Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Michael Donovan

Episode Date: October 20, 2015

Duncan is joined by photographer and podcaster, Michael Donovan.  WARNING- LONG ANTI WAR RANT!!!

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She needs her medicine. Why don't you go buy some for her? I can't kid. We're out of cash. Out of cash? What happened to all our money? Spin it on razors kid. I had to keep my face fully shaved for my job at the Laundromat and the only way I could

do that is with the supremely overpriced razors at the local razor mark. Now we're broken. Your mom's dying of Ebola. Been added she gave Ebola daddy. I don't understand. She got Ebola by going to pick up razors for me at the local razor mark. She passed one of these aid workers who just returned from Africa. If your mother wasn't a chronic alcoholic, she might have noticed that the aid worker

was showing the symptoms of Ebola. Bloody boils all over his arms and legs, dilated eyes, bloody diarrhea. He sneezed blood, ropey, bloody knots of parasite filled snot right into her mouth as she was opening her mouth and shocked horror at the price of razors. She swallowed at least three ounces of Ebola mucus and by the time she got home she was already showing symptoms herself and more than likely we've all been infected too. Oh no daddy, are you saying that you and me and mama are all going to die of Ebola because of the overpriced razors down at the local razor mark?

Couldn't have said it better myself kid. You and me and your mama are all going to die of Ebola because of the overpriced razors down at the local razor mark. If only we'd used Harry's Shave Club. Today's episode of the Docher Trussell Family Hour podcast is brought to you by Harry's Shave Club. There's no need to catch Ebola the next time you go to the local drug store and get treated like a criminal as the manager comes out and use seven keys to unlock the razor bend so

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Well guess what? I live right by the Centers for Disease Control but you don't see me breaking in the windows and snorting Ebola and various other forms of hemorrhagic fever. No. I don't want to go out among the people right now when one of the most deadly and horrible diseases is about to spread its dark vial wings and fly around the planet scooping up the souls of unwitting fools who wanted to pay 17 dollars for a razor that would do the exact same thing that a razor from Harry's Shave Club can do for you.

Go to harrys.com. Are you seriously spending your life energy being treated like you just broke out of Guantanamo Bay as some pasty faced drug store manager eyes you with suspicion as he's taking out his razor blades that had better been made out of bits of Roswell material if they're charging 14, 15, 18, shit probably 700 dollars for some of these crap razors. Go to harrys.com. I've tried them. My face even though I have a beard I do shave the tiny little beautiful apples just above

my beard. I don't know why I do it but I like to have that area clean. Also I have to shave the awful scruff of matted pubic hair that sprouts out around my neck and right underneath my chin and I've used Harry's razors to do it and Harry's shaving cream to do it and you get an excellent shave from this. I don't want to have one of those magic the gathering player necks. I like to have a nice clean smooth beautiful neck so that my sweet darling when she kisses me doesn't have to feel like she's French kissing a cactus.

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Who are these people? I don't know but we've got to tear them down from their ivory towers drag them through the streets bring them to the town square and shave every bit of hair and flesh from their skin using Harry's wonderful razors. Have your razors ready for the revolution. Go to harrys.com promo code family hour. You will get $5 off your first purchase. Let me reiterate.

I use these before one of my very few TV appearances and they do an excellent job. I don't promote anything on this podcast that I haven't used myself or wouldn't use and I recommend them. If you don't want to experience it, it's like the old days when the creepy milk guy would bring a nice bottle of warm breast milk to your door and you could pour it all over your body as you're saying the pledge of allegiance in the morning. It's the exact same thing. It's 2014 and we've returned back to those glorious days where you would open your door

and there'd be a nice fresh steak and some razors and a glass of milk delivered to your door. You can have that experience again maybe not with the steak and milk but at least with the razors. Go to harrys.com $5 off your first purchase promo code family hour and if you're really having a moment of wanting to have your initials on everything around your house which is a really fine thing to do they'll even engrave your initials or whatever you want on their razor.

You could even get family hour engraved on your razor and every time you shave that sweet delicious kissable face of yours you could think about your favorite podcast and when someone comes over and they see that carved into your razor they're going to fall in love with you and they're going to want to put their mouth on your nipples right away. Go to harrys.com forward slash family hour this is a great company support them they're supporting this podcast Harry Krishna. I want to start this podcast off by saying thank you to Adam Corolla for leading the war against patent trolls.

I don't know if you guys are aware of this or not but some time ago a patent troll by the name of personal audio LLC said that they owned the patent for episodic content and therefore wanted a licensing fee from all podcasters. They directly sued Adam Corolla and they also sued a few other podcasters and they sent letters really spooky letters to some other podcasters saying that if we don't pay a licensing fee then they were going to sue us too. Patrons for those of you who somehow have missed this are is the name given to people whose business is based only on suing people.

It's a really terrible grotesque awful thing. Quite often when they invoke these lawsuits they're expecting the company the small business that they're suing to fold because they don't have the money to pay for the legal fees. These people made the dreadful and terrible mistake that so many other people have made of sticking their greed stick right into the honey hole of the hive that is the internet and when the internet swarms beautiful beautiful things can happen. Adam Corolla led a crusade where he raised more than four hundred and fifty thousand dollars to fight this ridiculous patent and here is a beautiful beautiful statement released

from personal audio. You can read all about this at ourstechnica.com I'll post the link on the comment section of this podcast but I'll briefly let me just read this statement from personal audio who is saying that they want to drop their case against Adam Corolla and that he is not letting them drop the case but it's continuing the lawsuit from personal audio. This is from the patent troll personal audio Adam Corolla's assertions that we would destroy podcasting were ludicrous on their face said personal audio CEO Brad Little but it generated sympathy from fans and ratings for his show ratings these are people who say that they

invented podcasting and they don't understand that we don't get ratings but it generated sympathy from fans and ratings for his show getting his fan base to continue to donate to his legal fund is a cynical exploitation of the publicity power he enjoys as an entertainer he continued to say that personal audio is quite surprised Corolla turned down their offer perhaps this is because he feels he can simply get his fans to fund his future and now unnecessary legal expenses or perhaps it relates to how he uses the case as material for his show the fact of the matter is that Adam Corolla is asking people to donate money to him for a lawsuit that he no longer needs to defend we would like his listeners to understand

this situation when deciding whether or not to donate additional money to the cause according to personal audio they've lost interest in suing podcasters because the podcasters even one of Adam's Corolla size just don't make enough money for it to care they haven't stopped suing podcasters you would think that the reason that they decided to stop suing podcasters was because they suddenly realized that they were not just fighting a few individual podcasters but actually found themselves up against legions of us who enjoy podcasting who enjoy listening to podcasting who enjoy creating podcasts and feel that anyone who would dare threaten such a beautiful medium for self expression is the lowest form of scum that has ever existed on

planet earth you would think that the real reason that they stopped suing these podcasts is because suddenly they realized that they weren't like some schoolyard bully who found a paraplegic with bags of money attached to his belt but rather had stumbled upon someone who appeared to be defenseless but in fact was the leader of an army which Adam Corolla is in which so many other podcasters are and all of us band together and donated money to this and you can see the effect has been that personal audio is saying that they're no longer going to sue podcasts but here's the problem the patent still exists and that's why Adam Corolla is continuing to fight personal audio LLC because he is trying to invalidate the patent and also

