Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Pendleton Ward

Episode Date: November 4, 2016

The magical creator of Adventure Time joins the DTFH! Plus a big announcement about an upcoming move to a very special city......

Wendy's $3 breakfast deal is a bacon or sausage egg croissant plus small seasoned potatoes for three bucks It's the breakfast that don't miss so if you did miss Wendy's breakfast Don't imagine fresh cracked eggs sizzling sausage crispy bacon and block out those hot buttery flaky croissants Croissants don't really make a sound but if they did for breakfast that don't miss Wendy's is that breakfast? Choose wisely choose Wendy's $3 breakfast deal limited time only a participating US Wendy's I'd like to request $3 breakfast deal to obtain discount not valid for all the card of combo orders This episode of the DTFH is brought to you by the gentlemen over at Fulton and Rourke comm over the last few weeks I have been perfuming myself and conditioning my skin with products that are so fine

They make me feel as though I were a character in Westworld Preparing myself for some kind of robotic Dual the stuff is amazing and you can get it for 15% off by going to Fulton and Rourke comm That's Fulton and RO ARK comm and using offer code family hour more about Fulton and Rourke after this Hello pals boy Do I have a gigantic announcement before we dive into this podcast with Pendleton Ward and I would just say it But this is the kind of announcement that can only be spoken

in a song It's a big deal friends I've got my wandering shoes on and I feel that I'm getting called to a very special city Start spreading the news I'm leaving today I Want to be a part of it New York New York

These vagabond shoes They're longing to stray Right through the very heart of it New York New York To quote Albert Camus. What gives value to travel is fear It's the fact that at a certain moment when we are so far from our own home We're seized by vague fear and an instinctive desire to go back to the protection of old habits

This is why we should not say that we travel for pleasure There is no pleasure in traveling And I look upon it as more an occasion for spiritual testing Or to quote Seneca Travel and change of place and fart new vigor to the mind Or to quote Andre guide Man cannot discover new oceans unless he has the courage to lose sight of the shore

Or to quote Ray Bradbury Stuff your eyes with wonder Liz is live as if you drop dead in 10 seconds. See the world It's more fantastic than any dream made or paid for in factories Or to quote out as Huxley to travel is to discover that everyone is wrong about other countries Or to quote John Steinbeck people don't take trips Trips take people

Or to quote Helen Keller Life is either a daring adventure or nothing Or to quote bad Hoffman Stop worrying about the potholes in the road and enjoy the journey or to quote Irving Wallace every man can transform the world from one of monotony and drabness to one of excitement and adventure Or to quote all of her window homes a mind that is stretched by a new experience Can never go back to its old dimensions or to quote Henry Miller One's destination is never a place but a new way of seeing things or to quote dr. Seuss

Oh the places you'll go or to quote Adolf Hitler It's beautiful in new york even in the winter I I'm moving to new york You any kind of honest anybody know who you are maybe anybody else wants to enjoy the peace and quiet This is one of the most important places in all of north america. Who are you? Who are you? So there it is folks. That's the big announcement a great adventure has started beginning in january

I will venture into what is considered to be one of the most Precarious and deadly endeavors far more dangerous than scaling mount everus far more dangerous than gazing into the necronomicon I'm going to try to find an apartment in brooklyn in the dead of winter And if anyone out there can help your help will be much appreciated I'm very excited about this guys any new york tips that you have for me. Please send them my way All right, that's it moving to new york. We're going to jump right into this podcast with pendleton ward but first Some very quick business

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Of our website and if you want some distraction for thanksgiving I have two things I could recommend that they sell on amazon if you're Wanting to get paranoid weirded out freaked out or if you just want some inappropriate table Conversation fodder then I would recommend the book the rise of the fourth rike which is a Wonderful conspiracy that I just discovered thanks to some of my friends from the enchanted booty forest The essence being that the nazis didn't go anywhere They just went into hiding and they are the ones behind the terrible collusion that we see happening between massive corporations And the government it's a beautifully spooky rabbit hole

And I'm really enjoying reading it if you want to go even deeper down a rabbit hole and you've got some extra dough Why not buy an htc vibe from our amazon link? This is a thing that you could bring home for the holidays and Blow your parents and grandparents minds Prove to them that we are actually being drawn into the singularity Oh, if only I had a grandfather to show an htc vibe to I would love to see their reactions And you can get one on amazon, but just go through our link, won't you? We also have a shop with some t-shirts

pins posters and we're gonna have some Really interesting stuff coming in soon. I can't talk about it right now because it's still in production But it involves led lights and the powers of the occult All right, that's it for me friends. We are going to jump right into this episode today's guest has been on the podcast once before You probably know him because he is the creator of the greatest cartoon of all time Adventure time and here he is with us today Everybody, please spread as much love energy as you can out into the aether sphere

Through the invisible hummingbirds of the astral plane and down into the sweet glorious genius heart of today's guest Pendleton ward You Pendleton hold on let me change headphones. He's Suck man. They're so tight on my ears. Hold on a second The buzz man, I like the buzz now. I'm sorry about the buzz. I but no the buzz is uh relevant You know, how is it relevant? Uh, because we were talking about

um Existence preceding essence right and the essence is the buzz Okay, if we could just uh If we could just get rid of the buzz Right, we'd be in a bliss blissful state is um this buzz in buddhism

The term I've heard for it is fundamental dissatisfaction that at the base of most human activity You will find yourself inevitably thwarted with a kind of

Depending on what's going down Uh a sense of dismay That no matter how good the thing is this is when you're like your friends throw like the really nice party And the great food is there And the whatever the thing that it's supposed to be amazing is happening is happening or or maybe you go on the perfect vacation The whatever it is whatever you are you're conditioned to think okay, this is it we are in Tahiti or wherever sitting on a

Beautiful beach the the water is the same temperature as a hot tub man Fruity drinks coming in Some beautiful Romance happening maybe and yet if you do a scan of yourself You will still find the buzz the buzz No way to get rid of the buzz is there Well, you tell me right? I mean I don't I'm so like I I kind of look to you for answers like that

Like how do you how do you stop? um How do you stop you feeling your sense of self like you're How do you how do you how do you become like nothingness? Is that is that even the Is that even a goal to people have that goal? Well to be nothing. Yeah Well, you can't be nothing because you're something you're something. Yeah So that's the problem like you're you're if we can be nothing

Or set I guess uh, yeah, I guess we're gonna I mean everyone's gonna be nothing. It's um, sorry everybody Everyone's gonna be nothing sooner or later. That's the dream That's the great dream being nothing is better than having everything in the world because you're you're To become a nothing what you're completely freed From all responsibility All karmic debt all guilt all memory no matter what you've done if this is true Then executing a mass murderer is actually the very worst thing you could do Because you have redeemed them are the best thing you could do

Well, the problem is if you if the your the point of the execution is the ultimate punishment, right? I mean in a nice way like there's a best thing. Well, it would be it would be an act of true love Which would be like let me free you. Yeah from there from the awful Prison of ego that you're in that's gotten you to the point where you have to kill people Wow, can you imagine like if people said those kinds of words before executions? They would be a lot different And they'd be a lot they would probably be a little more sad And the person being executed would probably feel a little more terrible

Because they're in such a compassionate universe that people are like look this burden that you've accrued We can think of no other way to free you from it Then then by stopping your biological processes So it went that it went that wrong and we're freeing you but it's usually like kill that mother fucker He shot my sister in the face. Yeah, you know, but I think that uh one of the things the um the Hare Krishna is the founder of the Hare Krishna's Prabhupāda said Is that

Death Is god for the atheist so for an atheist the annihilation of the self is your contact with the transcendent and um the illusion or the the dream of The atheist or the I guess the the Nihilist

Is that upon expiration? There is a nothingness Which in nothingness is a Dream because we've only experienced something this You can't measure nothingness The measuring of nothingness turns it into a somethingness So to fantasize about there being a nothingness after death Is the is a very sophisticated version of heaven if you ask me

Hmm um You're talking about atheists believing in Or that was it's their first would uh, how'd you put it? It was their first it's their first contact with the divine the divine. Um the transcendent made me think about uh, Neil deGrasse Tyson because on his

His showed on star talk the one where he filmed it live Not the radio one. He talked to uh Priest And Priest was a really cool guy. He was talking he you know at some point. He made a lot of sense because neil um Neil was kind of laughing a little bit and skeptical of right

