Dynamic Dialogue with Danny Matranga - 119: Metabolic Flexibility, Keto For Women + More with Rachel Gregory MSc.

Episode Date: August 23, 2021

In this episode, Danny and Rachel Gregory sit down and discuss various topics including:metabolic flexibilityketo/ketogenic dietsketo diets for womentraining stressoptimizing recoveryCheck out Rachel's Podcast HERE! Check out Rachel's Website HERE!--- Thanks For Listening!---RESOURCES/COACHING:  I am all about education and that is not limited to this podcast! Feel free to grab a FREE guide (Nutrition, Training, Macros, Etc!) HERE! Interested in Working With Coach Danny and His One-On-One Coaching Team? Click HERE!Want Coach Danny to Fix Your S*** (training, nutrition, lifestyle, etc) fill the form HERE for a chance to have your current approach reviewed live on the show. Want To Have YOUR Question Answered On an Upcoming Episode of DYNAMIC DIALOGUE? You Can Submit It HERE!Want to Support The Podcast AND Get in Better Shape? Grab a Program HERE!----SOCIAL LINKS:Sign up for the trainer mentorship HEREFollow Coach Danny on INSTAGRAMFollow Coach Danny on TwitterFollow Coach Danny on FacebookGet More In-Depth Articles Written By Yours’ Truly HERE!Support the Show.

All right, everybody, welcome in to another episode of the Dynamic Dialogue podcast. As always, I am your host, Danny Matrenga. And today I am joined by my friend, Rachel Gregory of the Metflex and Chill podcast. Side note, for all of you who are listening now, go down to the show notes, click into the link next to Rachel's name, subscribe to her podcast because her and I have an episode coming up on there. So if you like this, you'll definitely want to hear what we talked about on her podcast. But Rachel is a nutrition expert. She has a master's degree in nutrition and exercise physiology from James Madison and somebody who I really trust in the field to talk about different topics like metabolic

flexibility and the ketogenic diet. So we to talk about different topics like metabolic flexibility, the ketogenic diet. So we'll talk about that stuff today. But Rachel, I'll cut myself off here so they can hear from you. Tell our guests a little bit about what got you into the industry and what you're working on now. Sure. Thanks for having me. I'm excited to be here. So just a quick background or I'll try to keep it quick. So I grew up playing sports my whole life. So I've always been into the fitness side of things. Grew up in a very kind of athletic household. And nutrition was kind of something that I guess I didn't really pay attention too much to until I got later on in high school and really started to get into things. And when I got into college, I actually went and got my undergrad at the University of Miami in

athletic training. And that's what I thought I wanted to do for my career. I thought I wanted to be an athletic trainer and then soon realized that that wasn't the route I wanted to continue to go on. As I was halfway through my undergrad, I started really getting into the nutrition side of things, getting into more of the strength, strength and conditioning side of things. And that's kind of what propelled me to go on and get my master's in nutrition, exercise physiology from JMU, like you mentioned. And that is where I kind of discovered CrossFit and the ketogenic diet, both pretty much at the same time. Keto wasn't a huge thing back then. It was back in like 2014.

So it was kind of just becoming, I guess you could say, popular. We know, you know, with nutrition, things ebb and flow throughout the different years and things like that. So at that point, it wasn't where it's at, I guess now, or at least a few years ago. And so I ended up doing the first human clinical trial looking at implementing a non... Sorry, implementing a ketogenic diet in non-elite CrossFit athletes. And that was my master's thesis. It was a two year kind of process. And that study got published after I graduated. And that's what kind of propelled me down the keto low carb rabbit hole is like is what I like to call it. Lots of experimenting on myself working with lots of clients, experimenting with them,

and just a few years of making different, I guess you could say, mistakes and then learning from them as we all do and finding what tends to work for the majority of people and what tends to not work. And then just moving from there and transitioning myself from actually a strict keto low-carb lifestyle to more of a... Like I call it a metabolic flexibility type lifestyle where I'm still incorporating certain aspects of lower carb, but also definitely using carbs in certain scenarios and with my clients and things like that.

