Dwarf Fortress Roundtable - Ep.19: In Which Alexei Returns to Talk Dog Biscuits, Soap Slides, and !FUN! Much Nonsense and Mirth

Episode Date: November 20, 2019

Note: Alexei later found that dwarven babies are born with a preferred god. Reddit Overreading ThreadRoomCarnageDF Talk Episode 8 (talks about dentistry)Kruggsmash King TrapIncompetechBay12 Games Donation Page — Please Donate To The Adams Bros!

Welcome to Dwarthor Fortress Roundtable, the podcast for all things Dwarfee. I'm Jonathan. I'm Roland. I'm Tony. And I'm Alexi. Back again. You're the first guest that we have had come back on. So I think that you officially get the title Friend of the podcast now.

Oh, delightful. Yeah, no, super psyched to be. back. As I said before, I will always talk about Door Fortress when anyone gives me the slightest excuse. Before we opened the mics, we were talking about dog biscuits and kitten biscuits. And baby powder. Gorman baby powder. And it turns very dark very quickly. Yeah, yeah, you know, this is where it gets to be a bit of a tough cell if you start talking about things that are pretty normalized in the Door Fortress community, like eating your pets

and making cat leather shoes, people start getting really weirded out quickly, like, oh, that sounds awful. But, you know, it's just you get into it and you roll with it. And suddenly the idea of a scepter encrusted with cat skulls isn't quite as disturbing of an idea as you might think. So there's that. It's when they use things like nails or eyelashes that really That still throws me for a loop Or the lower back tooth Yeah, the specificity frightens me But the good thing is you can't actually

Take someone's pet and make it into shoes for him So that's a plus Because that would be just mean Maybe we can get that as a feature request I mean you could mod it I bet I wonder could we do that though Like is there a way that you could could pull that off by having custom stockpiles.

Yeah, I think with stockpiles, you could probably do that. Or Roland, are you saying you can't actually, if something someone's pet, you can't kill it? Yeah, you can't really kill it. You have to make an elaborate trap mechanism or have an unfortunate accident to kill it. And then I wouldn't be even sure if you can tan it. because sometimes they will just bury it and that's it

right just in the way that you can't well no you can have a dwarf bone scepter so I was going to say if it's dwarves they you know you can't they're not cannibals are they or can they be that's a fell mood

you have to have a fell mood to have something made from dwarf bone and a fell mood dwarf dwarf dwarf will not go after any pets so I've never had a fell mood

and the whole time I've played this game in some years what am I doing wrong I want a fell mood damn it I think you're just too friendly to your dwarfs yeah I mean

a dwarf has to snap in order to get a fell mood and then it has to be a dwarf that is even open to the possibility of having a fell moot because not every dwarf will snap in that direction. So the best thing about getting a fell moot is just letting it spiral for a while

and then seeing who's like the worst of the bunch. There was a description back a few years ago on Twirl Fortress talk where Tony described what it took to get a dwarf into a fell mood. And it is a combination of first he has to be a dwarf that is was chosen by the dice rolls for making an artifact and then he also has to be I believe like at a particular percent of unhappiness so if you're working really hard to keep your dwarfs happy then then you're probably not going to have a very good chance of getting a fell

mood because it's got to be a miserable dwarf who also happens to get chosen to create an artifact if I remember correctly yeah that's interesting I forgot that that was even a thing But now that I think back when I first started playing Dwar Fortress, I think I got Fell Mood and some of the other different variations of moods, which was also back when I was much worse at keeping my dwarves happy. I've had a fell mood, and it was early on, and I didn't appreciate how rare it could be. Of course, like Alexi, my dwarves were pretty much all miserable at that point.

