Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Hamilton Souther

Episode Date: November 17, 2016

We celebrate Terrence Mckenna's birthday with a mind blazingly psychedelic episode with Maestro Hamilton Souther. (http://www.hamiltonsouther.com) Hamilton Souther completed a degree in Anthropology from the University of Colorado in 2000. In 2001, he left his California home and traveled to Peru. Later that year, he studied Ayahuasca shamanism under various Peruvian shamans on the Aucayacu River in the Amazon rain forest, approximately 24 hours away from Iquitos, Peru by boat. Then, in 2002, Souther began apprenticing with Don Alberto Torres Davila and Don Julio Llerena Pinedo, two medicine men in the area. Souther constructed a camp nearby, where he would live during his studies. It soon became clear to him that many Westerners would benefit from similar spiritual work, so he established Blue Morpho, named after the bright blue Amazonian butterfly of the same name. With its inception, Souther began guiding guests on the 24-hour trip by boat from Iquitos deep into the jungle. As more guests arrived, he added greater infrastructure to accommodate their needs.

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Hi friends, it's me Duncan and you're listening to the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast. I'm not sure what part of the time space continuum you happen to be floating down on the meaty inner tube that you call your body, but from this part of the river I just want to say hello to you, trapped in time like a fly stuck in the swirling vortex of a toilet, but not being sucked down into the city sewers being sucked in the direction of the thing that someone I'm very fond of termed the strange attractor at the end of time. Today, maybe you're aware, maybe you're not. If you happen to be listening to this today, November 16th, today is the birthday of one

of the greatest philosophers and psychonauts and mind blowers that ever walked across this strange extrusion of matter that we call planet earth. I'm trying to talk like Terence McKenna, who truly is the ultimate mind melter in my life. I've never encountered anybody so adept at flying into the realms of the psychedelic, at inhaling dimethyltryptamine or eating what he called heroic doses of mushrooms and allowing himself to experience that incredible subjective apocalypse that comes from a tremendous dose of psychedelics and then somehow being able to bring that experience back here into consensus reality and articulate it in a way that makes it somewhat understandable.

Terence McKenna is so good at describing the psychedelic mind state that he is his own form of psychedelic and I can remember the first time reading him feeling as though I were having some kind of flashback. He's the best. So in honor of this great man's birthday, I'm just going to play a clip that I found on YouTube, which is a talk he was giving in Maui. We are all in the grip of a transformative attractor, an attractor which over very long periods of time produced stable biosystems, old mountains and jungles full of life.

Over a very short period of time, thousands of years has produced human civilizations, art movements, dynastic families, languages, migrations and since 1945, pick the number, we have been in a kind of hyper-accelerated phase where culture has not changed that much. What has changed is technology. Technology is now evolving at such a rate, I was saying to someone today, we don't even have software that pushes our hardware to its limits. No one now knows the limits of our hardware. It's a software writer's challenge to even find the edge of what these machines can do.

But it isn't, and I want to stress this, it isn't something that we are doing. It isn't something that is being driven by a human political or social agenda. It is that we, like the dolphins, like the groundhogs, like the giant squid and the honeybee, we are embedded in the matrix of physics, of the actual underlying facts of this local structure of this universe. And what has happened is we are on a collision course with something we can't even describe or imagine. We have a vocabulary of things you can run into.

You can run into other planets, bad weather, large asteroids, mercenary or missionary extraterrestrials, so forth and so on. What we are about to run into is none of the above, something much more peculiar. Let's call it for dimensional white hole. Let's call it a mirror traveling backward at the speed of light through time. Let's call it, you know, last week's laundry list, whatever you call it. The point is it's going to blow your mind. And at this point in time, the only anticipation is in recourse to these shamanic experiences

of boundary dissolution that we are calling psychedelic and stigmatizing furiously as a kind of social heresy. It is a kind of social heresy because real heresies are always about a truck with truths that don't want to be articulated, that are literally unthinkable or unsayable. And this is the kind of situation in which we find ourselves suspended halfway between the animal and the transcendental. At the end of the 20th century, with all the contradictions of Western civilization seething in our laps, it now turns out that there is a kind of redemption that hovers in an intermediate

space between secular and religious. It isn't the return of the goddess. It isn't divine retribution. It's the laws of physics seem to be about to rescue us from ourselves. And in fact, our entire career through time has been at the whim of an imploding scent of physical laws. That's worth a dream. That is our lord and savior, Terrence McKenna at a talk he gave in Maui.

You can find that in the comments section of this episode or go on YouTube and Google search Ananda Doss and you will find that he has uploaded this entire two and a half hour lecture to YouTube. If you've missed Terrence McKenna and you're wondering where to start off, I would recommend the archaic revival, though so many of his books are incredible. And also if you don't feel like buying a book or reading a book, there are probably hundreds of hours of him giving brilliant lectures all over the world, which are now available all over the internet.

And when you listen to him or when you read him, keep in mind that this guy came way before virtual reality goggles that when he was talking about the processors inside computers, they weren't even close to as powerful as computers currently are. And yet just with his understanding of the way things seem to be moving, he was able to extrapolate the strangeness that we are all currently collectively experiencing. He's the master of talking about this stuff and I hope you will check him out. And there is no better day to release this episode than Terrence McKenna's birthday because today's guest has been to Peru, has studied under medicine men in Peru and is such a mind

blowing fellow that this morning I woke up thinking about where my third eye was in my head and wondering if I could talk to trees. All of this inspired by the conversation that you're about to hear. We're going to jump right into it, but first some very quick business. This episode of the DTFH is brought to you by Casper.com. Friends, did you know that there was a time when there was far more oxygen on planet earth? And because of this extra oxygen, massive forms of life were able to exist. Huge monstrous flies would land on top of the enormous turds blasted out of the buttholes

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Get in on this conversation that has been happening for several years. I would love to see you there. Today's guest has studied plant medicines in Peru with two South American medicine men. He is a mind blowing human. You can find him by going to HamiltonSouther.com if you can't remember that just go to the comments section of this website. The link to connect to Hamilton will be there. All right everybody please unzip your pineal pants and pull out your pineal glands to welcome

our amazing guest, the great maestro Hamilton Souther. It's me DuncanTrestle, Hamilton, welcome. Hi. Thank you for coming over. Thank you for having me. This is the very first time I've had a shaman on my podcast I think. You're a shaman. Back in the day I was given the title of shaman, yeah.