And then also transitioned out of the CrossFit style training more into back to like kind of bodybuilding style training and really just learning as much as I can about the training side of things as well. And yeah, I guess that kind of brings me to where I'm at now. Perfect. No, I think that's wonderful. And I actually really liked the journey there because not only do you have the intellectual background, right? Much more so than myself with a very robust formal education, but you have learned in the trenches by trying different things, the evolution of your own training career from CrossFit into something like bodybuilding, and then transitioning from a ketogenic diet, which we'll talk about here in a second, to something that's a more maybe leaning into

that metabolic flexibility and using carbohydrates strategically. And so for those who are completely uninitiated, the term metabolic flexibility is probably something they haven't heard before. They haven't heard of fleshed out. I know most of my listeners are familiar with keto, so we'll talk about that. But could you, in your own words, kind of define what it is that you're talking about when you say metabolic flexibility? Yeah, absolutely. So metabolic flexibility, and I refer to it as Metflex, it's just simply the ability to, I like to say, respond or adapt to the conditional changes that are happening like in metabolic demand.

So that sounds kind of complex, but in basic terms, it really just means that your body has the ability to kind of efficiently switch back and forth between its two primary fuel sources, between its two primary fuel sources, which would be on one side would be fat in the form of fatty acids and also ketones, if you're able to get into that ketogenic state. And then on the other side would be carbs in the form of, you know, glucose. So metabolic flexibility is really just your ability to kind of, and I say, kind of be able to use the full spectrum of your metabolism for periods of time when it's warranted, right? So, oh, sorry. Did you want to ask another question? I think that's wonderful because I think that a lot of people are familiar with the body's ability to use different substrates. They know that we can use carbohydrate as a fuel source.

They know that we can become adapted to things like, you know, fatty acid or, you acid or ketones even. But for those of us who are just generally eating, is metabolic flexibility something that you develop over time or are we all metabolically flexible by nature? Yeah. So it's funny because a lot of people don't know this, but you're actually born and live pretty much the first few months or even more of your life in a state of ketosis for most babies because you're basically either eating your mom's breast milk, which is very high fat. Or if you're having, you know, if you're based off a formula, typically formulas are, and if it's a good quality formula, typically higher fat as well. So we're actually born in a state of ketosis. And what a lot of people don't realize as well is that we actually, and research actually estimates that like 90% plus of our genetics and our DNA hasn't really changed like over

the last 10,000 years. Right. Yeah. But our lifestyles have dramatically changed. Right. So we totally transitioned from being hunter gatherers, you know, even in the last hundred years to farming and, you know, factory and just in, you know, just having food available all the time versus even, you know, 50 years, 50 plus years ago, we were kind of metabolically flexible by necessity because we had to be right.

Like there were periods we had food, we didn't. Um, and so in terms of getting to a state of metabolic flexibility, I think it all just depends on kind of what, what side of the spectrum you're personally on, um, and how far away from kind of that balance you are, because we know there's a lot of people who can be on one side of the spectrum where they are very carb heavy, right? They've, they've been very high carb for a while. Maybe they have, maybe they're a little bit overweight, have some, um, a little bit more insulin resistance. Um, they don't handle carbs very well. Maybe they're sedentary, not very active. And then we have the other side of the spectrum, which are people who are leaner and they're active and they can handle a lot more carbs.

And there's also that side where I like to talk about this too, because it's kind of this kind of new phenomenon, I guess you could say in the last few years with keto becoming so popular is that there's actually some people who are going so extreme in the keto kind of fasting realm that they're actually becoming metabolically inflexible on that side. And so they can't handle carbs. They can't process them and use them efficiently anymore because they've been a quote unquote keto for too long, really. So yeah. Tons of good stuff to unpack there. You hit on something that I think very few people

acknowledge when we just talk about nutrition in general, which is as a species, the human being is people estimate around 200,000 years old. And you said within the last 10,000 years, we've seen very little change to our genetic code with regards to nutrition. But in the last 50 years, we've seen a massive change in our food availability. So I oftentimes communicate to people, we have 200,000 years of time on this planet, and the last 50 have heavily disrupted what was a pretty fixed approach to nutrition or a relatively consistent approach to nutrition to one where we have extreme availability of

processed foods. And it's really disrupted things quite a bit. And I just love to hear that highlighted because we very, very rarely talk about those things, but I think it's a really important thing to discuss when we just talk about nutrition in general. But a follow-up question there with regards to sensitivity to things like carbohydrates, because you'd mentioned some people are very resistant or they struggle with carbs. Would you kind of unpack that a little bit for those who might be listening? Go, how would I know if I'm somebody who handles carbs well or somebody who maybe doesn't? Yeah.

