Duncan Trussell Family Hour - MY MOM part 2

Episode Date: March 18, 2013

Duncan chats with his dying mom.

Hello friends, and thank you for tuning in to the Duncan Tressel family hour podcast. I'm not gonna do any intro or Commercials for this episode. We're just gonna jump right into it stands on its own if this is your first time listening to the Duncan Tressel family hour you can find more information about the podcast at DuncanTressel.com Today's guest is a therapist writer and a mystic

She Also created me inside of her stomach Everyone, please welcome to the Duncan Tressel family hour podcast my mom We're rolling hello Hello, Duncan. Hello mom so we are We are in a bit of a different Place than we were the last time you were on the Duncan Tressel family hour. Yes, we are

You want to talk about what's different now? What's different is When you were here in September, I Was dying, but it was more of a hypothetical construct to me than What it is now because what it is now is that I am in bed and I have oxygen And I can feel tumors in my liver and Pinging bone pain all over my body So a lot of the physicality of dying is with me now. It was not with me in September when we had our first

podcast together so there the reality of it is It's now a real thing Now it's not last time it was something that at least for me it felt like it was easy to it to Trick yourself into thinking that it was not you, but it was for me. It was like well this seems avoidable Yeah, I Don't think it felt avoidable to me then but I've just moved into a different stage of dying

sort of actively dying now Even though that sounds like an oxymoron it does can you can you talk about that what what that means? It's really interesting. There's there a bunch of things that are happening that make it like that one of them is that Actively dying means that I can actively perceive my Physicality changing so I can I can feel That the physical is disintegrated Has disintegrated and is disintegrating minute by minute and

It's in a particular way that doesn't have anything to do with my planning how it's going to go That's one thing that's happening, but also the as the physicality goes through its Sort of innate intelligence About what to do under these circumstances. There is a shining brightness in me that is Becoming more illuminated or really may be just more exposed as the physical becomes weaker and more diminished What I'm noticing as a brightness inside that

shines brighter and Those are two things that are happening and They're in conjunction. I'm putting them together because they're in conjunction with each other the physicality seems to be related to the revealing of the lightness of the human being is

The is that lightness that you're talking about is that do you think that that's your true identity or your soul or how would you Cat term that what is that lightness? Well, it feels true So in a sense it has a sense of me in it because it's still associated with me in this body And yet it doesn't to say that it's mine would be wrong. It doesn't belong to me It just happens to be showing up more clearly because I'm less focused on my various attachments to all the physical stuff which has been one of the

Stunning things that I never considered when I came here was all the various filings and all the Amazing amount of work that goes into organizing your life before you die It shocked and horrified me to be honest with you when I got home from the island got back to North Carolina from the island And immediately was immersed in banking things and legal things and

Center for end-of-life transition things and hospice that I was dismayed because I had spent my life more and more as a in a monastic environment where meditation and Solitude and silence and stillness Filled my day and now suddenly at the end of my life all the things that seemed all the things that I had moved away from where it forced back into my attention and I feared that it would be like that for the rest of my life and I thought this is not

Surely this is not possible that I'm gonna be thrust back into the world here when I am wanting to Lie still and be with what's happening But yeah, but you still have to it's like in the way that you're talking about your physical body is beginning to Shutdown you had to actively shut down The your world you had to start dismantling every piece of your world Really simple mundane things little credit cards Bank stuff stuff that for a person who is about to cease to exist as a body Seems pretty irrelevant, but that was it's kind of as an example of what you are who you are as a person because a lot of

People I think would just be like screw this. I'm just gonna die. I don't care about Organizing right now Kind of a heroic thing that you did. Well, I don't I don't want to leave it to you and your brother to have to do I think that's unfair So I want to get it done and how in the world are you supposed to know that I have some Macy's card that needs to be Closed or a Belk's card that needs to be closed. I mean these are obscure things that you wouldn't know So these are calls that I have to make and then I have to call Medicare and and say can I throw All of these papers away or how long do I have to save them after I'm dead and

I have drawers and drawers full of these Medicare papers and the woman said you don't need to save them at all We have copies. Wow So, yeah, this is this is kind of the to me one of the I would say of all the Aspects of you dying it is the one that is the most shocking to me is just that The revelation of how little in this culture There is we're set up for death. It's something that no one tells you about this No one teaches you how to go through this

It's just a thing that you're sort of supposed to instinctually figure out and Instead of there being a place set up where this you don't have to go through this It's just this kind of it reminded me a lot of when I'm In the midst of like when I had to have my surgery and when I got sick It reminded me a lot of the suddenly realizing that I didn't just have to worry about getting radiation I had to worry about filling out countless forms to make sure that my insurance would cover it and it's the material world is rude It is not only rude, but it pushes in on us in an amazing way so that and it pushes in at itself I remember there was something that

Bet Your brother and I were trying to close and it heads. Oh, it had some kind of 24 months Oh, I know it was direct TV and it had a 20 month 24 month Service program and we wanted to close it down and the woman said well, you know, you're gonna be fine $20 a month or something like that for this being closed down And we got hung up the phone and I said wait just a minute. Am I gonna be fine after I'm dead? $20 a month for shutting down my direct TV. Thanks direct TV awesome company, so

