Dynamic Dialogue with Danny Matranga - 249: Stephen Keane - Creating Good Fitness Content

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

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day to promote my health. If you want to cover all your bases with a high quality protein, creatine post-workout or the ancillary micronutrient health stuff like greens, powders, and multivitamin, I encourage you to go over to legionathletics.com and check out using the promo code Danny. That'll save you 20% on your first order and you'll rack up points that you can use the same way as cash every time you use the code and you'll also be supporting the show. Hey, everybody, welcome in to another episode of the Dynamic Dialogue podcast. Today, I have the great pleasure of sitting down with my friend, Stephen Keen of Craft Coaching. Steve is an awesome content creator whose Instagram has

absolutely exploded over the last several months because he does a phenomenal job of blending humor and real world experience into his fitness content. Steve is an actual coach, a real coach, not just somebody who creates fitness content. He is an actual coach, a real coach, not just somebody who creates fitness content. He's somebody who's worked with people just like myself. And these are some of my favorite conversations to have. So whether you're a trainer or you're a coach, or even if you're just looking to get in shape, listening to two coaches, talk shop, talk nutrition, talk training, talk recovery, talk coaching tactics can be so, so beneficial. So I really hope you sit back, relax, and enjoy this conversation I had with Steve as much as I did.

Steve is the man. I really enjoy his content and I encourage you to follow him and enjoy the episode today. Sit back and relax. Steve, how's it going, man? I'm good. Thank you, Danny. I'll tell you what, actually, Danny, this feels like the weirdest thing ever because I have followed you for so long on Instagram. And I'll be like, oh, this is like really cool fitness content creator. I'm like, wish one day I can be like him. Now I'm on your podcast. Crazy. It's a good feeling, man. And I followed you for quite some time too. It's somewhat serendipitous because the timing of this coincided with your meteoric rise on Instagram,

which I think is fantastic. I think there was probably a time in my career as a trainer where I might've been a little bit less than enthusiastic and perhaps envious or jealous because the currency of likes and the currency of follows. But I remember specifically over the course of the last two years, regularly seeing you comment on my things, you share my things, you leave helpful comments. And I followed you back and I saw your content and I said, this is somebody who really gets it. Eventually, the algorithmic gods will reward that and it's happened. So congratulations first on the attention that you're generating. And I think it's all coming from creating content that really resonates with people who aren't perhaps at peak physical condition, but they're looking to get there, which I think is kind of something that it just makes for a really nice segue here as we start, which is what got you into fitness? Obviously, a lot of your content right now is very broad, very wide reaching. It's resonating with tons of people from Jeff

Nippard, who's obviously an expert, somebody like myself, who's an expert to Joe Schmo. What got you into this? And then maybe what got you to transition specifically to making such general content that just is resonating so well? Do you know what as well? Nothing will make your butt tighter than Jeff Nippard following you. You're like, oh my God, my post is so bad. Oh crap. So bad. All right. So the general backstory is I've always had a life in fitness. So I used to play football, like soccer to you guys, to like a reasonable standard. Never really loved it, but just did it because I was like pretty good at it. Then I fell into the gym. Then I fell into, I think most people's standard progression, or at least guys' standard progression, definitely more females now as well, which is almost going into the

bodybuilding route of things and then producing content for the bodybuilding route of things. And it's always the same transition, isn't it? It's very similar to mine. I mean, and I think that's part of why we've clicked on social media, despite being in different countries and having entirely different you know avenues for communicating you find one avenue that you're on that's similar we're both on instagram and i'm like gosh is this the like bearded equivalent height slightly are you british are you scottish are you irish are you Are you... British. British and just ginger. Unfortunately, ginger. But apart from that, I'm British.

Auburn. We discussed this Auburn. You got to stick to the talking points, man. It's all about the message. Auburn breeze. Auburn. Yes, right. Like a paint color. You need a very flattering... It's bronzed Auburn.

But I was like, gosh, you know, this person's communication style is so similar to mine that I had to make the assumption that your journey into this was similar to mine. And mine was identical. It's like basketball and football, the collision-based football, which then turned into might as well start lifting for this, which then turned into might as well just get as jacked as possible, which then turned into might as well just make content around getting as jacked as possible. And maybe you went through this, which is only to then realize nobody cares whether or not you know how to get jacked unless you're really fucking jacked. And so it's like, okay, well, I am actually good at

communicating these principles to people who care that I'm moderately fit. And all of a sudden, transitioning my content creation and curation towards focusing more on the people who I think really need the help, which is something that I think you've done fantastically well. Go ahead. Well, I think it's one of the main things we try and teach clients is less dichotomous thinking, isn't it? So we try and teach them to be less black and white and more living in the gray. But you're also very bad at knowing when you're being black and white with your thinking and i did the same thing with fitness content i went i have to be delivering like bodybuilder in fitness content realized that i was getting a lot of bodybuilder ish clients didn't really love the

whole contest prep that kind of thing like it just worked for me i didn't really see i didn't really love the whole contest prep, that kind of thing. It just worked for me. I didn't really see... I didn't get any reward from it. I didn't see the point of it that much. So then I went, well, the only other avenue is just purely fat loss and that kind of teaching you a better relationship with food, which is an absolutely wonderful route to go down. But then that didn't really suit me either. So I was stuck in this middle ground. And then now I've kind of ricocheted back to being like, well, hold up a second. You can still do the whole muscle growth, get into great shape, appreciate the fact that you enjoy being a little bit leaner, you enjoy growing muscle, but not have to go into the pure bodybuilding lifestyle.

Yeah. And I think the more you work with people in the general population, the more you learn that a lot of the principles that bodybuilders use to develop muscle and to get lean are highly beneficial if you tailor them in such a way towards everybody. Everybody, not everybody, but the large majority of people in the Western world could cultivate a little more muscle and stand to lose some body fat. And those are the people for whom small amounts of change make a huge difference. And as a coach and a trainer, I find that to be as if not more rewarding than anybody I've ever gotten on stage. I've had a few people who've gotten like natural Federation Pro cards, and that is pretty special.