So I think there's a few different ways you can kind of go. And I like to go through a few different metrics that you can kind of like, I guess, test your metabolic flexibility. Yeah, that's great. Yeah. So like some things... So we can start with like the objective metrics. So monitoring your blood... Oh, wow. Sorry. My voice just cracked there. Monitoring like your blood sugar levels, right? So if you are someone who likes to geek out on that stuff, you can check in your fasting blood sugar levels and seeing where you're at there. Also seeing kind of how you respond after meals. You know, if you're taking postprandial, you know,

consume a meal, you know, how does your blood sugar respond to that? Like how long does it take to come back down to baseline? So those are just kind of like some things in terms of blood sugar dysregulation. So if we have that, that is one sign that we aren't very metabolically to baseline. Um, so those are just kind of like some things in terms of blood sugar, uh, dysregulation. So if we have that, that is one sign that we aren't very metabolically flexible and it can be on both sides of the spectrum. It can be, you know, um, if you are, like I said, super inflexible on the side of you can't handle carbs, or if you're super inflexible on the side, um, sorry, super inflexible on the side that you've been super keto for a long time and you can't handle carbs in that realm versus if you are, um, insulin resistant and, um, you are just so used to handling, so used to consuming carbs that your blood sugar is just kind of all

over the place in that sense. Um, so that can be like, Oh, sorry. I think that's great. Cause I, I'm for one had never considered that your sensitivity to carbohydrate. I think of it more that, you know, to the second point you made, which is your insulin resistant because you eat so many carbs that when you have a bunch of carbs, you don't secrete enough insulin to metabolize them properly. But I had never even considered that somebody who had become keto adapted might be a struggle with carbohydrate metabolism due to metabolic rigidity. So that's really interesting. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. And it

kind of just comes back. Like if you want to really think about it, just practically like, you know, within your body and this comes with everything, right. With our metabolism, with what we're doing, uh, you know, like we just talked about throughout our, our, throughout the years, like your body is going to adapt to what's happening. Right. So you're going to adapt to, if you just completely cut carbs out, it's going to adapt to that, but it might go, you know, too far. And if you're, yeah. So that's just kind of something to think about, but really like metabolic flexibility would be, you know, when it comes to blood sugar stabilization, be like not having those huge drops and spikes in your blood glucose, um, you know, post meal, right. It's really relatively stable. You're kind of not on that, uh, blood sugar rollercoaster.

Um, so that's like an objective metric. Another one would be actually, you could actually test your ketone levels. If getting into ketosis is your goal on that kind of other side of things. Um, you know, there are like benefits and people benefit from being in a state of ketosis at certain points, um, for different, um, different things, whether it's, you know, mental clarity, um, again, maybe monitoring that blood sugar response on the other side of things. If you are maybe someone who is very insulin resistant, um, maybe you're pre prediabetic, overweight, you know, all of that. So you can test your ketone levels, whether it's through blood, urine, breath, and things like that. And those would be more objective. And that's really for those people who like to really nerd out on that, or if they have a specific

like medical reason that they need to do that. But I kind of like to look at a little bit more practically from the subjective side of things. So like, just kind of thinking about like, as you go throughout the day, like when you wake up in the morning, you know, can you like, do you have to eat right away? Like, are you like someone who it's every single day that you wake up and you're just starving and you just need to eat something. And I'm not saying that, you know, that's not normal some days, like some days I wake up and I'm ravenous. But if it's an everyday thing where you have to wake up and like, you can't go, like your body just doesn't, it's not able to basically go through a period of fasting at all, then that's kind of a sign that, okay, maybe something's going

on here. I think those are really good things to outline. Oh, definitely. And I think it provides a nice physiological platform, right? Like people who are listening are like, okay, I kind of understand some of the nuances of blood sugar, the different fuels that we use, the kind of ideal outcome of being able to jump back and forth between the two. And so for those who are listening who get the idea now of what it is that we're talking about when we say metabolic flexibility and maybe our ability to use carbohydrate, keto being on the kind of other end of the spectrum where we're looking to use fat and somebody who's experienced with it, we can unpack it, what you like and don't like about

it for performance, what maybe you like and don't like about it with your clients. But just for everybody listening, what's happening when we go into ketosis? How do people go about shifting into ketosis? And then maybe within that, how it went from what it was in 2014 to what it is now? Yeah, sure. So keto or ketosis is just basically, it's a metabolic state. So a lot of people and this is something I like to clarify, too, because some people hear keto and they're like, oh, that's just a fad diet. But I like to preface that with it's actually it is a form of a diet. Right. And there's so many different forms of keto, but it is a metabolic state. So it's basically just the metabolic state of burning fat and ketones for fuel, uh, in the majority. Um, and I like to say that that, because it really isn't a fad because it's literally like your body going into this kind of, or using, like I said, using the full spectrum of your metabolism and being able to tap into fatty acids and ketones as a fuel source. tap into fatty acids and ketones as a fuel source. Um, so basically, you know, to get into a ketogenic state, again, this is very, uh, there's not like one way, like it depends on where the

