Ear Biscuits with Rhett & Link - 242: Our Experiences With Therapy | Ear Biscuits Ep.242

Episode Date: May 25, 2020

Clarity in therapy - originally ranked in at #6 on Rhett's top 10 moments on 2019, Link has also recently decided to try it as well. Listen to R&L share their experiences in therapy and how it has impacted their lives in this episode of Ear Biscuits! To learn more about listener data and our privacy practices visit: https://www.audacyinc.com/privacy-policy Learn more about your ad choices. Visit https://podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Let's go seize the night that's the powerful backing of american express visit amex.ca slash y amex benefits vary by card other conditions apply welcome to ear biscuits i'm link and i'm ret This week at our respective tables of adequate and varied lighting, we're going to be talking about therapy. Specifically, a discussion that we started to have just on our own that we were like, hey, that would be a good ear biscuit. Yeah. I think I mentioned on this show when I decided to start to go back to therapy some months back and having started to go to therapy for the first time, I now find myself processing a lot about beginning that process. And there's lots of interesting questions that pop into my mind, some of which I think I might need to take to therapy, honestly, because I don't know if they're the right questions. I think the questions that I'm asking and the it as I start, it reveals more about me than it does about therapy.

But I kind of want to talk through that a little bit more because you've been going to therapy for a while, not two years yet, right? Maybe. Over two years. Over two years. So for me, I've done- I'm way ahead of you. I should have still-

You'll never catch up. It's less than 10 sessions that I've done. So I'm interested to hear your take on it and also share with you listening about my experience, whether you've ever been to therapy or you've never been to therapy, if you're thinking about going, maybe some of this discussion can be helpful for you or encouraging or, and I don't know what it will be, but I just feel like I'd like to talk about it and explore this because there's a lot there. Yeah. You're

just scratching the surface, man. I'm excited for you. And this is a lot cheaper. there's a lot there. Yeah, you're just scratching the surface, man. I'm excited for you. And this is a lot cheaper. This is a lot cheaper. I'm gonna be honest. Yeah, we're actually making money doing this in order to pay for therapy. The couple of, as they say on some other podcasts,

housekeeping issues. Okay, I love housekeeping. I do wanna acknowledge the fact that say on some other podcasts, housekeeping issues. Okay, I love housekeeping. I do wanna acknowledge the fact that I realized that when I say that we need to do a podcast episode about something, I say, or I say, we've got to record, I say, we've got to record an ear biscuit. And I use the singular, but you always say, we've got to record an ear biscuit and I use the singular, but you always say we've got to record an ear biscuits.

And I just kind of feel like we need to, we need to get to the bottom of that. Here's the problem. Because. It's the hashtag, man. Cause it's like, I think, as you know, I think in terms of hashtags and what is the hashtag for the show?

Is it hashtag ear biscuit? No, it's hashtag ear biscuits. That's also the name of the show. Is it hashtag Ear Biscuit? No, it's hashtag Ear Biscuits. That's also the name of the show. So we're gonna record another Ear Biscuits episode. That doesn't, I don't think I'm stepping on the hashtag by saying an Ear Biscuit. No, that one episode of Ear Biscuits is an Ear Biscuit. Exactly.

But what I'm saying is not wrong. An Ear Biscuits episode. I think I always put the word episode about it. Why are you springing this on me? If you're going to hit me with this, you should tell me ahead of time, because I mean, I'm looking bad on my own show here. I think the solution can be that when I talk about it,

I say it's an Ear Biscuit. And when you talk about it, I say it's an ear biscuit. And when you talk about it, you say it's an ear biscuits. And that way we've got both covered. Well, you didn't seem to imply that was your goal to just acknowledge that we're different. Oh. I've been going to therapy for at least two years. So I am able to arrive at equitable solutions very quickly,

more quickly than someone who's been at therapy for a couple of months. Gee. We also have, like this is an NPR show. You seriously brought that up just so you could say that you've been to therapy more than me? Was that the whole point of the Ear Biscuits, Ear Biscuit thing?

It wasn't, it wasn't. It just hit me because I thought about it yesterday. I think you changed your mind based on what I said. No, no, you said, oh, we gotta do an Ear Biscuits tomorrow. And I was like No, no. You said, oh, we got to do an Ear Biscuits tomorrow. And I was like, I'm going to talk to him about that on an Ear Biscuit, because that'd be funny. We do have a correction that we need to make. Now, we have a group of friends, a group of friends that we went to NC State with, that we stay in touch with. We've

been video chatting weekly. A number of them, I don't know how many, two probably, listen to Ear Biscuits on the regular. Greg, I don't know if Greg listens. I know that Harm listens occasionally. Tim definitely listens. Newkirk doesn't listen. And Tim listens because he'll start texting us or now he puts it in the thread.

He'll just start commenting things to us conversationally, but he's referencing a conversation that we've had on Ear Biscuits. And he's apparently listening to it at that moment. And he's listening the day it comes out most of the time, I think, because it happens pretty, he's listening to the audio version. Which brings us to a correction, right?

Yeah, he sent us a text last night and it was, Horace Grant went to Clemson, by the way. Oh. So in the previous episode, when talking about the last dance, which interestingly, we also got into a little bit of a discussion about Jordan, because the whole, the classic conversation

about how would Jordan be in the modern, whatever. Do you like how I got into that conversation and then made it about hip hop music? And then Harm and I ended up talking about hip hop and you guys couldn't talk about Jordan anymore. As soon as you texted that, I read half of it and then just exited from the conversation.

I had something else going on. Okay. Which I'll tell you about in a second too. Lots of things to talk about. Yeah. So I was talking about the nature of NBA basketball at the time and how the Bulls were so unusual in that they had these guys like, you know, the best player in the world who didn't even make his varsity team his sophomore year, and then guys who went to small schools, and I said Scottie Pippen and Horace Grant. What I meant to say was Scottie Pippen and Dennis Rodman, because Scottie Pippen went to Central Arkansas, and then Dennis Rodman went to two different schools, North Central Texas, and then Southeastern Oklahoma State. These are not typically your programs that are feeders into the National Basketball Association.