But having somebody say, dude, this is the first time I've been able to get up and down off the toilet without my knees hurting. Those kinds of things are huge. And I have noticed that fitness content creators who are able to tap into that do extremely well. And it's usually because they've actually trained clients in person. well. And it's usually because they've actually trained clients in person. And I'm guessing that you have a robust experience working with clients in person. Is that true? Yeah. So I've been saying that I've been a PT for a decade for, I think, over a year now. So

maybe it's like 11 years, somewhere around that. So all of that time has been training clients in person and then the last i'm terrible with days like dates but like maybe the last three to four years has then been like transitioning over to more online as well sure and it's cool it's it's a i think you find it very hard to train people online properly unless you understand the amount of things that people go through, get a little bit off, don't fully understand, and that you figure out when you're talking to people in person. Even simple things like the breakdown of people's understanding of what they have to do with nutrition. You can have a conversation in the gym and all of a sudden, you're like, oh, hold up a second. You don't understand something. And you can fix that

really quickly. Whereas if you go straight online, you might deliver information and be like, oh, hold up a second. You don't understand something. And you can fix that really quickly. Whereas if you go straight online, you might deliver information and be like, they've definitely got it. They're never going to say anything to you. And it's harder for you to, unless you've got some really good processes in place, which usually don't get built out unless there's a necessity. And if you don't know it's there, you're not going to have done it. It's very hard to get that information. So yeah, I think it's a good, it's a very, very good idea to do some in-person first. It is. And I do tend to find that the people who make content that really hits, meaning they get lots of views, they get lots of shares, whatever their account size may be, are people who have enough either current interpersonal discussion with people looking

to get in shape, or they have a robust past where they've discussed it with people that when somebody reads their posts or sees their shit, they go, oh my God, that's so me. And a lot of times there's a struggle as a content creator not to create content with the goal of impressing your peers, et cetera. And so you've done this for 11 years. I've done this over here for 10 years. So there's a lot of experience that comes from that. And I went through, I think, a part of my career where I was almost ashamed of the fact that I didn't have an audience online large enough that I still trained in person. Even though I enjoyed it, I felt as though there was something less cool about training in person. Have you ever felt that? Or did you ever feel less than because you had spent so much time in the trenches?

Yeah, I think so. I mean, up until... So what Danny was saying about meteoric rise, it's been crazy because it's been the last three to four weeks has gone from 4,500 followers. I think it was 4,500, maybe 5,500 followers, somewhere around there to 275,000. It sounds a lot better when you say over a quarter million. You should try it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm going to start.

I'm going to start for that one. That's my new phrase. lot better when you say over a quarter million you should try yeah yeah yeah i'm gonna start i'm gonna start for that one that's my new phrase um but the the the things that come along with that to be honest with you is just a hell of a lot like even sitting on this tonight with you i'm nervous i'm nervous because you get that whole sense of imposter syndrome i called my girlfriend before this and i went i'm i'm about to sit on a podcast with people and i know who you've had on this podcast before and i'm like i fucking trained at the gym down the road. What the fuck am I doing on this podcast? Yeah. It's funny that your mind would create space for thoughts like that because I've had a lot of big fitness names on the podcast, sure. But what I enjoy about talking

to you, and this is something that we've DMed for a considerable amount of time over the years, we've exchanged comments, exchanged jokes. You project being a, as we call them over here, a real one. There's no doubt in my mind there never has been that this guy knows his shit, this guy gets it, he's actually worked with people. The only reason that there's any imposter syndrome whatsoever is because of the amount of followers that might be attached to your account. It's fascinating to me because I talk to people all the time who have a ton of followers that can't communicate topics as succinctly as you do in a one-minute video. And it's because I think we just do such a better job of putting other people

on a pedestal because they've achieved something. And then maybe you can speak to this because you've had that meteoric rise. What changes? This is what we were talking about before as well, because there seems like there's a large population of the industry that obviously the big content creators almost serve people that are already well into fitness they're already like fully into it they understand a lot of stuff and stuff like that and i have to fight

this myself so when i make videos i don't refer to muscle growth as hypertrophy because you're like no one's going to know what hypertrophy is so you try and keep it as like simple as possible and i'm reading mass articles to then break it back down. And I heard this really cool thing the other day when I was talking, I think it was Eric Helson that was talking about it. And they were saying that there's a question of whether that even makes me evidence-based. And I was like, I get it because I'm not interpreting research. And for the longest time, I thought it's really important if I make that kind of content, I have to be the person that's reading research papers, trying to understand it. I've never been trained to.

I doubt I'm smart enough to. It'd take a long time to research it. And I don't think I have the desire in me to do that. But I do like reading from the source. So mass to me is great because it's 3 to 4 top names in the industry, top people breaking down research and explaining it to you in a way that makes sense. But that doesn't necessarily make you evidence-based. That just means that I'm getting evidence from really good people to break down further. And I think that's the position that I've come to now in the industry is like, I'm actually okay with that. Before I was like, no, I have to be that person that's breaking down the research and understand it. And before I was like, no, I have to be that person that's like breaking down the research and understand it.

And now I'm like, no, actually there's a whole population of people that live below that line that need to be served. So if I can come along, understand this and understand the information they're giving me, and then break it down one step further to like people that are like a little bit below there and maybe even a lot below there.