person's at with their overall metabolic health, um, and things like that. Um, and there's a lot of different, a lot of different rabbit holes we can go down there, but it's basically just lowering your carb intake to a place where your body is able to kind of tap into its fat to use for energy to basically create ketones. Because your blood sugar is lowering, your insulin levels are lowering. So you're able to, your fat cells are able to release kind of, you know, the stored fatty acids that can, uh, go throughout, uh, go to your liver and converted to ketones for energy. Um, and that is kind of just the basis of like what ketosis is. Um, yeah. And the one thing I want to just mention here really quickly is because a lot of people, um, like if you've kind of just new to keto or like you are Googling

something and you see like, Oh, I have to consume a super high fat diet, super low protein and low carb. That is something where I'd say, okay, just hold on for a second because a super high fat keto diet is what we call a standard keto diet. is actually for someone who is maybe suffering from like a disease state like epilepsy or Alzheimer's where they have to have their ketones super, super high. For your average person, for 90% plus of the people out there, they do not have to reduce protein too low. The basis is just lowering their carbs. And I would advocate for actually a more higher protein ketogenic approach for most people. I love that. And it's funny because I was introduced to the ketogenic diet, not, I want to say for the first time, like early 2010s, because my dad has Parkinson's disease. And so when I first started to get my interest piqued in nutrition, I was looking for anything I could find out there that might be beneficial for somebody with a neurological condition.

And so I am guilty at times of throwing keto into this fad bucket because as far as weight loss diets go, it's certainly very popular. And I would say that there's some fatty interpretations of ketosis and the way that it's sold to people who want to lose weight by maybe the, let's call them the less integrous among us. It has kind of bastardized something that has quite a few applications for people with neurological issues. And so I always like to touch on that. And I'm glad that you brought that up because I was first introduced to keto, not as a weight loss diet, but just as something I was too young to really understand even what it was mechanistically that was going on. But I remember

being like, okay, these higher fat diets are beneficial for things like Parkinson's, Alzheimer's, epilepsy, or they might be beneficial for those. So for those of you who are listening, who think of the keto diet as just another way to lose weight, it's certainly more than that. Wouldn't you say? Oh yeah, absolutely. And I, yeah, I think there's a lot of misinformation and out there about it. And I think, like you said, there's just, there's, you know, with, like we said, with the nutrition things, Evan flow, and then there's, you know, I'm sure you've talked about exogenous ketones before and kind of that whole craze and like every now every every company and supplement companies seen, oh, this is a way to kind of make some money. So

people are, you know, ignorant in the sense that they don't understand what the actual diet came from and what it's about. And so there's just so much taking advantage of people really in that sense, which is just... And it's very common in the health and fitness industry in general. But for those who don't know, and in the health and fitness industry in general. But for those who don't know, exogenous ketones, do they work at all or do they only work if you're in ketosis? These are supplemental ketones, correct? Yeah, exactly. So it's basically taking a supplement, whether it's in an ester or salt form.

And so you'll see mostly the salt form of exogenous ketones. And I would say that, you know, the, my biggest, uh, kind of beef with this is that there, they are marketed like, Hey, take this ketone supplement on top of whatever diet you're following and you'll lose blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, amount of weight and all this stuff. And, you know, I think that ketones in a bottle, just take them and get clean. I've seen them marketed as such, but I asked the question because I just, part of me knows there has to be an application for these, for people who are doing it right.

Yeah. So there are definitely some benefits of exogenous ketones, especially when you get like a quality brand, or even if you can you know, can get your hands on some of the ester forms of them, which actually are not very common because they just taste like absolute crap. But there are some, some uses of it, especially within athletic populations as well, in terms of just an extra energy source in that sense. And then obviously in the medical community as well, if we are looking to increase ketones for some, some ailment, whether it's, you know, Parkinson's or Alzheimer's disease, there's a lot more research coming out on that. But again, it's definitely like probably, you know, going to your average GNC and seeing a ketone supplement, like there's probably a minimal