So, again- Clemson on the other hand. Clemson? The great goggled one came from Clemson. So we've cleared that up. But it did remind me, you know, because Tim listens. I mean, I think it was harm. oh, we're about to get corrected again. Somebody brought up in our weekly scheduled

video conference that it was weird having friends who have a podcast where they talk about themselves and it, meaning us, because, I don't know if you're following along, I'm talking about them talking about us. But he made the point that it's weird to have conversations with us about our personal lives and then listen to an Ear Biscuit and realize that we talked about it.

No, no, no, you say Ear Biscuits, you keep it plural. An Ear Biscuits episode and realizing that we had recorded a show where we talked about the same thing, but then when we talked to them about that aspect of our lives, we didn't tell them that we also made it a public conversation that we had already had that hadn't come out yet,

that then after we have the conversation with them, they hear it again when it goes out to all of our audience. And I was like, yeah, I guess I don't have any friends who, I get, you know what, I take that back. I was about to say I don't have any friends who have a podcast, but I don't really, the personal nature of a podcast, I think it makes it a little weird for our friends.

So sorry, guys. Now we're talking about, talking about you and talking to you on an episode that you don't know exists when we talk to you soon, should we give you the heads up or just let it slide? No, let it slide. I see it as a little surprise.

Speaking of surprises, the last piece of information that we should cover before we get started talking about therapy. Yeah. So as you know, yesterday we went surfing together. That was fun. It was delightful. I was standing up and paddling

and I was catching waves left and right. And I was trying to teach myself how to surf on a regular board. And I'm gonna say I'm hurting today. And I'm also very tired. I did get up one time, as you saw. It wasn't pretty, but I surfed for a little bit. I don't really wanna talk about the surfing.

I'm just committed to getting better. Because there's nothing to brag about. So you don't wanna talk about it. And also we did see a guy out there who said, "'Big fan,' and I assume he was not talking "'about my surfing ability." Because there's nothing to brag about. So you don't want to talk about it. And also we did see a guy out there who said big fan. And I assume he was not talking about my surfing ability. No, he wasn't. And I'm a little embarrassed that he saw me at all,

to be honest. But- I'm embarrassed that he saw you with me. One of the things that was happening yesterday, it was raining unexpectedly. It was not in the forecast. It wasn't even on the weather when you looked at the weather. It was happening yesterday, it was raining unexpectedly. It was not in the forecast. It wasn't even on the weather when you looked at the weather. It was just raining, but it rained where our homes are at

and also all the way across Los Angeles. And it was raining when we were surfing. Yeah. But one of the things that was happening that is happening at my house, as you know, is that we've got ongoing construction on the outdoor area, but it's been on hold for many, many weeks during the crisis, the pandemic,

but now things are kind of getting somewhat back to normal and the construction crew is out there, social distancing, but working. But it's still an open pit basically of just dirt. And they had to drill a hole in the side of my garage, which, as you know, is below ground, to get power to run to something they're doing out there. They drilled a hole in the side of the foundation into the garage,

and I remember seeing the hole and thinking, okay, well, we're going to need to seal that hole. But, of course, I forgot about it. Apparently they did as well. So yesterday while we were enjoying ourselves and surfing, water and not so much water, but water and mud were pouring through that hole into my garage. And on top of that dresser

that I have in there that's got, it's basically all my stuff that I can't fit anywhere else in the house. Mostly like old electronics and like cables that I don't know where they go and stuff like that. But also my old iMac is sitting there. Everything was completely covered with mud, and somehow the way that it had cascaded into the dresser,

it was an old Ikea dresser, it had filled the top drawers, and then the next layer, and then the next layer. It had basically put mud in all of it. All the drawers? Yes. And then it went all over the floor and went and settled in the front of the garage.

A bit of a mess. And so last night I stayed up late. You cleaned it up? Going through. Well, they came and cleaned up the mud. They're cleaning up the mud today and they're throwing out that old IKEA furniture because once IKEA furniture gets wet, you can just, I mean, first of all, it's only good for about 24 months furniture. Because once Ikea furniture gets wet, you can just, I mean, first of all,

it's only good for about 24 months to begin with. But if it gets wet- No, you can crumple it up like a crouton and you can put it on your salad. Okay. But so I had to go through the stuff to tell the contractor like what got ruined. Thankfully, it's not a whole lot of stuff.

There's some stuff that I just bought, some electronic stuff that I just bought that needs to be replaced, but it wasn't like stuff that I didn't have like, you know, backed up and there's some old drives in there, but it was stuff that I've got backed up in the cloud, whatever. So anyway, that's why I was a little bit late this morning

because it was tough to get moving because I stayed up just wallowing in my own wetness and mudness and sadness. That sucks, man. You know what? Yeah. How did that make you feel? That's something that therapists would say, right? It's like, how did you process this news? Well, no, he would just say the first thing,

how does that make you feel? And you just leave it? And then I would say something like, well, you know, it made me think about how this is actually a really small thing. I'm actually really, really blessed materially, you know? And I can do with a little inconvenience and he would be like, ret, ret, ret, would be like, don't intellectualize it. Don't rationalize it.

How does it make you feel? So in other words, my tendency is to try to immediately put the positive spin on it. That's my personality. And he's like, well, we can get there and it isn't what you said is not untrue,

but you should process how it makes you feel because what tends to happen is what happened this morning, which is I was actually very angry about it. I called the contractor and I'm just, you know, I'm too nice. I was definitely as upset as I can get at a contractor, but still not really that upset, but he feels bad about it. but still not really that upset. But he feels bad about it. But then like this morning, when I was trying to meditate, I couldn't go down there and meditate down there and do my workout down there.