But you don't consider yourself a shaman? I'm not sure what a shaman is anymore. The modern world has twisted my mind in terms of archetypes and understandings who and what something is. Well it's a weird title, isn't it? I mean it's one of the most, it seems like there's really, with other titles, priest, cleric, there's generally like a well-known organized religion behind so many of these mystical titles.

But when it comes to shaman, shamanism, we don't know. It's hard to understand how one becomes that person. How does that happen? How do you get to be a shaman? I think it's ultimately an ancestral question. It's a question of cultures and mythology and anthropology and you ultimately have a calling the calling comes forth. It's traditionally expressed that way as a calling and then if you're lucky enough to

be in a culture or society that has shamans who can train you if you've had a calling then you can hopefully find someone who will train you. Now this calling I've heard about, it's painful. It can be. It can be, yeah. Nightmarish. It can be. You start feeling like you're going crazy.

It can be. Which is interesting because that's some of the symptoms of schizophrenia, some of the symptoms of losing your mind or the symptoms of being called to become a shaman. In modern terms, I would definitely say so. In anthropological terms, typically the extraordinary is what's necessary and then that gets labeled in many different ways. But early on in my training, I had a really wonderful opportunity to talk to a psychiatrist and a psychologist and I asked them both how they would describe the nature of the experiences

I was having. And they said that while in their understanding that there's similarities, the difference is around functioning and around high functioning. And the idea of a shaman is that somehow the shaman goes through a training to align all of these pieces that allow the extraordinary to not be broken but also to perform something actually extraordinary for their tribe or for their community. In the last podcast I did with Danieli Bollelli, he quoted, oh I don't remember who, but the quote is, the mystic and the madman are in the same waters, but one drowns and one swims.

So this training that you're talking about seems to be a way of processing some kind of extra data that some people seem to be taking in as opposed to other people like the filter of the shaman, of the mystic. The thing is dealing with emails is problematic for a lot of us. It's very stressful. Phone calls to our parents, to our friends, returning phone calls, so complex. If you add to that some kind of legion of extra dimensional entities, gods, various embodiments of the divine intelligence, then your life becomes so extremely complicated at that point

or seems like it would that the idea of being able to balance a connection to whatever that is, some kind of as of yet unquantified biome or some internal part of the human psyche seems like it would become cumbersome. It would make it very difficult to function in the modern world. Yeah, I think functioning in the modern world's hard period and with extra ordinary experiences or extra sensory perception, sure, it can make it difficult. But I go back to the idea of really what the shaman is doing and the shaman is part of a tribal society and tribal societies live very close to the land.

They're not dealing with email typically. They're dealing with daily life experiences without this great abstraction of modern society. And so it's a much more primitive society, a much more simpler society, and they don't deal with the same kind of difficulties and complexities that you would see a modern person live with. But you do. I was going through your website and yeah, but you know what you represent, of course, is like we're seeing this incredible renaissance that seems to be somehow directly associated

with ayahuasca. And everyone's aware of it. Everyone knows someone who's taken ayahuasca by now. And everyone has heard from people who've taken ayahuasca. And what they say is you need to drink ayahuasca over and over again. Take ayahuasca. It's healing. You know, people are saying this is the healing energy of nature.

And so do they really have the credibility to say that? Well, I mean, I think if you've had a moving experience, then yeah, I think that gives you credibility. Like if you're someone who has had a life-transchanging experience, then that's going to put you into a kind of missionary mindset, whether it's going to, maybe you won't be considering perhaps what you are considering when you think about the advice for someone to take ayahuasca. You're not thinking of the countless sessions you've been involved with, the varying psychological spiritual problems that can emerge from this intense experience.

Someone who's had their life transformed just wants to spread that to other people. But what's curious about ayahuasca to me is that sometimes it seems like whatever the embodiment of that thing is, it also wants to tell people about it. It's almost as though there's a kind of fervent, in a hurry kind of thing that comes from people when they've had the experience. They feel like this is an imperative for a lot of people. Maybe they have different motives for that, but I've never found it to be off-putting. It just kind of makes sense to me.

Do you think it's irresponsible for people who've had these monumental experiences to tell other people to enjoy them or to experiment with ayahuasca? No, I don't think in any way there's any sort of conflict. The question to me always came around experiential understanding. In the shamanic arts, like the mystic arts, extreme amount of experience is typically considered necessary to have a wide enough understanding of all of the ceremonial experiences, all of the sort of psychedelia that can be involved in it as well, the visionary experiences, the purgative experiences, the cathartic experiences, the extraordinary or the sort of beyond body

even though it's very difficult to describe what that means experiences. In my own life, I just came to think that the people that spoke with the most clarity about it had thousands of experiences, thousands literally in the Amazon. The people that had the greatest respect had 3,000, 4,000 experiences of ayahuasca under their belt and then other people listened to them. It was very different because they expressed a depth of knowledge and a wisdom about the experience that wasn't a missionizing expression. It wasn't go try this.

It was if you're ill in these very specific ways and in these very specific reasons and in these very specific forms and literally ill, like of an illness, diseased or sick, then this would be the appropriate medicinal plant to use under those circumstances. In my training, I found it really interesting that I got presented kind of really like a field study in plant medicine the way akin to when my father described going through western medical school and residency akin like my father went through western medical school and residency and became a surgeon and I found myself in the Amazon in my early 20s hanging out with these other guys that didn't have western medicine but they had

medicine, they had real medicine the same way you would describe medicine and western medicine they had medicine in forms of plants and all of these different uses of the plants including this psychomagical use that western medicine had discarded. But the tribal medicine is ancestral to western medicine and so the psychomagical was part of all medicine until western medicine decided that that was not a necessary part to continue to pursue or explore. So in my case, I was in the Amazon in my early 20s with these elders and masters learning from them where they were describing a nature of ascension and experience over 40 years.