Rules like rules that's that keep people from Because he keeps talking about how science is this thing that that's always expanding and rewriting itself It's all theory That hardens into fact, which is facts are these amorphous things right and that's and that's why he felt so confident about science Um as a philosophy. I don't those aren't his words. I don't think he would call it that but anyway, uh, so at some point Neil deGrasse Tyson was talking about his love of the cosmos

and He talks about it with such passion and It like fills fills him up and it like makes his heart swell um And he was describing that to the priest and the priest said that's that's just how I feel about God and that in God is this thing that we don't entirely understand and uh

I don't know how to explain it. That's beautiful. That's it. I think it and I understood it in that moment like It's something I hadn't understood. I don't think Yeah, well, this is the uh, the the problem is you you end up with a one camp Demanding the other camp Use the same symbol system that is inducing awe in your life To induce awe in their life. That's where the problems happen A theist might say listen. Yeah, this mathematical Equation that is producing this never-ending fountain of non-repeating numbers

is coming from the mind of the creative Force in the universe the god at that is instantly negating itself annihilating itself and renewing itself In nanoseconds again and again and again dying and being reborn as a completely new And more incredible thing in every second just as a product of what it is

That's pi for the theist But for the atheist pi is like this is an incredible thing Do you not see this infinite string of non-repeating numbers? How beautiful that is that we have that in this universe two different ways of talking about Different ways may be talking about sorry to interrupt the finding solace in like mystery or finding solace in like The question of of purpose or something. That's that's how I usually chill out is when I think about how I don't know we don't know

And that's as good as we know And then I'm like, oh, I've reached the the pinnacle of what we know, which is that we don't know And now I'm safe. I feel safe because I can live in this area where I'm at the edge of My I lost my train of thought Well, you're you're I don't even know if edge is the right word I mean it's the edge is great But it's when you sort of go through the edge and end up in this completely other zone of

Of novelty that's where the magic happens, you know for whatever way you get there It's all forgivable. I mean if you think that Your way of science or your way of religion or there's some superior way then I don't know that seems That seems like you're missing the point which is when when we we gather together In this very specific place That is mysterious and most importantly new Right. This is the quality

Like, you know The morning Depending on where you live smells a certain way when you go outside and you breathe in morning air It's somehow to me. It's different than the nighttime air somehow. It's a it's a different thing A baby when you're checking out a baby It's glowing in a way that things that aren't a baby don't necessarily glow And uh, that's novelty brand new newness newness new. This is a new thing that moment You meet somebody

And you realize oh shit. We're gonna be more than friends Uh that first moment that the moment it kind of comes into your mind. You're like, whoa, wait, wait You're the next Lover I'm gonna have in my life Maybe the last It's matt. It's the most incredible moment. That's that is the fragrance of god I think that's what I uh That's what I I feel like i'm living for right now is whenever I make a connection with someone

Whenever I can like look into someone's eyes. I kind of I understand them and they understand me and there's a connection that's made um, feel it fills me up makes me feel like um Uh This just sounds cheesy, but life is worth living. I feel like that connection is what hope Hope is hope the right word. Maybe not. I don't know if that's hope. That's what I get. I get hope when I well coming from the perspective of if

You have been away from that experience Looking in another person's eyes making the connection Okay, like china have you seen that new amazing radio satellite that they have not Radio telescope that they've built it's the most it's the largest uh God, you know, I should read deeper into these web articles so I could explain them without sounding like a total dumb ass

But it's the biggest scanning mechanism to look for extraterrestrial life on the planet right now. Wow and um um You know for for a planet That's tender. I guess right like that's us swiping Through a never in an unintelligible That's you're talking about a like a fireplace. I'm so out of the loop. I guess We're swiping we're swiping through unintelligible blasts of uh of radio frequencies that

Don't seem to come from any intelligent life because on a planetary level if we can contact anything that is Equally more or even less intelligent than us Then it transforms history forever on the geologic scale on the Special scale everything changes the moment we get a hey, what's up wait fuck wait what? You do we did it too wait what what that changes everything Everything so on an interpersonal level

We end up around a bunch of people But we when you're scanning them sometimes you're like, I don't know if you're the We're not this thing that you're doing is way different than the thing i'm doing So when you do make contact like what you're saying It's one of the most glorious sacred holy moments that can happen in a person's life Right because where I mean this is something I think about and maybe I tried to express it the last time I was I was talking on your podcast, but and I still don't really know how to say it, but the We're in I keep thinking that we're insular

beings by nature like we don't know We only know as far as I said these exact same words last time when I stumbled Yeah Really know as far as the boundaries of our mind and body like we're We're not the Borg we don't have this like well, maybe some people it's like a connection, but I don't and so I feel like I'm I can only Perceive what other people are thinking based on what I've thought in my life like I've stacked up my identity

From my experiences in life and I can only relate to people through those experiences Um, and that's like the root of like why no one can uh why people don't Understand each other or agree with each other because we're all Stuck in our own bodies. I can't remember why I brought this up. You said talking something about oh the connection Which is this beautiful thing that happens when you look in someone else's eyes and you know That they're listening to you and you're listening to them and you and uh, I mean some of my favorite talks are with people Who and you can relate to this lack that don't have judgment? Like they're listening to you and they're speaking with you and they're not

Judging you which is totally bizarre. Yeah, you know, it's not normal. What what? So it's not normal. So what would you compare it to? Uh, I can't I don't know. What do you uh, um I don't know. I don't know what you mean. I don't know how to compare it to anything because there's nothing to compare it to It's incomparable This trick trick question It's like a one of the coolest things

That ragu marcus who runs the rom dasis foundation told me is He was in india and he met I can't remember her name the saint and uh he said like they were walking across a courtyard or something and she uh walked up to him and looked at him

and smiled And then walked away and he said it's not like a human Came up to me. It's more like you're in the forest and a deer Comes up to you. Yeah, like this isn't a person It's in a person's body But it's not a person anymore. Whatever it is is just loving everything it's seeing and I think what you're

talking about Is uh to me if a person is looking upon me And not judging me Usually what they're doing is loving me Is it loving or like is it when a deer's looking at you? Is it just sort of accepting that you're there? It's just sort of like knowing that you are in front of it and that's and that's maybe less Judgment even than loving you. Is that crazy to say? I think it's deer plus. Okay

It's like So it's like I mean, we know From the materialistic standpoint that what when we look at a human being You're looking at just a swirl of matter like this matter is very temporarily Coalescing in this very complex harmonized thing called a human being We know that how can that be wrong like when I look at a And maybe we've talked about it in the podcast before but like when a tornado hits

and kills A lot of people you never hear on the news evil tornado That tornado was a real bad thing. It should be ashamed of itself that it would destroy a community It's just a tornado heads It's just a a a natural phenomena yet a human A human is a thing that feels shame even though It's mostly

Just a swirl of phenomena that's come together and that has an identity. So maybe the deer part Is a surrender or recognition of the fact that well, I'm surrounded by these little meat cyclones That are temporarily calling themselves a name and seem to be intent on some Goal that there is their life dream or whatever. It's okay. That's the sort of nullification of Any real importance to whatever that may be in other words, it's no more important than watching the way of fire flickers And on top of that You're like and I'm going to love it. Yeah

I'm going to fall in love with every single flicker of fire Every sunset sunrise every moon Full moon half moon Every gust of wind that blows I'm going to love it Like it's my child I don't know theory. That's theory. Um, deer plus and that's a choice. I think um, well, I don't what do you think about this like

the the the love part of that equation is is a choice that we make to To love something because we are capable of that potent level of loving Everything, I don't know. Um, um, I think about that a lot like I can choose who I want to be And I've chosen who I've wanted to be my entire life. Like I've stacked up my identity To become the me that I am right now and

It was I feel like it was more conscious than I know or more conscious than most people know about Um people, uh, I'm losing my train of thought again. Um, does that make any sense? Yeah, well, I mean, I think that like you're sort of uh Maybe what you're saying is like you're kind of like the the the aware part of yourself is maybe the tip of an iceberg on a more Maybe there's some other like right right now I'm choosing to sort of speak quietly And maybe it's because there's a microphone right in front of my lips But it's also because it's how I want to present myself right and that's something that I've

Come to understand about myself over time Um, they're you know, uh, I've I've spoken loudly before And I didn't like that me when I was speaking really loudly and I like And that's because I I equate that with being obnoxious And I don't want to be obnoxious So I've made some sort of conscious choice to turn the new to turn me into this person that's going to Speak at this like volume level And that's just one part of who I've chosen to be and your your physical body

