Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Krishna Das LIVE from the Bell House

Episode Date: March 31, 2017

Dive into the mystical waters of sacred-chanting with world renowned Kirtan Wallah Krishna Das.

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Ticket links are at DunkinTrussell.com. All right, my sweet friends, that's it. Let's dive right into this podcast. Today's guest needs no introduction, and yet I'll give him one. He is at Kirtan Walla. He sat at the feet of Neem Karoli Baba. He sings Kirtans at the Ram Das retreat when I go to it. And he is, you're about to find out just how incredible a human being this person is. If you live in New York and you want to go see him live, he's going to be at the benefit for the Tibetan home of hope in Terry Town on April 6th. And you can find music, spoken word podcasts, readings, videos, and his tour schedule by going to krishnadas.com. Now, everybody, please welcome to the DunkinTrussell Family Hour podcast, Krishnadas.

Hello, everyone. It is I, DunkinTrussell, and you are listening to the DunkinTrussell Family Hour podcast being recorded live at the Bell House in Brooklyn. So this is a super special night for me, a very intense night for me. I want to talk a little bit about why I say Hari Krishna a lot in the podcast. I say it at the end of the podcast. I just throw it out there sometimes. I think some people know why I think some people think that I am doing that sarcastically or just because it sounds funny or it's a dumb thing to say. But the reason I like to say Hari Krishna is because I chant Hari Krishna. It's the one of it's when I do meditate, which is very rare these days. It's the type of meditation that I like to do. I like to chant. There's

something about it that is very special to me. And that all started for me. God, in between high school and college, my brother got into the Hari Krishnas. And this was really cool to me because it fucking horrified my mom. Like she's like, oh no, your brother is going to get into a cult. And she had a friend of hers whose kid got into the Hari Krishnas and became a full devotee. And he was just gone. He was gone, shaved his head, went to the Grateful Dead parking lots, and she was positive. She was positive that was going to happen to Jeff. And I was excited that that was going to happen to Jeff because it's like, cool, my brother's a Hari Krishna. And so I went to visit him at the Hari Krishna Temple in Laguna Beach, California, which is where

he had been hanging out. And the reason he was hanging out there is because he was in the North Ridge earthquake and his apartment got knocked off its foundation or something. And that's a cool story that he tells about the North Ridge earthquake, which is that he woke up in the middle of the night with his cat mid-air shitting, like mid-air like shit just blasting out of the cat's asshole in the middle of the night or whenever the quake hit. But my brother was able to apply for emergency federal funds and the government, they were like, yeah, we're going to pay for you to have an apartment for a year. He got a years-free rent somehow, moved to Laguna Beach, bought a VW van and just became the quintessential hippie. And he started going to the Hari Krishna temples to eat. And I

remember he was talking about it and saying, there's something about it. You know, it's really beautiful there. And they ring little bells over the food. I don't know what they're fucking doing. This is in the beginning. But then like the more he started hanging out there, the more he began to change. And he began to change for the better. You know, there's a lot of bad things that have happened with all organized religions, including the Hari Krishna's. That's Vaishnaiva Bhakti Yoga is what that form of religion is. But there's a lot of good things that have happened with them too. And one of the good things that happened is my brother started softening in this way that was really, for me, someone who grew up with him, it was just a really fascinating

transformation and a beautiful thing to watch. So I flew out to Laguna Beach. He came to get me at the airport. He had this man, he was really into it at the time, he had this flower that he gave me. And he's like, this is from the deities. I'm like, wow, dude, you're gone. You're gone, man. You're gone. The deities, what? And like, so we, I remember this is the first time I'd ever really like been inside of a temple and he took me into the temple at night and one of the devotees was scrubbing the floor and, you know, there's a, there's a smell. There's a smell. There's something really beautiful about temples. And then the next day he was taking Bhagavad Gita lessons. And I remember, you know, in my mind, I am starting to think like Jesus Christ, this is a real fucking

cult. And we, I went with him to take Bhagavad Gita classes and I was sitting with him and the teacher looked at me. And what's really interesting about these people is people who have been spending a life in spiritual practices, they're really good at reading you. And he looked at me and he got this big, funny smile on his face and he's like, looks like little brothers getting into the cult. It was so funny because he realized this is actually not that. And then I remember, I'll never forget this, he opened up the Bhagavad Gita, lit some incense and he sang this prayer that they read before they, they, they do Bhagavad Gita classes. And I ended up like memorizing this prayer. And I would say it on stage sometimes, like when I was in the deep South, because it would

make people like do like the cross in the air and like walk out. But the prayer is very beautiful. And it goes, as I recall, it goes something like I can't remember the rest of it, but it was something very beautiful. Oh, cool. You guys are so cool. And hearing that with the, you know, in the morning with the like incense smoke going up into the air and then suddenly he starts reading from this ancient book, the Bhagavad Gita, it was beautiful. And so that morning, my brother had given me what are what are called japa beads, which is, it's the beads that you chant on. There's 108 of them. And on every bead you chant the Hare Krishna Mahamantra, which is Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Hare Rama,

Hare Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare. And I climbed up on the top of my brother's free government apartment and I was sitting there and I'm like, I'm going to try chanting this, you know, I want to see what happens. So I'm chanting Hare Krishna, Hare Krishna, Krishna Krishna, Hare Hare, Rama Rama, Rama Rama, Hare Hare and chanting and chanting. And then I, it's the strangest thing. I remember it like it was yesterday. It's like my brain took a flash bulb picture of that moment as though to say, this is what you should do. You should do this. This is the right thing for you to do. And ever since then, that's what I do. I chant Hare Krishna. I chant it sometimes when I'm walking. I chant it when I'm cleaning. I chant it when I'm bored. I chant it when I'm

trying to be spiritual. Sometimes I chant it when I'm trying to make sure my girlfriend knows I'm spiritual, you know, to be a dick. Listen to me chant. It's so embarrassing. But, but I chant, I chant it sometimes. And the reason and I, it's very special to me is because here with us tonight is someone who deeply understands what chanting really is. With us tonight is a person who sat at the feet of Neem Karoli Baba with Ram Das and who has spent his life singing these mantras with groups of people all over the world. He has over, I think he has 14 albums and he actually sang Kirtan at the 2013 Grammys. Like, how does that happen? No, it's a very strange thing to think that some deep hippie from the sixties goes to India and hangs out with

that guy and then comes back to the United States and ends up sitting in a flannel at the Grammy Awards, singing the names of God to the planet. To me, that's miraculous and beautiful and I'm very grateful because he has agreed to, before we do the interview, he's going to come out and do a Kirtan with you guys if you're into it. Are you into it? Okay, awesome, cool. And he's accompanied by the wonderful Nina Rao. Everybody, please a giant round of applause for Krishna Das and Nina Rao. Well, I was going to sing something else, but you just gave such an intro to Heart of Krishna, I don't think we can avoid it. So are you ready to sing the only mantra in the world with a bad rap, bad reputation? Heart of Krishna is singing all over the world and in India, it's one of the most known mantras.

