Duncan Trussell Family Hour - Timothy Showalter (Strand Of Oaks)

Episode Date: October 21, 2014

Timothy Showalter from Strand Of Oaks joins the DTFH and injects us with a sweet blast of pure unfiltered love.  Also a special announcement regarding the Christ Simulator.

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with triple protection from leaks, odor, and moisture. Dermatologically approved by the Skin Health Alliance. Tennis Sensitive Care Pads with Skin Comfort Formula, available online and in stores now. Hello, dear friends, it is I, Duncan Tressel, the Skrillex of podcasting, and you are listening to the Duncan Tressel Family Hour podcast, and I am here to shake my fist

at the dark Rupert Murdoch Disciples who are sitting in their evil towers, casting fear spells into the minds of all humanity. I'm so over it, man, I'm so over it. These disgusting bastards like Nancy Grace, Bill O'Reilly, Rush Limbaugh, you can go on and on and on with a list of these disgusting fear mongers. You know what they're like?

They're like spoiled toddlers who are sitting at the edge of a pool composed of human awareness, and they have pulled their swim shorts down and are spraying fear diarrhea in everyone's brains. That's what they do. They just have fear diarrhea on top of everyone. They infect people. It's a virus.

It's a virus that is worse than Ebola in the sense that it is a virus that when people have it, they don't realize they have a virus. In fact, they say, I'm just being a realist, man. Here's the truth. Today, optimism and realism are the same thing because we live in one of the most beautiful, incredible times in all of human history.

So much great news is popping up these days. They just cured a man's paralysis using cells from his nose. They are opening human trials on what could potentially be the cure for diabetes, and Lockheed Martin just announced that they may be able to build a fusion reactor within the next 10 years. These are wonderful, wonderful times.

Not to mention the fact that marijuana is slowly becoming legal, which is something that I dreamed about way back in the early 40s when I was a teenager. Shout out to all my marijuana trimmers out there. I keep forgetting to give you guys a shout out, and whenever I do live shows, marijuana trimmers will come and say they listen to this podcast

while they are trimming weed. So, Hare Krishna, thank you so much for doing that very important job of trimming marijuana, putting your lives on the line, risking, angering the monolithic dragon, and the prison industrial complex, likes to sick on people who are ultimately just farmers. Thanks for listening to my podcast,

and thanks for supplying all of California, and Seattle, and Denver, and all the other places where marijuana has been decriminalized or legalized with such wonderful medicinal products. We are very grateful for your hard work. Guys, it ain't easy trimming weed. That's an actual job. People have to sit in weird marijuana rooms

with scissors clipping that stuff away. It doesn't come like that. When you get the nice little labeled bags, or the nice little film canisters with marijuana in it, that's the end result of folks getting their hands just covered in sticky marijuana resin, breathing in marijuana pollen, and all the while fending off attacks

from hyper-dimensional super-intelligent entities who are desperately trying to dissuade them from their very important job of getting those sweet cannabinoids floating in the bloodstream of our species. Today's guest is Timothy Showalter. He's the lead singer of the amazing band Strand of Oaks, and what better way to introduce him

than with the title track from his most recent album, Heal. ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."ам halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese") puke is the track! ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"] ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"] ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"] ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"] ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"]

["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"] ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"] ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"] ["Holland You The Book In A Trellin' Force."am halottinos & playoffs & a smoothusäe Lebanese"] That's the track, Heal, from the new Strand of Oaks album called Heal. And Timothy Showalter is here with us today, but first some quick business. The Dugga Trussell Family Hour podcast is brought to you by the new California Barbershop. This is actually a free ad. They're not paying me a goddamn penny.

I'm just plugging them because this is my favorite barbershop to go to when I want to get my beard trimmed. This is an Echo Park. If you live in Los Angeles and you're looking for a great barber who gives great haircuts to, go to the new California Barbershop. It's located at 2203 Sunset Boulevard. Oh my God, will He give you the greatest trim on Earth? Yes. They will polish your head. They will sculpt your hair. They will sculpt your beard. You will wander out of there sparkling as though Jesus Christ Himself sneezed in your face. Go to the new California Barbershop and ask Him about the time He was giving me a beard trim and notice that there was a giant piece of egg stuck in my beard and said,

why should anyone have to deal with that? It really is my favorite barbershop. Go there. Getting your haircut is an American tradition. You don't want to go to one of these crappy pseudo bullshit barbershops where these people dress like they're extras and fucking Sweeney Todd overcharge you and make you feel like you should feel lucky for sitting in their goddamn stuffy place where you got to wait for nine hours just to get your fucking beard trimmed. New California Barbershop. Give yourself a new look today. Tell them the Duncan Trestle Family Hour podcast sent you.

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They give us 15 bucks. And if you really want to go nuts, there's a donation button located at DuncanTrustle.com. And thank you to all of you who have been donating to the podcast. I'm actually in the process, and this is probably a little too soon to announce it, but I'm actually in the process of setting up a subscription service to the podcast. It's a few months away, but basically it's going to be a really low monthly subscription that's going to give you access to extra podcasts, extra content, and I don't know what else. But it's a cool way to support the podcast.

We have that happening in the works. And don't worry for those of you who have no interest in subscribing to a podcast or feel that that is the electronic equivalent of the black mass. I will continue to release the same amount of podcasts that I currently do. But this is a way for people who want to support the podcast to get some extra content and get some stuff back. Let me know what you think. Post your comments on the idea of having a subscription service for this podcast at DuncanTrustle.com.

I really am interested in your ideas about the thing, and I'm curious about the best ways to implement it. If you have any ideas, let me know. Speaking of the forum, also there's a great thread happening there. People are working on building my Virtual Christ, which is basically the Virtual Christ experience. I want to have the ability to be crucified in VR space, to experience the POV of Jesus Christ as he stares out over the Roman soldiers who are so cruelly torturing him and just get that feeling because there's so many different works of art depicting the crucifixion but as far as I'm aware, no one has built a virtual reality Christ simulator yet,

which means that if you team up with the people at DuncanTrustle.com and collaborate with them and give us your skills and talents, whatever they may be, and help bring this thing into existence, then you will be one of the first people on planet Earth to build a virtual reality Jesus experience. That's making history. So go there, go to DuncanTrustle.com, pitch in, help us build this VR Christ. I have no idea how to do it, and I'm not really convinced that anybody in that thread knows how to do it. So we need programmers, we need money people. Do you have a million dollars injected into this project?

Let's make a VR Christ. Let's experience what it would have been like to be crucified, and then you can modify it. The idea of the thing is that it starts off as kind of just a basic Jesus Christ virtual reality crucifixion experience, but you can modify it just like you can with Skyrim. You can modify it so that instead of Jesus being on a cross made of wood, he could be on a cross made of sausages or he could be on a cross made of tiny little crucifixes or whatever you want to do. You're only limited by your own imagination. Jesus could be being crucified on a bigger Jesus, for example, whatever you want.

And instead of Roman soldiers, it could be cats, Jesus could be a goldfish, and he could be surrounded by cats who are crucifying a goldfish. Any of these things are possible, but they're not going to happen unless you, the software designer out there who actually knows how to do this stuff and somehow has a little bit of time to pitch in on this project, goes to DuncanTrustle.com, join the thread about the Christ Simulator, get in on that thread, help us build this thing. It really will be a historic moment when we can finally put on VR goggles and experience what it is to be crucified. So dive in, and even if you don't know anything about how to program or how to design virtual reality stuff, you can see that a lot of people there are throwing in ideas who don't know this stuff either. We need idea people too.

We want all of you to join together, fuse your minds, and bring out of the nothingness a virtual reality Christ experience. I need your help, guys. I threw an idea out there not long ago about the Podriff project, and a lot of people teamed up and joined in, and the BBC just did a story on it. So this can happen. All you guys have to do is work together and build something that I can enjoy later, because I don't know how to program, and the odds are really good that I'm not going to do more than ramble about the virtual Christ on this podcast. But let me tell you, if somebody builds a good Christ simulator, you better believe I'm going to be raving about it on several episodes of this show. Great.