And so I was sitting in the living room meditating. And then my family starts coming downstairs and doing their stuff that they do in the kitchen, which I think is just eat. And I started getting mad. Started getting mad while meditating. And then Barbara wanted to get out of the bedroom and she was whimpering and I was like,

so what is up Barbara? And I'm sitting there, the meditating man, yelling at my family. And it's because I didn't stop and actually process the way that the mud coming through the hole made me feel. Oh. I held it in and then I released it on the people who I care about most.

When's your next therapy appointment? That's the work. Next Monday. Oh, so you didn't talk about it last night? I did not, no, because I do every two weeks. Okay. Shop Best Buy's ultimate smartphone sale today. Get a Best Buy gift card of up to $200 on select phone activations with major carriers.

Visit your nearest Best Buy store today. Terms and conditions apply. For those of you watching, you can see that I've now taken to, my mustache has gotten kind of long, I need to cut it back. But when I'm trying to drink my drink here. I'm having to then like use a paper towel to, it's really annoying. You have to dab.

I saw it. I told you about that guy. That was the, he was like the owner of the Texas, whatever the football team, the Titans, whatever they are. And he had a mustache that went completely over both lips, both lips. Wow. Covered over both lips and then just connected

basically again with his goatee that looked like another mustache. Yeah. Like it was like two dollops of hair. I don't understand that, man. Yeah, I don't understand. I don't understand how that happens. If you're watching this, you'll also see that

I'm wearing the t-shirt from the Thoughtful Guy music video. I still have this t-shirt. I work out in it sometimes. It's very sentimental. You worked out this morning? I'm thinking about doing a little activity after this. Because no. This is the first time I've put on a shirt

that has buttons in probably a month. Let's get into therapy, shall we? You know, I can't remember how I described the situation that led to me deciding to go to therapy, but it was a long time coming. And I'm distracted by the leaf blower. What? Yeah, Chrissy's trying to get me to go to therapy for our entire marriage, she seems to be saying.

Well, listen, you can give me a hard time right now because there's a leaf blower right outside here and maybe they won't hear you or the leaf blower. I can't remember exactly how I characterized my decision to go to therapy, but yeah, it was I knew I wanted to go. It was just kind of like the little things keep you from doing it. It's like, well, you know, because in the back of your mind, it's like, this is, this is quite an undertaking. I'm going to go to a professional and talk about myself. And this is something that I was, I believed in. I was never opposed to, I was, everyone around me that I care about has a positive experience with going to therapy.

I mean, in the discussions that we've had in this venue and otherwise, I've been very encouraged about your experience and your level of growth. And like, I've experienced the benefits of that. So it was, there's nothing inside of myself that was principally opposed to it in any way. Matter of fact, I would always say I'm looking for a therapist, but it was kind of a lie. It was like, I intend on looking for a therapist is what I really should have said. And I'm actually having a hard time knowing what put

me over the edge. Do you remember what I said that I was like, I'm actually going to do this? It's on record. But once I decided, once I decided, yeah, I don't remember. I don't, I don't, I don't recall. But I, I looked through the, I believe it's psychology.com directory and found some people close to me. I also got recommendations. I asked you to ask your therapist for recommendations because I don't want to go to the same therapist as you. That didn't seem like the best idea.

No. You came up dry, but a couple other friends made some suggestions. One friend made a suggestion and then I didn't like, I didn't like the sound of the therapist's name. And I just didn't, you know, I just didn't feel like I could say that name, like have a, I don't know, it was a distraction to me.

I'm not gonna mention what the name is. Well, I will say that- It's like a weird I don't know, it was a distraction to me. I'm not gonna mention what the name is. Well, I will say that- It's like a weird nickname. This is, that right there is sort of an indication of what will follow, I think, in terms of the way that you approach this, right? And I think that that's something that, not that you should have gone with that person,

but I do think that the way that you think about the things that you embark upon is a particular way that I think everyone, we'll get into what makes it made it difficult for me. Everyone has like a difficult, there's a difficult threshold to cross. Well, yeah. And it's for me. Everyone has like a difficult, there's a difficult threshold to cross. Well, yeah. And it's all based.

And I think it was probably just me putting up barriers because maybe deep down, I was intimidated. What would the, you know, with the prospect of getting into it. You know, I have had this growing sense that there's some sort of fear with knowing that I'm just afraid of what I might uncover.

And I feel like maybe I'm, like with my current coping mechanisms in the way that I live my life and whatever it is that I'm not fully exploring or coming to grips with within my myself or my past or both um that I you know that I, you know, that I was, I say I want to get into it and I believe that it's a good thing, but I'm just, I'm a little afraid of what I'm afraid of and the unknown of it. And so even the smallest reason

could be reason enough to not go for it, which is why I find it interesting that like, I can't remember right now what the trigger mechanism was, but I think it was just basically, part of it was Chrissy saying, you keep saying that you're looking for a therapist, but you're not actually, and you're not really taking any steps,

and this can't, I no longer believe you. It's like, she's just kind of calling me on it, and it was true. Well, we would have conversations as well because we were talking about therapy, recommending psychology.com, talking about how therapy was. And then you would say things like,

listen, I'm a real proponent of it. The people in my life have really benefited from it. But after a while it's like, okay, well. And I've picked up enough secondhand that I'm probably good, but after a while it's like, okay, well, what about you? And I've picked up enough secondhand that I'm probably good, but I should go. So I finally found someone whose name wasn't, the other person's name wasn't Timmy, but it was just like, if your therapist's name is like,

Timmy, it's just like, that's just a way, it's like, I'm going to have a session with Timmy. You know, it's like, that's just weird, you know? It's like- Yes, it's like you're gonna go to get trained how to juggle by a clown or something like that. Right. Right, yeah. Well, that would be more like,

I'm going to see my therapist honkers. Well, I could see Timmy the clown. I'm sure there's a Timmy the clown out there that does birthday parties. It just, you know, so I didn't want to be distracted by going to see, and Timmy's not the name, but. So I found somebody else who had a much more official sounding name.

