Dynamic Dialogue with Danny Matranga - 281: 9 Evidenced Based Reasons to use the Sauna

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

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Welcome in everybody to another episode of the dynamic dialogue podcast. I'm really excited to discuss what we're discussing on the episode today, which is sauna use. Sauna, of course, is something that I have been passionate about for quite some time, and it is very much in vogue now, as is cold exposure, temperature modulation, and the way in which we expose our body to different temperatures and how our bodies respond, usually through the form of health promotion via hormesis, meaning a little stress yields a big positive return, just like exercise is all the rage. And I think that heat and cold are two very, very awesome tools that you can use. But in this episode specifically, we are going to be

discussing nine evidence-based reasons for incorporating sauna into your lifestyle, practical ways you can do it. If you are currently exercising, you are not exercising, you name it, I want to make sure that you are getting and having the best access possible to these tools. So today's chat is all about sauna. Sit back and enjoy. This episode is brought to you in special part thanks to our awesome partners over at Ice Barrel. Now, I know what you're thinking. We're talking about heat and sauna today. So it probably doesn't make too much sense to talk about cold water immersion, but the two are not dissimilar. You see our bodies respond really positively and really uniquely to really high heats or really cold colds. And even though cold showers and cryotherapy are all the rage, cold water immersion, or simply dunking your

body up to the neck in cold water is the most evidence-based way to promote recovery, promote muscle protein, or I should say decrease muscle protein breakdown and improve session to session recovery when it comes to using cold. Nothing tops cold water immersion. The problem though is finding a reliable, useful, and aesthetically pleasing way to perform cold water immersion can be a pain in the butt. Don't be like me and fill up your bathtub too high with water and ice only to flood your second story apartment. And don't also be like me and use some dinky metal cattle trough, which is just going to collect a crap ton of algae and end up looking like absolute dog duty in your backyard.

Use something that looks a little more aesthetic, like an ice barrel that holds 60 gallons of water that stays cold all the time. You really only need your cold water immersion to be less than about 55 degrees. So there's really no need for a like frozen solid ice bath slash cold water immersion experience unless you are into it. If you are, the ice barrel can hold extremely cold colds and it tends to keep things between 40 to 60 degrees for me sitting outside in a warm part of California. So I don't need to replace the water all that often. And it looks gorgeous next to my Sisu sauna. I love using cold water immersion multiple times throughout the day in different contexts.

Oftentimes I'll do it in the morning prior to training. Sometimes I'll do it in the afternoon after I get home and I need a boost. And I do it a lot on my non-training days to help promote recovery. The cool thing about it is what I have seen in my own experience is that quick one to two minute sessions promote recovery, make me feel like I've spiked my dopamine, give me a surge for the back half of the day and have in no way impeded my ability to gain muscle. That is something that a lot of people worry about when they use cold water immersion. And I can tell you from personal experience, I have not had any problems. All I've noticed is that my joints feel better. I have a free pick me up anytime I want it, whether it be to replace my morning coffee

or replace an afternoon energy drink. Cold water immersion has been amazing, and Ice Barrel wants to hook up all of you amazing listeners with some pretty serious savings. You can head over to icebarrel.com slash Danny. Check out using the code Danny. Save $125 on your Ice Barrel experience. You'll love it. It'll get you taking better care of your body

and you can't go wrong. All right, folks, let's get into the episode. So when it comes to sauna use, we need to first and foremost determine what kind of sauna we're talking about. So there are wet saunas or steam rooms, which typically are between 120 to let's say 130 degrees. They're very, very humid. You will sweat quite a bit. There are infrared saunas, which are 10 to 15 degrees hotter than that, that use infrared light to penetrate the body and essentially heat it up from within without promoting as

much heat on the body's surface. from within without promoting as much heat on the body's surface. And then lastly, we have traditional Finnish style hot rock saunas, which are usually between 160 all the way up to 200 degrees. And those are when people typically discuss the sauna literature, the type of sauna that they are citing, because this is the sauna modality that has been around the longest, over 2,000 years in fact. So for the purpose of today's discussion, we will be talking mostly about what it is that you can expect from engaging with a traditional standard sauna experience. Not an infrared, not a steam sauna. This does not mean that you can't get some of these effects from these other modalities. In fact, you can get a lot of these effects from simply