We called back and direct TV said in fact no, but you're going to have to have Power of attorney, you're gonna have to have a death certificate You're going to have to have a proof that you're the executor and then you're gonna have to send us all of those papers And then we will talk about releasing you from this contract So this is the this is where we are now. This is the physical world This is where we've gotten to as a society is that in in this moment There is this hilarious. It reminds me of The story in the New Testament where they were trying to trick Jesus into saying don't pay taxes and they

Somebody came to him and said, you know, what about? What about? What about basically ask them aren't you supposed to pay taxes? Do you have to pay taxes to Caesar and he said show me what's on the on the coin and They showed him the coin and of course Caesar's face is on the coin and Jesus says Give what is Caesar's to Caesar an indication of like this is nothing This is stupid pointless matter yet. It's still something you have to engage in if you exist in the world the thing that You do have to and I know a lot of people die and they haven't been able to do this for their children

And it's a mess, but my intention is to be able to get this done too Is great an extent as possible so that you all don't have to deal with it. Thank you I know that you've been doing that and it's been a heroic you see that people don't understand that As your body begins to Shut down The levels of there's a new kind of heroism that starts happening, which is that when your body isn't processing oxygen anymore Making a telephone call is not just making a funk is not what it usually is Because you're you you're having problems breathing

So it's sort of like imagine having to take care of all your bills While being at the top of some gigantic Deoxygenated mountain in the middle of a snowstorm. That's what it's like So you have to have a very strong will to go through through that But we've pushed through it. It seems like and now you're in a more peaceful place. You've been able to you're laying in bed You we've taken we've wrapped everything up and now you seem to be at least you guys were not filming this But she just rolled her eyes So I'm assuming there's well, you would never be finished mom if you there's the upstairs

This is the attic in the attic Duncan. We have a marshal feels catalog from 1810 You haven't even seen it. We have boxes full of postcards from the 1800s. Yeah, we have dresses from God knows who from the 1700s. You have not even seen the attic I've seen the attic. I know but you haven't looked in those boxes Well, no, I have not gone through the boxes yet, but I my order of priorities is Different than your order of priorities. I my that's an obligation to my ancestors I have an obligation to my sons and one to my ancestors your ancestors. Yes You feel obligated to the ancestors. I feel obligated if not to all the ancestors to my mother. Yes

Do you think that you are do you have an impression a lot of people say that when they're Dying they they begin to feel the presence of people who've already died. Do you feel her presence or you've you begin to have any kind of mystical experiences or A sense of what's waiting for you I don't have it filled in at all I sense my mother's presence, but I also sense These ancestors presence and when I started writing my obituary yesterday, which was on my list I realized that I wanted to say that my roots

were entwined with Not only the oak tree that is going to prohibit me from having any kind of Entrance into that soil But also the roots of the ancestors that had lived there since the 1700s from both sides of my family Almost everybody has lived in that place and has been buried in that place And I feel they're welcoming. I feel their Gratitude for the various ancestry

things that I've done for them over the years and For saving their clothes and for finding them interesting and for finding their lives interesting So I have that which is pretty worldly And I am not one to Have Icons or images come to me. I'm not a person who sees entities An angelic beings and

And that may change, but That hasn't historically helped me. It's been more of a distraction. So In terms of seeing beings Yes, I haven't but I I feel I feel Held first of all held but more than hell There is something that I can feel that is gravitationally pulling me Out of my body and into Something vast

That I have there are no entities involved in that You feel and can you talk a little bit about that feeling of being held Who's holding you? What is it? What what are the qualities of being held? What is it? What is it like when I think of being is it like a physical embrace or can you describe that? I can describe it and but it's a warmth It has a lot of room to wiggle around in It has depth

It has depth Darknesses It has luminosity Um It has other colors depending on Whatever it is that I'm grappling with because also, you know in the middle of all of this Not only am I leaving my body and not not only am I being pulled toward

Some vast mystery But I'm also trying to reconcile Various facets of my life that don't feel completely reconciled And when I say held I mean that those Lacks of reconciliation Are also held. There's enough room in that holding to hold the anger and to hold the Resentment and to hold the

um Oh the regrets and the the anguish of of feeling that I never Did particularly the highest and Most heroic things that I could have done That I had the capacity to do that would perhaps reached more people It holds all of that

and It the holding is it a for does it feel as though it's Releasing you of the regret does it feel or is it just that it's allowing all of this to exist at once? It's more that it's an inclusivity it includes everything and it it explains to me That judgment is an egoic function and we have been Immersed in judgment We've been taught to judge everything

And that what I'm being taught now Is to back off From judging my anger and to back off from judging my regrets But to let them be part of the manifestation of who I am And not to give myself hell about it in some kind of moralistic fundamentalist way So it's as though as you're dying You're becoming More yourself

I'm becoming bigger I'm becoming more spread out I'm finding that Who and what I am Is vastness itself And it is also an individual And it's the coming together of those two That represents holding