I think he wants to teach a lesson to patent trolls out there I'm guessing I don't know if this is for sure but I imagine there's some sense of wanting to show these people that you can't just file ridiculous lawsuits against small businesses who are putting out really great content into the world and not expect the force of justice in the universe to manifest around you and swarm upon you like black eyed hell bees from some terrible nest deep deep deep in the third circle of hell and I have a feeling that personal audio is just starting to understand what happens when you try to screw with the internet so guys I'll have a link to Adam Corolla's fundraiser for this this is not over until this patent has been invalidated this is not over until we completely

crush this ridiculous case and make it so that podcasters of the future and podcasters now will never have to worry about some company trying to shake them down for what they call a licensing fee for a patent that from a failed business that happened many many years ago of course you can read more about this by it's all over it's all over everywhere you can check it out but I just want to say thank you so much to Adam Corolla for standing up in this way and for not being a greedy pig because Adam Corolla I have a feeling is probably doing pretty great for money I did I did I've never done his podcast but I've definitely been in the garage where his podcast happens and it's filled with really it's just nice and I know his podcast is super popular so if Adam Corolla

wanted to be a lazy person or if Adam Corolla wanted to be a person who wasn't thinking about other podcasters he probably could have just paid the licensing fee that they wanted and it wouldn't have done much to him but instead of doing that he organized a campaign the campaign is clearly having an effect and even though they want to drop the case against him he is continuing the lawsuit and to me that speaks volumes for the kind of person Adam Corolla is so thank you Adam Corolla and guys definitely I'm I'm going to donate a little bit more to this thing and I think you guys should too let's really crush this threat because who knows even though they're not apparently not suing podcasters now it doesn't mean that they can't go back ensue us it's some other point in the

future until the patent is completely invalidated this threat could exist forever and that's a spooky creepy thing all right we've got a great episode for you today today's episode is with a brilliant photographer by the name of Michael Donovan who actually took pictures of me in my first magazine photo shoot for black and gray magazine which I think is out on shelves now it's a really cool magazine this episode or this issue has pictures of ramdas pictures of me and and never before seen pictures of Alan Ginsberg so I am incredibly flattered that somehow I managed to get sandwiched in with those geniuses and Michael's are a really cool artistic brilliant human being and I'm very happy to be able to introduce him to you guys and he is starting

his own podcast which he hasn't released yet but he has been recording episodes so once he starts doing that I will upload those I will tweet those episodes so you guys can listen listen to him more okay also before we get going as always thank you so much for using the amazon portal located dunkintrustle.com the next time you're going to buy something from amazon please please please go through our portal it's a very simple thing just go to dunkintrustle.com click on the weird symbol which is located in the comment section of any episode and anything that you buy from amazon they give us a very small percentage it's a cool way for you to support this podcast while buying the delicious bits of plastic that make all of us so very happy we also have brand new

t-shirts located at the shop and also I am going on tour all over the east coast so if you'd like to see a live dunkintrustle family our podcast or if you want to see some stand up with me and johnny pemberton you can go to dunkintrustle.com and right there on the front page are all the dates and the tickets are moving really really fast so please buy tickets now don't put it off just get tickets it helps it helps us figure out how the tour is doing and also it helps you from not being able to get tickets to the show which the last time I did a tour thank you god oh thank you praise a la thank you I don't deserve it thank you god thank you almost every show sold out so that stinks uh if you put it off to the last minute which I always constantly do when it comes

to buying tickets so I can't say I blame you but if you feel even mildly motivated to come out and see a live show um please go to my website and buy tickets now okay hade kushna now everybody please open your third eyes and send great blazing balls of beautiful psychic love in the direction of photographer michael donovan you can check out his stuff at studio donovan.com I will have links at dunkintrustle.com please now welcome to the dunkintrustle family our podcast michael donovan it's the dunkintrustle do

what no I does have a lock but I never knew what it was for what i'm not gonna but no you can't michael hello welcome to the dunkintrustle family our podcast it's so cool to have you on the show the way we met is really interesting really interesting yeah but before we get into that uh I already did an intro for you but I you are an incredible photographer and an artist same thing and your pictures recently I have been trying to get a little bit into photography yeah you asked me for the million-dollar camera yeah I thought you were dicking with me no I thought you were dicking with me because I emailed you asking for a more and more expensive oh right no I was I'm trying to I'm pulling cameras out there

like 35 65 thousand dollars like more expensive I was joking like I sent you well no what I did was I here's what happened everyone michael is a renowned photographer and uh you will see I'll have links to his pictures on the website and you will see that he's an amazing artist and so I thought well I want to get into photography and so I emailed him can you suggest a camera I didn't say an expensive one and you just sent back what was that when your initial response what's that kind called oh which one was it the Hasselblad or I don't know what it was I don't know it was but the camera was like I think it was like a ten thousand dollar camera or something like a like a like and that was your I swear to God you said I want the most expensive one my first

one was a camera and your first response was oh try a like it I'm like oh cool a like it sounds like something I could buy it or a drugstore or something so I look it up it's a ten thousand dollar camera for a point and shoot yeah for a point and shoot uh but for you that anyway before we get into that the point is not you can't just be a photographer like it photography is really interesting to me because it reminds me of the it's there's a it seems so simple it's like I I believe a quote from you and Johnny Pemberton was that the photographers are what is it history's lost artist wow yeah because people see that but it wasn't it wasn't it was from the the piece that you did it was uh let me let me just get you some water let me get you some coke oh yeah yeah yeah

like that dick well you know what man I to all photographers out there I apologize because ever since I've gotten my brother sent me a I don't know a Canon EOS Rebel or some kind of like and I put an a lens on it and I went riding around on my bike trying to take pictures of ducks and uh got home and put the pictures in being like these are gonna look great I'm sure they're just gonna be incredible and it's like the worst pictures you've ever seen they're boring they're stupid ducks it's it's but yeah go ahead they suck so my what I mean is photography is a really cool thing because it looks so easy when you see a photographer you're just seeing a guy with a device that he's pointing in the direction of something interesting collecting and he's collecting and

you look at that and you're like whatever anyone can do that but when you try it yourself it's not like that so can you explain to me what is the process that you use when you take pictures but I think that's okay so backing up I do think that anybody could do it but they have to know they have to stake a claim in what they're doing so you can take shitty photos of ducks and say oh I'm a really good I'm a really good photographer but I might I take photos I do ducks but I make them look shitty so I look like an amateur does them you know and then and then if you get a handful of people like oh that's that's good I like them oh yeah I totally feel that right but obviously as you get better and better you know they're not like they're not the photos

aren't shaky or whatever the hell your problem is is it's how much of photography is a technical understanding of the camera and how much of it is there's so many professional photographers that really don't use cameras I still when I do jobs I'll ask assistants to order the equipment because I don't always there's a piece of equipment called a butt plug and I don't know what it is but it makes yeah it makes me giggle when it's on the the um on the sheet but uh I know I know what I know what it is like I know what a butt plug is but I know what and then I know what a butt plug is but still I don't know because I like I do but I don't because I don't pay attention to the technical side yeah um I do know my technical side but very I keep it very minimum because my

style isn't that style so it's everybody has their own style what is wait what the fuck is a camera butt plug it's no it's it's for the gear it's it's it's for the equipment so it's uh like um yeah I'm not going to be able to describe it see I don't even I can even describe it ask me to describe what it looks like you know no I just read that there it's just interesting that you say that because I did just read this thing about how there's a piece of equipment called a it's called a gag gag or something but it's like a camera inside a vibrator where you could take pictures inside this is what butt plugs look like yeah that's that's the butt plug I'm familiar with I'm very familiar with that that style but I've never heard of it anyway though so there's so

much strange equipment that goes on with this and it's such a weird art form in that sense because it's so very very technical yeah and whenever things become really really technical for me it just feels like it's so easy to lose whatever that initial uh uh inspiration is that makes you want to start doing something you know it can get lost in the gears and the wheels well I think that's the thing is because the camera it is it's it's a handful of gears so it's it can go spin forward and backwards and sideways and left and smaller and bigger there's a lot of that going on but I think that people get caught up in that so you start off with this is this is my my idea is that most people when they pick up a camera they start shooting um it's shit shooting is what I call

and it's shooting shit like rocks yes and uh uh signs signs and get get a get a flower yes after you get your flower get your then you start moving to ducks or you know things that you kind of take a step up you get some good landscape yeah uh and then you eventually you ask your friend can I take a photo of you you know you get to a human being which is a total that's when it gets that's when you realize that it's not technical at all that it comes down to how you're relating to people and you're relating to what they're you know you you have to have an emotional connection to the viewer so they're your audience and if you you have to play a game on how can I get uh this person to do whatever the hell they're doing and then for me to capture that in a way that the audience

will relate to wow because a lot of I feel that what happens is that people get really caught up in the gear and they can make this really great image but it's boring as fuck yes because we've seen it a million times before so that already makes it we're jaded yes and then like we've already seen duck photos you know so so and then you have an idea of how good a duck photo needs to be but if you're thinking of in terms of entertaining your audience and you have that duck you can oh let me just make it even blurrier and call it duck soup yeah and then and then it's like the name is part of the the photo or you know that it changes the story of the of the image yeah yeah I get it and what you're talking about reminds me of um have you ever heard of you've obviously heard of the