And, you know, I read about this guy on his like information page on psychology.com. And then he said, you can email him for just for like an initial consultation or consultation may not have been a word, but it's kind of like an interview both ways. It's like, let's just meet over the phone. Let's have a 20 minute conversation and see if my skills match up with what you're interested in getting into. So I set up that call and I went to the, I went down the street to the,

my internet was out at this particular time. So, which meant my phone is very unreliable. So then I had to drive down and I'm sitting in the parking lot of the grocery store where my cell phone signal is very strong so that I can have a cohesive conversation with this potential therapist. And in the 20 minute conversation, I made up my mind that I was gonna be, yeah, I was gonna lay everything out there in terms of like, instead of him, it's only 20 minutes. So I'm just gonna lay out there everything that I want

and everything I'm thinking about and in as concise of a way as possible. And then also hear his response and see if that's something that resonates in terms, you know, so I talked about, I talked about some of the fear stuff that I think there's something there in my past. I talked about that a little bit.

I talked about my, I gave some statistics on my, on my upbringing and like being from a broken home and like there being some things, I gave like the bullet points from my past. I talked about how my brain works now. I talked about how, you know, there's a low level of anxiety that's constantly there. I put a lot of it out there

and I was comfortable and prepared to do that. And we had a good conversation and, you know, I, and he responded and said what his, his specialties were. And there was a lot of overlap there. But then he was like, but you got to call me Timmy. And you're like, okay, got to talk to somebody else. Well, this guy, and I'm not going to give his name,

but he has a first name, he has a last name, and he also has a middle initial in his email closing. So that's what I call him. Whenever I refer to him amongst my family, I call him Tim D. Hammonds. You know, that's not his name. I made that up off the top of my head, if it didn't sound like.

I'm gonna go. You're with Tim again. I'm gonna go with Tim again. I'm gonna go, Tim is fine, Timmy not good. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So if my kids are like, what are you doing? It's like, well, I've got a therapy appointment with Tim D. Hammonds, you know, because it seems official.

Yeah. So I liked that too, that the guy. I don't, okay. He has a middle initial. I have an opinion about referring to him by his full name every time you talk to your family about him, but continue. So maybe I'm starting off on the wrong foot. So I felt like we started off on the right foot. In this 20-minute conversation, there was a lot of overlap.

I was very forthright. He was asking questions. I talked about my family situation. I talked about what was healthy and what, you know, what I felt like I wanted to explore. And we set up the first meeting and, um, man, I was, I get really nervous. I don't know what it is about meetings. I mean, when we went surfing yesterday, I woke up nervous. I don't know what it is about meetings. I mean, when we went surfing yesterday, I woke up nervous. But I feel like it's sometimes I misconstrue being nervous or anxious with being excited,

which is actually something that he said in an early therapy appointment. You know, I was talking about some situation that I wish I wasn't getting nervous in and he was like, well, it sounds like excitement. But I do feel like I was excited, but I was nervous to go in there and you know, you're sitting in the waiting room

and then there's another person out there on their phone. So then when he comes out, he like looks at me and he doesn't say my name. He just gives me a nod because I guess he's respecting any type of conversation that I might have with somebody else there. Like if I were to say my name or something like, you know, he wants to respect my boundaries, however strict they may be. So he comes out and he gives me a nod and I follow him. We haven't even spoken. And I was like, I respect that, but it's still a little, it puts me on, I'm on edge, right? And I go in the room and there's the couch.

There's an actual couch. Now it's not a chaise lounge. It's not like a thing where it's like, well. You don't lay down. I could lay down on this couch, but it's not like a chaise lounge. It's not like a thing where it's like, well... You don't lay down. I could lay down on this couch, but it's not like a chaise lounge. You really can't do anything but lay down. Right? So that's like the cartoon

therapist. Forces you every movie. Every movie. This is like a reasonably sized sectional. But like my brain's going a million miles an hour. I'm like, should I lay down? Should I take off my shoes?

Should I, should I, you know, it's like, so I sit there like a normal person on a couch and we start a conversation. He's sitting in like a special, a desk chair that's borderline a recliner. I mean, I guess if your job is sitting and listening, you better have a good chair. I think it had a swivel to it. These are all the things I'm thinking in my first appointment.

I'm looking at what he's got on the wall. I'm looking at the bookshelf behind him because as he's talking, which isn't often, by the way, I can look past him and I can read some of the books that he's been reading and learn something about him. How to do therapy for dummies. Yeah, if you see that behind your guy or your girl, you need to, I don't know, ask him to pull it off the shelf and let's just read straight from it.

What was the last thing that filled you with wonder that took you away from your desk or your car in traffic? Well, for us, I'm going to guess for some of you, that thing is... Anime! Hi, I'm Nick Friedman. I'm Lee Alec Murray. And I'm Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. It's a weekly news show. With the best celebrity guests. And hot takes Leah President. And welcome to Crunchyroll Presents The Anime Effect. It's a weekly news show.

With the best celebrity guests. And hot takes galore. So join us every Friday wherever you get your podcasts and watch full video episodes on Crunchyroll or on the Crunchyroll YouTube channel. Okay, so can I, let me get in here. Get in here. You set the stage about like your first impression and like what's going through your mind when you walk in. So, and I'll tell a little bit of my story.