Is speaking at a low volume level and yet and yet The impact that you've had On a great many lives Exceeds The loudest of people So the maybe your physical self is like quiet yet you you

Pendleton have produced a thing That is called adventure time right that for a lot of kids and adults is Going to be one of the one one one of the defining Elements of their life like it like for me, you know what it was? Peanuts George Schultz You know what I mean? Like we we've we've Schultz not the not the legume when I was a kid We'd gather around a bowl of peanuts

I was waiting for that that was god For me it was peanuts I was like awesome. Tell me tell me more It's just the way they look the shell Dimpled yeah, you break it open. You know, man. It's like yeah, yeah, Charles Schultz You can't I mean you I think of anyone. Maybe you do understand, but like I can remember You know how I figured out what year my parents got divorced

I thought about the movies that we watched during that year And how much those movies meant to me in the midst of this terrible turbulent time How it was Annie And poltergeist those came out and man that was like to have that Port and a storm of insanity to connect to

Was so important So this thing that you brought into the world Inadvertently or intentionally or whatever Regardless how quiet your physical form is It's for so many it was yeah, it was loud It's loud. Yeah, I was I was trying to be loud. I wanted to pitch a tv show. I wanted to broadcast my ideas to A nation of people I wanted an audience

I don't think I knew exactly why I don't think most people know why they want they like Crave more twitter followers. So they crave more Facebook friends, right people like those those tweets that are just like follow me They're just like yeah tacking on to other people and saying like follow me. Yeah on vine and everything. Yeah Yeah, what uh, you think that's what it was you really think it was The the the the the the the Butterfly, you know, they say a hurricane starts with a butterfly wing

A butterfly flaps in some place it off the hurricane. So the thing behind adventure time was a kind of Un ego something. Yeah, right my cat. How could it be anything else? Well, this is one of my favorite verses in the Bhagavad Gita is when Krishna is talking about the People who come to him It isn't very romantic. It's not like those who come to me are the wise the loving the open it's uh One of them is like people seeking fame people seeking glory people seeking this or that but the

movement in the direction of Krishna, which is a word that represents the ultimate of ultimates the the the The thing that sophistication originates from

Or that when they say high tech The thing that high tech Is birthed from that that place the movement in the direction of that thing Causes a disintegration of the initial motivation to get to that thing So as you get closer to the thing itself, whatever reason you had for Venturing towards it begins to be eroded or melted away because you realize that whatever you thought you wanted Pails in comparison to this beautiful thing that you're in the direct that you're

Getting close to yeah, reaching is the wrong approach that's uh Yeah, yeah, there's no the destination itself begins to transform the pilgrim So as the pilgrim moves towards the thing Whatever the pilgrims every think of a pilgrim You know the i'm going to go to the stones of zafgar to free myself of the guilt of what i did to my mother Well, if the stones of zafgar are truly powerful and have some Magnificent force around them zafgar. Yeah, you know those stones. Yeah as you get closer to them then

Your original reason for wanting to get there will begin to transform Maybe not even by the power of the stones themselves But by the company of the pilgrims that you begin to meet as you get closer and closer to the thing So then the initial greedy motivation becomes transformed in the process You know and wouldn't you say that like In the process of creating adventure time you you must have experienced some form of transformation Sure. Well, I mean it's been a long time. It's been uh like seven years or longer eight years or something so

Yeah, um Oh shoot. I lost my train of thought. Well the question is The i'm saying regardless of your intention for creating this epic thing Yeah, wouldn't you say that once you began to create the thing itself you must have I'm guessing there must have been a lot of like Life changes that uh Yeah

um Now i'm like Think over thinking like what i'm trying to say. Um Shoot uh I'm like self editing like while i'm thinking what two years three years in You look at the thing that you're making Even with this this podcast And i'm not in any way trying to compare it to this thing that you create which is insanely beautiful

But even with this thing I think What the fuck is this? What am I doing? What am I saying? Why what's it coming from and what is my motivation behind it? Yeah, I can speak to that because I mean so, yeah television at least right now we have about a week to come up with a story and Really, it's more like maybe three days on top of all the other things that we're doing at the same time so Yeah, you really

It's pretty tricky to like mine your soul and you know, I've I've borrowed those words from jesse moinehan who talks about and and Mining his soul to Find something worth saying Right, you know once a week right which is you know, that's you can't do it every week. That's huge especially Not stopping for Eight years seven years however long we've been doing this

It's hard. That's uh, it's hard to do it. And I think we fail sometimes of course you have to But sometimes we don't and that stuff gets on tv, which is really cool. And that's the That's that's what makes me excited about adventure time as a project that we get to Find something really personal and put it on television, which is a place that's like full of trash like television is is a Uh

It sounds snobby to call it a wasteland like television. You know, I mean who I think most people agree That's uh, there's a bunch of garbage on tv Man when I that's one of my favorite things about going to hotels because I don't have cable So when I go to hotels, that's usually like at least a month between hotel visits and every time I turn on the tv and every time I'm astounded by how wretched It is I not not, you know, not the great shows. There are some great shows, but the stuff in between it's it's

Appalling but not not a not even appalling at the level that it would make an appalling thing good It's like this. It's like someone if you could push a stethoscope Into some hell realm And convert like the random fluttering Of the wings of some lower demon Into a visual field That's what tv is like the rustling of demon wings turned into some kind of like Thing it's that bad or the the sting of a hornet turned into like something that's supposed to be entertaining

So yes, I think called tv a wasteland and that's not even a stretch like I've went home for thanksgiving and watched tv and it was like These dudes like shooting pigs with automatic machine guns from a helicopter and just being like fuck. Yeah And then the pigs would like die and fall on their face and then like flop forward and do a bunch of flips and they be like Oh, yeah Yeah Yeah, man. This is the I I've got a bow right back there. You can look at it right there hoit. Yep, and uh hoit Uh, I used to like them. I followed them on twitter. I like to shoot a bow. I like my bow. It's a hoit bow But they've got the most

noxious Fucking youtube channel you've ever seen Which is like this is what we call a slip and get where like they Shoot something with a With an arrow The arrow hits it causing it to slide in the mud as it dies And then some red net gallops up and like picks it up by the neck. We got a slip and get or like look at it

Here comes a double tumble blood tumble You know where it's like they're reducing the murder of these creatures to a kind of like uh like comedic Uh A comedic like what was the name of that terrible show not it wasn't always bad But the one where they people would send in videos of like Dads getting kicked in the nuts by goats America's funniest home videos. It's like that but with death. Yeah Yeah, so yes, I think it's safe to call TV a wasteland

I feel I feel uh, it's such a dumb Thing that I feel bad about expressing uh opinions like that like even a broad opinion like calling tv a wasteland I'm like, oh, some people like tv and they're not gonna like they're gonna be mad mad at me No, it's gonna get mad. I think anyone will hear them. Like yeah, mostly it's a wasteland outside of like a few shows That transcend the medium just like any other great art form where suddenly it's like, oh, yeah tv isn't a wasteland like when I watch Look, I love game of thrones when I watch game of thrones. It's a great show I look forward to it gives me something to be excited about on sundays Also, the night of was a really good show. I don't know if you saw that

It's really good, but there are some good great shows that emerge That transcend the medium. So yeah, it's a wasteland. You don't have to feel snobby or weird about that at all. That's an accurate if well, I want to stop being I want to stop feeling bad about saying like opinions especially brought up like vague opinions like that that aren't even that offensive like I wish I could sort of say them openly like and that's I mean, I told you earlier. That's one reason why I wanted to come but like podcast again and like as a

as a exercise of Like saying things to an audience and not feeling crummy about it the next day Right. Well, I think it's it can be cathartic I think to realize that I on one of these podcasts I admitted to getting a hand job

from a masseuse and uh I felt really like gross about it guilty and uh And like worried about talking about it because it really is like uh and now I I know even more about like How fucked up the sex Businesses and how like shit man like people get sucked into that business that Don't want to be there at all. So so I do feel like even more

Weirded out by the fact that I did it, but I did do it like I paid a masseuse to jerk me off in a room With a with a Like I'll never I actually took a picture with my phone, but I don't have that phone anymore But there's a picture of a dog. Yeah, kind of watching you judgmentally As this is happening like it's it's it's a we it's like really dark, but uh I remember like being very nervous about talking about it on the podcast because it's so depraved