And they're like, Oh shit. That's what you mean by like doing sets in the gym. Or that's what you mean by how much weekly volume I should do or training frequency and stuff like that. How much it matters and how much it doesn't. I think that's a pretty cool role to fill. I think it's a fantastic role to fill. And just to hopefully squash any remnants of imposter syndrome you might have, hopefully squash any remnants of imposter syndrome you might have. Like those are the voices that I want to amplify with my platform because you know, fitness gets a little circle jerky and there's so many high level conversations that go on between people who have been in this space for

10 plus years. And we could absolutely sit around and record a podcast about the mechanisms that drive optimal muscle hypertrophy. And that podcast has been done before. But there aren't a lot of people who are comfortable saying, I'm cool with being the intermediate from getting this information that is kind of existing in this universe for the most advanced people and disseminating it to the people who are either underserved or they need this even more. I remember very vividly when this clicked for me that this population even existed. It was like four or five years ago, I got contracted to do some YouTube videos for a

bigger fitness brand. And I was working with the person who was running kind of their backend media side of things. And every single video, he'd be like, okay, that was great. Make it a lot simpler. And I was like, no, I don't want to make it simpler because... Are these your form videos on YouTube? Your form videos? I see them come up sometimes. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So there's, I have, and this is something that you learn as you, I have exercise tutorial videos that are not mine. They are owned by someone else that have like millions of views, cumulative millions of views. And I remember when we were scripting these out, talking specifically with the guy who was kind of in charge of the backend and he was like, simplify, simplify, simplify. And I remember saying, I'm really nervous to simplify because I don't want to come across

as not being smart. I want to position myself with the top thought leaders in my industry. So like the bigger, the word I use, the more complex sentence structure I use, the more evidence that I researched, by the way, can you throw these 10 studies in the video? I was like, no, no, no. We don't want you to be that guy. You don't need to be that guy. And I don't know, maybe you went through the same thing. You maybe feel like you need to be that guy because there's something in every personal

trainer, every male personal trainer. There's a little bit of that competitiveness, that need, that needing to position oneself at a certain place that maybe comes from insecurity. And it's through overcoming that and knowing like, yeah, I, I do know my shit. I don't really need to prove it on social media. And I see this population that's really receptive to me communicating effectively. Did you have a similar transition where you kind of just had a moment where you're like, fuck it, I don't need to sound like the smartest guy? I don't even think it was that long ago.

And I wonder how much of it is built on the fact that I think for a lot of people that are heavily invested into fitness, a lot of their self-worth as a person gets built up around them and their physique and what they can achieve because a lot of their self-worth as a person gets built up around them and their physique and what they can achieve because a lot of people that get into fitness fully have usually always been good at fitness to some degree and then they pick up like bodybuilding or something like that and they grow muscle quite well and then their self-worth is attached to that a lot so I wonder how it transitions then to them being like well I've got a proof that i'm smart as well and you almost go like above and beyond where you need to be and i did the same thing for ages i'd be saying things

like i'll be talking about resistance profiles strength profiles and and like um and it's just things that like i'll be talking to my clients about acting and myosin filaments and and they'd be like yeah that's really cool and after a little, you realize they don't know, nor do they care what the fuck you're on about. They would rather you just say, okay, this is what your muscle does. And this is how it works. And they're like, yeah, sweet. That makes a lot of sense to me. And that's all you need to give them. And my only job is to serve those people. So why the fuck am I giving them information they don't even understand? It's so true. I remember early in my career, I worked at a box gym managing a training department.

And one of the discussions I had with the trainers all the time was, if they gave as much of a shit as you do about those small, minutiae-ridden details, they would not have hired you. You do not need to explain to them the difference between myofibril and sarcoplasmic hypertrophy. You need to connect with this person on an intellectual level, on an emotional level, while all of those things that you know, you remain principled enough to make informed decisions about their training. You can weave that stuff in if they care. And I think that's where that's really starting to show up in your content

is you are probably communicating in your content now the way that you've communicated with your clients who in person have had the most success with you. And that's something that really changed the game for me was when people started commenting on my stuff. Like, like they, they would say things like, I wish somebody had told me this before, or gosh, that was so simple. And I was like, okay, if I just communicate to people the way I have four years as a trainer, the way that allowed me to be successful and have a full roster as a trainer on the internet, instead of trying to position myself in this constant dick measuring contest that is online fitness, I'll actually help more people because people want one Steve. They want one Danny. They don't want three of the same people who are trying to occupy the same role.

So it's been fascinating to go through that kind of journey myself. And I don't want to say that I've seen you on a similar journey because everybody's is different, but I've seen you do such a fantastic job of clearly communicating from a space of, I've done this for a fucking decade. I've helped people get results. I've actually trained people. And that's something that, and this is no dig at these social media influencers in the fitness space who are fantastic science commuters, evidence-based communicators.

They don't have that. They might have the ability to read and peruse the literature, but many of them don't have a decade worth of training experience. And it is so clear when I watch your content that you have done that. But that's the thing as well. That's their thing. Their thing is that they have dedicated a lot of their time to understanding research and to even taking part in research, doing their own research and stuff like that.

So that's their thing. So you have to go, well go well that's not your thing so you're only going to be a cheap imitation at best and i learned this there was there was probably there's probably been like two major roles like role models that i've had well mentors um so i had andrew coats who i know you know good friend good friend super cool dudes uh ever the professional super smart great uh he made maybe understand how to be like more concise with my information, how to write a lot better. I don't think I would have ever been open to having you on this podcast after the rise you've had in the last month. If it wasn't for Andrew communicating to me that there is, this is not a zero sum game. I was too competitive. I was too driven by the same competitive traits that had made me a good

athlete and had made me a good salesman to ever create space on a platform for a trainer that has more followers than me. Oh my goodness. I mean, he did a really wonderful job for me. I don't want to detour too much from what you're saying, but I know Andrew really well. And I'm just so grateful for him putting that out there because it really saved me a lot of unnecessary suffering. Oh man, he's such a cool guy as well. And the thing is, when you mentor with someone, you learn from them. But then you also, I don't know if you're like me anyway, you start to almost mold into them a little bit.

And I did that for a little while, kind of molded into... We all have had periods of our professional development where we have absolutely emulated the behaviors of the people whom we look up to most. And I've made that mistake when I've followed the wrong people. And I've molded myself in the mold of the wrong people. I did that a lot early in my career. Again, you don't notice it when you're in it. But later on down the road, you're like, hold up a second. This isn't really how I am. And that was with Andrew. And Andrew is that person. is like the most professional

well put together version of a PT that you will ever picture if you could literally draw a PT on paper and be like what would they be like it would be Andrew knows his shit very well put together doesn't swear doesn't curse just like great person very giving very kind six foot four 240 fucking big dude as well big dude more ginger than me though so that's unfortunate for him but a very big dude very cool um but then i i like obviously worked with him for a while and then stopped for a while and then was riding solo and then i started working with um dan from biceps and bananner. And they're just... The reason I clicked with them is because

the great trainers, again, run a really, really successful online business. They're not sleazy with their sales. They don't do the whole... Because they run almost like a mentorship for coaches now and they've risen from just doing like coaching

normal standard people. And they don't do sleazy sales. They're very upfront with everything they do. They're very honest with everything they do. And they have a lot of banter with all the way that they act. And then I was looking at them and I'm like, well, hold up a second. If they are doing really, really well as well, why can't I speak the way I speak to my friends in a pub?

