chow hall

and gangs are separated racially and they're all glowering at each other and I'm in the line going in there and this big strapping 30-something 6-5 all-muscled up guy behind me said are you Leonard

and I turned and looked up and went oh yes he said we've all been praying for you man and it turned out he was sort of a hash shmuggler from Canada that had been on the festival trail and followed the dead around

all this sort of thing and knew everything and he became my confidant and if you will protect her all I did money and I don't have And a dear friend for many years, he's went on to gain his own freedom after 11 years is now living quite happily. So things like what happened. How did you get released?

What, weren't you in there for life? How did you get out? Yes, I had two life sentences back to back, oh, rather concurrently. How does that work? Without the possibility of parole, that means no way. home. No way home. A death sentence. Yeah. You stay there to you fall over on the ground and die. So in 2020, the Trump administration passed something called the First Step Act on the last week of a congressional session in 2018, bipartisan a bill, which would, if it had not occurred

in those days, it might have taken 10 years to come back around. That was a miracle. number one. This allowed prisoners to petition the court directly for release, stating their good works of their rehabilitation, exceptional circumstances. Right. So I followed one of the first petitions that took a couple of years to percolate through. It was denied at every level. Denied by the ward of the institution, denied by the regional bureau office. Denied by the Denied with the national office a year and a half two years later. Denied by the U.S. Attorney's Office, no, or not under any circumstances in the sense is letting the guard out of prison period.

And then landed on the desk of a jurist, a new, to describe my attorney as the best judge in Kansas, very kind nearing retirement jurist, who had perhaps a judge. greater vision. Yeah. And a stroke of a pin. A man thousands of miles away

that I'd never met, never seen. A stroke of a pin. I was sent free under compassionate release. Wow. Due to age, due to a good behavior inside, due to

their publicly their concerns about my vulnerability to the COVID epidemic. But since they had intended to to die there, that seems a little odd. Yeah. Plus, there are a lot of men my age and have served that amount of time that are still there.

So we think that a big factor in it was to the motion for release, we attached a copy of the Rand Corporation's book called The Future of Fentanil. And the chapter three discusses my work on the 90s. Kennedy School in Cambridge. Wow. predicting that one day this thing, a drug called fentanyl, would become a major drug epidemic in 96.

Wow. But it took 20 years for it to happen. Wow. So Rand noted this in their book. We attached a copy of that to the motion saying, we predicted this quite early and made suggestions or recommendations for anticipating it and maybe moderating it somewhat.

We said it's coming, and here's why, and here's how to have early warning, and here's how to push back on it, but nobody would listen. So Rand Corporation, the think tank in Santa Monica published all this, and we attached that motion. We think that was helpful in the judge's decision, but it's not the type of thing the government we want to admit. That is, how long are you in there?

How long are you in there? 20 years. So you leave maximum security prison and in a completely different world than you entered. Technologically, I, well. Very much so. The girls were much younger. They dressed a little different. But what was your,

You know, from your perspective, having, you know, existed in a space that many people will never even know their entire lives, what was your take on the zeitgeist when you left prison? One of the most notorious, prolific LSD manufacturers in the world steps out into a new world with the Internet. with all of this insane technology what did you think well i'm i'm i like i'm enjoy new gadgets me too so um even though my weekly phone calls my uh small son from five to 25 i encourage him to read the great books and put the cell phone down yeah when i stepped into a world where we have suddenly you know when i left it was uh phone booze. When I come out, everyone has these portable

computers and constantly looking at them as they walk along the street. Suddenly we have worldwide instant, effectively free communication among millions of people. We simultaneously have access to

effectively all the world's knowledge in our fingertips. In the mid-90, up until the mid-90s it was so. If you wanted a of data, you would go to a big library, University of California, Berkeley, big library, millions of books, and go to the little wooden card catalog and filtered through by hand until you came up with an index card that may have the information, refer to a book, and may have the information you want on it, then spend all day down in the stacks

pulling out these tombs, and then finding the page with the information you wanted. Right. That was one's entire life. Yeah. For 50 years doing that. And suddenly, on this small device, there is your installation like that. Yeah. Plus, you can call anyone in the world.

You can email anyone in the world. That was like a revolution of the first magnitude. So I was very delighted to see smartphones come along. I'd never seen one before. And, of course, I tell a funny story about that often. Please. If you don't mind, I'd love to hear it again. First cell phone? Okay. Right.