These are what's called the names of God and they say by constant repetition of these names, we can invoke the deepest place within us in our own being because in the East, in Eastern religion, they believe that what we call God lives within us as our own true nature, who we really are underneath our thoughts, deeper than our emotions, what's in there, the presence within us. So here's how it works. I sing a line and then you all sing something that sounds like something I might have sung sometime. Heart of Krishna is singing all over the world and in India, it's one of the most famous mantras Heart of Krishna is singing all over the world

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Heart of Krishna is singing all over the world Yeah, well I had these friends, I was living in upstate New York with these Jungian acid head mountain climbers. They were absolutely insane, the name of the group was the Bulgarians. One of them was a psychology professor and had heard about Richard Alpert who had got kicked out of Harvard with Timothy Leary. Richard Alpert went to India and met Maharaj and Maharaj named him Ram Das and he came back to America and that's when I met him. What did they think of that? What did the Bulgarians think? Were they skeptical? No, no, they loved it. So I was living on this farm upstate New York and they said, hey we heard about Richard Alpert. He came back from India and we're going to go up and see him, do you want to go?

I said nah, I don't care about any American yogis. Right. Terrible, right? So they went off and they were supposed to come back like... Racist actually. Racist. Thank you, I appreciate that. Absolutely. So they go off and they were supposed to come back a couple of days, they didn't come back for three or four days.

And I'll never forget, I just came out of the goat shed, we had two goats, I had just finished milking them. One goat was Madame Blavatsky and the other was Alice Bailey. Wow, so cool. And I came out of the goat shed and I was holding the pail of milk and I saw their old beat up Jaguar sedan come cut through the field up to the house. And the guy gets out of the car and he turns around and he looks at me like... And it was light shooting out of him and I just said right down the directions I'm leaving right away. And I did, I drove through the night and I got there in the morning and that's what happened. But I guess I want to know the specifics of pulling up to somebody's house.

Did you knock on the door or how do you... Well, it was a little strange. First of all, my car had a hole in the muffler so by the time I got there I was almost deaf, you know, all night long. An old Volvo. And I pulled into the driveway and I turned the car off and there's snow everywhere, it's beautiful. It was totally silent, right? And as soon as I turned the car off and got hit with that silence, I felt this little thing and right in the center of my chest I got... What was that?

This is weird, what was that, right? All right, I better go into the house. So I walked up the driveway, I knocked on the door and this guy with a big beard opens the door like this and he goes... And he points up the stairway, he goes... And I thought, oh shit, I got to get out of here, you know. So you walked up the stairs. I walked up the stairs into this room and then that's what happened. And he was just sitting there?

He was just sitting there and... How many other people were there? No, he was alone. That's so weird, man. That, I think, is one of the big signs of an awakened being. An awakened being is just like, yeah, let anybody come up to my room, I don't care. Yeah. It's true, I never thought of it that way but...

Praise the Lord, right? Praise the Lord. And so this moment, so you walk into this room and what is Ram Dass doing? He's just sitting there quietly, I think he had his eyes closed even, you know. And I just stopped at the top of the stairs and I just had this feeling, I was overcome with this incredible feeling that I'm home, you know. This is it. It was amazing and... Of course.

Did you cry? No. I like that you act so tough right now. Because at the retreats, you will tear up all the time talking about... I'm sorry to bust you, but... This is Brooklyn, you don't cry in Brooklyn. I live in Brooklyn. So you meet Ram Dass and this begins your journey to India.

It did, yeah. I got so turned on by that day up there, so I wanted to hang out with him as much as I could. And then after that he came down to New York for two weeks every day, six days a week at the Sculpture Studio. He was just singing and talking. I was driving a school bus at the time. I dropped the bus off and shoot down to the city. And, you know, I got to know him a little bit and that summer he invited me to live up on his father's place. He had this estate and I was going to be like the ground.

Oh, I think it's... We lost the mic. We lost the mic. Here. You mind it now. What? Well, they suck because they need to fix the mics. Here, try that.

I've planned this. Welcome to the podcast, everybody. Where was I? Yeah, so that summer he invited me to come up there and then just like you said, he couldn't figure out why he shouldn't invite anyone who wanted to come up there. So by the end of the summer, there were like 60 people camping out on the property and the woods and everything. And we had... We were having Sufi dancing and meditation and he would...

On the weekends, he would give a talk and hundreds of people will come from all around and he would give a talk and then they'd go away. And it was wild. It was a beautiful scene. Very beautiful. Did you... I'm just thinking of my own neurotic self. And going into a guy's room... I don't mean to go back to that moment.

That was later. Oh, cool. It's back. But that... I guess you, Ramdas and the satsang that was with Neem Karoli Baba, you were all so out of your minds. Like when I think about the idea of like walking into a person's room, who I just had vaguely heard about... It was the 60s.

It was different. It wasn't really different. Why was it... And I really mean... Because we'd all blown our brains out on acid and we knew... I've blown my brain out on acid. I don't go in people's houses. That was later.

The people in the houses haven't blown their names out on acid. Oh, there you go. I get it. Yeah. But at some point during this, there must have been some interior monologue where you're saying to yourself, this is fucked up. Like this is so beyond the pale, what I'm doing here.

Have I gone insane? Is this a nervous breakdown? Am I being inducted into a cult? What is happening to me? I've been pulled into the gravity of this Harvard Apostate professor who found a guru. Didn't you feel a little like you were kind of going nuts? Actually, no.

Really, the feeling was so strong that we had found home base. I don't know how to explain it. It made everything else... It made even your own bullshit pale. You didn't even believe your own stuff anymore. This was such a deep feeling of we found something real in this world that was just...

Who would have expected that? None of us have ever doubted that moment. All these years. Because it wasn't something that we got from the outside. It's happened inside. You can't doubt your own deepest feelings. You can doubt your head of thinking about them. But the feeling is still there.

It took a lot of years and a lot of time and commitment to practice and commitment to trying to find a way to live a good life in this crazy world to deepen that and continue our practice even today. It's still practice. But there's never been any doubt that that is real. And the rest of this is just relatively real.

Here you are. You found this real thing which a lot of us never find. We hear about people like you finding it but a lot of us never really find that thing. You found it. You're at Ram Das' estate. You don't even know that you are becoming part of history at least of a subculture. At what point did you make the decision

to head over to India to go and find your guru? Well, after about a year and a half or so traveling around the states with Ram Das we did a retreat at the Lama Foundation up in Taos for the winter. And here and there I just recognized that what I thought was Ram Das was really what was coming through him. And then I realized I have to go, I have to find what that is.

And of course he was always talking about Maharaj. But he never... When Ram Das had to come back to America Maharaj said, okay, don't talk about me. Don't talk about me. So the only thing he did when he got back here was talk about me. He couldn't not talk about me.

You know how you were when you just fell in love? Your friends get bored very quickly. Because all you can do is talk about it. So it was like that. I love this story and I've always wondered about this. Did he seriously mean it when he said to Ram Das don't talk about me or was it a light hearted thing? Or did he really mean I don't want people to find me.

I don't want to deal with it. He meant it. And in fact... So the story is so when I said to Ram Das, I'm going to India. I'm going to find Maharaj. He said, well, I can't tell you where he is and I can't tell you his name.

And I said, okay, I'm going anyway. Who knew, right? So he said, okay, wait, what I can do is I'll give you my friend's address up in the mountains in Nanital and you write to him. He's a close devotee of Maharaj. So I wrote this letter and I get a letter back in a few weeks saying, wonderful to hear from you, blah, blah, blah.

Maharaj is not here at this time in the hills, in the mountains. But when he comes back, I'll write to you. I'll see him and I'll write to you. Great. So about a month later, I got a letter back. Where were you? I'm sorry.

