Dynamic Dialogue with Danny Matranga - 367: The Carnivore Diet - An Honest Review

Episode Date: March 26, 2024

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Hey, everybody, welcome in to another episode of the Dynamic Dialogue podcast. In this episode, I will be giving what I believe to be a fair and honest critique of the carnivore diet. The carnivore diet is a fairly popular dietary trend that was popularized more recently by people like Jordan Peterson, Joe Rogan, Paul Saladino, Sean Baker. And I won't tell you that it's worse than the standard American diet or the traditional Western diet, but I do have some critiques that I think are fair. And I'd like to discuss what we can learn about ourselves and the way we respond to eating from a more animalistic or you shouldn't

say animalistic, but animal based diet, as well as what could complement that. And my kind of twists and adjustments I would make to the carnivore diet to make it what I believe a healthier, more well-rounded omnivorous diet. So not a carnivore bashing session per se, but I do think that there are some very clear logical issues with eating this way. And I think you're leaving a lot on the table. So we'll discuss the diet writ large, what you can learn from it, what I would adjust. And hopefully this teaches you a ton about nutrition overall. We'll talk about protein, fiber, fat sources, time feeding windows, all kinds of different things today in this episode, so I hope you enjoy. This podcast has some awesome partners, and one of my favorite, of course, is Legion Athletics. Legion is my go-to supplement manufacturer for what I like to call

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are Legion's multivitamin and Legion's greens powder. Not only do these two products contain a ton of high quality vitamins and minerals, they also contain unique adaptogens like KSM 66 ashwagandha and reishi mushroom, which I like to take each and every day to promote my health. If you want to cover all your bases with a high quality protein, creatine post-workout or the ancillary micronutrient health stuff like greens, powders, and multivitamin, I encourage you to go over to legionathletics.com and check out using the promo code Danny. That'll save you 20% on your first order and you'll rack up points that you can use the same way as cash every time you use the code and you'll also be supporting the show. Okay, so getting into it, the carnivore diet, I can't tell you exactly where it comes from. And I don't think a lot of people can say the same about many of these

dietary protocols. Ketogenic dieting is quite old. The vegan diet is a little older. Couldn't tell you who started it. And honestly, I don't think it really matters. But what I do think matters is who popularized it, what it is, and what we can learn from it. And I actually think that the carnivore diet, and just to get very, very clear on what it is I'm talking about when I'm talking about a carnivore diet. A carnivore diet is an animal-based diet. It is a diet that consists entirely of meat and animal products. It specifically excludes plant products. That is, in essence, what the carnivore diet is. In a way, you can think of it as the anti or the opposite of the vegan diet. It has been said that it can aid with weight loss,

help with mood issues, regulate blood sugar. And none of that is frankly surprising to me at all. Because if you look at the way most people in the West eat, and you look at the foods that they choose to eat, if you tell them they can only eat animal foods and animal-based foods, they will have to eliminate so many different things from their diet, obviously with the exception of animal products. And yes, this will lead to some nutrient deficiencies and fiber deficiencies, which we'll talk about. But you'll also be ditching a lot of the ultra processed foods, alcohol, and high calorie beverages, with the exception perhaps of milk, that lead to so much chronic weight gain and health issues. I think a high protein diet is much healthier than a low-protein diet, but I do question whether or not it's sensible

to only eat animal products. Now, there's also some interesting claims made. Many people will be like, how is carnivore different from keto? Because keto and the ketogenic diet does have a ton of animal products, but typically a ketogenic diet is just a diet that's very high in protein or moderately high in protein, very high in dietary fat, low as can be in carbohydrates that are not, you know, let's say insoluble fiber. So a keto diet looks like high fat, moderate protein, and lots of fiber. And a carnivore diet looks like very high protein, very high fat. And I would say that the closest comparison we have to the ketogenic diet is the carnivore diet. You could even call the carnivore diet a basically vegetable-less keto. Now, my kind of take on this is any high protein diet, any diet high in nutrient dense animal

foods is going to help with body composition and going to help with weight loss. And most people engage with a dietary intervention for that reason. They want to lose weight. They want to look better. And I think that carnivore can actually help you do that. I just don't like what issues people are liable to assume from eating only animal foods. Okay. The pros of this diet for sure are in that it's high in protein. And there does seem to be a particularly high inclination amongst carnivore