When my friends care about the stuff that I'm saying about fat loss or muscle growth is when I wrap it up and I can say to them, Hey, look, and you can use like a sexual innuendo. You can use like a stupid drug reference. You can use some swearing in it or something like that. And they're like, Oh yeah, that makes a lot more sense now. I was like, well, I kind of put that in content because the same people that like them that find that useful, you're going to have a population of people online that also find it useful.

And that's what happened. I started wrapping things up the exact same way I would talk to them. I realized that professionalism didn't need to be that you can't swear, you can't curse, you can't do anything. Professionalism instead is more do the people that you're serving get what they want to get out of you know what you're there for yeah and and you're not being a dickhead that obviously really really helps um and yeah it's just been crazy since like the the difference in the engagement the difference in the the way that people talk to me as well like it's not stiff when people message me in my dms it's not like this really awkward exchange

like people just come in and message me and they're like they'll make a joke about my ginger beards and then they'll be like mate i love your content is sick and like they'll just have a laugh of you that's fascinating to me because i think that you know your content is disarming in that way. It's very, very much the way that people might anticipate training with their friend who's got a great sense of humor and who's really witty. And so they scroll down and they, boom, they're hit with a video. And it's witty, it's fun, it's engaging. And then that, in turn, entirely changes how likely and how they choose to communicate with you on that platform. And as far as developing a business and developing an audience, I would rather have people who are comfortable DMing me because I'm approachable than people who are afraid to DM me because I

come across as somebody that I'm really not in an effort to project some sense of professionalism. When in fact, to your point, professionalism is like, I'm on time for shit. I stand by my, you know, my messaging and my principles. I have integrity and like no amount of swearing or not swearing, no amount of clothing or, or like nothing outwardly is going to you know change the bedrock of my professionalism i think that's a really good point because one thing i think we all do as communicators and content creators is we spend so much time focusing on the few shitty comments or the few shitty dms that we almost ignore all of the good stuff it It's like one bad comment will send me. I mean, not so much anymore because back to the form videos you had mentioned, I was probably

20 years old and maybe 175, 180 pounds, 5'8". I'm not a huge guy and I'm natty. So it's like you see, if I'm going into any building, I'm probably going to guy and I'm natty. So it's like, you see, like if I'm going into any building, I'm probably going to be one of the more in shape people there. If I go in the gym, I look pretty good, but I'm not a fitness influencer physique per se. I'm in good shape, but that's kind of where that ends. And it's like the expectation there on YouTube is that you have a bodybuilder physique. So the comments were fucking brutal. And I remember just awful. Everything like, who's this skinny pussy ass bitch? Fuck this guy. Just the most intense shit. There's words that I won't even say, but like, you know, like when within like two hours of a video going up,

everything about your masculinity, sexuality, and body image has been called into question. Eventually it doesn't matter anymore. And like, I wish I never gave that negativity time. And I'm wondering if you went through a similar journey where when you were creating content, you were really concerned with what the angry, always going to be unhappy, always going to find something negative to say people were thinking before you post it. What's going on, guys? Coach Danny here, taking a break from the episode to tell you about my coaching company, Core Coaching Method, and more specifically, our one-on-one fully tailored online coaching program. My online coaching program has kind of been the flagship for Core Coaching Method for a while. Of course, we do have PDF programming and we have app-based programming. But if you want a truly tailored one-on-one experience with a coach like myself or a member of my coaching team, someone who is certified, somebody who has multiple years of experience working with clients in person, online, somebody who is licensed to provide a macro nutrition plan, somebody who is

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baked in accountability support, and all of the stuff that you need from your coach when you check in. We keep our rosters relatively small so that we can make sure you get the best support possible. But you can apply today by going over to corecoachingmethod.com, selecting the online coaching option. And if we have spots available, we'll definitely reach out to you to see if you're a good candidate. And if we don't, we'll put you on a waiting list. But we'll be sure to give you the best shot at the best coaching in the industry. So head over to corecoachingmethod.com and apply for one-on-one coaching with me and my team today. Hey, everybody, I have a favor to ask you. If you're a regular listener or somebody who gets

value out of this podcast, somebody who's learning from me on your health and fitness journey, whether you're a trainer, a high-level athlete, or you're just getting started, other people need this kind of advice. And the best way for you to help me grow the podcast is to take a little bit of time, literally one to two minutes max, to leave a rating and review on the app that you listen to your podcasts on. The majority of you probably listen on an iPhone and you probably listen on Apple Podcasts, but many of you listen on Spotify. Both platforms allow you to leave a quick, easy review. And if you could leave me a five-star review plus a short one to two sentence blurb about what you like, not only

will it help more people reach the podcast, it will help me to continue to refine what it is I bring you each and every week. Thanks so much for doing this. It means the world to me. It helps me achieve my dream of helping more people live a healthier life. Enjoy the episode. Hey guys, taking a break from the action to tell you about one of our favorite new sponsors, Underdog Fantasy. If you're like me, you love sports. Sports was actually how I got into fitness in the first place. And one of my favorite things to do when I'm not working out or working with my clients is watch and engage in sports with my friends. Underdog is the best fantasy sports app out there for best ball and for pick them. If you like football, basketball, baseball, hockey, soccer, WNBA, UFC, boxing, Underdog has something exciting for you.

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This is definitely one of my favorite things to do when I am playing or watching sports. I love underdog and you can go to the app store today, download underdog, enter the promo code Danny, and they will match your first deposit up to a hundred dollars. You'll have a blast playing underdog all season long. Back to the action. I'm a 100%. Do you know what I always go back to as well with that whole thing about like how big you are and everything else? He's like, who's one of the most knowledgeable people on muscle growth in the world?

