Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Donny Cates

Episode Date: February 4, 2017

Donny Cates (God Country, Heavy Metal) talks about his insane and highly inspirational journey into comic book stardom.

You've been making better decisions for your busy family for years and now little by little you're making decisions for yourself like snacking a little better, going a little further, sleeping a little deeper and we're here to make that journey easier and even more rewarding with Acme's new sincerely health platform featuring nutrition plans, prescription reminders and more. So sign up in the Acme mobile app to earn up to $25 in grocery rewards. Visit AcmeMarkets.com slash health for more details. This episode of the DTFH is brought to you by the Sleep Angels over at Casper.com.

It's time for you to get rid of that oily old stained raft of doom and replace it with a sweet Casper. All you gotta do is go to Casper.com forward slash family hour, news offer code family hour and you will get $50 towards a brand new mattress. Casper. Hello my dear sweet children of the moon. It is I D Trussell and you are listening to the Duncan Trussell family hour podcast and today is Friday, February 3rd.

This is a very special day because this will be the last day that I spend in Ari's beautiful mansion in New York City. Our stuff finally arrived at my new place and I gotta admit it's going to be tough to leave the palatial grounds of this incredible place with its beautiful ostriches, the monkey house, the perfumery, the massage area, the glory holes, the endless vats of high grade lubricant around every single corner to head from such a oasis in the midst of the busy lunacy of New York City to my new place, a small four bedroom brownstone with not even an Olympic size pool, just a basic size pool and a fairly normal jacuzzi and UV sauna system

is going to be tough but I didn't come out here to have it easy. I didn't come out to New York City so that I could lull around in the incredible grounds of Ari's beautiful estate. I didn't come to New York City so that I could spend day after day after day inhaling high grade hashish and opium and floating around the lazy river that moves through his mansion. I didn't come to New York City so that I could enjoy endless fisting sessions with his Peruvian masseuse Dunuta. I came here to work and so I'm going to leave.

I'm not going to stay. Ari has not returned. He's still in Myanmar. The ostriches are starting to get depressed. His psychic has indicated to me that Ari has made contact with some angel or entity somewhere in Myanmar and the transmission that he's going to receive is going to be so powerful that Ari could truly come back to the United States with a new name and potentially with powers that will allow him to reign supreme over the entire planet.

I don't know. It could be true. Ari's a mysterious fellow but I got a lot of packing to do now. I've got to get all my stuff gathered up from the various rooms. I've got to pick up a couple of my gyms that I left in his gymery and then I got to go. I got to turn the key in to his butler Ramon and head on out. So I don't have a lot of time to do much of an intro here and you know what? This podcast doesn't really need an intro because this is my favorite kind of podcast.

His guest, Donnie Cates, is a writer. He writes comic books and he is a hard worker who achieved his dreams and we talk about this here. So if you're looking for some inspiration, if you want to get a little affirmation that your instincts regarding hard work are correct, you know actually there is a, you know, a one of my friends told me there's a Mexican saying and I know I'm going to fuck it up. This is a friend of mine who lived in Mexico for a while but the Mexican saying is something like there's no problem that working 12 hours a day can't fix and I think that's a very

simple and beautiful truth which is that if you look at your situation, whatever it may be, however miserable it may be, of course there are clearly exceptions for this. For example, you might currently be attached to meat hooks being slowly dropped down into a vat of acid by people in the mafia. Maybe your toenails haven't even touched the acid yet but the fumes from the vat are making your eyes water and there's just pretty much nothing you could do. You've got fish hooks attached to the medius parts of your body and armed guards are watching as you slowly, slowly are dropped into this vat of liquefying doom.

So in that case, yeah, 12 hours of hard work probably isn't really going to do much for you but if you consider your situation, that being the exception, then more than likely there's more that you can be doing than what you're doing right now. You can work harder, you could do more. Shit, even if you are getting lowered down into the vat, maybe if you figure out a way to wriggle in the right way or swing or make a distraction, there's always hope. And so whenever I get to talk to people who have gotten where they are, not by some stroke of good luck or some, I don't know, bit of coincidence, by the way, I don't think I've

ever talked to anyone like that, whenever I talk to people who have gotten to where they're at through hard fucking work and focus and risk, then it always inspires me, it makes me want to work harder, makes me want to risk more, makes me want to think about my intentions behind things. So I think you're really going to love this episode. We're going to dive right into it, but first some quick business. Ramon, can you bring me another glass of sherry, please? Yes.

This episode of the DTFH is brought to you by Casper.com. There's no need for you to be withering away on that awful, squeaky, oily poop mat that you call your bed. My God, there is a spectrum of pleasure in this universe, friends. There is a spectrum of pleasure and there's no reason that your bed should be on the wrong side of that spectrum. You should look forward to laying down in the soft, beautiful, glorious field of sleep called your mattress, not dreading that moment when your body connects with a thing that's

basically a glue trap for mice at this point. It's so covered with your fever, sweats and tears and the psychic energy of your trembling nightmares being induced by the fact that you're laying on a cube of death instead of relaxing on an island of sweet tranquility. And that's what a Casper mattress will offer you. I sleep on a Casper mattress and that's all you need to know, friends. But there are some required talking points, some stuff you need to know if you're thinking about making the leap into a Casper.

It's an obsessively engineered mattress at a shockingly fair price. It combines springy latex and supportive memory fumes to create an award-winning sleep service with just the right sink and just the right bounce. The bounce part, you know what that means. It's good for jumping on. Time Magazine named it one of the best inventions of 2015. An award-winning mattress that won't disappoint. Re-shipping and returns to U.S. and Canada.

Try Casper for 100 nights risk-free in your own home. If you don't love it, they'll pick it up and refund you everything. It is made in America. All you gotta do is go to casper.com forward slash family hour and use offer code family hour and you will get $50 towards any mattress purchase. Fumes and conditions apply. Casper.com forward slash family hour, use offer code family hour. And if you don't like it, just send it back.

Send that oily old thing back if for some reason it's not good enough for your body, your precious body that's gotta be on some $6 million mattress made out of fur of animals that loved and lived in the forest. That's your thing. Fine. That's your fur mattress, you monster. Lay on the pelts of thousands of animals that only wanted to frolic in the glades. But I'm gonna take it Casper.

Casper.com forward slash family hour, offer code family hour. A huge thank you to those of you who continue to use our Amazon link. Fantastic way to show that you love this podcast. All you gotta do the next time you wanna buy some configuration of matter that you can get from Amazon and they have every configuration of matter buyable on this planet at amazon.com, go through the link at dunkintrustle.com, go through the portal, buy something through Amazon. You know what?

I'm on the precipice of buying friends. I'm on the precipice of buying the new PlayStation HD super system and the VR goggles that go along with it. I know that's stupid because I already have an HTC Vive but I've moved into this apartment and I don't know. Wait, no. I moved into a five bed. I lied earlier.

Fuck it. I don't know if I've ever, where I can set up a Vive in my New York apartment. But anywho, that's what I'm thinking about buying from wonderful Amazon.com and maybe you should consider getting something like that too. Just go through the link first, won't you? We also have t-shirts, posters. For those of you who have been writing, sorry, this move has been incredibly distracting and I have not been paying attention to this shop but we're going to restock it soon.

There's still some stuff in there if you want to get some cool DTFH mystical swag. It's there for you friends and shoot, I guess that's it. Oh yes, February 21st. I'm going to be doing a show at the Bell House in Brooklyn and boy do we have a really, really cool guest for this one guys. February 21st, tickets are located in the calendar at Dunkin' Trestle.com. If you're a psychonaut, this is definitely a good show for you friends. So I guess that's it.

February 21st at Bell House. Oh yeah, if you want to go deep, I'm going to be doing the Springer treat in Maui with Romdoss in May. I'll be doing live podcasts there if you want to come and hang out in Hawaii. It's an inevitably great time and as much as I'm loving this New York winner, I'm looking forward to laying on the beach in Maui and I hope you'll join me. All right, that's it. Today's guest is a comic book writer who currently has a hit comic book out on the shelves.