diets for the consumption of ruminant meat. Think red meat, which is extremely nutrient dense. One of the most nutrient dense foods on the planet. If you think about some of the most nutrient dense foods, you probably think about things like blueberries, spinach, kale, sweet potatoes. There are plants that are loaded with vitamins and minerals, but in that same kind of grouping, classification of foods that come loaded with vitamins and minerals, we have to consider ruminant skeletal meat, fish like salmon, even organ meats like liver. And as much as I make fun of people and let's call them characters really like liver King, who are clearly just people acting in a nefarious and goofy way online to make money. Um, I don't, I don't think they contribute

much, uh, intellectually to our space. And I think on average, their desire to make money, um, and their desire to kind of capitalize on the confusion and nutrition really stands out to people who know exactly what it is they're doing, but it can look like they have good intentions to people who don't. Um, and I, I think maybe I might be a little bit aggressive in my character, character condemnation of some of these people, but part of me believes that a huge reason the carnivore diet exists is because of the carriers of it, the characters who carry it, the personalities, video, you know, hooks and edits and extreme, you know, tactics to garner attention to themselves and the way they eat, only to then sell you supplemental forms of organs. So as to, you know, make a little money on the back end of this highly questionable nutritional strategy. But baked into that diet is the very real fact

that animal protein is extremely nutritious, especially beef, especially fish, and especially organ meats. And you know, I'm somebody who enjoys chicken liver from time to time. I often will feed my dogs things like heart, things like liver, uh, things like, you know, uh, chicken feet, which aren't exactly like, Oh, I would not eat them. Um, but many cultures eat what is called nose to tail. And, you know, many predatory animals do the same and they're obligate carnivores in, in, in the wild. Like, you know, all felines are obligate carnivores. in the wild, like, you know, all felines are obligate carnivores. Most dogs, while they do eat non-meat, if, you know, you gave a wolf a pile of kibble, a pile of like rice or a pile of organ meat, I think we would know what they would pick. And there's something to be said for the

nutrient density of these animal proteins and these animal products, sure. It's also fair to note that the carnivore diet, because of its wildly restrictive kind of goalposts or guidelines, is devoid of ultra-processed foods, which are probably the worst thing that you could eat. These ultra-processed, hyper-palatable, designed-to-be-over-eaten foods. Now, I'm not bashing processed foods like whey protein or things that have been cooked or things that have been canned or jarred. The difference between a processed food and an ultra-processed food, in my mind, is that an ultra-processed food was made and designed to be overconsumed, explicitly designed to be over-consumed. And we can avoid a lot of that by opting for more single-ingredient whole foods, which I will say is kind of non-negotiable in the

carnivore diet. There aren't a lot of ultra-processed animal foods. It is a very, very much whole foods-based diet, which is a positive. Notice I'm circling around the positives first. And that's because I think we can learn a little bit from this diet. In a omnivorous whole food diet, if you could include ruminant meat a couple times a week, salmon a couple times a week, I love salmon, but you could substitute salmon for any cold water fatty fish that contains omega-3s. Even the occasional inclusion of organ meat that is prepared in a way that's safe, I would opt for chicken liver.

I find it to be the most tolerable and palatable of the organ meats, including those things in your diet. Let's say two to three times a week for the ruminant meat, two to three times a week for the salmon, and maybe one to two times a week for the ruminant meat, two to three times a week for the salmon, and maybe one to two times a week for these organ meats, it can be a wildly nutritious inclusion to a standard diet. But only eating these foods to me is a little bit, it's a little bit reckless. It's a little bit silly. I think it opens the door for nutrient deficiencies, especially things like fiber, which we'll talk quite a bit about. But I also think it's a little bit of performance art, if you will. I know 95% of the people that I know who do

carnivore are males who are, let's say, outspoken in their conservative political affiliation. And I have found that that, it is, I am of the opinion thatlling of like liberal vegans who many of whom were female, but not all. And so it's almost like this thing was born of a frustration for internet vegans. And so I'm sick of these internet vegans who are dunking all over me for eating animals. So I am going to reverse own the libs and I'm going to own the libs by going carnivore. And I truly believe that that is a huge reason this diet exists. And I posted something on threads and it got torn to shreds because I guess there are many vegans who are actually conservative, which was my short-sightedness. I don't know the political leanings of all vegans, and I should have been more thoughtful in how it was that I worded this, but I basically said,

I've never met a conservative vegan, and I've never met a liberal carnivore. Prove to me that this is not a political extension of your diet. And I got a lot of conservative vegans who are mad, but I didn't find a single liberal carnivore. And I do think if you look at the people who generally push or, you know, um, are the most active proponents of this diet, you know, Jordan Peterson, Michaela Peterson, Joe Rogan come to mind and say what you will about Joe. I love his podcast. I used to like it a lot more, but the dude has become for lack of a better term, fairly conservative or fairly right of center. And you know, when I was listening in 2010, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, he was pretty left of center on a lot of stuff. And I do think that