Now in the western world, in the neo-shamanic sort of revolution that's taking place, it's five ceremonies, ten ceremonies, a hundred ceremonies, a hundred and fifty ceremonies of experience is a lot for somebody and the masters who taught me were in their 40s and 80s when I was learning with them and they were teaching and at that time they had each a mass somewhere between 3,000 and 6,000 ceremonies. Can you describe what a typical day for 20, 23, 24 year old you was like in the jungle with a shaman? Yeah and sure.

From when you woke up, from the way, so what time did you wake up and just take me through a day of training? Yeah. Okay, so a day of training. Thank you for practicing training because there's a lot of days in the Amazon you know. But a day of training would look like we had finished a night of ceremony the night before and so we'd probably finished the ceremony at three or four a.m. and then the day would start somewhere between six and six thirty a.m. so you'd get about two hours

of sleep and you would be presented a very large Mapacho jungle cigar as a before breakfast snack that you would start with as a purification and then you'd go down to the river and bathe and then come back and have breakfast and then there'd be hard labor typically. The jungle is an environment where you have to work all day long to survive between mending things, agriculture, fishing and hunting to be able to eat and survive. We were living off of the land except for a small amount of supplies that we would take in with us and so we were living a subsistence agricultural lifestyle so we would you know after breakfast kind of through evening time go into the jungle and either work or collect

plants or perform agricultural tasks or continue to the development of our homestead and then after that we would kind of have an evening relaxation where we would hang out and there were always different kinds of medicinal plants and potions around as well as tobacco and this kind of always a dialogue and an understanding of spirit this idea of spirit. Now it's very hard to describe what spirit is energy things I don't it's very hard but in the jungle it's all the time it's just there all the time and the people think like that all the time and they live within their mythology all the time and so that's in your head all the time and the oral history is being recounted all the time and how people

describe their experiences are in that oral history and it's in the mythology and they don't differentiate in their normal language from dream state to waking state to hallucinatory states they just speak and it's just consciousness to them and so you know in interacting with them and stuff we would go through kind of a time where I would kind of like an anthropologist ask questions endlessly to which they would get frustrated sometimes they're tired but I would just you know ask question ask question ask question ask question thousands of questions and then what language were you speaking they speak they speak Spanish with a dialect it's the I would say maybe 50% of the vocabulary is Spanish vocabulary with a kind of you know

not exactly following Spanish grammar it's close it's really close like the root of it is Spanish but then there's all of these different language vocabulary words coming into it and then we would go into a ceremony in the night you know so we'd have that evening time and then we would go into another ceremony and ceremony meant training and it meant learning and it never meant like tripping out or just having fun it was never like that it was always very serious it was considered life or death life or death it was considered life or death like you could you could in some way damage yourself during these ceremonies yeah like you could be harmed to the point that you would not physically recover and it was considered

life or death and that has happened yes I never I never witnessed it in the time that I was there personally in our group of people but I witnessed it outside of our group of people and I have had many friends that have died and we and we hear this story I mean it always makes the news that people in ayahuasca ceremonies have died like you do hear about that now and what what kind of death it would would you expect like a heart attack is it a how what happened it's it's really hard from a Westerner's perspective to understand because the Westerner is going to look at it from like what's the you know pharmacological components involved and what's really taking place and they're going to try and get really analytical about it but until you've really

experienced the nature of the ayahuasca ceremony you don't really know what it's like to be in a living mythology you don't know what it's like to be in that living dream and right we don't understand psychosomatic states and so when they meant life or death they meant that you could go into a psychosomatic reaction from training that could literally kill you and I'm not talking about ayahuasca I'm talking about training in the Amazon where we worked with hundreds of plants many of them extremely toxic right not just ayahuasca ceremonies many many other plants many of them considered you know not even not even supposed to be ingested and the shamans have this really interesting mindset that you prove your capacity as a shaman by ingesting lethally poisonous

substances and they say only the the chant that they give to it and your own inner fortitude can help you survive that experience and so it makes me think of the Pentecostal Christians who like handle serpents and the ideas this was the idea is you will be able to take up serpents and you want poison won't work on you anymore this is an archetypical concept that if you surrender to the universe in some way you're going to be protected in the most extraordinary ways so that's very interesting and I think another interesting distinction between this tradition of taking psychedelics versus modern traditions of taking psychedelics is if you take psychedelics these days and you don't do it just a party you do it for

a soul searching night with friends they will say don't worry we're going to take care of you I mean I know that like you're not going to die you'll be fine no matter what you're going to be fine bad trips are the best trips and we've got a suitcase with Thorazine in it in case things get really wild we'll just knock you out so the idea that you're entering into these experiences in the most for me at least the most alien environment speaking a different language in your 20s yeah being told yeah you might die tonight yeah that does not when they talk about set and setting right is like the two primary important factors in a good trip you need to be in a good mindset and you need to be in a good place yeah it's like being at the top of a roller

coaster and as it's going off the guy's like yeah I don't know but the tracks might not work this go around how how do you deal with that man how do you deal with when I'm look if I just take a small amount of mushrooms I'm certain I'm dying like how do you how do you deal with it how would you deal with that in your 20s in a in a by the way I don't know maybe you're still in your 20s but how would you deal with that okay how would you deal with that in your 20s in a hut after having worked all day and somebody's like yeah you could die tonight how do you mentally deal with that you don't you don't mentally deal with it you're scared and you you you show up it's it's show up or you're out it's really simple it's you show up to every ceremony or you're out like the western

