Ear Biscuits with Rhett & Link - 229: Our Experiences After The Lost Years Series | Ear Biscuits Ep.229

Episode Date: February 24, 2020

The episodes are out, and the responses are in! Listen to R&L discuss their experiences after the revealing all in their Lost Years series in this episode of Ear Biscuits! -- (1:04) - our life after the Lost Years series (7:07) - the process behind getting the stories out and people interacting with them (23:13) - Mythical Beasts sharing stories (27:44) - interaction with an old friend (35:48) - an unanticipated response (39:49) - thanks for all of the positive responses (49:24) - what we’re going to do with this momentum (51:41) - a tweet from a Mythical Beast (52:41) - Link finally does it (54:52) - L on giving love (56:59) - why we told this story (1:02:36) - a heartwarming conversation on the Discord channel (1:07:23) - the most important thing (1:09:31) - L’s rec To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Welcome to Ear Biscuits, I'm Rhett. And I'm Link. This week at the round table of dim lighting, we're discussing what's it like after you put out a series like the Lost Years series. What has our experience been like since sharing everything we've shared and now fielding a lot of responses

and including a lot of questions because that's what we ask you guys to do is tell us, use hashtag your biscuits, let us know how you're processing it and if you have any questions for us. So we knew we were going to do what we were calling a follow-up episode and this is it. At least this is one of them.

Yeah, I would say this is one of them. Yeah, let's just say it's one of them. And we may get to some questions, but I think one of the conversations we've been having is, as we've processed how we're processing the reaction, it kinda just led to the decision to take today's episode in a slightly different direction, but I'm not saying it won't end up

in a place of answering questions, but we'll talk about that. One quick thing we do wanna cover is if you're listening to this, you might know that the podcast comes out every Monday in audio form, but through the power of video, we are also recording every single episode with a video camera, have been for quite some time.

And then the following Sunday, so a little bit less than a week after the podcast comes out, the video version comes out at youtube.com slash Ear Biscuits. So if you wanna see us talk and not just hear us talk, if you're like listening and you're like, man, they're referring to a photo, or man, I don't know exactly how to take what he's saying.

Maybe the look on his face would help me understand it. Oh, he was actually smiling when he said that. Right. Yeah, he was crying at that point. Well, and some people- If you wanna see us smile and cry, then go to the Ear Biscuits channel on YouTube. And I also made reference to my hair during my episode

where I told my story and then- But you're done with that. Regretfully, I watched a little bit of that and I was like, well, that was an interesting decision. I'm not saying I'm not gonna do it again. But we're not gonna talk about it now. No, we're not gonna talk about it now. Because it's not the thing we're talking about.

I'm not even gonna tell you what my hair looks like today because you'll have to watch it on YouTube to figure that out. That's not why they're here, man. No, well, it's at least.4% of the listening audience is here for my hair. But that means that 99.6% are here for other things. Like maybe your hair. My hat and my jacket.

You wanna get a load of my hat and my jacket? Link has on a hat and a jacket. So do you. You can almost see it. How do you wanna get into this? Because I do think it's, you know, the brief conversation we had last night. I called you in a panic. You called me in a panic.

No, you didn't call me in a panic, but you were like, hey, we should talk about how we're gonna approach this thing because I think that's a good place to start because we were each individually pulling questions and comments that we wanted to address or respond to, at least that was our plan. And it turns out independently,

we were having our own struggles with how we wanted to have this discussion today. Right, so when I called you last night, I had just gotten out of therapy. He's busting out the barn doors. And I, you know, I don't know if your experience, those of you who go to therapy, I mean, for me, I always go in thinking, why am I doing this?

Like, you know, I got nothing to say. I got nothing to talk about. What am I gonna do? Like, you know, I got nothing to say. I got nothing to talk about. What am I gonna do? Just make stuff. Like I always lull myself back into this place where I kind of just feel like it's unnecessary. And then by the end of it, I'm like, this is why I go to therapy.

Well, as a side note, this brings up something very pertinent that I'm not gonna talk about right now, but I will talk about later in this episode. Continue. Oh, wow, that was a tease. And I, so the first thing I started talking about was,

Jessie and I had had like a, basically a fight about, you know, of course we're redoing the pool area, and so this is typical cliche, married couple construction project arguments situation. But I kinda had this sense that there was something going on beneath my concern about the construction project that was fueling the intensity with which I was arguing about this and standing up for things like,

you know, where grills will be and, or where grill will be. I'm not like you, I'm only gonna have one grill. I'm not doing two grills. You're already losing. But it's a, oh, it's a nice grill. It might be one grill better than both of your grills put together. Well, I think you're- At least that's what

I'm going for. You are waving the white flag at the design phase and I'm all for it. So I was like, you know, I've been feeling like kind of tired and sort of worn out and it isn't like, we're not- Working hard. Well, I wasn't gonna say, we're not working as hard as it can get for us.

Like we're not touring. We don't have a major project besides our ongoing things that we're doing, but I'm like, and just usually I would be like, have a lot of energy, but I'm like, I feel a little bit beat down and I started trying to process that. And that was when I started realizing that this, the process of our stories going out there

and then them sort of people interacting with them, interacting with the stories, interacting with us, it's been a very emotionally draining thing. Now, I wanna clarify that, it's also been awesome. Just because it's been emotionally draining doesn't mean, it's also been awesome. Just because it's been emotionally draining doesn't mean that it hasn't been great. I mean, the amount of encouragement that we've received

from people on both ends of the spectrum, regardless of whether or not they, you know, people who started not being a Christian then became a Christian, people who were a Christian who aren't a Christian, people who still are Christian. No matter what your point of reference is for the story, we've received so much encouragement and just kind messages and thoughtful comments.