observer effect in physics which is that you you know that your perception of the way a thing works on the quantum level seems to have some some effect over the way the thing works this is a problem where the expectation and the quantum level this is something new age people love to talk about yeah is the very expectation of the observer seems to affect things on the quantum level yeah so in that same way when you're when you're taking pictures it's not just that you're taking pictures of the external world you're taking pictures of the way the external world is reacting to you the photographer you're taking a picture of a reaction that's based on you being in the environment so you're even though you might be taking a picture of a duck a flower or a person

yeah you're really taking a picture of a reflection of yourself well and that's the the saying that photographers will say is that uh you never take a picture of the person you're really taking a picture of yourself they say that it's a it's a photographer thing and I know I was a photographer I always looked at a photography is you know photo is light and then uh isn'tography isn't that uh latin for study of so it's a study of light and so and I'm probably fucking this up yeah so someone is somebody smarter than me is gonna tell me that I'm an idiot but this is how I see it so you're a studier of light and then what is light well light is light is like god like god is is energy so you're a studier of of god energy you know so when you take a photo you are you really are you

really just take you know you're taking a an image that will be placed onto instagram or onto uh facebook or wherever or on on your website or on in print but really you are studying something the more that I think that good artists they they're they're study they'll study the world and just happens you just capturing it or collecting it and it's just like putting rocks in a bag that you from a from a trip to the beach you know and you just look at this and oh look at this this red round rock this reminds me of but the red round rock you can understand it if I show it to somebody who doesn't wasn't there at the beach with me right and do you do you find that the when you're collecting these rocks or images do you find that your mood has an impact on the images

if you go into a shoot with a and you're in a certain mood do you think it changes the result I I think that it yes but it's part of the thing where it is it okay yes but but the this is what I found is that the mood isn't the mood of the day so the mood is uh I think we have wider moods it's like climate change and people will look at the weather so today the weather is uh angry and and sad you know the the next day it's happy and fun and the next day is but what I found is that I'll go through and I'll purposely make new make a new body of work so I'll spend a few months looking for a new way to look at the world and when I look at the world through those that lens I'll make it uh I'll come up with words like I'll make it it's the expensive world oh yeah

expensive cool and dark and so for a month I can look through change the filter in my eyes yeah you know in my mind and just pull it out and say well do I want to look at the world as happy and whatever or or right now or recently I went through one that was very moody dark and macabre yeah and so I built this whole body of work wow within two three weeks where it just and then I could see it and I could turn it on and then of course I'm you know hanging out and doing other things and then I lose the that macabre dark moody but I think that if I'm able to do this to myself I know other people can do it too yes you know we can and if we can do it we're probably already doing it right or it's happening to us right and we're not aware that it is happening to us on

you know if I'm able to do this if I'm able to create an image and I know that I can make a dark moody feel that will make you feel dark and moody when you look at it if I get a girl smiling happy in a photo and she's saying in her in her mind I love you when you look at the image you're going to see someone saying I love you right and you're going to feel loved yes so you have to think too what is the media you know especially within my world what's the media what are the messages being sent a lot of it's like it's happy it's good everything's okay bye bye bye you know and not ever slow down and look around and it's okay that you have a bad day and you know it's okay to buy it's okay to to do this shit but but I do think that if we look at our minds in terms of climate

that way I don't know I'm playing with that really cool man it's so it's so it's kind of like to go back to the idea of God being light or light being the you know like the purest form of matter and it's sort you're you have this insane device that's capturing these packets of information or converting them into ones and zeros really yeah converting these things the question is how much information is being stored inside uh inside the device that we don't even understand yet like when you're taking a picture you're taking you know you're taking you're capturing the photons bouncing off of whatever it is that you're pointing the camera in the direction of but what else is inside those photons is it possible that the actual emotional resonance

of the subject mixed in with I think they do so you think that somehow these devices are transforming these packets of information that contain within them not just the physical form of what the weird as that sounds I think that it it's picking up their emotional resonance I think that there's a level of it I don't think I think it weakens it's like taking a copy of a copy but I think that you can if it's um because you have to you know it's it's uh we took photos last night you know we took polarized and when you look at them you get this happiness from it yes and then some people just say see it as others were happy people and then other people will look at it and get that energy and then other people will be angry because it's it's the you know the idea that

what's the word what is that joke that what's the worst what's the ugliest sound in the world it's other people having fun or whatever you know when you're not so it's you're looking at that might make that person angry but there's still I don't think that it's this heavy strong emotion that you know this or energy but I think that there's there's a little weak signal in there that that it could possibly it could possibly because you know we don't know so why not why not just assume that it does I think it's a good idea to think that way this is in sigil magic when they talk about the potency of symbols or the potency of you know if you look at like religious symbols or you look at occult symbols the pentagram for example you look at that thing and it well it

gives you a feeling when you see a when you see the image of a pentagram you you will have an immediate feeling from looking at the thing now a chaos magician uh described this to me he said if you want to understand how powerful symbols are uh put a gun on a table when someone comes over and see what the mood's like in the house and you'll quickly happy time it's gonna be a great party so glad I came to the house with a guy has a gun on the table so the mood instantly shifts yeah so and so that's a symbol the gun is a symbol the gun activates the part of your brain that has a attributed all this stuff to a gun yeah the gun isn't radiating some kind of like dark potency necessarily or is it you look at a pentagram in the same way you're gonna like have a feeling

when you look at that yeah now how much of that feeling is based on what you've are is a based on as you're saying the filters that are already in your brain and how much of that is actually radiating out of the symbol it's a it's just a curious thing because when you take a picture of a person and the person's smiling and you've captured the you're seeing a copy of these photons that were bouncing off of this image turned into ones and zeros you're also it's rolling through all the filters in your brain that what I'm trying to get at is whatever that packet of information that's in there what is the packet of information that's separate from your own internal filter that's the question is there some original new thing added to your

brain like throwing a pebble in a pond or does it all just get lost in your filtration mechanism and then there's nothing happening at all I hope it's the former not the latter because the latter means we're all just our brains and that sucks yeah I don't I think it's it's uh I I'm trying to reassemble my idea of time and uh so I think that if I think that if you took uh it's right now so assuming that time where we have this this history with these memes you know so you have your pentagram meme that's been traveling through time yes and and then it hits today but uh I think that I think that it can change and it's the idea of uh one of the ideas I have with laughter is it's taking two ideas and maybe this has been said by someone before but it's taking two ideas

and you collide them together and that causes the you know that the person that they they get that laughter because it's the sonic boom inside their body of their mind and their spirit and their soul oh shit this is a new way of looking at this thing and so I think that it will travel with stuff but that also can adjust over time it's the you know the color of the story of the color pink with men in blue nope so blue used to be uh feminine and pink was masculine okay and it was uh advertisers in the 50s or 60s that had changed the game and switched it so it was masculine to wear blue and feminine to wear pink so there would have been this meme going along so if you met a man and he's wearing pink like oh that's that's a man tough guy yeah he's gonna kick your ass pink but then it

shifted because somebody said I don't want this to be like this anymore I want this to be different somebody had an idea so somebody had a sonic boom within themselves it said this is going the wrong way or or they were evil and said I'm going to make it my way whatever the hell it was and it's like the idea of uh jaywalking you know jaywalking the way that they you know about this how that started with uh uh uh it it was an advertising agency for the auto manufacturers I believe and it was because cars were you know cars were new and they're ripping through the streets just killing people running over people oh my god so they and people didn't like the cars so so the advertising agencies created radio jingles like watch out for that jaywalker see he's a bad person

and a jaywalker was a bad man because he was lazy and he crossed in the middle of the street and didn't wait for that important car yeah getting its way around yeah so I think that I think that the hold so uh something will be something but then it'll change right so you can so I do think that we are I don't know if we're changing or if it's changing us or if it's just the world but I do think that you know if you wanted to take us any symbol we could change it today we could turn something negative and turn it into a positive take a positive take it to a negative take something that's dull and make it something mean something right so I don't know I don't know who's who's responsible for that's that's that's a question I would have is who's responsible for

changing these things all right you know yeah who is that let's answer the question who is responsible for that man Donald Trump I think he makes a lot of a lot of decisions he's got a tower just like every wizard has a tower have you heard about his his son-in-law over here in the east village no he's his bread this dickhead it's just going through and buying buildings and then just kicking out all the rent controlled people or making it uncomfortable it just but it's great that he's bred more more more dickheads yeah yeah well that is interesting that idea that is a and that's that's that's where you can you you get into the wonderful place of trying to decondition yourself because you start to consider what are the ideas in my