effect there. You really have to do your research and find just ketone supplement, there's probably a minimal effect there. You really have to do your research and find just like any supplement, right? Yeah, no. And thank you for clarifying there. So sticking with keto for a second, because you're somebody who has quite a bit of experience with performance. How did you perform on keto? And would you recommend keto for somebody who has goals like you do now? Yeah. So that's a great question. So when you say performance though, you mean like performance physical, like in the gym, right? Let's say like non-endurance performance. Cause I have seen a lot of people who have made the claim that a ketogenic diet might be optimal for an athlete who's operating exclusively in the

oxidative system, right? Maybe an ultra marathoner. And so I'm going to go out on a limb here and assume most of my listeners are not ultra marathoners. So let's say like a ketogenic diet for somebody whose goals are body composition related, and maybe they want to look quote unquote toned or muscular. Yeah. So that's a great question. And I think that when it comes to that, it all definitely goes back to, first of all, the individual and where they're coming from and what works for them to adhere to the best. And I know you probably agree with this, like adherence is the number one thing, right? Yes. So I think that's the first thing. We do know that there are, you know, some beneficial side effects to, you know, going into a state of ketosis when it comes to appetite regulation for

some people, not all like some people, and this is where it comes back to the individuality side of things, right? So some people notice that they are less food focused. They have more stable energy throughout the day in general. They have a little bit of an appetite suppressant if they are following a, you know, a lower carb keto diet. But that's kind of just like overall looking at that versus someone else could feel the complete opposite. And so I think it just all comes down to first of all, like where you're coming from, um, how, I guess what side of the spectrum you're on and, and what, um, like if, for example, a female who is maybe, um, a little bit more overweight, a little bit more potentially insulin resistant, um, maybe they are trying, maybe they are like lifting weights, but they're

still not like super, super active. They're kind active. Maybe they lift a few days a week, but they're sedentary the rest of their week. Maybe a lower carb keto approach can be beneficial for them versus another female who is training six days a week, who's already on the leaner side, already super stressed out. Maybe it's not the best approach there. And I think the stress side of things is a big, big component. Like your overall stress load for your life is a huge, huge factor in what you can personally tolerate when it comes to, you know, adhering to whatever diet protocol actually that you're trying to follow too. Hey guys, just wanted to take a quick second to say thanks so much for listening to the

podcast. And if you're finding value, it would mean the world to me if you would share it on your social media. Simply screenshot whatever platform you're listening to and share the episode to your Instagram story or share it to Facebook. But be sure to tag me so I can say thanks and we can chat it up about what you liked and how I can continue to improve. Thanks so much for supporting the podcast and enjoy the rest of the episode. That actually opens up two questions for me. The first is, let's finish this one because I think you just hit on it. Are there benefits

to dietary carbohydrates for populations, particularly women who are stressed? Oh yeah. I believe, I believe absolutely. And one of the biggest reasons is because we know that, um, stress in itself, right? We have, uh, everybody kind of knows our, our main stress hormone, not the only one, but cortisol, right. Is our main stress hormone. We have, that's definitely the one people are the most familiar with. I think when they hear stress, they think, uh, I think that's cortisol, right? Yeah. Yeah. And so like, it's normal to have, you know, periods of higher cortisol. Like you want, you want to have it up at certain points, you know, when you're exercising, when you wake up in the morning, things like that. The issue is

that nowadays, like most of us, not most of us, but a lot of women are kind of just chronically high cortisol. And that can just lead to a whole host of other issues as well. And so having carbohydrates as kind of the, using that strategically to help with that cortisol balance and help with that parasympathetic state can be beneficial because we know that insulin and cortisol kind of have this opposing relationship. So when you consume carbohydrates, we know that you obviously spike insulin, not the only way to spike insulin, but definitely one of the primary ways, um, uh, you kind of actually have an opposite effect with cortisol. It tends to, to lower that. And so especially post training. So post-workout having, we know that, you know, during our training session, we're kind of in a higher cortisol state. And so for someone who's struggling with bringing that down, um, we want to use carbs to our advantage there. Um, and also, you know, using carbs

strategically, like pre post-training, then also at night, like if you are someone who has a hard time winding down at night, we know that carbs can help with increasing serotonin levels, increasing tryptophan, which does increase that serotonin level to help with putting you more in that rest and digest, relax, parasympathetic mode. And then also just, yeah, there's just so many, there's just beautiful rabbit holes. So hopefully that makes sense. It makes a ton of sense. And I think for those listening, understanding, there's just so many, there's a few different rabbit holes. So it makes a ton of sense. And I think for those listening, you know, understanding that there are benefits beyond just the macros of getting that post-workout meal in with some carbs, right. That's actually going to

help you recover. It's going to minimize cortisol running rampant. And if you're somebody who's super stressed and your cortisol is chronically high, having carbohydrates in your diet might be beneficial, which is going back to that second question with regards to populations who might struggle with insulin sensitivity. Is there application, and if you don't know the answer to this, you don't have to answer. I don't know the answer to this, but I pontificate about it often. Low carbohydrate and ketogenic approaches for women who have PCOS. Yeah. Wait, sorry. What's the question? Are there applications for low carbohydrate and ketogenic diets for women with PCOS?