All right, let's get this podcast going. Today's guest is a musician and singer. He is in a band called Strand of Oaks. His name is Timothy Shoalalter, and I was really excited because he contacted me a few months ago because he listened to the podcast. And up until that point, I hadn't had a chance to listen to his music, and I was thrilled to find that his music is incredible and is right up my alley. It's exactly the kind of, I don't know what the word, I'm sure that audio files out there know the word for this kind of music. I don't know what you call it. It's like, I think I heard the, now forgive me, Timothy, whoever's listening if I say that this is the wrong type.

Why are we trying to put his music in any kind of goddamn box anyway? It's great music. That's the point. It's beautiful, cool, soulful, beautiful, confessional, revealing music that is coming from somebody who is in the process of waking up. And I think it's a really amazing thing to know that this kind of music is getting out there into the world. Check out his new album, Heal. It's available on iTunes. I'll have links to the Strand of Oaks website and to Timothy's Twitter and all the stuff you need to connect with Mr. Showalter.

Now, everybody, please welcome to the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast, Timothy Showalter. It's the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast. It's the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast. Tim Showalter, welcome to the Duncan Trussell Family Hour podcast. Duncan, it's good to be here. Man, I gotta tell you. I've gotten so into Strand of Oaks, and I feel like it's like a gift from the universe that you reached out to me because you know how wonderful it is to be introduced to music that you like. That doesn't happen all the time.

Well, I think it's a mutual thing. I paid all this money to put out a record to have like a PR, whatever it's called, company. And the one goal I had was, how can I use this limited power to talk to one of my heroes? And I decided to weld that power into saying like, well, I will do all these crazy radio interview things as long as I can talk to Duncan Trussell. And that was because I mean, I, you know, just to jump into it right away, like your words and like listening to you are part of this record. I would, I mean, I would listen to your advice. And I mean, you're like my sage and like my spirit guide, I feel like, because it was in the midst of such craziness, I would have, you know, an hour or two hours to listen to you. And I just was, I know it's selfish, but I was like, I need to talk to him.

I don't know if I'm big enough to do that yet, but I just want to speak to this man. No, man. Oh my God, that's incredible to hear because I, as I've been listening to your music specifically to heal. I have, I've almost started crying several times listening to it because I feel so connected to the lyrics into the specific emotional state that whatever you're resonating with. I think we're both resonating with the same thing. Yeah, man. This, this album heal, it is, you created a very special thing here, man. I, we have so much to talk about, but I just want to, I just, hold on one second.

God, we have, we have so much to talk about, but yeah, I just want to talk about the, the, the, this album feels like you had some kind of spiritual awakening or something. Yeah. I mean, I think, and this is what I was like, I was very excited to talk to you about because I feel like in listening to you and listening to your approach to life. I have always been fascinated by your, like, you're able to reference things and you're able to reference actual, you know, you could actually pull something from be here now or, you know, like a Buddhist, you know, theory. And for me, I don't have that kind of knowledge. And I think it's just impulsive that I feel that way. And, you know, I always felt like I did go through something, but I'm still, even after hundreds of interviews, trying to understand what happened in my life to get me to the point to make this album. And, you know, I'm, I'm slowly, but surely learning where I, where my subconscious kind of took over my normal daily thought to write these songs.

You think it's the subconscious? That's the, that term subconscious, you know, I, the more, it's kind of, that term is like the same, isn't that for psychology, the way they say God kind of? Yeah, exactly. It feels like this is kind of like, you know, it's, it's catch all of things that, and it works for someone like me who doesn't have the vocabulary to go deeper than what it is. I think subconscious for me feels like something that I don't understand, but can feel. And I think it was this matter of going through these, you know, this record came about for so many different reasons. And when you're a musician or you're a comedian or a writer, like your art form or your career is so intertwined with who you are as a person, that when I wrote Heal, it was essentially me writing my own narrative and perhaps where I was wanting to go instead of where I was. And, you know, I think it was, you know, I, it was the matter of being honest. And I wasn't honest. I went through these years in my life where I wrote records that I kind of liked, but I didn't like. And, you know, like the record previous to Heal was a record based around like astronaut farmers getting a divorce.

And like, why, why the fuck couldn't I just say like, my marriage is suffering, my, my personal soul is hurting every day, and I couldn't acknowledge the truth. And when it came time to heal, I just was, you know, it's so cliche to name your record Heal, it's kind of bullshit because you can't avoid the fact of saying heal 100 times when you're, you're trying to do that. But it truly is what I've, my goal was since, you know, really last year at this exact time, you know, I'm, I'm sitting in the same room, I'm talking in the same table that I wrote this record on, you know, literally like a year ago to the day. And it's actually, I just realized it's kind of emotionally overwhelming to think about, but you know, I just didn't want to go through patterns anymore. I had these patterns in my life where I would, I would just keep recreating this life that I had invented instead of what I wanted to live. And I thought that's what was most comfortable and what was not easiest, but what was available to me. And I just had this, there was this breakdown and I don't know how to pinpoint the breakdown. I don't know if it was 10 years of breaking down or one specific night. And I've been trying to understand which one it is really for the past year to think like, how the fuck did this record get made? And I don't, I don't remember how it started now. And I kind of remember, but then I don't at the same time.

Yeah, yeah, that, that is a funny thing the mind wants to do is to find the place where it, where, wherever, where something started, the mind always wants, is always trying to do that. And pinpoint, oh, well, you know, this is where I became an alcoholic or pinpoint, like this is the, you know, you'll hear like cheesy things, like, and that's the moment that I fell in love. But yeah, nothing really ever works like that. Does it usually? It's so much more complicated than that. And I, you know, I do remember though, like I was, I was on this tour that lasted forever, like, you know, playing shows and traveling around and, you know, which is awesome on the books. Like, oh, this dude gets to like, get paid money to play in, you know, across the world. But I remember I was playing a show in Sweden. And it was like in Malmo, Sweden. And I, I was playing this one song called Sister of Angeline. And I think the song is about like me looking at my ex fiance as a nun, who I wanted to fuck, but wouldn't let me fuck her or something. You know, it was like this, it was this horrible circumstance, you know, of like, you know, wanting this wanting to like fulfill whatever I felt about this person. And I hadn't played the song in a while and I played it. And my tour manager came up to me afterwards. And he was like this Dutch guy that was very straightforward and didn't didn't like put a lot of flowery language.

And he was like, you added three new verses tonight. And I was like, I didn't add three verses. And he's like, yeah, you screamed into the microphone for five minutes and then kicked your pedal board across the stage. I don't, I don't remember doing that. And I truly don't, I wasn't like over, I drank before shows, but I wasn't, you know, any more drunk than I was before the other concert. You know, following that night, like I sat at this table with these amazing random Swedish people. And we were just talking about normal stuff, but I realized in the midst of talking to them that I had never like I had been so lonely for years. I just didn't know, I didn't know how lonely I was until I actually spoke with people and felt some sort of human connection. And I think, I think the breakdown came with, I think the breakdown came with a good thing instead of a bad thing. And usually people are like, oh, this happened negatively and it made me lose my mind. But I think I lost my mind for a short while because I realized something positive. And I was holding on, I was holding on for something positive and I finally found it. And then that only showed a mirror to like how, you know, and depressed and all these losing my mind and going insane. I use these words too much because that's just, just like subconscious. It's a cheap word for a bigger feeling. But, you know, I just, I was filled with the fact that like I need to be more connected to myself and people and goals and all that. Yeah, and you can feel that in Heal. You can feel, it seems like what you're, a lot of people, when you were saying that Heal is like to name an album that, I think naming an album Heal in some circumstances would be a lazy, cheap thing if the album didn't reflect true healing.