I was in California in Big Sur. Okay, gotcha. Recovering from poison oak. Ugh, it's horrible. What do you mean? There's this poison oak all around in the mountains there and we didn't know. So we just running through the mountains.

Oh, God. It was unbelievable. So you're festering with boils. It's just horrible, you know. I'm lying there in this guy's house up there in the mountains and I get this letter and it says, blah, blah, blah. Okay, Maharaj's returned to his ashram in Kenchi, his temple. Now I have a name of this place.

And after some time, I went to see him and as you know, great saints like Maharaj do not encourage the devotees to come to them. But their doors are always open. So if you're here traveling in India, you can come and see him. Right. All I saw was a green light. Yeah, we're going, right? Not exactly.

Many years later, this man, K.K. Shah, he said to me, did I ever tell you what really happened that day? I said no. He said, well, I went to see Maharaj and now there were three letters. Danny and the guy who opened the door for me there. He was also our letter. I went to see Maharaj and I came into his room. I put the letters on the bed next to him and I sat down in front of him.

He was talking to some other people. And I began to peel an apple and feed it to him. He only had like three teeth. So he got a soft apple and cut it in small pieces. He would gum it. So I was feeding him this apple and he's talking to these people and he sees the letters and he says to me, what's that? I said to him, these are students of Ram Dass.

They want to come see you. No, tell them not to come. At which point I got very upset because this is the man that Maharaj had sent Ram Dass to, to be helped by him and, you know, and everything. And Ram Dass told K.K. to serve Ram Dass. I mean, Maharaj told K.K. to serve Ram Dass. Right. Now Maharaj was interfering with the very service he told K.K. to do.

Right. And this pissed K.K. off. So he says, I stopped feeding the apples to him and I looked down and I began to pout. And after some time Maharaj noticed this and he, he said, K.K., what's the matter? What's the matter? And I wouldn't look at him and he pushed my head up like this,

but I would turn my eyes away and I wouldn't look at him. And then when he let go, I put my head down again. Finally, after a while he was exasperated and he said, okay, tell him what you want. Tell them what you want. So K.K. being a good devotee isn't going to lie. So what did he write? As you know, great saints like Maharaj do not encourage the devotees to come.

It sounds different the second time, doesn't it? He's basically trying to say he really doesn't want to see any more Americans. You're annoying him. It was as if it really was like that. He was like, what do I have to do with this? He said that. What do I have to do with this? So tell him not to come.

I think that's one of the most peculiar things about stories of Maharaj. Is that when you hear about the famous gurus, it seems quite the opposite. They are opulent and they want to gather some huge following. They want to draw people to them. But he seems, there's every story I've heard about him. I've read that he actually, he would try to, he would, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I read that sometimes, because he got mobbed, he got mobbed. Like you were the beginning, you're like the first locust that lands.

And then soon there was just oceans, I think. Even with the Indian people, he used to say, anywhere I sit down becomes a village in 10 minutes. Right. People came from everywhere. Because, well, for lots of reasons, of course, but go ahead. I heard that he would tell people he had to use the bathroom. And then disappear.

And climb out the window. Disappear. The other thing he used to say, he used to say, go away is my mantra. Yeah. Go. You've come. That's good. Now go.

But this is an interesting thing. But before we get into that, I want to hear about the first time you set eyes on him and what that experience was like. It was very strange. Because I'd been dreaming him already since meeting Ram Dass and seeing this little black and white picture. I was having dreams about Maharaj and I just felt that he was my guru. I knew that in my heart.

But he was this huge presence, you know, not having met him physically. He was just everywhere that I was. He was there. I felt him so much. So when I saw this little guy wrapped up in a blanket, I just like, my mind couldn't fit all that into there. It was really a strange moment, you know. He was little?

He was small. Yeah. He was a little Indian guy. Oh, no kidding. I always pictured him as gigantic. So did I. So did I. And in fact, once he, I always thought he was huge.

And then I saw a picture of him, me walking with him. He was like up to here. Whoa. I said, I don't believe it. I couldn't. It was shocking because he was just huge. His presence was. So, you know, so when you saw him, there was, there wasn't a, you know,

Raghu talks about slamming down to the ground on his, like, like how he felt magnetized about before Ramdas. His heart broke open. Yeah. That, in a sense, that happened to me before I met him. Right. Then there were other experiences later that were more specifically intense, you know, other things that happened.

But that first moment was just very nonchalant. I don't know how to say it. It was like we were fully accepted. We felt fully at home and at ease. And he was just sitting in this room with a few people that wasn't a big scene. It was very funky. It was really earthy and human and real. You know, it was, it wasn't like some great, you know, oh, flowy up in the air.

It was just like right here. It was unusual that way. You're so lucky. Well, I wouldn't wish what I went through after he died on anybody. Maybe my, maybe a couple of people. If I really think about it. But, you know, the thing was I had met him before I met him physically. But that wasn't enough for me.

I needed to see him, you know. And what happened to me was I got so emotionally attached to him and physically, attached to his physical being with him physically that I kind of lost touch with that other thing. So when he died, when he left the body, it was brutal, really brutal for me. So you, you were just broken, you were brokenhearted. Completely crushed. I really, I was. How did you hear about it?

I was driving up to Ram Dass. He was back up. He's back in the States and we were getting together with a bunch of the Indian people, you know, a bunch of devotees who've been there. And I was driving up from New York State where I was living in. I started to cry while I was driving on the highway. I didn't know, what is this? I couldn't figure out what this, I was really weeping.

And when I got to Ram Dass, I walked in the door and they said they had gotten a telegram just a few hours before from India. Saying that Maharaj had left his bojay, B-O-D-A. They had misspelled body. Maharaj had left his bojay last night. His bojay? What is this? What are they talking about? You know, anyway, so it was, it was rough for me.

Some people, some people didn't have that reaction, you know. Some people, one people said, one guy said, Maharaj left his body a long time ago. You know, he was not identified with it. He wasn't, that's not who he was. But for me, I was in love with him in a very human emotional way as well. And so it was really hard for me. Because the only time I had been happy that way was with him physically when I was there with him. And now that was over.

And I was left with me. Right. And me wasn't going to make it the way I was, you know. It was really rough. Do you feel that that's unhealthy to have that kind of dependence on a person that to, to, I think that probably when people hear these stories about a guru, I know personally for me to wrap my head around the concept of a guru and being around people directly impacted by him,

it took a long time for me to not be incredibly cynical and skeptical about it. To think, you know, there were moments, of course, where I would want to believe. But still, I think maybe some people who hear these stories, they think this is a unhealthy dependence on a human being. And let me be the cynic just for a second so you can correct me. This is an unhealthy dependence on a human being who is intentionally creating this spiritual hierarchy. He was intentionally creating this illusion of...

Who's, who's creating? The guru. The, you know, this is a, the idea is, this is what we, many people think in the West. Charlatans emerge. They produce some effect, whatever it may be. They dress a certain way. They draw around them a gravity of followers. That gravity, all you need is a few.

And then other people see, oh shit, the guy's got followers, there must be something there. And then that draws in more, creates a cascade. The next thing you know, you have this swirl of devotees around you. And people, cynical people think that this is an incredibly unhealthy thing. And that to, to, to avoid it at all costs. Because we are all responsible for our own enlightenment, as somebody said to you when you were in high school. And so how is this different from that? Right.