Because that's something that often will coincide with very much insulin resistance. No, yeah, absolutely. And I think that goes back to the side of thinking about where that individual is coming from. If they are more in that insulin resistance state, if they are having issues with blood regulation and insulin resistance, we know that that is a big, uh, kind of proponent of what can lead to peace, not lead to PCOS, but be a component of PCOS is insulin resistance. So, um, I think that carbohydrate, uh, low carbohydrate and ketogenic diets can definitely have an application in, um, in that population. And I think we have a good amount of research

that has come out and that is still continuing to come out, uh, with benefits in that regard. research that has come out and that is still continuing to come out with benefits in that regard. But I also think it is still very individualized. I think, yeah, taking the individual approach and again, just going back to like, okay, where is this person specifically coming from and looking at all the other different lifestyle factors that they're undergoing and really formulating a dietary approach that's going to work with them versus trying to fit them into a specific box. I love that. And we talk about this kind of stuff all the time on my show, probably on your show with all the guests I've had, which is it depends or it's individualized is so cliche with coaches, but it's really true. Whatever you're doing, you have to look at

what your lifestyle constraints are, what your goals are, what your current status is, and make sure that you're taking all those things into account before you just try a diet like the ketogenic diet. Not because there's anything wrong with it, but because there's so much misinformation and there's so many fitness marketers who will run with things that if you want to do it right, you have to look at it in the context of your specific situation. So maybe speaking a little bit more generally, for those who are interested in optimizing their body composition, what are some things that you like to do with your clients with regards to nutrition? Yeah. So I think one of the things too, just to mention, for example,

going on a ketogenic diet or trying out a ketogenic diet, if you've never... If you've always been in that more higher carb approach and you're looking to switch things up or you want to try something out, you're never going to know until you personally try it. So I think there's things that you have to make sure that you're optimizing as you go into it. And that's really like with keto and with that approach, you want to make sure that you are educated before you go into it and making sure that you are, you know, understand what to focus on.

So things like a lot of the major, I guess, common mistakes you could say, you could say for a lot of people who, you know, approach or go on a ketogenic diet is there. First of all, their protein, they lower their protein a lot. Like we just talked about and they, they go for that super high fat approach, which I mean, honestly, it's just not necessary. Like we said, for most people, um, also just not paying attention to electrolyte intake and sodium intake in general. There's a lot of little things that if you just don't think about, you don't implement, that you could be doing yourself a huge disservice. And if when we fix and tweak those little things, it actually can make a huge difference. So that's just something to preface. And then I don't even remember what your original question was. No, no, it's totally fair. These things happen to me all the time, but my memory is as short term as it gets. But with non, you know, getting away from keto, we've kind of covered that a

little bit, covered metabolic flexibility a little bit. And I think we have a really good foundation to talk about other things in nutrition that we can do, or even in lifestyle that we can do to optimize performance, body composition. If you've keyed in on whether or not keto is a good approach for you or not, what else would you do? And what do you do with your clients to optimize body composition and performance? Yeah, absolutely. So I think that the biggest thing, um, and this is kind of, uh, with women specifically, there's a lot of, you know, mistakes that I've made in the past and that I see, you know, a lot of clients making. And so we, you know, when, when the goal is to change your body composition, um, a lot of women are kind of stuck in this restrictive, you know, mindsets when it comes to especially, you know, food consumption and

calorie consumption in general. So I think that's one of the biggest things is like, if we're actually trying to change our body composition and we want to look, I think you mentioned this like toned, like we have to have some, some muscle tissue there, right? Like we have to build muscle and muscle does not just appear out of nowhere. You have to like literally, you know, work for it. And it takes years to build a significant on muscle. And for females specifically, one of the biggest mistakes is just that I see is just not eating enough to support that muscle growth and that recovery that you need. Not getting enough protein, not getting enough calories in general.