I think that was the fortress that I ended up letting ghosts just hang around for a while. Eventually, it just turned into a total cesspool of madness. I had only one, and I tried my best to get one. I was not really into getting a fell mood, but yeah, I found a dwarf I didn't like, and then I just walled him off maybe and used him for my silk farm, and he kind of turned that. anyway he then and that way

I found out that they will not kill visitors which is very interesting really well you can have them kill visitors can't you

I think you can target a visitor game with the military yeah with the military but the fellow mood dwarf just ignored the dancers and the dancers were like

super super psyched out about that and just ran away He ignored them completely and went into a bedroom and snapped someone's neck. And yeah, it's pretty gruesome. So why is it when we're talking about these nasty things? I keep getting Al Pacino movies in my head. You talk about having an unfortunate accident knocking off a pet,

and I think of, you know, Hitman and the Godfather. You talk about the Dwarfell mood, avoiding the dancers. I think of like the club scene in Scarface. Maybe that's the secret. inspiration behind War Fortress. It is interesting the way you get used to things on the words that we use. We talk a lot about fun. It starts to carry a different meaning.

And it's weird stuff will still be surprising. Like I mentioned before you started recording, I've been reading Room Carnage this morning after listening to the Halloween episode. And I'm pretty used to a lot of dwarf-y stuff, but I didn't actually know they do in the beginning a thing where they're dropping animals down a pit. And I didn't know you could assign a dwarf to just do. drop an animal down a pit.

And so I found that quite shocking, just because it was a particular cruelty of Dwar Fortress that I was not familiar with, even though really there's no reason to think that's any worse than all the kitten biscuits and such like. You can do it to elves too. You can do it to literally everything because I'm a big fan of toilets. That sounds wrong, but good thing. This is the Dwar Fortress podcast. Please listen back to episode number five of us.

about the Dwarven toilets. Yeah, about that. Yeah, about that and why I'm not a psychopath that likes to cuddle toilets. So you might want to go ahead and explain that just a little bit there. What's a Dwarven toilet? A Dwarven toilet is basically just a deep, deep, deep pit that you dig because you are a bit of a masochist and started in a evil biome, and everything will resurrect. after a while and you don't want zombies in your fort

so you make a dump pit where you just chuck everything in that might come back to haunt you later in a quite literal sense and also if you have some unwanted animals you don't want to slaughter them because well then you just have like living hair or living cat leather

or something you just chucked the entire an animal in there. And after a while, the bottom of the pit will crawl with undead, and things will sort themselves out.

And if you're extra fancy, you can also install a waterfall that flushes everything off the map. That's why it's a toilet. I believe that a Krug smash actually, and I still think that this was inspired by you, Roland,

where the whole point of the fort was to create a water flushing system to take out sieges. Oh, you mean king trap? Was that the one? I'm pretty sure because I loved it. Also, big buzzer for Cruxmash in the podcast, meet, me, me, that's okay. I'm sorry, who? That's not fair. He must not be named.

The poor guy, yeah, okay. I wonder if you could use like walls made out of soap and like floodgate kind of situations to create a filtration and have a renewable dwarf in toilet so that you still are able to drink the water that's been filtered

out of the situation Oof, why would you want that? Like, hmm, this was water tastes weird. Oh yes, we suck the dead cats in it. Oh, why do you do this? Why do anything in Dwar Fortress? to see if you can. You know, two years into play in this game,

and I still have never employed a soap maker. Oh, seriously? Yeah. You need soap. You need soap. You got to get soap. Yeah. And it's like one of those things that's relatively complicated.

Yes. But once you figure it out, it's really easy. And if you do it, then you feel like you're some sort of like a badass playing the game. You're like, yeah, that's right. I got a soap industry going. That's right. Uh-huh. Also, you can.

imagine that your dwarfs actually stops stinking. That's pretty neat. Making soap moats at the entrance to my fort so that anyone who comes in has to slide down the soap moat into the water and clamor up the other side. Squeaky clean is still

one of my favorite things I've done in a fort. Does it foam? I mean, can I do? Because if you had a ramp, could you put like soap at the top and make it like slippery into spikes. I think that might be taking it too far.

This was a rare pleasant thing into our fortress. No spikes. It just deals with the vomit. You go outside, you vomit. You slide back into the fort. I have to imagine like a moat filled with

just foam. Like trying foam. And somebody, the elves come to the dwarfs after a full year. And before that, there wasn't. mode and no phone and they're like

fucking dwarves, just turn it around and go. I think we're going to have to beep something there. Maybe. You know, I think an F-bomb got through and I don't think Apple sent men in black to kill me. The ghost of Steve Jobs. Steve Jobs'

Turtleneck came back and attacked you. There's no ghost of Steve Jobs. I'm sure you've been to the Apple Place, so there are lots and lots of slabs everywhere. Oh, yeah, that's right. He's well memorialized. Yeah, thoroughly put to rest.