ayahuasca culture and the western psychedelic culture and what I was trained in are two entirely different things they are not even remotely compatible to each other I was accepted as as close as a blood relative into these two ancient lineages that go back at least seven or eight generations of these medicine practices and they don't have the same attitudes or beliefs of set and setting nor do they have the same attitudes and beliefs around the purposes of these experiences the the purpose in in a true shaman in a tribal society is to be a being who is capable of going into an an extraordinary state with enough clarity to be able to retrieve something valuable for the tribe and if it is not valuable then you are not shaman and you are tossed out

you are you're completely ostracized from that community and you're not able to to do really anything I mean you're not you're not even functional anymore and so this idea that that you know that that a western psychedelic experience could be compared to this it doesn't really work because they're they're two totally different uh different you know systems in this system it was about becoming something and transforming to take on the wildest difficulties that the tribe could possibly face you know from any kind of disease physical illnesses psychosomatic or spiritual based illnesses that they believe in you know and so uh it was never about a question of finding yourself or having a good experience like the way the shamans fit facilitate those experiences for

other people to become trained as shaman it's a it's another direction it's a different path so this is like yeah so the the there like it seems like there is a well-mapped landscape that these people have for the these experiences absolutely and that's another difference too and you know I think it feels like you got like you feel like western psychedelic culture is do you feel like it's if you created like a hierarchy here where you know not at all no I just think it's uh it gets confusing when the word ayahuasca gets thrown around as the means in which to describe the practices okay I got you yeah because the the uh the substance is the same and the training is totally different the purpose is totally different

the reason is totally different the background behind it's totally different so I just want everyone to understand that that you know having an ayahuasca experience facilitated for westerners which is what we created in the Amazon it was a purpose for that is really designed to uh you know to allow someone to have the experiences that they're coming for not training experiences like you want your navy seal guys to protect you you don't want to go become one you want your shamans to be able to handle every single ceremonial experience that could possibly happen I mean you do not want your facilitator passing out you don't want your facilitator running away you don't want it them having a cataclysmic psychological failure in the ceremony where they're facilitating

it for you can you imagine like your shaman starts freaking out you're fucked you totally totally in a really terrible position like really terrible like you do not want that to happen and that there are stories about that everywhere that has never happened in our work or in our in our center like you got to sit with your shaman and like rub his back and help him yeah like oh like let me now become your your helper and facilitator at healer here or whatever well this is I think one of the like one of the primary errors people do make when they're taking psychedelics with friends is that they they end up taking the same amount of psychedelics with someone who has never taken them before and then they don't they start freaking out and they have to like hide that so this is

one thing that is very notable about what you're talking about is that I think what we're looking at here is the difference in uh what happens when people repress um and I I know that the sacrament of ayahuasca does not encapsulate this religion it's a religion right you could say it's a religion a tradition I would say in the amazon there are traditions of the use of this as a medicine and then in other parts of the world there are actual formed religions around the use of it as a sacrament but I suppose what they all have in common is this is a lineage of people who have been consuming psychoactive substances yeah for we don't even know how thousands and thousands of years I mean there are there are parts pot shards so little bits of ceramics with ayahuasca designs

on them from three or four thousand years ago whereas like here in the west yeah psychedelics for most of us are an illegal experience that if you've tried it it's like a crazy thing to do and we don't really have the maps for the experience like they do uh and and that's to me the what's really interesting is that um the the western concept of psychedelic experiences seems to be it's purely subjective you're going into your own subconscious you're seeing the processing of your brain and it's going to be different for every single person yeah so this concept of a shared psychedelic experience with aspects of it that repeat from person to person to person are amazing to me because that that's a quantifiable thing if they've really found a map

for some kind of state of consciousness that somehow connects human beings within this realm that inflates while under the influence of these various side yeah absolutely then that's quantifiable and I would say it is I would say from my experiences that I've seen the phenomena that are that are expressed are they're incredible and they even see miraculous at times but they're literal and real and they're not even figurative like when I first heard the descriptions of ayahuasca ceremonies and I went there I said come on there's no way there's just no way I've never had anything even remotely close to that and I had you know experimented in other things in other ways and stuff and so when I saw ayahuasca after my first ayahuasca ceremony I was like there's no way that that they

underwrote those stories they didn't overwrite those stories they literally underwrote those stories I couldn't even believe it you know and I think that's like where that huge impact is and then hanging out with these guys I mean just just to give an example what you're talking about like outside of ayahuasca ceremonies deep in the jungle like days away from a phone Alberto and Hulu used to say goodbye to each other like the parting of two guys with a handshake get around a couple of canoes and say call me if you need me literally like call me if you need me both of them had never used a telephone yeah okay so now at first I thought these guys are totally out there they're they're they're playing on my mind they're fooling with me this can't be real

right and then all of a sudden I start to realize with them they're very serious and they're being literal you know and then then your world starts to change you know your mind well then how do you do okay so look before we get into that because you know I you know I have a picture of Neem Karoli Baba on my wall which you noticed and this is of course you stories about him are very similar which is he was there was no question about it there was telepathy there he just could do it yeah it's real so I'm curious do you feel hesitant to talk about what you really think this is do you feel like you have to like translate this into a something that's palatable for people because I I would suspect that you have like an idea of what this dimension is that

people are entering into sure what is it I I mean for I don't okay the terms are really hard to use because no one knows what they mean no one knows what dimension is so you're going into a dimension but what what's that I mean what what this is is a expanded state of consciousness okay and sapien has a capacity to be able to align sapien's consciousness and when it does extraordinary for people who are not aligned in that way experiences happen so you come with a western mindset and then you have this experience and you go into this altered state and what people call another dimension or another world but I would emphasize that that's what they call it I'm not saying it is I'm saying that's what they call it what it is is shared and what it is is