And what I really love, I think Heal is the exact right word for that album. And what I really love when I listen to it is that it's reflecting the actual pain that comes from healing. And I don't know, maybe not everybody thinks this, but I know for the longest time I always associated healing with like in video games where there's like a bell sound and your hip points go back up. And it's just a nice experience. And I don't think a lot of people realize or fully understand that healing means going crazy. Yeah. Acknowledging your pain, being able to finally have the guts to look into yourself and understand that that thorn that's been stuck inside of you for your entire life isn't going away no matter how much you smile and no matter how much you pretend to be something you're not. It won't get, that thorn does not go away through lying. Yeah. And I think lying is such a perfect word to the idea of the worst thing to do. It's easy to lie to other people. I think we all do it every day. But when you lie to yourself and you're conscious of you lying to yourself, like when you tell yourself that it's, you know, I have this shit together. I have got this life under control.

And when you finally realize that you don't, it's all completely out of your control. And oftentimes in my life, I've tried to, I don't know if I'm, if I like pain or if I enjoy being sad or whatever. I would, I think when it came to this record, I decided that to look at the most horrific dungeon of my life, you know, like what is the worst thing I can imagine and what are the worst feelings and the ugliest feelings. And I actually used to put myself to sleep at night when I was younger, because I would think about the thing that I was most afraid of. And it was probably the fucking clowns and Pewe's movie or whatever. Like when they, because I love bikes and they destroyed his bike. And I was like, the clowns turned into demons and just I was probably like, I was probably like eight when I saw that. And it was the most horrifying thing. And, you know, but then the difference between being eight and being 32 is the most horrifying thing is like your marriage, not being what you thought it was and you being an alcoholic and a drug addict. And, you know, like, it's a little different than Pewe, but it's still the same idea of like, I felt safety and being honest with my fears. And I looked at it and I wrote and the record is not just about like, I've done all these interviews where people just try and pick out like, oh, your wife cheated on you. I was like, yeah, that's like 5% of the record. Like it's it's not just that it's it's easy to sensationalize that. But, you know, that's it's really like, I think there's just as sad a lines is, you know, of course, I had problems with my, you know, marriage.

And we both had problems. But I think the saddest line of the record is I say like, I stopped listening to music. And, you know, like, when you stop, when you stop doing something that is the core DNA of your existence, like, for me, it's music and records. And I remember like five years ago, I just stopped pursuing new music. Like, I didn't even know like bands like Arcade Fire happened, you know, I went into this whole of like, not appreciating what was my lifeblood. And, you know, that was, it was such a, it was such an essential role for to write this record. Like, I remember, I listened to, have you heard the newest national record? No, trouble will find me. No, it's, it's, it's like, it's beyond it's Mozart for someone of my age and it's just like, he says lines in it that are the absolute, like it encapsulate what it means to be an American male in like these strange times of like, whatever, you know, 2014. But it took one record to make me realize like, and that again, just like talking to the Swedish people, when I listened to that record, it had the same effect of like, I haven't actually listened to a record in five years. And this is what like, kept me from the brink of my teens and twenties of like, not, you know, disappearing, like I had records to do that for me. And I just became this like, really boring person that like didn't choose to do that. And I don't know where I'm going with this. It's just the fact that like, that is the status line of the record, like I stopped doing what I love. I stopped listening to music.

Well, you were going into, what do they call it, a pupil, pupil phase when the, and it's part of that. That's, I mean, you just melt down and you, and in those periods, I see this is the thing I really love about the, your album, because it's this kind of, and by the way, I'm not, I hope it, I don't want to put out there that there is a point in your life or anyone's life where everything is resolved and you wake up in the morning and feel like you're floating on clouds. I think that the first noble truth of Buddhism, life equals suffering. I think that just means it's like for us suffering is like the way fish have to deal with always being wet. It's the same thing. So, but I do think that there is evolution and growth that happens and, and what I love about hearing you talk about this and listening to your album as it shows the end result of this weird puke, this phase that we all will go into and come out of and then probably go into again. You can just feel the explosion of, of, you know, flowers growing up out of like soil in the beginning of spring or that awesome, the Vishnu principle or that rather the, the creative force, you know, the, after the destruction comes the growth. Man, you really captured that in that album. And, and, and I love the idea that, and that when you are, when you do find yourself not listening to music and frozen and whatever particular seemingly endless cocoon that you're in, if you don't have to resist that, if you understand that it could be leading to some greater understanding. It just, that's what I love about the Ram Dass teaching is like no matter where you're at, it's perfect and start, start, start there. Oh, that's, I mean, I, I think it was very healthy for me to realize, you know, and I have like family that are, you know, and I've flirted with, you know, like Christianity and things like that before. I think it was mostly just because I wanted something bigger than, I think I just wanted to live in the Hobbit, essentially, by the time I read it. And I was like, how do I get closer to Gandalf in my life?

Oh, that's great. That's a great question. Every, everyone should ask that. When you wake up in the morning, you should ask yourself that. Exactly. Like, how do I, you know, like, and for a second Jesus and Sunday school was that and then it was drugs and it probably still is drugs to a certain extent. But, you know, I, I think it was really important for me and maybe other people to realize that there's no safety net. Like, there's no end to the abyss. Like you have like, we have this existence that we're born into. And there's no like, the only person to stop you from falling all the way into whatever you're going to fall into is yourself. And you have, because I think I've, there's been a few moments in my life and, you know, one of them was, you know, many of them happened in the past year of just like, what is the point of doing this? Why, why do I have to do this? There's, there's no like, life manager telling me I need to get up tomorrow or continue to, you know, be a person or talk to people or have friends or be a husband. And I still don't know the answer to that. You know, I think I'm prone to looking at the, you know, I, like, my mom has always joked, like there's this video of me, like, when she took like, they must have gotten like a beta max video recorder or whatever, when I was young and there's a picture and underneath it, they have the time, the time clock of like, you know, Tuesday at 4pm or whatever. And like, I'm sitting on, I'm like five years old and sitting in the sandbox on my backyard. And it's like one o'clock in the afternoon. And then my mom films me just sitting at the edge of my sandbox looking at, and then there's a cut in the camera. And then I like, it cuts back to like 345 and I'm still sitting at the same sandbox. Just like, what was I doing at four? Like, you're supposed to be playing Burton Ernie or something.

And I'm just looking at the fucking endless abyss of my sandbox. Like, what is, what's the point? Do I build a building and then it goes away? Like, it's going to rain tonight. Oh, man, you got to stare into the sandbox. And this is, this is the one, this is, you know, it's so interesting when you look into the way society teaches you to be, and you realize that almost everything that people have been conditioned to do, is just based on industrial revolution ethics. And it generally just involves your identity, identity is somehow equated with your production. And man, that is such a lie. And it's such a satanic lie, really. And whenever I get caught up in that, it's always just the, that is when if I, if you want a recipe to be an asshole, get caught up in production, get caught up in how much you're producing or how much your friends are producing, or how much your wife or girlfriend is producing versus what you're producing. And forget it, man, you will find yourself deep in the valley of cunts, right? That's a quick way to get there. And the other, the, the coverse of that is the moment you give up the idea that production is meaningful at all. And you just let go of the idea that you are defined by the things you produce, and you stare into the sandbox, as you say, which is a beautiful way to a beautiful story. That's when you start connecting with what I think is the thing we call the subconscious. I think that's when you start connecting with that thing that makes you not remember kicking something across the stage or writing new verses or that thing where you're like, well, I wasn't drunk, but I wasn't there. That, that, that, you don't get to that place by printing out cubes of whatever your product happens to be. Yeah. And the whole thing is like, I, I'm constantly at odds with my upbringing. Like I grew up in Indiana. And like my, my grandpa was like, essentially like that Don Draper guy. Like I think he killed people. He was like, he was totally like an orphan from a farm in the depression and arose into like some kind of like successful business person to whatever degree. And, you know, my dad is a product of him. And then I was, I was brought out and, you know, I have, you know, I have a very normal family in which I love. And it's so amazing to rise as you get older, how much I act like the people that I thought I was not like at all.