And that's been great, hearing people's stories. But for me, the thing that I realized I was kind of focusing on, this is not too surprising, was the small percentage of people who I kind of felt disapproved by. Disapproved of. Okay. By them.

And you know, to kind of, I don't wanna go. You're talking critical responses? Yeah, well, people who, I mean, there's some responses that are just not critical and not thoughtful. And those are really easy to just be like, okay, I'm not gonna let that affect me. But there are some that are critical and thoughtful.

And the way my personality interacts with that is I just have this like, I get immediately defensive, right? And so what I wanna do is I wanna come on the show and I wanna go through the questions and the critiques and I wanna enter into some sort of like defense of my position. I wanna justify the conclusions that I've come to, right?

But maybe beyond that, there was also people who kinda did like a takedown essentially of like my story or whatever. And my story was kinda easier to do a takedown essentially of like my story or whatever. And my story was kind of easier to do a takedown of because I kind of presented like these, this very specific process that I went through from an intellectual standpoint. So people can kind of key in on things and be like,

well, here's the thing I take issue with here. And here's the thing I take issue with here. And then there were people interacting with the people who had those kind of critical responses who didn't know who I was, didn't know who you were, didn't listen to the podcast, but immediately were interpreting me through the lens of this person who's being critical.

And I felt, and this isn't one person, there's a number of people who have done this. And I felt super defensive because I felt like I was being misrepresented, right? And so I just realized that, and I didn't even understand that I was dealing with this until I started talking it out. And just this idea of wanting to be like,

well, this is what you, I didn't say that, or you just said this about me, or you assume this about my process, or you're being critical of me and the way that I thought about this or the resource that I suggested and I have all these answers that I wanna get into. But then I very quickly just started realizing that

I just don't want this podcast to devolve into like a defense of the position that we have, you know, the conclusions that we have come to for a number of reasons. Number one. I'm most curious about what the, if you're gonna number them, what are your personal reasons? Because I know, yeah, I agree that one of the reasons

is that it's not, that's not what this podcast is. Yeah, right. Well, I was just gonna say yes, this is not what the podcast is. It's like this isn't some defense of any, you know, this isn't a place to come on and defend and conjecture because that's not what everybody's here for but also, we're not qualified to do that.

You know, I am not an expert in any of the stuff that I talked about. I'm just an interested lay person who was, who had their faith basically turned over by just looking into some of these things, but I'm not then qualified to then tell you what you should think about it. Because when I start thinking about my process,

like it wasn't easy to revisit a lot of those things because sometimes you're like, well, in the past, I was very interested in this particular thing and I looked it up and I was convinced of something. But if you ask me, why were you convinced? I can't immediately recall why I was convinced. A lot of times you'll become convinced of something. Yeah.

But the specific reasons you were convinced, you're like, I gotta go kind of read that resource again to get back to that place because that's just the way the human mind works, right? Doesn't mean that I didn't come to a conclusion and didn't move to something else. But anyway, the idea of getting into this like tit for tat, defending a position, it just felt like it would be very unhealthy

for me personally. But it also felt like I was just very quickly just kind of moving into this place that it was about me and it was about my ego, which is a consistent problem for me, right? I mean, I talked a little bit about being a three on the Enneagram and one of the weaknesses of the three in being an achiever and a performer

is you want everyone's approval. And so the idea of throwing something out there, throwing a bomb out there like we did and being like this sacred thing that is the most important thing in so many people's lives and was the most important thing in our life, we've discarded it for the most part. That is going to, that's throwing a rock

into a hornet's nest and some of the hornets will come out and sting you. Yeah and I just realized that I'm just not, I wasn't, I haven't been dealing with that in a healthy way because my response to that has been, well, let me tell you why I am justified. Let me prove to you why I was right about this thing. And it's like, no, A, that wouldn't be effective.

It's not like that's gonna change anybody's mind. But B, that wouldn't be good for me. Yeah, and I think that as we've talked about on this podcast and like I just said, this is not, that's not how we've built this thing. This podcast, and I was really glad when you called it to hear you say that because I didn't know why when I was looking back at the questions that I was,

I was kind of stuck or kind of troubled by it, but that helped make sense of it that, yeah, this podcast is a conversation between us sharing our experiences and our perspectives on things with each other. And I think if, whatever people wanna take from that as a listener is they're free to do that.

But if we start turning towards the microphones and the cameras and we start saying, a little bit of that made sense. It's like, hey, these are the resources. If you're interested in some of the things that either one of us talked about, these are the books you can resources if you're interested in some of the things that either one of us talked about, you know, these are the books you can read if you're interested in that, if you're into it,

but you're not gonna sit here and go through all of these arguments about, okay, now let's do a podcast dedicated to Jesus and all of the takeaways from our research about that and the conversations we've had and let's start doing something that's like, that's challenging or that has an agenda or puts out a specific perspective that then we're hoping to change people's minds.