closing all the windows in your car on a hot day and sitting in there. Hopefully you don't pass out. But the thing that I'm trying to avoid in this discussion is getting caught up in the minutia and instead talking about the benefits of heat exposure. And I'm going to be talking about benefits which have been examined and exhibited in hotter temperatures. So if you're listening to this thinking, can I try the steam? Can I try the infrared? Go ahead. I think they're fine. I think the infrared has a lot of literature supporting its unique usage. Just know that what I'm talking about today is going to be specific to saunas that are probably going to be creating heat north of about 165 degrees. These are typically made with

cedar and wood. You've probably seen them in your gym. You've probably seen them in hotels and spas. That's what we're talking about. This does not mean that you will not benefit from traditional or non-traditional sauna or changing between them. You just got to know what we're talking about before we get started. So the first reason that you should use the sauna, the number one first reason is that it is a form of hormesis. And for those of you who aren't familiar with the term, hormesis or a hormetic effect is something that happens when you expose the body to a small amount of something that is challenging or difficult. So exercise can have a hormetic effect. It's stressful on the front end with a positive effect on the back end. can have a hormetic effect. It's stressful on the front end with a positive effect on the back end.

What we're trying to do is expose the body to a low dose of whatever this agent is. It can be an environmental stressor like heat or exercise. It could even be something like a vaccine, for example, which happens at a very low dosage. Then you get a positive adaptive beneficial effect on the back end, being cautious to avoid over going and overdoing it and getting damaging dosage or exposure to damaging dosage. So for example, a 200 degree box like a sauna is definitely stressful enough to kill you, but it's not so stressful in a 15 to 20 minute session that it will kill you. In the same way that maybe doing a five hour long workout could lead to the development of rhabdomyolysis, but a really effective one hour long workout done five times a week is the key to longevity, independence, and preventing much of the illness that plagues humanity.

So my number one reason for using the sauna is that it is a very, very effective, low-dose hormetic stressor that you can engage with a couple times a week that has a variety of benefits. Yes, it can be challenging at first. Yes, it can be stressful, but it is a hormesis. It is essentially like exercise and a lot of the other stressors that we incur that have positive and adaptive benefits on the back end. And what I love about sauna is even for people who are resistant to exercise, not resistance exercise, resistant to exercise, meaning they don't love it. They're not jumping out of their chair to go to the gym and work out. I know many of you are. This is a

podcast with an audience ship of many health and fitness enthusiasts. So because of that, I understand that many of you do enjoy a nice hard workout, but sauna is a little more palatable than a hard workout. And I think for people who are very deconditioned, who don't have the ability to really exercise well, who struggle with, let's say, mobility. I think of my dad, somebody with Parkinson's disease who literally can't walk so using the gym and a lot of the gym's equipment is extremely difficult something like sauna allows for a low dose aerobic effect it gets some positive benefits to the circulatory system we're going to talk all about this and it exposes the body and mind to some physical stress and

discomfort and i think that right then and there is the reason I put this on at number one. It's for those of you who aren't even exercising, who aren't in a position where you want to exercise. Maybe you have a disability or a limitation and you can't exercise. Now, that doesn't mean you can sauna. You should always check with your practitioner or healthcare provider before you start doing anything hormetic. But yeah, I love the accessibility of sauna. I love that it's an introduction to challenging things. And I think there's a lot to learn from. Okay. Number two, and this is kind of a big duh, but sauna use is correlated with decreased all cause mortality. And it appears that there is a doseent relationship. This means that more tends to

be better. The more USANA, the lower your likelihood of dying. That is what the term decreased all-cause mortality means. All-cause mortality means mortality or death related to all causes. That typically in America would mean mostly heart disease, cancer, diabetes. Those are the big ones. Those are the things that are taking most people out. Yes, in 2020, COVID came through. And obviously, when you get a once-in-a-century pandemic, that's going to skew data. But more often than not, people die of cardiovascular disease, cancer, diabetes, atherosclerosis, which is a form of cardiovascular disease. which is a form of cardiovascular disease, right? So, uh, the stroke, very common cause of death in America, uh, again, a vascular disease, a lot of the diseases that kill people specifically, let's say cardiovascular disease, cause we're going to talk a lot about the benefits for sauna