And then saying it and then getting all these tweets from people saying you really feel Yeah Guilty I love it. It's one of the great things about america right you could did with it Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No, please. Well, and you know, I listen to that and whenever I'm listening to you admit something Like I feel great inside like I feel sort of the same probably relief that maybe your experience. I feel like Um, I don't know I empathize with it and it just feels awesome When I'm listening to you talk and especially when you're like getting something off your chest

Like I just feel great inside and then also it must feel wonderful to hear people Just like be like that's what whatever, you know, whatever you feel bad about that's bullshit bullshit. Don't even Like like you were just saying like This is this is This is why We need a community. Yeah, and this is why We're as a planet. We're building these massive pie dishes in the middle of mountains to try to find aliens

So maybe we can say to them or you guys this fucked up And if you're not can you help us be less fucked up? But in the same way, it's I think I think there is a A a really if you want to talk about true blasphemy, it's giving the impression that a human life is not Something that is constantly riddled with failure and embarrassment secrets False starts and mostly confusion It's giving the impression that a human being is this kind of Laser focused animal

Filled with some singular intention completely moving in the direction of some Invented goal that is an imaginary but makes sense and will have some impact On the world to put forth that concept of a human life is to torment All of us who are mostly hobbling through the world going through varying states of confusion

And uh disequilibrium with maybe a few spectacular moments of clarity That can be measured in milliseconds You know a couple of moments are like, oh wait Yeah, those moments are just This is so proud. I recognize them when they happen those moments of clarity And I'd revel in them like I'm like I'm happy. Yeah, I'm happy right now. I'm just like Oh, it's like when you're flying in a dream. You're like, I'm flying a dream. Oh And uh, I'll just revel in it for as long as it as it lasts as like this really pure

feeling of Just Uh, I don't know. Maybe happy is the right word. That's the best word. Happy is the right word I mean, that's the word we have for it right now And it's you know, it's an adequate word though I don't think it like Encaps like there's certain words that like really encapsulate what they're pointing in the direction of like take the word noxious this word

It sounds noxious like the word itself. It's got an x in it When I talk about a noxious fume I'm talking about a fume that like It's not just a stink You know what I mean? It's like when there's a fart There's like a yeah, that stinks. It goes away. You're fine noxious This will make you keel over like this is like you open up a dumpster filled with like Rotting chicken or something and the word itself

Noxious It sounds like the thing it's pointing to happy No way man In no way does that word encapsulate the experience Of that of what it points in the direction of yeah, it should be like a musical note or like a song or something like Right that should be the word for uh that great little that great little time That is it That really is it like that note

That is it because what what's inside that note is not just relief But satisfaction like when you hit that level of happiness, there's like this sense of like I did it There's a feeling of satisfaction behind it um music can really I look uh just thinking about music. I love how it can really take you out of Wherever your mind's that I've been around people when they're really troubled and one time it occurred to me to like sing Sing a song, you know, it just breaks everything breaks it down and then you're just wrapped up in This rhythm that we're like innately drawn to

You cannot underestimate the power if you're in a this is actually something I learned from Terrence McKenna He was he says when you're having a really bad mushroom trip Sing just start singing and From that I'm like wait if that works for a mushroom trip Can it just work for a bad day right? Yeah, and it does yeah If you're having a shitty day and you just start singing to yourself. Yeah Oh, sorry, I'm gonna take I was I was gonna take it to like a sadder idea Uh because lately I've been just smiling um

In an effort to like Cheer cheer my day up if I'm feeling real low I'll just like smile and I've because I feel like I heard that somewhere where you just smile and then you'll feel And it works sometimes, but I've also noticed that smiling going straight from frown to smiling is something that Uh trump does all the time. Oh no Have you seen him because when he's talking he'll go I just like lift his lift his lips up, you know Um, so that's also something I think about well, I mean we're gonna like, you know

I think that the the sun shines on the good and the bad alike and the good and the bad alike and smile Uh and and try to like cause the dopamine uh the rush of serotonin or dopamine or whatever it may be And there have been times when I do that smile In the midst of like an absolute like I'll be really fucking pissed and like I'll try to do a fake smile It just doesn't work like it's like a the intention behind it is really important It's like when trump is smiling it appears it it's like Not all the time I've seen him smile I feel like in a genuine way sometimes I'm I always catch it. I'm like, oh that looks like a genuine one

But a lot of the time it's this like thing that goes from zero to a hundred and this weird this weird way Or he's like just like rips it up Yeah, you the difference between a real smile and a fake smile is the difference between Someone picking up a feather and someone picking up a Barbell that weighs 80 pounds It's like one of them just is a natural sort of like oh look it's simple The other one like when trump is shit smiling It looks like somebody like binge pressing 300 pounds like his cheeks are attached to a barbell and each cheek weighs

Thousands of pounds and he's exerting all of his soul's energy to push those things up from the Frigid dark stasis of whatever Greedy hell is swirling and it's fucking maniacal skull So it's a different thing But sometimes when I'm like lifting those weights it does feel really heavy, which is why I think Singing's more effective. Yeah, singing Just making up a song about your day

And even if the song itself Is a song of sadness About your day it can still turn it into an ecstatic sadness, which is something I learned from Terrence McKenna as well, which is he says the Ecstasy is not limited to joy They're ecstatic states of sadness ecstatic states of guilt ecstatic states of horror ecstatic states of fear It it it runs the gamut of all potential Cognitive experiences

But the difference between an ecstatic state of joy or horror An ecstatic state of bliss or disequilibrium is that it's so incredible That the thing is pointing you in the direction of the transcendent whereas rudimentary day-to-day depressive boredom or sadness or hopelessness despair or even fake happiness biting into some kind of like I don't know thing that's supposed to taste good. Yeah

These things are pointing in the direction of matter Oh matter will make you happy or wool is making you sad, you know two very very different states. I think yeah, yeah Penn, but here's the um Here we bet we haven't even gotten into what we were going to talk about right which is uh speaking of ecstatic states Um, and it's something actually I know you're working on this Yeah, but I never know what you're what the specifics are that you're working on

Can you talk about what you're working on in the world of virtual reality right now? Yeah, I can try um, I keep well I keep I mean, I don't I don't even know what I'm working on a lot of time too because I'm I'm constantly changing my mind because it's such a Uh Fertile like medium it's so it's so new And there's so much potential That it's hard to land on an idea to execute this Like when you start thinking about it your mind goes a mile a minute because I know you want to do um

Vr christ a vr christ Simulation which I you know, I keep thinking like I could put that together for you on an afternoon Which I I'd like to do that So that you could just even something like really basic that you could it mean a lot put up Yeah, it would take like two seconds. I feel uh, I'll so I want to do that and it'd be fun to put it up Please pen. Yeah. Um, this is the thing people need to experience. Yeah um I keep thinking of uh, I want to tangent now into like

tangent Bible stuff because is there's a I think like there's a part in the bible where the The angels necks go up reach up to um our shoulders maybe reach up to The heavens or heads, you know, I don't know why I'm asking you this specific detail I'm hoping that you know it, but I feel like I've read it once Um, and that's something I also wanted to put in there too. Anyway Did the angels with like extending necks or I feel like it was either the heads necks or shoulders that reached up to the heavens

And that was in one instance of uh The bible the closest things I got to it is not angels In the hell of hungry ghosts, which is a bardo in the Tibetan book of the dead these beings have massive appetites But these tiny little necks that attach to like big old mouths. Yeah, so if they want to eat

It it doesn't matter how hungry they are because they can only swallow like little particulates like crumbs because that's how big their necks are A mess Um, cool the uh, you say yeah, so vr So, uh, I love vr. I don't know you've maybe you've only you've just begun like sort of talking about vr On on your podcast and it's so much fun listening to you talk about it with the people that come on um It's something that I want everyone to experience Because and it's something that you can talk about

Uh forever, but until Someone tries it. They can't understand How like radical it is. It's like talking about a dream or something. Does someone who has an experience right? That's like boring is boring as fuck. Yeah, it's like you're telling someone a dream and you're like really enthusiastic about it And they're just like shut please shut the fuck up. Yeah, um, and I've experienced that a lot Uh, because I love vr and I keep trying to make people try it. Um, but once they try it doesn't matter how uh, How old they are or how averse to technology they are Um, they just so we've talked about this giggle that pours out of people when they're trying it