I think it's more of, I mean, even when we would, in previous episodes when we would just give relational advice or life advice and half the time it would just be for the fun of it. We would often say, listen, we're not experts at this. We're just sharing our lives and our perspectives. Take it with caution and sometimes with grain of salt. I mean, we're just people.

We're friends having a conversation that we welcome you to be a part of it. But we don't wanna be prescriptive and we don't wanna start arguing on a soapbox about anything. So yeah, it started to feel like it was, the temptation was there to be very defensive with some of the questions. And yeah, because of the nature of your story,

it generated a lot more of those questions that weren't personal in nature, but they were intellectual in nature or they were philosophical or just belief oriented. They were separate from you as a person. And it does invite those kinds of conversations and I think having, starting to address those now would just perpetuate that and that's not what we're after.

Yeah. For me, I think that, I felt a lot more, I mean you felt, you talked about how you felt relief and how there was a lot of positive ripple effects from this podcast too and you can talk more about that but I would say, I mean, that's predominantly what I've experienced.

Definitely the relief of getting it out there and I knew it but I didn't fully appreciate how sharing so much of our conversations at this desk, at this table, but not sharing that had kind of really eaten away at me. It really made me uncomfortable to seem like I was being real but then I wasn't being, it wasn't like a full disclosure so I think I have experienced some lightness associated with getting that out there.

And like you said, I definitely did as well. It wasn't until I started thinking about this follow up, which we were like, ask us questions, make comments and we'll respond to them. And then I just started finding myself kind of keying in on the critical ones or the gotcha questions. People asking a question because they think that

by me trying to answer it, they're gonna get me, they're gonna catch me in some illogical thought process. Right, whereas with my story, it was so, it was told in a way that like, if people were critical of me, it would have been critical, told in a way that like if people were critical of me, that it would have been critical, it could have been taken as a personal attack of a personal experience, not just some external assessment

of a belief about something. Well, and I think that that's the thing that's difficult for me is that even though I kind of told a story which was like, these are the things that I read or learned that then made me question what I had always known, some people interacted with the points, right? Some people might be like,

I think your conclusion here was incorrect or I think you've given too much credence to these critical thinkers, people who are critical of the Bible versus people who believe it, whatever. But the majority of people find some sort of fault with me, right? Well, it was something in your process,

something in your pride, something in the way that you see things, you ultimately want it out, you just didn't know it. Like trying to find some way to explain it based on some deficiency in me, right? Now, first of all, you may be right about that. But this kind of beside the point, what I'm talking about right now is

it's difficult to not take it personally even though it's difficult for people to not make it personal. And I'm not saying, oh. And it was your personal process. I think the things that you said can be separated from you, but for you, they weren't. Yeah, well, I wanna be clear.

I'm not complaining about this. Like I expected, I actually expected it to be much worse than it was. Like I said, the vast majority of people, whether they're Christians or not, have been very gracious. I think that the thing that I was reminded of is just how big a part my ego plays in anything that I talk about, right?

It's just like, I'm obviously, I was trying to be as honest as I can when I tell my story, but I also kind of want to be the hero of my own story. Don't we all? And in telling the story, I'm also telling it in a way that justifies my decisions and my conclusions.

And there's really no other way to live life in one sense, but that can be also done in a very unhealthy way. And we're gonna take a break here in a second, but I wanna talk about how that tendency to basically find personal fault with someone who's deconstructing is something that we relate to really personally as well by telling a little story.

What was the last thing that filled you with wonder that took you away from your desk or your car in traffic? Well, for us, and I'm gonna guess for some of you, that thing is... Anime! Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect.

It's a weekly news show. With the best celebrity guests. And hot takes galore. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. In terms of my experience, I would say, I mean, I shared my story for me.

I shared, you know, when I reached the conclusion, it's like, I want to be hopeful, I want to do the work to remain engaged in a faith journey and not just to be, not just sit on my laurels and go on with my day to day life and there's so much that I could get distracted by that I would just never get back to it. I actually feel like sharing my story was a big,

this was a big part of my journey because it just helped me process things for myself. And I would say kind of jumpstart or kind of reinvigorate my own process because for a number of years, I just kind of put it on a shelf. It's like I just, I'm kind of stuck and I don't feel, but then the thing that I started to realize

as I prepped it and then as I shared it started to come out and even afterward as I've talked to people about it, started to come out and even afterward, as I've talked to people about it, I've really benefited from understanding myself even more. And I can get into, I'd like to get into some of those details, but at the same time at a parallel path, the fact that again, secondarily, it was something that resonated,

either your story or my story or both of them resonated with so many people that we didn't ask people, I don't know, maybe we, I don't think we asked for people to share their stories. I think we acknowledged that it was happening along the way but I didn't anticipate that a lot of people would just use it as an opportunity to start to share their own stories

to the extent that they have and share how they related to different aspects of what we had to say. And I was just, you know, I would just, I didn't know how to, I would just heart a lot of these things because there were so many and I just, I wanted to reply and say something, but practically, it just wasn't really possible.

But I just wanted to say that my experience was just being blown away with how our stories were helpful. Because when you, when you hear somebody share something and there were people saying, I just, I don't feel alone now that you've shared. And again, not just me, if you're responding to you sometimes, me sometimes, but it just means,

it means so much that people were moved by it to not feel alone, to be moved to share their own stories and just to start that conversation with their friends on the internet and off the internet. It was, I was like, wow, I actually think that it's helped people. And I really didn't know that that would happen.

