Duncan Trussell Family Hour - JOAN HALIFAX and RAGHU MARKUS

Episode Date: May 4, 2015

Roshi Joan Halifax and Raghu Markus join the DTFH to discuss love, courage, and Zen.  Recorded at the spring retreat in Maui!

Ghost Towns, Dirty Angel, out now. You can get Dirty Angel anywhere you get your music. Ghost Towns, Dirty Angel, out now. New album and tour date coming this summer. Hello, my dear sweet friends. It is I, Duncan Trussell, and you are listening to the Duncan Trussell Family Hour Podcast, and I am recording from the Ram Dass retreat in Maui,

which means that right now I'm kind of a metaphysical drooling mess right now. I'm completely baked on everybody's good vibe. I feel high as a kite. These are retreats. You get weird, teary moments, and the whole thing just blasts you open. It's really, really intense,

and I'm realizing that it's kind of tough to record an intro to a podcast in this kind of weird state, which feels like I've been given a combination of all of my favorite psychedelics at once, and I just sort of want to ooze into the carpet and transform into the entire universe and float away. That's kind of how you feel.

Also, the ocean is outside, and it's filled with beautiful fishies that I want to look at out there as I snorkel, and also I've had these incredible moments during the retreat where I feel as though I've just merged into everything, and it's just an odd feeling, and it's weird to record a podcast

in this state of consciousness. I feel like it would be better for me to just come down a little bit from the weird spiritual buzz I'm getting from this thing than to record this intro, but I feel like I've got to do it, and here's why. One of our guests today, Roshi Joan Halifax, who is an incredible human being.

She is a Zen Roshi. She runs a Zen Center called Upaya, and she was married to this kind of infamous psychiatrist named Stan Groff, and they used to administer LSD to dying people to help them understand that death doesn't necessarily mean an extinction, but is rather a phase shift.

So she's obviously a very intense person, and she's an activist, and she has a lot of ties in Nepal. So I'm not gonna do any commercials for this podcast, but I am going to ask you guys, if you feel compelled to do so, to go to Upaya.org, that's U-P-A-Y-A.org, and click on the Nepal Earthquake Relief Fund,

and let's embody what the folks over at Singularity University are trying to do, which is let's use the technology of podcasting and the internet and social networking to actually beam money in the direction of folks who just experienced the geologic equivalent of an atom bomb going off underneath their villages and temples and homes, and let's just do it. I know you guys can do it, I know you will do it,

you don't have to do it, and you shouldn't feel guilty if you can't or just don't wanna do it, but if there's any kind of inkling of a desire to actually help those folks over there, and you've been hesitating to do it because you've heard how many, many charities aren't actually run by human beings, but are run by monsters who, instead of allocating

the funds that they get from people who are donating to the cause, to help folks, they use that money to buy cocaine enemas, which they spray into themselves and dance the night away at nightclubs, I get it, we're all a little skeptical when it comes to any kind of fund or any kind of donation thing. I certainly have been, my God, the stories that you hear

about these vicious demons who instead of using the cash, this is not the kind of thing that you see when you're laying in your hotel room and you're baked and you're watching that nefarious weirdo standing next to a child and pretending that he's actually helping him. This is the real deal, I've met Roshi Joan, she's been working with folks in Nepal

for a really long time. She's got a network over there of people who are actually able to get water filters, tarps, and rice to people who desperately need it right now. My God, I'm doing a telethon, I'm so sorry, but really, you know, we have this sad window of opportunity right now, which is this space, the most critical space after a disaster hits

and a lot of people have died and there's not access to clean water, then a lot of diseases can start breaking out and a lot of awful things can happen and Roshi Joan is working really hard right now. I don't think she's sleeping actually, just to try to get resources over there. So if you feel like it, go to upaya.org, that's U-P-A-Y-A.org

and send some green energy in the direction of the folks in Nepal who need your help so much. I'm at a meditation retreat. I'm allowed to do this kind of stuff, while I'm at a meditation retreat, but I still hope you will forgive me. And also, before we get going with this podcast, I wanna thank everybody who came out to the live shows.

It was such a blast. Thank you guys, it was great meeting you and I'm gonna be doing many more of them and I hope that you will return. So, without further ado, if you will please open your heart chakras, ascend to the, out of the confines of your ego, merge into the universal whole

and blast is not the universal whole, but the W-H-O-L-E and blast as much love energy as you possibly can in the direction of today's guests. Ragu Marcus, who you've definitely heard on the podcast before, he runs the Love Server member foundation. He's got his own podcast called Mind Rolling. You can find that over at MindPod.net,

which is the spirituality podcast network that he has helped organize. And there's a lot of great podcasts over there with Ramda, Sharon Salzburg, Roshi Joan, Krishna Das. Go check it out if you want a nice blast of philosophy or spirituality. And also please welcome to the podcast, Roshi Joan Halifax.