Actually it's not on the shelves because it's sold out. It's called God Country and it's amazing. Download the PDF if you don't feel like waiting for the reissue to come out because it's so smart. He's an amazing writer who I had the extreme pleasure and honor of working with. I met him at San Diego Comic Con. We came up with an idea for Heavy Metal Magazine and you can see that in the flesh in December's episode issue of Heavy Metal Magazine, we did that with the amazing artist Andy Bellinger.

So now everyone, send deep, deep tendrils into the darkest, most uncharted parts of your subconscious mind and allow those tendrils to suction that hidden reservoir of creative juice deep from within you. Allow it to transfuse your entire body, pushing out any blocks, obstacles, or anything keeping you from achieving absolute creative euphoria and in that moment of pure bliss as you recognize the power of your creative self exploding out of you like some magma rocketing out of a super volcano underneath a pathetic human city. Direct that blast of glorious energy to the astral plane so that it may connect with the

mind of today's guest, the glorious Donnie Cates. Welcome to the DTFH, it is so cool to have you on, thank you so much for being a guest on the show. Oh, thanks for having me, dude, I'm so excited. You are a rock star in the world of comic books. I tried to, I went to a comic book store here in New York to pick up a copy of God Country because I only have the first PDF that you sent to me, they're like, when I asked about it, they acted like somebody at the Apple store on the first day of the release of an

iPhone. Like they looked at me like, really? You think you can get a copy of that? No way. Yes, they're like, yeah, it's sold out. It's all sold out. How does that feel, man? You are right.

I mean, you've got like a hit comic book series right now on Image Comics. It's got to be one of the coolest feelings on earth. It's a fucking trip, man. It really is. You know, so me and Jeff Shaw, who's the guy who draws that book, he's an amazing artist. He's amazing. Oh yeah. Oh my God.

I have worked together twice before. While those books were positively received and everything, it's nothing like this. Jeff was actually here in Austin for the release of the book and we did a signing and everything. So we were just hanging out the entire day and we weren't able to really get on Twitter or really gauge the reaction of it. And then, yeah, we got home that night to the news that it had sold out and we're going to a second printing and all this stuff and I think, I mean, well, Jeff said it best really where he was just like, you know, we can only fuck this up now.

We can only really ruin this now. Well, I mean, yeah, that's actually a scary and great point. And isn't that one of the scary things about getting momentum is that the faster you go, the more you can hurt yourself. And I'm sure when it comes to, I mean, I don't know how far ahead you've planned out this series, but you've, you know, and again, unfortunately, I've only read the PDF that you sent me and which is amazing and has the, you know, it's such a deep, poignant story mixed in with what seems like it's potentially going to be incredible, you know, with a mythical

overt that's if you've hit, you've brought these two wires together and that's really brilliant way. Yeah, I could see how keeping that level of storytelling going, man, that is, that could be really stressful. Well, the thing is, is like, it's this that you, you know, the way that comic book scheduling goes is, you know, you're working so far in advance. So I've, you know, I've written, you know, all of it, like it's all done. Oh, wow.

It's only, it's only a six issue story. It's a mini series. Oh, okay. Yeah. We wanted to tell a very short contained kind of, you know, a complete story, you know. Do you regret that now? Like, did, had you known that this, that it was going to take off the way it did, would you have maybe made it go on a little bit longer?

No, man, I, you know, I've, you're not the only person who's asked me that and, you know, I, I'm a big fan of endings, man. I think that stories are, are, you know, are only really made powerful by their third acts. Um, and, you know, this is kind of hard for me to talk about because no one's read the rest of the book. But, you know, I think once people read the book, they'll understand that this is, we, we're trying to accomplish something.

We're trying to say something, you know, um, you know, I think that anyone who's read that first issue can tell that it's not just a book about like giant Jack Kirby gods. No. We're, we're trying to do a thing, you know, well, the, the, the idea of the forgetful God, how, you know, that, that being sort of the representation, a lot of people think that's what all of us are, you know, that we're, we're kind of collectively God with Alzheimer's disease. Was that intentional?

Did you, did you, did you draw off of those ideas that human beings are actually God with a kind of amnesia? No, I mean, to be completely honest, where God country came from, um, by the way, sorry spoiler guys, if you didn't read the first episode, but not really a spoiler, because I think that I think it's kind of up for interpretation. The, the, the thing that you just said about, you know, the, I mean, yeah, I think everyone knows that it's about Alzheimer's and, and, and Kirby gods and stuff like that. Um, but not really.

I mean, I, I, I kind of had a bit of a profound medical thing happen to me about like two years ago. Uh, I had pancreatitis. Uh, I don't know if you are familiar with that or sounds horrible. Not familiar. It's a fucking bummer, man. Uh, yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's incredibly painful. Um, and it was, uh, it was pretty life altering, you know, like I turned 30 and like within

like the first like two months of being 30, my body just started shutting down on me. You know? Um, so you go through something like that where you kind of go through your 20s thinking you're invincible and stuff and drinking your head off and, you know, doing all kinds of wild shit and then it catches up with you really hard. Um, and so, you know, two years ago, I, you know, I went through that thing and kind of had a, like a, I touched my own mortality. That makes any sense.

You know? I had a brush with that idea that things can just go away, you know? Um, was it, is, is, can pancreatitis have a terminal prognosis or were you concerned it could have been something more than pancreatitis? Here's the thing about pancreatitis is, so when it happened to me, I woke up at like three in the morning, um, see, I felt like somebody had shot me, like right below my sternum, like your, like your pancreas is kind of dead center in the middle of your body.

Um, yeah. And so, I mean, it just felt like trying to, I mean, it's, it's really kind of impossible to explain. It's the absolute most amount of pain that I've ever experienced in my life. And I've read other reports from people who have like given birth and also had pancreatitis or compare it to like kidney stones and they've, they've all said that pancreatitis is far and away, like just one of the worst things that's ever happened. I wouldn't wish, I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.

Um, but I went to the emergency room and the doctor came in and he, he knew immediately what it was. They shot me up with morphine twice. It did nothing. Um, and then they came in and they shot me up with dilaudid. Oh yeah. It was just heroin. Yes.

Um, and I could, I was still in pain. Two shots of morphine, one shot of heroin. Jesus. And I was still in agony, but at that point I just didn't care because I was so stoned out of my mind. Yeah. Um, and basically the doctor told me, look, there's two things that are going to happen here.

I'm going to go, I'm going to go run your blood work and there's two options. One, this is acute in which case you're going to be in pain for about three months. And then it'll go, cause there's nothing, there's actually nothing they can do to actually calm the pancreas itself down. What causes it? Well, in my case, um, I didn't really have the healthiest of lifestyles I was drinking to God damn much. I'm sober now, um, as a result of this, um, like it literally took a punch in the stomach

to get me to, to like, wise up, right? Oh fuck. Yeah. So the doctor said, you know, um, he said it's either going to be acute in which case, you know, it's going to hurt for three months and then it'll start to go away, but you have to change your diet and all this stuff, or it's chronic and it's never going to go away. Oh Christ. Yeah.

Yeah. He left and there was like this, I hate to get into such a downer like right away in the podcast, but to explain like kind of where this book came from, I think it's important. I, so, you know, I, I was alone, I mean, I was with my wife, but I mean, I was so stoned out of my head and in pain, everything was a haze, right? Um, and I had this moment where I thought about what that doctor said and was like, man, I'm, I'm like 10 minutes away from finding out what the rest of my life looks like. Yeah.