mind that have been implanted there by people like Donald Trump and what are the ideas in that are in my mind that are just original ideas yeah how much of my mind consists of symbols in or rather not symbols because a symbol it just exists like for example the pentagram I was walking on the beach in Georgia and I found a starfish okay or a I'm sorry a sand dollar and on the sand dollar there's a pentagram just a pure slayer pentagram heavy metal that's 666 on his belly no 666 just this pentagram on this fucking sand dollar and I'm like well this sand dollar is evil right that's what the conditioning will tell you but really what you're just seeing is like a recurring geometric form that has been existing since the beginning of time and then the hairless

monkeys saw this recurrent and turn it into something well you know probably initially they looked at it and they were like wow mathematically this is a really interesting shape and also a human has five appendages sticking out from the torso and this must represent human beings and then wow this is like the mathematical pattern of a perfect human form or the human form is some kind of yeah pentagram that's emerging out of the universe that can walk around all that stuff but then somebody was like shut the fuck up you're freaking me out that's just an evil thing to think we're not pentagrams and then it ended up where heavy metal bands you think it came out of fear oh yeah for sure I mean clearly the shape has no there's no evil potency about the pentagram

but if you know youth pastors across America every single day are railing against a geometric form like this that's what the evil satan is used a pentagram those satan has got that pentagram on the sand dollar do you know what I mean so so the question is how many of those instantaneous reactions that you have to the world have been placed there by corporatists industrialists and people trying to actually shape your brain in a way to make you the perfect all over us they're all over us all over us complete our beards are a part of it for me so there was a was it I think it was lever and I can't remember who the other one was they came out with this they didn't call it the war on men but it was the idea of having war on men and so this I you know this

I was shaving my head this is four years ago so shaving my head and shaving my beard and then I heard about this war on men and what it was because they weren't making profits for men so if you're going to make more profits from men what do you what do you do well they got to shave off that hair right you got to get that that going so that's when I stopped shaving my my beard is you know I'll trim it but yes because it I don't want to be too crazy but part of that came from knowing that they just want to sell me razors I don't need to shave my face all right I have no reason but so it's like we literally are wearing results of it because even our decision to have a beard came from somebody personally not personally but impersonally attacking my gender and then what is

gender right you know and and you can go deeper and deeper and deeper into all this stuff on what we are and who we are but I think that a lot of the shit that we do I think that if I always like the idea of stripping it all back throwing us at the caveman days narrowing it down to 50 people yes so if we all went back 50 people or down to 50 people I would be the guy that we would all have a responsibility and we would just go out there and we'd run around and we would collect food and kill animals when we all get back you're the guy that's going to tell the jokes and tell the stories of the day and get them kind of thinking yes I'm the guy that's going to put his hand on the wall and spit on it yeah I made art guys yeah and that's it and we have a handful

of others of of what we're doing but then somewhere it just got so crazy where someone said they started twisting it on us and so that we we feel obligated to to make all of the decisions to wear to wear shoes versus not wearing shoes you you don't have to walk around the city wearing shoes right you have to drive you don't you get in your car do you really need to wear shoes but you feel this need to wear shoes that's fascinating and you don't think about wearing driving without shoes on feels like you're is that against the law I don't know I do it though when I'm in a car I'll kick off my shoes it's great but yeah when you do it you feel like what the fuck this is my toes you don't know if I'll be able to stop right well yeah yeah yeah is this gonna fuck up the functioning

into an accident are they gonna say oh this is caused by no shoes yeah that was it yeah that will be Nancy Grace will be talking about a barefoot car killer but but uh but the the so there's this great idea in the world and it's in every religion and the idea is that certain pieces of the universe are alive disembodied pieces of the universe are alive they're malicious malevolent they climb into us they control us and they call these things demons right okay so whenever people think about this they think about the movie version of the demons the exorcist yeah his head around that guy but if you really think about it you know I love the uh one of my favorite stories in the in the New Testament is the story of Jesus pulling the demons out of a man and putting them

into a pig have you ever heard this story no it's really cool so I mean god damn the New Testament is so psychedelic and so creepy but Jesus is like there's I think it's an island that he's on I'm not really I'm not sure if it's not Jesus is on island the the the uh people there are upset because there's a demon possessed man who's been harassing them and apparently he has all this great strength and he's dangerous and deadly so Jesus comes to uh comes to him and like the demons say to Jesus something weird like you're not supposed to be here yet and he's like it's really as a as a thing like that his ship arrived like an hour early they're just up sour his flight came in I'm still eating my salad I didn't brush my teeth yet I was pooping I really

needed to take a shit before you came in here and then and then he uh uh the the demon said something like the man said something about the demons inside of him wait wait the demon said that the man said no the demon that was in the man said we are Legion and it means that he was not just possessed by one demon he was possessed by uh just a swarm of demons so so Jesus took these demons and he cast them out of the man and into some pigs okay and the pigs went running off a cliff and all died and the you know the I think the villagers were like hey fuck you hippie you just killed all our pigs with the demons that you got out of this dude and they were pissed at him but when I think about demons modern demons I don't what I think of I think how much of a difference

is it when you have a consumer completely brainwashed by the popular conditioning the corporate conditioning and you let you know when you listen to somebody and you hear them say something like you know the United States we're not perfect but we're the best country in the world but you hear that coming out of more than one mouth like so many people will say that until you realize like oh you've been encoded with that you don't you got you got the cold you got the cold yeah you got the cold someone put that in you so yeah yeah you clearly said the Pledge of Allegiance as a child sure over and over every morning yeah yeah so you ever wonder what happened to those kids remember that did you ever have a kid in the class that would not say Pledge of Allegiance no I was never

had that we had a kid that didn't do I bet she's fucking cool now he's probably in Guantanamo Bay getting fucking force fed but the the uh so how many the that's a demon if that's not a demon I don't know the Pledge of Allegiance is no not the input when you say something okay that isn't an original thought yes it's been implanted into your brain by a powerful I would call it a wizard or a necromancer a magician who works for a massive corporation whose job is to implant demons into people that make them pay for things or buy things or say things that promote this product weren't you weren't you was it I was a little drunk last night were you talking about the uh cult brand the cult of branding or culting of brands yeah that was talk about that a little bit

so basically it's um it's you take a brand and there's a cult around it so so you think of the apple you the apple is an easy one because there's fanboys so they you I don't even know where to start with this all brands all successful brands and when I say successful it means that they are making my my version of it would be that they're making enough revenue to continue moving on as as a collective right you know so they can they their product may change or whatever um they may be good-hearted people like toms is a good example of a brand that they treat their employees supposedly they treat their employees well and they do good and they're making basic products shoes and toothpaste right and then there's others that are more nefarious but with

each of the brands you have if you if you want to make a good brand you'll turn it into a cult so you'll have it so that there's just the same with a normal cult you get a specific language you get people to follow it you get people to talk about it you get people uh you get it's just I where am I going with this it's uh you have I because now I have apple stuck in my head I want to move away from apple because I think it's like an easy target but I think it's a great it's a well-known great you know a great take BMW okay this this uh BMW is different it's not it's a little bit more uh separate from but you get people that will think negatively about BMW and people think very positive and

they'll wear a BMW logo yes or and they have they'll meet up other people to have BMWs yes and so so they've succeeded BMW succeeded at creating a cult and they have a but cult is just a culture so there's nothing wrong with a culture it's just that there's different cultures uh and so your culture if you're a Lamborghini or if you're a Prius your Prius people your culture of Prius doesn't really get along with that side that that does like the Humvee culture sure so I think that part of it is accepted these are different cultures I think the way to because there's so much hatred between cults well yeah sure yeah that you're talking about these like little mini paradigms that have been implanted in people's brains by these um here's the reason I think that

even though you're trying to paint the picture is one where it's not so sinister yeah I think that it is a little sinister and the reason it's sinister is that when you're with Apple when you're working at Apple and you're in the marketing department of Apple and you're coming up with phrases or you're looking at the entire scope of the way people think about Apple yeah so when you're sitting there talking you're not just looking at like what's great about Apple you're looking at like what's the controversy about Apple what's the most controversial thing that people say about Apple so that you understand the entire scope because you recognize that you know whenever some controversy springs up you recognize that just always makes more money for the company