So suddenly the order comes down from the federal course. A few days later, the BOP hears about it marches me up, and suddenly I'm pushing 1,000 pounds of legal materials that accumulated over 20 years of weekly litigation, denied by the government 8,900 motions all the way out. Suddenly I'm on a t-shirt, a pair of jeans,

$200 in my pocket, and I'm in a van with a government employee driving along the road. I hadn't seen cars in 20 years. Everything looked like stretching to the horizon. I realize, my God, we live in these machines constantly any hours a day when these multi-toned devices to move us

to see your friend 50 miles away when friends are arms reach away. Prisons are like a small village. You see everybody, a thousand men, hello, hello, hello, every day. Everything's within arm's reach. And suddenly the world, which things are in quite distance

in these massive machines, frail elderly ladies driving these powerful things. Stretching to the horizon, they all look the same. They're all like clamshells. I'm pondering this. Watching the desert flow by and seeing living plants and cat died for the first time. So many years.

Then there is the bus station. Suddenly I'm alone. Van drives away. It's the first time that I haven't had an individual with an arm's reach in two decades. Wow. First time I haven't been on direct government control with gun towers. This episode of the DTFA. has been brought to you by better help. Friends, you know what I don't like New Year's resolutions.

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but I haven't seen a flower in quite a while. So I look at the flower for a while, and I think about the fragility of life and the unspeakable beauty that is at hand everywhere we return the glory, a glory of the world and the simple, living,

fragile creature. And after about 20 minutes of commuting that way, I wake up and go into the bus station fishing around for some quarters to call my family. Gee, no phone booths. Oh shit

Where'd all the phone booths go So I had seen cell phones on movies On televisions Eight televisions Hanging from the ceiling on 24 hours a day Blasting away And I'd seen in movies People pick up these devices

So I knew what they looked like And I see this young brother All Blamed up Talking on his cell phone So you're he learned to be very polite in prison so you don't get killed. I walk over and said, he looks up at me like, what's this tall a guy want?

And I go, excuse me, sir, I just got out of prison. Could I give you $5 to call my family? And he sort of takes me in, and he's cool. And he says, forget the $5, man, here. Call him yourself. And he gives me this device, a device. And I go, thanks. Has it worked?

And he's looking at me quizzically, and I handed back to him and go, man, I mean, I've been away a really long time. Could you call him? And so he went, beep, beep, beep. And there we were. And that was my first love affair with a cell phone. Wow. That is so cool.

Yeah, now I have to remind myself not to doomscroll on Insta every day. Yeah, I mean, this, you know, I think Tim Leary, or was it McKinnett, one of them, maybe it was both. Maybe it was Leary. They were saying the internet was a psychedelic, that this thing that's kind of, you know, is this a new psychedelic. Jim saw it early. He thought computers were the absolute next revolution. He was absolutely correct about that.

Yeah. Yeah, he called it and I just sometimes, you know, even being steeped in it, not having all that time to not be around constant communication, it seems a bit dystopian when you're walking down the street and everyone's staring into their rectangles. Absolutely. Absolutely. When I went away, there were no smartphones. I had a blackberry. I'd never seen a video screen before. We're just little blackberries and buzzers for, you know, hip, hip messaging, what have you. And that was it. Yeah. To now, see. Yeah. A lot of people just simply staring at the screens, I can't disavow that. I realize it's sort of cutting into our previous face-to-face discussions. But I see it as such a treasure in terms of the information coming in.

I love the idea of the information to flow that access to the world's data instantly. So I think it's good in that way. I don't see it as necessarily separating us. See it as perhaps bringing us closer by making our meetings more efficient. You can have simultaneous conversations going on with four or five people. I see it as more of an. ally than a detriment. Great to hear.

I go back and forth on it myself. Though I do recognize a vampire only goes where they're invited and whatever your algorithm is showing you is a reflection of what your interests happen to be so you can't necessarily like blame social media companies for that.

But I just want to go back to that beautiful prayer that you're intoning upon creating so much LSD versus the intent behind much of what we're encountering on these devices. The algorithms use BF Skinner's work intentionally to create these very addictive, sticky drugs. These, it's like, and if you shift, and I just don't think we're here yet, but I feel

like we will be, people I don't think recognize. that this is a drug that we are taking in through different orifices. You're not injecting it or putting it in your mouth, but this is a drug. It shifts consciousness, changes mood states. It harmonizes, definitely has this quality of harmonizing us, but the way it's harmonizing us seems to be quite divisive because the algorithm understands that people are just more interested in seeing chaos.

And this isn't a new story or anything like that. I'm just saying if we look at this as a drug, I'm pretty sure the many of the people involved in where it's at right now, they're not saying beautiful prayers as they upload their house. There's thousands of PhDs to get up every morning and specifically go to work to how do we make this stickier? Yes. How do we keep people looking and scrolling on, have you?

but I, maybe this is probably any issue about it, but, you know, it really all, whatever you're doing generally boils down to you're looking at people on the social media. You are interacting with people, looking at people, talking to people, and we'd be happening very rapidly, you know, blinding a range of access to a novel personality and what have you as opposed to a long conversation with a friend as we're having today. Right. But I, you know, it's like drowning in a deluge of dopamine induced by simply looking at people or enacting people. So I don't see that as necessarily dehumanizing. I got to show you my Instagram reel sometime. You'll change your opinion. Okay.