Joe got unfairly labeled, uh, you know, conservative, you know, he got smashed because of some of his beliefs on COVID, which turned out to be, you know, maybe slightly half baked, but not entirely bad. But he was, uh, he was a target of the ideological left, somebody to drag. And I don't know how you could live through that and not double down on your takes or not feel frustrated or not feel like you're being attacked. But a lot of the people who are proponents of carnivore are on this pseudo-macho ideological right. And there's nothing wrong with that. But I do think this diet has a particularly high appeal for dudes, and particularly the audiences that are exposed to it are mostly dudes. And as a dude who loves to eat a lot of meat myself, I have known and

noticed in looking at my own lab work that if I eat a ton of ruminant meat, a ton of fat, a ton of animal products, particularly animal products, high in saturated fat, and I don't have adequate fiber intake, then my HDL, my good cholesterol does go up a little bit, but my LDL, my bad cholesterol also goes up more than I would like, including some of my LDL subtypes. And it's not fair to say that eating meat and eating foods that are very high in saturated fat will independently raise these things. I cannot say that for sure. What's going on, guys? Taking a break from this episode to tell you a little bit about my coaching company, Core Coaching Method. More specifically, our app-based training. We partnered with Train

Heroic to bring app-based training to you using the best technology and best user interface possible. You can join either my Home Heroes team, or you can train from home with bands and dumbbells, or Elite Physique, which is a female bodybuilding-focused program where you can train at the gym with equipments designed specifically to help you develop strength, as well as the glutes, hamstrings, quads, and back. I have more teams coming planned for a variety of different fitness levels. But what's cool about this is when you join these programs, you get programming that's updated every single week, the sets to do, the reps to do, exercise tutorials filmed by me with me and my team. So you'll get my exact coaching expertise as to how to perform the

movement, whether you're training at home or you're training in the gym. And again, these teams are somewhat specific. So you'll find other members of those communities looking to pursue similar goals at similar fitness levels. You can chat, ask questions, upload form for form review, ask for substitutions. It's a really cool training community and you can try it completely free for seven days. Just click the link in the podcast description below. Can't wait to see you in the core coaching collective, my app-based training community. Back to the show. I will just say that as a dude who likes to eat a lot of meat, the inclusion of fruits, legumes, whole grains, and especially cruciferous vegetables that are high in fiber really helps me keep my blood lipids in check.

And I have seen some crazy shit on the internet from carnivores entirely disregarding their metabolic panels, entirely disregarding the current levels of their HDL, LDL, chylomicron, LDL subparticles, because they are of the belief that these things do not matter. They're not correlated with issues that might be specific to cardiovascular disease because they're metabolically healthy and they work out and that data's old and people don't understand it. And if you eat cholesterol, it doesn't raise your cholesterol. You hear some crazy stuff. But I'm always a little bit concerned because men are the cohort of people most likely to suffer a

cardiovascular event, especially men who have dysregulated blood lipids who might be overweight. And those tend to be the people who are drawn to this diet because of the people that they listen to. And I think a animal-based or animal-centric diet could be smart, but you have to have enough of the right stuff added to it. And I think my first major critique of carnivore is the idea that it's completely okay to just avoid plants, that plants might be dangerous because they have defense chemicals, and that fiber, one of the key components of plant foods, is useless because it makes up the bulk of your stool. So if you poop it out, what good could it be? And I was talking to my buddy, Dr. Joey Munoz the other day about

some of the benefits of fiber, one of which is binding to bile, a byproduct of the gallbladder and the excretion of that bile. Uh, and therefore the regulation of cholesterol because of how bile is so cholesterol rich. And so it's like, if I were a carnivore eater or I wanted to be an animal based eater, one of the first things I would focus on isn't the avoidance of fiber. It would actually be the strategic inclusion of fiber to allow me to fit in more of these nutrient dense animal products. I would like call it carnivore plus, you know, I've noticed some of the biggest carnivore proponents are all of a sudden, oh, well, I'm actually carnivore plus fruit. And that kind

of makes me, hmm, I find that to be a little bit dubious, right? It makes me wonder how much I can trust them. Like we know that liver King lied a lot about his steroid abuse. And it, and I almost, it almost makes me wonder if, you know, when the cameras are off is homeboy slamming back sweet potato fries and broccoli. I doubt it, but it wouldn't surprise me to find out that a lot of these people who are carnivore characters, so to speak, have a more omnivorous diet in private because they've all started to slowly let fruit come into play saying that, oh, well, fruit was designed to be eaten in a way that other plant materials weren't. And the truth is, I think you got to get the fiber from somewhere. And so if you're carnivore plus fruit or you're carnivore with strategic vegetables