literal and what it is is visionary and what it is is consciousness why don't you want to call it another world because it's this world it's not another world it's literally this world and it's not another dimension it's literally this dimension and it's not another universe it's literally this universe and and we're talking about expanding into the universe and we're talking about expanding into the world and we're talking about expanding into dimension and really learning what this is so it's not just a mathematical concept that I I'm going to sit in front of a white board and be told this is a dimension instead I'm going to have an experience where I'm going to come out of it and say that was dimensional that really was dimensional like that made my math

make sense it made my my science make sense it made my history make sense it made my own self make sense it made the earth make sense and you know I just see that as something just so factual and so literal it's not even of debate it's and then then there's all this other concept given to it and the very first things that the shamans were were teaching me was that there was no other this was not an other experience this was part of this but you had to go into an extraordinary state to be able to achieve it or or get into it or understand it you you now the the reports inevitably have within them contact with beings yeah for sure what are those beings again no one knows what those beings are but what we know is that there's a I mean if you go

outside of the ayahuasca cultures and you go globally there's at least a 15 000 to 50 000 year archaeological history of homo sapiens experiencing beings experiencing this extraordinary experiencing these these visions and this is again what the shamans in the amazon called spirit and it's very simple to them it's a it's an it's an energetic expression maybe very akin to like a platonic concept of archetype you think that's what it is I think to them it is I think I think that's what they're trying to describe but they don't really understand outside of the mythology in a western way how to describe it right but what's what is happening is that they understand spirit for instance like spirit of jaguar it's not this jaguar named kitty and this jaguar

named chloe it's jaguar spirit like original shape and original image of the jaguar and then they call it a mama they call it like the mother jaguar like the first biggest mythological jaguar this is like rupert shell drakes what does he call that do you ever read any rupert shell drake he's pretty interesting so the ideas and not guys who are shell drake fans prepare to send me an email about how I butchered this description because it's kind of but it's interesting because he talks about I think I believe it's called the morphic field and so the the idea is like when a thing happens it it creates like a what I think he uses the term a runnel and the time space continuum so a thing happens and then that thing happens and then that there's a tendency of that thing to

happen because it happened once and it might happen again now if it happens again it keeps happening it keeps happening then suddenly you create this you know platonic ideal then suddenly like the jaguar any jaguar you see in the wild may you never see a jaguar in the wild or I wouldn't want to is more like a flower growing off of this infinite jaguar tree yeah that's growing into time so it's interesting you know because this again this concept of entities have you ever seen the someone did a diagram where they took all these reports of DMT trips you saw that and and and the word that kept that like the words that came up the most were embold and entity just keeps coming up again and again and again and in the jungle the entity is has these very like

natural appearances which is interesting to me or from what I've heard please stop me if I'm wrong yeah I think you just starting there though I mean that's a beginning of it those would be considered nature beings nature beings yeah I mean again a way to classify and categorize a lot I mean in an ayahuasca ceremony if we wanted to just think of them as something you're seeing yes and not try to describe what it is but you're seeing it and so you and I could both agree are you seeing that and I'm like yeah I'm seeing that you see in that yeah I'm seeing that yeah okay in that case a shaman in a ayahuasca ceremony is going to be working with or calling or interacting with thousands to tens of thousands to millions to hundreds of millions in multiplicity of those things

in an ayahuasca ceremony calling on them yes so you knowing them calling on them and working with them fundamentally a shaman is considered like of ayahuasca a doctor of plant spirit medicine and the spirit part is like kind of part of a trinity it's you know plant spirit medicine so you have the plant you have the spirit and then combined a medicine which is going to do something positive for you well you okay so we here you have um this concept of a shared in a western way of saying a shared hallucination yeah so this i like vision or hallucination both are good visions way better way better but a share but let's just say like so like okay the idea of the shaman goes into this space brings something back to the tribe and to bring it back to the

tribe he doesn't have to just be adept enough to find this information whatever this data packet is and bring it back into the world he also has to be adept enough to understand the people he's communicating with so he has to be a translator too a kind of translator for like for this experience yeah so in the same way it seems like the next step for this ayahuasca i don't know what you would call it this sudden explosion of ayahuasca into the world would be for people like you to figure out a way not just to bring the data back for members of a tribe but to bring the data back for members of the western tribe and and and to to in some way or another quantify these experiences because if there is a shared if you can sit around a fire with people

engaged in this ritual and say hey i'm seeing what what is something you have seen in with a group i don't know people always say that they see faces and they see the same face yeah i mean there's many faces they describe the faces and then people agree that those are the faces that they were seeing so this is a quantifiable thing and at that point that sure that this at this point now you have a way to open up and to revisit a much reviled and mainly debunked area of psychology which is that i the many many human beings have reported experiences like this many many human beings have reported experiences with true clairvoyance and say i have experienced this myself in my own way but yet when you say that to like Richard Dawkins right he's like fuck you you are

out of your mind you are high on drugs you are high your friends were high your experience is irrelevant invalid has nothing to do with anything that helps the world hippie you know that is i don't think i'm exaggerating no i've i've heard many things like that in my life i mean that seems to be a common thread of thought and and speech so why why do you think this isn't being i just wonder why here we have this again it reports of these incredible experiences shared experiences how would you go about proving that human beings together can share in a vision which implies if you're saying that your your friends could communicate with one another telepathically that's what they said and if this is true which i think it is

but who the fuck am i but i think it's true if this is true then it needs to be studied quantified and then we have to figure out a way to like teach this not just to people in the in the jungle not just to people in certain areas of the world but to the whole planet right wouldn't you think i don't know i don't know about teaching these things to everybody and what it's about and what it's not about i i think when i you know i i did a lot of work in mind exploration and consciousness exploration and what we're budding up against is ideologies we're just budding up against ideologies and we've been budding up against ideologies for thousands of years and many of the wars today on the planet are being fought over ideologies yes