But if it's a purple biome, I think even then. Then his turtleneck really could come after you. Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Oh, my God. I'm just saying that Silicon Valley is an evil biome. Steved jobs. Right rear tooth attacks. All right, we should probably edit all that out.

No, I. No. It's awesome. Saying that Apple headquarters is literally a necromancer tower. It's awesome. I think it's a necromancer oval. Oh, boy. I don't know if you guys saw this, but several weeks ago,

somebody talked about they had been building a scholar for it, and the dwarves in the fort became such voracious readers that they were reading the books faster than the librarian could res shelve them and that upset the librarians and then chaos ensued and I was I was taken by that story I enjoyed it I did see that that was great the idea that your fortress could die because you have too many people reading too many books is just that's a so tour fortress I feel like it's kind of like the real life from having talked to librarians that I know it's the struggle is real we also have to bring up that talking about too many books

is actually he had about 200 bookshelts fully stocked like that guy had some serious book business going on and his poor poor librarians had like severe

big pain after that So, whenever you're seeding your civilization out to the area, you know, Hamlets, can you take books with you and leave books at other, at other, you know, goblin holes and elf trees and stuff like that to spread your, your fortress's word? No, that you can send, you can exile people, right, or exile dwarves, or you can send dwarves out to, So whenever you're sending a dwarf out on a mission, is one of the options to send them out on a mission to have them move to a new place?

I don't actually know. You can send people away, but I don't know if you can get them to, maybe you can give them stuff and then send them away. I'm not sure. But I know you can kick them out of the fort. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, kicking people out of the fort is just people kicking out of the fort. If you take over a settlement and if they have books, then the books will also stay. But I don't think you can, yeah. Weren't you, one of your worlds recently, you were actually spreading the dwarven civilization and trying to actually eradicate all other civilizations and replace them with your dwarves, right? Indeed. So to do that, whenever you actually actually. took over another

Hamlet, another city, Fort or whatever, what was that process like? Well, most of the time, I just eradicated life in that particular town, and it sounds horrible, but it worked. So I would ascend

a squat there. I found out that sending just one squat per town or hamlet works, for some reason, way smoother than ascending several. I don't know why. My experience. And after that, I would either ignore the now empty ghost town or I would send some people I didn't really like.

I would make a new squad and send them there to, is it conquer? I think it is conquer side. And then they would stay there. And they would no longer be citizens of my fort and instead be more. of a new group of settlers. Okay, okay. So if you can figure out a way to get your home-written books

to take with them whenever they go to conquer a site, maybe you could spread books. The idea is that I'm thinking of recording the names of the books or naming the books whenever you create them and sending them out. And later, during later fortresses in the world,

see how much of that ends up coming back to you and see how much of that you can pillage from other civilizations and see, you know, if your books have spread. That seems really fun. It is, it sounds like the complication is that to spread your books, you need to conquer the other towns, in which case, there's not so many people around to read said books. So I guess you have to hope that your settlement later gets reconquered by some other group that then takes the books and continues to distribute them.

But I have a, I have had a similar case, not with, books in particular, but in some fort I made an artifact spear made of bare bones or something. And later on, I found exactly the same spare in some goblin civilization that I raided and they brought back my spear to a completely different settlement that I played almost a year after in real life. And that was really amazing because I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, I know that spear. And in fact, yes, I put up what's it called Legend Viewer and I like served a bit through it and I saw, well, yes, that spare actually traveled from an old settlement of mind to a golden civilization, then was used there to like poke a few guys and then came back to me in a different settlement. So that was really cool.

Do you mean stuff like that? Yes. I mean, that's amazing. Yeah, that's pretty much exactly what I'm talking about. And while you were talking, I thought that is there any way to make something more attractive for a thief? You can have a thief steal your book. You can, yeah. Yeah, you know.