If you like her and you get a good vibe from her, which I certainly have, and you feel like going to an actual retreat, she's gonna be doing one May 22nd through the 25th at Upaya in Santa Fe, New Mexico. So, go to that retreat. These retreats are the real deal, man. I don't know why they work, but they definitely work.

And it's really fun and intense. And if you're around that area, you just feel like doing something outside of your comfort zone. It's a great thing to do. Okay, everybody, please welcome to the Dunkin' Trustle Family Hour podcast, Ragu Marcus and Roshi Joan Halifax.

수록 Rw Marcus Rw Marcus Rw Marcus Rw Marcus Rw Marcus Rw Marcus We're rolling and we're,

we're mind-rolling and we're Duncan Trussell-ing. Family-arring. Yeah, something like that. Here with Roshi Joan Halifax, who, Duncan, did you, you heard Duncan this morning when he, when he was with Ramdus? You're really, really cute. Thank you. Really cute.

And he said, the first thing he said was, I am so scared standing up here with you. Yes. And, of course, Ramdus put a pin in that right away, right? Yes, he did. Yeah. So Roshi, Roshi, I've had two people in my life that were, well, the first one, to give you an idea,

the first person was a man named Casey Tuari, who, if you watch the films of Maharaj, named Karoli Bama, you'll see he is, he was one for us, Maharaj would look at him, and bang, he'd go into a deep samadhi of some sort. Right? And he, if you'll remember this, Mr. Natural, the comic. Oh, yeah.

Okay. Do you know Mr. Natural? Yes, I do. Oh, my God. R. Crumb. Yeah. By the way, R. Crumb. Get him.

He was exactly like Mr. Natural. Every moment it was about awareness. I mean, he was one of Maharaj's closest devotees. But if he wasn't a Buddhist, I don't know who was. I mean, he was a Shavite in the Hindu thing. But his whole thing with us was about being present. And he would remind us all the time, like in the cartoon, Mr. Natural,

he would say one thing or another. If you think you're doing this, my boy, you're lost. Say things like that. Second person in my life like this, who I discovered later in life, is Roshi. Oh, no, who's that? So you're coming here because Roshi never does anything. No bullshit ever, no matter what the situation.

No trying to make nice. Right. And she has, and we've gotten to know each other way better than the last couple of years only, a few years, through Ramdas. And I'm so highly appreciative of you. And I'm telling this sincerely of what you mean and your work and so on and so forth.

I don't want to appear too dramatic. No, please don't. But so he's coming along and he does stuff way worse than me. And wait at least I can tell you about it. He does. He's like, what? Like unworthiness stuff. Oh, well, I think that, you know,

I think it's important to, I mean, I know ultimately there's no hierarchy, right? There's no hierarchy. Ultimately, everything's one all one. But in some way, there has to be a hierarchy. And there should be a, isn't in Zen, you are a Roshi. In Zen, Buddhism is systematically hierarchical in the way that it's structured, isn't it?

Absolutely. And I am definitely on the bottom of the pile. Oh, really? You don't seem like it. Oh, really? Well, what do you mean by that? I mean that when I've been listening to your wonderful talks, it feels like I am witnessing the thing

that they call Dharma transmission and the idea that you, I feel like you are in what they call a lineage or a spiritual bloodline. And when you were talking, I can, I feel like that's coming out of you. So wherever that is, as far as hierarchy goes, it feels like it feels to me as though I'm not just listening to you, but I'm listening to your teachers

and their teachers, and it's coming out and it creates a very psychedelic feeling in me and I think the people listening. So I guess that's it. Oh, good, good. Yeah, I do feel like I have a lot of men holding my back and it's about time some women stepped into the line or got dragged into the line.

It's kind of interesting. You look at my lineage chart and you see, oh, this is kind of fascinating. There's 81 guys behind me. So one of the things that you get a very strong feeling about is the gender bias and formal religion. And we're in a phase shift now and with that is a lot more lateralization.

Things are a little more equal. Right, yes, for sure. And I know that Zen, along with all other organized religious structures, mostly have been patriarchal up until this point. And there seems to be everything's kind of shifting in that way. But it seems like the thing that's coming out of you

is way outside of gender. It's way outside of everything. And I was wondering if I could get you to repeat that evening prayer that you did. No, yeah. Yeah, that's wonderful. So the prayer, if you will, it has two parts. And the first part of it are the four vows that

are the bodhisattva vows. And they're impossible assignments. And as such, then very liberating. And so the first one goes, creations are numberless, I vow to free them. And this is about everything. This is every ant who's suffering, every ahi and mahi mahi, if you will, like it's served for lunch,

but also every creation of the mind. And there's this vow that you take in every breath to liberate all beings, including the internal beings, which are the thoughts and the feelings and the sensations. So it's a very, for me, functional vow, because it points right to the big assignment, free, free. And then the second is delusions are inexhaustible. And boy, do we ever know that.