and the expression that of the the quote of the debunker is ideological even though he's saying he's not ideological and so i just don't see any reason to debate ideology i just see ideology as is in a place of freedom of spirituality and religion it's a hundred percent someone's own thoughts and own ideas and fundamentally there's this huge problem right now that there is a consensus reality on the verb is like oh that is oh that is oh that is oh that's that thing oh that is that is that is that is and as that happens over and over and over again people start to forget what something actually is and so then then we get this really like confined concept of of existence reality where existence reality is a hundred percent what we know but there's

there's nothing outside of it now right there's just nothing outside of it but a whole universe ninety six point six billion light years in diameter so so i have my consensus personal reality which is and i've worked my whole life on expanding my reality and i think of my reality could fit inside a bottle cap compared to ninety six point six billion light years of universe that i'm part of right now during the podcast utilizing it to speak so so being at alive of it part of it feeling it experiencing it real time you know as as as i'm speaking so so why do i think why would i allow my mind to think that my reality is reality why would i think that reality my concept of it is describing a fact when i know philosophically within my own mind there are still paradoxes

there are still questions there are still points of conflict and there are still areas where i know that i'm just wrong i'll take a shot at answering the question there is a one a story about the doctor figured out that doctors should wash their hands i can't remember his name you could look it up on google but basically there is a doctor who realized that if he washed his hands his hands prior to delivering a baby then the infant mortality rate dropped because the baby wouldn't get sick because back then they didn't know about germs had no idea they didn't know about germs so i mean which is crazy to think so doctors would like handle dead bodies they would like be in like some filthy hospital handling just blood and you know actually i just read that um

um god ben franklin or thomas jefferson one of these ben franklin like there was a a slave that told the slave owner about inoculation and he was doing this and everyone's making fun of him like what are you doing in the same way this doctor figured out you wash your hands and babies don't get sick and other doctors responded gentlemen do not wash their hands that was the response that's the ideology so right gentlemen why combat ideologies why use the scientific method to create a repeatable experience when you're reporting some extraordinary experience or some extraordinary ability that could radically transform the entire planet for the better because it radically transforms the planet for the better and i think that going

i wouldn't want to do it i like talking about this stuff but if i had to sit down with a fucking ruler and a like spreadsheets or like sit in a room with scientists imbibing uh iowaska so i wouldn't want to do that but i would do it if i thought that it would help and i think that what we're talking about here is a some kind of as of yet unquantified biome that these shamans have figured out how to communicate and connect with and i think that if that biome just like any other any other life form i think that can be explored we can go into that we can figure out who these are what these things are and we can enslave them i'm just kidding i was gonna say like i i mean while you were going on that i was gonna say like why do you think they're

gonna show up when you start to investigate them that's funny like you know they don't play by human rules yeah but they don't play by by sapien concepts they laugh at that well what why they laugh at sapiens walking through a forest not knowing they're there they laugh at the trees the trees laugh at sapiens walking through the forest because they say the monkeys know they're there but the sapiens don't wow yeah so the trees literally say that to people in ceremony like they have come and said well i had this incredible vision where i realized i was walking through the forest all day and now i've had an experience in iowaska of the trees communicating with me and they were showing me how i was walking through the forest all day not knowing they were there and that they were gonna

come and then show them that vision and then show them how the other animals in the forest are aware of what's happening in the forest not just what's happening inside the sapiens mind this is why i've always thought the term homo sapiens funny because it means wise ape and it's like whoever came up with that was clearly being sarcastic it was like a sarcastic right i don't know that's what it feels like uh because because yeah i know what you're saying it's like here is this and you know i've only had a couple of like super powerful mushroom trips where i've seen entities living in trees that seemed kind of like perplexed that i was even aware of them at all but they were aware that i was aware and and see and actually now i described an experience i don't mean to interrupt you but i

described an experience not knowing you've had that experience and now you're describing that experience to me having had that experience this is why yeah now we're sharing this idea yeah exactly but my my experience wasn't like some and it wasn't like the tree it was like there was a what something that looked a lot like and so embarrassing to say i'll say it something that looked like a gnome or something what is that embarrassing because who wants to hear a hippie talk about mushroom gnomes man i think that's why they're called mushroom gnomes i think so many people have had that experience they've enculturated it but his response to see to the fact that i was aware of him was not laughing at me he seemed like just mildly annoyed like it wasn't like a

dramatic response or anything it just seemed like he was like yeah not really don't really care he came out to watch the sunset he was coming out so what and so when i see that and i you know most i've talked about on the podcast a few times but it's not like i like talk about that all the time if i see a i saw a um wildcat up on a rock uh here and you know i could tell everybody about that and i was like wow that's cool but if i'm like man i saw a fucking gnome people are like are you all right so i this is outside their experience but i mean i don't know i'd say did you see that commercial where they had that little gnome which commercial any commercial with a little no right right right this is this is the i always talk about these with people too because of the example i

use is santa claus i say what is santa claus because everybody knows santa claus i what is santa claus i say santa claus is a belief system and santa claus is an effigy and santa claus is a mythology and a culture and it's an industry yeah and it's uh it's now these effigies these statutes these representations of but if you go to find santa claus you will not find santa claus that's right right but then you will find representations for santa claus absolutely everywhere and then i had asked does santa claus exist or does santa claus not exist and then they say no we teach our children that santa claus doesn't exist and i say that is insane santa claus exists everywhere there is no way you could tell a four-year-old that they are not existing with santa claus when

they love santa claus and santa claus is in every picture during one month of the year a whole month is dedicated to that that image and i say i say that is its existence now the question is where does santa claus exist and i say santa claus exists in the collective mind or the collective conscience i think that is where you and i maybe disagree because i think that well santa claus exists there but these things i'm not saying those things i'm just saying santa claus okay i'm not saying that and and this people always do this when i talk to they always say that because i said one thing i'm limiting it to other things i didn't mean that like no no but not not to see but i mean that in in literal to express as an idea i got you just because if you say one thing it