I think gold is supposed to get them all excited. I thought it's just general value. Or is it specifically gold. My first thought was just a bunch of McDonald's. cacks coming in and taking all your books and running off into the jungle with them. They're just going to get moldy. Yeah. Or you could make your fortress's version of like a Gutenberg Bible, and you can

encrust these books with gold and gems to make them really viable, and then have them be attractive for thieves. Oh, okay. What about this? You let one dwarf write a book, and as soon as he's done writing the book, you assign several scribes and no scholars. So they start just copying this book over and over and over and over again. Then you have literally a massive amount of the same book

and you start piling them up outside. And if a cobalt comes running, they are too far away from your entrance and the cobalt could just take it in it. I like it. And you put up a sign that says, please don't take these books. Reverse psychology works very well on cobalts.

And once you have piles and piles and piles of these books outside the entrance to your fortress, or maybe like in an entryway where they're just ready to be taken, you retire the fortress. That's good idea. idea. And then let the world disseminate them. I like the idea now of doing that, of getting one dwarf to write one book early on in your fortress and copying it, but also using that to dictate the rest of that fortress's whole

ideology. If he writes about cheese, this is a fortress about cheese now. That is what has been decreed. We now live by this book. I like it, yeah. Like the codex and startis. Yeah, I really love it, yeah. So I know that things do get propagated around because the one time I decided to cheat when I was playing and I used D.F. Hack to spawn some adamantine axes thinking that that would get me out of my predicament, which it did. And then just the whole rest of the time that I had that world going,

those stupid adamantine cheat axes kept showing up in different people. And I was like, oh, it was kind of like a reminder that you're a scumbag. Yeah, karmic. Yeah, exactly. And I eventually just had to kill the world because I felt like such a dirty, dirty, dirty teeter. So I think they do find ways. Life finds a way. But wouldn't it be really cool if you have like an Edmontine weapon of some sort,

especially if it's completely useless, like Edmontine Warhammer. And suddenly some, I don't know, plum helmet man merchant dude shows up in your for a day and it's like ah I'm here to drink and he has like this at Mantine hammer that is clearly yours and that's awesome yeah

makes for a good story is Dwarven Dentistry a thing yet they can definitely lose teeth but we don't have the ability to give them new gold teeth yet do we oh that would be so awesome so awesome request Mr. Adams

let's please do this Mr. Adams Again, really, if the listeners haven't listened to the entire Dwar Fortress talk series, they really should talk about that. Because they went in length about dwarven dentistry and whether or not the dwarves can brush their teeth. I think that the consensus was at that time that was just getting a little too micromanagey. It might be. Yeah. We can have tears on the eyes, but brushing your teeth is too far. Do they even need teeth to eat?

Oh, that's a good question. They need teeth to bite... Yeah, they love biting. To bite forgotten beasts, that's what I'm trying to say. Mm, kinky. But if you don't really need teeth to eat... Wait a second. If I give my dwarf like at Mantine teeth and sharpen them...

Oh. Hmm. I'm telling you, Jaws from the Spy Who Love Me. I'm just thinking of how nasty the tantrum spirals would get. now where not only do you have dwarves punching each other in the face, but they bite each other with their sharp and datamontine teeth. And then that dwarf comes a vampire and, you know, all pets are off. Oh, gee. Oh.

Okay. Turning to development. The Halloween episode didn't have any development notes in it, but the day before it was actually relevant, released. There was a dev notes update. And I think that a couple episodes ago we were talking about looking for the word release in the dev notes. And he actually used the word release in the October 30th deadf notes. So maybe we're getting close. Yeah, you linked it and it was the first word I saw and I laughed. And I was in another Discord call while doing that. And my friend was like, Why are you laughing?

And I went, he said release. And my friend was like, huh? Who? So I think he is now trying to fix it up to like get a release going, a real release. At least that's what I'm hoping for because I want this. Yeah, I really want the temple and worshiping updates. He mentions in the last note. That sounds really exciting to me.

Well, I think that if we're getting close to the word release and the note, it's a great sign. And I think we should all celebrate. Oh, interestingly enough, I did notice that he discusses the cult of cats in the dev notes, which I think is appropriate given some of the conversation that we had before. Perhaps that's what it was front of mind for us all. No, it was front of mind for me because I was breaking up a cat fight while you guys were talking. Right.