Now, I do wanna just do a slight sidebar because, you know, interestingly, after we kind of shared our lost year story, and for those of you who didn't hear that, that was when we kind of talked about our Christian background growing up, working as missionaries, and then how we both sort of changed the way that we think and feel about all that and no longer consider ourselves Christians. obviously going public with that was a little bit of a lightning rod amongst the people who listen to our podcast and just the sort of the Christian media world in some ways, right? And a lot of people have talked about it. Well, one of the things that I saw was a fair amount of criticism about how, you know, of course we get the criticism about how we've gone all LA. But one of the things that comes along with that is

you guys have basically replaced God with therapy, right? And in doing so, you've kind of replaced God with yourself, right? Because some people's perspective on therapy is that it's so self-absorbed and self-focused and people who go to therapy and are constantly trying to figure out what they feel and what they think and process through these things can become self-absorbed assholes, which I think is kind of missing the point. But one of the things that Jesse and I have talked about is that, and as we said in the last years, is we benefited in a lot of ways from being a part of a religious community, right? Being a part of a spiritual community.

There's a lot of growth that took place in that community. And while we have our issues with a lot of the views and some of the foundational propositions of Christianity at this point, it was really instrumental in us growing into the kind of people that we are, right? Absolutely. But one of the interesting things that I sort of picked up on, and this may not be as much the case anymore. It may have been a little bit more of like a 90s, early 2000s kind of thing, but in both me and Jesse's experience, there was very much a one size fits all sort of program. So it was basically like, if you're a man,

this is the kind of man that you should be. This is what being a man is about, right? If you're a woman, this is the kind of man that you should be. This is what being a man is about, right? If you're a woman, it's a very different program. This is what being a woman is. And I, as a 40 year old man, had never ever dealt with a lot of stuff that was going on inside my head and my heart, right? Because I knew how to fall in line

and I knew what the program for me as a man was, but, which was based on some things that I no longer agree with, but it just kind of struck me that when I started going to therapy, the level at which I was actually dealing with the specifics of my background, my family of origin and my personality the level at which I was actually dealing with the specifics of my background,

my family of origin and my personality was kind of revolutionary. And I'm not saying that that doesn't happen in spiritual communities and that doesn't happen in the Christian community, but it didn't happen in the communities that I was a part of, right? It really took taking that next step

and going into something where I was gonna deal with myself and my own shit, right? And I think that you having seen me do that, your wife do that, my wife do that, you knew that this wasn't gonna be like going to a men's conference, where it might get really personal and it might get really personal and it might get really real, but you're gonna kind of walk away with some marching orders

that every other dude who's there is gonna walk away with, but you probably are not gonna deal directly with some personal growth or kind of directly addressing some, again, this is probably happening in some churches or whatever, but it just didn't happen for us. Right. But I think that you knew that like,

oh man, I know what this process is going to entail and it's gonna entail getting in touch with my past. And for you, that's a very specific, it's more of a typical, this person needs to be in therapy kind of past, right? You know, your dad left, raised by a single mom. Okay. Right. Okay, yeah, you should be in therapy, right?

Now for me, somebody who came from a stable home, my parents are still together, in my mind, I had never, and the fact is, is that when it comes to like trauma, I don't have a lot of trauma. I don't have, everybody's got trauma and everybody wants to, some people want to minimize, not trying to minimize my own situation,

but I don't have this profile that's just like, you need help, right? But it was my wife seeing the way that I was processing all the stuff, all the pressure that we had sort of put on top of us over the years. And the fact that we're trying to lead this company and pursue these dreams. And it's just like, we were under a lot of pressure

on a really regular basis. Not to mention the fact that you started to go blind. Yeah, and it was coming out sideways, both in the way that I would kind of blow up, but also in the way that I was suffering physically and the most acute symptom being the, I don't even know what it's called anymore, but basically my retina was,

I got some fluid behind my eye and it's a stress-related condition that can cause temporary blindness. Pretty scary. So you literally couldn't see out of one eye? Well, it was very blurry in like the center of the field of vision, yeah. So for me, it was these acute symptoms that kind of just sent me over the edge.

But I just wanted to cover that because, you know, that little, that former self is always sitting there on my shoulder kind of telling me the way you sound right now. And I know that people may be turned off by it. And I just, I want to, and not to mention the fact that there's a stigma associated with it where it's like, you've got to have something specifically acutely wrong.

You've gotta have something in your background that warrants it. But you know, you don't have to have any condition to start working out, right? You don't have to have a physical ailment in order to begin working out. Well, exercising has been shown to make your life better and longer in all kinds of ways, right?

And I think that going to the doctor on a regular basis is a good idea. And I think that everyone has something in their personality that has been constructed as a defense mechanism based on their background and the stuff that they've been through and everybody's been through something. And so I just, you know, I think that anyone is a candidate for it and can benefit from it. And I believe that, but for the longest time, I didn't believe that because I just, I was never, no one ever said it, but you know, my entire experience of growing up was in the church.

Well, I want to limit this to my specific experience and not talk about the church in general. My specific experience and limited to that was I got the impression by reading between the lines that as I cultivated my relationship with God and that Jesus can meet all of our needs, and yes, he does that through all types of ways and through interactions with people included in that, including professionals. people as included in that, including professionals. But I never, I always thought of,

we talked about counseling. You might need counseling. You might need couples counseling. You might need, you know, you might need some help walking through this and it's very in a spiritual environment. But therapy was something for people who had a diagnosable problem or something that was extremely serious that then you got to go to another level. And I just thought that, like, nothing in my life is bad enough for that, for therapy. You know, I can handle everything with counseling and through the cultivation of my spirituality in these other ways. But so I'm not present. Now I'm not presented in either or.

You can absolutely benefit from both at the same time. In the conversations that we've had with our friends, you know, we've seen that. Just to go back to Tim, not the fake name of my therapist, but our friend who knew that Horace Grant was from Clemson, who's a pastor now. So moving on from that, when I started therapy, I was ready to go in. I was ready to explore things. Matter of fact, I started to have ideas

of what I wanted to go into. And so he would start off with, so how are you doing? How's your day, how's your week? He is where he would start. And then I would be like, okay, I have an idea of where I wanna go. There's two different things. I have this immediate need of,

we're planning this big vacation with my extended family, like Christy's side of the family, we're gonna go to Disney World. Like, but like, I'm feeling a lot of anxiety associated with that and I want to deal with that in a healthy way and I don't wanna be the one to screw that up for my entire extended family because this is a big deal.