or you eat mostly animal products and include fibrous foods here and there, I think that's way better than avoiding them for, uh, what I think are objectively half-baked reasons, right? Like I understand that some people are sensitive to insoluble fiber. Maybe they have IBS, maybe they have IBD, maybe they are particularly sensitive to certain plants. They have an allergy. And so the removal of these things from the diet makes them feel better. That's totally fair. But I would argue that just arbitrarily removing these things from your diet, that's a little risky. That's something that I would try to not do. I would make sure that I'm getting lots of protein, eating a lot of these nutrient-dense animal products, but I'm including my fiber

because I know that for women about 20 to 25 grams and men about 30 to 35 grams of fiber a day is going to help reduce my blood sugar. Carnivore will do that as well. Anything that is not the standard Western diet is going to reduce your blood sugar. It's going to help to stiffen stool and increase regularity. It's going to lower my LDL cholesterol. That is the bad cholesterol. It's been shown to reduce the risk of colorectal cancer and high amounts of animal protein are associated with increased prevalence of colorectal cancer. So it's something that would be really, really important, right? Like I would be really, really, really careful with my fiber intake if I was eating a ton

of red meat, processed meat. I think the two work together synergistically to reduce some of the risks associated with high meat consumption, which a lot of times are overblown because people cite processed meat consumption. They don't cite the consumption of salmon or grass-fed beef or whatever. Another interesting thing about fiber is a 2017 review of studies found that people eating a high-fiber diet had a significantly reduced risk of cardiovascular disease and lower mortality risk from cardiovascular conditions. Most of those conditions affect men. Most carnivore dieters are men.

That is something that is concerning to me. I think that men are particularly susceptible to this diet. It's kind of a pseudo macho. You want to be a caveman. You want to be primal, eat a T-bone steak, fuck that stupid pussy ass kale. You don't want that. Like Rex Kondo. I don't know if you guys remember him from Napoleon Dynamite, but like the dude with the red, white, and blue pants. That's what I think of when I think of like a carnivore dieter. It's like almost a caricature. And I'm like, okay, I blue pants. That's what I think of when I think of like a carnivore dieter. It's like almost a caricature. And I'm like, okay, I love it. Lots of healthy, high protein stuff.

Would it kill you to throw an avocado in there? Would it kill you to throw an orange or an apple or, you know, a spinach salad that has a fucking T-bone on top? I don't care. These things, I think, complement each other very well. And I certainly wouldn't want to do carnivore for 20 years only to develop cardiovascular disease because I didn't include fiber and benefit from fiber. And the arguments that I've heard for not having fiber are that we don't use it. It doesn't have nutrients. We just poop it out. And to me, that's crazy because we also know that you can reduce the risk of hiatal hernias, GERD, diverticulitis, and hemorrhoids, which if you've ever had a hemorrhoid, they're

not fun, from fiber intake. Fiber intake is correlated with a lot of positive things and low fiber intake is correlated with a lot of negative things. And I just feel that the benefits of protein and fiber together synergistically are huge. And so an animal-based diet, go for it. An animal-only diet, I don't know. And you have other nutrient deficiencies that are super important to acknowledge, like vitamin C, vitamin E, fiber, multiple different antioxidants, right? We know that we're going to have high amounts of saturated fat and therefore LDL cholesterol might rise. Might, I use the term might because cholesterol is influenced by a lot

of different factors, including weight, activity, and genetics. Obviously there's the environmental effect of eating an animal only diet. And I am completely aware of the cognitive dissonance required for me to like have my dogs, to love my dogs, to be like, Oh my God, I would never want anything bad to happen to my dogs. But like, I'll eat pork and I'll eat beef, which are, you know, animals that are probably as sentient, if not more sentient than the dogs I have. And I know that it's kind of crazy. Um, and it is a level of intellectual gymnastics. And that is something that like a lot of internet vegans will dunk on you for. And it's true. Like it is, I do give myself a pass when I eat those things. And it's like, man, if I had to look a cow in the eyes before I ate it, it would probably change some things. And I know that there's been like a ton of griping about the, um, you know,

lab meat or the, you know, uh, not the beyond burger, but like the actual, we're growing meat in a lab. Like what the fuck? I mean, if we could get that right and it had a great nutritional profile and like maybe they genetically edit it so that it doesn't have any negative effect on your blood lipids, man, I probably would opt into eating that shit because I would feel better about not causing harm to animals. But now, you know, and that's not to say that a vegan diet or a diet rich in plants or some of the agricultural practices required to harvest plants doesn't cause damage to small, uh, animals like insects and, and things that might live in and amongst the crops that are being harvested.