It's like this all their defenses drop And they and they can't help themselves From going It's this cute little like innocent laughter that just comes out of people when they're trying virtual reality for the first time And it happens all the time and I keep I wait for it when I'm putting someone through it for the first time and um anyway, so it's it's It's it's pat powerful. It's and it's um Transportive and it's uh, and I feel like those are the

The strongest words that I can use to describe it You you really do your eyeballs really are telling your brain where you are in space right and people call it existing In dual realities because you know that you're in someone's living room Like you have a set up here. I know that I would be here, but my brain would also simultaneously know that I was inside Uh An infinite fractal space like the thing you just showed me right which is like you know, you know, or you're inside of whatever Jurassic park or whatever anyone's making in the virtual world. You're also there your brain thinks that you're there

Uh, and it's shocking, right? shocking and you've uh Yeah, I don't know. Do you have any thoughts I I'm gonna stop well. Yeah. Well because yes, it's it's a um it it's Well, it's it's shocking because it's it's teleportation for one It's it's something most people

No one is experienced outside of dreaming Which is like to suddenly be in a completely new place. Yeah with zero Uh, but completely conscious Of this experience. Yeah, so it's almost a form of time travel in the sense that if you want to get from point A to point B There's always going to be some temporal element to that journey from point A to point B No matter what it is get from your chair to the bathroom or from your chair to southeast asia There's a certain number of beats that are going to happen between you and there, right? VR

So suddenly there is no Time at all and so and you're instantaneously in a completely new zone. Yeah, and you can and within that zone you can manipulate Uh, not just the space that you believe that you're in but but time time itself sometimes because I've heard about experiments where Um and VR you can control how fast the sun moves And a lot of people who are using VR are experiencing Lost time which I've experienced too When I was playing sound self which Something I'd also like to talk about because that's my favorite experience. Um

Right now. Can you describe sound self? Yeah, it's hard. I think so. I think I can it's hard to describe maybe Yeah So uh So it's a it's a game that's driven by your voice and that coaches you to make these long drawn out sounds that influence the visuals inside the game this this kaleidoscopic visuals that um mover uh I don't know but I so but it's so much more than that because

Of the nature of VR and because of the the the transport of qualities that it has like you're not just looking into a kaleidoscope You're like traveling through Uh An alternate reality really. I mean it's through something through abstract Space through abstract ideas That has as its seed your voice. Yeah, this yeah and your voice Is influencing these visuals you're you're saying oh It coaches you to make these long drawn out sounds

and to breathe and just breathing In a game in a game that tells you to take a deep breath um Is already like fucking up your reality as you know it I think because it's it's uh to tell Just like if you did it right now if you're driving the car and you're listening to this podcast if you breathe in You

Automatically are already feeling better and it happens every time right and this game is telling you to do that So you so you're already feeling Different at the very least and I don't know is there is a better way to talk about it? Well, I mean you're you're the the the thing itself is to see an instantaneous result from whatever Thing you're intoning is a pretty spectacular thing because usually the way You know if you want to here's how you try sound self without virtual reality

Go out to eat with your friends And start talking shit about somebody and watch the way that your friends react You'll see the reflection of the sound you made and the kind of diminishing Quality of your friends interaction you'll see that they're going to either chime in when the sound you made By making equal sounds talking shit about this person Maybe they'll try to like avoid the subject change it But whatever you'll in the same way that like if when you watch the time lapse footage of bread moldering

You know like or fruit rotting you can watch when you get around your friends and start talking about how shitty the world is You can watch in a very small way Them wither with the sound that you're making because you're affirming a shit universe. So to have like this like visual representation of that so that what the noises you make get replicated in some Mysterious way, which I have no idea. They're doing it. I don't know either It's what it's teaching you is that your sounds have power. Yeah, and that's a very valuable lesson Um, the coolest thing that happened to me was at some point

Uh, I felt like I saw a creature. I felt like I saw like it might have been like 200 meters away And it was this floating entity And I stopped making sounds. I was really Engaged and I was really felt you know, I was uh I've been making sounds for about 15 minutes. Yeah, so

Um And when I saw the thing far away, I shut up and I just watched it for a while And then uh, can you describe what it looked like? It was it was it was constantly changing and it was it was White or gray ish. It was an orb shape. It was like a And uh, but I just I just thought that it it was alive Versus a lot of the other visuals that I had seen in the experience. What made you think that? The way it was moving? I don't know. Is it just uh, well one, uh

I think just because maybe it uh, it looked More concrete than the other things that were that were swirling around And also that it was singular and it was Centered within my view and it was far away and floating And I just thought that and uh, either way I I watched it for a while Uh, and then I reengaged it by speaking the other thing that um sound self is doing is it It's giving you feedback Through headphones like when you're making sounds the game's giving you your voice back to you, right?

And it's like pitching it maybe lower and higher at the same time But it's it's doing it's and it's doing more than that. I feel like I think binaural beats are involved and uh, so I felt like I was Mmm communicating with something the whole time Because at the end of the experience The sounds pulled away

From me and I could just hear my voice again and I felt Lonely and I felt like scared Because I had been in contact with something And uh, and now I was being ripped out of that and You know, I was I was really I was really into it. I love I love it I love it because it can it took me out of my Reality and that's what I love about VR is that it has the power

to do that instantaneously and the the the to contact a an entity through sound Of course is like the one of the uh fundamental occult principles, which is that we can use a series of intentional sounds

To draw into our subjective experience an entity So it doesn't really fall that far out of what any ancient Yeah Wizard would be doing in some alchemical laboratory Which is like what happens if I make these sounds and then boom, right? There it is. Yeah, and when we put our fucking I don't mean to keep going back to this

But we when we put these massive radio telescopes in the middle of a mountain in China and point it in the direction of the void It's an it's a similar thing, which is we're all crying out Hello Yeah, and when it answers That's where things

Get pretty weird You know because it's not supposed to answer. Yeah, but it does It does you're I mean, I'm you're talking about maybe some answers like as I know you've even countered I'm saying prayer. Okay pray because the experiment is prayer adverse people are fascinating me because they uh they uh people who are

Against prayer It's if you've attempted prayer And you're against it. I get it But a lot of people Look up look upon prayer as a kind of like primitive confused What would you why would you do that? There's nothing out there, man except you that's it. You're a fucking Swirl a cyclone of matter Go ahead and yell out to the void all you fucking want, but there's nothing there

And I'm certainly not gonna partake in that ridiculousness You know like what Dawkins Maybe I I wonder how many times Dawkins is prayed if I got to be around Richard Dawkins Who has one of my favorite quotes by the way right now top most favorite quotes, which is Death is the anesthesia that saves us from the pain of infinity And you have to process it. It's pretty cool. It's good man. It's good But I would love to ask Dawkins If he's ever like tried for like a month

to pray and if if he has using his Razor sharp intellect and his ability to discern The real from the false Has he experienced even a subjective shift in his consciousness? I'd love to know I'd love some because someone like Dawkins is the perfect person to do the experiment but I know personally If I pray if I sit down in the morning and just say a prayer like

And I use simple words Because I don't see the point of it's just easier for me. I use it as a form of like Convenience a term of so I use god as a term of convenience. So if I sit down in the morning and I go, oh, please god help me To not be such a selfish asshole. I'm and to to try to give more than I usually give today and if And if I can serve you a little if I can really be your servant or do something that That you would want me to do please help me do that if there's anything you can do some

Something like that not as clumsy as that usually I'm more confident because I I get embarrassed to say it on the podcast but uh Some version of that That's a better day Than when I don't do it. Yeah I don't know why but it's better. Usually do you put it? Is there a difference for you between prayer and Like mantra? Yeah, okay mantra is cool for like

um Focusing I love mantra Uh chanting harry krishna. Um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, um, it just sounds cool. Um, um, um, um, um But if you like do an actual like Um You know calling out or whatever It's it's way different. It's very personal So yeah, when you had this sounds self-experience. Yeah

It's like, whoa, I guess that like one thing that I've thought about technology is it's the you know, like you want to see the invisible man You throw paint on him Ah, there he is right the invisible man the way you like catch an invisible being as you throw paint on it And now you can see it because the paint's covering it up and now it's not invisible anymore The same way I think technology Is like the paint that we're throwing on this esoteric thing that is up until this point been non-quantifiable Yeah, but now we're like yeah starting to see it a little bit. Yeah, um Presence like there's a lot of spiritual words. I mentioned this to you on the phone one time that that are being used now to describe