And, and if it ends up being chronic, like, I don't, I don't think I'm going to do that. Like, you know, like I kind of had a, I had, I made a choice that like, if this is what the rest of my life is going to be like, then like, I don't want to live like that, you know, and making that choice, not actually going through with it, you know, I didn't take my own life or anything, but like consciously making that choice in your head is profound. Like it's such a profound thing to happen to your own psyche, to just decide that. Yes. And it was, there was no doubt in my mind that that was what was going to happen, you

know. Now, you know, all things being equal, I wasn't on a lot of drugs and a lot of pain. So maybe I would have gone a week afterwards and not done it or whatever. But at the time, it's certainly how I felt. He came back and he said that it was just a cute three months of the worst pain in real life, just three months, three months. Yeah. So like I was saying, you, they actually can't do anything to make the pancreas settle down.

All they can do is, is like fill you with pain pills until it calms down on its own. And so they gave me, I mean, what looked to be like a, like a, like a, like two Coke can stock, like, like stacked on top of each other full of pain pills. And my wife asked him, like, well, how often should I give him these? And the doctor literally said, anytime you want, and as many of them as he wants, like he's, he's not going to remember the next three months of his life. Good Christ. Yeah.

And it was, I mean, it was like that. I really don't, I have like clips of it, like a slideshow of that time of my life. I was, when this happened, I was two 10, I was like 210 pounds. Yeah. Um, inside of the first, I think like the first month and a half, I was down to 170. Holy shit. Yeah. Cause the other thing is that like you can't, you can't eat solid food either, uh, because

your pancreas sits right in front of your stomach. And so if your stomach enlarges it all, it'll put pressure on it. So I was on the liquid diet, you know, um, and you can't shit because you're on all those painkillers. Yeah. There's that. Um, yeah. Did you get hooked on the pain pills?

Did you get physically addicted? Oh, that's good. I mean, I, I, I guess I did during it, but I, but I needed them. Like it wasn't like I was getting high. It was just like, it was really just a thing of like, they were, I mean, for all intents and purposes, they were just like sleeping pills because the only thing I ever wanted to do was just like not be here because every moment I was awake was agony. You know?

Oh my God. Uh, it was terrible, but I will say this to any, um, any editors who are hearing this, I met all of my deadlines that entire time, turned in every script. Now they might not be that great because I don't really remember writing them, but I definitely turned them in. What a badass. What a badass. That's incredible.

I wouldn't do that. I'd be like, fuck this. I'm not doing shit. I'm going to get an Xbox, get in the world of Warcraft, start snorting these pain pills. You know, what's weird is that like as an unintended consequence, I now have this bizarre aversion to my hair being wet. So when my pancreas was so bad, for whatever reason, one of the only things, so like laying on your side hurts, like standing up hurts, everything hurts.

And so as a, as a, as a consequence, the only thing that really ever felt not good, but a relief was if I were to fill up my bathtub with salt and lay in a hot bathtub. And I would do it like five times a day. Like I would just go, I would get in it and I would just lay there like shaking. And as a consequence, my hair was wet that entire three months. And so to this day, like my hair being wet, like triggers some sort of like bizarre response and it like freaks me out. Yes.

And the other, the other, the other weird thing was that I couldn't get warm. Like my body couldn't get warm. Like so I was always freezing, like no matter what, like I would be sitting in like a steaming bathtub and I would just be like frozen. It was terrifying, man. I mean, it was, it was, it was, it was really fucking scary. And, and this gave you some inspiration. Yeah.

Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I mean, you, you, I think the best stories come out of personal experiences and while I'm not overly fond of that saying of, right, what you know, but I, I do think that, you know, having some sort of personal angle to come from it is important. But that same year, right? That same year, my brother had a baby. So in this same year, I was presented with my own mortality and like this beautiful new life that like had my last name on it and everything.

So you combine those two experiences and then you add in the fact that I'm from Texas and grew up rebating like Jack Kirby, Thor comics and God countries. It's not that much of a surprise that that's what comes out of it, you know. Yeah. Well, this is the, I mean, this is one of the, this is, I think one of the paradoxical aspects of catastrophe is that it inevitably, it has the potential at least to, uh, spawn beauty. Yeah. I mean, I don't think that's the only pathway to inspiration, but it definitely is a, is

a time honored pathway. And also think of what else happened, you know, that the pancreatitis sobered you up. Yeah, totally. Got you out of that terrible cycle. You must have been drinking a lot, man. I really was, man. I was drinking and I, you know, I don't mind talking about it now. Were you drinking all day long?

Yeah, I wasn't really, man. I, you know, it was, it was, um, I was drinking, I was a big wine guy and it was like, I've always been an insomniac and, you know, I think that if I had to guess most like writers or creative people probably are, um, and, you know, it was never of a, it was always like a, how do I turn this machine off? You know? And so I would just like get like blackout drunk every night. Um, it was, it was the wine really, it was the sugars, like the amount of wine that I

was drinking. I was drinking like a magnum of wine a night, which is insane. Um, a magnum of wine, I think is like two and a half bottles or something like that. Wow. Wow. You are drinking like a count. Yeah. Like a Viking, man.

Wow. Fuck. Fuck. Wow. Yeah. And your pancreas just got so soaked in sugar, it was just holy shit. Well, I'm so glad that you survived that, man. Me too, man.

Yeah. The thing is, is like, you know, it's, it's weird that it's ended up being like the best thing that ever happened to me, you know, um, I'm a really fucking stubborn dude. And like I said, like, I don't think it's any coincidence that it like literally took a punch to the gut to wake me up. And like in the two years that I've been sober now, it's been the most productive, like energetic in like positive time in my life. Like I'm getting so much more done, like my mind is clear.

I'm writing more, I'm writing better, you know? So it's been rad, man. It's been, I actually really love being sober. Yeah. You know what, man? This is so interesting. We're talking about this because I'm just reading this, uh, this grimoire that I found at this bookstore by Elifis, Elifis Levi you've ever heard of him, the great occultist.

And it's, um, it's really cool. What I love about grimoire's magical tomes is that it hands down, every single one of them has a warning in the beginning that says, don't, don't read this or it will drive you insane. Oh, that's great. It's the best way to get someone to read your shit. It's like, once you, oh, okay, I'm definitely reading this now. It's, but you know, and what's creepy about this particular, um, warning at the beginning

of this grimoire is that it, I read it and I laughed. And then the next line is you will try to laugh it away as you slowly go insane, but you will not be able to, yeah, it was really good. Like he knew we, people would laugh when, when this is a severe warning, but so the book goes into immediately what Crowley talks about, what Chogum, Trumpa talks about and what is pretty much in, um, every single, um, process of waking up, which is discipline. That's the very first thing. Yeah.

You must have, um, uh, basically what it, what he says is if you are not in control of yourself, then you are controlled by the world. If you are not taking control of yourself, then you will be hypnotized by whatever the thing is. You know, it does, it's not always booze, you know, any, anything really, video games, your phone, whatever the fucking thing is, will begin to make you its slave. And so that, I find that to be very inspiring and for you, this is discipline. You, you were, uh, touched by the Lord, so to speak.

Yeah. Yeah. By the devil, maybe. Um, same thing. Yeah. Yeah. I think the discipline part of it is, is a big, is a big, like, um, you know, cause I don't think it's shocking whatsoever that I have like whatever that addiction gene is,

you know, like whatever that is, I have it for sure. And so, you know, thankfully what's taken the place of drinking has just been writing and writing more. And so like, I don't even battle my insomnia anymore. I really don't even fucking, I don't even think about it cause I don't have a day job or anything. I don't have to go anywhere. Right.

So like if I just, if I can't sleep, I just go and write, just go and write until my eyes get blurry and I can't see. You're white school with that? Yeah. She's, she's a workaholic too. She runs a nonprofit out here in Austin, um, and she's, she's always working and everything too. And so like, I'll wake up and I'll write until she gets home.

And then when she gets home, I'll cook and I'll take, you know, uh, I'll basically take time off until she goes to bed. And then when she goes to bed, I go back to it. Wow. That's good. Man. So you have, when you're, when, so you are, how many projects are you working on right now?