you know that the controversy tends to work out for the better because it promotes you publicizes you gets you out there the long and short of it is what you're doing on a daily basis as a marketer working for any for any cult yeah is that you are working on new spells and these spells are called the ad campaigns yeah and the ad campaigns are these assemblages of images video and most importantly slogans that are designed to swim through people's ears get into their brains and yeah just do it and they grow there just like demons and then if you've really pulled it off if you've really really pulled it off yeah then what you do then the demon that lives in the person's mind is this packet of information that consists of a

image and a slogan and an icon an icon it's a logo yeah that person will infect a person near them with a demon and they will begin saying things that they think are their own original thoughts but that has been that the demon is actually working through them so that they start talking about things that are related to the brand for example they might start saying something like you know what man I just don't get PCs it's like they break down all the time yeah really hard to use they get viruses I mean I just don't want to deal with that shit I want to be able to plug something in and it works yeah and you think you're saying that because you've thought of that but there's a small chance that somebody in some you've read it somewhere yes you've you've absolutely

read it somewhere and it's very hard to shut it off yeah from from my world of doing photography and making art I try to not look at stuff but then I have to look at stuff because it's just part of the world that we live in and then I enjoy it too so and it does infect you and then you have the infection and and then there's a part where you know we do we have a jesus to come around and pull the legion out of us and throw it in some pigs yeah do we have that I don't think that we necessarily have that I think that yeah we do do we lsd friend that's true get some ayahuasca down the hatch yeah yes yeah you're right that will get the demons out of you for a second and but the they'll come right back and you know go going to a nice retreat going to a ramdas retreat

meditating this kind of stuff for for a second this the like man I was in um uh when I was in this on this island off the coast of Georgia I remember watching a deer running through the forest and there was a swarm of gnats fought like a cloud of gnats around this poor deer and he's galloping to try to get away from the gnats but every time he stopped they're just surrounding him again so a psychedelic will lift this cloud of symbolic demons that are have used our minds as hives away for a second and during that second you see yourself as what you really are you see things for what they really are and you're like oh fuck I am so conditioned and brainwashed that I don't even know what I am and then before you know it they're back on you

but you you always remember that time where you realize you have that place to escape yes you can always bring it back yeah yeah and and people call the unconditioned state people will call that unconditioned state crazy the word that people have for the unconditioned unbrained wash status so that that right there so this is this is a game that we could play where crazy crazy doing acid in an unconditioned state or just unconditioned state through meditation acid whatever the hell you want to do that is considered crazy so let's play marketer for a second okay if you want to play this game let's do it let's flip that so let's let's create a meme that takes the unconditioned state and makes it something beautiful and love now let's do another that's fun I like that that

makes it something beautiful and love I was going to say let's do it so that it sells coke like if coca cola was like how do we make these acid heads drink more coke like like hey when you're in an unconditioned state free from the corporate symbols that we've infested your mind with what's better than a nice coca cola that's what I needed oh brings you right back down from the unconditioned state get down from their son yeah whenever I want to come down from my unconditioned state that's making me annoy people at dinner parties while I talk about corporate conditioning I drink a nice coca cola I sit down in front of my apple get on my Harley right out into the sunset wearing my dock martins I know what you mean

though man it's really cool to like the idea is like you get this it's like in the same way that like the on you can download how to build an atomic bomb from the internet don't say that in front of my computer yeah like can you imagine you and I trying to assemble an atomic bomb our hair would fall out we know shit our eyeballs would fall out within the first day we have no idea how to deal with that shit but you can take that's the funny thing is that you can take the exact same tactics these dark corporate wizards are using and turn it against them in a way to do what you were saying which is like because the thing is too is when you meet the people that are in those organizations they're not bad people right they are just trying to do a job and and they're a lot of times you

you you when you break it down they're fucking cool people yes they're just they gotta pay rent and when rent just keeps ratcheting it up higher and higher higher it's this thing where sometimes I think that you know I want to blame corporations but then sometimes you step back and like well it's not really the people and then it's the the hive mentality maybe that's what it is but then you have to look at the the effects that are happening to the hive so you know what I'm looking at New York is real estate same thing's happening in San Francisco it's fucking expensive to live out here a tiny ass this a two bedroom apartment in East Village $4,500 yes you know and unfortunately I got mine for not that but can you imagine if you moved out here because you just wanted to be an

artist yes and you had to come up with $4,500 a month and you're a new artist yeah and then you got offered by this company to come up with just come up with shit that people will find catchy and will get stuck in their brain yes like oh fuck I don't but I just want to live here and I want to make art what do I do what do I do and some people are fortunate enough that they have enough integrity that they can fight through that and they're willing to be broke and poor and live in a smaller place and slowly work themselves up with through integrity but other people they're not bad but I think that things like that can affect it that we're not looking at so we'll blame a corporation but we also have to look at this is a this is a being that's trying to survive

and the the parts of it want to live and they have to survive but they're dealing with the environment and the environment is crushing them well yeah I think that's yeah I I I think another version of that is like you find yourself suddenly in the United States military let's say for example you find yourself as an Israeli soldier okay you know and you you look at what you you look at the end effect of like you know being a soldier in Israel right now is it a bunch of kids are dying so the organism that you're a piece of you're if you're in the military if you're a soldier yeah then you're a tiny little cell in the body of a dragon yeah and when you when you recognize I like the idea of the dragon okay it's a dragon I love the the visual of that though yeah

it is it is a dragon and you look at the combined the Gestalt yeah the Israeli military yeah what you have there is a dragon sure as shit if you look at what's happening it's blowing fire on buildings it's dropping bombs on buildings you know it's the dragon is consists of every single every single person is a pixel in this dragon that forms whenever there's conflict or when it when it feels threatened yeah it turns into a dragon like Voltron it assembles all these little pieces and flies over cities and into ends up indiscriminately killing kids yeah so you're one little it's called diffusion of responsibility because you're not the dragon itself and you're one little cell in the dragon just doing my job yeah I'm just I'm just processing I don't I don't yeah yeah well and the thing that's

always scary to me too is that if the if the dragon flipped and started breathing fire on its tail yes you know and it's uh it's if if just bad shit went down and would would the would military soldiers have the would they would they okay the FEMA death camps let's play with this okay so imagine that you're some 18 year old kid from South Carolina and you know you have a conscious you've been listening to Duncan you've been listened to you know for years you're you're just you're doing the right thing but you're joining the military because it's an option yeah it's the most feasible option that you have so you go in there and uh fast forward two years and the entire time you're doing just doing good for you you're meditating you're doing your thing yes but now

your boss says we actually are going to do a war on your own country on our own people yeah because we just can't we we can't feed the people we can't water the what the hell they can't do so will that kid how how would that kid get out how would that kid be able to and also infect that group to say we're not doing this because I think once they realize that they can't do it to their mother like we need you to go back home and we need you to slaughter your entire family yeah that kid knows that that's not right but he's hearing it from above I have to do it yeah so he's he has to make a decision but if they can start if people can start seeing that they're a part of this dragon that's just firing dragon at or firing fire at their brother or sister across the enemy

line which they are exactly it what would be needed to be implanted what meme or what icon or logo what would we what what slogan would we need to install to get them to stop fighting I yes I think I think it's the the meme that I named Carolee Baba said which is love everyone serve everyone remember God so the idea is if you just follow that and if you don't believe in God you could say remember the you know if you you have to eventually you're going to have to renounce your nationalism no matter where you live and I think that's going to happen so much easier for people I think that we're going to see in the next five ten years borders disappearing renounce your national identity that's the first thing renounce your national identity sacrifice your culture abandon

whatever conditioning mechanisms have created a sense of separation between you and some other group embrace the idea that you're an earthling not an american israeli palestinian exactly whatever we're living on earth together and it's a beautiful beautiful planet and it's so wonderful to be here that we don't need to be killing each other anymore so what once people start realizing that which is the truth that's the truth outside conditioning once you start realizing that oh fuck man I got tricked by a bunch of old violent brainwashed vampiric demons they implanted a bunch of ideas into my head that are completely wrong clearly i'm just an earthling clearly there's no canada or united states or mexico there's just this one beautiful swath of land with a bunch of people