Uh virtual reality And what are the use of technology? Well presence is one of them. Uh, I wish I could I wish I had a list But I just keep noticing it. Um Uh I can't elaborate but I don't I don't know if you consider that uh a spiritual word but for me it feels like Something I wouldn't normally hear well in the Conversation about technology. I'll tell you this when the washing machine came out I'm pretty sure they want people who are like you got to see this washing machine

Like this means everything. Maybe there are people like it's great. You know, you don't have to like Throw your shit in a bathtub and like hit it with a broom and soap but this technology creates a missionary spirit and people who've encountered it and The missionary instinct which I certainly have anyone who comes over to my house including my cable guy Like a guy came over to

I was having problems with my internet connection. So this guy came over Fixed my internet connection And then I'm like, hey man. Have you ever seen Virtual reality and he's like no I've heard about it though. I'm like, do you want to see it? He's like, yeah So like I I put the he put the vibe on Put the headset on I showed him the blue the whale encounter And watching this guy stand in my living room. I've never met this guy before but just what you were talking about That laugh comes out of him. And then he's like

Oh my god Oh my god Oh my god. He takes it off. He looks at me. He's like, this is like when we had acid I'm like, yeah, it's amazing. And as he's leaving. I'm like, well, I have a great day and he's like, well, I am now And it's like, yeah, why are you having a great day? Well, he's having a great day because in that moment for the first time in his life outside of using psychedelics he experienced a respite from the burden of A physical form right from the burden of

The the repetitive phenomena of the universe that we call default reality and the implication of a kind of technological victory over this kind of Rather oppressive blindfold

Which is the ceaseless Input of the phenomena surrounding most human beings as they move throughout their day Yeah, well, maybe It's a liberating technology is what I mean And I think that feeling is what I'm trying to describe trying what I'm talking about when I I say that there's spiritual language is being used. Maybe it's not maybe it's not spiritual, but it's um Representative of Getting outside of your body. I don't know the right term term is

Um Dang it. I lost my thought. Well, you you you're One one thing that I read on reddit on the hdc vive form on reddit. Do you ever go to that? Reddit hd the reddit vive subreddit is great And there's a lot of smart people on there posting about the vive and vr and somebody I wish I remember their name Said what what what this technology has done Is it's given us a reference point that we didn't formerly have so

When I take off my virtual reality goggles and go into the natural world I can look at it and kind of get an idea of what kind of processor it might take to run this experience The level of detail is shocking in this Default reality when you like really look at a thing, of course, we're limited by the goggles that we're wearing which is our physical form I'm a 42 year old dude to like when I zoom in on stuff But there's a little I got some smudges on my lens man I can't get off at this point, but I can compensate for it

But it gives you a reference that we haven't had before that's that's one one aspect of it I think transcendent transcendence is the word i'm looking for like uh, it At this out of body experience that you can have Um identity but like this relief of of your sense of self Is something that I can give you In in an instant Because you was the hands that you're looking at inside virtual reality become your new hands whatever they are if they're crab claws or

logs or fish You know intestines like these are my hands and after a couple minutes looking at your New crab hands. You're like I've always had crab hands. Yes. I am crab hands man. Yes, and um And right now the vibe Uh can only is tracking your head and hands. That's what you get Um, and so you're you're this floating like rayman character. You just have these floating bits Yes, and uh, but it all just sort of in the world is can be cartoony and after a few minutes

You're just like the world has always been cartoony. Yeah, um, and then when you pull it off And you come back to you know real reality you're like reality Yeah, and you're and uh, you're like this This is uh, yeah, it takes a couple minutes to readjust. I think yeah to believe that the this new reality is what It has always been. We're right and and so now you have a technology that is functioning Is a spiritual teacher because the one one of the fundamental teachings uh in hinduism is the This world we're in is called maya

maya means illusion And so this is the fundamental teaching like this thing that you think is real is not real It's not real And this is this this teaching, you know, it come it goes into science which is like, look you can't You can't trust your senses to determine what the truth is It's as real as we can trust our eyeballs to tell something is real Yeah And the same thing happens when you put the the vibe on like that reality is as real

As as we can sense it and our eyeballs are telling your brain that it's real But you know At least until you get into the trance of the game. Yeah, this is not real. Yeah another thing, you know outside of the vr The giggle that you pointed out Which now I notice when people use the the vr in my house The other thing that's cool to watch is a person hold their hand in front of their face. Yeah Nothing's there. Yeah, so it's like to to feel the impulse of movement And to not have any visual

Corollary like your hand as up until this point When you hold your hand in front of your face, there's a hand that feeling of moving your hand in front of your face Hand appears to just have the feeling of intention, but no visual Confirmation of the movement is incredibly psychedelic. Yeah, that is is a fundamentally psychedelic moment because another Uh pillar of these teachings is you are not your body So not only is this reality that you think is reality and illusion But this body that you think is you

In no way shape or form is what you really are. Yeah, so these two things are being awesome. Yeah Yeah, that's cool, man. Uh I love that so much I love Feeling that because I don't have maybe the words all the time to Express or even understand that idea, but it's something that Comes to you and whether you want to or not when you're trying out vr for the first time

You can't help it because you're not in your own body anymore and you're Experiencing some lesson It's just it's just happening. Yeah. Um, and anyway, so I guess maybe to answer your question. That's All of that everything we were just talking about is the stuff that I care about the stuff that I'm trying to Um put into a a game a game that you can download for your you're working on a game. Yeah, um, Are you is this a solo project? Do you have a are you collaborating with anybody? Yeah, um, I met uh Dude named ryan nelson at an oculus rift convention

And we were just standing in line and he started talking to me about Um combining an eeg reader with vr and Uh The next morning I was like I called him up because he gave me his card and I was like, let's start making that Um, and he did it. He made this awesome prototype where we bought this inexpensive eeg reader and

We had it on I had it on my brain and uh I chilled out enough. I felt I tried to sort of zone out and the more I zoned out Um, I was able to levitate up off the ground inside virtual reality. I'm not explaining this well enough but I had a vr headset on and and uh an eeg reader that was touching my the front of my forehead and when I was uh We were trying to be happy and chilled out If you did that you would levitate inside of vr. That's what I'm trying to say. Yeah, and uh, it was great

And like I I I chilled out I lifted up off the ground and then once I lifted up I looked down and I was like, oh, shit. I'm up off the ground and that made me concentrate and lose my Bliss as state and then I fell felt you plummet down to the ground. No, I have talked about this I never give your name because I I didn't know I I didn't know if I was allowed to say it was I have mentioned this before to people because to me it is the ultimate spiritual metaphor which is the moment you even in dreams when you're flying Like you were saying earlier when you realize you're flying You're fucked you immediately start falling. Yeah, the way you fly in a dream is to be

Of person that flies not a person who's aware that they fly. Yeah, so to Create a technology that mimics this metaphysical state Yeah, and it's I mean and it's something that you can do when you're awake and train yourself To stay in that state of mind, which is totally like EG readers have been around since the Like four forties or something. I don't know. I feel like that's correct Because they only they discovered brainwaves Back then I think and anyway, it's something that I feel like should be in our our daily lives like we should be training these muscles because it's something we have

energy coming out of our heads that we can Use as a resource, but there's no clear clear way to use to use that But once I was trying it I was like what I have this Super power and I haven't been tapping into it my for my entire life I wish I had been training my brain to know how to calm itself or to concentrate hard. I did a test using a this other EG reader Where I went the opposite direction

I just imagined like killing somebody with a knife and like taking his guts and Grabbing him out of his stomach and stuffing him down his mouth a classic and then uh, and it was like Like the reader the little meter on this app that I was using to see how my brain was reacting was just Sky-high and just peeking out so the opposite so you so not only have you learned how to do this thing But you can also do it's opposite from knowing how to do the thing Yeah, and and it's all like I mean I don't know all the names of the the brainwaves, but We were just averaging out all of them to some

Degree so we had two outputs Like you know that we called calm and we called Concentration which is all just made up. I don't really know what those mean There's also brainwaves that you only admit when you're sleeping and we were Joking around about having the last the final boss level be this thing where you just lay down and fall asleep And that's how you beat him because you can get these brainwaves Uh, and then when you wake up you've you've sort of exited this listen man. That's the smartest game

I've ever heard of a game where you're engaging if you could figure out a way to translate that you're translating that into battles Well, sort of we had a bunch of uh, jesse moinehan was helping us Uh Come up with like levels like conceptually you were moving through Layers of of of afterlife or of heaven or of Astral planes like we're just like sort of traveling Beyond our own reality in this game and there were doors gates and you had to get through them by using your brainwaves