Like Brad Schoenfeld. Yeah. And like... He's like 140 pounds, bro. He's a huge dude. He's not like jacked as hell, but he's the... Like he would talk anyone about muscle growth under the table. Okay, cool.

So this argument falls down then. But content like yeah 100 i had to someone posted on mine the other day it's the first video i wore a jumper and someone went why would i take advice off of you um you look like a lamppost i was like that's actually quite funny so i just put like a little lamppost emoji and some like laughing faces but you kind of just have to have a laugh of it because no matter what you are, no matter what you do, no matter what you look like, like people are going to say something anyway.

Like I could take my top off when I'm lean and most people would be like, shit, you're in really good shape. I could have my top on and be a little bit heavier and a little bit bulkier. And people are like, you don't really look like super big or anything

because there's no arm veins or anything like that. It's completely based on how much body fat you have, what clothing you're wearing, what kind of muscle bellies you have, which have nothing to do with you and all these other things that are way outside of your control. So yeah, you kind of just have to park it a little bit.

But I get comments that the comments that fuss me the most and they're the things that conflict with your your ego as a person um for me is when people almost talk to me about things and they go this post was oversimplified because you didn't talk about intensity or you didn't talk about frequency or you didn't talk about training age and i'm like the whole point of the post is i'm not talk about intensity or you didn't talk about frequency or you didn't talk about training age. And I'm like, the whole point of the post is I'm not talking about intensity, training age and frequency, because if you made that fucking post, it would have about five views and no one would care and no one would watch

it. Yes. Yes. And I think there's something to be said for being able to just know going into anything you put out there. There's no way I can please everybody with this post. So if, if I'm,

if I'm going to get flack, I'd rather get flack for that than for obviously posting falsities or misinformation. But it still stings. And so was there just a moment where you just, I don't care how much it stings anymore, or even now it still stings a little bit, but you just move onward from it so quickly. And you realize, like you said, if I were to try to oblige what you just said, this post would flop. It's a time and a place thing, I think.

I think over time, I'm going to get more and more desensitized to it. I've only just had this kind of audience now. So I'm still a little bit raw to me. I think coming into this, I already knew coming into talking to you had a little bit of that imposter syndrome going on. And I got a negative comment just before this, and it fucking sent me as well because I was like, shit, now I'm feeling imposter syndrome about this, this person saying this. And I'm like, this is kind of stupid anyway, because of this reason, this reason, and this

reason. But then you're like, oh crap. And then you go one step further and you go, well, if other people are going to see this, and then they don't know that I do know what I know. And then you have to unravel everything you're saying and you're like, it's just your ego. Calm down. It's very visceral. It's very visceral. I think imposter syndrome is so deeply tied to the reptilian part of our brain. And we have anxiety, which is thought-based, and then we have alarm, which is the physical feeling. And I think when imposter syndrome is really flared up, you almost feel it physically. It feels like an alarm has been set off and that I've been discovered and that somebody is going to realize that I'm not who I said I am.

And there's a quote that I like from Alex Ormosi. He said something to the tune of like, execute so effectively and for so long that any doubt you have about yourself essentially disappears. Meaning like you can't be an imposter if you've done it. And it's like, if somebody's sitting here telling me like, hey, I have 11 years of personal training experience, but I've only had a quarter million followers for two weeks. It's like, maybe yes, maybe no. Or maybe you had a quarter million followers worth of assets invested and it just compounded in two weeks and you didn't notice because you had been making those deposits. You had been investing in something and it's like an asset that maybe nobody knew existed.

You were making investments in you and you were just sliding by every day on the stock exchange. Nobody was buying you up. And then boom,, all of a sudden, everybody wants a piece of Steve. But it's always been a quality company. It's always had all the fundamentals right where they need to be. It's just the algorithmic overlords didn't notice. And so it's like when I hear people who are in a similar position as me say, oh, I also have crippling imposter syndrome from time to time. It's like, well, I think we all do. But in the same way I would tell myself it's not warranted. I would tell you the same thing. I don't even know if I see it as a bad thing anymore. I don't think imposter syndrome sometimes

can just be showing to you that you need to do something a little bit more. And I think sometimes people take that the wrong way and they think, oh, well, I have to learn more. Some people are really well-educated and they have imposter syndrome. And I'm like, it could be that. Maybe your imposter syndrome is telling you that you don't know enough about the thing you're talking about and it's triggering something in you. Or it could be that you need to make more videos and your imposter syndrome will go away. Or you need to interact with people more. My imposter syndrome doing this podcast realistically just tells me I need to do more fucking podcasts. It isn't telling me anything else.

But until I do more, it's going to keep on sensing that stimulus that comes in as danger until I give it enough examples that eventually my brain goes, hold up, you're okay. It's not danger. You're all good. There's all these times that you've done it and it's been fine. I agree. And I'm with you there. I do think it's a good thing. It's a little bit of a signal.

And I'd rather have it than not have it. Because you see what happens when real imposters don't have imposter syndrome. They might still grow. They might still build an empire. But they're so much more likely to deviate from what is socially acceptable and to lie and to cheat. And, you know, liver King is a fantastic example of like, when you are an imposter without imposter syndrome, you become the liver King. What you are is, is you're a psychopath or a sociopath. Who's like,

essentially so up your own ass. You, you don't believe yourself to be a phony. You believe so wholeheartedly in your own bullshit that you're a phony. And that comes crashing down on you in a way that I'm guessing having a little bit of trepidation before you go on a podcast probably doesn't. And so I'll sign up for a small sprinkling of imposter syndrome if it prevents me from cosplaying as a fucking caveman and taking 12 grand worth of gear and acting like I'm not. Fucking hell. He's a whole different category as well, isn't he? But this is exactly the point of what you're going to do on social media and who you're serving. on social media and who you're serving. If you build up a character and your character might be that you're trying to be that person that is reading the research and then breaking it down.