I vow to transform them. And what's interesting about that vow in the Chinese, actually, it goes, I vow to end them all. But as a woman, I'm a little bit more pragmatic. I want to, it's like my assignment is to kind of get in there and to sort of work with things. Oh, you changed it. Yeah, I know.

It's bad. I loved it. Yeah. No, I love that. That's so much better. Yes, no, that makes so much more sense, too. So much more pragmatic. Well, my own teacher, one of my own teachers,

but really my favorite is Glassman Roshi. And he really objected to that particular translation. It's not a translation. It's an adaptation. I personally think that these vows need to be made relevant. They're not like antiquarian vows. This is about now.

And so when we first used the word transform, he was kind of objective. And then we're persistent and consistent. And he actually has adopted it, which makes me feel slightly victorious. But never mind. Oh, yeah, Bernie Glassman Roshi. Oh, you said Bernie Glassman.

Oh, I didn't hear that. Bernie Glassman. Yeah, is he alive? He's alive so far, as alive as we are. Yeah, of course. And then the next one is very beautiful. Reality is boundless. And then you're invoked, I vow to perceive it.

And that's like the whole assignment. I mean, can you really see things clearly? And then the awakened way is unsurpassable. Then I vow to embody it. And that's like, now I'm not going to just think about it. I'm not going to just pray about it. I'm going to embody it. So one of the cool things about Zen

is how directed toward the body it is. It's understanding that our bodies are actually conditioning our mind. And then it's a two-way street, the mind conditions. The body, too. And the mind is embedded in the body. And the body carries the mind. But here, this is to like, I vow to walk the talk.

Right. And then there is the. Then there is what's called the evening gata. And that goes. And I don't always do it, because it's usually done at the end of the day. So the last thing that is transmitted to you at the end of the day are these words.

And they're scary as hell. And it is, life and death are of supreme importance. Time passes swiftly, and opportunity is lost. And then let us awaken, awaken. Do not squander your life. Ooh. It's great. You know, that's like the assignment.

And you say that every night. Every. Well, when we're in intensive retreat, and I say it on the night of retreats that I'm leading, because, you know, I think you can spend a little bit of time considering, we don't know when we're going to die. That's right. We could be young, or we could get to be really, really old.

But don't squander it. Use your life as a vehicle for awakening for all beings. So that's, you know, not everybody has that sense of urgency. And my sense of urgency might have come out of my, you know, childhood being really sick, and being born during the Second World War, and then being a young person in civil rights

and anti-war movement. But also in the middle of that urgency is a kind of stillness. So, you know, they're sort of working two sides of the street. You know, one side of the street has this sort of ferocious energy. And the other side is this deep quiet inside that comes from confidence that, you know,

everything is characterized by impermanence. Everything is transitory. And who knows what's going to happen the next minute? And why not be an ally to uncertainty? And you are truly walking the wall. Because at this moment, when I came here to record the podcast, and we came here to record the podcast, I could hear you in the other room.

And I'm not positive what you're talking about. I wasn't eavesdropping. But I know that you are right now in the midst of doing this retreat, which seems to me, even though I'm sure it's not for you, like it would be an incredibly stressful thing to every single day have to guide a group of people who've flown from all over the planet wanting something,

who are, and a lot of them are going through some heavy duty stuff. I imagine that we would feel like a very great weight to me. But on top of that, one ball that you're juggling, you're also doing everything you can to try to help the earthquake-stricken people in Nepal. So in your spare time, instead of doing what I would do, which would be to watch forensic files,

you're working nonstop to help people in a distant part of the world. Can you talk a little bit about that? You know, it's more fun than watching forensic files. Everything really sounds horrible, quite frankly. I just have this real connection with Nepal. And I've had it for decades. And the people are incredibly resilient.

And this earthquake is an enormous catastrophe. And each of us, if we just do a little bit, that's grace. I can't do more than a little bit. But in the last 24 hours, we managed to be part of a thinking, doing team that has put together hundreds of water filtration systems in a place where color was going to be a big threat, because there's no clean water.

In the Kathmandu Valley, it's hardly clean water there anyway. But right now, we saw all the systems down and out. And we're now looking at how can we get a half a million dollars worth of tarps into the outlying areas. And so it's just my assistant, Nova, calls it parallel processing. You know, it's a whole bunch of people feeling this and thinking together, and strategizing,

and one coming up with an idea, and another one making that idea a little bit better, and a third one seeing the solution, and then us collaborating. And I think it's a fantastic process. And one of the things that's really helping this whole process in Nepal is our social platforms. I mean, more information has gone down on Facebook than on CNN with regards to what is really happening.