But, and that's like an immediate need, but then I got this, the deeper stuff that I know I wanna get into about like my past and how I view myself and how I, how there's so much, like my inner critic is so strong and I feel like I suffer from that. And so in the first two sessions, I talked about both of those two things.

Interestingly enough, we were going through having put out the Lost Years podcasts and I chose not to bring any of that up because it was like, that's a whole other thing I'm not ready to get into even though it was something that I was very much dealing with at the time. You know, and like he didn't even really have an inkling that that was going on because I never brought it up

because in my mind, I had prioritized these other things I wanted to talk about and get into. And then, so even once I started to get into those things, And then, so even once I started to get into those things, half of my mind is trying to figure out how does this work? And how does he work specifically? And how do I work? So it wasn't just having a conversation, but it was analyzing everything to figure out the system.

So I would be like, okay, he asked me a general question and then I dictate what I wanna talk about. And then if I make a statement, if I get to a point where I'm done talking, then he'll ask another clarifying question about it and I'll need to think about it for a second and answer. And then when I'm done with that, and just let me finish what I observed as a system.

And then at that point, I would observe sometimes, I would finish talking and he wouldn't ask anything. He wouldn't say anything. He would just be quiet. And that's when it got a little weird because I'm immediately feeling like, okay, I'm done. I put something out there. He's quiet.

Am I supposed to talk now or are you supposed to talk? It's like that scene in Star Wars where he's like, are you gonna talk now or am I gonna talk? And so I brought so much, my brain was so hot in going into this situation. And then that's how it went for the first few. It was like two different levels of conversation going on in my own mind.

Yeah, so, I mean, we talked about this a little bit, but you're an Enneagram one. You don't have to know what the Enneagram is. And we haven't done an episode about it yet, but you're a perfectionist, right? So your driving sort of guiding principle in life is you want to make sure that you're doing things right. For me, I'm a three. The best possible way. not necessarily right, but I want to be the best at whatever it is, right? I want to perform. And those are actually pretty similar. They manifest themselves in pretty similar ways,

especially when you encounter anyone else in life, right? And so me and you tend to be super self-aware and we analyze everything and we're thinking about things almost like a filmmaker, you know, stepping back and observing the way things that are happening. And what that's doing is it's, again, this is really just a figurative way of talking about it, but you're kind of getting out of your heart and getting out of your feelings and you're getting into your head and you're moving into this analytical place

where there's not a lot of progress. There's not a lot of actual work that happens once you step out and you get into it, especially when it gets so analytical that you're actually thinking only about the process that's happening between you and that person. But it's the only natural response for most people. Like for me, the thing that took me forever, and I still have a tendency to do this, because I'm a performer, sometimes my therapy appointment will come up and I'm like, oh man, I don't have anything for him today.

You know, I don't have anything for him today. Right. Like, it isn't going to be worth his time to spend time with me today, because I'm not gonna bring it. You know, I've got to perform for this guy. And that may take the form of very early on in like some of the initial things it was, all right, I kind of want to let this guy know that, and again, this wasn't a conscious process, but it was like, I kind of want to let this guy know that I'm not

crazy. Okay. It's like, all right, let's just get, let's get that out of the way. I'm not, I'm not crazy. You know, I'm a stable person. I'm a stable genius. And I, you know, I kind of, I understand what's happening here. I know what you're trying to do. And I am basically saying, hey, I'm gonna be a good partner in this. Like I'm gonna give you what you need,

which is you just tell me how I'm supposed to go about this and I'll do a good job at it. Like, you know, show me the steps to perform because as soon as I understand that I'll lock in and I'll be your best patient ever. Again, not a conscious process, but that's how I process it. Yeah, I find myself whenever, like I'm racking my brain to figure out

what it is I want to talk about before I go in there. And I don't feel good. I feel horrible until I can answer that question. And just to skip ahead a little bit, like we went from week to week because it was a trial thing. And it was, I said, let's do every week. And then with, with the pandemic and the isolation, things were in flux and we didn't schedule. And then it was like, let's just do every other week. And then it got to a point where I was like, ironically, I was having the most difficult time.

As you know, this past week has been extremely difficult. When I did the live stream with Britton, I shared some of this there too, because with what Christy's going through and her level of anxiety and me caring for her and it's been very difficult for both of us. And you know, we've talked about all this, but ironically, I made an active decision

not to schedule a therapy appointment because I just felt like I don't even know the reason. It was like, now that I'm really into this thing and we had talked about it when it wasn't as acute. I had had a meeting or two with him remotely, and we had discussed it because I had made up my mind I wanted to discuss it. And then I found myself canceling the appointment, and I haven't gone, or we haven't met in a couple of weeks.

And now there is no standing appointment at all. I found it so interesting how when I'm going through the toughest time, I made a decision in spite of myself to not go at all. It's like, and I- Well, here's the ironic thing, right? The ironic thing is that you're so concerned about doing it wrong that, you know what?

You're actually doing it wrong. Yeah, and even when I would go- You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Because it's like, again, I think that it's, again, it comes from a slightly different place, but the application is often the same. And that is, I've stopped, the thing I have stopped doing,

and this would be my advice for you, is I've stopped thinking about the appointment before the appointment is happening. I've stopped thinking about, what am I gonna bring tonight? Like, what are my bullet points? This isn't like sixth grade when I was calling my girlfriend and I had to have a list of things to talk about

so I wouldn't run out, right? This is about getting in touch with what I'm feeling. And ironically as well, when you talk about what you're going through, which we've obviously been talking a lot about what you've been going through and going with going through with Christie in my last appointment. And again, I've kind of made this habit of like, I'm not going to think about this. I'm just going to, I'm not going in with an agenda, even though it is up to me. Right. He's going to say, how you doing? So he was like, how you doing?

me, right? He's going to say, how you doing? So he was like, how you doing? And I was like, I don't know. I think, I mean, I think I'm doing okay. And then I'll just kind of just start talking about things that are going on. And, you know, the thing that he's really good at is picking up on super empathetic and kind of get to things that I don't even know that I'm feeling. But basically what our appointment became, our conversation became about was the fact that I was having a lot of anxiety about what was happening with you and Christy. Like that we were talking about it and I'm trying to figure out, well, what can I do about this, right? Like, what can I say to help you and Christy during this time?