living on it and so i'm an earthling so then the next time your commander comes to you and says hey man i need you to like fire bomb this orphanage or whatever it is they they're asking you to do you say no and you get arrested or you get shot you give up your life for the planet that's the idea is that if it's it's like another way to put it is at some point with israel and palestine somebody has to have this realization realization which is i would rather my children get murdered than be a child murderer that's the thing because the idea is that if you think they justify their violence by saying they want to kill our kids so they say the way we're going to stop people from killing kids is by killing kids so it's a bad form it's bad

logic you know the thing is that the logic if you fall is like yeah that makes sense that makes you just kill them they won't kill our kid yeah it makes sense but it's just it's it's it's it's global it's what is it's globalized child abuse that happened generations and generations and generations ago so you have somebody's great great great grandfather who got into a fight you were telling me yesterday about the the two guys that speak only one language yeah they're the last two on the planet and then they don't want to talk to each other so they're thousands of years two dickheads that got into a fight like that and it just spread and it just got wider and wider and wider that's it that's it so i think if we just like we're look i've been abused and

you've been abused everybody's been abused we're all we all react to our abuses and we don't realize that we do these things they're all in us and it's like and you do these things sometimes you just i really shouldn't be doing this but you it's just this like i have to do this thing and you're feeling guilty while you're doing it or whatever and the shame or whatever uh but it's it's you know noticing it being aware once you have that awareness step back and you know when and then i think i think that if we just agree with everybody that look i know that you've had some shit that your mom had shit your father had shit and your great grandparents had shit let's just try just today just to walk away from each other and get along

yes you know let's just let's just let's not we don't need to sleep in the same bed together tonight we let's just i'm just gonna go for a walk we need some space we need some space we all need to go on a global walk well you know like here's one like okay if i say to somebody who's been really conditioned in whatever country they live in yeah i come to them and i say would you be willing to die for your country and they will say yes i would i would die for my country but if i go up to the shooter right there yeah right oh here we go that's not the solution but if i go to someone and i say would you be willing to die for your planet they'll be like hell no what am i some kind of commie i would die for my country but not my planet but it's people have to really have to move

from their heads from the idea which is quite accepted and considered a heroic trait to want to die for your country yeah to if it's heroic to die for your country isn't it 15 million times more heroic to die for your planet and if it is more heroic to die for your planet and you really feel like that and you're a soldier in whatever military you happen to be in then what you would do is the idea and this would this this would horrify sharon and this would horrify hamas leaders and whoever is trying to engineer these terrible wars if the people realizing the that they would die for their planet poured out into the streets and laid down just like what martin luther king suggested lay down if palestinians came out and instead of hiding and cowering and uh not cowering

i'm sorry that i said that but i would be cowering if i was i would i would be cowering i didn't mean that as though they're cowards i meant instead of being in these buildings they're being a human being i would fucking cower if they went out into the streets yes and laid down and here i am railies went out in the streets and laid down all the people yeah just went out and laid down the soldiers put their guns down the people dropped their bombs knowing i'm going to die today but when i die today i'm dying for my planet and i'm dying for a world where these mother these old demonic vampires no longer control us you would see the fucking color drop out of the faces of these warmongers because what do you do now yeah now you have to make now and there's video

of bombs being dropped on just groups of nonviolent protesters they're doing that no if they did oh they did okay one bomb drops on a group of nonviolent protesters and that gets filmed and distributed and distributed and seen and seen which it would which it would then whoever dropped that bomb immediately loses the war they've lost the war there's no coming back from that when you drop a bomb on a ewan orphanage which they just did or ewan's shelter and killed so it's the opposite of a suicide bomber it's a suicide receiver it's a suicide protest which is a oh my god yeah it's it's the old monks that would light themselves on fire but that's it i think that yeah because it's if you know would you dive for your planet or even more it's like would you

die for yourself yeah you know and you know that's what acid does you die you die i have this idea that every time you go to bed at night you die and you wake up and you're in this new incarnation so you just kind of pop in and pop out i used to i remember as a kid i'd watch my dad like is he gonna be the same person when he wakes up but then you know if you think about it when he went to bed he's kind of like this like i'm tired and a little cranky and stuff and he'd like fall asleep on the couch watching tv and then he'd wake up and he's groggy total different type of character but he's still part of this incarnation but when we do we die i think we die at night and we are reborn and when you do acid you die there's a big part of you that has to die yes and if you're

already going to be dying or parts of you traits of you uh uh demons are dying yeah i think that asking these these these guys or these kids or whoever the hell just just go just die for yourself yeah that's a that's a that's a bold question ask somebody would you die for yourself or would you die for your planet but die die for it you would you or even more would you die to save some kids like you know you hear like whenever there's like uh what okay when somebody gets a purple heart or what no it's the now what's the big highest honor you can get in the military it's called the national medal of like it's a national medal of honor yeah it's for people who have thrown themselves on a grenade usually or have like done some incredible thing

where they have given up their own lives to help the people around them right and they get the highest honor right but they only get that if they do it for their military you wouldn't get that if you did it for another in other words if you're on the quote enemy yeah and a grenade was thrown at the enemy and you threw yourself on the grenade then you would be that's that's okay so these the the the kids in the military that are defectors because they're so like they can't handle it anymore that's a good way to defect if you're going to defect don't defect by by walking off and then having people search for you and causing a whole shit storm back home instead go get yourself killed and protect the protect people protect human beings or you're just like yeah i'm just going to start

protecting people now i'm not going to protect the right color people or the right the people who speak the right language or the people who worship the right religion i'm going to do what i can to protect all people and in comic books you know this every single superhero if there was a superhero that was like no i'm not going to protect this this swath of people because they're islamic or i'm not going to protect these the heroes are the ones who give up their lives in it to protect innocent people so basically and by the way this isn't my idea this is like when you watch any martin luther king's speech or any nonviolent protest or look at what gondy did and look at the effect that nonviolence nonviolent resistance has in the face of oppression you see that it just

works yeah because you know is israel's already experiencing it and there isn't the the problem is whenever they find missiles underneath the schools that the israel's blown up it justifies for some group of people it's like see you had to kill them yeah but if there's no missiles there if there's just people protesting non-violently getting slaughtered then the way the world is right now is tightly wound as the world is right now and as is connected as we all are yeah holy fuck it would work so well it would it's it's so much more powerful than bombs and what's another way because i i'm a pussy i don't want to see people dying i don't want to see people i don't want to give people i don't want to give people the the advice to go out there and become martyrs

for for freedom in a way that could kill them what would be what would be another way that we could you know what would be another suggestion that we could throw out there to i really i just i'm just picturing these kids i just picture some in some old man and just sitting around their their their ipod or their iphone listening and i want to give them i don't i'd love to give something what would be the ideal advice where i mean i guess that that is good advice but how can we do it how would we do it you're already here's the thing if you live in pal if you're a palestinian right now yeah since they're bombing the shelters you're you're in it you're a target already yeah you the problem the problem with that conflict is that

there's closed borders yeah so you have these people living in a place that's about the size of manhattan from what i've read okay the borders are closed they they've closed off the uh the ocean so you are in so you're just a big pain just waiting to be exterminated wow and so so i'm i'm not i'm not as aware i'm just you're being exterminated so you are in a situation where you don't know where to go because they just bombed a shelter and they killed i don't know i can't remember how much it was it was like 130 kids 50 kids i can't remember a lot of kids died from this bomb so now here you are in this it's like you're we're in manhattan together getting bombed and people are telling you here's a safe place to go it's you in place if they're not

going to bomb it you go there and you get bombed so now it's like oh well we're just getting exterminated so the the answer if you if you can't the answer would be you know if you don't want to if you don't want to fight back yeah if you don't want to fight back get the fuck out of there if you can't figure out a way to escape yeah get the fuck out of there right because the uprising isn't working shooting missiles it is real clearly isn't working you're out gunned you're out manned there's nothing you're gonna be able to do therefore if you can't get out of there and you're already in a situation where you're gonna die then it seems like you'd want to figure out a way to get as many people to join together and do marches and peaceful protests and i say

strip it down i say they all seriously strip it i now is seeing that that makes more sense strip it down i i think they should just take all their clothes off and all walk naked where they become so fucking human there you go where just completely look old young uh all their color all of that take it all away just human fucking beings just walking and i think they should just walk they should just they should just walk they should just continue walking and just walk it off and walk will they wait because what is it real walk into israel yeah walk naked into israel with your arms stretched out and and and like well i don't know what it is and god forgive me because i really don't know like i don't know what i don't know what your son because i know some people