I can't get any emails going between here in Nepal, or very, very few. But in terms of Facebook messaging, wow. My Facebook message hopper is just flooded with messages of, you know, this is needed, that's needed, this is how we do it, and so forth. So it's, and a tremendous amount of information is being posted at this point by people in Nepal.

Unfortunately, I have a lot of friends in Nepal on my Facebook page. So, you know, they're posting, in some cases, minute by minute, what's happening. Can you talk a little bit about what the situation on the ground is like over there so that people listening can understand just how severe the situation is in case,

because amazingly, some people that I've spoken with are not even aware that an earthquake has happened weirdly. Well, they should, you know, they should, you know, get a little behind the program. It's possible. My gosh. Well, let me say one of the really cool things that's happening.

There's a big gap between the aid that the government, the Nepali government is really obligated to provide and what's going down on the ground. And so what's happening is young people are self-organizing and they're, you know, getting their trucks and they're buying rice with what, you know, money they have and they're delivering rice and tarps and fresh water out to outlying villages.

And what I really love is that what you're seeing, you're also seeing frustration and there've been some, you know, protest events and things like that. But what I really am seeing is the heart of Nepali people. There's an immense resilience in that country. And that resilience has, you know, been in the face of 12 years of civil war, no infrastructure that's any good in that country or very little

that's any good. And yet the people just have some kind of directness and joy and lack of neurosis. And I really go every year to Nepal as a kind of psychological cure from Western culture. I mean, you know, we go with our nomads clinic, which is organized through UPIA Zen Center and I've been doing it since 1980,

but it's just incredibly beneficial for Westerners to be with people who are so, you know, unbelievably powerful something like this, which is tragic, which is hyper-traumatic, stressful, is something that they will get past and they'll rebuild. What I feel we have to do right now is take care of kind of on the ground practical things like water filtration and tarps

because monsoon looks like it's coming early. And that's just, it's a mess. Hundreds of thousands of homes have been completely demolished in this earthquake. So, you know, we have a lot of... Hundreds of thousands. Right. You know, these are mud and stone homes.

But these are homes. They're homes. Yeah. And that's the thing, you know, that when those, you know, when I think about, because it's so, it really is, the news can accidentally turn you into a sociopath because the numbers are so big,

when you hear possibly 5,000, maybe 10,000 people have died, you're, you have, it's hard to have a real reaction to that number because you only know, how many people do you know in your life? How many people do you know? You know, there's this thing, Dunbar's number, have you ever heard of that? Dunbar's number is the maximum number of social connections

a person can theoretically have in their mind. And it's... 150. That's it. 150. I remember now. 150. What number?

150. So I don't think I know 150 people. And maybe I, I mean, I know many, many people, but how many people do you know that you talk with on the phone? It's what, 30, 20? And so then when you think, oh, 10,000. For you, it's different.

No, for you, Duncan, I think it's different, frankly. And I think also for you, Ragu, you guys are, you know, working the public arena in Incredibus. I just mean, when you hear, so when you hear 10,000 people, you're hearing about 10,000 mini-apocalypse that have happened. You're hearing about holes in families

that will never be healed. Brothers and sisters have just gone. And not only are you left without, your home is crumbled and you have nothing, but possibly your entire family is gone. So when you consider that that's the reality of the situation over there, that fills you with a kind of feeling

that you get when you do the first vow, which is, well, I can't do a thing. It's just too much to bear. I'm not going to deal with this at all. That's for, I think a lot of people feel like that. And then people like you are like, no, we're getting them tarps. We'll just get them tarps.

We'll get them water filters and tarps. I think that's the coolest thing ever. You know, futility is a kind of stupid thing, but a lot of people suffer from it. And, you know, I actually am not in the favor, in favor of futility, but there's something more. And that is that those of us who've been to Nepal often return again and again, why?

Because the people have a kind of special spirit which exists in few places in the world. And I think that's what we're seeing in the midst of tragedy, what you're seeing is dignity, determination and love. And that's, you know, you're drawn into that. You're not drawn into despair. You're drawn, you're inspired.

And I think that's why there's been such an extraordinary response at the sort of public in general level to what's happening in Nepal. Because so many of us have been over there, even if only one time you still have the same feeling. This is one of those treasures in the world, not just the architectural and historical treasure. It's the treasure of the Nepali heart.