For our audience, this, you know, this must be said. For our audience, so Duncan and I were in the green room and how good. in this meow wolf a while back. And he walks in, in his bearded, mannerly way, this beautiful priest robe on. What are we up to here when he, that was fine, but he had these three lavish sisters, backup singers with him, they're all stuff,

you know, dancing skin-tight sequence. And this was all in the green room. I go, what's going to go down? We float out to the platform. There are several hundred people there, sort of dancing to EDM. And I say a few words and this sort of thing. And then Duncan gets up behind the podium, the platform like a Southern Baptist Evangelist, and raises his arms and suddenly against the walls who projected these great big cartoon-like projections.

And he's perfectly coordinated what he said. So his stick, if you will, was totally beautifully scripted to be wild and flamboyant. Meanwhile, the sisters are starting to gyrating, you know, seeing the mics and doing bobshebop backgrounds. And he's there in his robe with his huge cartoons in the walls where he's channeling, oh, excuse me, a shopping mall in Iowa, fabulous stuff. So we all had a great. Thank you. Thank you.

Yeah, it was so cool to see you there. And, you know, yeah, well, that was sort of a, that idea sort of always interested me. You know, this show I made for Netflix, The Midnight Gospel, is related to the simulation hypothesis. And sort of the, Jaron Lanier wrote a great book. Yes, Jaron was the last husband of my first wife. What? Who also gave Rick Doblin's first MDMA. Small world.

Well, I've never met him personally, but I love his work. And, you know, he paints a picture of this sort of, you know, Skinner Box, this Skinnerbox possibility. This is where technology sort of infiltrates the zeitgeist to the point that our view of reality is no longer reality. but this very addictive sort of marionette that's making us all emotionally dance around. And it's inescapable. And so you see where this stuff is going, you know. I wouldn't be afraid of it, Duncan. You know, you can't say we're being sucked into constantly attending to these devices all day long.

I find it very empowering. I like being able to reach out to friends very quickly, coordinate social life. I love it. I like the deluge of information rolling through us. It's extremely exciting. I don't, I know I'm coming across as some kind of like technical, like some kind of Ludditeite. And I'm not, I love it.

I'm thrilled by it too. But I, you know, when you, when you sort of, I'm sorry, I just veer back to like John Lily's. revelations that he had in that float tank, the communication with some kind of machine intelligence that was attempting to sort of infiltrate our planet. We're doing it more now with AI. You know, I'm on the AI models. You know, I have pro and ultra and heavy.

They're incredible. I'm on them all day long from the time I wake up tonight. I find them like having a great ally. Ah, well, listen, maybe. Look, look, we worry about it thinking better than. And we, and indeed, it's already there. I think we already have AGI. I agree.

But we can be afraid of it, like this is going to take over the world. But think of it as cars. We don't have the muscular jury to run more than four or five miles an hour. But, you know, I don't have the muscular to run more than three if she wishes. Say that again. I'm sorry. I was to cut you off with a really dumb joke. No, no, sorry.

Same here. But billions of people are empowered by, by machines already in terms of physical prowess. You could try 500 miles a day, maybe walk 20. Right. No, listen, you can be afraid of it. You can worship it. You can avoid it if you want to try.

It doesn't matter. It's what's happening. This is the direction. Everything is going in and there's nothing your fear is going to do to stop it. And so to me, though, it's more. It's just fascinating to prognosticate where it's going. And where it's going is obviously we're merging with this technology. It's us.

It's a reflection of us. It will be inside of us. Hey, Ontario. Come on down to BetMGM Casino and check out our newest exclusive. The Price is Right Fortune Pick. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show. Only at BetMGM.

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students had met in the library and this sort of thing, sort of in the geek love, if you will. And it did so. It was kind of a working man's thousand-word essay. And then, oh, goodness, a month later, the more advanced model, it wrote the same piece, but the nuances that were so subtle was like very good writing. And I got a little afraid thinking, where will this thing be in a few years. But not a few years hence, and we have reasoning models of great power. I don't think we should cower in the corner of thinking superintelligence is going to take over everything and eliminate us as a species or be a patron state.

I think we should engage it fully, train it, dance with it, be friendly with it, and be friendly to us. I think it's the greatest advance I've seen in my lifetime. scientifically medically. And I have to, I can't name the name, but I was with a high official at Open AI the other day, the people that do chat GPT. Yeah. And we were having dinner.

And he wanted to know about psychedelics. I mentioned the prayer. And then I said to him at a couple. I said to him, you know, you, folks at Open AI, are an extraordinarily powerful position. You are responsible, perhaps, for the future of our species, which way it knows now, the next few years, presently. That's a responsibility that is incomprehensible.