Um, I probably eight or nine, something like that. How do you, I just don't, I do not understand. How you can keep that many plates spinning creatively. How can you possibly do that? How do you not, how do you keep one story from bleeding into another story? Well, it's, you know, that's something that I've always been able to, I've always kind of had a weird, like, um, beautiful minds, you know, that, that film, uh, or he can like do all the math and everything.

I've always kind of had this weird thing where if I, like, I could tell you right now on the phone, like when you and I were breaking down the simulationists on the phone and we would like stumble upon a good idea and you would say, write that down. I never did because I, I just have it all in my head. Like I could tell you every single thing that you and I have ever talked about for our book right now. Wow. And like I could do that with every book I've ever done.

Like you could pick up a book that I did three years ago and turned to a random page and I could tell you what's on that, on that page. Holy shit. It's just this bizarre thing that I do. I just love, I love story. I love like breaking story, like the coolest part of, of any breaking story, breaking story. Breaking story. Yeah.

Is that thing that you and I did, like when you, when you and I got on the phone and we're just like jamming and like you would throw out a cool idea and then I would throw out a cool idea. Yeah. And just like, I imagine it's, it's, it's, I mean, I, I'm not a comic or anything, but I imagine it's, it's, I guess writing comedy is a lot more solitary in a lot of ways, but I'm imagining that you guys could get together and like, like, like jam ideas and like tags and stuff, right?

Well, it, it does happen, but it is, I mean, at least for me, it's a solitary activity, but that moment when you realize that you've stumbled upon a joke, which it's, I mean, it's there, there are very few experiences that are equal to that feat. Well, there's two steps, of course. You like think you found this like linguistic equation that's comedic and then you don't know for sure. So you have to go into the laboratory, which is in front of the audience to test the equation. And then if the test is successful, even a little bit, like even if it gets a little

bit of laughter, you think, oh, there's some energy here, but I haven't focused it enough. And then you go back to the drawing board. So it does, it is collaborative, but the collaboration is not between comedians, even though that does happen sometimes, but it's more of a collaborative experience with an audience. Audiences are not even aware of the fact that if, that quite often they are collaborating with a comedian in their response to the joke. Yeah, that's really interesting.

I've always thought about like different art forms as like the degrees of immediacy, like the degrees of like how fast, the time between it, you know, being awakened in your mind and being in front of people, right, is like, I feel like stand up comedy is one of the most immediate ones, you know, where like film or like TV seems like the most like the longest distance. Yeah. Yes, that is right. And comics is this cool kind of like in between because like, I mean, you probably know, like,

I mean, and I've had some brushes with like trying to adapt some of my stuff into TV shows and stuff. And like, I've never really, I've never really caught into it very much, just because it's so it's such a crap shoot. It's so so many so distant. Yeah. There's so many people. There's so many obstacles in front of it, whereas with like comedy and with comics, like

the only obstacle really is you, you know, and that's why I love working with you, man, because we, you know, that was like my experience of, you know, in collaborating with people for stuff has almost solely been for like potential TV things or pitches or whatever. And that's a grueling process that as you, you know, for example, like there was a show idea that I had with my friend, Doug Pound, a really cool idea. And it was, you know, very creepy kind of like high school, twin peaksy thing. It was really cool. And you know, one of the people we pitched it to, their response was, oh yeah, we love

it. We want to do this. But can you just base, basically they said, can you just make this like a high school comedy? It's like, which was, yeah, I mean, it's a genre, like, but it's completely different than the thing that we pitched to you. So that, that experience of like the thing, because I get it, look, I, I'm not trying to demonize the networks or whatever they, the risk that they're taking to make anything

versus the risk to make a comic book is monetarily so much more extreme, you know, so much so I get their paranoia and they care and just like, but the problem is the whole thing falls apart. Whereas you and I, when we were working on this thing, it was just you and me. And then that was it. And then it, and that you're, the immediacy of that is beautiful and knowing that the thing that you're working on with a person mixed in with Ballinger, because that's the other aspect I didn't realize when you make comic books is how the artist is the, is a

writer too, but is interpreting the story and their interpretation directs and guides the story in ways we didn't expect and that I liked. I thought that was pretty fucking cool too. So yes, the immediacy is so much there. Well, the other thing about comics that is so cool is like, you know, it's not really like this when you first get started, but like after you kind of get your legs underneath you and you start, you know, being able to navigate the waters of getting things out there and everything, what, what's so cool about comics is that you know it's coming

out, you know, like, you know that like when you and I were talking, there was never any question of like, man, this is so cool. God, I hope this happens. It was, you know, it's happening. Let's do it. And I like, I, I hear these stories of like writers who kind of almost exclusively work in like TV and film and they have these stories about they, they write these scripts and then they sell them to studios and the studio doesn't make it.

And I was like, man, that would kill me. Yeah, break my heart. I can't even imagine like, I can't even imagine summoning the courage to pour my heart into a script, even with the chance that it just might not ever come out. It's like, I don't, it's so hard. Have you ever had a dog that had puppies? Yeah. And, and you had to give the puppies away.

Yeah. And the look on the dog's face as their puppies, I don't get to keep these. It's like they get brokenhearted, man. And you, I mean, there's no way, I mean, unless you're going to like have a fucking pack of dogs, unless you're a, you know, like a dog sledder. Then you, you can't keep the dogs, but you know, you witness this, you, you witness the dog playing with the puppies, teaching the puppies, the puppies loving the dog. And then one by one by one, the puppies go away.

And then the dog ends up trembling on the bed and abject depression. This is what happens to the TV writer is that their puppies, one after another, after another, get taken away by a network and just euthanized. Just fucking euthanized. And that's why a lot, they, that's why these are generally very either insane people or mystical people. They're either insane because they're so attached to the wanting to see their work flower, the opportunity to give their friends acting jobs, the, the financial

compensate, all the things that come from it, or they get to this place of like, no, you know, I just like making stuff and I want to make stuff for TV. And eventually it'll happen. Very rarely do you run into those people, but there are some of them out there. I think it's psychologically the one of the most also on the other thing that goes into making stuff for TV is the litigation. Like you have to get a fucking attorney. The attorney will negotiate with the network and on your behalf, the network will

try to like pay you as little as they have to, because they're a business. The attorney will, you inevitably will come to a point where the attorney will be like, yeah, you got to walk away from this one, man. You got to walk away from this one. I mean, like, can you imagine if you and I to make this thing, I had to get an attorney involved to be fucked up? Well, I mean, I definitely do have attorneys involved in, in, in like, you know, longer, like bigger stories and stuff like that.

For sure. You know, I think, I mean, for something like what we were doing, I mean, I, I, I have a relationship with the magazine and with grants and people over there. But it's, it's very fucking cool and very unique. I mean, when Grant Morrison is your boss, like he's just down for cool shit. You know, I mean, he's just going to be down for it. And they're, and their contract is super boilerplate and super easy, you know. But yeah, man, I can't, because like the thing is, is like to write an

effective pitch or to write an effective script. I feel like you really do have to fall in love. Like you really do have to put pieces of your heart into it and put some truth into it. The only way you can really access that kind of truth is by, you know, attaching some of yourself to it, which is to me, a process of falling in love. And I don't know how me personally, and by the way, this isn't me talking shit about people who write films and they possess a certain amount of courage that I just don't have.

They present, they possess this, this kind of gene of like, keep going-ness that I don't, I don't feel like I have it of like you fall in love with something and you, and you move and you move and you move and then it just dies. How do you fall in love again? How do you, how do you get back up and do it again? I don't know. They just do, they, they do it and they love it. So yeah, it doesn't sound like you're knocking them at all. It's just what they're doing is a whole, I, I agree with you.

I think that the, the, the, the, any time between the inception of an idea and the idea coming into the world, like the gestation process, whatever, whatever that time, that time should solely be there for the refinement of the thing that you're working on. Right. Yeah. It shouldn't be there because some counsel of people you'll never see is like mulling over whether or not the thing you worked on for a year is worth continuing.