And then you see, you know, all of this work that's going on as it will become more and more apparent through time at the sort of grassroots level. Instead of the grassroots level just sort of caving, giving up, drying up, the grassroots level is really energized by service. And what I'm seeing is the younger generation

really stepping into the gap. And I love it. It's, well, you know, when you were talking this morning about Facebook and what's happening through Facebook, I was wondering if you were familiar with Kurzweil at all, with Ray Kurzweil and that concept of the accelerating returns and how technology has the potential not just

for to destroy the planet, which a lot of people are worried about, but also to heal things in a way that has never been possible before. Yeah, I completely agree. I think Ray Kurzweil has fantastic ideas. And I think that Nepal is a very interesting and moving example of how social media is actually as has in other situations, social media is providing the platform for

people to find each other, but also find themselves. I want to switch gears. OK. We're at this retreat. And you just told that lovely coin, that lovely story. There's two of them in the first one around the tree. Would you mind telling that again? And then to the podcast audience.

Before that story, I'm sorry, can I please get, just could you say the link really quick? If I don't mean to turn this into some kind of telethon or something, but it is imminent what's happening. And if you could just say that link really quick, so that if people want to chip in to help you get some parts over there. So if you can, if you will, I would really appreciate it.

It's www.upiah.org. And you'll see the banner. And there's a photograph of me, a child who's been badly burned, but who's been bandaged by clinicians that are nomads clinic. And you'll see a link immediately to be able to donate to the earthquake relief fund. And up is UP.

UPAYA. .com. .org. .org. .org. www.upaya.org. I'll have links in my website. And you'll have links and they'll be on

Mind Pud Network too. Thanks. Thanks guys. Thank you. Tell us. Well, you know, this is called Kyoge's Man in a Tree. And I'm particularly fond of this koan because koans are these public cases, these little zen stories that are

about the nature of our mind and not just the nature of mine, but the nature of one's mind in both the sense of emptiness and the relative aspect. And what is so wonderful for me about this koan is, you know, Western culture, we're so damn solution oriented. We've got an answer for every question. We've got a solution for every problem. And can you basically hang out and not knowing?

So I already gave you, you know, the big secret right there. And I had to really smile yesterday because, you know, these are audience, the audience here in Ram Dass is retreat. It's all love, serve, remember, and serve is all solution oriented. And so everybody had a good idea, but it wasn't the

right one. But never mind. So it goes like this. There's a man hanging in a tree by his teeth being wrapped around a branch. His feet can't touch the tree. His hands can't touch the tree. He's just hanging there.

Underneath him walks another man, and that man said, hey, why does Bodhidharma come from the West? You could say why does Bob Ram Dass come from the West, but it's Bodhidharma. Now, if the man opens his mouth to answer, he falls to his death. But if he doesn't open his mouth to say anything, he doesn't help the other guy.

End of case, you know? It's infuriating. It is infuriating. It's infuriating. And it's not just that you're teaching in the best way possible, it creates this very specific feeling that drives you crazy. And do you know what I mean?

And I'm going to have to think. Good. I thought I was driving you sane. I think so. But it's that you're saying here, this is an answer-less thing, and you can let your mind whirl around all you want, but you're not going to find a solution. But then the first day you were talking about how,

we're always wanting to know what's going to happen next. And you called it radical insecurity. I felt like when you're at the chiropractor, when you said that, and someone cracks your back, when you said that. Because that feeling of insecurity, I try to escape from that. I would say 80% of my calories are being burnt, trying to escape that feeling.

Well, that's a very low percentage, considering the average is much higher. Just shows you how awake you are. All right. But can you talk a little bit about this? This radical insecurity, how that feeling of I don't know what's going to happen, and I'm losing it, is actually something perhaps not to be avoided?

Well, I think the earthquake in Nepal is a perfect example. There are all kinds of predictions that an earthquake was going to happen, but they didn't know what was going to happen noon last Saturday. You just don't know, and your life could end in a moment. But my first send teacher was this amazing and very funny Korean named Sung-Sang, Sung-Sang Sun-Sanim. And Sun-Sanim used to say things like, only keep don't

know mind. You know, only keep don't know mind. And I actually thought it was like a Chinese fortune cookie. That was kind of, well, that's kind of stupid, except that here it is 40 years later. And I'm still saying it, and I'm kind of beginning to resonate with what he means. And that is this mind that is Sasuke Roshi called

a beginner's mind. And it's that mind that is really fresh. It's not caught in hyper-conceptuality. It's not seeking solutions. It's super in the be here now-ness of it. And that's just so incredibly powerful. It's not to say that the past isn't in the present. And the future isn't right here.

But it's also to have this kind of radiance of this is what is right now. And any place other than where we are right in this now, which includes the past and the future, will be also shaded or shadowed by fear. So, you know, that's a really. So my thing is working with dying people and psychedelics and then years ago and the kind of work

that I've done in the prison system and then just, you know, working as his end teacher, you're always in the state of radical uncertainty. You never know what's going to happen with any student, anything. I kind of love to say, you know, open up to get the students talking because that's when I'm kind of most alive.