I don't, maybe it seems obvious in this internet culture of sharing that's like, yeah, when you share and when you take a risk, it helps people. But I never associated that with what we were considering doing. And so I just remember being in my bed one night and I was just looking through all the stories and I was just overwhelmed with gratitude

that it did make a difference. And again, I didn't know that was gonna happen. That was not, I don't think I would have said, I'm doing this to help people. I think, you know, I was doing it as, because I felt ready to do it and I felt like it was part of my process. So I guess I was surprised,

maybe more than you would have thought I would have been. Well, I wanna talk about how I interacted with all that and how that, while it was helpful, it also increased my anxiety. I wanna get to that because I think there's a whole conversation to have there, but I don't wanna skip over the interactions that we've had with our old friend.

Yeah, so there's, I mean. We talked about him a little bit in one of our stories. Maybe your story. I can't remember but there's, yeah, there's been a number of people that we've reconnected with but when we mentioned him, we were talking about how we were on the other, we were still, we were on the front side of it

and he was kinda going through the process that we've described. To recap, so this is a very close friend of ours growing up who was a fellow very strong Christian who in the early 2000s basically started to have somewhat of a deconstruction. And we reconnected with him. Well, first of all, since our deconstruction,

we've connected with him and we know where each other are at, but we told him, we're sharing our stories publicly, we'd love for you to listen or whatever, so we've been talking with him since then. He was able to uncover some of our old correspondence when Link and I were getting ready to go into the ministry to work with Campus Crusade to do evangelism training.

And we were running some things by him as someone who was in a different place. But then what he was doing, after we spent some time with him, he was going back and like writing in his journal about the interactions that he was having with us. And in reading so many of the responses to our story, especially the responses from-

Oh, you're talking about public responses. Yeah, yeah, so reading public responses to our stories and specifically responses from people who are, you know, basically their only response to what we said is, this is just very sad. There's no like, it's basically just like, I'm praying for you guys, this is very sad, I hope you find the faith, those kinds of responses.

It was very, very reminiscent of the way that we interacted with him. And it just reminds me how much where we were at in life and what we were doing was informing our responses. Because we were literally raising support to go on staff full time. And I had probably, you were in the very middle of it, I was coming to the end, this giant sort of left turn

in your life where you've thrown, you've left your previous job and you're putting it all on the line for Jesus. And then you go and you talk to a friend who you really respect and we probably, we had the deepest sort of intellectual conversations about our faith, even in high school with this guy. Like this, you know, we talked about things

on as deep of a level as we could at the time. And in high school, I remember those conversations starting. And so it was just always kind of had this sort of philosophical thing going with him. And then for him to have these really deep questions that were kind of tearing at the roots of our faith. I remember me and you talking to him and then talking to each other and it was just like,

I think the way you described it in a text to him the other day was like, we just had, there was zero openness to what you were going through. There was a complete inability to turn the questions that you were asking yourself onto ourselves because there was way too much at stake at the time. Yeah. What are we gonna suddenly stop raising support

and tell everybody who just gave us all this money that, oh, by the way, guys, I'm really questioning the foundations of this whole thing. It's like, I'm not gonna go there. So I'm not even gonna allow that thought to enter my mind. Yeah, so I, my recollection was we were, you know, we were as polite as we could to be in trying to help, help him turn a corner to double back. And that was it, you know, it was like,

cause that's what we had, that's what we were supposed to do, you know? So it wasn't an actual conversation. And he, you know, he felt that, he knew that. He was also gracious because in his journal entry, he basically that, he knew that. He was also gracious because in his journal entry, he basically said, I completely get where these guys are coming from because it's where I came from. And that's why, and so.

Yeah, I think he said that he did to others what we were doing to him. And so all that to say that any sort of dismissive comments that we're getting about our story, which again is a very small minority, it's more than justified. We deserve every bit of it because we've done it.

We've been there and it's that, and I remember thinking about him and thinking about, I was like, where did you go wrong? You know, like, I think he hung out with the wrong people. I was trying to figure out, I was trying to get to the bottom of why he, someone who had a very real, strong, informed faith was suddenly questioning it and I was just like, where did he screw up?

Let me find that. Let me find where he screwed up. I never could figure it out. So anyway, I just wanted to acknowledge that, that we've done that and we've been there. Yeah, so I think there are people who are coming to our defense when they see people say, it makes me sad.

And I saw someone make the point, I don't think people realize when they say that it makes them sad when someone else shares their personal story that that's manipulative. But I get it. I understand why it makes, if you have a certain worldview, it made me sad before.

Yeah, 100%. For other people. But I do think it's helpful. I think it's helpful. And listen, I'm not saying this, but I think this could be, this could help those of you who have said this is sad to understand why it's not, it's difficult to not take that as an insult.

Because if I were to say, you know, it's sad that you've based your life on something that's not true. That's offensive. That's an insult, right? To say that to you. I'm not saying that, but if I were to say that, that would be offensive, it would be insulting, it would be dismissive.

And so I think the same thing is it's sad that you guys are moving away from this thing that I know to be true. And it's sad that your eternal destiny is in question. I understand where you're coming from and according to your worldview, this is pretty much the only response that you could have. Right.