It's it's where the two meet And I'm I guess I'm just trying to understand if this When you say holding what or who is doing the holding Like I said to you I don't perceive I don't make up in my Imagination entities I find entities to be distracting So I go deeper than Making up mental images of things Therefore I when I go deeper than the mental I am immediately in direct knowing

And I can directly know holding without having to have Picture in my mind of somebody holding me I I think that that would distract me from the experience of holding Which is an ultimately marvelous experience of being held And being held is inseparable from holding So there's a reciprocity of being held and holding That is a it's different from I am being held I'm a little girl. I'm being held by my mama

It's not that But there is a sense that we are all held and we don't realize it Why don't we realize it because we've done so much with our mental conceptualization That we miss what's right under our noses what we can directly know Through dropping into What our current experience is right now And if you and everybody who listens to this can do that you will what you will find Is holding you don't have to be dying to find that it's a given

And and that dropping into it means if you happen to to feel like a Like you're not a great person today if you feel selfish today it it doesn't just include all the If you drop a lot of people are going to drop into themselves right now and Who knows they just finished watching some Disgusting porn on the internet or they've just gone through a Three-day binge of playing xbox or they've they're Maybe they just finished their second pack of cigarettes for the day. They feel dizzy. They don't feel very good You know and but you're saying that

That You shouldn't judge that I'm saying that we need to understand that the human being is composed of layers and layers and layers of identities And some of the more superficial ones are ones that we use to charge and discharge We've been doing that since we were infants pooping in our pants

Yeah And so it's inherent in us and some people are still at that level. They want to charge and discharge, right? So That's okay They can charge and discharge They're just a lot of other levels and they don't even know this a lot of people don't realize there are there are many other levels I've never heard that model charging and discharging. I so so you're saying that the When people smoke or engage in whatever

Addictive behavior or letting off steam behavior. That's a form of just Discharging energy. Yes. It's a very primitive form of being human Charging and discharging you see it in jellyfish, too Yes Yeah, I guess uh and the human being Actually has the potential to be Vastly more than meets the eye

And so if we spend all of our lives charging and discharging we don't get to know that There it's okay But you're but I just I guess I want to go back to this idea of like going into your I'm just You go what you what you started off saying is that you you've you're kind of experiencing the totality of yourself You're experiencing the regrets You're experiencing this higher You're experiencing this entire spectrum And when a person drops down into their beingness

And they're honest with themselves And they see that where they're at is not Is just at a primitive jellyfish level. I've certainly been there What What should they do what what should they do in that moment to experience this Sense of being held that you're talking about well, maybe it's not realistic for them to Say, hmm. I'm charging and discharging now. I want to field health because we don't have any control over this There's that's one thing that I'm finding is that all of this is happening to me. It's not me mentally trying to

Will something to happen? But what I can do and say is say, uh, look you are doing a bit of charging and discharging right now, aren't you? And sure enough this very morning. I did some charging and discharging while you guys went to breakfast You know what I did? Oh, no. Well, this is st. Patrick's day. So I looked up duchess. Kate to see what she did on st. Patrick's day Nothing but charging discharge Total charge total discharge. She got her foot caught in a great She did she got her foot caught in a grave Was she how does that immediately make the news? They they're well, that's a different story entirely

But this is a fractal what you're talking about here is that and this is something that Is it I think when you say these are things that are outside of our control It does seem that one thing that is within our control is where you want to place your attention. Yes and so there's this Happening right now and the fractal of your life Is that on one level? You're dying

Your body's dying. You're about to Seize to exist as a human being You're about to go down that path that every single human being Since the beginning of time has gone down And there is an opportunity in in that level for the most intense and amazing Uh mellow drama is ramda says if you want to plug in to certain parts of that and a lot of people That's how they react to this extinction a lot of people they don't gracefully Pass on but also simultaneously within this fractal that's happening

You have just the absurdity of looking at dutch's cake getting your foot stuck In a grate that's still happening That's going on no matter what that level of the world is happening too And then there's this deeper level that you're talking about which is this being held Illuminosity and then what you said Earlier which is this sense of being pulled into something vast and all of these things are happening at once They are all happening at once. You're happening to everybody at once

They're everybody is this is nothing New it's just that I'm closer to I know that I'm closer to death than you think you are But you might be closer to death than death than I am they are happening in everybody The potential is there all the time to recognize all of this Yes, but when we get caught In the world in the world culture and we perceive ourselves to be that identity It is impossible that sets up a barrier

To perceiving anything deeper that is right here shining in our Hearts or in our faces What would the world look like if by some miracle everyone Simultaneously managed to get to the place that you're at right now without having to Lose their physical body. What kind of world would we be in? It would be bright And truly I think that's an excellent question because I can tell you this

And this is not going to be a popular thing to hear The vastness That I'm being pulled into More specifically Is that my individuality my sense of individual identity Is dissolving into The vastness Where there are no boundaries

The individual identity that I have therefore Wasn't all that real right and so That's the thing that we Can realize Is the vastness is all there really is with all of its mysterious Appearances and disappearances and dynamisms and