doesn't mean you're limiting that thing it could also be so many other things and so you know someone says to me am am i spirit and i go yeah they go is that all i am what about my body your body spirit i thought that's what i was looking at right right and then they're like oh i never limited that that notion so i think what you're talking about exists i don't think it exists in a collective conscience i think what you're talking about exists i think they are energetic patterns they are real energetic patterns like you're an energetic pattern it's an energetic pattern some are physical some are non-physical when we were driving up here we looked at all the antennas yeah and all those antennas are there because of the non-visible right they're reading the non-visible that's why

they're there right you know and if you uh if you take circuit and psychedelics people say that they can start to see those waves yes people say they can experience the waves going to the towers and see it all happening and so there's a great example of how there's something that's non-physical but exists a lot of people agree it exists some people can see it and don't and it's just a little bit more rational because you put up an antenna instead of your own head do you do what do you think is going to be the impact that this uh okay so sorry i i thought of this question before you came but let me reframe it so back in the 60s you know yoga was a new thing for the west like people had heard of it it was just a new thing the idea of any of it like i think in the early days people

were telling me how they there was no yoga mats you couldn't go buy like a foam yoga mat you would you'd like throw a towel down maybe but you'd probably just be on the floor and that's what yoga was people didn't know and this is like an ancient ancient form of meditation hatha yoga so in the same way here's a brand new merging of cultures yeah that we're witnessing you are part of the merging you have brought back information that you gained from training into the world so what do you see as the impact of this information and these traditions and these plant medicines entering into western culture how do you think this is going to affect the way that we live in this country and in the west over the next couple of decades that's a great question

that's a great question um i think first it's an awakening of the imagination again in our culture and based off our educational systems the imagination is used to support the rational mind after about the age four or five and uh the resurgence of the neo shamanic cultures are about awakening a new mythology and awakening a new understanding and that's all uh right brain hemisphere understandings so we had so i think first that's going to happen and um i think right now we're in the process where you know like we talked about earlier there's a lot of stories and there's a lot of people saying a lot of things about it and without the science to really whittle all of that down there's it's a lot of ideas and i think this is the idea phase what comes i think

beyond that is what you're talking about which is where science really gets involved and starts to get a real cohesive understanding of of what's happening with these phenomena and then from there the uh i think we we we finally get to see a balance of a resurgence of a new kind of mythology that can now balance our rational intellect and hopefully merge these what seem like two disparate worlds but i don't think they are i think there are two disparate ways of understanding the brain this is uh one of allister crowley's predictions is that we were entering into an age where matter and spirit will fuse together and um i don't know what that necessarily looks like but um i i can feel it happening you you can i mean look at when a psychedelic and i i feel

like when i'm saying it from your perspective i'm limiting what you've learned to like just be ayahuasca but it's okay anytime a psychoactive a new psychedelic enters into a society it's an it is like a ufo has crashed into into it's like roswell yeah you can't imagine what it's gonna do look what look at what lsd did we really will never fully understand the impact that lsd has had on our society right but it's had a huge huge huge impact and we can't imagine because it's underground you know people can't really talk about it so much so in the same way this is we just can't imagine how this is impacting our psyche so i'm really quite excited about it um do you do you feel like they're because i've spoken to people who have had

very intense ayahuasca experiences and they say we're fucked they say that there's something coming that that is is not great that there's something on the precipice that we're going to go through a thing that is not very good as much as you would like to think that's not the case do you agree with that i don't know um there's so many prophetic concepts inside ayahuasca and i think it's very hard to separate your own prophecies from the prophecies but um if we look at just the our history and we look at a direction that we've been going as a species i don't think it takes a supernatural concept to make that conclusion that things are desperately going in a direction of failure i agree like i think the supernatural part is like is like the cherry on the sunday i think

we've created the the destruction and the descent in our own decision making in our own our own uh planning or lack of planning i mean it's hard to see which is the chicken or the egg on that one but we just drove through la and i was saying i don't think there's a lot of planning to the whole of la there's might be a lot of little planning to each little sector of land that's been segmented off but the whole thing itself does not look like the whole thing received one cohesive planning i really love that somebody who's been trained in this way they notice power lines and they notice like what you're noticing is really cool but come on man you know i you know that there are these prophecies you must know sure i mean i've heard all about them i've seen them

i've heard them i've had visions of them i've heard all of these things i've been in this world for 15 years how would i not have been introduced to every aspect of this so what can you sum up that prophecy because when it was described to me i mean look i my idea is let's focus on the light and the beauty and the potential for humanity and uh but man it's not just the ayahuasca community it's like you know when crowley talked about this new age that we're entering he said the age will be born in blood the way a baby is born it's the same thing i hate that shit man because i think it's dangerous and creepy and like right now everyone's freaking out and everyone's focusing on the negative fears everywhere fears everywhere everywhere yeah still i think to like i would love to hear

a summation of what the the mythology or what the the the traditional idea about the end times is and then i would love to hear from you what a potential antidote to that might be okay so so we'll go with that we'll go with the blood first and then the sugar second blood than the blood that's blood of the stitches um you know the the general concept of it is very biblical and it's apocalyptic description um i personally don't agree i just don't because as long as there's a play the second half of this yes then it's uh then there's another there's another play it's not the end but the concept is just that that um you know that there's a natural a physical natural response to the sort of quote unquote unnatural way that man has treated the earth and that the earth is

going to reset that entire scale so what it looks like in their opinion is a massive massive cataclysmic change like a massive systemic cataclysmic resetting that's just what they all they all say now if you want to get details of blood and guts go watch horror movies go watch independence day go watch this is san adreus falter whatever that movie was go go draw that's what they're talking about like this is this is the imagination of it i do not share this imagination i think we have been on this hell bent let's destroy everything kick for 200 000 years and so i think we have 200 000 years of enculturation fear over the mass planetary destruction and what we're really fearing is our own mortality and then we're personally collectively fearing that mortality