I don't think there's any way to feed 8 billion people globally without doing a fuck ton of damage. We just have too many people. Uh, and, you know, some people are, no, we don't have too many people, the population and the negative birth rate. We're going to die. Species going to give out. Uh, yeah, I'll believe it when I fucking see it. I, I, I'm, I've never been a huge believer in this like population collapse issue that has become like, you know, popular amongst the ideological right. Again, they, you know, the, the population bomb, the idea that there were too many people was actually wrong. And the truth is that we need more people. I do not feel that we need more people. I feel like 8 billion is plenty good enough. And I understand that some countries have declining birth rates and that presents an

economic issue for them down the road, like China, Japan, et cetera. But in general, I think environmentally, 8 billion people is about all the world can sustain right now. And 8 billion people who only ate meat would probably be a problem in the same way that like 8 billion people who only ate plants would probably be a problem. So it's like, Hey, let's do a thoughtful omnivorism. Shall we say, um, I kind of like that. And, um, you know, one thing that I, another critique I have of the carnivore diet is it is a little fringe and it, again, in, in its performative nature, it's kind of a gateway to eating certain weird stuff. Like

see a lot of people like happily eating raw organ meats and like posting videos about it in like raw milk and posting videos about it. And that's cool. Right. But like cooking food and pasteurization exists because eating raw fucking animal products that are not stored properly can legit kill you. And I would be so fucking embarrassed if somebody watched one of my videos and decided to eat like a raw beef testicle and died. I'd be like, wow, good job, Danny. You fucking killed somebody because you tried to be a caveman on the internet. Like that, that is not, I don't know who that serves.

And I don't know how the performative carnivorism of like the liver kings of the world is benefiting people. I think it's better to just have a, you know, intellectual omnivorous approach to food. I personally think that that works better. Now, a lot of people, and this is where Michaela and Jordan Peterson have kind of popularized the carnivore diet is, Hey, it's an elimination diet. Like I have nothing else worked for me. And if nothing else worked for you, try carnivore. And I always find like my bullshit meter goes off when people are like, nothing worked for me because I've coached thousands of people. And a lot of them say, Oh, I've tried everything. Nothing worked. I'm like, well, did you try

everything for more than a week? Cause if you tried everything for more than a week, I'd get you. But if you tried it for like two days, I'm not going to buy it. And I think a lot of people have issues. They just haven't found something they can stick to, or they haven't committed to something that they can stick to. And if carnivore is the thing you can stick to, and it provides a gateway for the elimination of ultra processed foods or foods that are causing you issues. Awesome. And there aren't a lot of people, honestly, in my opinion, who have tremendous issues with the ingestion of regular animal products. I do think that most people can handle that fine. But I think there are better ways to practice an elimination diet. And I think that there are better ways to have a high protein diet.

And if you want to have an animal based diet, I would just be sure to include more fruits, more vegetables, more whole grains, more legumes, um, than maybe, you know, some of these characters on the internet, but it doesn't mean that that has to be most of your diet. I do think most of your diet can be animal products. Um, but I think to only do that, it just leaves too many holes. And it just personally, I think it's really unsustainable. And I think that it would be so much better to complement an animal-based diet with these foods to fill in those gaps, even if you didn't want to make those foods the bulk of your diet. So there is my kind of short form critique of the carnivore diet

guys. I hope this gave you some education and a little bit of insight into how I look at nutrition. I'm all about what I would call intelligent omnivorism. I want between 0.6 to 1 gram per pound of protein every single day. I want lots of omega-3s from usually cold water fatty fish. I want my monounsaturated fats for my avocados. I want fiber and nutrients that come from things like sweet potatoes, spinach, broccoli, yams, regular potatoes, rice, oatmeal. I love fruit as a snack, as a dessert, as something tasty to fuel my workouts. And I have found that 25 to 30 grams of fiber and a gram of protein per pound of body weight is all I need to have abs year round and stay healthy if I lift four days a week. And that to me is going to also limit my risk of disease compared to only eating plants or only eating animals. So that is my take on it, guys. I hope you enjoyed the episode. If you did, be sure to hit that subscribe button. Follow me on Apple Podcasts.

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