Uh effulgences effulging out of the absolute So here's a here's a really interesting thing. I had an idea this morning when I woke up early I first of all I wanted to see if my capacities to Do my early morning studying were still with me and they weren't until I put my oxygen on but when I got my oxygen on There they were and I was able to hear things come come through me, which is what I love so much And I had brought

A big thick book with me to bed Because what I wanted Before I died this is what I was saying what I wanted before I died was to experience the absolute. Yes the absolute dimension of reality Which is deeper than the non-conceptual deeper than pure presence deeper than pure awareness Deeper than the divine love Certainly deeper than the ego the depths of the depths So I said to myself I want to experience this before I die So I opened the book and I intended to follow

Guidelines one two three four five and I thought that by the time you guys woke up I would probably have gotten to the absolute wouldn't that be nice But what happened instead Was far more interesting because what happened instead was a revelation to me that i'm already there I don't need to work on this so hard. I'm already there Right Nothing to do It happened without my orchestrating one damn thing. That's gotta be

That's a that's a look for some people that's a little frustrating to hear Because it's so counter to everything in our culture, which is that Work hard work hard do the pull-ups do the sit-ups do the painful meditations Do the psychedelics do the ayahuasca all these things to do To get to this state and to hear you say that this is there's nothing to that you can do well let me quickly say That when I talk about getting up at five o'clock in the morning and doing my work from five o'clock until whatever time in the

Day that I can continue doing it depending on what's been going on in my days Maybe five to twelve I don't know generally it stops around noon But I've done this every day for years and years and years and The various things that are important you start you start where you are so I have to say I started If I started with charge and discharge, which is not where I started Let's that's just one of the most primitive is why I just pulled that one out

You start where you are, you know try to get to the absolute You don't try to even think about what the absolute means You just start charge and discharge I can feel myself Discharging right now. I can feel myself building a charge and You are kind with yourself at that point and you don't judge it And say you lazy so and so you shouldn't be charging and discharging

That will stop you called That's the that's the barrier that will first stop you and there are many many many barriers I think some people are afraid to stop judging themselves. I think some people are afraid that if they stop judging themselves that they need that constriction and they need that psychic barrier to shame themselves To keep themselves from doing whatever the charging and discharging behavior is That they were judging themselves for in the first place Well, they may but if you look at that from another angle, you will see that what they're trying to do is maintain

their being some mentalized adult They're trying to be loyal to mama They wanted to come change their diaper That's what they're looking for and if that's where they're looking for that's what they're looking for that's where they're at Yep

loyalty to mama You'd be amazed so the judgment keeps We hear you Blasted son of a bitch you stupid failure you goddamn blah blah blah That my friend is loyalty to mother It's also I there's a an excellent, uh I don't remember what university they just put out a Audio track so that you could hear what it's like to have auditory hallucinations as a schizophrenic from studying schizophrenics

they had an audio track of what that sounds like to be a schizophrenic and in the voices tend to be What's wrong with you? Look at you. You're stupid. You're dumb. You're stupid. It's like they've so That thing that is inside people is actually for them Broken away and become an externalized Form of judgment. That's a good way of putting it and also that's true for many of us

People who are not diagnosed as schizophrenic that that part of us has broken away and become an entity Inside of us and outside of us that rules our lives with A very a variety of thumbs for example I know many people who have the golden spoon

judgment Oh That was a wonderful bowel movement What is that? That's judgment. It's positive judgment. Oh, aren't you cute? I love it when you do your eyelashes like that. That's judgment. Oh, I see. So you're Lost me at bowel movement That you're saying that the mother is that they had a mother that complimented their bowel movements

As a kid it gets into their head and they actually apply some kind of and so they give themselves positive judgment all the time Now that's a very popular. Oh, I see what you're saying You people who are proud of their bowel movements And they're cute hair and they're eyelashes, right and they're precious dress, right? Everything form of who is that I have yet to I don't think I've I think we were talking about somebody earlier this morning named It has the initials k.k

Mommy can't you jet you're throwing a jab at the Kardashians on your death bed All is held I just soiled my nest Oh man, you know, you know that as a celebrity you have done Something wrong if people on their death bed are are zinging you Yeah It's pretty antithetical to what I'm trying to help people awaken to You know, so maybe she's a good example of what you can see that is the antithesis of

Of being awake and and being a complete human being She's probably not a complete human being. Well, maybe she's charging and discharging She may she may well be charging and discharging and that's a thing because you know, here you are Saying that we shouldn't apply judgment to ourselves. But now now you're in the predicament of applying judgment to kim kardashian and I'm Not judging you for that because god knows I there's a delight in judging. I mean, that's a this is a being friends with comedians Sometimes we'll get into philosophical conversations about enlightenment and

The idea of like gaining true happiness or getting to a place of non-judgment and for a lot of comics, they're like, yeah, that's That's taking away one of my primary tools of crafting jokes Is judging because it's fun. It's fun to judge. It's fun to look at It's like this is something nichi talks about which is this idea that we need something to overcome If we existed in a world where there were no kim kardashians and if we existed in the world where there were There was there were no no fools or oaths or dolt's or people engaged in really basic level activities Then there wouldn't be a pull-up bar. There'd be no way for us to