Yes. And I, you know, I have like, I look like a extra from fucking Breaking Bad or something when I walk around the streets. And but I, you know, but inherently I am the same way as them. Like I want to like, there is this undying need for validation. And, you know, like I've been a band for a long time. And this, this tour that I just got off of like three days ago, like I was selling out shows and I never brought anybody to my concerts. Like nobody gave a shit about my band for years. And, you know, I sold the most tickets I've ever sold in Seattle. And after the show is done, I sat back in the green room and was completely empty. Like I didn't feel any good out of it. I was, I, because I felt like the, what was the purpose? Was it the purpose of being like the fact that it was this community of amazing people, like getting like cathartic together? Or was it my desire to sell out a show? And my band just looked at me like bewildered, like what's the matter with you? Like you just sold. I was like, it doesn't mean anything. Like, like it happened. I did it. And it's, you know, and in music and maybe like with what you do, like if you sell out a show, it's like, it should be this like drug of like, I just did it. Like I, there's no one, there's no room left for people in this space. Like I've, I've filled it all with whatever I've done. It's a crack pipe, man. You can get a temporary little rush when you base your life on numbers, but it really is a crack pipe. You know, I've never been on the Tonight Show with Jay Leno and I never will be because it doesn't. Thank God. But some comedians that for them, that is a, that is considered to be like a peak for them or like it's, they think when they're kids, they want to do that. And when they're, they just, they are getting on the Tonight Show is a big deal. I missed that conditioning. But for some comics, it was really a big deal. It is a big deal. And there's a thing I've heard several comics talk about, which is a specific depression. That overcomes you when you're, when you've performed on the Tonight Show for the first time, because when it's all said and done, you realize just like what you're saying, that there is no pleasure in the fruits of our action.

This is the Bhagavad Gita. You have a right to your action. You do not have a right to the fruits of your action. So when you get caught up in the fruits, the tickets, the Tonight Show, the numbers in your bank account, you will begin to become empty. I don't know if you've ever played the game Dark Souls. I'm sorry to nerd out on you. My little brother plays it and I get stoned and I watch him. I don't play video games. I just like to like be a witness to them. It's so cool. Well, those characters in Dark Souls, the more you die, you get hollow is what it's called. Oh my God. And the more you base your life on these ticket sales and numbers, the more hollow you'll become. And this is why I love Meister Eckhart, the Christian mystic, who says that the primary and only relationship is the relationship, and he uses the word God because he's a Christian, is the relationship you have with God, and that you could almost pretend to be a servant to God, the most supreme point where all beauty originates from. And if you were, imagine if there was a being like that. I don't know if there is, but let's say there were, and you were that being servant.

And imagine how ridiculous it would be if you were caught up in whatever little trinkets that that being was giving you from time to time. Instead of being completely absorbed and amazed by the fact that you get to be in the presence of this thing that is creating all life. You know, it's just a shift. As Timothy Leary says, it's picking up that record needle and moving it over one grid. You know, one notch. What do you call those goddamn things on records? Groove. Yeah, man, you gotta do get a new groove, brother. Yeah, and I think too, like, it's the idea of like, what is our own personal God, you know, and I think even like people who are religious, I just got really deep there, shit. Like, like they find their own, like, is their God the God of guilt? Or is it the God of like, you know, like self serving or trying to validate yourselves? And like, I have to ask, like, I'm not religious, but is my God the God of ambition? Like, is it the God of like, am I trying to, you know, like, I, you know, like with this record, I had a little bit more exposure and like I got to be on like a late night show. I was on like a Seth Meyers. And, you know, because of that, I felt like I felt like a finally like my parents and my grandma, they don't look at the internet.

They don't know what the internet is, like, but they know what like TV is and their friends know. And like, I was able to do this and like, and to prove that like, you know, like I was the weird kid. I was the, you know, my, my older brother is like a pediatric cardiologist. So I'm, and I'm trying to write existential space folk records or whatever. But it's, you know, it like, and that was another thing, like I did it, you know, like they were able to watch this and experience and have like proof that their sons, like it has something, you know, that he's doing. And it was beautiful and amazing, but it was also like, what, I mean, I did it. And that, and the promise once you do it, it is like crack. Like you said, it's a crack bite because you do it and it's over. You then have to go and like take a shit or like smoke a cigarette or something. Like it's over. Like I shook the hand. I got to, like, even this now, like even you are a part of this story. Like, you know, you're the, you were the dialogue of like, I don't know if you realize this, but bands that tour, I hate listening to records. I hate like listening to music, especially when you have like an eight hour drive, because it marks time so much. Like when I listen to, you know, if I listen to like Bruce Springsteen, I know every word, every drum part and it almost makes time go slower. So like, I did this one tour that was like a complete disaster a few years ago. And the only thing, it was just me and my friend, like in a small Honda and we probably listened to your voice probably 30 or I don't even know how many me.

I mean, that's why I listened to, you know, probably, you know, like 50 hours of your voice. And, you know, for me, talking to you now, it's like, is this yet another accomplishment? Like, I get to speak to someone that I really admire and look up to. And then the talk will be over. And like, is this a check mark in my life? No, we get to be friends. I mean, that's what's cool. That's what's cool about the internet. And that's what's cool about podcasts. And that's what's cool about the way things are going is that, you know, you're with Seth Meyers, you know, that's just this weird kind of fact. Like, you feel like you're just in a factory or something and they've got to get somebody on stage and get them off stage and keep the show going. But that, you know, that it's kind of dehumanizing in a really weird way. It feels kind of strange and glossy. But yeah, man, I think that it's these, the moments that we, you'll quickly realize that in any moment where you're getting that crack pipe hit, you have to ask yourself, what's the, what is the hit? Like, what is the, what is the, is it the moment that has within it some kind of potency that I'm milking and out of this, like, is there, is there like a quantum of energy that I'm like, suckling out of it like a bee out of a flower? And I don't think that could possibly be the case. It seems to be a very subjective thing. And more than likely in those little moments, you're getting, you're allowing yourself to experience something, which I think is, is actually the, the, once you realize that things, and everything in matter is a thing. Once you realize that things are just a, the droplets coming out of a fountain that is so potent and alive, that, that you can actually follow those things back to the fountain head. And people have a lot of names for that thing and connect to that.

And that is the idea that you can experience what is called nirvana or the notion that these crack pipe hits, you quickly realize are actually moments that your heart is opening and you're feeling what you actually are. And then those moments don't go away. They just get concealed again by your either fear or your distraction or confusion or delusion. And then they open up again in these weird little moments and they say you can open it up forever and just feel that forever. Feel that feeling of awe and beauty and holy shit. This is happening forever. That's what they say. I don't know. And, and I feel like I, I think it's, you know, and not to downgrade or speak badly about, you know, I think it's, you know, I'm very proud of everybody, you know, like that I work with and the fact that I wrote songs that people are connecting with, like that's insane to me. And I think it's a matter of like reconstituting what my, what my intentions are. Like it's amazing to play on television and the fact that all of those people can see this song that I wrote that I truly felt and, you know, and to have my parents be proud. And, you know, I, I love my parents and the fact that they were proud. It's amazing. And I think it's actually not on the television show or my parents or anyone else. It's on me to, to like re rearrange like what my goals are. Like my goals should have been like, man, my mom was probably smiling so big when that happened. Like she probably felt like here's this kid that I gave birth to. And I was so nervous that he would be in jail or like in like a boy.