It's Buddha said to you in high school. So how is this, how is this, how is this okay from the lens of someone raised in the West who has been taught at all costs, don't let yourself get sucked in. Or as Mark Twain said, religion started when the first con man met the first fool. How do we wrap our heads around this relationship and see it not as some kind of, I don't know, dark flight of fancy that Ram Dass and everyone got sucked into. PS, that's not me. That's just me speaking for the cynics out there who are feeling this. I agree with the cynics, you know.

The worst thing about growing up in the West is that we're not taught or trained or shown that we should trust our own intuition. We're always taught that we need to, somebody out there knows better than us and we have to listen to them. We're never really shown a way to take responsibility for our own feelings and for understanding what it is we really want. The thing about Maharaj was he didn't want anything. And it was so different being with somebody who doesn't want anything, who doesn't need you to be any way, to be happy. He's already happy. He doesn't, like I said, go away was his mantra. He said that, go, go.

People would come from, you know, and they'd go, you come. Now good, now go. You know, he didn't need us to be there. He wasn't, and there was no business going on. So I'm also a skeptic. If I don't feel it, I don't buy it. But I've learned, and I'm still learning, to trust my heart in a more, a deeper way as time goes on. Because who are you going to trust, you know?

And as far as you're saying about people not wanting to find something out there, everybody wants that. What do you think we're trying to do when we fall in love? Which is 24-7 for all of us. We're looking for that person who's going to do it for us constantly, every day for the rest of our million lifetimes. So, and Maharaj, he knew that. He's not, it was strange being, to be around somebody who didn't want anything from us. It's just a different vibe. We all want things from people.

We want people to like us. We want people to respond to us. We want our enemies to hate us so we could hate them. You know, we want a lot of things from other people, but he didn't need or want anything from anybody. And all I can say is that it was so qualitatively different than anything I had felt before. And at the same time, I knew exactly what it was, what I had always been looking for. Now, somebody who finds a Charlotte and might say the same thing. Let's see how they look, how they feel about it in 20 or 30 years.

Right? Life is a learning experience. I was also in a cult once where I gave up, in order to stay there, I had to give up my own judgmental mind. I had to accept somebody else's word for things, which I did for some years until I just said, fuck it, I'm out of here. This is bullshit. So now I know what that feels like. That wasn't Maharajah.

That was something else. After Maharajah, in the years after, some of the people I got involved with were like that. They were people who manipulated other people and emotionally abused us in a certain kind of way. So I went for that because I was empty inside and I had lost my connection with Maharajah. So that looked good for a minute, but it didn't last. I think what's curious about this story is that the model I have in my mind is that you find, if you're lucky enough that in this incarnation you stumble upon the real thing, then there's some transformation that happens through that interaction that is a permanent transformation.

But I think what's curious about your story is that you meet the guru, the guru passes on, drops his body, and you are, instead of maintaining some spiritual equanimity or any of the symptoms of having advanced down the spiritual path, it sounds like you kind of had a nervous breakdown. You were crushed. Two nervous breakdowns. I had one right in his lap in India before I left. Well, you know, it's like, it's kind of like we're on a train, right? And the train stops in this station and we look out the window and there's Maharajah.

So we run off the train and go to be with him. And then he disappears and we get back on the train. Now, the only difference between before and after is that we know he's here, that we've been with him. We've had that experience. We know that love is real. We know that love exists, real love. And we know we've been touched by it and we know that we have it inside of us somewhere. But when we get back on that train, we continue with our lives.

They don't really differ that much. The karmas that propelled us onto the train in the first place are still in place. The only difference is we now know something. There's another qualitative vector there working on our karmic flow. So we go through everything. The things I went through after meeting him were ridiculous, you know. And I would have never lived through any of them if I hadn't have met him first. So what about the rest of us?

We don't get to meet the Guru. I hear these stories, Ragu tells these stories, Ram Das tells these stories. And I do like to imagine some connection with Neem Karoli Baba that transcends the physical body. But man, what about everybody just going through, as you're calling it, their karmas? Like everybody in this room, we're all going through shit, man. Like right now it's- I'm not? What?

You don't think I'm going through shit? No! Yeah! Well, you could be me for a while. No, I think you're going through shit. But you're like, you're Krishna Das. I met Maharaj and I'm still going through shit. And we didn't, so we're double fucked.

What are you complaining about? I should be the one complaining. No, this is the, I guess, what's the problem. I love these stories so much. Because those stories, they touch something in you that you know what it is. Then your mind chops it up. Right, that's right. But you felt it and you feel it, which is why you're attracted to this in the first place.

And why are we attracted to it? Because, like Buddha said when he come out of the jungle for the first time after finding his enlightenment, he said, yo, guess what? Shit don't work. What? That's what he said. He said, everything in this world has dissatisfaction built into it. No matter what it is, if it's pleasure, it will end and turn into pain.

If it's pain, it will turn into pleasure. But everything changes and nothing remains the same. You can't find happiness in either one of those. There's always dissatisfaction. They call it dukkha, which means suffering. But the quality of the suffering is that nothing will ever be enough. Right. Nothing out there.

But we feel, when we hear these stories that this stuff is true, it just touches that place. Yes. This longing. Yes. Everybody has. Everybody has that longing. And following that longing is what leads us deeper and deeper into our own, into the love that lives within us, as who we really are.

And touching that longing is a blessing. Recognizing that you have that longing. You just, your life starts to change around that. The stuff that you used to do, you just, it kind of falls away. Not because you judge it, but just because naturally it hasn't helped. Once that, once that button has been pushed, you know, it's just a question of time. But what about the button gets pushed? And then, you know, I remember when I got into that, when I started chanting our Krishna and what there was a teacher,

Bada Hari Das was his name. Amazing guy. And like, I left and I ended up staying with my dad in Mobile, Alabama and sending letters to this devotee. And I remember he wrote me this letter back. He sent it to my dad's management office at the Mobile Festival Center. So my dad gets this box, smells like incense from a Hari Krishna temple. He's like this, he's like, what is this? But I remember the, what do you got there, man?

That's not more that stuffed Indian bullshit. Because they have like Prabhupada, they have these like Prabhupada mannequins. And Prabhupada is the founder of the Hari Krishnas. And they have these like statues of him that my dad saw. And ever since then, he's like, that's stuffed Indian. How long did it take him to stuff that Indian? So, it's not a mummy, dad, it's a statue. But he sent me this beautiful letter.

And in the letter he said, the longer you are away from this, the more it'll seem like a dream. And eventually you'll barely remember it. And that's how I feel kind of now. Like I can remember when I was younger, that longing that you're talking about, that feeling of like really wanting it and being drawn into it. But now I kind of go back, like it's sad to say, but the older I get, the number I feel. And I'll still chant. And sometimes when I'm chanting, I'll really feel it.

And then I'll think to myself, well, fuck that. Right, you think yourself and then you, because you identify with your thoughts. Right. The practice of chanting is once again, paying attention. When you notice you're not paying attention to the chanting, you've been thinking, thinking, thinking, thinking. You just let it go. You're training yourself to let those thoughts go because those thoughts are what's killing you. Not the feeling you have inside.

Right. And spitting it out. Right. But they can't. They just take you away for as long as they last. And that's why they call it practice. You have to do it. The longing is one thing.