To be to differentiate. Well, that's not gonna happen because there are all these layers So you don't even need to worry about that. They're gonna exist But the there are layers and our job Our job if we want to evolve if we want to evolve And i'm not saying that anybody that we've mentioned wants to evolve Like kim kardashian, for example, I don't know kim kardashian. I avoid looking at her So I don't even know But i'm saying that I want to evolve and I want to evolve to the extent that I can before I die

So what I learned to do is to delve more deeply into My judgment And I get curious about it and I inquire into it. What's this judgment? Who am I taking myself to be and who am I taking this poor child kim kardashian to be? Yes Right talk about a lost soul. She seems like a good example of a lost soul A materialist and I can have I can have compassion for her Easily for somebody like that So I take my judgment which comes up anyway, whether I want it to or not. That's right. I am no saint

So I can take my judgment that comes up and instead of looking out there at kim kardashian I can look at my judgment the flavor of my judgment and not only can I look at it, but I can know it directly I can feel it in my throat. I can feel it In my heart. I can feel what part of me and what identity is judging. Is it a child judging this Person is it an adult judging this person? What part of me is even thinking about kim kardashian on a sunday morning? Yes, but I can be curious about that rather than judgmental about it. Right and that makes all the difference Right I see I see what you're saying. Yeah, it's a it's a it's a it's a kind of mindfulness. It's a

Not being stuck in the tar pit of the judgment, but just watching it come And then doing a kind of analysis of it It's to it's to Love truth above all things truth not meaning the usual things but to love what is Real So that if you love what is real then you will relish the investigation into How come I'm judging kim kardashian? Yes And it's not just kim kardashian. I mean, this is a very light version of of of of this

I I think you know And a lot of people the last thing that they want is the truth the Very very last thing that if there was a menu of items to pick from the truth would be Overstocked I think because the the truth is um On one level incredibly painful and and so painful that it's uh I mean the the state of watching you go through this for me person for me is is truth. I'm seeing truth But it's so Powerful and so

Painful on one level that it's It's like put I I don't know if I'm in shock or what you would call it, but I can definitely see that something else has kicked in Neurologically for me where I've I don't know I can't describe the feeling very well, but it definitely I suppose it's the thing that they call grief And the beginning of that And and I would say that that's a reaction to this truth a lot of people truth is people want to avoid truth truth is the In the same way that you don't want to go jogging you don't want to work out at the gym times a million because it hurts

You know, I find that I cry so much these days when people send me beautiful Uh love notes in truths And I've learned that is painful to cry I don't know why it's physiological paint physiologically painful to cry But it is and I also find that it doesn't last forever And that it cracks me open it cracks me open again And again and again and again and my willingness to be cracked open

is the truth And if I were to not be willing to crack open I would suffer There would be suffering So there's a distinction between pain and suffering The suffering is when we try to Not feel what we feel the pain is something entirely different There is pain, but suffering generally has to do with attachment

That we're attached to something that we don't want to let go of Well, it's that um That state that you're talking about when you're crying It this it's it's uh, it's not like Well, first of all Adult crying is not a It's not something I I do very much. It's not charge and discharge No, it's something else when that's happening when that it's some form of spiritual

seizure that that happens where There is no control You I just have to go through it and then there's definitely it's painful, but there's a sweetness Behind it that's unlike anything I've ever experienced I I can't imagine being able to live in that state If that would be possible to live in that state and I wonder is that enlightenment Is enlightenment that feeling of sobbing minus the tears is it that feeling of

I don't see that enlightenment is a word that's a useful word right I think that it's being real and I think that what happens when we Grieve in the way you're describing is that we move into a different dimension Of consciousness and it's called love Yeah, it's called divine love and divines doesn't mean woo woo god angels and all the company of heaven it means

the selfless pouring out and and receiving The the dialectic reciprocity So you take it in and give it back like an out-breath and an in-breath and There is in that

pain But the suffering comes when we are attached To an idea a mental idea that we have about what should be happening Right that's where we get caught Right when our plans get interrupted When we consider that we have plans Just stop there, you know that I have plans as I should

Rather than realizing That this is an effulgent universe that has an a thrust and a flow to it And really if we would instead of Wamping around trying to plan stuff up if we would find our way to negotiate into the flow Our worlds would transform But that transformation for a lot of people is A form of death yeah You betcha

Because what happens in this work is that that which is false dissolves That which is real begins to shine called alchemy And that that that's the suffering the suffering is the resistance to shining The suffering is holding on to the old ways When everything in the universe changes constantly You have to look you can look outside, which I'm doing right now And I can see that everything changes constantly the shifting light the wind blowing through the trees

everything And if I am attached to that leaf not blowing I'm might I'm gonna if I'm really attached to that leaf holding still Then if it moves I'm gonna suffer So letting go of attachment is one of the big things I'm doing right now And it's so hard to To Ride the edge between love and attachment Right

Right right Yes, that's the big confusion isn't it? That's such a big confusion people have confused love with attachment people think that a relationship They get into these relationships That are Solely attachment with no love at all And they think that the attachment is the is the this is that when you get you get in the predicament where you You want to get in a fight with someone so that they'll say that they need you