in the heart. Um, they can be mitigated with sauna use. We have seen them be mitigated with sauna use. We have evidence that shows not only decreased all-cause mortality, but a lot of specific and unique benefits for the actual, let's call it, cardiorespiratory system, so both the heart and the lungs. So sauna use obviously decreased risk of all-cause mortality. I'm sure you guys have seen this. This has been around for years. I believe Rhonda Patrick originally popularized this. People talk a lot about sauna's ability to promote and extend life, oftentimes citing evidence and data with fruit flies. But the JAMA, which is a very, very popular journal, has shown some pretty incredible correlations between sauna use

and decreased all-cause mortality. So if you are just looking to live a little longer and you want something that has very high ROI, it looks like sauna sessions anywhere from 15 to 20 minutes, two to four times a week can be really, really helpful. Okay, let's talk next about what I believe to be one of the more unsung benefits of the sauna. And that is actually the improvement in the contractile capability of the heart that we see with sauna use. So when we are in the sauna, we typically see the heart rate increase. So let's say at rest, you have a heartbeat of

60 beats per minute. Okay. When you are exposed to heat stress, we often see this heart rate spike. When you are exposed to heat stress, we often see this heart rate spike. I've worn a polar chest strap monitor in the sauna many times, and depending on the temperature, I find that my heartbeat is anywhere from 110 to 120 beats per minute. Now, we had Brian Borstein on the podcast about a week ago, and he and I discussed how one might determine that they're in zone two cardio, or they're doing zone two cardio. And he said, this would be cardio that you did for an hour. And after an hour, you could probably go for another hour, maybe an hour after that. It's cardio that you can do while you talk. Now, I would say the sauna is probably going to elevate your aerobic output more towards just barely getting into like zone one, a hundred beats per minute, 110 beats per minute might not quite

be enough to get you into that zone two range. So I wouldn't say that you could just sit in the sauna for three hours a week and not have to do cardio, but there are some unique things that happen to the heart when we expose the body to this kind of heat. Obviously, we see increased blood flow and what we call blood redistribution. Typically, what will happen when you get in the sauna is the body's core temperature will elevate from its standard 98.6 degrees or about 37 degrees Celsius up to 102, 103 degrees, about 39 degrees Celsius. This doesn't seem like much, but this is a considerable increase in body temperature. With that, we see blood redistribution away from the core and into the extremities. So we see more blood being pumped away from the body's center and into the arms and the legs.

With that, we of course see increased sweating. And while the stroke volume, meaning the actual amount of blood being pumped, stays pretty stable, we do see the heart rate increase considerably. I said that mine generally increases from a resting heart rate of about 50 all the way up to 110 to 120, depending on the duration of the session. If I do sauna after exercise, let's say I do aerobic activity that is zone two and my heart rate is 140 beats per minute. If I get in the sauna, my heart rate will stay at about 125 to 130 beats per minute, which will probably prolong some of the aerobic adaptations that I'm getting.

So with the heart and the specific benefit of the contractile capabilities, we're seeing an increase in cardiac output, an increase in heart rate, blood being pumped to different parts of the body and redistributed. And that is, in my opinion, exercise that is beneficial for a very important organ in the heart that is accessible for people who either lack mobility, aren't in a position to do a ton of cardio, or would like a mildly aerobic effect after a training session. So really exciting, really cool, awesome opportunity here to train the heart using sauna. I think you can improve your heart health with this tool? Absolutely. And we will talk a lot more about this. We're going to talk a little bit more about blood pressure, about endothelial function,

and vascular compliance, elasticity. All of this stuff, blood pressure is connected to the heart, of course. But I had to start with just the heart itself. I think uniquely beneficial for the heart to use the sauna. Okay. Number four reason to use the sauna. Number four, evidence-based reason is that the tissues of the arterial wall will increase their contractility, their pliability, their compliance, if you will. Essentially, when you get in the sauna, if you remember back to high school biology class, you probably remember that there are three types of muscle tissue. All three types get trained in the sauna. The first is the skeletal muscle tissue. That's trained when you get in and out and you stand up and down. That is the voluntary muscle of the body. You think before you use

skeletal muscle tissue. The second is cardiac muscle tissue. We talked all about the body. You think before you use skeletal muscle tissue. The second is cardiac muscle tissue. We talked all about the heart. What's going on, guys? Taking a break from this episode to tell you a little bit about my coaching company, Core Coaching Method. More specifically, our app-based training. We partnered with Train Heroic to bring app-based training to you using the best technology and best user interface possible. You can join either my Home Heroes team, or you can train from home with bands and dumbbells, or Elite Physique, which is a female bodybuilding-focused program where you can train at the gym with equipments designed specifically to help you develop strength as well as the glutes,