I feel like, wow, that's really interesting. Gee, that was a really good point. And that was so stupid, you know. But those are just opinions. But it is this sense of not knowing what Bernie Glassman Roshi talks about, not knowing. And there's a wonderful line from Nicole on that goes, not knowing is most intimate.

I mean, our no mind, our knowing mind separates us from each other in this moment. So it's a really, I think it's a really cool thing. I want to get back to the colon, though. Oh, I didn't know you had left it. Oh, I have never left it. I'll care about you. Well, I'm going to represent the love and lighters.

Trump or Rinpoche used to call us love and lighters. And you still do. And I'm not even Jewish, and I can say oy. Yeah. So representing the love and lighters from that Coan thing, right? All right, you tell me. OK, so this is completely, and it's

are typically that I, when you said, right? OK, now, what is it that you experience in this colon? What what can you identify your initial thing, right? Whatever you said. You ready? I'm listening. I'm all ears. Christ.

OK, what do you mean? He that there is nothing else but to give yourself completely up under any circumstances. So what would that look like? So that would be him letting go, I guess, of the tree, right? I know. OK, now I need you to dissect it. I'm not going to dissect it.

That's your trip. I have no idea. They have some kind of idea about it. But that's an interesting idea. You know, Christ didn't exactly let go of the tree. He was nailed on to it. So excuse me. He probably wouldn't wish he could have.

No, that's the point. He let himself be nailed to the tree, right? He let that happen. Weren't you brought up Christian, Roshi? I mean. Don't blame me for something I couldn't avoid. OK, no. OK, honestly.

And then take it further that the whole thing for us, Christ and Hanuman, the same energy of complete, utter devotion to service. You know, this day I shared a perspective which was a little bit different. And it's kind of interesting because the ego can get involved in devotion. There's the self and there's the other.

There's the object of devotion. And then you're all this wonderful kind of Christ energy or Hanuman energy or Bodhisattva madly running around saving all sentient beings from suffering. But there's a very deep image in Zen that I think is kind of interesting. And that is instead of Hanuman, right, that feeling, it's actually of a wooden puppet.

And what is pulling the strings of the puppet, suffering. And so there's no self there. There's no idea there. There's not even will or desire. So at the very deepest level, there's no self to be devoted. There's no nothing to be devoted to. You're just responding seamlessly to the world of suffering as it is without any reference.

And that's a really interesting image, I feel. I mean, it's kind of when I find myself involved in self-conscious altruism instead of altruism, which is principled and healthy and where there's really no self and other. Even though the word altruism presumes other, but somehow this self-other distinction drops away. Then there's no way I can be tired.

Just this I'm responding to, that I'm responding to. I'm in this seamless relationship with the world as it is, including the world of suffering and the world of joy. So the wood puppet's really kind of an interesting. But people don't like it because it's not the monkey god. It's like, no way. It's not the beautiful long-haired blue-eyed Christ.

And it's also not the monkey god. It's a wooden puppet, which is a kind of dead thing. And that deadness is an example. There's no devotion. There's no not devotion. It's an example of fundamental unconditional equanimity. It's just that openness to things as they are. But I love the love stuff.

I mean, don't let me discourage anybody from devotion or love. See, there's those of us that we have no chance at all. We don't have the discipline. We can't sit with our back straight and our front soft very well. Oh, please, Raku. This is amazing.

You know what I feel like? I feel like I'm watching a very sweet parent telling their child that there's no Santa Claus. And then being like, but it's OK if you still want to believe in Santa Claus. It's just not real. And that's what I love about Buddhism is because it does because here's some, even though I wait,

wait, before you get into this, I have been now the children. That what Roshi is talking about, I experienced in another being a complete, absolute emptiness of anything. And as Rob does said today, when I met Maharanjanin Karolibaba, I saw him as something for humans to look to as a possibility to be. So.

See, I think Neem Karolibaba is more like a Buddhist or a Buddha than almost any other of the spiritual teachers that I've read about, heard about, or encountered who are not Buddhist per se. I mean, you know, he wasn't looking for devotion. Now, there were tons of people attracting massive amounts of it. People were going to transcend his presence and people have created a whole religious movement out of him.

But actually go that far religious movement. Well, I don't know. I think, you know, I think R.D. is head of the club. He's the clubmeister. But, you know, he wasn't looking to do that. There was no self in there, you know, trying to magnetize people to do anything. You know, he's as far as I could tell from just listening

to you guys, mostly guys, some women. But in listening to you talk over these years is this was a very empty dude. Yeah. And in that you did a workshop some time ago with Frank Dostososky and Brahmedos, and he went into that space. And you commented on it afterwards, because in that space of completely feeling

that total love that he experienced back then, in this moment, he said he's just so empty, so empty. And that was the essence. And do you know that one day, Krishna Das and I went to see Maharaj and a lot of stuff happened. I won't get into it because it's a long story. But at one point, Krishna Das had a book. He'd keep stuff in the diary.