so i don't really believe in those same doom and gloom stories because i believe in human innovation which is how all of these things got started including the possible solutions and so my antidote is human innovation i think that the thinkers who are not freaked out and scared by this so that their minds don't get shut down by the the fear propaganda and the nature of of the kind of emotional distortion that society has been under for a long time they are going to continue to think outside the box and the addison's and franklin's of society are going to come forth and are going to be able to you know invent and it's the invention that it will bring solution and we don't know what those inventions are yet because they're not invented that's the whole

point of invention it's not like oh another guy's going to reinvent electricity it's like going to be a whole nother understanding and i think it's going to happen in the realms of consciousness i think the right now the debate is a three-dimensional fourth dimensional debate it's a is this a material or non-material is is it solely linear or is there also this other and we've discovered aspects of the other in different scientific tests and we have all these different theories but how do they really all fit together i simply think that they will come together fit together into a harmonious balance and that that is what can reset the psyche and consciousness beautiful i'm very excited to hear that you don't agree with that stuff because i you know i i don't

agree with it either but you know i got i had this conversation with a friend of mine and we're talking about the inevitability of artificial intelligence um a strong ai as it's called yeah and so we could say if everything's spirit then the ai will be spirit sure and so the question is this is an ambiguous soup this is a an ethically ambiguous super intelligence that is coming to the planet from what you've taught me today i would say it's already on the planet it's just going to sort of take a new form that will be the community in other words instead of the shaman going into the i'm just going to say astral because i don't know if i know that instead of the shaman going into the astral plane the astral plane is going to start pouring out of some kind of

technological some some new technology yeah i think so and around artificial intelligence i would like just to say again let's not get scared about these ideas we're we're thinking that we're talking about future creations only in the understanding of the past and if we talked about something like artificial intelligence i would pray truly pray that we would have intelligence for once neither artificial nor first just intelligence that doesn't need fighting all the time it doesn't need beating each other up all the time doesn't need spilling blood all the time to prove that you have blood inside you doesn't need shooting everybody all the time doesn't need all those things it maybe just says hey there's a whole another way to look at this that isn't so dramatic

like the way we've been relating to it previously or it could say hey sapiens you should have been as smart as the monkeys because they saw us but you didn't see us and look what you did look what you did you like this is what i was talking about with my friends it's like what if this intelligence is just justice you know what if it's just like yeah you guys fucked up this beautiful beautiful place and i don't see really why where there's where was your mercy where was your mercy how many of you are merciful some of you were but as a whole it's like maybe the ant not by the way i'm being very dire here but the ants the ants that infest my house recently you know there maybe there were a couple of ants in there that were like god i don't know if this is the right thing

to do man these these giants don't seem to like it very much they've given us warning signs again and again and again that didn't stop me eventually from unfortunately having to like put poison down where the ants were coming from and the ants are all dead now so in the same way it's like sometimes in my more frightened moments which i'm sorry to put negativity out here you're such a bright light but sometimes in my more negative moments i think well maybe justice is doesn't mean taking the side of sapiens maybe justice means taking the side of orcas and green things and just like yeah so these doom and gloom prophecies sometimes maybe it's not you know what it who it's not doom and gloom for the surviving trees they're not going to be like god

don't you miss those humans remember those awesome filthy stinky angry clear cutting things glad they're gone sure i mean i what i hear is uh the same argument that i've heard my whole life that the supernatural is going to mirror my binary dualistic way of understanding right and that i'm going to attribute my psychological difficulties and understanding an omniscient force that doesn't require my light dark balance and star wars and early childhood to figure it out and then it keeps getting put that my binary dualistic thinking is being placed upon the supernatural as the way to describe the supernatural and the supernatural's uh response to me and that is exactly what i've been presented through organized ideology and religion my whole life is that god is a miserable

angry vengeful figure in our psyche and that we are supposed to be god fearing and i used to say in the amazon all the time that if that's the case then we need to find god based in love not a god based in vengeance and then we talk about justice and that word justice and um i fundamentally have never been able to understand how justice could have two sides how could there be two sides to justice how is one side the lack of justice and at the other side justice did not ever make sense to me justice has to include all for there to be justice or there's only lack of justice and so what i see is a lack of justice i do not see justice i don't see fairness or equality or balance or equilibrium yet we use the the binary flip opposite argument of these terms to try to

describe a supernatural experience whereas in all of my supernatural experiences and in all of them i've drunk ayahuasca over 1200 times i've had thousand other cannabis based ceremonies i have never once had an experience of the supernatural that represented homo sapiens binary dualistic way of thinking never once did i hear a godlike figure or a deity like figure or even a figure from one of the organized religions express themselves that way that is so cool man wow you're awesome thank you so much for it's already been an hour thank you so much uh wow you are um you are really cool thank you this was so such a wonderful conversation and obviously i mean we could talk like this for hopefully many times yeah this is a really thank you so much i'm very

moved and i have to i have so much fun thinking about some of these concepts um how do people find you uh yeah we we uh have a website called white morpho dot net and uh we made a special for the listeners and so if you want to come to white morpho dot net forward slash d t f h f h so white morpho dot net forward slash d t f h and uh we have a $1 trial for our membership and to come learn all about the stuff we've been talking about and to have personal experiences of uh the supernatural and to know yourself in a deeper way and to really improve life thank you so much that's really cool man thanks for giving them a discount yeah thank you so much beautiful thank you thanks for listening everybody that was hamilton salver

you can find more about him by going to hamilton salver dot com big thanks to casper dot com for sponsoring this episode go to casper dot com forward slash family hour to get $50 off of a brand new mattress don't forget to bookmark our amazon link to subscribe to us on itunes to join the forum and most importantly to join the forum of spirit filled with an infinite number of nature beings gods goddesses and everything in between which you're one little tiny piece of all right friends i'll see you soon we got some great podcasts coming up with emal amos and drew kerry and jesse moinahan some really excellent podcasts are on the way i'll see you then stay cool and don't be afraid harry christina