You know instead of just letting them be as they are That's a very common thing that happens where people Will try to like you know, this is the thing where people will Withdraw themselves from another person to manipulate the person and to saying I need you that's charge and discharge. Yes There's a lot of charge and build charge and discharge that Happens in intimate relationships and I'm putting intimate and quotation marks Why because they're nothing but melodrama And melodrama has nothing to do with the truth. It's all mental ideas

and attachment And suffering and gooey messy knots of snot Yeah Yes, that doesn't last it is fun to for a bit though, right? I mean charge and discharges we can't just Wipe charge and discharge off the sheets I mean there is that that that there is see this is the thing and this is a

This this I think is a is an idea that torments people because what what we have here is You know what what you're talking about at the state of love Nonattached love and then the what the other side that you just portrayed which is this gooey mucusy gamesmanship that is the Mating ritual and all the various games that humans play with each other that's based on power dynamics or based on um charge and discharge

And so attachment and so then you have the this sort of sense of The judge judge here the judge or who watches these things And says oh look at you now. You're just engaged in attachment or oh here. We are now. We're feeling love I've I've heard this in um In uh So I I heard this awesome analysis of you know the temptation of buddha You know about this the buddha sitting under the bodhi tree

And is there's several temptations that come to siddhartha gatamas. He's journeyed to this Out into the forest. He's sitting under a tree and he's decided that he's going to gain Enlightenment or he's just going to die. And so there's these three visions that uh he's met with is The is he is tempted by mara the force that the is a term for my illusion attachment Test him and one of these

Visions is is uh women You know the marriage or um The perfect relationship or he's met with this idea that you can here's your perfect soulmate lover Fawning over you and uh the analysis of this is that that didn't represent an actual physical These were the daughters of mara is what they're called that doesn't represent a physical form But rather that's the part of the mind That when you start getting towards what you consider spiritual realization

Earlier when I said the word enlightenment, that's the part of your mind. That's like, oh look, this is it Now you're feeling real love now. This is real real love. Oh, you've done it. You're so very spiritual right now instead of Letting yourself get into the sticky moments too Here's here's what I would have to say here. I'm just as you were speaking just now. I came up with Some very important things and what I came up with was a broad reaching sense that our culture and our world in which we live is like A snot ball. Okay, and that we

You know when it's big enough we want to discharge it Prior to that that snot ball builds up charge. Okay, and that There is a certain kind of attachment To the snot ball. Yes And that this is pretty much what describes our relationships. There's snotty relationships For the most part They're not very real. I mean mucus

Isn't what I would personally call a high form of reality. You need it You need it when you're sick Right, okay Okay I understand what you're saying and you know in a certain sense the word Pearl has been used The pearl beyond price Which is to describe christ consciousness or to describe what the complete human can be once it is developed and

um Transformed in the in the human life And the pearl if you look at it the pearl could look If you if you looked at a snot ball and you looked at the pearl you would have to look sometimes A little bit hard to see the one and distinguish the one from the other But one is totally different from the other. That's what the ego does the the ego tries in its very finest valiant way To form what is real within itself

And so the snot ball human is The ego equivalent of the pearl the christ consciousness Gotcha. I see what you're saying, but it's it's it's it's a pathetic synthetic Manifestation, but we don't know it Right, it cannot be pathetic if we don't know it exists, right And we don't And that's why we can have compassion for people like k k or ourselves or perhaps ourselves As we see that we are ignorant about

the snot ball false self That we work so hard to make look like a shining pearl Yeah, you're you're talking about trying to polish a turd I am And and we do that all the time and my whole culture is making a gazillion fortunes on polishing turds And there are a few of us that are actually

Working to become the pearl The real pearl beyond price and certainly Any time you realize within yourself the pearl beyond price it is you realize good lord This totally is beyond price. There is nothing more valuable than this and let me just say again that I didn't get to this Even to knowing it or to glimpsing it. I didn't get here casually And I got here by waking up at five o'clock every morning and studying and inquiring And being ruthlessly honest with every manifestation that came up in me So as to find what was true again and again and again

And what I'm finding now at the end of my life is that What is true as you have said to me Duncan, what is true can't be bought What is true is simple What is true is so basic And so perfectly useful for us to negotiate our ways through our lives But the the trappings the false pearl trappings Are in our way the attachments that go along with the false pearl trappings are in our way

What do we start with? We look at the last time we charged and discharged. You could just do that, you know What's wrong with that? Okay. So Duncan went to breakfast I turned on my computer and put in Duchess Kate blog spot And there she is getting caught in the grill with her high heel shoe Yes That's charging a discharge. So that's what I can look at and then I can inquire into it. How come I wanted to do that?