But to communicate it in that way and not understand why that's insulting and dismissive and people are gonna perceive it in that way, hopefully I've shown a little bit of light on that. I think another thing that we didn't anticipate was that people, not that people are gonna come out of the woodwork in order to text or email or try to Facebook message us even though

we're not on Facebook anymore about things is, well, it's not that that surprises, but that they would then reach out to, you know, our wives or our extended families. And so that was something that I don't know, I don't know if it would have changed how or if we would have done it, but it's not something that we specifically anticipated. You know, it's like, I mean,

Christy would get a bunch of messages from people she hadn't heard from in a while. And I know they come from a place of really caring, but it's like, then all of a sudden, now she's got a field questions from people that are like, it was basically like, are you okay, are you guys okay? And I was like, Christy, you know, the thing that I'm realizing is that it was two years,

when I tell the story of us in the minivan, like in tears, not going into church and trying to figure out where we were and where we each were and all those type of things and the anguish from that particular story I told, well, that was two years ago. It's like we're in a different place than that. We're not sitting, we don't have the minivan anymore.

And even if we did, we're not sitting, we don't have the minivan anymore. And even if we did, we're not sitting in it weeping every Sunday, you know, we're in a much healthier, healthy is not the right word, but like, we're in a good place. And I don't, you know, and people, when you share this story, and if the last time they talked to you was three, four,

five, six, seven years ago, it's like, well, they don't know when that was. So it's like, did this just happen? And really the first thing Christy learned was the first question she would ask in response to the people that she would engage with was, well, have you actually listened to the podcast? Because a lot of people, they would hear from someone

and they would have concern, but they wouldn't have listened to it themselves. And so that's an important point because I'm not gonna engage if you don't really know all the details already. I can't sit here and retell you all of this on Facebook. So even from a purely practical standpoint, it's kind of like there's a handful

or maybe more than a handful of like, oh, we gotta, I find myself in a conversation with someone and it's like they're bringing some assumptions to the table that like we're in trouble. Yeah. And that's not the case. Yeah, I didn't anticipate, I mean, I should have thought about it

but I was thinking about a lot of things leading up to us talking and I did not anticipate, given the nature of a small town and a community of people who, at least in the circles that my family runs in back home, it's like, you know, we're talking about a Christian circle of people. Yeah.

A very well connected group of people. Both my family and Jesse's family. So it's like the amount of people who have kinda come up to them saying things, making assumptions, again, having not listened to the podcast in many cases. Yeah, I feel like I could have prepared them better. I feel bad about that. I think that's been a source of some anxiety for me as well

as I've thought about this. Cause you know, they knew that we were gonna talk about it to some degree, some more than others. They're back there on kind of the front lines. It's like we've been dealing with a lot of the online stuff. Nobody comes up to us on the street. But they'll see somebody at the grocery store. You're not sitting at a restaurant

or in a grocery store and somebody's gonna come up to you. Yeah, so I guess we could've done better on that front. But I wanted to talk about what you were saying with the number of, the way that I interacted with the number of stories that people were telling and the number of people who related. Now, my initial reaction was one of this is awesome,

this is super encouraging. Like you said, there was a few times where I was just reading people's stories, it was a very emotional thing. It's like people have been through some shit, man. Yeah. In contrast to our stories, like I said, it was very difficult to kind of move out of that world,

but that world, we benefited personally from that world in a lot of ways that other people have a lot more trauma, depending on their background. And some of those stories are just heart wrenching, but the way that, again, so there's just sort of my heart reaction to it, which is, this is great, and then there's my head reaction to it, which is this is great, and then there's my head reaction to it, which is like, what are we gonna do with this?

You know, I'm always thinking about what the next thing is that we're gonna do. And... Yeah, and I thought about that too. When you got all these people sharing the story and there feels like there's this momentum and there feels like there's this momentum and there feels like there is this, you know, we've all kind of left something

that was very organized and was a very particular movement into this thing that it's just pretty nebulous. What is this life after Christian faith? Yeah, are you talking about thoughts that enter your mind like, well, should we organize something? No, no, no, no, no, no. I wanna be clear, I wanna be clear. I'm too old and just wise enough

to know that that would be a horrible idea. I'm not talking about a Rhett and Link church. I'm talking about like a specific like, oh, let's change the complexion of this podcast to have some programmatic addressing of some of these things. I would say in a more general sense, it's just asking the question of, is there a project associated with this, right?

That's one question that enters my mind is like, is there a project? I don't know what that is, but you got all these people, they've got their stories, there's this momentum, we've tapped into something. And so I feel this pressure to sort of figure that out. At the same time, I'm feeling this pressure to, like you said, this has sort of been a kick in the pants

to like sort of reengage spiritually. For me, that's been true, but it's also kind of the way that it's registered with me is, I threw out this deconstruction story and talked about what I don't believe anymore. I talked a little bit about what I do believe now, but what I do believe now is held with a much lower level of conviction and passion because it's more of a position of openness and curiosity

but I don't wanna be in that position perpetually and never embrace anything, right? But there was this sort of like, oh people, like you just, again you just threw this rock into the hornet's nest and now you got all these hornets flying around and some of them are coming up to you and asking, well, what now?