that you need, not getting enough protein, not getting enough calories in general, kind of just, again, stuck in that dieting mentality and never allowing yourself to get out of that to make progress. So that would be probably like one of the biggest things is just like educating my clients and women on the benefits of eating a little bit more and getting out of that diet mentality. And then also another thing with that is actually just the recovery side of things. So a lot of women that I work with are where I used to be, which is super type A personality, want to do everything, work out six times a week, not sleep, fast for 24 hours, all of this extreme stuff. not sleep fast for 24 hours, like all of this extreme stuff. And that stuff, like going to the extremes and thinking more is better is just a recipe for disaster. So actually like, you know,

working out too much, like I said, thinking more is better and not recovering. There's a huge difference between, you know, I say this all the time. There's a huge difference between hard work and being overworked, right? Hard work is you. Hard work is you feel good. You feel motivated by what you're doing. You're fulfilled. You enjoy what you're doing versus being overworked would be you're just overwhelmed. You're burnt out. You're exhausted. And that is just a recipe for disaster. Yeah. I think in my experience as a coach, that's not uncommon for women to end up in a situation like that because they want to train hard. They have these body composition goals. They feel the social pressures for better or for worse. And you pair that with the fact that many of them are busy

professionals. Many of them are mothers. Many of them are students. Many of them are all three. And you end up with a population that's really overworked. So I think that hearing you highlight that as somebody who has, you know, not only do you have the education backing it up, but you also have a great physique and you're very active. I think that that's very helpful to circle the wagons on that. So thanks for sharing that for sure. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And then something to kind of just piggyback off that is that, you know, your ability to actually recover and build muscle, um, that happens when you're recovering, right? It's not happening when you're in the gym, breaking down your muscles, you, you actually

build your muscle when you're sleeping and when you're recovering. And it isn't just about like, okay, I'm going to implement rest days, right. For my training. It also has to do with like, what's going on in the rest of your life. Like what is your work situation, your relationships, your sleep quality, all of these lifestyle factors. And if you are someone who is a busier person, you live a more stressful life, you have 5 kids, and you work a long job, long hours every single day, you're probably the person who actually needs to prioritize recovery more than someone else who has more of a laid back, I guess you could say, lifestyle.

Totally. Do you have any specifics or tips that you recommend for increasing or improving recovery? Yeah. So I mean, it's like the least sexiest things on the planet, but making sure that you're sleeping well, right? Making sure you're optimizing that, um, making sure you're like, we talked about your, your, you know, fueling yourself for what your goal is, like matching your, your nutrition to your training, making sure you're getting enough, you know, fuel, um, you know, having actual like downtime for yourself, like putting yourself first in certain situations. And especially like with women who are, you know, you know, raising a family and they have, they kind of have their kids and, and, you know, significant other, and they're always putting them first, you know, taking a

step back and saying, okay, like maybe I need to spend some time each day to actually be selfish and, and, and like use my time for me for a little bit, because then I can bring my best self to everybody else if I can do that first. Um, yeah, which is so hard for, for busy professionals like myself and yourself. Uh, and, and it is, you know, it's something that we often miss and we just go, go, go, go, go. And we don't realize how burnt out we are, but you're highlighting something that's really important. And I say it all the time, you only make the progress or the gains that you can recover from, right? So your training can be really hard. But if the other stressors in your life are requiring additional recovery and you're not addressing it, you're only doing enough by saying, oh, well, I'm drinking a protein shake after I work out and I'm taking my rest days, for a lot of people, those things

aren't enough and you have to get the good sleep. You have to reduce the stress on the schedule. All of that stuff is huge. Yeah, absolutely. Couldn't agree more. And so kind of going back a little bit to the initial conversation about metabolic flexibility, the initial conversation about metabolic flexibility. For those of us who want to optimize our metabolic flexibility, but maybe we don't want to be keto or cyclical keto, maybe we don't want to test our blood sugars. Are there some habits, some behaviors that we can implement into our everyday lives to reap the benefits of being metabolically flexible? Are there things we can do maybe with our lifestyle and with our approach to food? Yeah, absolutely. So I would say the biggest things is just, like I said, this brings us

back to testing your metabolic flexibilities. When you wake up in the morning, can you fast a little bit? And the fasting you, and, and the fasting conversation is, is one that we could probably do a whole podcast on, but, you know, maybe not going to the extremes, but just kind of, you know, testing your body's ability to be able to fast and kind of working your way up to, um, a moderate fast. So being able to, you know, go to sleep at eight o'clock or not go to sleep at eight o'clock, stop eating at eight o'clock at night, and then wake up and maybe not eat till the next morning at eight o'clock. Um, that is a fast, right? And so maybe pushing that off a little bit more and seeing how you feel.