But who's that character even serving? And then can you keep that character up? And then when people talk to you in your DMs, or when you're creating content, or when you're talking on social media, or when you get a client and they've come to you through social media, how often do you have to keep up that act? And then how draining is that for you? And then how much are you going to be putting out into the world in terms of like good work, good social media content and everything else? Because you're so tired because you're trying to be someone you're not. Or, and this is what I was saying to you before about like dropping the the air the the stereotypical the the 1980s 1970s professionalism of like suit tired don't swear don't do anything

dropping that and being like you know what fuck that it's a new age it's a new everything you can swear if you want to some people will be offended by it that's absolutely fine they don't have to listen they can go do something else but But you all of a sudden, like for me right now, it doesn't take me as much energy to go through DMs. It doesn't take me as much energy to chat to people. This podcast doesn't take me as much energy afterwards because I've just been able to talk to you in the way that I talk and that's it. So you'll be, I think you'll be surprised if anyone's listening and does make social media. And even if you don't, and this is just how you go about life, like you'd be surprised how far you get by just like dropping barriers and acting like yourself, which is a very fucking easy thing

to say and not a very easy thing to do. Easier said than done. Yeah, of course. And I think liver King's a good segue to just kind of talking about how important it is as an industry that we reach people who are new to this because the liver King schtick didn't, uh, that didn't pull the wool over anybody's eyes who knew anything about physiology or anything about exercise. I think most well-versed athletes, most well-versed fitness enthusiasts, most health enthusiasts were very aware that the dude was almost assuredly a charlatan but the people the people he was literally redder than me getting a compliment he was he was all the time the dude was so juiced to the gills that he just he had that like red hue that you only get when you're going over a gram of

gear and like to to everybody from the outside looking in it was like why isn't it obvious to everybody that this dude's full of shit and the answer is because he's making content that reaches people who are so malleable still they're still so impressionable that, and they don't have as robust a knowledge about fitness that they are, they are seeing him and, and, and it is, it resonates very deeply because all of the content that the people who are the most critical of him are making is flying over their head. And, and censorship has been a huge political topic of conversation here in the States for the last two to three years. And one of the common stances for people is like, hey, don't get rid of bad content. Just make better content. And I see somebody like Liver King who is like, hey, I'm doing an ice bath

and it's good for me. It's primal. That's simple. It resonates. And fitness professionals can be as critical as they want, or they could make an equivalent simple post with an equivalently simple health promoting behavior in character or not in character, with humor or not with humor. And eventually, that's going to push somebody like that further down. So we give so much time, this is a mistake I made as a professional,

so much time bashing and smashing people who are wrong or people who misinterpret the science. And there's a lot of fantastic fitness professionals, educators, PhDs who've made a literal living debunking other people. But just focusing on instead being like, that audience is totally up for grabs

and I'm just going to make content for them. I think there's a lot to be said for that. I think a lot of people, the people that are making that content, they're already preaching to the converted and you're like, okay, so you've got your congregation that you're talking to, and that's all well and good. But people like Liver King, I think it's Carnivore MD, they're just picking up people all the time, like coming in and just getting misinformed. And they base things on very, very simple principles. So the Carnival MD guy, seed oils are bad.

So therefore, he says it enough that every single thing he picks up in a shop, he goes, this has seed oils in it. So automatically, you go, seed oils are bad. And it's a really simple fucking message and everybody can understand it. And all of a sudden, you're picking up traction and the dude gets like 20,000, 25,000 likes on a video. Now, no matter what you say, he's not saying anything else apart from Cedars are bad. He's not doing any crazy sales gimmick at that moment. There are some crazy ones, but he's not doing anything crazy or mad. He's just putting out this real simple message that people are getting behind because they understand it.

So if you want to do something and try and like fight against that battle against it, it's all great bringing out this like really in-depth information that kind of breaks it down. And I get that. And it is worthwhile for some people to understand it. And it's probably worthwhile for the people, let's say Lane Norton comes out and brings that information out.

That's great. But then it's the people like me that listen to Lane Norton that then goes, maybe I'll break it down even simpler so the people that follow me are like, oh shit, that's why he's full of shit. And you're like, there you go. Totally. And it's like, I think the moment it all really clicked for me that it was okay to disseminate advanced information more simply was when I was looking through data from our CDC about obesity and about exercise habits. And I realized that in America, 50% of the population is obese, 75% of the population is overweight and only 12% meet the standard movement guidelines. And so those are two challenging sessions a week of resistance and 90 minutes a week of cardio.

So that means in a country with over 300 million people, about 300 million of them do not do any exercise at all, or they do less than 90 minutes of cardio and less than two days a week of lifting. 75% of them struggle with their weight, and 50% of them struggle with their weight so much they're categorically obese. And I thought to myself, I don't know any fitness professionals that have 300 million followers, but there's 300 million people right here in America who need to lift two days a week, do 90 minutes of cardio, and be able to start climbing that ladder. Lane Norton, fantastic as he may be, is a harder entry point on a fitness journey than Liver King or Carnivore MD because understanding mechanistically that I need to eat 0.7 to 1.0 grams per pound of body weight and protein and train between 10 and 20 sets per week per muscle group spread across two sessions per week to optimize frequency aiming for seven to nine hours of sleep

is a substantially harder message for me to make actionable than fucking take your top off, dump in the cold plunge, don't eat seed oil. And while you're at the store, maybe get a testicle and give that a try. It's like people will try crazy shit if it's delivered really effectively. And that was the moment that I realized, I think there's enough to go around and there's enough people to help that I can just be me. I had a very, very similar moment. But in terms of content creation itself, maybe, again, maybe four or five weeks back, I did a course called The Social Circle. Again, great course, great content course. Gets you understanding a lot about how social media works and stuff like that.

get you understanding a lot about how social media works and stuff like that. But there was one video which literally just said, if no one's watching your content, if people don't watch all the way through, because that's what then puts you onto more views, is that people watch a long amount of your video. A long amount? That's not grammatically correct, but then okay. They watch a good amount of your video and then it ships out to more people and if you don't get enough views then it's because your video is boring and that was it and i went oh fuck and i was like i wasn't getting a lot of views and i was like it's because it's either boring or you've

lost someone it's one of those two things and they're kind of one and the same anyway so you've kind of lost someone's interest as soon of those two things. And they're kind of one and the same anyway. So you've kind of lost someone's interest. And as soon as you lost someone's interest, they're just going to scroll because they're on their phone. They've got their thumb ready. They're just going to flick to the next video. And it was like every two to three seconds, just be doing something. So whether that's like a camera change, whether that's just subtitles on there, whether that's the thing that you're talking about has such a captivating way of talking about it. And that's where I started doing my videos. And I was like, okay, hold up a second.