Like it's, that's that extra time and that's something a lot of people go through, man, an extra four months, not even knowing what's happening. We're just waiting for a phone call and the phone call will come in and they're like, listen, they love you and you know, you're doomed. Cause right away when they say they love you, but so yeah, it's, it's, it's sticky. I gotta ask you though, when, so, cause I'm, you know, there are dream jobs and I think some of those dream jobs right now, professional gamer,

world renowned DJ, you know, these are like glory jobs, but to a comic book writer, man, that's like, how did you, how did you break into that business? Man, I had the weirdest route to it. I, I, like anytime anybody asks me like for advice on how to break in and stuff, I have a tough time answering it. There's certain things you can do, but everyone's path is different. Mine was, um, so to go back like completely, um, I was born in Texas. Uh, I grew up in Garland, which is famous for only two things.

Uh, it's the inspiration for Arlen and King of the Hill. Wow. Um, which, I mean, it's, I, I, I, and it's just like that. Yeah. Uh, I grew up there. Um, and, oh, also David Koresh went to my high school. Wow. Yeah.

It's a lot though, because if you look at the Wikipedia page for my high school, it lists David Koresh as a notable alumni, which seems weird to be proud of. Also, he dropped out. So you can't be an alumni. And also I'm not on there, which is ridiculous. Well, you got to get your fucking cold compound burnt down by the government. Dude, man, we could talk about the Waco compound thing all day. But, uh, yeah, so I grew up reading comics.

My dad actually taught me how to read using comics. Um, like my brother, who's older than me, is super into like baseball cards as a kid. And the baseball card shop at my, at the mall also sold comics. And I wanted them. And my dad basically told me like, well, if you'll learn how to read those, I'll buy them for you. And so I was taught how to read on like Green Lanter and Spider-Man and stuff. So like in a bizarre way, I always like to say that I spoke comic book before I ever

like spoke like English. Well, yeah, because it's fucking crazy. You actually have your own superhero story. Yeah, kind of. I mean, I mean, I think everyone, well, I mean, a lot of people have this same origin story. It's only, it's only a cool story because it ended up working out. And then, you know, I was always deep into comics.

Like I was that, I was that kid in high school who you, you could quiz about anything. He just knew everything about Marvel comics, DC comics. I would skip school and go to the comic book store and all that shit. And comic book conventions. You would go to those, you would go to the comic book conventions. Like, did they still have my guess? But I went to. You would, they're not just comic comic.

We were the old days. Like we would go to like with the, this is in North Carolina and we would go to these like, I don't know, like gun shows for comic books, where it's just crates filled with comics and musty old comics that smell like cigarette smoke and like sour sweat. Yeah, go ahead. Sorry. No, those still exist, man.

Like, like your San Diego comic cons are like outliers. Like there's a, there's like, yeah, I want to say like, maybe, well, there's nothing as big as San Diego comic con in the United States, but there's like New York comic con, there's Chicago, there's everything. But, but then like local cons, a lot of them are still like that. Where it's just like, there's no famous people or anything like that. It's just cats selling like comic books and like big cardboard boxes and stuff, you know, well, back in the day, there was never even that.

I don't think anybody was thinking, oh yeah, famous people are going to come to these one day. No one, you were an outcast if you were into that stuff. It wasn't even, there was just no sense of celebrity or like fashion to reading the X-Men. It was an eye roller for a lot of people. Well, that's something that's really cool that like kids who were born today or even kids that were like, maybe like people who are in their teens right now who

are reading comics, like people of my age and your age are like, we're like the last generation of kids who read comics and we're like made fun of for it. Right. Like that's not a thing that exists anymore. You know, like if you read comics, you're, you're a, you're a part of a thing. Yes. Like you're a part of a, like, because it used to be totally underground and it totally used to be like only nerds and losers read comics.

Right. Remember actively being made fun of and beaten up for reading comics. Sure. But that's just not a world that we live in anymore, which is cool. So yeah, eventually, long story short, I ended up moving to Austin. I followed a girl here who I ended up marrying. Nice. Yeah, that worked out too.

And then I ended up running a bunch of comic book stores here in Austin, which that alone, honestly, was a dream come true. And like, I could have done that my entire life. Like I running, like I had my own store and then I helped run. So you just leased a building and then put in a bunch of orders for comics and just did the thing. No, these were, these were shops that were, they had already existed. And then a guy came and bought them all and then put them all under the same

umbrella and then hired me to run one and then like hired. So I didn't own it, but I was like the manager of my own store, independent. It was called First Federal Comics. It's like the name of a bank. Weird. Yeah. And so I was running that one. And, uh, and again, like I ran, I did that for like two years or so.

And yeah, I could have done that my entire life. I loved it. I loved it so much. I loved the atmosphere of like just talking about comics all day, every day. And, you know, being able to help people and like put comics in their hands. And, um, you know, being a retailer is really informed a lot of like what I do now, because I try and make comics worth people's money. And I always try and like keep the customer and the retailers in mind.

Anyway, um, yeah. Um, so then they all, I ran them into the ground. Um, they, they all shut down and then, um, I wasn't particularly good at it. Um, were you, were you running? Writing during this time? Were you? No, no, dude, I, that's the thing. I never grew up writing.

Like I, I was always a storyteller. Like I was, I was always that kid who was like telling stories in class. And I was like the class clown and shit like that. And there's a big theater kid and actor and stuff like that. But like never, I never tried my hand at writing. Um, and then when those, when those stores shut down, um, I was kind of in this weird place where like, I didn't have a degree. I didn't have what you would call like skills for like, you know, like a regular job.

Like I knew that, I knew that I didn't have that thing in me that would allow me to go and like just have like a cubicle. I knew that I couldn't do it. And again, that's not me knocking people who can. It's just, I knew that I couldn't do it. Like I would just die. Yep. Right.

Um, yeah, it's much like, it's much like the pancreatitis, pancreatitis decision, isn't it? Like there's a piece of you that's like, well, I guess I'll just kill myself then because there's no fucking way I can do that. I cannot do that. I will, that, that's a, uh, yeah, there, that's a differentiating factor because some people, they can get into the flow of it. They can get into it, you know, and some people are like, no, I'll just end up

blowing my brains out. I'd rather just be a hero. I'll just get into heroin. You know, I'll just find, I'll start selling heroin or something. I'll rob a bank. I've thought just, just fucking anything to not put on a tie. I'll start robbing filling stations. Like, I'll, yeah, that.

Yeah, I just couldn't do it, man. I just like, and I had jobs. Like I worked at like best buy and shit and just wanted to fucking kill myself every day. Um, and, but I could draw. Like I was a pretty good artist. I'm not really any more excited and keep up with it, but like I, um, so anyway, I decided that I was going to give this thing a go.

I was going to try and be in comics because I knew that it was the only thing that like my entire life, like comics was the thing that made me special. Was the thing that like made me different and the thing that I could like hang my hat on. Like I was always Donnie, the comic book guy, you know? And so I knew so much about comics, but I had never tried to make one. And I was like, man, I, I've, I've, I've read so many of these things. I could probably do something.

Right. And so I actually went back to school. I went to the Savannah college of art and design. Um, and I was going to be a pencil. Like I, my goal in life was to become like a comic artist. And then, and then I got into class, you get a student loan. Oh yeah. Yeah.

Wait, wait, wait, which I just paid off like, like a month ago. There you go, man. But by the way, I mean, even, even though you ended up being a writing story, again, there's the others. I mean, there are so many pieces in this that are, that are the classic thing. You showed the universe. You meant business. You went into fucking debt.

Oh, massive debt. Massive debt. Do you do? Can you say how much? I was like 50 grand. Jesus. Jesus. Yeah.