But once you, once I remember driving in India and the sun was setting, we were driving right into the sunset. And I thought that Grateful Dead song, what's that? The road to, it was a beautiful song with glorious sun devotion or something like that. Driving right into the sun, you have to avoid the cows. Sugar Magnolia? To avoid the other cars. Huh?

No, sorry. Sugar Magnolia, something else. But yeah, that's, once you, the more you bow to that longing inside of you, and we're not talking about anything outside of you. The more you find a way to deepen that feeling for yourself. Because you intuitively know. Not here. And not even emotionally.

You know this is real. This is what you're looking for. So this isn't a feeling. It's not, it's a feeling. But it's, it's not, emotions are just like thoughts that come and go. This is a feeling that's always there. That's covered up by our stuff. And as we do these practices, that covering gets thinner.

I got to ask you, I think that, let me see how much time we have. I want to ask you, for people listening, and maybe people in the audience, because I know I've met people who do have a strange attraction to Neem Karoli Baba. I like to fantasize about it, and I have had experiences where I feel like I've felt him. I disregard them sometimes, and sometimes I embrace them. But how, how can, do you, do you think that it's possible for people to connect with Maharaji that have never met his physical form, or is that just wishful thinking? I'm not sure that Maharaji ever met his physical form.

He was not, he was, that body was just like a cover. You know, he's, he is that living presence within us. God is that living presence within us, and he is one with that. It's called Antarayami, the living, the indwelling being, the indwelling presence. What's looking out of our eyes is exactly the same. He knows that, we don't. We identify with the shell. You think you're you, I think I'm me.

He doesn't think he's him. He doesn't think like we do. He's gone beyond that. He's become the whole universe. He's here all the time. It goes with the territory. There's nowhere else he could be. There's nowhere else to go, even for us.

We think we're going to go to some heaven world when we die, or some hell world if we're bad. It's not somewhere else. It's right now, right here. There is nowhere else except here at any minute, and he's always aware of that. We are not. I hope that's not too weird, but the point is that that's always available to us. It's always here. It's just like an ocean with the waves.

When the waves are all like this, like our thoughts, we can't see down to the bottom of the ocean. But as the ocean calms, then you can see and experience what's there. When you're stuck in the waves, you can't do anything, but try to survive. And that's what we do. But as we do these practices, little by little, under the radar, and that's the important thing here. We don't sit around thinking, wow, that was a really good meditation. I'm going to get very close to God now. If I keep doing this maybe by tomorrow at 5.30, I'll realize.

You do the practices. The practices plant these seeds within us. The seeds grow under the radar. Our life changes around that. And we spend less time moping around than we used to, but we don't notice that. Because the noticeer is the one that's getting thinned away and shaved away and thrown away little by little. How does a person start down this path? Maybe people here haven't zero experience with this at all.

What's something that someone listening could do if they feel attracted to this to start a practice? First of all, none of us are beginners on the path. We're all human beings in the same situation. Everybody wants the same thing. These practices are not spiritual in their nature. They don't make you spiritual by doing them. What they do is they train us not to believe all the lies we tell ourselves. All the stories we tell ourselves about ourselves all the time.

If I wasn't giving myself a hard time, maybe nobody in the whole fucking world would give me a hard time. But I do it, so nobody else has to. If I wasn't doing it, shh, gone. But you can't just grab a thaw and kill it. You have to train a little bit to recognize which direction to move in. So if one is interested in doing some practice, do it. But what practices do more than anything is they help us become good human beings. Which means people that care about other people.

People who begin to recognize that I'm not the king of the universe and it doesn't always revolve around me alone. That there are other people out there who are hurting. Maybe I could do something for them. Maybe I can't, but maybe I could. We start, it softens our heart up and the walls start to come down a little bit. And then we start to act different in our lives. And that's enough. That's what the practices give us the strength to do.

You can't pick yourself up like this. You need some leverage. You can't just stop thinking you're an asshole. It takes time. Believe me, it takes time. And I might be wrong. I might be an asshole after all that. You never know.

But I'm working on it. You're not an asshole. That's a weird way to end the podcast. Great shout out to everybody. I made it. I made it. Thank you. So guys, we got a microphone here.

We're in the part of the show where we take questions. So anybody who has a question, please don't be afraid. Step up to that microphone and ask away. So guys, Duncan, it's always great to see you again. And Krishna Das, it's a pleasure to see you for the first time tonight. So thank you for the conversation and the chanting. This question is going to take things kind of in a slightly different direction. But I'm just curious about, as you talk about evoking a sense of self

and finding the place in yourself that is true love for everyone around you, do you think that the pendulum also swings in the different direction where there's also a darker sense of self that is sort of like a perverted sense of what you're talking about. I think we're kind of seeing that in this country right now politically with the rise of nationalism as well, where I started thinking about this in your conversation as you started bringing up the description of a charlatan,

your skeptic description of a charlatan, passing crowds and everybody that kind of draws an easy parallel for the crowd as we're going through this political time. And then as you said, well, the reasons that I'm attracted to him and that I feel comforted in the Maharajah that he doesn't need me like he seems to have figured it out on his own. And then also the mantra being go away also got me thinking, well, then what is the mantra of Donald Trump? It's your fired.

So there's also like... It's so funny. He's saying the mantra of Donald Trump is your fired. Which is very... There's an easy thing that is happening where in people's minds the sense of self stops there. If you know what I mean like that. And I'm curious as to what you think about this time

that feels a little bit darker probably in our lifetimes. Do you know what I mean? Like there's definitely something in the air that seems just, you know, unsettling in people too. Not in the air but in people. So yeah, I just want to open that up and talk about that in a second. What's your name? I'm Luke. The mantra of Donald Trump is me, me, me, me, me. That's all he cares about.

And he only cares about the people who feed him, feed that me and him with a capital M. That's what I'm saying. So me and I are two different things, right? So he's stuck in the me. And it's all self-centered selfishness and self gratifying and so... All this stuff. And the real issue is that he doesn't know his true nature.

And he doesn't even believe that there is anything else but me. So obviously what he's going to do and all the people that feel that way are going to just keep grabbing, grabbing, grabbing for stuff that gives them pleasure and helps them avoid reality, right? And that is darkness. That's a darker... That selfish small world is very dark. There's no light in that world, you know?

And what's kind of a wake up call is seeing how many people relate to that, you know? And take that as a model. A lot of people voted for that guy in this country, our country. So to see that is really quite extraordinary. It's very disturbing. And it shows us that if we want to be good human beings and live in a good way, we have some work to do inside and outside. Because if we love ourselves or if we can overcome our self-loathing

and extend ourselves to other people, we'd want to lessen their suffering. So that would impel us to become active in a way in the world at the same time we're working on ourselves. The trick is to do it without anger. Because anger breeds only more anger. So it's a very tough situation. Whether to be socially active or so-called internally active. It's not one or the other.

But one has to always check your motivation, you know? If we do things out of anger, there will always be a reaction. If we do things with an understanding that every action has a reaction and that we try to live in the best way we can and include everybody. And remember when Bush, we thought he was bad? Right. And here's a little story about Bush. So I was watching the television once and going through the channels.