We tell you mom that's pretty tame compared to what a lot of people looked at in their their laptops But it's still all the same thing it's still all it's still it's still all uh You know that You know you for you Engage whatever the thing is, you know, like uh, maybe it's video games. There's an example of a A distraction where you really there's just nothing that you get out just surfing the internet Just basic internet surfing You'll get done with 30 minutes or 45 minutes or four hours or how depending on your addiction

of just boring internet surfing and at the end of it you'll feel empty and kind of groggy and tired and You'll think to yourself well that you know, I That was a waste of time mm-hmm and what you're saying is That

Though that may be a waste of time you can actually if nothing else use Look at it truthfully and in some way that will push you Out of the Addiction is that what you're saying? I am certainly not saying that Sorry I'm saying truly that everything is grist for the mill But you if you have an agenda To get yourself out or push yourself out of the addiction. Yes, you're in your ego

Oh, see now. This is what this is where you're right here mom. This thing that you're talking about This is the infuriating aspect of so many different philosophies, which is it's saying no you You're in Chinese handcuffs if you struggle to get out of them. It only makes them tighter. True So what do we do? You you see how willful you are And how the willfulness is a part of that snot ball

And willfulness is I will I need to control things I have to control things I want to control things and if I control things things will be exactly the way I want them to be And then I will live happily ever after ta-da Which is contradictory to the entire way of the universe the way the universe works is not that way at all It's the exact exact opposite the universe is a flow a mysterious flow It has a directionality to it

It arises from nothing It appears and it disappears We are a part of it everything is a part of it It has an intelligence It optimizes it has a a quality of optimization to it And when we Perceive it enough to align with it We get out of our willfulness and get into a phenomenon called surrender

And the surrender is to the surrender of into the Intelligence of the universe if you haven't noticed the intel the universe seems fairly intelligent Yes What you are doing with your willfulness and with you're saying I have an agenda to get out of my addictions ta-da You are blocking the flow of the universe Through yourself through your own consciousness Is this isn't is letting go Also based on what you're saying another form of trying to control this thing. It's like you can't

Hold on and you can't let go You can't act Any action that you do Or that you take Isn't it all willfulness all willful willfulness and if you let go And you say oh, okay. Okay. Now. I'm gonna let go of this addiction. That's what I need to do right now Here's step one two and three Nope you the only way we can let go the only way we can surrender is to say

Oh Fuck I was trying to find a better word You say Nothing to do Except see my willfulness That's it I can see it and not only can I see it, but I can go deeply deeply deeply

Into understanding how willfulness became a humongous part of my life because I can go back into my childhood And see how there was nothing solid. There was nothing to trust In my early years. I had to create some kind of internal sense of will In order to feel held right I understand where it came from, but is it in is it out of date now it is But do I know why is it out of date now because I see what happens when I let go When my consciousness chooses to let go into This optimizing thrust of reality

It's one of those things where it sounds So easy Yet simultaneously you're saying that you came to this Understanding through years Of waking up every morning and having a what a very disciplined spiritual practice A very Disciplined practice, but that sounds like something it wasn't mine was raucous My practice in the morning has been raucous

So I'll make myself a big pot of mate and I'll come get in bed with my mate and my notebooks and my books And I'll maybe find one sentence In the books that hits me and it grabs something in me And I may spend the next seven hours writing about that one thing Trying to investigate and understand and integrate it into me So that it isn't just some prattle that i'm getting from some damn book Because a belief isn't going to get me anywhere an idea is not going to get me anywhere An idealization is not going to get me anywhere

Only thing that's going to get me somewhere is knowing from inside myself and that will actually Do it because knowing from inside myself is not knowing From inside this egoic human being it is a knowing that is arising from that effulgent Intelligent flow that flows through you and through me and trees and birds Flows across the door cell and it's still an out the back door into the field This is uh, this is what is this what we really are If I understand what your question is If I understand what your question is this is what we really are, but i'm not sure what you're saying we really are

I'm saying there's this what what the The model that you have created here is one where When when I hear you say go to the truth inside of me It makes me think of a kind of Geographic location of truth that exists inside my physical body But what you're what it's the way you're saying it it seems more as though you go even deeper than your body But you start with your body you can start

With whatever you notice so for example if you notice tightness in your chest you start there Right, you don't go try to find a better place to start because that's shining at you gotcha Okay, that's great. So there's a starting point. You don't start in some kind of made up imaginary deep part of yourself You start with the anxiety bubble in your chest that you felt forever exactly That's where it is. That's where it is and you don't want to go there because that place sucks Because it's painful you because you're suffering because you're attached to You Right

You're attached to the way you think things should be you So that's great. So there it is. So suddenly what you're saying is that The x on the treasure map It it it it actually is the The physical manifestation of pain in your body is a place to start Yes, if that's what's up if that's what's shining at you To get your attention something well and I say shine. I don't really mean shine. I'm It may be bleeding all over the rug

Say but it is what gets your attention course It's where you are suffering. No, it's so simple. It's great It's like if you've been shot You're not going to come inside and start putting band-aids Where the bullet wound isn't if you've been shot you're not going to Put a cast on your leg as though your leg's been broken you deal with a bullet wound. Yes, exactly And you're talking about that's so we have these sort of Wonderful

Indications of where the work needs to start and they are wonderful But well they are when you When you create this kind of dynamic they are For a lot of people, they're the worst thing ever Nobody want this is the place like you know in the in the extreme sometimes you run into people and you just start talking about death Around certain people and they'll they'll change the subject as quickly as they can. They're absolutely terrified of it I know a few of those I'm sure

I'm sure it's something you've had to deal with over this these many many many many years of struggling with this cancer But it's so so so you go to this place you The tightness in the chest and then what now now I've now i'm sitting here with the tightness in my chest. I'm looking at it feeling it What do I do now What is my experience in this moment?