And, and like in art school, dude, like, I mean, I don't even know if I have that same courage now, but at the time, like it was one of those things where like, I've been, I've been that dude, like I was always that dude who just didn't believe in backup plans. Yeah. It was just like, I'm going to do this until I can't do it because I wanted to be in a band. I wanted to be in a punk rock band.

I wanted to be a lead singer. I wanted to be an actor, all this shit. And like I pursued them with like, with an insane passion, like just would like block out everything else in my life and would just dedicate myself to something. And then eventually I would run up against so many hurdles that I, it wasn't the thing, you know, it was probably also because I wasn't very good at those things. But then comics came along and I, yeah, man, I just never had, I never had

any kind of backup plan. It was either I'm going to do this or fuck. I don't know. I mean, I don't know what my backup plan was. No safety parachute, plunging into the vortex with no safety parachute, just diving in. Jumping, you, you jump in, you build your wings on the way down. Well, I've always been my, my kind of thing, you know,

actually Henry Rawlins was on the Joe Rogan podcast, like two days ago or something. And he, he, he said this thing that I really liked where he said that while all of his friends were going into like bank jobs and like working at Walmart and stuff, he decided to sail the sea of consequence. And I was like, yes, fuck yeah, sail the sea of that sounds so Henry Rawlins. I know. Yeah.

Well, the thing is, is that I think he was actually quoting David Lee Roth, which is also amazing. Um, so yeah, I went to art school and then I quickly divorced myself from the notion of drawing comics because I ended up being in classes with some of the best comic artists that are working today. Like, um, this guy named Trad Moore, who's just an incredible, I mean, just a phenom. Uh, I was in classes with that guy and I saw his work and I was like, well, maybe

I need to change this plan because I'll, I'll just never be that good. Like, like, like, like I could work for 30 years and I won't be as good as Trad was on his first day. Like there's something to be said for schooling and learning, but there's just, you know, you see these people that they, they just have a thing. Like they just have a thing that is in their soul, that is unteachable and unreachable, you know, I mean, I don't, you know what, I, I, I think it's probably true, but then a part of me thinks, I don't, I mean, okay, I, I'd

like to believe that had you kept at it. Yeah, you, you would have hit some peak that I guarantee you would have with your work ethic, you would have gotten to a place, but you were sort of being, you, you were, you, a lot of times people think that their failure is failure when it's just the experience of being drawn closer to what they're really meant to be doing. Yeah. Yeah.

And so I was also in classes with Jeff Shaw, who draws, um, he drew, he's, we've worked together a bunch. He draws, um, God country. So like, how is in classes with that dude? Um, and I mean, he was phenomenal back then. This was like 2009. Who's the, is he the colorist as well on God? No, no, the colorist is a guy named Jason wordy, who is phenomenal.

Yeah, man. I mean, the, the colors or the whole, I mean, it's so not to get off track here, but my God, man, it is so juicy and beautiful. And like, it's just, I just love how all these different artists are, are reflecting the story through their own talent. Totally. Oh, yeah. It's really cool.

And calling Jason a colorist, I feel, I mean, he's a painter. Yes. I call him, he's a painter. That's a painter for sure. It doesn't matter if he's doing on the computer. I mean, he's painting and like you can tell, like, yeah, God country is just really rare this thing that we all got really lucky because everyone on that book got it, like immediately, like everyone knew what we were trying to do.

And everyone just dialed in and was just like, fuck, yeah, we're all going to tell this story, like we're all going to do it, you know. So anyway, yeah, I was in classes with Jeff and Trad and a bunch of other and you know what, there you go. It's weird that you're, you know, you, that's where you didn't even know that you'd already started working on God country. You didn't even, you know, it was happening. Even then you were making these connections with people that you would be

working with in the future. You had no idea. Yeah. I know when you look back on it, like you can see all these connections, you know, I feel like everyone's story is like that, like you in comedy and like everyone else, when you look back, like, yeah, there's these like really clear little through lines, but it obviously doesn't look like that because you're, because the lines aren't there because you're charting them.

Right. Like you, you, you cut a path down the jungle when you look back, they're like, oh yeah, there's a path there, but it wasn't there until you chopped it down, you know, so yeah. And so I kind of quickly switched over to writing because I took, I took a few writing classes and found that I really enjoyed it and that, you know, professors and people kind of told me that I had a bit of a knack for it. And then I just, I just dived into it.

And then I was definitely on, on course to graduate from SCAD. I went like two years nonstop. I didn't take summers off or anything like that. Again, I just, I put my head down and I just, I, I barrel through things. Yes. And I do that, and I do that mainly because I'm lazy and because I know that if I take time off, then it'll just disappear. And so I work really hard because I'm lazy.

Cool. Yeah, I know what you mean. And so I took a summer off and in that summer, I ended up getting an internship at Marvel. Um, and so I moved to Queens. I lived in Queens and I worked at the Marvel offices. What'd you do? What was your function there?

I was an editorial intern. So I did a lot of different jobs. Um, you know, there's like the standard joke things of like getting people lunch and making copies and stuff like that. But what's really cool though is that. Is this an unpaid internship? Oh yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And I was doing like, I mean, I was pulling like 60 hour weeks and shit. Like I was, I made a point to be the first person there and the last person to leave. Like I remember editors who were going home, like coming over to me and be like, Hey, go home. Like you have to go home. And I, I felt like, uh, what's that film?

I was like, I got nowhere else to go. Like I have nowhere I would rather be than be right here. What was your housing situation in Queens? I lived with, uh, a brother and sister, a two brothers and a sister, um, really cool, um, Filipino family who were super fucking cool. They didn't know anything about comics or anything. They were all artists and writers and, um, uh, like, um, um, uh, like performance artists.

Like, so I was living in this like really cool house. How did you find them? Craigslist, man. I, my, my uncle lives or used to live. He lived in like the upper East side or something. I'm bad with geography when it comes to that town, but he's, he, he lived there for like 30 years. And so when I first got there, I just crashed on his couch and told him,

like, just give me a week, man. Just let me crash in your couch for a week and I'll figure it out. You know, and so yeah, I just got on Craigslist and interviewed, like went and like met with these people and stuff. And I, I had luckily was, I had managed to save up enough money. Uh, and by save up, I mean, I just stole it from my loan that I got for college. Yes. Um, so I just like took this loan and took it to, to Manhattan with me.

And so I was able to get in in front of them and just say, like, Hey, I'll pay all the rent right now. Well, how much was the rent? Uh, it's like 500 bucks. Actually, it wasn't bad at all. Um, because I was, but I had like a little room that was bad when you're working 60 hours a week for no money. Yeah.

Well, there's that. Yeah. Well, I, I eventually, after my money ran out that I saved, I ended up doing a night job, uh, you know, those little pop-up costume stores. Yes. Halloween stores. Yeah. Like the spirit Halloween stores.

Yes. I would, I would work one of those at night and then come home and like sleep for a few hours and then go to Marvel. Holy shit. That's a psychedelic time in your life, man. No shit, dude, dude, I mean, I have so many stories from that time. Um, but the cool thing was is that like working for Marvel was so cool. I mean, it really was.

It was stressful because I was just trying to make, like there's this weird dance you have to do when you're an intern of like being invisible, but also making an impression. Like you don't want to be in anyone's way, but you want to be that dude that they can count on. Yes. So I made this little rule for myself of always saying yes, meaning if they came to me and they were like, Hey, do you know how to do Excel spreadsheets?

I would say, of course. And then I would run off into the bathroom and Google it and like how to do it. So everything that they ever asked me to do, I said, yes. Um, and then we'd just go and figure it out. Um, and so what was cool is that after a while, they began to, I guess, kind of see that I could write a little bit that I at least knew how to put words in order, you know, um, and so they had me writing, um, all the recaps. So like when you read a Marvel comic, normally the first page of it is a

recap of what happened in the first issue. So it's like previously on X-Men and it's like all this shit. I must have written hundreds of those things. Like it's funny. I can still, I can still go into account bookstores and like, it's weird because there's only a handful of books that I, that have my name on them, but I've written like hundreds of count books or am I writing at least is in. Oh my God.