And I hated Bush. He was an asshole. And I'm flipping through the channels and I think it was at CNN. And here they show a picture, a video. The great President Bush was going to meet with the first group of widows from Iraq War. And there were like 30 women waiting for him in this room, right? And they show him walking down the hallway, the President, the great President, walking down the hallway, smiling, laughing at people. He opens this door and he sees these women and he bursts out crying like a baby.

Like a baby. Weeping like a baby. How could I hate him? I couldn't hate him anymore. And in fact, what happened was I felt such compassion for this asshole. Here he was creating so much suffering for so many people and don't think that he's not going to have to pay for that. Every action has a reaction, cause and effect.

He's going to suffer terribly for his stupidity and his, what's the word, with all the powers that be behind him that force him and all that stuff. So I couldn't help it. I felt compassion for the guy. I hated feeling that, but I did. So that's what I'm saying. It's complicated. It's really complicated, but it comes down to us working on ourselves

and extending that work to the world in the best way we can. That's what I've come to figure out so far. Thank you. Yeah, thank you. Hello, gentlemen. Thank you so very much for the podcast. Always amazing. Thank you.

I have a quick, not going to be very quick, but basically, the way I see how you talk about Maharajee, it's like this universal, oh, sorry, it's like this universal truth of like love, the way you talk about Maharajee. And I feel like there's some truth to reincarnation and the way that some ideas never really die and they need to be brought back just to be remembered as like a reminder for humanity because we are like so slow with progress and we just like inch towards it every time.

So I'm just wondering, is it comparable? Is it easy to say he's comparable to Jesus Christ in the way that Jesus brought about this truth of like love and he even said sometimes, you don't need me here for this. Like you have this whole big ascension thing and for the longest time we think you have to get high, that's how you get happy, you know, you've got to be up. How do we kind of learn from this idea of reincarnation

of people coming back to remind us things to kind of move forward in the best direction possible as a race, you know, as an entire like human race as a being? Sorry. Okay. Well, I don't think it's necessary to even think about it, tell you the truth. The real thing is how do we get to the day without killing ourselves

or somebody else, right? I mean, those ideas are things that are, eventually we might understand from the inside, but they're not things we need to think about because we immediately, a neurosis will grab it and immediately turn it into, oh, I've got to be good, I can't be bad, I can't do all those things I really want to do because I'll have a bad birth next time.

You know, we'll just screw it up and make it worse. Really the thing is we need to work on ourselves as we see ourselves and as we see our lives around us. It's nice to read about that stuff, it certainly gives you something to think about, but it doesn't help so much when you're depressed and you can't feel this and you can't feel that and you don't feel loved and you feel empty inside.

It's not useful that way. What's useful is doing a little practice because practice is what changes us from the inside underneath the radar. We can't think ourselves out of a prison that's made of thought. Thought itself is the prison. They always do that to me too, man. Every time.

And I'll see you next life and we'll talk about it some more. Because I can remember riding in the car with Ragu actually to go see Ram Dass. And I'd gotten stoned. Pretty high. And I remember being in this heightened state, hanging out with them makes you feel pretty high even if you're not smoking weed or doing whatever.

Just because you get a contact. But I can remember, same thing, riding with Ragu, tell him about Maharaj. What was he? Do you think he was outside the time-space continuum, man? He could say, see everything in the future and everything in the past. Do you think if that's the case,

he knew we'd be in the car together having this conversation? In Ragu. I remember Ragu, for those of you who don't know, runs the Love Server Member Foundation. He looked at me, he's like, I don't know. How do I know? He said, all I know is that I have to work on myself so that I can give something to the people closest to me.

And I really love that. They always bring it down to this very simple equation, which is that even though the mind wants to go into those places, my mind certainly does, because it's fun to go into those places. There's like a more simple pragmatic project, which is what they inevitably say, which is to return to this thing they call a practice, and that from that you'll achieve something way better

than understanding the nuances of reincarnation. That's what they say. I don't know if it works. Thank you so much, gentlemen. Thank you. Hi, Krishna Das. I'm Ilana, and I'm here alongside so many amazing educators who are bringing up our children. And I'm just so curious about what advice you have for educators

who are engaging with children every single day in the classroom for how we can help young kids cultivate that sense of inner strength and purpose and everything that you're talking about today. You should ask my daughter. Where is she? She's not here today. She's raising her kid. Once again, if you have it, people will feel it. The more real the stuff gets for you,

everything you do will reflect that. They'll feel the way you teach, they'll feel the way you speak, the way you see them. You can't fake it. It's not that you would, but I'm just saying, the more we're doing this stuff for ourselves in a good way, everybody gets the ripples from that. So you could...

And it'll just be transmitted to them the way you are, that there's something about you, and they may ask questions about this and that. My life was saved by an English teacher who came back to teach after she raised her family. This woman had so much joy in just sharing literature with us stone-freaked-out seniors that I just said, like, who is this person?

She touched me in a way that had brought me back into life when I was kind of fading away in another direction. I just felt it from her. She didn't say anything. And then a few years ago, she came to a kirtan in New York at the church, there were like 1,000 people. I made her stand up and the whole place applauded her. She saved my life, just being herself.

So that's the best thing. The more you're yourself, you give the people around you permission to be themselves, which is what everybody wants to be. Yes, we're doing the right thing. I guess I said the right thing. Thank you. Thank you.

Thanks, guys. I wanted to ask specifically about psychedelics. I know we could laugh, but let's be honest about it. What do you got? What do you got? Do either of you think that you would have gotten to the places you are in life without the use of the psychedelic experience as a catalyst and maybe to answer somebody else's question?

Do you think that as well as a practice of whatever practice, do you think that as far as the masses of the people all voting for Trump is fucking day and age? I mean, if you dozed them, they would vote for somebody else? No, but what I'm saying is... Okay, I'll get more specific then. Sometimes when I hear Ramdas, I hear a lot of your guests, Buddhist teachers,

they focus a lot more on the spiritual aspects rather than the psychedelic nature of it all. And maybe a way to wake some people up would be a very strong Terence McKenna level advocacy for the psychedelic experience. But more specifically, would either of you be who you are today without psychedelics in your life? Absolutely not.

I mean, the first mind-altering chemical I ever did was peyote between my junior and senior year of high school. Changed a lot of things. Because as soon as the peyote kicked in, I looked around and I saw a different world which I knew without any doubt was more real than anything else I had seen on Long Island. I can relate.

The fact that I almost drove into a lake while I was looking at the sun, that's a whole other thing. So it definitely showed me number one, there is a whole other universe right inside this universe. And there is something to find. But it didn't show me how to stay there. It didn't teach me about myself in a certain... The only thing that keeps us locked out of our own hearts is our own bullshit.

Psychedelics in some situations can show you something, but they can't let you stay there. Maharaj himself said, he called it the yogi medicine, LSD, and he took a shitload of it himself. Ram Das gave him a whole story. But anyway, he said, the yogi medicine can bring you into the room with Christ.

He said this little Hindu guy up in the mountains in the Himalayas, the yogi medicine can bring you into the room with Christ, but you can't stay. The only way to stay is love. So in some situations, possibly if a person is looking for something, it can help them find the direction to look in. But you can't dose somebody who's not ready,

because they can't handle it. And anything could happen. They might think they're God, which they are. But that you can't think you're God, you just have to be God. That's the problem. So there's a lot of things that can go wrong with dosing people if they're not ready. And continual use of psychedelics, actually my understanding is that it weakens the will.