And I'm not saying to go to extremes here. Um, just, just to kind of test that and that is one way to really just, uh, prime your body to start to, um, to stores for fuel. I'm not saying that. People get confused on it too, because they're like, oh, if I go keto, I can use my fat for fuel and I'm going to burn all this body fat. And you can, but you also cannot be consuming. We still have calorie balance here. It's not magic. I think you're articulating it well. I don't think anybody's going to misconstrue it as like, okay, so what you're saying is go to bed at eight and

don't eat and I'll be shredded. No, I think what you're saying, or just to try to articulate it my own way, is that you're going to be able to assess, engage your level of metabolic flexibility by not eating long enough to see how your body's response is. And if it's able to tap into the fuel stores, it has effectively the way it kind of evolved to do. So it's not just in the name of losing fat. So looking at something like how long you could fast, for example. Yeah, absolutely. And then thinking about like the, the other side of things like training, for example, um, metabolic flexibility is not just, uh, not just nutrition. It's not just carbs versus fats, but it's also, um, you know, the, the different energy systems

that you're training in. So if you are not, you know, if you are someone who's lifting weights, but you're never ever training, uh, in your aerobic system, in the sense but you're never ever training in your aerobic system in the sense of you're never doing any type of like cardio, whether it's like just walking outside, like, you know, getting steps in, getting into that aerobic low intensity state. So with that being said, you know, metabolic flexibility can also be increased by just working in different energy systems, right? So working in your anaerobic system, working in your aerobic system, incorporating those different things into your training at certain times, when it makes sense for you, and not saying to go again to the extremes of doing HIIT workouts four to six days a week. We don't need to do that. Just a little bit here and there can really go a long way. So yeah.

No, I love that. And I think that it's a good way to look at it. And it fleshes out the conversation that if you're adjusting the substrates you eat, you can achieve it to some capacity. But if you're also becoming better at using these substrates to fuel exercise, right, by doing like glycolytic work, like weights or aerobic work, like running or low intensity cardio, you'll kind of, for lack of a better word, be training your body to be more metabolically flexible. Exactly. And yeah. And then also just one more quick note here is just kind of, you know, varying your macronutrient distribution as well. So maybe you have, you know, some days where it's lower carb, maybe a higher fat, maybe protein's not really changing that much. You know, like I said, I like to always kind of have that higher, moderate, higher protein approach. Um, I think most people, uh, can just benefit from protein because there's so many different things that it does. Right. So maybe you play around with, uh, your carbon fat intake on different days or different times

throughout the day. So like, for example, I like to allocate, um, the majority of my carbs, like pre and post workout, and then a little bit at night. Um, and then kind of the rest of the day is more so, you know, protein and healthy fats and things like that. Um, so just kind of, you know, macronutrient variability, I would say is probably, you know, the key to becoming as metabolic flexibility is just like being able to do that and test things out for yourself. Um, and in that regard.

No, I love that. And you can do that very simply by keeping protein and fat the same and maybe adjusting your carbohydrate based on whether you're training that day or not training that day. It can be very simple, right? Exactly. Cool. Yep. All right. Well, Rachel, thanks a ton for coming on and working through these questions with me, giving the audience the kind of chance to understand the concept of metabolic flexibility, the ketogenic diet, what it is, and more importantly, maybe what it isn't. I feel like we touched on a lot of really awesome things. Where can everybody find you if they want to digest more of your stuff?

Yeah, sure. Thanks for the opportunity. And yeah, so I actually have my own podcast, which you mentioned in the beginning. It's called Metflex and Chill. So that's on YouTube and all podcast platforms. And then my website is metflexlife.com where I have all of my programs on there. I do have a Keto for Women program, which is really a program geared towards women who have gone down that kind of keto rabbit hole and they're not really sure where to go from here. Maybe they have some carb phobia going on and things like that. And they want to learn how to

bring more of a balanced approach and work more towards that metabolic flexibility side of things. So I have that. And then I have a muscle science for women program, which is geared more towards teaching women the benefits of lifting weights and eating more and all that fun stuff. And yeah, Instagram is where I'm most active on social media. My handle is at rachelgarry.cns. Awesome. Well, guys, all of this stuff will be linked in the show notes below, including Rachel's podcast. Her and I recorded an episode. By the time you listen to this, it may not be live yet, but do subscribe so you can catch a follow-up conversation with her and I on her platform as well. I'm sure you will enjoy that.

Rachel, thanks so much for coming on. Thank you so much for having me. I had a blast.