And the whole time you have to be calm You have to be you have to be be completely like it not just calm, but like absent of of of concentration absent of of Thought it was really really hard to do which made it really really fun as a game It was like really challenging to clear my mind enough to like move move up to levitate. Um, I'm rambling now Where's the game? We gave up on it because No one's gonna buy an eg reader

A computer that can run vr a vr headset and our software. It's like there's just too many things that people you know We were trying, you know We're also trying to like i'm trying to start a business So I can't just make um art. What's the business? Games just something I can download Something you can download on on steam that was you know, that's my goal right now is to make a game that you can play With the the vibe on your computer that you own got you and it was just the eg reader I think was just one step too far

From it. Well, it's a big ass because you're already dealing with the technology Yeah, that people that no one's even gonna buy right now skeptical about buying to add to that You would have to have to but I'll tell you man. I'm sure future Vr goggles are going to have some form of eg reader built into them I would imagine that would just be well that's already in the works and you can find that online Someone's already doing that. Um, I can't remember the name of the device, but Uh, that's that's already made You know what I would bet I bet it's got a pretty cool fucking name

Yeah, thwark. Yeah the thwark a denovian thwark or some kind of man I um I gotta tell you man. I'm a little sad to hear Because I've been fantasizing pen That you've been working on this crazy levitation game Yeah, and it's something I've been looking forward to having And uh, I'm sad to hear that it's no longer in process because yeah

As a as a meditation trainer It's like You can really trick yourself Into thinking that you're doing something when you're not doing it Especially with meditation. Yeah, you know, you could really imagine. Oh, yeah, I must be hitting the place just because I'm Confused or something but to have a to again, we're talking about Technology as a tool of quantifying the formerly unquantifiable You know, and it's not as though

These brain states that come from meditating Are unquantifiable. It's just that people don't have access to an EEG machine. Yeah, it's only like a hundred bucks. You can get them online But to note to to have a visual Indicator of Yeah, what what energetic states your brain is throwing out Yeah, well, I mean any enter any EEG reader that you bond line will come with an app It'll come with some software and and sometimes it'll be like a cool visualizer But maybe there aren't any VR apps yet

There might be you couldn't pair the game down a little bit just so that people who already have an EEG reader could Experience it. Uh, we could do it. We could do it. Um, and maybe we will come back to it, but Every second that I'm not trying to Sort of make something that I think people might buy I'm I feel like I'm I'm trying I'm trying to like Be self-sufficient and I'm trying to make I'm trying to make money, right?

But I'm also trying to make something far out. So I'm trying to find the middle ground right now Um, and that's just what I what you have to do. I think so. Yeah, I think so I mean right now my friend and I we're just making like magic spells that you can cast in VR and it's Uh, like I'm modeling a small man Inside of an acorn that you can pluck from a tree and open the nut and take the man out and squish him up and shove him in a pipe And like smoke his guts and then like some psychedelic effect will like appear over your eyes And so everything I approach I'm trying to approach it with uh, this perspective like trying to put mystery into Um, trying to create a world that feels fully realized

um I'm really inspired by uh, scion worlds games Cosmic Osmo Is something that I played when I was a little kid And you might not remember it, but if you look it up, it's just um, you know, there's You there's a spaceship and you click on it and you go inside the spaceship

And then you can travel to a planet and there's a moon And there's a there's a there's like a plant on the on the moon if you click on the plant Um, it'll drop a piece of fruit and then you click on the fruit And you zoom in on the fruit and you and and the door opens up inside the fruit And you click on the door and you go inside the door And it just goes it just keeps going and it's just uh, it's just fun And it's a world that's full of interesting. You know what it reminds me of. Yeah, what did you ever uh read ender's game? Yeah, I I'd listen to it on remember that

They the weird like fantasy game that they had that was kind of like a psychological evaluation tool or something and it's like Very organic and fluid. You could do all this stuff and infinite stuff inside of it very psychedelic But I mean, I don't know what honestly what you just described to me just sounds like Please god Finish it. Yeah. Well, I think that's something that I think people would dig and it's uh, It's something that I would love to make and it would make you feel fulfilled That's the other thing I'm trying to do right now is make something that I think is

worth making To me and for me um Giving people and myself the opportunity to feel transported to a place that's full of Mysterious things like that is what I want Um, so that's what I'm trying to do and I feel like that's what most people are trying to do in vr right now Because that's what it does. That's the nature of it. You can go somewhere else and

And live inside that that other place. Well, I mean, this is the this is the Uh, the call of the thing what what's what's really cool about it is when you come to the to vr You don't just experience it It it it's like it's imbuing every single person who comes inside It's it it's inspiring them Make more of this You know everyone at least most people that I show it to when they take off the goggles

They're like, I wish I had this Yeah, I wish I could be this or go to this place or I wish it had more of this So everyone wants it to be more real too. Everyone wishes they you know They had feet everyone wants to see their entire body. Yep. Um, everyone wants to be able to walk Uh Without limitations because right now there's a there's a cord and we teleport, you know, like that's the that's the That's one of the fundamental What apparently is one of the big obstructions right now is that the uh

To move in virtual reality fucks with your vestibular System. Oh man. So we can't like we don't we don't know how to overcome that yet so But i'm fine with teleporting around look i don't like Once i'm inside minecraft and vr and i'm teleporting and i'm standing on some ledge That that that's what's really curious to me is like I think when I think of like memories video game memories in other words like think of like a great video game that you love binding of isaac

uh, I don't know um A game you've really played for a long time. Um mist mist Maybe mist is different. But when I think of like because mist I you know what mist i've got mist is It appears that the storage mechanism For certain types of video games is different than the storage mechanism for other types of video games. So Dark souls the majority of dark souls that I play It all is kind of mushed together into a kind of dark swirly desperate

never ending cascade of failure whereas like Whereas um, uh in virtual reality Uh when I consider like god, I'm sorry. This is so vulgar but porn versus vr porn Yep Porn, yeah, I don't remember any when I think back to porn. I've looked at It's the same thing just a swirl of failure

But when I think when I when I think of virtual reality porn It's crystal clear in there man. Like my brain is recorded sure you're writing those memories in a clearer way Then you would if you were just watching. Yeah a flat image exactly So so whatever it's the way that it's like storing information for these games when I think of like Longbow in the lab When I remember it, I remember it in a very clear way. I remember it as the time I was standing at the edge of this Tower blasting right the the the the memory

Castle what do you call it the the when you're when the technique that people use when they're the memory Where you're like it's a room a furniture or whatever. Yeah, I imagine like imagine like flashcards like training for a test and just like filling a I don't let you call it the castle. There's a there's a proper term for it the memory something and then When you add to it the combination of new tropics So it's like not now. This is something there's a what's that? It's the substances you take that are IQ enhancers like there's a few right now that are I mean when I went to the shit doctor Along I'm sorry to call him a shit doctor, but he was a pill mill doctor like you go and be like, hey, can you give me a prescription for

Vicodin and he'd be like, yeah, sure. How many milligrams do you need? Like You would look on his phone when when you were again, of course when I say these things I make them up It didn't really happen to me. It's part of the character I like a gonzo kind of drug dude sometimes that I put out But yeah, I remember going to him this imaginary fictitious doctor He went an imaginary way got busted recently and can in an imaginary way no longer prescribe medicine Which in an imaginary way is a very good thing for probably most of the world But one of the things he said to me was

The problem because I was getting I thought if I got on at all then I could finally write Totally wrong. Like I just when I take Adderall. I'm just more aware of how non productive I am It does nothing for my creative output But he was saying the problem with this drug is that in schools Kids who aren't on it Are are getting lower test scores than kids who are on it. So now we have a problem that Oh, right. Yeah in the same way with athletics, there's doping and if one person dopes everybody's got a dope or there's no

Competition anymore. It was no new tropics. You're hitting this exact same place where Kids who are on these substances are going to do better than kids who aren't on the substances and as far as Test scores go, which is of course no indication of a being's Intelligence or value as a human on this planet, but as far as memorizing bullshit getting on trucker speed derivatives Apparently does help you in that direction. So That's what a new tropic is so In the same way the combination of technology with

new tropics Maybe micro doses of lsd Micro doses of psilocybin Micro doses of mdma mixed in with some kind of flash card language memory palace. Yes memory palace could potentially create A revolution in education. I think that's the entry point For vr. I think it could be for a lot of people is buying this