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you in the Core Coaching Collective, my app-based training community. Back to the show. When we get in the sauna, we have an increased heart rate, okay? An increased cardiac output because we're redistributing blood. But again, the cardiac muscle tissue is involuntary. When we exercise, we don't have to think about our heart beating because all of that is coordinated for us using some incredible biological and electrical mechanisms. So the last piece is smooth muscle tissue. Smooth muscle tissue is the muscle tissue that lines the arterial wall. that lines the arterial wall.

So these are the small, again, involuntary muscles that expand and contract with exposure to heat. Interestingly enough, there is another type of smooth muscle in the body that is a fantastic exemplification of what happens to our arterial blood vessels, or let's call it our our, this is very difficult to say, our arterial equipment. And that muscle is actually in the male scrotum. It's known as the cremaster muscle. And the cremaster muscle is smooth muscle. When the cremaster muscle is exposed to heat, the scrotum will expand and the testes will move further away from the body.

When the body is exposed to cold temperatures, the cremaster muscle will contract and pull the testes closer to the body. This is the best visible example I can think of. And again, this is of course more commonly witnessed by men than it is by women. And for women who have witnessed this, maybe or maybe it wasn't your choice. But when the smooth muscle of the cremaster is exposed to cold, we see rapid contraction and heat. We see rapid expansion. The arterial machinery in the small smooth muscle sheath that kind of lines all of your vessels responds similarly. When you are exposed to adrenaline or high heat, what happens is those vessels either contract or expand. And so in the example of like being chased or being hot, when adrenaline is pumping, you're going to see expansion because

your body knows it needs to get blood around. And we cannot contract that muscle. Remember, three types of muscles, skeletal, we contract. It's voluntary. Anything we're thinking about doing, even if you're fidgeting, you're using skeletal muscle. Okay, cardiac muscle, running on its own. Smooth muscle, that's in your digestive tract, your arteries. We're not thinking about using our smooth muscle. It's operating on its own, and it's typically influenced by things that aren't in our control, one of which is temperature. So when you get really hot, you actually strengthen the smooth muscle in your arterial walls. Not necessarily in the way that you might with hypertrophy training where it's just going to, you're not going to get in the sauna and hypertrophy stuff so much. You're not going

to get so jacked with your arteries that they're going to get clogged. It's not like that. They get better at performing expansion and dilation. So the function of the vascular system improves when we do sauna more often. Interestingly enough, getting in the ice bath or a cold water immersion does the opposite. So when you go in the cold, you see contraction of that smooth muscle, vasodilation, and almost everything I described flips. Instead of seeing blood redistributed to the limbs, it gets redistributed back to the core. So going from hot to cold, hot to cold, hot to cold creates a relaxation and a contraction of that smooth muscle. Not unlike what happens when you voluntarily contract skeletal muscle. So

there are some unique benefits to the function of the endothelium and the compliance of the vascular tissue when using sauna. Long story short, we know it's really good for the heart and we know it's really good for the vessels. So that is part of the cardio respiratory system. And I think that that is a unique benefit that people need to consider, which is what am I doing for the health of my vascular system, my veins, my arteries, right? My capillaries, all of these things seem to benefit from exposure to high heats at a hormetic dose. Okay. Number five is sauna is going to elevate hormones, specifically endorphin. And endorphin typically stays elevated after you leave the sauna. A lot of people report feeling better, feeling uplifted,

feeling boosted, feeling happy, excited, just positive after they leave the sauna. After they get out, they report feeling just plain better. And I have noticed this so many times for so many years where I'm quite literally craving a post-sauna feeling. I love the feeling I have noticed this so many times for so many years where I'm quite literally craving a post-sauna feeling. I love the feeling I have when I get out of the sauna so much that it makes me use the sauna more. That probably doesn't sound too foreign to you guys, but for those of you who don't exercise or experience a lot of physical hormesis or stress that's physical, you probably don't tap into that endorphin system all that often. And it is a wonderful system, a system that feels extremely good to use and extremely good to tap into.