Correctional home. And he did this. Like, you know, like, and the fact that like, you know, the idea of getting a guitar when you're 10 and that guitar can then lead to somehow playing shows. And, you know, like I leave on Thursday to be, I'm going to be in Europe for six weeks. And I'm like, how the hell did me picking up a guitar at 12 or whatever after hearing disarmed by smashing pumpkins and, you know, wanting to learn what an E minor chord was. Like how did that then lead me to my job is traveling across the world playing for people and getting to like experience people's lives with them and their towns and, you know, like that's, that should be the goal. Like I'm giving myself advice right now. But like that should be the goal. It should be that moment of like, you know, like I sold out that show in Seattle and but it wasn't about the sellout was about the fact of like, I opened my eyes for like a few seconds during one guitar solo and I looked and people were losing their shit. And like, not there was no cell phones up in the air, like people were just legitimately like, you know, enjoying what we all were doing and that should have been my goal. And you know, if I wish I could have realized that then to be like I could have walked off stage and like, man, I looked at that one dude in the baseball cap and he had like a legitimate smile on his face like, and he was unironically putting up the devil horns. And you know, like, it wasn't for any fucking hip shit. It was like he was actually feeling it enough, you know, on a Wednesday and whatever his day was to do that and I should have, I should have felt that and I do now but you know, I should have walked. That's the mind. Listen to what the mind's doing. Now the mind's tormenting you in a different way. It's crazy because the mind's like, Oh, if only I'd done this or that or regret. Now my God is turning from ambition to regret. Now you're worshipping. Now it's regret. And you know, that's what the mind does. And the, you know, when you get those moments of feeling great because of some success, then that comes through you and then it goes away. And then when the moments you feel regret, it comes through, then it goes away.

And the, you know, man, when I go on tour and I just did this stand up tour and every show sold out and that was one of the most insane things for me to see that that was happening. But I, it's like, I don't know if it's because I'm a bit of a coward. I just try not to think about it. I'm so dreadfully afraid of, of stumbling or something or that as much as I can, I just try to get out, get out of, get out of my own way and try to, and try to just accept it. And I said, okay, well, this is a particular formation in my life that's happening right now. And I try to just leave it there because Jesus, if you let your mind go too much, it's, you know, this is that, what's the, that movie, The Razor's Edge that is based on a quote I believe from the Dhamma Potter, it's a Buddhist quote which says, treading the spiritual path is like walking on the edge of a razor. And, you know, it really is kind of like that, where you, you just want to, this is why I look, I don't mean to keep going back to Meister Eckhart. And, you know, I know you were saying you flirted with Christianity. Yeah. And I still, I still flirt with Christianity. I flirt with all religions. Exactly. And, but I do love, it seems like the, the real quick fix, whether you want to be a chaos magician and just imagine that this is a mental construct that you're using to achieve some kind of emotional or psychological state, or whether you believe that there is in fact a

intelligent source of all creation in the universe, there is a, the idea of abandoning things and saying my reward and paycheck has nothing to do with whatever the world gives me, which as our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ said, why store up things that, that moth and mold will decay? Why store the, why are you hoarding these things? They're, they're not alive. They're, they're dead things and they're, they're, they're just things of the world. Why do that? And I think that verse is right next to the amazing verse, which is look at the lilies of the field. They know, they neither do they toil nor spin, but see how my father in heaven clothed them. How much more do you think he'll clothe you? So I love those ideas, man, it doesn't matter if there's a God or a Jesus or a, or a Buddha or whatever. But I love just playing around mentally with a thought experiment of imagining that's for whatever weird reason. I am a servant to a super intelligent consciousness. And that's my only job and the podcast and stand up and friendships and relationships and everything else is just a kind of byproduct of this connection or dance that I'm getting to do in this dimension with the thing that makes flowers and birds and tigers and music. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And I think, I mean, you just, you basically summed up what I love the most about you is that, and what I dislike the most than others is the, like you have a lack of cynicism. And I think that's such a beautiful thing that I try and do because I unfortunately when you're in like music or whatever, you have these people that cynicism is some kind of shield or it's a super, it's actually is like a super defense. It's like I have this ultimate force field to resist any emotions because I'm cynical or I'm ironic or something like that. And for me, like the fact is like, and I've taken this from listening to you, like, you know, I do find myself like I'm a guy who doesn't acknowledge religion that often, but I find myself praying sometimes.

I don't know if it's the amount of drugs that I've done that day or the beautiful hike that I've done, but I find myself reaching out and it's not Jesus. I don't know what it is, but I, I've done so many hikes from just like I, I'm connected with something right now. You know, when you, when you, when you're hiking, I always, I always gauge my hikes like in miles and like the first few miles you might have your headphones on or you might have like a, you might be talking on your phone or something. But then like, and your, your thoughts are cycling so fast over and regenerating and anxieties. But then you get like a few miles in, and then you're like, Holy shit, there's like sounds going on out in the woods. Like there's, there's a crack over there. And like you, and then you know, like what direction that crack just happened, or if there's a, if there's like a woodpecker and you then can realize like that woodpecker is like, like to my left, like a little bit above my left. And then all of that bullshit goes away. And that's where like the prayer comes in and, you know, and that's what's so much more. You know, I was going to ask you that when you're talking like, because I have to ask myself that, like, when was the last time like you felt that feeling of like achieving closer to Nirvana? Like when was like, what in your life connected those pieces to get to that place? Oh man, I get it. It's, I get it from jogging. It's weird, you know, jogging, does it? I don't know, jogging. And just like what you're saying, it's like a few miles suck. And all of a sudden all this, all the ridiculous bullshit falls away and then suddenly you're just like breathing air and feeling your body running.

And then that's when the spontaneous gratitude prayers will come out where you're just like, thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for giving me this. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And you're not thanking this source for whatever prosperity you have or what you're literally just so happy that you get to feel air on your body. Yeah. Yeah. And the fact that like we're, my God, now I'm quoting you. I'm quoting you for your old jokes, but you blew my fucking mind once because I had like a, I was listening to you and you said something about the feeling of being immortal. And this might have been before your surgery or whatever, like, you know, the idea of, of what it means to be an immortal. And, you know, like I, I had that same feeling. Like, you know, I've, I went through like this insane car crash and Christmas. Like, yeah, I read about that. You broke all your ribs. Yeah, insane to the point where I, it took me three weeks that I was denying to myself that I was alive. Like, I didn't know, like, because I got in this wreck and like two semis hit my wife and I and like, I was unconscious for a while. You know, I went to the impound lot and the impound guy was like, oh, do you know the people in this car? And I was like, well, I'm this person. And he's like, no, you're not. And I was like, what do you, what, I am that person. That's my car. And he was like, no, the police officer said both people died.

Whoa. Whoa. I was like, no, I am that person. But then I found myself arguing my own existence with this random impound lot guy from Indiana. And I, and then I just thought like, man, am I gone? Like, is this another like, is this like another fold in existence? And, you know, and I've and people say like, when you get to like, you know, a near death experience, you're supposed to have this like charge of life. But my charge is like this charge of confusion. I was like, is this even what it was before? Because I don't remember, like I had a head injury and I don't, I have, I still have problems like I have lapses of memories. And I don't like, I don't know if this is who I was before. And physically or mentally or spiritually, I, I, I, and that's part of the reason why like, I, I do, I just dove into substance abuse. After the accident, like I just was like, I would put on, I, because I didn't, I didn't know if this was me anymore. And I, you know, and the idea, like going back to you when you said about being immortal, like I truly thought up until that point, like I was fresh, you know, I was like, I could always regenerate, like whatever happens, I could break a bone or a girl could break my heart, like I'm going to be there tomorrow.