He had it with him. And in it, he had written some of the Mahamudra. He just wrote some of the verses down. And then next page, he had a picture of Maharaj. It was that kind of a thing. Maharaj, he says, show me that. He takes the book and he had to translate it. Teak, he went right to the Mahamudra,

song of the Mahamudra. He flipped the page over and he saw a picture of himself that Krishna Das had put in. He just, he said, who's that? He was always playing with little kids. You, Maharaj, nay, Buddha. More than once did he do that. And not only that, he's, I mean, this isn't that.

He meant he was Buddha, but it was a complete. You're expressing, yeah, no, that's not. Because you can't hear it for the podcast, but you're expressing some skepticism in regards to that claim. No, I mean, I- No, it wasn't a claim that he was a living Buddha. It was absolutely taking us, what you're saying,

exactly beyond anything of him being Hindu or only giving Hindu teachings. Of course, he talked about Christ. Buddha just means awake. Yeah, right. Just, you know, he's saying, I'm awake. That's what the Buddha said, by the way. I'm awake.

But he's just saying awake and not the historical Buddha. And we don't want, you know, and I think that's the, that's freedom. And I feel like, you know, in his sort of sleepy way, because, you know, I always see Neem Kohli Babi's, you know, doing sort of supine. And there he's got his little Linus blanket. And, you know, he's there with his little sleeping, you know,

and it's a, and, but he's actually in the paradox. He's like super awake. Right, that's exactly what it was exactly, being in that presence. But it's, you know, he's so let go. It's like he was in the cradle and totally in beginner's mind. But, you know, it's the empty feeling. That's how I always, you know, I'd look at his eyes

and I realized, you know, the thing that I feel, even looking at Neem Kohli Babi's picture is, I feel that he sees who I really am, which is not a devotee. That he's perceiving my emptiness from his emptiness. All right, well, that's what it all is in terms of reflection of these beings too. So I look at, you know, devotion in a certain way

as a beautiful intermediate stage, you know, that evocation needs an object of love. And that evocation, the feeling of evocation of other, you know, allows love to flow, but then as love matures, then in a way it empties out completely into the boundless. But maybe you've done another billion lives or something. You're already at that doorstep.

I don't think so. It is interesting though that, because I, you know, the last podcast we did with Ram Dass, it was so funny to me because you, you both seem to really disagree on this point. And you both seem to disagree, even though there's the way that you disagree is very respectful and very open-minded.

I don't disagree anything that you just said at all. I'm not trying to stir anything up here, but it does feel like when you say an intermediary stage. So you have the bhakti. You have the object, you know, this is some form of bhakti. Here is the object that you love. Here is the lover. You have these two things.

There is a duality, there is a duality here. And with what you seem to be talking about, and I only know it from reading books and maybe a couple of acid trips, is this idea of, well, more than a couple of acid trips, but I've had more, but a couple of good ones. What you're talking, what this thing that you're pointing to

is just this one thing. And you can't have in this one thing an object of devotion. And you can't have the moment that that happens, the one thing is now two things. And then the two things become a trillion things. And the trillion things become a trillion things. And the whole thing breaks apart. So when you say intermediary,

it feels like you're saying, or intermediate. Intermediate. Yeah. At some point that has to go. But I also, you know, I can disagree with myself, which I enjoy doing. And that is that this experience of

what Sukhni Mubashayik calls juicy love is incredibly healing. You know, it's just, it's not what he calls greasy love. You know, this kind of syrupy, sappy thing. It's more greasy, greasy love. Greasy love. Yeah, this is juicy love. And that, you know, the trap, of course,

of emptiness or the trap of boundlessness is just being so spaced out that nothing matters. And that it's really important to have both. You know, I mean, I think juicy love is really important. I think it's incredibly healing. I think that also it takes you into this experience of absolute connection.

I think having a yidam, having an object of devotion, which actually reflects your own Buddha nature back to you is a fantastic thing. It's a upaya. It's a device to point to something that is beyond language, beyond words. So you've contradicted yourself. Yeah, I enjoy that.

Not really, but. Not really. And because you also say, I come to every winter, I come to see Ramdots for a heart transplant. You're not supposed to say that in public. Really? I don't, we don't. Of course, Roshi is perfectly fine, everybody.

This is no reflection on that. I know I wrote a friend of mine who's had actually some cardiac problems. I said, you know, dear so-and-so, I'm here in Maui having a heart transplant. And he wrote back in about a half a second, are you okay? What's going on?

No, it's more, you know, it's, it has to do for me with metta, loving kindness, you know, hanging out with people where there's a lot of joy, where there's a lot of acceptance, where there's trust is very wonderful.