Well my mom's dying So drop beneath those words that's mental and what is your experience As a result of those words informing you What do I do Well on one level it's a kind of like tired Anxiety a kind of like Headachey Sick

Dreadful feeling of Thickness It's like it's horrible Now what could you call it grief? Yeah for sure it's it it seems to be a uh So there's a tightness in your chest that you can now associate with the word grief, okay Is that what you're saying? So Can you let yourself just not try to change that but be with it be with this profound phenomenon called grief

Yes, the chest wall opens up it's so Forceful Yeah already when I do that it makes it's making me cry it feels like already that's changing it You're right, you know, you're right. It's the resistance to what that hurts. Yes So as you let yourself feel the depth of the sorrow The objective sorrow of

Of The physical disappearance of a person you love Your mother I get but I cannot stay in that place I come out of it. It's like I can get I can get in there For a second. What's the belief? I can't stay in there. My belief is that if I State another second Right

Well, yeah, because then you go into that place of like losing control for sure Yeah, so my fear is I'm gonna lose control And I want control I want to feel this grief a little bit. Yes, I want to have a little valve on it so I can turn it off and on Yes That's exactly right And you can do that It just makes it just hurts a hell of a lot more

Yeah, the pressure pressure hurts It seems like it could even be physically debilitating To keep the pressure. Yeah, yeah, probably would be It's a great meditation I've never done it before so is there any what's is it slight is exactly the same What is your direct experience? now in your chest

Well, the moment that I really like let myself go into it. It's it stops hurting right away And it feels there's something very tranquil and soft So what's this tranquility and softness? Well It's that perplexing Sense that everything's going to be okay Did you call it holding?

Yes But it seems to exist simultaneously with this other like Freakish Constriction it does There every it is all inclusive Reality is all inclusive And we don't want to judge Reality when it's all inclusive includes everything. So why would you judge one part of it and not another?

Well, one part is certainly preferable to the other. Why? That's a judgment No, it's why would I the difference between Sitting in a an ice cold Pool of water sitting in a really nice hot tub Well, here's one of the things you got to work with The desire for pleasure and to avoid pain. Yes I think that's a fairly healthy

Uh, that's a pretty healthy Desire it's an egoic desire. Well, it's also what keeps you from putting your hand in fireplaces. Is it really? At this point in your life I know you're a little better than that It's good I like it. It's really good So you find and this is an amazing thing to find That in the midst of sorrow In the midst of feeling your chest rip apart

If you can stay with it a little bit with compassion Without trying to fix it and change it and well in a way You begin to glimpse the holding right it's there all the time With such benevolence Such capacity to hold And it's in you It's not out there in the sky. It's in you right Right. Yeah

It's in the sky too, but let's make it personal You Thank you You're very welcome for everything It's mutual I thank you I'm honored You And I didn't will you into the world I didn't organize you into the person you are came from me

What you are is a unique manifestation of being And I am honored to be in your presence Likewise So where we be performing next well, I don't know where we're gonna be performing That's a good question That's a good question. I don't want to know that too I love you All right

Anything you want to say to everybody out there? I want to say That I will be with you In ways that neither you nor I can comprehend But I know just from doing a podcast with Duncan before that I'm spread out throughout the world Not by anything I'm doing But I'm with you Just pay attention listen for me

I'm here I'm there Howdy Krishna, thanks mom Thanks for listening everybody if you like this podcast you can find more episodes at dunkintrussell.com Now, please enjoy a wonderful song by the great Jackson brown It's called for a dancer and it's from his album late for the sky. You can buy that on ito Keep a fire burning in your eye

Pay attention to the open sky You never know what will be coming down I Don't remember losing track of you You were always dancing in and out of you. I must have thought you'd always be around Always keeping things real by playing the clown Now you're nowhere to be found I don't know what happened when people died

I can't seem to grasp it as hard as I try It's like a song I can hear playing right in my ear that I can't say I can't help listening And I can't help feeling stupid standing around Crying is the easier down Because I know that you'd rather we were dancing Dancing our sorrow away Right on dancing no matter what

Just do the steps that you've been shown By everyone you've ever known Until the dance becomes your merry own No matter how close we are Another steps have grown In the end there is one dance you'll be alone You Keep a fire for the human race

And let your prayers go drifting into space You never know what will be coming down Perhaps a better world is drawing near And just as easy it could all disappear Along with whatever meaning you might have found Don't let the uncertainty turn you around The world keeps turning around and making joy from the sound Into a dancer you have grown

From a seat somebody else has thrown Go on ahead and throw some seeds of your own And somewhere between the time you arrive and the time you go May lie a reason you were alive that you'll never know