It weakens your ability to put your mind where you want it, your attention where you want it. It weakens you instead of strengthens you over time. And without your will and the ability to do the things that you need to do for yourself, to reveal to yourself what's in there, you can weaken yourself that way. So constantly going back to that room is not useful. Once you've seen through the door, or twice, or three times, whatever.

Okay, four, five, six, seven, eight. Especially you know what's there. You're just fucking up by going back there again and not dealing with the shit that's keeping you out of there in the first place. But no, I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for that. Peyote was a life-changing experience. But I got very depressed after that because I knew there was something else and I was completely locked out of it.

I had no clue where to go, how to find it again. I know Alan Watts that has that famous saying, once you get the message, hang up the phone. But what I've always thought is, unless you're talking to your fucking friend, what an asshole. Like, who wants to talk to Alan Watts? It's like, okay, I got them, okay, bye, duh, see you later. So I understand that this idea,

but I think that a lot of the research happening right now is around psychedelics, particularly around microdosing. You know, if you look at the way people have used psychedelics in recent history versus the way they used it in the distant past, in recent history it's a brand new thing. It quickly entered into a prohibited state, so people didn't get to explore it, and so they were using it in the way like frat boys drink tequila.

You know, you're like taking these big doses in strange situations instead of taking it in a more disciplined way. So I would recommend a great book to you that I'm reading right now by Steven Kotler called Stealing Fire. And it's about the premise of it is there was a substance that I think Plato took called kaikion, which was, no one knows what that was, but there was a long lead up to taking this substance.

He said that it would put you in touch with the gods. That's far, because Maharajee said that. Maharajee took acid twice. Ram Das gave it to him twice. The second time he pretended he was going crazy until Ram Das freaked out, and then he said, ah, stop. He said, yogis had known about this stuff for thousands of years. He used to grow up there in the Kulu Valley. A yogi would go, he would do yama, niyama, pranayama, asana, all that stuff,

and finally bring his mind to one point, and then he would take the soma and go through the door. Same thing as Plato. So it could be useful. The point is that I think that there could be, I think that there is the potential to take psychedelics for a lifetime, but not necessarily take them in the way that maybe you took them when you're in high school or college,

that if the more people study them and understand exactly why they work and what they're doing and what the right dosages might be for just focusing, then it could be a useful thing. If that was the case, what are you going to do when you run out of acid? Buy more. What if you're somewhere you can't get it? The point is you're dependent on something outside of you to give you an experience. The experiencer is not getting lighter, it's getting heavier,

and the idea of being a separate being that's experiencing is illusion. We are not separate beings. We think we are, and so we act like that. The reality is that the same awareness, looking out through our eyes, hearing in our ears, in everybody. So if you're doing things, that's why it's okay to get a glimpse. It helps you understand there's something else, but from then on you have to find, you have to eliminate your clinging,

your craving, your apprehensions, and all that stuff, the stuff that keeps you locked out of your own heart. And that doesn't depend on, you can't get that from outside, no matter how much dose you take, because you'll die. Where are you going to get acid when you're dead? Hard to do. I don't know. I don't know either.

It's an angel that sells acid, maybe. I think this is a point where we might disagree right now, though I don't want to disagree with everything that you say. I think there's, again, who are you going to listen to, man? I'm not, I can't play harmonium. But do you think you'd be who you are today without psychedelics, again, very specifically as a catalyst, not a continual use or specific purposes?

Absolutely not. You wouldn't be who you are. No, it was one of... You just brought something up, I just want to say one more thing. The yogis that had used it years ago, thousands of years ago, do you think it's possible that the plant medicines were part of, again, a catalyst for even religion itself? And if that's the case, wouldn't it be intelligent to go about one's practice

through psychedelic means, particularly for catalyzing events, not continuous use or abuse? What a good clear on that. What Maharajee said was that a yogi would go, and first, he would quiet himself. He would get flexibility and strengthen his body. He would then quiet his breath. So maybe he was only breathing once or twice a minute.

And then he would quiet his mind further. And then he would bring his mind to one point. And then he would take the soma. Getting to that point is beyond anyone of us at this point. And, you know, bringing the mind to one point and it stays there? Yeah, sure. Not so easy. And if you don't do that, the point is that everything gets, like, refracted.

All the light gets refracted. And you're seeing billions of things instead of the one. And so that's the point. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Who's next? Hello, Krishna Das. My name is Christina.

I'm also from Long Island. I'm from the Belmore-Merrick area. I grew up. And I just recently watched your documentary. And I started crying after the first sentence of the documentary. I just started bawling. And I had a great time really watching your life experience. But I found myself questioning a little bit more about the music

and a little bit more about your journey with Kirtan and how you went from being a super awesome rock star to what you showed us and what you offered us today. So if you wouldn't mind if you could talk a little bit about your journey with music and Kirtan. Okay, sure. I had been, I'd always wanted to be in a band and do that stuff. And I was always into music. I played a lot of blues, guitar and all that stuff.

But when I got to India and I just was walking around and heard the chanting, it was like, wow, is that? And what hit me was that those people who was chanting were 100% into it. They were able to give themselves completely to this practice. And that was what drew me to it because I hadn't been able to give myself completely to anything in my life before. And I understood this was a way I could give myself totally to something in the moment. And it was shocking to me.

It really shook me terribly because I saw that I've been looking for something like this that I could give myself totally, that it was totally safe, totally had no bottom to it. It was totally real. And it was all up to me to do. Nobody had to, you know. So I just started hanging out with anybody who was chanting anywhere. Because I began to experience, it was like a figure ground reversal.

I was no longer out here trying to get in. I was like in noticing when I was out. And then I could let go of that and be back. It just changed it. That's the practice aspect of the chanting. It's not about the music as such. Music is like a syrup, a sweet syrup. But it's the medicine of the name or these mantras hidden in the syrup that allows us to go deeper.

You know, if it was only music, every musician in the world would be enlightened. I don't think so. So it's what the music is, what the music allows to happen. It helps us calm down and it helps us pay attention. But it's these names that you were saying have some magic. The magic is that you can always let go and come back to the name, to the mantra. You can always let go and when you can't let go, you won't be there thinking about it. You have become that presence.

You won't be lost or caught by your thoughts anymore. Identified and pulled out of yourself. So you keep letting go again and again and again. And finally, there's nothing to let go of. And that's not just music. That's these names. At least that's what I've got from whatever I've done so far. Thank you. Thank you.

I think we have time for one more question. Duncan, have you watched the podcast with Joe Rogan and Alex Jones? Are you kidding? It was hilarious. Yeah. But it was like the most watched podcast ever in history. And there's a reason for that. And the reason is there is some truth in that podcast. And I think that's the reason why it became so popular. It's not just because that Alex is crazy.

It's because there's some truth to it. I'm not saying that there isn't clearly some secret, terrible stuff that goes on every day in the government. And more than likely, things that even Alex Jones couldn't possibly imagine are happening. But to me, what was fascinating about the podcast, I think, was the way it kept... Do you know who Alex Jones is? So Alex Jones... Alex Jones is prime television today for me, as far as I'm concerned, because everything else is lies. And I thought it was like 20 to 30% lies.

But on January 20th, I found out that actually CNN, NBC, all those channels is 100% fabricated lies. Okay? Hold on. So people say that Donald Trump is all about me, me, me. Not really. Donald Trump, for me personally, is somebody who is a hero. He's trying to save America from total disaster. A complete disaster.