If I put these together as almost like telling a story from start to finish, and they kind of flow through as a story. And there's like some jokes in there. And then there's information with it. And then there's a word that you normally wouldn't hear fitness professionals say. Then people are probably going to watch it. And people do watch it. And now people have messaged me like, I started going to the gym again and I'm absolutely loving it. And I'm basing it off of your videos and stuff like that. And I'm like, sweet. That's exactly what I wanted.

And they're like, it's just not intimidating. The things that you're talking about, I get. They make sense. And I'm not exactly talking about simple concepts all the time either. If we're talking about people coming into fitness, they would be fairly advanced. We're talking about long muscle lengths and why that's better for muscle growth. And people would be like, the fuck is a long muscle length? But if you say to people, hey, when you get to the bottom of a squat and your butt's all stretched out, that's probably better for muscle growth than the bit of the top where you squeeze it and there's no real weight on it. And they're like, oh, that makes a lot of fucking sense and you're like yeah you don't

have to try and be smart and but this is what's fantastic about it and i've i've heard this said so many times and it really didn't resonate with me until i felt like i'd earned it but you hear people all the time you really know that you understand something when you can explain it to somebody simply like if you can't explain a it to somebody simply. Like if you can explain a concept to somebody simply, then you don't really understand it that well. And I'd say after about a decade of doing this, even some of the more advanced nutritional concepts, and as far as physiological adaptations go, muscle growth is about as complex of a physiological occurrence as we've got. Like there are a preponderance of tiny minutiae details that go into muscle growth. Like the only thing

in fitness that I think is remotely as complicated are like high level biomechanical athletic things like swinging a golf club where you have to have a unique understanding of physics. Like if you know how muscle growth occurs at the most granular level and you can make that simple in a video, you're mighty silly for not thinking you're an expert. And it's like in simplifying it, you are displaying a form of expertise. It doesn't take as much effort to just regurgitate what somebody else has said as it does to communicate eloquently like, hey, you're going to get more growth in your glutes if you squat deeper and you achieve a greater stretch in your glutes and then come up. Then you will be like, muscles grow better at longer lengths per Sanchez at all 2021. It's like the person who is simplifying it is actually the person who knows

it and applies it. And I would bet my ass and you can correct me if I'm wrong, but I bet my ass, if I went back and watch videos on your page from like a year ago, that the videos that you're making now, like let's say I went in and I got a session from you a year ago, it would be more similar to your videos now than your videos then. Like I bet your videos feel an awful lot like a training session with you would feel. And I bet you that's probably how you've learned to communicate with clients over the years to make it enjoyable to come and train. And I just think it's, for me, as a coach's coach, like somebody who's done this for a long time, I enjoy training clients in person. I opened up a studio after the pandemic because I think that there is such a space for

in-person fitness and it is also a physical therapy clinic. So there's a medical bend there. But I believe so wholeheartedly in that, that I did that probably against the better judgment of what most people say you ought to do, transitioning to everything being more digital. And it's so obvious to me that why people are gobbling up this content. It's like, well, if you walked into the gym and you saw 10 people training the way that you fucking watch fitness YouTube and you see one guy training like you actually train clients, what are you going to be drawn to? And your videos feel like a session. And people want to have a good time as well. I think people in fitness, like fitness trainers

and professionals, and again, because you get so sucked into the weeds and you go, I know how good this is going to be for your life and I know how much it's going to change it. You want to tell people that. And I get that because I used to do it as well. But I find that 90%, actually probably 99%, I've completely made that statistic up, but there we go. We're going with it. I think most people don't like that. They don't like it. They don't want to be told about how much it's going to change their lives and stuff. It doesn't do fuck all for them. They go, oh, that's really nice, actually. Yeah. And then they forget about it. Whereas if you can make the whole process enjoyable, say if a client comes in with me

and they have a laugh whilst they're training, they still do their workout, they're going to love it. If they come into me and I'm telling them about, oh, I'm reading them this motivational speech and telling them how much they're going to bloody love life in 10 years, they're not going to fucking care. And after a while, they're going to stop training with me because they're going to be like, yeah, training's all right, but it's fucking boring. So your job is to make sure it's entertaining enough to keep them coming. So then they get the benefits of the long-term stuff anyway. It just comes along for the ride. And content is the same.

Your job is to wrap this stuff up in a way that's enjoyable for them to take. But stop being so... Again, I had to call myself out on this. But stop being so deep and dramatic. I think Instagram is flooded with very deep, meaningful, purposeful. Sometimes it's good mixed in there. But sometimes you just need to ease off a little bit and be like, hey, look, sometimes you just want to have a little bit of a laugh of it and go, cool, sweet. I know what I need to do. And again, it completely depends who your avatar is and who

you're approaching as a person. Well, I think you make a really good point. Life is very serious. Life is very stressful. People don't need some puritanical fitness influencer communicating to them so seriously and with so much, I believe the word is profundity, like profoundness. And I'm totally guilty of this. Sometimes I feel like in how I communicate things, it could come across as puritanical or that I'm standing on a soapbox. And oftentimes what the posts that perform the best are the same exact message, but instead of being wrapped in seriousness, weightiness, you must do this. They're funny. they're funny yeah it's like instead of saying if you'd like to live a very long time you should resistance train multiple times a week do