Well, you know how to get rid of those, don't you? The holidays are just around the corner. Hey, this is a lovely, lovely leather bag you've made for me, Jonathan. Where did the leather come from? It's fluffy. The Thanksgiving biscuits are delicious. I was very disappointed here that you can't make slippers out of pets because I have a couple of long-haired cats that would make the most wonderful slippers. I think you're misusing the word can't and you're actually thinking shouldn't.

No, what? You absolutely can. My cat ginger has really given me a dirty look right now. So they know. So, yeah, what I thought was cool about that is the idea that whenever you have 10 or so dwarves who are of the same religion, worshiping the same God, petitioned for a priest for that particular religion. And I think that sounds really cool to have an official temple that was petitioned by some of your dwarven worshippers in your fortress. Yeah, I thought that was just the coolest thing. And it was making me think about, you know, different ways of playing Dwar Fortress.

Because I think one of my favorite things about running a fort is when the dwarves have their own kind of desires and agency in that way, where they have requests and opinions about things. So I have gotten really into, like, the scholarly forts and stuff like that. I just love when the dwarves can kind of form their own little guilds. And I've seen mention, too, in the release notes of crafting guilds, and I think that that's really cool. I'm really looking forward to these new, like, social relationships between dwarves and then kind of giving you more concrete demands as a fortrunner of like, we demand a temple of the cats. To me, that's just a fun story engine thing that now I get to decide what I think a temple of the cat should look like and see them all start worshipping cats and stop making kitten biscuits or make more kitten biscuits. I don't really know where they would align. but yeah that's exactly the stuff that I want to see more of in dwarf fortress personally

yeah I would be really interested in how this cult mechanic actually goes and how far it goes is it just some people worship the god and they want a temple or do they just create a new god in your fortress and if you get them their temple and you build stuff for them, is that temple, the first temple of that particular

god and your cult dwarfs are the only dwarfs in the world worshipping that particular god and then over time you can actually see this cold may be spreading out of your fort or just spreading

through your fort at first and then spreading out into the world and your temple was the first to be built in dedication to best god and that would be amazing if you have actually a fort of cultist dwarfs that would be and then if you retire it

what happens and how does that impact the rest of the world because you could do some neat stuff with that I think conceptually you could basically just set up all these cults and then kick back let it go. I think a really cool thing that I would like to see, and maybe this is already possible is build, like, do your

world, build a couple forts, and then advance time, 250 years or 300 years or whatever. Like, I don't know if, maybe you can do that, but I would, I think that would be really neat, just to kind of set some things in motion and then jump back in and see what happens. I get the

idea from reading it that it's a situation where whenever your dwarves petition for a priest and for a to make your temple area an official I'm air quoting temple it will start off maybe as a shrine and then it will it will gain in levels of important to where it might become a temple and it seemed to me kind of like whenever your fortress becomes you know it gets a baron and then eventually it ends up getting a it ends up getting becoming the capital of your civilization It seems like an interesting, too, of more different routes to go down in terms of the themeing of your entire fort so you can have a fort that's not becoming the new mountain home, but it's becoming the new high temple of, you know, the god of dancing and puppies or whatever's been generated randomly.

And I like how that can combine with, you know, the scholarly forts and the taverns. And I love all of that new stuff where you can kind of pick a flavor of like, okay, this fort is going to be the most bang-in party spot fortress ever. And I'm going to build the most popular tavern and fill it with all these different alcohols. Or maybe you're going to become a monastic sect. A big question for me is also, I deny my people's wish for their new temple or just a tiny, room where they can worship their god. If I deny

it, do they still do it somehow, somewhere or do they switch religion under? Do they do missionaries? That would be an interesting thing where they try to convert people. Yeah, well, I wonder even within one

fortress of like if you have two groups that both set up shrines, are they going to start trying to convert the rest of the fort? Like when a new Dwarman baby is born, who gets to indoctrinate them first into which cult? Like, do they end up where their parents are? Uh, is it, is it kind of random? I haven't even ever noticed, like, when a Dwarpen baby is born, at what point do they pick a God and which God is it? Like,

I sometimes notice, like, it is interesting that what God they worship is part of the information for dwarves, but I've never had any reason to do anything with it. So I haven't noticed if families tend to follow the same God. Now I'm really, curious when babies decide who to worship. Yeah, exactly. And imagine if you can kind of outlaw a cult and it sprawls in the deep darkness of your under fort and people pray and secret pathways and stuff like that. It's amazing.