It's like nourishing the human psyche. Now, Arti would call it soul. We won't get into that discussion, please. But anyway. We should, we should. I mean, I've been meaning to ask you this for a long time. No, no, no.

Remember that podcast where Ramdots, because Ramdots says this is the funniest thing ever and your interaction with the way you two interact is so fun to watch. But Ramdots said, this is, remember he said, this is my fantasy. You know, in the midst of this, because we were talking about the soul

and I could see, you know, it's easy to see what you think as far as that goes. And he's like, well, that's my fantasy. And you go, finally, after all these years, I get you to admit it. And I think it's cool. I think it's, I don't think you have to tiptoe around the fact that maybe there isn't a soul.

And I think that the idea that there is a soul or whatever that is, is sometimes I like that idea and I enjoy the idea. But sometimes I think this is a teddy bear. This is an imaginary friend. This is like my pacifier when I was a kid. You know what, look, I'm being serious though. No, no, we're being serious.

Oh, we are? Yeah. I don't think this, he has that as a nomenclature soul. But ultimately, I don't think he thinks it's any different than Buddha mind. So, you know, I have a different idea, but it's just another idea. I actually wrote about it in this book I wrote years ago

called The Fruitful Darkness. And for me, the principle of soul, and this really comes out of the fact that I'm from the South. And was, you know, fortunately able to be nourished by people who are not from my immediate community. And when people in this other community that I cherished would talk about soul, they weren't talking

about some kind of monad that's sitting inside of you, a little, you know, happy homunculus, if you will. Happy what? A happy homunculus, you know, your little soul that's gonna go tripping out of your whatever. But it has to do with some kind of connectivity with your, you know, your deep heart. So when you say, my God, that person's got soul,

you know, you know what they're talking about, because you can look in that person's eyes and you can see right to their essence. So that's what I feel is, you know, really important. That kind of, you know, immediate powerful transparency, which is characterized also by love. Right, right, because who knows what soul is and who knows what Buddha-mind is.

I'm so glad you're saying this, Raghu, you know. I've had this, you know, he publicly humiliated me so many times, you know, he says, well, you know, Jones, you know, Joe Jones, you know, and then he smiles, he flashes those teeth at me, you know, those kind of that dragon mouth and I'm like, thanks a lot. You know, I'm gonna look like a bad person if we continue this conversation.

He says soul and then he goes like this. Oh, he knows that we like to tease each other, mercilessly, we don't know anything. Right. That's the bottom line. That's it. Not knowing is most intimate. And in the podcast that, when you first met Roshi

at that retreat a couple of years ago, and then we sat around the table and there was a beautiful reference which was making friends with the mystery from Roshi. And that has stuck with me. And I think that that is so essential for us to be able to make friends with the mystery. What a relief.

It's such a burden to have to worry your mind over the idea that God is a monkey or that God is some beautiful hippie with washboard abs or that God is any, it's really kind of a bummer. You know what, it's a bit of a bummer. If it really boils down to it or that's it, really God's got washboard abs and that's it, that's it. It's such more of a relief if it's something

you have no idea what it is. There's something much more exciting about that, isn't it? The question mark is a wonderful thing to worship. So this is the essence of Kylgan's man in a tree back to the koan. Exactly. How can you just hang there in not knowing? How can you really be a friend to uncertainty?

Why do you always seek a solution as a reference point? So it's such a, I mean, I've actually shared that koan with a number of different people in various teachings. And everybody goes for the solution because they need some kind of safe toehold. They need a place to kind of put their flag, but actually it's about groundlessness. It's your feet can't really land on anything.

And I like it a lot. Oh, that's so good. It's wonderful. We are at 49 minutes. Oh, okay. So this is it. It's over her Roshi's commitment. Thank you so much for this.

Thank you. We have to say, please do go to opiah.org and it is a way to directly get, I even said to Roshi, because my other hat is the love server member foundation. And I said to Roshi, we want to help as well, but we need you to make sure she would vet where that this money,

how it would go through the funnel that would go directly to the people. So that is happening, everybody. That is happening. So please do go. And also, Roshi, the last book that you just mentioned, is it still available? Oh yeah, Grove Press, you know,

it was published first by Harper's and then I think it went somewhere else. But anyway, Grove Press has it out there and it's still going and what is it? It's now 25 years old. I won't tell anybody that that's really the number. It's called the fruitful darkness. Because that's not something I was aware of.

That's why I personally- Yeah, it's not in the bookstore. It actually, I had more fun, more joy writing that book. Oh really? Yeah, yeah. So it's, yeah, you can get it on Amazon Kindle or paperback, so. The fruitful?

The fruitful darkness. All links are gonna be at dunkintrustle.com and mindpodnetwork.com, yes. Thank you gentlemen, it was a pleasure. Bye bye. Bye. Starting this month, you can take advantage of great savings throughout the year.

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