But after this, I still have that question. Like I, even on this past tour, like I had like, I must have drank too much whiskey, but like, I had this huge argument with my band and my van. And like, I was, we were driving after a show, which again, was another sold out amazing show. And I had this total breakdown of person. And I started yelling at my drummer about like something. And then like, my mind instantly went to like, I'm not here. Like I'm not even supposed to be here. Like I'm full of shit. Like I'm not supposed to be here. Like I'm gone. Yeah, it's like a dream. Exactly. It's like when you're in a dream and you start realizing you're dreaming. Yeah. And then I'm wondering if I'm dreaming right now, like if this whole experience, you know, and again, like I'm not a subtle person, like I have fucking survived tattooed down my full, my whole forearm that I got like three weeks before I got in his car accident. Wow. And I did it simply because like, I had like problems with like cutting when I was younger and like self, like whenever I get sad, like self destruction is my first instinct to like destroy myself.

And I would do it to my arm, my, my right arm. So I got this tattoo, the sensor, it sounds kind of like metal cliche, you know, I was like, Oh, this is what I did. But you're like, I wrote survive over this arm that I've just wrecked since I've been 10. Simply because like, if I get drunk, I'm not going to want to cut it because there's a really nice tattoo on my arm. Like, I don't want to like, I don't want to fuck up my tattoos. So I was like, I'm just going to like have my friend tattoo my arm. And, you know, I don't know where I'm going with this. It's just really heavy, like thinking about you. I'm trying to think who you're talking about at that point, but like the idea of being immortal. Well, yeah, I mean, what you're talking about, and especially with cutting and everything is the identification with the body and the kind of tenuous relationship we have with our bodies. If there's sometimes this sense of our transcendent nature will subconsciously come into us. And it's almost like, especially for kids, I think the, you know, the cutting and the all of these things that seem to be these rejections of the body are kind of trying to in a, in a almost in the way that like turtles, when they dig out when they catch out of their eggs and the sand and go out into the ocean, they don't know exactly what they're doing. They're just sort of going in that direction. It's this weird, I think, instinctual thing that happens when you're like a young godling in the larval phase and you're sensing this like that your body is not what you are.

And so the rudimentary way to do that in the West, you know, is because no one, you don't get that lesson generally. You don't know what he tells you. Hey, guess what? You're not your body. You're having a dream. You're the attention of the universe focused on this one meaty little vessel. And the more you let go and relax and release, the more you will find yourself expanding and dilating into your true identity. No one tells you that. You're just, so you're just like, fuck, this is me, this fucking meaty, fleshy, fucking pain tower. And then I think that's why, why some people start cutting themselves. And the, the drugs that you were doing, when you were saying you started doing drugs, you know, it reminded me of when I was after your car wreck, it reminded me when I was talking to Jack Cornfield about how I was chanting. I was telling him I was chanting Hare Krishna when I was in this failing relationship. And he is like, you were just trying to avoid pain. You were trying to avoid what was really going on there inside of you. And I think anytime you come in face to face with impermanence, that induces a specific kind of pain. And so then that whatever you can do to numb it is what you do, drugs, cutting, chanting, whatever. And, but man, this is, this actually kind of, this brings us to something I wanted to talk to you about, which is that your, your music is so real and authentic and so connected to, I think what appears to be to me, your becoming more and more courageous and allowing yourself to experience this pain, honestly. Dude, is it, is it dangerous? You know how like they say that I remember, I remember when I was a kid in high school, they were talking about butchers and how, and I never, for some reason, I never thought about it, but they're like, you know, a lot of butchers are missing fingers.

And in the same way, I think a lot of people who are making the kind of art that you're making, don't a lot of them, for example, Jason Molina, Elliot Smith, do you feel a little, not to be a complete bummer here, man, but how do you, is it a dangerous thing? Is it like working at a, is it like working at a place with radiation? Is it a dangerous thing to be channeling this energy? Well, I think, you know, and this isn't, this is not comparing my art to Elliot's or Jason's or, you know, like Jeff Buckley's or people like that. But like, I think there's certain artists who like, if you, if you do it in like a military example, like, I look at certain bands who are like rich kids who go to officers training school, and like, so they'll learn how to become officers, they'll go to college, and then they can make this, like they can make decisions from a removed standpoint, like they're, they're all the way, they don't have, they're up in the, like on the mountain tops looking down the valley, whereas like Elliot Smith and Jason Molina and like some of these other artists are in the like infantry, and they have to deal with the shit as it comes, and they're, they're like in the midst of the actual, like suffering that's going on, and they're tapped into that. And I think like, what my favorite artists have always been, you know, I'm not, I don't, I don't have a fetish for sad people, but I just have always tried to look for people that are real. You know, like, I remember when I heard Nick Drake's Pink Moon, you know, I didn't, I didn't even know the story behind Nick Drake.

I was young, and I just heard someone who tapped into whatever faucet that had turned on in my life from an early age. And, you know, it's probably all, we can all, we can blame all this from like me reading like Catcher in the Rye and just being like, oh, these people are phonies. Like this is not, this is phony, this is something that's not me. And hearing, you know, like hearing Nick Drake or hearing Elliot Smith or Jason Molina, like those are the people who are right on the front lines of like emotion. Why do you think you're not like that? Because when I listen to your music, it makes me feel the exact same way. There was no like, when I was listening to Heel, it was just this, I was stoned and I started listening and then started listening more. And it reminded me of the first time I heard Nick Drake when I, and it wasn't Pink Moon, it was the first Nick, I can't remember the first Nick Drake song, but I, I, I photographically remember my dorm room.

I remember sitting at my desk. I remember looking down and listening and then I remember like tearing up and because I had no immune system for that kind of music at that time. Yeah. Why do you think you're separate from that, from that crew? Because it feels to me that you're tuned in to that frequency in a beautiful way. I don't think I'm separate. I just have a hard time putting myself in the league of people that I respect. I, you know, I think I, you know, I might have that same feeling to people the same way that, you know, when I first heard Jason Molina, you know, however many years ago, I just, I think it's just a weird humble Indiana thing that I have, right? I have a hard time.

Yeah, I get it. Yeah, maybe you better stay the fuck out of that league because all those people are pushing up daisies right now. PS. Exactly. You know, and I think it's, you know, but it is the idea of what, like, some of the most powerful things for me on this, you know, I made the record and the record was such a solitary endeavor. You know, I don't have a band to record with. I just played most of the instruments and just stayed like, I was in literally a place where my producer and I said, like, if zombies or some kind of ghouls come into Akron, Ohio, we're totally safe. Like this is a, it was an old post office warehouse or something. So there's no windows.

So we're, we're stuck into this like, like bunker and just, you know, clouds of marijuana and whatever else was just, you know, like, fueling our passion. And, you know, like, making this record was such a quiet, contemplative, amazing place that was like, people weren't allowed into this record when I was writing it. Like, I didn't, I didn't make this a community effort. But then shifting to playing shows, it, you know, I never, I doubt that, you know, I have, I have a bad self image of myself. I don't think people, like, I'm like, why the fuck would people listen to this song? Like, there's no reason for them to listen to it. But then playing these shows, and the first thing people do, like before, like, before we even go on, even if it's a show to like a 50 people in Phoenix, there's always like one or two people that come up to me. If I'm like outside, hang outside the venue, and they, like, without any hesitation, tell me the most personal shit in their life.

Like, they, and I've never met them before. And, you know, like, they tell me something about, you know, their marriage or like their children or like their problems with like mental, you know, issues and stuff. And my only reaction is then to say exactly what I went through. And it turns into this like, you know, it's not corny, like it's real stuff. There's no cynicism there. Like, then, you know, some of these guys look like they should be like going to a limp biscuit concert, you know, and, and they're coming to my shows and like losing their mind, like the opposite of casual, the opposite of like trends or anything. And that's, I guess, you know, I need to stop doing these knee jerk reactions of like not allowing myself to be considered with my people that I look up to. Sure. Yeah, but maybe, yeah, I know what you mean.

It is a weird thing to even think about that. And maybe there's no need to think about it, man. But there is, there's a great term I just heard on these Michael Beck with audio books that I've gotten addicted to. He's so good. He's so, so very cheesy, but so good. That's the best sometimes when people are so cheesy that it's like, ah, I totally feel this right now. That's the best, man. And he talks about this thing called the tyranny of trends is what he calls it.