over there and i don't know if they have internet now do listen to this podcast and having been having like i remember like somebody emailed uh joe and i because they from palestine and they were talking about how there was bombs going off this was a while ago and they listened to our podcast and like ever since then you know it humanizes people so much they're just people and the people in israel are just people and then you that one then when these bombs are hitting it like creates something worse than anger in me it creates just this sense of like i don't know what it is man it's something that feels like heartbreak and then you're like well what the fuck do you do what do you do you have to you i think that that you have to um play commercial for apple yeah guys we're

going to cut to a commercial for apple real quick i'm going to tell you what you do to solve the middle east crisis but first let's cut to an apple commercial i don't know what you do man but i don't know i think i think that i think that it needs i think that the fighting fighting fighting fighting back and forth that's not going to end it i think it does need to be so somebody just needs it it's i think we have the potential to watch it change in front of our lives for the the first time because we do have i mean i look at podcasts as pirate radio you know it's it's great because it's i mean it's it's yeah it's pirate radio so so yeah if you just walk around naked renounce your national identity if you're an israeli and walk right just keep walking right through if you're palestinian

renounce your identity everybody get out into the streets as quickly as you can you need a very charismatic person among you who can like who can speak in an articulate non shrill uh hippy way the way that i get get get a child to speak for you there you go get get the children to sing a song that puts the world to tears that's it that's what you need you need stuff like that that's it and the more you do that you know and they're already i mean i don't know if you saw there was a huge protest here in new york um a bunch of acidic jews gathered together to protest what israel was doing it requires like in paris they fucked up because they started burning i think they were burning synagogues and stuff you know it's violent wow violent if imagine this imagine if martin

lucer king had i don't know i'm sure you've looked at these because you're a photographer but you've looked at these pictures of the well-dressed black people in the streets of alabama getting hosed getting hosed and beaten awful and those images yeah were so much more powerful than if those black people had instead of being hosed had been kicking the shit out of the cops because the moment that they had done that then everything's over there there is a part i have you know the saying an image speaks a thousand words but i think it speaks a thousand languages i think if you get a strong enough image people will resonate it's going it you don't need to put a caption you people just can read it i i almost feel that it would be great what was it it's

something like august 27th or something like that there was the do you remember the the 60s they had that disney the acid disney thing no what was that so um it's this a bunch of hippies went to disney and they announced we're going to go to disney and drop acid wow and uh the national guard was called in wow that's hilarious i mean i don't i'll butcher the story but uh i'm sure people can google that but it's they just they showed up there was not very many they thought there was going to be like 30 000 people and it was like 200 yeah just dropping acid and having a good time and just enjoying the rides until they started working like clockwork and just moving everybody out and shut down disney at 6 p.m. oh my god but it would be great to go to these to to have

some kind of it's almost like you know improv everywhere yeah you know how they just do goofy shit yeah what if there was an improv everywhere for activism but the activism isn't just weird it was it's like humans everywhere so on the the the the anniversary of that yeah that date what is it a shit ton of people go to disney with the purpose of stripping down and protesting and walking all the way through or you know and then where else would they go i don't know disney disney land disney world's all like think of but just or or or whatever or because i think that you know people will put there i think we've just lost sight of humanity and because we are wearing these cloaks we're wearing these disguises and these and and again i don't think there's anything

wrong with people dressing up and having their own style and wearing you know it's it's a very conflicted part for me working in industry so close to commercialism and so close yeah to to it all and so i can respect both sides but there is a part where there there are people that go so far about it and they i i think we've lost our identity with humans it's it's like going into someone's house that doesn't have plants i think that we're a society that doesn't see people yeah we see identities crazy we're people blind yeah we just see two eyes wrapped up you know and in the summertime we see skin yeah uh there's eyes somewhere you know right but i think that just we i think that if we i think that would be a great thing too to show solidarity is every

everybody start finding their thing in cal and canada they can go to the calgary mall or some shit and and do this but everybody just i like humans everywhere i think that's really cool man and i think what that what you would need is like because i i was thinking like i was getting so so angry about uh and so dismayed like i've i've just been fixated on this shit happening over there uh and also the stuff in the ukraine and the fact that somebody just blew a plane up with kids in it uh and i was kids and aides researchers yeah that like you don't know about no i know about yeah though i just thought just the flight was that although it was missing although it was missing was like panda babies being transported just just it's it's just a plane of love and goodness yeah

coming everyone's stone coming from amsterdam it's like these aides researchers kids yeah yeah it's but i was thinking like i for a second i was thinking of like and i know this is all just so in a way it's empty but i think anything that i know a lot of people get mad at like social networking protesters or social networking activism because it seems so lame or weak or something but i think anything's better than nothing and i was thinking about and you feel so helpless anyway when you hear about this shit that you don't know what to do but for a second i'm like all right i'll just change my twitter uh avatar to a palestinian flag and then i realized like no because when i do that i'm taking sides which is why humans everywhere it'd be really

cool if somebody came up with a a symbol for that so that you could so that you you are aligning yourself not with any national identity just a skin poor yeah that's it just a skin poor everybody's got when you might i was taking a hand someone's missing a hand i i don't know this black and white skin maybe someone will come up with it you know sometimes we spew these ideas out here and people come up and actually like fall through with them so you never know sometimes like people will like do stuff but some way for people to like you know it'd be so cool is like a something you could say that's kind of blasphemous if you're super conditioned where you renounce your national identity and uh become an earthling you know you like you use some kind of oath or a pledge of

allegiance that isn't based on your national identity or an oath you take or some weird thing you say yeah where you permanently renounce forever your national identity and just consider yourself an earthling from now on that'd be pretty fucking cool you know like just you know whatever your national symbol is you like publicly destroy it so that people understand that you're no longer but that's a violent act so maybe that's not maybe maybe just an easier way is just a transition into it because you you do need it's like when you leave a cult uh and they bring in those this specialist that will help you transition and there's it's it's not you don't walk away from the cult and see your family and suddenly life is perfect you you have withdrawals from it yeah so there is

a transition and there's a window and and to respect the people that are still in it so that you're not i hate you because you still have that america you just know they're in a cult you just know that they're in a cult and to walk away and so yeah it's the culture of humanity moving toward the culture of humanity uh and maybe maybe wasn't there was a language wasn't there a language uh asperand yeah what if that was brought back yeah you know it's it's uh uh these languages that are dying what if we took a language that was meant to bring everybody together and just ever just learning this yeah what if it was and we had uh teachers that would teach this and we just moved because everybody's technology is going to take care of that you know because what's going to happen

is remember did you ever read hitchhikers go to the galaxy i never read it oh it's really funny one of four people that haven't there was a thing there there's actually a website called babel fish where you could put in any language and it'll translate that language instantly but that comes from hitchhikers guide because there's a little fish you could put in your ear called a babel fish and it would change any language into the language that you understand so i think technology is going to take care of that by making it so there's an instantaneous when you could you could like have headphones in that whenever anyone around you is talking it immediately will convert into your language so we so instead of having to go through the process of learning a whole new

language yeah we'll all we'll all in technology will be the new language technology is the new language yeah you know that's our that's our connective neural connect connect connective tissue but man how much time shit we what time is it it's uh it's been an hour we got off course here yes uh before we wrap this thing up i meant to talk because we even didn't even talk about your job as i just said you were a photographer but you're like a fat you shoot for models you're a fat you're a but i'm not a i'm i don't think i'm a fashion photographer i don't know no i think people people lump me in that community but because i shoot with models but i'm not i don't see myself as a fashion photographer i don't really care about the

fashion as much i have some fashion clients uh but mine is more about art and ideas or concept they're just beautiful images or this is what i wanted to ask you okay regardless of i'm sorry i know i didn't mean to like shove you no no no no no no no and i said cheesy question so and just you're a fashion photographer when i ask it you don't have to you know you know anytime you've seen joe's uh fashion photographer bruce testinos no he made this video it was when he had hair of bruce testinos this fashion photographer hilarious i've been seeing that i'll send it to you can put it up too it's it's hilarious anyway here's my question for you yeah god forgive me it's such a cheesy question but i thought about it yesterday and it kept popping it in my head i