You know, and I'm not trying to put on the mantle of some spiritual leader, that's the last thing that I want to do because that's not, it's very much the last thing that I ever want to do. But there is this part of me that's just like, well, you should find some answers. You know, you should find some answers

and then you should relay those answers. And again, I just feel like that is rooted in my ego. I don't think that that's rooted in anything good. I don't think that there's, I think it's very much about a personal, personal interest and personal self justification. I don't think that there's any,

I should be leaning into that. That doesn't mean that I shouldn't be personally seeking and being open and being open to whatever is next for me, which I think that I am, but doing that because I want to then present myself to a group of people who are listening is a- Right, right. And the interesting thing is-

It's a trap. Ironically, that's what ministry is for so many people. That's what any position of leadership is, but I've known, I've got a lot of friends who are pastors and I've had a lot of friends who are pastors and some of them in their most honest moments have relayed to me that there is this sort of self-fulfilling prophecy, I don't know,

that's probably not the right terminology, but there is this idea that now I am the one that you are coming to for answers and so I must create the answers. I must have the answers. I must live the life. I must have the appearance of having it figured out because that is what you expect of me.

And I think that a lot of pastors are just kinda stuck in this. It's tough. Hamster wheel of appearances and kinda, and the church in a lot of ways has set it up that you can't screw up. You can't be a human. You can't have imperfections,

especially if you're in leadership, especially if you're the pastor. Right. Yeah, I feel for him. And but I'll draw an analogous scenario for us. I was on my Valentine's date with Christy and first of all, there's a story that I'm not gonna tell now.

Maybe I'll tell it next week when it's like, when we have more space for this. So don't let me forget. I guess it's a funny thing to happen, but that's kind of my point. I was sitting at dinner and another weird thing happened that I'm not referring to, and I made a joke to Christy at dinner and I was like, oh, you know I'm gonna talk about this on Ear Biscuits.

And it was like, and she, you know, she got, she was like, uh-uh, are you serious? It's like, and it wasn't that she didn't want me to share a funny story, it's just that we're on a date. This is about me and her and if I'm sitting there, the moment something happens, I'm like, oh yeah, I got an Ear Biscuit story, then that robs the intimacy of the moment, you know?

It's like, well, we just had a funny moment, you know? We didn't, we experienced a funny moment that you can then have on an audience later, you know? It's like, and I was like, actually, I was just joking because that was my joke, Christy, that was my defense. It's just a joke, but I am talking about it on your business right now. No, I'm talking about.

Talking about it. Talking about it, but I'm not talking about it. Okay. But maybe next week I'll share another story, but not this one, because it's off limits now. Yeah, because that's sacred, precious. Just between you and Christy. But my point, I hear your point when it comes to like,

am I gonna pursue, am I gonna, like let's just say it's find an answer to a specific spiritual or philosophical question for yourself. Are you gonna find that question just so you can turn around and prove that you have an answer on ear biscuits? Like that's dangerous, that is a trap. You know, it's like.

And it's a trap for certain personalities. My personality, listen, it's a trap for me and it's one of the ways that I interacted with responsibilities in the church, right? It's like, yeah, of course I'm gonna lead a Bible study. Right? And of course, every once in a while, if they ask me, I'll preach, give a talk on something.

And I think there's a, ironically, the way, and of course, our experiences with the evangelical church, but the way the evangelical church is structured at this point is typically men who are type A personalities who would otherwise make great CEOs make really good pastors in the system that is currently set up.

And they're charismatic leaders, not charismatic in the theological sense, but just winning personalities. They're smart, they're insightful, they know how to relate, they know how to tell a good story. And they very quickly find hundreds, if not thousands of people who want in. And I think it just creates a really unhealthy,

I know for me personally, if we had stayed in ministry, I'm sure that we would have taken some sort of path in leadership and I think I operated in a really unhealthy place for a really long time. I know I did, I described it. Yeah. As a worship leader. Yeah, but the interesting thing is that

to get back to what we're gonna do with this momentum or whatever it is, and this is kind of what I was talking about in therapy last night, is finding a way to just lean into the personal nature of the process. But it not being about a movement, it not being about being right, being justified,

being the Bible answer man, you know what I'm saying? And having an answer and having a reason for everything. Because very quickly, almost immediately, that just becomes about me. It just becomes about me wanting to justify myself and to get your approval. The whole process that I've been going through in therapy is leaning away from that and being like,

it's not, no, no, no, it's not about people's approval. It's not about what people think about you. It's about figuring out what is actually happening in your heart. And so I think, so my desire for when we talk about these things on the podcast is just to, I'm not saying we shouldn't answer a question or two at some point, even now, I don't know, probably not now,

we're almost out of time, but I want the tone of that and the purpose of that to be, hey, not an expert, just a couple of guys trying to figure out life, trying to move closer to the truth, doing our best. Yeah, for me, like I said, the process of sharing my story really helped me almost internalize some conclusions about like realizing things about who I was

and about how I interact, like the way that I interacted with my faith and my belief system and what that what that meant about me as a person then what it means for me now um and well there there's one tweet from Holly that I wanted to read. She said, I too was raised evangelical and am an Enneagram one like me. I struggled my whole life trying to be a quote, better Christian. And it wasn't until after college that I realized I was exhausted from living with this internal struggle. And that is, this process of putting this out there has really helped me begin to understand to a new level my own internal struggle.

And that there is absolutely a level of exhaustion that I did not know that was there associated with my perfectionism, my underlying anxiety. And again, I know that there's a lot of anxiety there and it's not all from my experience within the church, it's from a lot of things. And so it really provided the occasion for me to say,

you know what, I am going to go to therapy. I'm not just gonna talk about it. You know, we've talked about it a lot. Christy and I have talked about it a lot. Some of our closest friends, we've talked about it for years and it almost felt like I was practically going to therapy. But that's also, that's also, But that's so wrong. That's so Link.