And it's the, it's such a great way to put it because it is tyrannical and you will, if you allow yourself to get caught up and not being sincere and cheesy and open, then you will not make an album like Heel. Then you'll make something that just maybe people will like because it's manipulative, but, but it's, it won't, it, what it won't do is it's not going to heal people who desperately, desperately need that kind of music in their lives. I mean, I, that song, JM on Heel, which is about Jason Molina, that song is you singing about the importance of having that person's music in your life. And you're doing the exact same thing for people, man. And that is such a valuable, valuable, that is that to me, that is being a servant. I think that in, in, in, I think musicians and stuff feel weird admitting that that's what you're doing, but God damn it, man. If I didn't have Nick Drake, or if I didn't have Daniel Johnston, or if I didn't have Lou Barlow, I don't know what would have happened to me. Yeah.

And that's, and that's the whole thing of like, my wife is much more eloquent than I am. And she always says that my music is meta, but I don't, I don't really know what meta means, so I can't, I can't really, I just have to believe her. But there is a certain quality to that where it's, you know, I'm writing a song about someone who was my hero. And like, I, like we just played a show in Philly where I live. And the guy who played guitar and lap steel on Jason Molina's record played with us on JM. Wow. And my wife was like, that's so Kubrick, like that's meta. Like if you're doing it like, you know,

Can I, can I read you something really quick? Because now that you know what your wife is saying, but she, here's where it gets even weirder. She doesn't even know. She's, you know, the other definition of meta, right? No. The Buddhist definition. Hello. I'm here.

I'm, I'm ready. Okay. Check this out. Metta is indeed a universal unselfish and all embracing love. Metta makes one a pure font of well-being and safety for others, just as a mother gives her own life to protect her child. So meta only gives and never wants anything in return to promote one's own interest is a private. Anyway, you get the idea. Metta, isn't that wild?

And the thing is, it's like this record probably was, it's based on such selfish motivations. Like I just wanted to release whatever tension I had built up in my life into lyrics and not build it around symbolism or metaphors or all that other shit that I've worked so much. And that was my biggest fear when I wrote some of these songs. I'm like, no. And this is, you know, I thought no one would care about what I did when I was 15 or like no one would care of the fact that like, you know, Sharon Von Etten was on my headphones and her song Give Out was on when I had my realization of being lonely or Jason Molina was on my speakers, you know, and all of this stuff was so present and so real to me that I was worried that like no one was going to relate to it. And to my surprise, like people relate to it a lot more than songs that I'd written before. And it was, you know, it is this validating point that like, you know, you talked about sincerity, like I think people are longing for that and they're longing for some kind of connection.

And that's, that's why I have this like, I believe in the beauty of the internet and connectivity and the fact that, you know, we can talk and all this stuff can happen. But there's nothing like meeting someone fresh, like there's not a screen, there's not a keyboard, like, and you just speak to them. And they tell me something that like, they probably haven't even told their spouse or their children. And we sit on some fucking curb in Pittsburgh and talk about this together. And, you know, I'm supposed to play a show, but I don't want to play a show because I want to catch whatever truth is coming back at me from this person. You know, and it's, it is just, again, it goes back to calling a record heal and, you know, the idea of like, it's still, I'm not even close to being better. But the process is happening right now. Like the process is meeting these people and, you know, like I, I'm filled with almost this responsibility now of knowing these people's stories.

And I, and I don't want to be an asshole, like I'm trying to go get a beer or smoke a cigarette or play my tune my guitar or something. But I want to like give, I want to just listen to people because they took the time to listen to my selfish words. And, you know, then they're giving it back to me. It's, it's, it's, it's overwhelming to the point where like we played our last show of a five week tour on Saturday. And usually I'm out in the crowd, like I'm talking to everybody and like I'm a gregarious person, but I couldn't like I had to go in the green room and I just couldn't speak to anybody. All I want to do is pack my gear up and have something tangible because I was like, I was so overwhelmed by them. Like those voices don't go away. The stories are still in my head.

And I didn't, I think I, I couldn't deal with them at that point. And, you know, my band thought I was pissed off, but I was like, I'm not pissed off. Like I'm just, I'm like, I'm feeling all the feelings right now and I can't escape them. Yeah, you can't. And, and they'll keep coming too. You know, it's like the idea of prayer, you know, there's so many different ways to pray. And a lot of people have been taught like when you're a kid, you get taught this weird thing where you put your hands together in this kind of like arrow pointing up like an antenna. And you say, now I lay me down to sleep.

I pray the Lord my soul to keep, it's really a weird thing. You know, as you've been saying, like when, whenever you find yourself tuning into a negative mood state, it's like you're worshiping a specific demigod. And I think that when you're producing art and music, that's the real prayer. And it's the, when you send that prayer out into the universe, it's the delightful thing about it is it's like being in an echo chamber where you yell, hello, hello, hello. And instead of just hello coming back, it's like, I love you, I love you, I love you. You know, it comes bouncing back in all these different expressions of love. And that to me is, is so beautiful to know that what you're doing when you're producing music or art or anything that is based on authenticity or heightened connection. What you're doing is throwing this metaphysical boomerang out into the world and it always comes back with stuff on it.

Little love notes from the universe. Exactly. And like, I, and it boils down to even like beyond the lyrics, which are hyper personal, like the way that I play guitar is not, it's not, it is skilled, but it's, I don't want to like dis myself. Like it's, it's not, it's not a conventional way of playing the guitar. Like, especially live, like I just kind of destroy my guitar for a reason. And when you hit notes, like when you're in a practice space, you're just hitting them like you're just playing the guitar and playing chords or whatever. But like when I do these things live, like even if I hit the wrong, wrong notes, like I see like there is like this, it's like a laser beam of like this is all this is what my fingers can do. It's as fast as they can play or as hard as they can hit the strings.

And I see that reflecting back at me. And at that point, like, I just want to like, I'm not a violent person, but I see bands and performers who are obviously doing it for themselves. And they're not, they don't give a shit about any of that reflection. Like they just are, they're, they're, they're just creating to create for themselves in this place where it's like they, you know, like they could have their backs turned to people and that doesn't matter. And, you know, for me, like I, I absolutely need people. Like I, and I, I'm kind of an introspective person naturally, but you know, being in these unbelievably extroverted places of performing, you know, it's the only reason I'm doing it is the fact that like, I know this person could be watching a fucking Netflix series or something, but they're here on a Wednesday, like in Vancouver, like, what are you doing here? Why are you here?

But then I realized, like, you know, I have to get over that forced modesty of like my Midwestern stuff, like they're here because we're going to do this together right now. And it's, you know, I, I, I just want, I want people to know that come to these shows, like I, I'm doing this because I need you and I need to do this. Like this is my survival mode right now. And it's, you know, like I leave, I leave on Thursday for a bunch of more shows, as I was saying, and like, I have to like mentally prepare myself to be like, man, now I got to figure out how people in Amsterdam react to this record. And, you know, because it's not, it's not an album of like, there's bands that I love that are like, you know, I listen to the newest Daft Punk record. I'm like, man, these are sexy songs that like, I would love to like comb my hair to or something. Like it's, it feels so nice to like, you know, just have like these songs on when I'm, you know, in a barbecue. But I don't think my record is, I think my record is, I, you know, people can still barbecue to my fucking record and comb their hair.

But it seems like people are hearing it and taking something out of it the same way that I took out of Elliot Smith or Nick Drake. Like, and that's a scary, it's a scary responsibility, but it's still exciting to be like, shit, why I have a purpose? Like I can keep making these records. Yeah. Yeah, man. You, yes, that's, and I think as long as you stay right there, just stay right in the place where it's coming out of you and forget all the other stuff. I think that's the, that's the safe place. You know, anytime I let my mind go to any of the other places, quite either I'll just start feeling like I've gone insane or I'll start feeling like, you know, I was imagining one of these show, a show that I did. And I was imagining, what if you really do this thing is a simulation and you have just plugged in this incarnation into some kind of like futuristic, super computer style video game.