90 minutes of zone 2 cardio and consume a large amount of plants rich in fiber micronutrients and substantial protein instead you say hey if you don't want to die early you should fucking pick some shit up and eat a little bit of protein and vegetables try it sometime and it's like amazing how in a media ecosystem that is so driven by drama and drama and drama that a little bit of humor just like oh it's so much better and it's like people need that mate it changed it changes the flow as well like it's like the night out mentality. It changes you from being like the bouncer telling the guys to make sure they don't

fuck around too much and make sure they behave and you can drink, but not too much or you get kicked out. And it turns you into actually being the one down there drinking with them with your arm around them, having a good time and having a chat about the crazy stuff that's going on around you. You become that person for them in fitness. They're going for the ride with you rather than you being on your soapbox preaching at them,

which nobody likes that. I can't say nobody likes that. That's a bit over-reductionist, but a lot of people don't. I think the people that need the most help are the people for whom that type of communication has already either turned them off or it's not worked. There's not too many people that I know of who need to lose a significant amount of weight or need help getting started with forming a habit around their fitness routine who have not already tried, who have not already had people make multiple well-reasoned logical claims as to why they need to do it. There's an emotional barrier around it. And no amount of seriousness or gravitas is going to break down

that barrier. But interestingly enough, a little bit of relatability, humor, and humility all of a sudden smashed that barrier. And to your point, you get a DM that says, dude, I went to the gym today. It wasn't so shitty because I realized that for you, like from you lowering the bar, um, like all of a sudden I felt comfortable. I remember a post I made once where I said, like, you are not a lion amongst sheep because you lift weights and you are not the hardest worker in the room because you PR'd on a leg press. Lifting weights is amazing, but you're not a fucking superhero for going to the gym. And it agitated a large number of people. But it resonated so deeply with people who need to hear the gym is not a fucking battlefield and you do not have to be a soldier to feel okay here.

I mean, but that'll bet those people that didn't resonate with, they're already the people that, uh, that you're trying to come away from. They're the people that put fitness in a place sometimes to a lot of people where it's off putting, like they make it sound like you have to sacrifice your entire life.

You have to make sure that you're never out drinking. You never have in like any kind of late nights, you never skipping meals and stuff. And most people do do all that stuff. And you probably do that as well. You just don't tell people. So if you come along and you're like, actually, you don't need to do all that. And you can still achieve a pretty impressive physique. And you still grow a lot of muscle if we just follow these basic principles here. People are a lot more sold on that. That's sweet. Okay, cool. Let's go. principles here. People are a lot more sold on that. That's sweet. Okay, cool. Let's go.

I think people need to be given permission for fitness to be a part of their life, not their entire life. And I think because so many fitness professionals, fitness is their entire life, that that's really off-putting. And so showing that you are a fit person, not just a fitness person. It's like, I'm fit, but I'm also there's, I'm funny. I'm fit. I make jokes. I'm self-deprecating. That is going to probably be more palatable to somebody who has been trying.

But the prototypical fitness influencer who so many of us have tried to be is not going to resonate with them. And if they were, they would have been in shape a long time ago. And so I think, I think you're doing a fantastic job of, of really filling the void. And as you kind of circle the wagons, you're like, what are, what are you focusing on with your content? Are you going to continue down this, this, this kind of through line here because you're doing so well with it? Are you going to expand into doing more things? It's exciting to watch. And I'd like to hear where you plan on going with it. So I always see this as...

At the moment, what I'm doing is I'm bringing people to the surface and they're aware of me. But this is very surface level. And if my account shut down yesterday, tomorrow, people would forget me by the end of the week. And're aware of me. But this is very surface level. And if my account shut down yesterday, tomorrow, people would forget me by the end of the week. And that's all good. That's completely normal. That happens. But that's because the information I'm given is little small bits. So then you have to bring them into the deeper web. So for now, I want to start building out an email list, which again, is a bit deeper, but still not crazy. And then potentially transition into YouTube, which is crazy. I wrote one of my posts today. I think it got like a couple of hundred likes just in a comment. And I was like,

okay, cool. There's a bit of a call there. We could do YouTube. That could work. And again, YouTube is then where I can start taking some of those simple things that you've got little nibbles on and people go, oh shit, okay, I understand that now. And then you can start talking to people on a little bit of a deeper level to the level that they need. And that's the overarching thing is always going, well, what level does that person need? What level of jokiness, humor, or if you're not jokey, you're super serious, just call, be super serious. There'll be people that like resonate with that anyway, but you still have to go, what level of knowledge do they need and do they want? And that's, uh, I think that's going to be a fun

little balancing act if I do do YouTube to figure out where to stop when you're talking on like a little bit of a deeper level. Well, I think you should do YouTube. I think you should continue to produce as much content as possible because I think you're really helping a lot of people. And I think the proof is in the reach. The proof is in the engagement. And, you know, as somebody who really wants to make a difference with as many people as possible,

I see what you're doing. And I think you ought to really keep pushing, keep grinding, keep going. I think you could get to a million halfway through next year, which is probably crazy to even hear because it almost seems impossible, but you're just doing such a good job of it. I'm happy we finally got the time to sit down and have a little discussion. I'm excited to watch you continue to grow, you all the best of luck tell the people where they can find you um at the moment instagram so steve is it steve.craft coaching they are totally remember steve.craft coaching um just come say hello i probably won't get back to you because there's so many fucking dms i don't know what

to do with them i feel terrible so i put up like little q and a's ands. I don't know what to do with them. I feel terrible. So I put up like little Q&As and I'm like, I can't get to all these Q&As. Yeah, I don't do DMs anymore. I haven't for a while. It's pointless. You get lost. You get so lost. I like go through it and I'm like, right,

cleared the first one and then you get a message request folder and then you get a further message request and they're both forward. I'm like, oh my God. Yeah, mine's been 99 plus for a while. And so just post the question box, you know, and they can get you there. It's a lot more organized and saves you from some unsolicited penis pictures, which if you haven't gotten them yet, they're coming, buddy. For once, it's not me sending them.

I'm joking. I don't. No, I haven't done it in a few years. But yeah, you can reach me on Steve Craft Coaching. You can reach me on Facebook, Stephen Keen. I think it's just personal Facebook, but you can follow it. I don't know.

I'm not fully invested in this. This isn't a proper web for me just yet, but those two things and then join my email list and then I'll just write some fucking nonsense to you every now and again. Love it. Dude, thank you so much for your time. Thank you for your time as well, Danny.