I must say, this is the perfect ending to the podcast. I've done lots of psychedelics and still voted Trump. Okay, okay, okay. Hold on. It's number one. It's okay that you voted for Donald Trump. Number one, I don't judge you for that. And I think that you are exercising your right as a human being.

I would say this, though. One thing I love about what you teach us is that, sure, you know what the Hindu name for this reality is? Maya. Illusion. Living illusion. So we're living inside an active illusion that is, in certain places I've read that it's, for every single person, it's formed this very confusing universe around you. And as part of its qualities, what it does is it tricks you.

It tricks you into thinking, this is real when it isn't real, or this isn't real when it is real. So what you're talking about is several layers out, which is like, is the news real? Is Anderson Cooper a robot? Is the Queen of England a lizard? You know, these are things like... Duncan, we know how... We know the Queen of England's a lizard. I get that.

But what I'm saying is, if you bring it down, if you bring it away from Trump, if you bring it away from the state, if you bring it away from the government, if you bring it away from whatever the media, or even what Alex Jones is telling you to be afraid of or not to be afraid of, if you bring it back down into the present moment, where you're at right now, and look at how you really feel, and ask yourself, how much are those feelings impacted by the validity of the news on CNN? How much are those feelings impacted by whatever Donald Trump does or doesn't do? You'll realize that that stuff is not what's creating the turbulence inside of you, or the sense of confusion, or the feeling of like, what can I believe and what can I not believe?

You realize that actually, there's a fundamental dissatisfaction that comes from existing in this incarnation, that can't be satiated by the president, or whoever the political leaders are. I'm not saying that that could be... That's not what I'm saying, but, you know, I was born in Soviet Union, and I remember, you know, I was young when I left, but I still remember what it was like. I remember my parents sitting around, we're watching TV, and, you know, they're laughing at it because it's all lies, it's all propaganda, but I find myself today in the same, you know, it's like, I'm in Soviet Union,

and if you look at these protests, you know, the people for Trump, they have an American flag. The people that are against Trump, they're carrying a flag I never thought I would see again. It's a big... Listen, I... The sickle and the communist flag, really? I hope you'll forgive me, I hope you'll forgive me. I never want to see these people again. I don't mean to shut you down.

You know? One day, it would be my dream to have Alex Jones as a guest up here, and you could ask him that question, but tonight we have Krishnadas, who is like that. Fine, fine. So let's save that question for another night, but thank you and I hope that you find the truth. Do you want to...

Maybe one more... Does anyone have another question? There we go. Oh. Oh, great. One last question. Please, God, don't be about Trump. Please, God.

Please, Trump, don't let it be about God. I'm just curious, as part of your songs, it seems that Hanema is one of the more revered deities that you sing about, and I know, well, I just wanted to hear from you a little bit more how that came to be and why that deity is opposed to many others, which I know you do sing about. Yeah. You know, I don't know who I'm singing to. I sing really...

I sing to the presence of my Guru, the presence of love. It's a feeling, you know? It's not any particular deity. All those names are the names of love. One of the things that happened really early when I got interested in this stuff is I read this book called the Ramcharitmanas, which is a retelling of the story of Rama, which is called the Ramayana in English.

And reading this book rewired my brain in a way that I couldn't have believed. We don't have the wiring to feel love that isn't self-serving, that isn't emotional, physical, sexual love. We don't have the wiring. But in these books, and reading this book, people would be walking in the jungle and they'd come across Rama and they'd look at this guy. And then, like for 20 pages, there'd be a description of his eyes

and the beauty of his arms. And then they'd get up and they'd walk further. It was a whole other way of seeing things, you know? It was a non-personal love that didn't depend on an object in a way. I don't know how to explain it, but a lot of the reasons our thoughts revolve the way they do, the self-loathing, the self-hatred, the neediness and all that stuff that we have, is because that's what they've always done.

So a lot of these practices, what they do is they give new ways for our thoughts to actually go that we didn't even know existed before. And those ways are lighter and clearer and more satisfying in many ways than, well, a little self-flagulation never hurt, but we don't have to do that all the time. But we don't know what else to do with our heads, you know? So you can't just chop off a thought or kill it or shoot it. You have to replace it with something.

And that's why a lot of these practices ask us to contemplate things like compassion and kindness for others, because since we probably will be thinking something, if we think thoughts that plant seeds of happiness or of peace, that's what will grow. But we're not trained in that growing up, at least in Miniola. I didn't see anybody doing this shit, you know? If I could just ask one quick follow-up. I love how you mix some of these songs like Mariana and then For Your Love

and go from almost an Indian chant to an American 60s song. I'm just curious, how did that come to you? Was that a natural progression? It was completely unnatural, you know? No, it just came out. You know, I sing what I like. That's the weirdest thing. I sing what gets me off, because I'm trying to enter that space again and again.

When I sing with people, I'm sharing my practice with people. I'm not really, my main focus is for me to really be paying attention, really be giving it 100% as much as I can, so that in some sense allows other people to do that for themselves. I grew up on Long Island, I grew up in the 60s, I grew up on the rock and roll, so that's what's natural to me. When I first came back and started chanting when I came back from India, it was all very Indian, the melodies that I learned there.

But I don't have much of a brain, so I forgot those melodies. And I just sing what comes out, you know? And these things happen, like that Narayana thing happened in Soundcheck one day. I was just playing some chords and I went, oh wow, that's that chord. And stuff like that, you know? I have to say, when you did it, it just seemed like it was natural and magical and I found myself singing myself. Thanks, yeah.

And Om Namah Shivaya, my big hit. You know what that is? Because then I didn't know that. I swear I didn't know it. I didn't do it on purpose, it just happened. This guy grew up in Comac, Long Island. Just one last question. We used to, we used to wait for Bluish to cult

and I guess their code name over the radio was Soft White Underbelly. That was the band's first name, yeah, Soft White Underbelly. I was just curious, how did they come up with that? Because we would flip out and go and say, Soft White Underbelly's playing at Hammerheads tonight and we'd flip out. Well, they needed a name. It was the 60s. There was the Strawberry Alarm Clock.

There was the Raspberry, something else, I don't know. And Sandy Perlman was this genius maniacal guy who came up with Soft White Underbelly. And they started like that for a while, but later on they got a little bit something or other and they got below the underbelly into the blue oyster cult. And that's how they got well known. It was really special to go see them when they, you know.

Thank you. Thank you. Krishnadas, everybody, let him hear it. Thank you so much for listening, everybody. That was Krishnadas. If you want to find out more about Krishnadas, you can go to krishnadas.com. And don't forget to check out his upcoming event,

which is at the Benefit for the Tibetan Home of Hope in Tarrytown on April 6th. You can find that at krishnadas.com. Much thanks to Squarespace for sponsoring this episode. You can go to squarespace.com and use offer code Duncan to get 10% off your first order. And thank you guys so much who came to the live show. I hope you will come to the next live show, which is in May.

You can see the ticket link at dunkintrustle.com. I'll see you guys next week. We've got a fantastic conversation coming up with Imol Amos. Until then, Hare Krishna. Welcome to Rockler Woodworking and Hardware. And as woodworkers ourselves, we all know you can't have enough tools. Did you know that Rockler.com has 20,000 woodworking tools online?

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