Like, I want to feel what it's like to be a comedian. I want to feel it's like to have a podcast and to have real connections with people who come to the shows. And I was sitting there thinking that and realizing that that is probably what it is. Not that it's not that I'm the only thing, but that we are all connected to the one thing. And the one thing is having all these experiences at the same time and the, all these experiences or the subjective realities are as Robert Anton Wilson puts it, the reality tunnels of every human being on planet Earth. And that you, your consciousness is just a river rolling through the, the life of somebody named Tim Showalter. And maybe that river runs through Tim over and over and over and over again, just like every time somebody plays a song. The song plays again and again, but each time the river runs through your life, the river that is you or the river that is the part of the universe that's sort of separated or is focused its attention on you, it gets another chance to fully embody perfection.

You know what I mean? It's like another chance. And who knows, maybe all kinds of different consciousnesses have run through the being that is you. And maybe sometimes the car that it does crash into the semis in a way where you don't climb out, you know? But this time you climbed out. And isn't that badass? You, we all have climbed out, you know, and it's, it's super cool because here we are right now in this crest of the wave of time. And every second you're giving, you're giving a chance to not just be in the, in the company of the great ancestors that have given you your gift or have inspired you like Elliot Smith, like Sebado for me. But you have a chance to not just like be at that level, but you have a chance to goddamn quadruple it, you know? You can exponentially increase what they did because I have a feeling that, you know, whoever your heroes are, if they are gazing out from eternity watching you, what they would want more than anything is for you to not just be as good as them, but to carry forward into the future that ball of energy that they got rolling every time they released an album or sang for a show, you know? Yeah. Yeah, I think it's, I just think it's so amazing to think of how it is like the idea of what it is to be inspired by something. And, you know, it's just me continuing that, you know, I wish more artists would admit to the fact that they're fans of things. I always get, I always get mad at people when they view like their art comes out of nowhere. You know, it comes from somewhere and it comes from, you know, we all were 12 and we all heard like the first like Richard Pryor stand up thing and it changed our lives or, you know, we heard the Beatles or something.

And it's, you know, even for me, like talking with you, like I remember this specific point, like it was this rough tour and we were, where were we driving? Like we were driving from Northern California to San Francisco and we took like the Google Maps sent us on the fucking weirdest way. We were over the Redwoods and this rainy night and we were listening to like one of yours podcasts with Dan Harmon. And it was this point where we were so deep into this tour and kind of feeling numb from the lack of success and, you know, rough times. And we just like, it must have been, I felt like the podcast was like eight hours long. I don't think it was, but you know, it was like, we both lived in it and we lived in this thing and we didn't talk about it, but we just felt like we were inspired by it and it helped us, it helped us, you know, get to the next place and go to sleep and get up for the next show. And, you know, I have this ability now, like part of the goodwill of getting a little bit more successful in this world is I have the ability to like communicate with people who have inspired me, you know, and I can meet them and talk to them. And, you know, because I think it's, I wish, you know, I didn't know Jason Molina and I, and I'm now like I've, I've befriended all these people that are in his life, but, you know, I wish I could have been at this point now to speak to him when he was having rough times. And, you know, to be able to return something in that look, like I don't know who you are, but you have no idea how much you've defined me as a person and defined so many others. And, you know, I feel the same way for you. Thank you.

You know, it's, it's, it's always strange to, you know, to be at a level to speak. I guess it goes back to the uncomfortableness of feeling on the same, like being able to have communications with people here whom you respect. But it is just, you know, there's, there's people in this life where you just look for like, oh man, like, I truly believe that JD Salinger would be happy for your podcast. I think you would hear it and be like, like this, this guy, like I would come out of my New Hampshire bunker to speak to this guy because it's, it's like, it's not the drone speaking, you know, and you're waiting for that with people. Man, I appreciate that, man. And, and I, you know, I, what I think is that we are all different expressions of a technologically enhanced awakening that's happening around the planet. And that the, the, the imperative right now is as much as possible in whatever way that you have your instincts are telling you to, to go is to accelerate that, that awakening, you know, because I think that's what it is. I think that's what, that's what every single person is, is that once you really, because you can dabble with the ideas presented in Buddhism and you can dabble with the ideas presented in Christianity.

There are all the bonafide scriptures that are, and all the writings of the mystics. And, and, and at first, as you hear them, it will only go as far as your, is your whatever callous is surrounding your heart. But when, when you really give yourself just a second to imagine that when the, every single intelligent mystic, every G, every fucking mystic and every enlightened being keeps saying again and again and again, in some version of the idea that we are all one, I am, you know, and I am that the burning bush, I am that I am or the all one or the, these things keep coming. So if you pretend, if you imagine that these super smart people, when they were saying that, they weren't just stoned, trying to, trying to like seem eloquent. No, but they had actually connected to a greater universal consciousness and had realized that they were that thing just like everybody else was. If you play around with that, you will start tripping out because you'll begin to realize it's true and that you're a window and I'm a window and everyone you run into is a window. And some people, the windows shut and some people, the windows open and some people are trying to get the window open and they don't know how.

And I think the more you can be part of the universe that's like, hey, I'm going to help you open this window if I can, even though mine shuts all the fucking time on my fingers sometimes. What he stubs the fingers after. Yeah, man, I am so grateful to you for reaching out to me and I'm so excited to now have your music in my life because it's just beautiful. And I really hope you'll come on the podcast again and I'm starting to do these live podcast tours. And if there is some way by the grace of God that we could like get together and do like a show or something, a live show, I would sure love that. And I think it also is manifesting friendships and I know it sounds, I don't want to make it sound manipulative, but I heard you and I was like, I think I could connect with this guy. There's something that I feel very true about you and I've done that with certain artists that I love. I've become friends out of whatever circumstance.

I'm speaking with John Darnell from Mountain Goats and we're talking back and forth. I'm speaking with my heroes, but I think they're my heroes because they're actually a lot like me. Yeah, it's so funny, right? It's not heroes, it's just you hear something like, oh shit, I'd be friends with that person. And now we're talking and we're like, oh yeah, you're right because now we're friends and that's just how it works. And it's so cool. And I think that's one of the gifts of the internet. Most of my friends these days, I have met through this podcast, so god damn it, this is a great day. And I can't wait, where is your tour? Where are you headed? Well, we're starting our tour in somewhere, I think Amsterdam.

And then we're touring across Europe until November 1st, but then we come back for like a few shows in Philly and New York. But I know you're in Los Angeles, but we need to just make it like, I will do whatever I can to make this friendship foster. Yeah, well let's just keep talking, man, and come on the podcast soon. Definitely for those of you listening, forgive the budding bromance and forgive me for using the term bromance, it is called it. But that's just what you felt and that's what I feel right now. I feel like I truly found someone that I could love. Yeah man, well that's badass because your music is insanely good and even if we never talk again, I'm going to listen to it for a long time. And I hope that people listening will download your album, your most recent album, Heal, or all the albums for that matter, and come see you on tour if you're out there in Europe listening to this.

Thank you so much for coming on the show, Tim. It's been a real blast chatting with you. Thank you, Duncan. It's been amazing. I love you, man. I really do. Love you too. That was Timothy Showalter from Strand of Oaks. Why not download their album? It's available on iTunes. Get the new album, Heal, or any of their albums. Thanks for listening, you guys. If you like the podcast, give us a nice rating on iTunes. Don't forget to go through our Amazon portal and don't forget to let somebody go through your portal as soon as possible. We only have a limited time on this earth. We're being aerosolized by time. And if you've got a portal, people you love should actively be going in and out of it as much as possible.

I'll see you guys next week, or maybe this week. I don't know. I love you all so very much. Thank you for listening. Hare Krishna.