That's crazy. I could tell, listen, cause I was when I was preparing to chat with you, I was looking at your bio and thinking like, man, that's such a well written. Like it's reads like a comic book. Like you're, you know, my bio on Twitter. Yeah. It was your bio find it. Um, yeah, I'm not sure where, where I found it.

Hold on. Let me see one second here. Uh, let me read this. Um, let me find it. I don't know what, what site it popped up on, but it was like a really great, maybe some, no, you definitely wrote it. Hold on a second. Let me find it here.

Not that it matters. Um, shit. Well, you're too famous for me to dig this up now because I'm not looking up too much shit pops up. But anyway, so that's awesome. So you start getting this tiny little morsel thrown your way. Marvel is now letting you write for them. That's exciting.

It was cool because it was like a, it was a daily training. And like at the time I didn't, I didn't know it. That's what it was. But I was in a job where I was asked to write every day. Yes. I was writing every fucking day and it was always a new thing. And it was always, I had to kind of match styles to the different books. And like, you know, some of the recaps were written in, in like, in unique styles.

I had to match them. How much time do you get per recap to write it? Like how much time are they giving you to work on this? It depends. Like there were, there were some that I just like had to do every week that were just like on a schedule, you know, but, but as, cause I would only work for, I was hired to work for this one office. And it was the like the Incredible Hulk and the ultimate comic line, which the

ultimate comic line was kind of a rebooted Marvel comic line that had Spiderman and Captain America, like all the biggest ones. So I, I got to, I got to write for like all of these big ones. But after a while, I started getting kind of farmed out to other offices when they found out that I was kind of a dude they could rely on to get things done. So after a while, it was just, um, I mean, people would send things to me that needed to be done in like, you know, 10, 15, like by the end of the day, like, I would just have to really quick, like read this comic and just bang it out.

And it had to be perfect as it was going to print right now. You know, and so that also was a thing that was preparing me for publishing for like the deadlines of getting things out the door, you know. Um, so that was rad. It was really, really, really cool. Um, and then I was asked to, uh, stay, uh, for another term because you do like, um, there, the interns, uh, are there for as long as like a semester because it counts for school credit.

Um, that's actually a funny story because mine did not count for school credit because I was actually not enrolled. Right. Um, but their rules at Marvel is that you have to be enrolled. So I hope no one at Marvel was hearing this, but I, I just asked one of my professors at college to just write them an email saying that I was still enrolled. That is so bad. That's so scrappy.

You're like one of those people who lied themselves into the fucking military. Yeah. I wanted to do it, man. It was a dream come true. You know, I, I, because at the time I also had aspirations of becoming a Marvel editor, like I thought that was so cool. You know, I thought that'd be so cool to like work on all these comics every day. You know?

Yeah. Um, and then, you know, I, I, I, I came to a point where I had this decision in front of me and that decision was basically, do I want to work at Marvel again for like no money for an internship that like maybe might turn into a job or do I want to go home and get married and pursue my own thing? Yes. You know, um, and so I did that. Um, there's a lot of factors that went into it.

I'd like to be able to tell you that it was me being brave and saying like, no, I shall forge my own path. But really it was, I was out of money and I didn't think I was going to get hired. That's so, so I left, but I left with really good contacts. Like I still know everyone who works over there. Um, they're all really awesome people. I still keep in touch with all of them. Um, and I've, I've, I've done a few little Marvel things here and there.

Um, that were really fun. But yeah, so anyway, I went home. You left the Filipino artists. They were really cool. Left Queens went back to Texas to get married. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

Um, but while I was there, uh, I met a fellow intern who we became really fast friends while you were in Texas when you got back to Texas. No, no, no. While I was at Marvel, um, friends with an intern, um, and me and him ended up kind of just like on our lunch breaks and walking around and hanging out at night. Like we were each other's only friends because that's the other thing is like, you don't know anybody out there, you know? And so you kind of just like latch on to people.

It's like being in the army. Like cause it's, it's, it's, it's a tough gig. And it's one that other people maybe don't really get, you know, unless you're doing it yourself. Um, and so me and him, like in our off time, started kind of jamming on like comic book ideas. Um, and we came up with this one idea for this like drunken time traveler dude named Hunter Quaid, who was like a private eye in the forties, but ended

up getting wrapped up and it was, it was silly. Uh, it was really silly, but it, it, it really entertained us. Um, and that was really fun. And, um, and so after we both left our internships, we just kept in contact and we ended up talking like every day and we were just like, fuck it. Man, let's just do this. Like, let's just make this comic. And so we made what's known as an ash can, which is just like a self-produced

like, you know, hand stapled, um, black and white comic. What a complimentary name for something. An ash can. Yeah, ash can. Yeah. Um, and ash cans have like a really cool long background of like being like these really cool indie zines and that's kind of where all that stuff kind of like underground comic started off as ash cans.

So me and my buddy ended up going to cons. We started going to like the Chicago con and the New York con and all this stuff. And we were take our ash cans to these cons and we would pitch them like on the floor of the con, like we would find out who the editors were who work for these companies and we would find them at their booth and I got the dark horse booth or the image booth or whatever. And we just walk up to them and kind of give them a spiel and put the book in their hands and that's one of the big things.

How do you start a conversation like that? That's ballsy, man. I don't, I don't know how you fucking do that. You just walk up to someone like, Hey, may I have a few moments of your time, sir? Yeah. Well, here's the thing. I was, I was really annoying back in those days. I was tenacious and I, and I, but I, you know, I was

probably too annoying. I was probably too pushy. My friend, Elliot, though, who's my partner at the time and doing those things, he, he was and is today a standup comic. So he was always really fucking good, like breaking the ice, you know, getting there and being charming and stuff. And so I would kind of rely on him and like, this is a true story. And I can't believe this actually worked because this is how we got that book

published. This is no bullshit. So Elliot wanted to pitch this to Dark Horse. And I was, for whatever reason, I was tired and I was grumpy. And we'd been pitching all day. I said, dude, Dark Horse is never going to publish this book. Like this is a weird, like Ash can about the time traveler and blah, blah. That's just not what they do. And I don't think I don't think they'll dig it.

And he said, well, I'm going to try it. I'm going to go and do it. And I was like, all right, man. And so I, and, and he was asking me, do you know anybody at Dark Horse? Like over in that booth over there. And I looked over at the booth and there was a guy standing in the booth with a microphone in his hand. And I was like, well, that guy has a microphone.

He probably works there. And so Elliot walked over to this dude, no bullshit, and goes, um, hi, yes. I'm supposed to be famous. Could you help me with that? Whoa. It was his opening line. Whoa. No, no, no, I'm sorry.

His opening line was, hey, I'm sorry. I'm a little lost. I'm supposed to be famous. Can you help me with that? I'm lost. I'm lost in this existence. Yeah. And so the dude, uh, uh, and then like I ran over when I saw it going

well, because I'm a coward. Um, and we ended up putting the book in his hands and, uh, and it ended up working. It's crazy. Like, uh, that guy ended up being like the head of like, uh, marketing for dark or holy shit. And he ended up giving that book to the president of Dark Horse. And said, like, these guys are crazy. And like they, they maybe have the worst, best pitch I'd ever seen in my life.

You got to read this thing. And then the president of Dark Horse called Elliott and I and said, he wanted to do it. Oh God. That was crazy. Who did he, did he call it? He called Elliott and then Elliott delivered the news to you or I'm just trying to picture that moment. They emailed both of us and said, do you want to get on the phone like later

this week and like, again, looking back on it, that phone call could have only ever meant one thing, but Elliott and I were like, dude, do you think we're in trouble? Like, well, why is he talking to us? Like, why is he going to call us? Never come to our fucking booth again, psychopath. Yeah, he got on the phone. His name is Mike. He's, he's really cool.