thing, number six, is sauna use actually decreases time to fatigue in exercise. So, endurance athletes who use sauna have been shown to have a substantial decrease in time to exhaustion. Now, this is one of the few studies that I have seen that actually shows increases in tangible physical performance. But in the study, just so you guys know, is heat acclimation responses of an ultra endurance running group preparing for hot desert competition. of an ultra endurance running group preparing for hot desert competition. This is from 2012 from Costa, Crockford, Moore, and Walsh. Okay. And this study found, again, using sauna to train for ultra endurance and heat acclimation. Sauna can increase plasma volume and stroke volume. This is blood flow to the heart. This essentially reduces the heart rate in the cardiovascular strain for the given workload, allowing you to do the same amount of work in less time. And this group showed that they reached a point of exhaustion 32% slower than the group that did not do sauna therapy. Now, granted, this is

something that is very niche, okay? But very, very encouraging. If you are an endurance athlete, particularly somebody who competes at high temperatures, or your body just gets hot in your sport, or you travel to places where it's hot. Maybe you play in a league or a setting or a context where you're not always in the same climate. I know for a lot of you who perform and compete at high levels, this is the case. If you are going to be competing, training, anywhere that's hot, I would absolutely recommend getting some pre-exposure in using the sauna. I think just knowing that sauna is tough, you have to sit in there, you have to be mentally kind of ready

for what's at hand. I think that plays a huge role in it too. I don't think it's simply just being exposed to the heat. I think a lot of really wonderful and beautiful things start to happen mentally for you when you do the sauna that can help with exercise. I noticed I was able to train much closer to failure with a much higher degree of consistency when I started doing more cold plunging. So I think there's something there. Uncomfortable temperature creates a little bit of discomfort at the time, but your body gets better and your mind gets better at managing that. Okay. Number six, or actually we just did number six. So we're already on the way to number seven. Sauna causes a big release of something known as heat shock protein. Now, many of you have heard of this. This is probably the single most cited

benefit of sauna use the release of heat shock protein, the release of growth hormone, and the decrease of whole body inflammation and a lot of the oxidative stress that comes from life and the way we live. And I'll be the first person to tell you, I think inflammation when it runs rampant and it's left unchecked can be a problem. I think oxidative stress when it's running rampant and left unchecked can cause a problem. But the good news is, in most cases, there are positive amounts of inflammation, positive amounts of oxidative stress, and sauna can help us manage this stuff without necessarily incurring the negative benefit of, or I should say negative implications of wiping it out entirely. So for example, post-workout inflammation can be good for hypertrophy, but chronic inflammation can be bad. We don't want to be in a situation

where we go out of our way to nuke inflammation all the time because inflammation has benefits and it has negatives. There's trade-offs, right? So post-workout, a sauna, which can be anti-inflammatory, might be like, oh, it's not really a good idea because I don't want to lose my post-workout inflammation. But it doesn't seem that the anti-inflammatory response of sauna is so strong and so acute like it is with cold water immersion that doing it post-workout is going to be a problem. I think a lot of this has to do with the heat shock proteins, their ability to be protein sparing, the growth hormone release associated with high temperatures. So if you're looking for something to help you recover from a hard session,

if you want something that might help you acutely increase growth hormone, I don't think it'll stay elevated chronically. If you want something that can help you manage oxidative stress that you can do after your workout without sacrificing hypertrophy because it's not so anti-inflammatory, like I wouldn't say do cold water immersion post-workout, but I think you could benefit from sauna. So I'm really big on that and I really like it post-workout. check it out. Number eight is all about the cardiovascular system. We talked about sub components. We talked about the heart specifically. We talked about the vessels of the arterial wall, but let's talk about the big one here, which is left ventricular function and blood pressure. Okay. So sauna use has been shown to decrease blood pressure. Okay. We have witnessed big improvements in cardiovascular health with long-term sauna use. We see a bunch of protective responses against various different processes that cause disease. different processes that cause disease and disability. Typically, with sauna use, we see a decrease in both systolic and diastolic blood pressures. We see an increase in left ventricular volume, meaning how much the left ventricle of the heart can pump.