Yeah. You have this, and I can't come up with any other examples. I was like, I'm not opposed to it. But you have this tendency that I've noticed throughout our lives together that like, sometimes it's like when somebody close to you kind of starts doing something or is interested in something, you're just like,

yeah, yeah, I'm by proxy interested. I'm by proxy. So I think you've been experiencing the benefits of therapy because the people you're closest with have been going. You pick up on a lot. Right. And it's not like we don't read and discuss a lot of the same books.

But last night, ironically, the same time you were at therapy, I was at my first therapy appointment and I don't think without going through this process, I would have pulled the trigger on setting up that appointment. A first therapy appointment, I'm not gonna sit here and give you a play by play, but you know, one hour is not a lot

when you're trying to get it, when you have as much as I have that you're trying to get out. So it's, but you know, I'm very excited to have taken that step and to me, it's a tangible step for me personally, as a result of decide, you know, to follow through on the commitment that I made to myself

and just shared at the end of my story that was, I do wanna work at understanding and loving myself more and expanding my capacity to love others more and also to pursue faith. and expanding my capacity to love others more and also to pursue faith. To me, those things are connected. If I can't, I don't think if I can't start to love myself more, I don't know if I can receive any love from God

receive any love from God, if that love is there to be received, you know? So, again, I'm just getting started, but I'm very, I'm excited. I know there's a lot of pain associated with therapy and that I also know that I have a lot of, that there's this fear that is somewhere in me that then on the underside of that, there's things that I've been afraid to explore.

But my hope and my excitement to grow and to work at it my hope and my excitement to grow and to work at it is overrides the fear that I think that maybe has always been there. And I think this process has helped me realize. So, and again, to hear like Holly's tweet that like she related to that, it was just hearing that somebody related then kind of doubled back on itself

and helped me understand myself even better, hearing it in somebody else's words. It's like, well, this is how I feel and this is the words that I would put it in of being exhausted. It's like, wow, this is how I feel. And this is the words that I would put it in of being exhausted. And it's like, wow, yeah, that is me. So it's already come back. And I just feel, I'm grateful that we've done it just for me personally.

And I cannot you know, I cannot own how other people process it for them. That's on them. Well, you know, if we are gonna answer a question, I think, you know, you're kind of getting very close to it already. A question that I saw a number of times was why, why tell this story? Mm-hmm.

And maybe even more specifically, there were people who were like, why tell this story? What if you're wrong? What if you're wrong and you're leading an untold number of people, depending on the popularity of this podcast, down the wrong path. Do you really want that?

Do you really want that on your shoulders? You wanna be responsible for that. I think that most of those comments are coming from people who haven't been listening to the podcast. And I don't just mean the episodes, I mean the podcast as a whole. Yeah. Because I think that anyone who's been on board

for any length of time has sort of seen this coming because we have gotten increasingly personal. And so listen, some people are like, I would never do that. I would never talk about what is happening to me in therapy and have thousands of people listen to it. Listen, I get that, I respect that. And I don't exactly know why this is the way that we've chosen to do what we're doing.

And in some ways, this podcast has become therapy. It has become very therapeutic, right? Because we talk about, I talk to my therapist in the way that I talk to you guys on here, right? It's just very much like, you kind of just start talking and see what happens. And I don't know if there's just this increased desire

for vulnerability and being able to just communicate that with a wide audience. I don't know what the motivations are. I don't know exactly how we got here. I just know that, like you said, the idea of continuing to kind of pull back the curtain and be like, this is just two guys trying to live life and figure it out. And if you wanna be in the conversation,

listening on the conversation of two guys who've known each other forever, who are best friends, who work together, who are husbands and fathers, and now people who've deconstructed from their former Christian faith. You wanna be along for the ride, then let's do it. Let's do it together. But because it had gotten,

the tone had gotten so vulnerable and there was so much about self-disclosure, and because it was so related to our careers. Like we can't honestly talk about why we do what we do as an actual career without talking about how we got here and telling the full story. And we honestly can't tell the full story

without putting our perspective on those years into perspective, which then requires us to tell our story personally. Yeah, yeah. It all kind of fit together. But I think another answer is that we are discovering that when you are vulnerable, it opens you up to more love and more empathy for, again, for yourself and for your best friend

and for other people. What I just described that like, I shared my story from me. Other people, it helped other people. And then that response helped me. It's just the way people look at it like a show. And yes, we have to set boundaries for ourselves and we have to be like the thing we talked about

a few minutes ago about like whether it's on the date or like our version of being the preacher. But so yeah, we have to be protected and we have to set boundaries and we have to, we're gonna learn that as we go. But we're able to, and I'm grateful that we're able to have an honest conversation in front of a microphone

that we would have if it wasn't here. We've talked about how we have them a lot more because they're here than if the microphone's not here. But then we also, it's just, what I'm saying is we're conducting an honest friendship. It just happens to be recorded. And I'm just, what people do with it is their business. But we also experience a greater capacity

for connection with and love with an audience because it's not just some people sitting in chairs listening, it's individual people who are then contributing to a conversation. It's not like we're going on television. It's a different thing, you know? And the nature of the conversation has been really refreshing.