Jesse and I are talking about it a lot. And it's like, I started realizing that I was having all this anxiety about your situation. But if I had just thought about my agenda, I would have never got there. What I would have done is I would have gone in and I would have thought, well, the thing that I need to talk about right now

is this issue that I'm having at work or whatever. But when I go in without an agenda and I really just try to just start talking about whatever it is that might be happening, even sometimes it's just like catching up with a friend, right? Because we're friends now. So it might just be like, oh, we did something cool. We went surfing today. I surfed with the dolphin, whatever it might be. And then that will lead into something else. But that would be, that's been the most helpful thing for me is getting past the agenda

and the planning or the prioritizing. Thinking that you've got to put this ahead of this. I got to deal with this before I get to this. It's not organizing a garage, right? And that's your tendency is going to be, I got to approach this the way I would approach washing dishes.

Well, and you know what I'm saying? I appreciate that. Well, let me, let me, let me just respond to all that because there's a lot in there.

I think, first of all, it's very touching for me to hear that you talked about my situation in your therapy and I feel like

that means a lot to me. And I think, you know, I feel like I reap the benefits of that in terms of the conversations that we've had with the, you know. At this point, the light at the end of the tunnel is very bright. Like I'm, you know, Christy's in a very good place, and I'm in a very good place. But when it was at the darkest moments and we were having those conversations,

it was extreme. I couldn't have done without it. So I want to thank you for that. And I also want to thank the other friends, like the friends that we talked about at the top of this episode. You know, every week having that touch point where it's like we can just hang out and like we're asking how everybody's doing. And that's been extremely helpful.

And I've told them that, but I just, you know, for those of them that are listening, I wanna thank them specifically now because it was extremely helpful. And I'm seeing that if I would have just gotten out of my own way, I could have also benefited from having my standing therapy appointment that if I would have also benefited from having my standing therapy appointment that if I would have made it standing

and not just made it a question mark every time. So yeah, so then back to this conversation, I just feel like that's very helpful. And it's interesting because in the conversations that I have with him, at a certain point, I'm like, okay, this is an hour. I'm at the 45 minute mark. And I feel like I've talked about, I've gotten my marching orders

and I will find myself saying things like, I've said this on a number of sessions, about 45 minutes in, I'll be like, I've got this on a number of sessions, about 45 minutes in, I'll be like, I've got a practical plan that addresses my concern or complaint that I decided to bring up as part of my curriculum, right? And what I'll say is, I'll say, that's helpful. So it's like, it's basically me saying,

I got what I came for. I got my money's worth, you know, or however I'm thinking about it. I would say, that's very helpful. And then, but then I would feel like, okay, but it's also an assignment because now I need to apply this plan so that next time we talk in a week or two,

whenever the standing appointment is that I got to show that I've applied this like is there's as if there was a test I'm realizing that, you know, I, because at one point we talked about like doing some work where we were talking about the inner critic and he said, you know what, a creative exercise you can do is you can start to create a character profile for this voice of an inner critic in your mind. you run a company that is your life and your inner critic is the head of security. And he might say, his name is Bob, and Bob comes up to you and he's very zealous.

And he's like, well, you know, we've got to put armed guards at every door of the facility. And then you're like, Bob, I appreciate the sentiment, but we're not gonna put armed guards at every door. But what we are gonna do is this, and you put Bob in his place, and you, because he's just your head of security. He's not running your company.

But he's like, you can come up with any way you want. And so I was like, oh man, now, I just got a homework assignment. And I'm talking to Christy and Lily about this after. I'm like, and now it is, here it is. It's been a week and I'm talking to them in another week. I'm halfway there and I haven't, I was gonna journal down my character description

of what my inner critic looked like. I was like, and I asked Christy and Lily, I was like, is this what you mean by doing the work? Because this is like literal homework. And now that I've gone, I'm over halfway there and I haven't done my assignment. I'm like, now I'm all up in arms about that. And then we did have a session

and I was able to talk about how, about my inner critic and things that I, but I kind of crammed to do this homework. And like, it kind of rubbed me the wrong way. Yeah, well, I mean, and I haven't had an, and this may be my therapist's insight into me as a performer. I haven't really had any specific assignments.

He has suggested a couple of things that might be like, you know, I think it would be helpful to write that down or, you know, but what the thing that I've kind of gotten into the habit of is, you know, we kind of go through at the end, we kind of go through, he just always says, what stands out for you tonight? You know? And that's sort of the, that, that's my cue to figure out what the big, the big takeaways are. And then I went for a long time having these like really what I consider to be significant insights. And then I would sort of just remember them again next time. And now if there's a significant

insight, I do try to like, okay, take 10 minutes and journal about it just to kind of remember it, to kind of put a stake in the ground. But yeah, I think that, and so you have, since that assignment, you have been back. Yeah, I went back once and he didn't grill me on it. I told him I did do it and I did benefit from it. And like- But did you talk about the way that you thought about the assignment? No, and the thing that Christie and Lily told me

as I like told them about how I'm approaching it, they say things like, he's there for you. You seem to be talking like you're there for him. And which is kind of what we're saying. And they said, you should just, you should talk to him about that. And I was like, okay, that's, that's, that. Well, it's funny because when,

I was like, now you're giving me an assignment. So my therapist and I have talked about you and you going to therapy, right? We've talked, I talked to him about everything. So, and talking with him about your initial reservations that you've explained to me, that got us talking about the way that we talk about, we talk to each other in the way that I perceive it and, and that whole, the way that I perceive it as a performance. And I told him, I was like, sometimes, you know, for the longest time, I was like, what do I have for him? Yeah. And so that became like getting to that level of specificity and laying it all out there. And what you start realizing is that you just got

all these little things that you're hiding, not only from your therapist, from yourself. Yeah. And it's just like, you're playing this little game of like hide the ball. And you gotta just take, you gotta take the cups off the balls, man. You gotta put your balls on the table.