just want to ask you this so forgive me it's such a dumb question it's like a miss america question can you since you're you're always working with like really beautiful people and your photographer i want can you define beauty for me what is beauty i'm sorry that is a tough one yeah it's a little cheesy no kidding it's good and no it's a good one because i think that there's and there's there's cheesy responses well we're all beautiful um yeah and you can go off of some people will measure it through they'll try to measure it through i can go this actually is a good question because i can break some of the the shit because they've done whole documentaries on beauty and they brought in photographers um who are just staring at people

but i do think that i think that because okay so you you get these attractive attractive women right yes and they're symmetrical but then you meet some of them and they're they're so beautiful inside but then you know they're others aren't aren't you know so you can't take the beauty of the face value that takes that away i sometimes think that what happens though i think there's attractive and then there's beautiful and so beautiful is pretty general and i think everybody has beauty somewhere and then when you get into attractive then we're dealing with symmetry and things like that right that that cut away with it but i think that beauty is uh it it's it is the question that

we all get asked and i've never i i don't think i've ever been asked this question though and i see other people respond to it and i always think ah that's so stupid it's an impot maybe it's an impossible question to answer i think but i think it's a discussion though because i think that people will have an idea of what it should be because of what they've seen and one of the things that i do is from my work is that i try to find things that are interesting because i find that beautiful yeah so i have a buddy that i brought on my podcast who does beauty photography and his beauty he after we stopped the recording we talked a little more and it was he or maybe we did it on the the podcast but he talks about how he wants very clear beauty and i like interesting

looking people so when i cast models i want somebody who has like big lips or big eyes or some something special about them that makes it more more interesting yes um but then i'll also find cases you know and i and it's uh i got contacted by an agent to shoot uh this 35 year old olympic former olympic swimmer kasey legler who has this huge following of people because she was the first female model to work on the men's board uh on the what men's board so as a male model oh wow whoa yeah and she's just an interesting character so they contacted me to shoot her and she had just shot with the two other cast bird and uh ryan mcginley so two big photographers that have been around forever and then they asked me to and i basically built her book and i

brought her in a couple times to build this and it was so fascinating i mean her world is fascinating because she's she's she's interesting so that is beautiful so i shot her to look like a man and i shot her to look like a woman but not like oh it looks like a man it was this is a character so i made her look like uh she's in the 1980s hanging out on the street when uh her business is not going well you know whoa and and so it's it looks interesting or she's she's got a nine to five job in midtown um so that's interesting to me and um there's this girl that i just recently saw her name is boy child and she's a performance artist and she smothers her face with paint and does all these crazy things and that's more interesting yeah to me and that's beautiful

because it's somebody who's has something inside and so a lot of times when i when i work i work off of the the character and the personality and the person and i don't really you know of course some people are more attractive and so it draws you in yeah and if i'm doing just a visual you know just a visual on the body or the face works for it that's that but i really like the people that have something going on that's just different you know even when i shot you that was the reason why is because it's like you're a beautiful person you're a beautiful you're beautiful who's a pretty boy who's a pretty but you know you know it's it's you have something beautiful going on and uh and rom das i sought that shoot out because it's beautiful and then sharing you

know it's it's on paper if you said that if you asked a fashion ask talk to a fashion photographer or let me tell tell them i'm i'm going to hawaii and i'm going to shoot an 82 year old man who had a stroke who had a stroke in a wheelchair uh and i'm going to shoot a woman who's larger yeah and her what is she 50s 60s uh you know Sharon Salisburg Sharon Salisburg and i fucking love them they're so beautiful and when i told rom das that we're shooting you for a fashion magazine he's like what are you talking about i mean i look like this is he looked at me that's what he said this is fashion it's sitting by the pool like yeah it's fashion well it is it and it really you know because because it's kind of like the the the to me one of my favorite things about being

around rom das is within 30 seconds to a minute of being around him you're not seeing an 80 year old man who's in a wheelchair at a stroke yeah you're just seeing love and the physical form seems to be just some something that that that that is barely able to like surround this thing that's pulsating out of him yeah and that to me is such a relief to recognize that no matter what your age is no matter what your physical condition is it is irrelevant yeah when you connect to that deeper part of the self and really uh have the courage to just let that come out and not cover it up like you're saying with the clothes that you wear or the things that you veil yourself in when you just like are your personality traits or what are your rather your

ego mechanisms when that thing's shining out you you really it doesn't matter what you look like you could theoretically be a reanimated human turd yeah some evil biologist brought to life if you've tuned into the love inside of all things and that's shining out of you chances are people aren't gonna well they're gonna see the turd but not for long it's gonna you're just gonna see the love coming out it's amazing yeah and i yeah i think that and and absolutely and you think you can capture that energy on camera well some stuff is so ineffable you can't do it i was i did a project out in the cascades and so the art director or a friend of mine was oh shoot the cascade or shoot the mountains like and i'd shoot it and i can't really i can't capture this yeah i'm

just gonna enjoy the moment because i can't i can't capture this and there's a part where maybe i'm just not technologically advanced enough to capture the the wonder and the beauty and everything of the mountains and when i look at the photos that i did with ramdas it's i captured what i could capture and there's a little bit of it but there is still like i said earlier it's just a little bit because there's so much more when you're around that and when you're in that energy you glow yeah and and it feels it there's this expansion it's like going going there is an expansion pack it's that part of the matrix where they plug you in instead of learning martial arts you learn to i'm gonna accept myself that's incredible that's a great way to put it you mean where they plug

you in and like yeah they teach you all yeah exactly i need to learn how to fly a helicopter yeah you're getting encoded with something that you don't even i still don't understand but what it does shift you in the same way like a green psychedelic trip does it it will transform you and the the the um the i think there's something good about the fact that you can't capture all of that that you that it's that there is a need to be around a person uh what do they call it darshan there is a reason that you need darshan with a person darshan is the term they use for when you're around a deity or when you're around a guru or saint they call it darshan okay and and it's sort of like it's this is what i think about with live comedy versus tv comedy when you're

watching tv comedy you're seeing the language you're seeing the mannerisms the acting of the comic but when you see live comedy you're picking up a whole other thing coming out of them it's a big big difference and so yeah there's only a certain amount you can capture but um and then and then you also screw with it once you get into editing and i don't just mean you know with photoshop and all of that but also the layout of how it's how is it distributed and how is it seen that can also affect it you know that television show it's when you see it live it's all around you and how you have somebody laughing behind your head yeah you know that's a vulnerable thing to have somebody cackling behind your head you know and and all and surrounding you uh well you're also releasing

your thing and when you're sitting in front of a television that's uh been edited down and taken the the cleanest spot so yeah it's um there there is something what is it darshan darshan darshan darshan sounds like a good name for a kid oh darshan yeah that's a great perfect thing to close this on um thank you so much for being on being on the podcast thank you and thanks for a lot of other things which i'm not gonna yap about here because it's embarrassing but you know what i'm talking about what are you talking about now what's the um can you uh can you uh tell my uh the people listen the let me just start over i'm gonna have to edit that because it sounds so retarded like can you tell my list like they're mine tell my bitches can you tell can you tell the people listening

how they can find you okay my website studio donovan and then uh so go to studio donovan.com and then i have a tumblr and it's all linked on there what about your book i have my book god and drake and uh named after ramdas's quote treat everyone you meet like god and drake uh which was a very interesting to try to explain that to people because they had just seen me shoot kasey legler and thought you're doing some drake stuff now boy oh boy but um no i have my book god and drake it's sold on the website um and or there's a link to it on the website everything's on the website and then i'm also doing my podcast that i'm just starting uh and i don't quite have a name for it yet i'm still you you're gonna have to help me with that god and drake i can't do god and drake

because i want to have it just a slightly different i did think walking home from ramdas's quote uh we're all just walking each other home but then i'm from spokane washington and spokane means children of the sun yeah which sounds very hippie bringing everybody and i'm just children of the sun welcome to the children's or then i thought uh sun people could like so i'll work it out they're all good those are all children of the sun's pretty badass it's hard to name something though it sure is man it really is it in but it'll come to you and you'll know when it's right like it'll just pop into your head and you won't be able to forget it i was gonna name my book just the tip were you really i'm glad you went with god and drake well um i'll have links to all that stuff

up on the website thank you so much man i hope you'll come back and do it again definitely okay harry christina thanks for listening everybody and a big thanks to harry shave club for sponsoring this episode of the dugga trestle family our podcast if you like the podcast please give us a nice rating on itunes go through our amazon portal and go through any portal that looks good to you this week see you guys next time bye