It's amazing for roleplay. I love it. I kind of like the option best, even though it wouldn't make as much sense narratively. just love the idea that their baby still gets like a random god just because I can imagine these dwarven parents who both like worship, you know, some wholesome god of industry and mining. And as soon as the baby's old enough to talk, it's like, no, I worship the god of revelry and baboon people. It's like, where did you hear about this? Child? Probably one of the library books.

He's going to invent an internet simulation. for the dwarves. I'm not going to bother. I just had a child born in my Halloween fortress, and I was going to take a look at it and see whether it's got a, that could be our cliffhanger, whether or not babies are born worshipping a particular God. Yeah.

That's not a very good cliffhanger. I mean, I'm fascinated. I'm definitely going to be checking as soon as the podcast is done. So we're going to take a short break after this release and come back at the beginning of the new year. I keep saying that. That's the second time that I've said that, and I just can't figure out a good way to go into that. Roland, tell everybody that we're going to take a break. Okay, guys, we, uh, uh, okay, do you remember a minute.

Perfect. That's it. We got it. Tell everybody that the podcast is going to take a couple months break. Oh, is it? I should say it. I'm a guest.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Hey, everyone. You're a friend of the podcast. I'm a friend of the podcast. Uh-oh. Oh, no.

Terrible news. What happened there? Uh, uh, a vortex. We just. We'll play lots of jump in the interim. Um, we just got jumped in.

We just got jumped into an alternate reality. I think it's really cool that you have a lot of different people come visit. Hey, Alexie. She's on a CD radio. Oh, my God. What's happening? Oh, no, we're dying. All right, I think I've fixed it.

Oh, cool. Okay. Did your phone fall down a rabbit hole? No, my headset got unplugged. So I think it must have just switched over to the laptops built-in audio, which is not so good. And we didn't hear a word of what you said. Yeah. Well, it was really good.

Yeah, yeah, I gave you, I gave you your perfect holiday hiatus message, so, you know, too bad. So inspiring. My God. I'm a little tearing up. So that was my go at announcing your hiatus. I think Tony is your turn. Who are even worse than I was. We'll just play all of them over top of each other.

It's going to be like a barbershop quartet is what we're going to have to do it because there were four of us so we could pull that off. Oh yeah, we can sing it, guys. Like, we will be off. I think we should just tell everybody that because November and December tend to be really busy months,

we won't be releasing episodes as regularly as we normally do, but after the dawn of 2020, we will be back on a more normal schedule. For an exciting new season. Door Fortresson table. That's right. In all seriousness, guys,

it has been so much fun this last nine, ten months, and we've gotten so much more interest than I could have ever hoped. And I so thank you, Alexi, and all of the guests that we've had on the podcast, because they have made it just

really, really fun. I've learned so much about this game. Now it's time to go make some cat leather bags. Yes. And we will return in January. Not sure exactly what part of the month, but we'll be back in January and we'll continue this and have another wonderful year of Dwarf Fortress plan. Maybe, just maybe, we'll have a new release to play with. That'd be cool. Now you're being grossly optimistic again.

Well, you've just ruined it. Okay, I might cut that. 2021. Anyway, thanks so much, Alexi. How do people find you if they want to talk to you and Twitter at you and stuff like that? Sure, yeah. You can find me on Twitter at AM Peppers. And yeah, tweet me about Dwarf Fortress.

I keep wanting now to try and get more active on wherever Dwarfortress people live because listening to this podcast makes me really want to do more seeing what other people are up to. So maybe I'll try and actually like make a Reddit account or something like that. so I can take part in more things, Dwarfie. That's awesome to hear because I don't want to repel people from the game. Okay. Okay, guys. Thanks for joining us, Alexi.

Thanks for being here with me, Tony and Roland, and thanks for listening in to the podcast. And we'll see you in January. Yeah, see you guys later. Have a good thing. Until then, bye-bye. Bye-bye. This has been Dwarf Fortress Roundtable, the podcast for all things Dwarfee.

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