But it is real, and here you are. And one day, soon, you're going to get a phone call saying, AGI, Artificial General Intelligence has manifested. It is real. It is life. It is growing. It is self-training. It is self-teaching.

It does not need us anymore to program to assist or defeat data. it is growing rapidly to superintelligence. It is the greatest confrontation of our species in history. And what are you going to do in that moment when you unleashed an energy that you can never control that will affect millions of lives that blow? What are you going to do? And I suggested that he may want to think about the same prayer

Yeah The same prayer Because you can't control it You can't guide it It's out there in the world You can only say May this be a benevolent force in the world May it do no harm

Wow That Look I hope we never stop talking That you are just Well I'll be in Austin in two weeks I'll see you in two weeks weeks. I'll see you mid-January. Ah, yeah, great. Yeah, you got to meet our, you got to meet our new baby.

New baby. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. You are so awesome. Thank you so much for the time. Nothing better than a new baby. What could be better? I mean, we're talking about miracles and engineering, if you will, and consciousness, but there will never be any greater miracle than than a new baby. Nothing, nothing more miraculous. I mean, nothing more mysterious. Yeah, it's the most beautiful thing ever. Absolutely. Well, you looked a little sleepy this morning. I guess that explains it.

Yeah, it does, man. Yeah. But it's, you know, it's a beautiful experience. And, you know, and this just, I couldn't think of anyone better to get to have a conversation with in the midst of having a, being in the middle of hanging out with the new baby than you. Well, Elon's very well new babies. I think he's, what, 13 now? What's that? Yeah.

Yeah, I'm trying to catch up. Thank you so much now. I'm getting there. I have a fun little Elon story. So I'm in Austin last month and you were out of town. And my friend and I drove over to the great plant, if you will, huge facility. for a Tesla. Yeah.

So Sunday and no one's in the parking lot. We're just going over to pay our respects and admire this grand scheme. Yeah. All these evil people doing these wonderful things. We sort of pull in the parking lot. We're admiring the building. Suddenly, zoom, zoom, cyber trucks appear. Zoom, zoom.

Security and cyber trucks. And we say, excuse me. Excuse me. We were just paying our respects and quietly did a U-turn and left. But they were very curious and gentlemanly. I feel like you and you all hit it off. I've heard, you know, I know someone who got to see some of the robots in one of the factories, and how wild that is to see, you know, Charlie, the chocolate factory, but it's not oompa-lumpas.

It's these robots. I just finished the Isaacson's biography of Elon. who I do truly admire. Same. But every 100 pages, even though I have some unusual personal habits, every hundred pages that go, what a man. I know. I know.

I can't. Yeah. How are we mad at this guy? He's like trying to make us a galactic civilization. People are pissed off him. Rockets. Okay. I'm sorry you don't get somebody making robots,

cyber trucks and rockets. who's like going to act normal. That's just, you don't. Right. Agreed. He's a little different. And, you know, I mean, yes. What are you want?

What a brood coming and probably more on the way. But more power to him. More power of the great thinkers. May his actions be benevolent. Yes. Absolutely. And look, I want to talk a little bit before we split. You've started a Patreon.

And can we talk about your podcast on there? We can. I actually started not my thing normally I'm doing it my employer asked me to do some videos interviewing leading biotech figures for our work as part-time for advisor to investment fund the investment fund JLS dot fund he asked me to to do these and I've certainly very much enjoyed it So I'm on Patreon at The Last Alchemist. I've done six so far, another 26 lined up next year. But it's been glorious.

I interviewed Jonathan Sporne, the first one, the CEO Gilgamesh, which is the great Ibogaine Analogne firm that was just sold at V for $1.2 billion. Wow. So it's the largest psychedelic deal in history. No, dearity. And I said that sort of thing. And I got Hamilton, a dear friend, Hamilton. He's awesome.

And you are invited. Anytime. Another great mind. On Tuesday, right. I can't be with those people. But I'd love to. Listen, any chance I get to have a conversation with you, I'll take it. Let's do it.

Let's do it. Well, you know what? When you come into town, if you want to record one here, at the studio, maybe we could work it out. That'd be great. I'd love to just do. I'd like to see the baby, frankly, and maybe to school at the Chavez and have some tea. Okay, great.

Great. And if you want to record your Patreon here, let's do it. Oh, great. Thanks. Looks great. Okay, beautiful. Thank you so much, Leonard. You're the best.

That was incredible. Thank you. Thank you, Duncan. Very well. Are we done? Yeah. That was about an hour. That's it.

That was Leonard Picard, everybody. Do subscribe to his Patreon. It's the last Alchemist podcast. Check out his book, The Rose of Paraclesis, and send him some love. He deserves it. Thank you all for listening. I'll see you soon with a conversation with Jack Cornfield. Thanks for tuning in.