Okay. Long story short, when you look at stuff and exercise physiology specific to the heart, you know, there are different quadrants and you have a left ventricle and you have a right ventricle and you have a left atrium and you have a right atrium. The left ventricle is the one that we spend the most time looking at. Okay. We typically see increased arterial compliance. We talked about this and why this is important. That does play a role in blood pressure. Remember, your heart and your vessels work together to regulate blood pressure. The amount of volume in your blood, meaning the amount of water in your blood plays a role. That's why sodium, which can make your blood more watery, can play a role in blood

pressure. That's why, okay, so think about this. There's two ways you can adjust the pressure in a hose, the hose itself and the nozzle. The heart's like a nozzle. You can turn it on or off. The more you turn it up, the harder it's pumping, the greater the blood pressure, the greater the pressure in the hose. Now, let's say that hose has a membrane inside of it that can contract or relax just like your cells. Well, if you have very constricted or clogged or weak arteries that don't have good expansion capabilities, guess what? You'll have way higher blood pressure. So when you start exercising and pumping blood through that hose and pushing and expanding those arteries and veins and vessels, you get better compliance. And we see this big time with the heart. We talked about all the ways that the heart improves,

but blood pressure specifically seems to get much, much better with sauna use. And a lot of people who suffer from high blood pressure could benefit from doing a little bit of walking, a little bit of lifting and a little bit of sauna. And if you can't lift and you can't walk, I think the sauna could be a really good place to start. But if you do have high blood pressure, you should definitely check with your physician before you begin any exercise routine. Okay. the ninth and final tip I have for you guys is specific to dementia and Alzheimer's risk, really all neurodegenerative illness, but two to four times a week in the sauna has been shown to decrease the likelihood of dementia. In fact,

going back really quickly while I'm looking at my statistics and specifically speaking about blood pressure, two to three sessions a week reduces the risk of developing hypertension or high blood pressure by 24%, and four to seven uses per week reduces likelihood of developing high blood pressure by 46% compared to men who just use the sauna one time a week. However, a single sauna session has been shown to lower blood pressure and improve the compliance of the arteries, like similarly to that of exercise. So sauna is pretty incredible for that. It's also pretty incredible for the prevention of dementia and Alzheimer's because a lot of those diseases are correlated with poor vascularization and blood supply to the brain. Much of the degenerative illness that affects the brain can it interprets exercise. It picks up this hormetic stress and it adapts. And if you don't do too much, you will benefit tremendously from it. So let's really quickly

here talk about how to use the sauna. Let's say you're using hot sauna. If you're using infrared or steam sauna, it's not going to be as difficult, but a lot of people report feeling a burning sensation in the nose or in the throat when they begin using the sauna. And this is reasonable because the sauna can get quite hot and it can burn a little bit, especially in those airways. I would say, start small, start with a dosage that feels palatable. Start with something that seems reasonable, okay? I would say you can probably get away with five to 10 minutes. I know that doesn't sound like a lot, and we're aiming for something like an hour a week

if we want to optimize our well-being. But a five-minute sauna session done three times a week is 15 minutes. That's still really good. That will give you the ability to then jump to seven and then jump to 10. Ideally, I like four times a week, 15 minutes post-workout. That's perfect for me. That helps me hit that 60 minute threshold I want. It helps me recover from each of the four workouts I do weekly. It helps me do what I call temptation bundling, which is bundling something I like doing, the sauna, with something I have to do, hard training.

And it makes both more palatable. But you can start really slow. Start with five to 10 minutes. And again, I would recommend, if you're in a position that you can buy your own sauna, definitely look into a company like Sisu. Sisu makes an incredible, incredible, incredible cedar sauna. I do have a discount available for you. If you want that, you can send me an email or you can DM me on Instagram. I can hook you up there. If you're not in a position where you can afford a high quality sauna, many gyms do have

saunas. Just make sure you check it out. Make sure they get hot enough Make sure they're legit and start incorporating this into your life If you have the time, I think it's fantastic and it's wonderful and it's one of the best things you can do for your health I hope this episode inspired you to share sauna. Try it get involved with other people do it socially. It's a wonderful tool It's been around for 2 plus years for a reason, guys. It has been around forever and I want more and more people to do it and do things that help them improve their health. Like listening to this podcast. If you're listening to this podcast, it's because you want to perform better, work better, feel better, move better, look better,

one of the above. And you can help other people do that by sharing it or by leaving a five-star rating and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify. If you did that for me, it would help more people find the podcast and I would be eternally grateful. So thanks so much for listening and I will catch you on the next one.