We have a great, uh, report of this day. Uh, and yeah, he wanted to publish it and they published it in Dark Horse Presents, which is like one of the oldest and most prestigious, uh, anthologies. Oh, man. Dark Horse. And so here's where the story gets crazy. This is where things started to kind of get weird and take off for me. Are you familiar with the band Toties?

You know, I've heard of them. I've heard, I've definitely heard of them, but I don't think I'm not familiar with their music. Yeah. So they're a big Texas band and they were like huge in the 90s. And I mean, they're still huge. Like they sell out everywhere out here in Texas and stuff. But you would definitely know their, like if I were to play you like two of their songs, you'd be like, oh, hell yeah, those guys.

The big album was Possum Kingdom. They have that song. It's like, do you want to die? It's really good. So anyway, this is a bizarre confluence of events. Again, my childhood, like best friend ended up being their tour manager. And he was in New York while I was interning there and invited me to their show that they were playing.

And it was on my birthday and I went by myself because I didn't have any friends yet. And after the show was over, Wes took me backstage and was just like, here, just hang out with the band. I got to go and do some shit. And I was like, dude, I don't know this band. Like what are you, are you going to put me back here at this band? Like I'm so nervous.

And so he was just like, well, hold on. And he went and got their drummer, Rez. And Rez is a huge comic book fan, just nuts about comics. And so Wes was just like, hey, Rez, this is Donnie. Donnie works at Marvel. Y'all talk. And so me and Rez just hit it off like crazy. And as we were kind of parting ways, I said, hey man,

well, look, I want to make comics. And if you ever have any ideas for any comics or anything, like I would love to work with you guys because I'm a huge fan of your band. And then, yeah, I went back to Austin and they were in town in Austin. And I went and hung out with them again. And Rez told me that night.

He was like, hey, man, if you're still serious about that offer, I think I might have like a little baby germ of an idea. And he emailed me this idea. And it was his email was like maybe two sentences long. And I just loved it. I loved it. His idea was basically, you know, what if a dude got superpowers from drinking and doing doing drugs?

And so I kind of latched on to that idea and I ended up just staying up all night that night, breaking the idea and like trying to end this thing. Was it called the Hunter S. Thompson story? We ended up calling it Buzzkill. And it ended up being, so like with that premise, you could go really funny or really goofy. But what we ended up kind of latching onto

and really liked was this idea that he was actually trying to get clean. And he was like in AA. But if and if he was clean, he wouldn't have powers anymore. But just because he wanted to get clean, doesn't mean that his like villains and stuff were just going to let him walk away. Right. So it became this big story about addiction and power.

You know, and it really wasn't about superheroes at all. It was about addiction. Yes. And what's crazy about it is that like, like we ended up pitching it. We hired Jeff Shaw to draw it because I had went to school with him and I loved his work. And we pitched it to Dark Horse and they picked it up and it came out.

And that was like the first time I ever put out a comic book that really people paid attention to. Like that, like that was a big moment. Was this when you were in your wine period? Yeah. Yeah. And that's the crazy thing about that book is that like I remember doing interviews for that book

and people asked me like, so are you in recovery or like, are you an addict? And I would tell them like, no, man, no, no, no, no. It's just a book about it's just, it's just an idea. Wow. And at the time I believe that like, but looking back on it, it's just like, dude, you were writing a book about addiction, you idiot.

You were, you were an alcoholic, of course. Like where do you think that came from? Or, you know, this is like, you know, if you get into the some of the stuff Grant Morrison talks about, the idea that his comics are a sigil or the idea that when you're creating, you know, this is actually to get back to this grimoire I'm reading.

That's one of the things that, you know, is a magical idea, which is if you write it down, if you say it, even if it's about some other character, it's, it can affect you, you know, you can, wow, that's so crazy. But yeah, so that was you, you, you were writing a, it was semi autobiographical. Oh, it totally was. And like, you know, I, I, I didn't allow myself

to reread it for a really long time after I kind of discovered where it came from, you know, and then like after I got sober and everything, I went back and I re, I re, I re-read it. And I was like, oh God, it's so obvious. I guess so obvious that you were writing about you and the things that you were going for, because there's just, there's little moments in it that like,

you could only, you could have only written. There's like emotions that you could have only done if you had gone through it, you know. That's so crazy how your subconscious will scream help me through your art. And you know, like it's like, it's, it's trapped inside of your addiction, but it'll still scream out to the world. Please, please, I'm in here, someone help.

Well, I mean, think about it. I mean, yeah, take that idea and explode it out because then think about this idea of the idea of that book throwing up a flair to the world and then having interviewers ask me if I was an addict. Like that book literally like put a bat signal in the sky to get people to come to me to ask me if I was okay. Wow.

You know, it's bizarre. And yeah, it's really, really fucking weird. And so anyway, that book came out in 2013 and I have been really fortunate enough to be working ever since. I've, I've, I've very rarely had months go by where I didn't have a book out. Man, I gotta tell you, this conversation has not only inspired me to work harder, but it makes me feel like I do not.

The fact that I just got to write a comic with you for heavy metal, that's not fair. Like that is, this is an indication of this truly being a simulation and it's malfunctioning somehow because fuck man, this isn't, I don't get you, that's thank you, I guess is what I'm trying to say because what an honor to, you know, it's another podcast and we've got to do more of these.

But I mean, just to learn the style of writing comic books to also to be able to experience the strange prism that your mind is and the way that like my ideas or any idea that I had will go into this prism of a professional writer and it shoots out the other side as something like formed and real and like exciting. It's, it's amazing. You are a really cool person.

And thanks man, right back at you. I'm so grateful for this. This is a very inspirational conversation. And man, I can't wait to dive into my life with some of these things I'm taking away from this. So thank you so much. How can people find you, sir? Yeah, I'm on Twitter.

That's probably the best place. I'm at Don Cates, which is D-O-N-C-A-T-E-S. And yeah, I'm on there all the time. It's probably the best way to reach me. And then we can be found in the pages of Heavy Metal Magazine and more, more simulationists to come, I think. I hope so. Man, I'd love to.

And also you can get the digital, you can get the digital God country right now, right? Like if people can't find it in stores, they can just get that version. Yeah, you can get it on Comixology for sure. And then the second printing will come out on the 15th of next month, along with issue two. Cool.

I'm just going to get the digital one, man. I don't have patience for that shit. I can't wait. I'll have to send it over to you. I'll just send it to you. Oh, beautiful. Oh yeah, that's right. Yeah, you created it.

Hey, cool, man. Thank you so much. And I can't wait to keep working on simulations with you. Hell yeah, dude. Absolutely. Thanks for having me on. Thanks. That was Donnie Cates.

All the links you need to find that sweet man will be in the comments section of this episode at dunkintrustle.com. Much thanks to Casper.com for sponsoring this episode. Don't forget to go to Casper.com, forward slash family hour and use offer code family hour to get $50 towards your first purchase of a brand new oil free glory mattress.

And if you like the podcast, why not subscribe to us on iTunes? Give us a nice rating. I'll see you guys very soon. Hare Krishna. It's Macy's friends and family. Get an extra 30% off great gifts for her just in time for Mother's Day

when you use your coupon or Macy's card. And take 15% off beauty essentials or shop specials she'll love while supplies last. Plus star rewards members earn on every purchase except gift card services and fees at Macy's. Sign up today at Macy's.com slash star rewards. Savings off regular sale and clearance prices, exclusions apply.

It's Macy's friends and family. Get an extra 30% off great gifts for her just in time for Mother's Day when you use your coupon or Macy's card. And take 15% off beauty essentials or shop specials she'll love while supplies last. Plus star rewards members earn on every purchase except gift card services and fees at Macy's.

Sign up today at Macy's.com slash star rewards. Savings off regular sale and clearance prices, exclusions apply.