Expensive thing, but it will empower you to become a surgeon in your living room. Like you'll you can you can you can operate on a virtual body Just by yourself in your living room and and and train yourself to do complex Medical procedures you could do it. You could fix a car, you know, you could open up a virtual hood on a on a truck Yeah, and changing it and changing and changing engine out Um, I don't know sky's the limit, right? And if you had all of that, uh inside Your home Well, it's crazy. It's crazy and you'd be learning everything

In in a first person in the most real way possible But here's where it gets really crazy pen the uh, there's a So there's a book that you should start reading if you haven't read it already called super intelligence by nick bostrom And what he says is okay, how do I so it's like these are the pathways there? You know about this book. You told me about a little bit. Yeah, I've about it for a second These are the path. How do we get to a super intelligence on this planet? So the question is will There be a super intelligence on this planet in other words Will there be something that has a

Uh thinking capacity That exceeds the human mind will that exist on the planet? The answer is clearly. Yes, that's going to exist We think there is a high probability that that will happen When we don't know but we do have the feeling. Yeah, this is definitely going to happen So the book is a brilliant Uh and and somewhat confusing because I I'm not a nick bostrom genius So a lot of what he's saying gets really muddied up in my mind, but here are the pathways to achieve super intelligence Genetic, you know like eugenics like we can do breeding programs to create really really smart people

That's one way to do it. But That's a very inefficient way. It's going to take a long time Like if we started doing it now Like even now if we somehow overcame all the ethical and legal legal hurdles to creating some terrible Brave new world level breeding program where we incubate the smartest beings and then Somehow recombine them to create smarter beings. You're still looking at 15 to 20 years

Two decades from now that we're going to have the first product of that Which probably won't be the ultimate result of that. It'll be several generations And that's with that gene manipulation gene manipulation because we still have to deal with like human children being educated And giving them the information they need to be the little fucking world conquering super geniuses. So Chances are that's not the way we're going to get a super intelligence on this planet It's going to be a machine intelligence more likely. And so then he goes into like, well, how do we get to a machine intelligence? And one of the things he says is it may be That it's some combination of a genetic

Program that creates humans smart enough to then make the machines that wake up to become Super intelligent, but so then when you realize that virtual reality Could very well be The training program that the universe has in I don't know Brought to us. Yeah to begin to teach us at an accelerated rate So that humans can then have the potential to bring This intelligence called a super intelligence Into this dimension. That's where it gets interesting, which I think is what it is

I think virtual reality is one of the bridges Leading us in the direction of the creation of a super intelligence, which Coincidentally is no different than us contacting an alien intelligence. It's all leading to the same place It's all leading to the contact with the things smarter than us That we don't know what it's going to tell us and if we did then it wouldn't matter And that's what I think vr is it's moving us in that direction and the missionary compulsion that we all feel is the sort of the Magnetic draw of this being that is inviting all of us to be

It's midwives Cool man What's fun, um, I can't wait and then super intelligent beings will make Ultra intelligent beings and then ultra intelligent beings will make Hyper hybrids. Well, no one of my friends actually told me something that was really quite sad I really sad interpretation of it, which is uh Well, there's this book I have now called sapiens my friend gave it to me. I just started reading it basically like we're home with sapiens, but

But there were a bunch of different sapiens living on the planet at the same time We killed them all We're vicious wiped them all out. We fucked them Killed them and eventually now we're all that's left So someone I was talking to a really smart fella was like, well, yeah, maybe what's gonna happen is We're gonna make machines really smart And they're gonna be filled with love And they're gonna be like, okay. Okay. Let us teach you now how to be as smart as we are

And then the moment we get as smart as they are we're like, fuck you We don't plug them because we're sapiens which means wise by the way It's almost like a sarcastic term for what humans are home with sapiens wise men But it's like, of course, that's what we call ourselves You know, it's a really dire thing. We think the ai's gonna destroy us But maybe the ai's going to like give us the gift of a higher intelligence and we destroy it Who knows all I know is I can't wait to say hello Yeah, you know, um, so yeah, I keep wanting to follow you down the the alien

Tangent because you brought it up like four or five times just sort of reaching out and finding life out there and I've I've really gotten into it lately. Um the past few years just going down the youtube Hole of alien experiences because right experiences are people who've Uh met aliens extraterrestrials who've Um, who've had it who've had a nice time, right? And they want a different each themselves

Uh, maybe I that'd be cool if I was I want to be I want to believe you came into contact with a thing That you grogged as being an intelligence outside of yourself I did I did I I did I bought I I definitely was there and bought into that when I was checking it out Um, but I'm I remain skeptical all the time of everything. It's fine. So I you know, I hope I am. I hope I am But also like so they want to differentiate themselves from abductees who've had a shitty time hanging out with aliens, right? and my one of my favorite experiences is student named david huggins

and he talks about Uh, because he was Visited by aliens and taken up to somewhere and he's had lots of kids like human alien hybrid children and they just like They just got right to it most of the time. They just started like having sex with them all the time and at some point he was like Slow down and he taught

The aliens Foreplay and like how to like hug and kiss a little. Yeah, so he's cool And he did some really rad paintings of like mantis men And his kids and what it looks like. Yeah, there's some people who um Their art Is is as close as we've got right now to like, you know, the Hubble telescope takes these incredible pictures of these vast nebula star They call them star nurseries nurseries for stars dust nebula that are just the most Fantastic beautiful easily anthropomorphized things that you've ever seen and in the same way that the artist functions as like valuable telescope

for for for these other realms And brings it back and there's a few artists like that who really very successfully Seemed to be tuning in on whatever this thing is, but uh, yeah, I think that the um humans are on a You know, I don't know about the fucking aliens, right? I don't doubt they exist. Yeah, I I understand why they might want to do it It's a great way to communicate with something To have sex with it is a very intimate and immediate way to say hi

Yeah In a very advanced being maybe that's their handshake is like to immediately just start fucking you because it's like What are we wasting all this of this like weird? Weird sounds out of your mouth. Look, let me show you my soul and what it's like to feel ecstasy. You know who knows I don't know so I an advanced being maybe that is the way they talk is through sex or through like what we call sex But I I would say that we are Going to intersect our species is is is through technology about to intersect with an alien

if it's a machine intelligence that we Create so to speak Like google makes it or something then the machine intelligence Is going to More than likely solve a lot of the problems that come in scanning the Universe to see if there's other intelligent life forms out there So that's going to lead to it even though the initial thing itself will be it

You know the moment that that we get An actual AI which some people say is an impossibility can't do it But the moment we get an actual a this is contact with the alien This is no different than sedi tuning in on the wow signal times a billion because it's it'll it's an advanced intelligence That's brand new to the planet That theoretically is going to be able to help solve a lot of us our problems or will fucking destroy us either way Our species right now

In mass is calling out to the void through prayer through occult rituals through Scanning the skies through the large hadron collider Through all the genetic experiments that seek to extend the human lifespan We as a whole Are saying a variety of prayers

And all of them have at their root Show yourself to me Oh great great beauty show yourself to me whether that's through math through jesus or through fucking And that's cool that you're one of those uh pioneers Yeah, thanks man Thank you. Thank you, pen. Thank you so much for coming on the show, man It's so fun to get to hang out with you. My pleasure. So it's fun to

It's fun to listen to it and it's fun to experience it like in person and uh, yeah, thank you. Yeah, thank you Big thanks to pendleton ward and a big thanks to fulton and roark for sponsoring this episode Don't forget to go to fulton and roark.com. That's roark.com use offer code family hour and you'll get 15% off these beautiful men's grooming products Also, remember to go through our amazon link if you like the podcast give us a nice rating on the itunes and subscribe to us And now here is a beautiful track from the holy sun's Brand new album in the garden, which is available on itunes

Here it is. It's my feeling Oh Point your finger at the sky You'll see just how hot for you my love is Oh No, no, no, no, no, I must be strong No, no, no, no, no, I can't be wrong I can't be wrong

It's my feeling It's my feeling And it means too much for me to have it's my feeling It's my feeling And it means too much to us Oh And pleasure Close your eyes and come to town hold your breath and feel what I am feeling

Oh No, no, no, no, no, I must be strong No I can't be wrong I can't be wrong It's my feeling It's my feeling And it means too much for me to have it's my feeling

It's my feeling And it means too much to us You