Can I, and I just wanna, I wanna read this one thing. On the Discord channel of the Mythical Society, which is, if you don't know, that's our fan club, and yes, you gotta pay for it. I'm not promoting it, but I'm just saying that like, I was just so encouraged by this one exchange and I'm not gonna read the whole thing, but there was this 16 year old guy who was,

he just, he was processing our Ear Biscuits and he just shared that, he's had a devout set of beliefs, the specifics of which aren't pertinent. And that, you know, he was impacted by our conversation and there was parts of it that kinda shook him up and he was just sharing that. Not with us but just in the Discord.

And then a response from one particular mythical beast, I just wanna read part of it. Well I'll read the whole thing. I remember being there as a teenager so I definitely know what you're going through. My best advice is just to trust yourself. And to remember that there's nothing wrong with questioning and researching on your own and coming

to your own conclusions. Remember that no matter what your religion teaches, there is nothing wrong with questioning or having doubts. And that whatever conclusions you come to or choices that you make, make sure that you're making them for yourself and no one else. You may have people try to guilt you

into making a certain decision or believing a certain way because they want you to believe the way they do. I know I definitely did. But ultimately, no one but you can decide what you believe. And then the response was, yeah, that's what I need to hold on to. And then there was some more there and it says, if you need support, I know there are a ton of people

in this server who will be happy to talk or listen. And if there's anything in particular you're struggling with, we might be able to provide resources. Again, I really appreciate it was the response. And I think there are a couple of things there. You know, it just seems like that's the message that I talk to my kids about. And it is such a big deal to say, okay,

you have to make these decisions for yourself. No one can make these decisions for you. They can, but you really need to make these decisions for yourself, no matter what it is, you're gonna be loved and supported by this community, which is my second point that I was just blown away that that one example is repeated again and again that there's

so many people in our community and then it gives me hope for humanity at large that there's that level of love and support for people that, you know, even if you're not talking about the specifics of, well, do I agree with you on this? Or are we on the same page? Or are you right? Or are you wrong?

But it's love and support and encouragement to deal with those things in the most healthy way possible. These issues that are so important. I was just grateful for that. And that's why we don't, we don't want the conversation to devolve into an argument, right?

Yeah. About the finer points of theology. And again, it's not that I don't think, I just wanna be really clear, it's not that we don't think that you having your own answers as close to the truth as possible is not important. As I hope I demonstrated in my story, it's like because those answers are important

is why I don't believe like I used to believe, right? It isn't that those theological points and examining those things are not important. They're very important. But the moment that they become a source of contention between people and the moment that you take love out of your interaction, you're missing the point regardless of what side of the issue you're on.

I think that just the idea, because basically what you're talking about is that, the most, and this is a cliche and corny, but the most important thing is love, right? It's like, what is my ethic? Or what are my ethics at this point? It's love. And I actually think that asking that question

in any given situation, what is the most loving response? What is the most loving way forward in this situation? Is a pretty good guide. And incidentally, that's very consistent with what Jesus taught, you know? Faith, hope and love, the greatest of these is love. I think that regardless of where you're at and where you come down

on these particular issues and what you think about the nature of life and the nature of eternity, you're not gonna go wrong if you kind of fall back on that. What is the most loving thing that I could do in this situation? And like Link said, I think that it's been super encouraging that the vast majority of the conversation has been loving and respectful.

We have an incredible community. We value that a lot and that's the conversation, that loving conversation is what we want to continue to engender. And it's not about two guys who are, listen, we may have engineering degrees, but we're just, we're YouTube comedians. That's what we are.

We're not authorities on any of these issues. If you're coming to either one of us to figure out what you think about your faith, there are much better sources. And so that was not the intention at all in telling our stories was you to be convinced that we were right. It's just very much, hey, this is what our process was,

this is what our story was. You should be doing your own investigation. But we just wanna be about love. It's that simple. And on that note, can I recommend a children's book? Sure. I was reading this book to Lando. He pulled it off his shelf

and this is my wreck in effect this week. It's called The Three Questions, written and illustrated by John, J-O-N, J Muth, M-U-T-H. The three questions is based on a story by Leo Tolstoy. It's a short story that I had never read. And so as I was reading this children's book to Lando, I was just moved. And it's very pertinent to the conversations

that we've been having. And it was just like, it felt like a fate moment. I'll be honest that I was, I mean like Lando started looking at me weird cause I was like tearing up and I was like, this book, this is amazing. There's something, there's some wisdom in this. And I didn't realize that it was based on

a Leo Tolstoy short story until we were done reading it. But like, I could sense that there was some depth to this thing. So you know what, I'm not gonna tell you about it. But I recommend if you, you know, Lando's nine, he was very much into it. But you don't have to have kids to read it. I actually recommend this children's book adaptation

instead of just listening to or on Audible or reading the Leo Tolstoy short story of the same name. Though I do recommend that story as well. But the way that it's turned, it's more modernized and it's a little bit more existential, is it's very powerful. So that's my recommendation. Will you read it to me?

A kid's book. Will you come over to my house and read it to me and tuck me in tonight? Gladly, yeah. Good. Yeah. Hashtag Ear Biscuits, let's continue the conversation. And I'm not, listen, we will, we're gonna answer some questions at some point, so I don't want everybody to think

we've just completely thrown all your questions aside. We've still got a bunch of them. We'll get back to them. We're just trying to zero in on the tone of how we're gonna approach those. Thanks for listening.