But I mean, I'm adjusting how I'm looking at it because I realize in the number of ways that I'm looking at it wrong. And I do realize going back to how we perceive therapy, I think the thing that I'm bringing to it is, you know, the only point of reference that I have directly is counseling and accountability groups. Now, in our church youth group and definitely in college, we would set up these accountability groups where it's like, hey, you have a small group, maybe it's just one other person that you trust and that you want to share

things that you want to improve in your life. It could be spiritual in nature. It could be practical in nature. But then you've got someone who will hold you accountable. When you get together, the main point of the meeting is for them to ask you, because you've given them permission. It's kind of like a personal trainer, especially in these times where you're not with the personal trainer, they're like, have you done your exercises this week?

Well, it could be that for anything. It could be like, did you meet this goal or that goal? Or did you not participate in this activity that you promised you weren't going to do? Kind of thing. And in most accountability groups between men, it would be, did you look at porn this week? Right. And being very aggressive about that. And the ultimate accountability hack, this is the thing that I never really understood until later. And I think a lot of people were operating under this principle.

The ultimate accountability hack is just lying. I never lie. You lied to an accountability partner? No, no, no, no. I'm saying that, no, I didn't lie. But I figured out later that some of the people- They were hacking the system.

They were hacking the system. They were lying. They were hacking more than the system. Oh, yeah. They were hacking the lumber. Can't hack the lumber. I've never actually heard that as a euphemism, but I think you know what I mean. I think it's whack the lumber.

Okay, well- To be specific. I feel like, and then when you go to counseling, if you have a problem and you like, like when I would meet with my pastor, he'd be like, I'm dealing with this. It was a positive experience, but I think in my mind, there was a negative aspect to it that I now apply to therapy, and that is,

I always assumed there was a judgment. You know, it's like- It's like going to confession. It's like going to confession if you're Catholic, which we never were, but yeah, so it's like, hey, I'm sharing this, and then the response that you get from the authority figure is, well, this is the proper belief or action, and this is how you're falling short. But you know

what? Here's the strength and here's the path to get back on the right track. But there's an implied judgment there, right? That the thing with therapy that I just can't seem to let sink in is that it's a judgment-free zone. There's been plenty of things that I put out, even on that first 20 minute phone call. You know, he asked me some pointed questions about how do I deal with stress and stuff like that and how I deal with the things that I was confessing.

I felt like I approached it like a confessional, and I just felt like I confessed more things and then would cringe. It's like, yeah, expecting there to be some implied unspoken judgment that then led to, so this is what you do to correct that. Yeah. But that's, I don't, that's not what therapy is. Therapy's not- No, but we're looking for our marching orders.

I mean, and- But there's a, but also a judgment. I think anticipating a judgment and then a correction, which the correction is the marching orders. And so there's a policing aspect that I think I've expected. It's very related to, I think it's probably pretty typical, but I think it was reinforced by our background. Because when you went to talk to someone who was in

some sort of spiritual authority over you, that's what you were looking for. You were looking for correction. What is the authoritative thing that I'm supposed to submit to and do right now? And there's some personalities that just lock onto that. Like for somebody who is a perfectionist, you lock onto the instructions. For someone who is a performer, we lock onto the instructions as well because it fulfills that need.

And I think the thing that's been so difficult is you start realizing that so many of your issues kind of relate to that orienting principle in life, the thing that you, the way that you approach everything, right? Which is why the Enneagram is very helpful because it helps you understand that sort of main driver. And then you start realizing that everything that I do, the way that I behave in my relationships, the way that I behave in my job and the things that I'm trying to do long term, they're all being filtered through that. And so when your therapy, because it's inevitable, because it's another relationship, right? It's just another relationship.

It's another thing that you do. Your tendency is always going to be to approach it in exactly the same way. I mean, I'm not saying I've fixed this. The only thing that I've done is it hit me real hard that, oh, you're just applying the same old RET approach to this as well. You've put the RET spin on this relationship. But the whole idea of this relationship. And, and, but, but this, the whole idea of this relationship is to break that down. And,

you know, and I think that you're so early in the process right now that you applying that pressure to yourself is actually keeping you from getting into the process and having the appointment, you know? Yeah, I don't think, I just, it's like my entire being just can't believe that he's there to help me explore and gain insight into myself without judgment. Like I haven't gotten there yet.

So I don't know if that's, it's probably something to talk about, you know? But again, I don't, I'm gonna send an email and say, hey, let's get back on track, you know, and then kind of give them some of the background. Or maybe I'll talk about that. A lot of this stuff I think I'll talk about in the next time I talk to him

and then set the groundwork for, hey, I do want to make this a standing appointment. I don't want there to be a question mark week to week where I have to make an active decision and can just bow out of this thing. And then just talk about some of these issues with him

and like half insights that I've gotten, you know, see how he responds to that. You know, it's, cause like you said, it is a relationship with a person and it's, but it's a professional relationship that then, you know, like I just, I need therapy to reorient my expectations, my approach, how I do this thing. But again, am I now, am I falling back into the trap

even as I talk? Like, okay. Constantly. I haven't been doing it right. I'm going to talk to you about how I do it right. Oh, dude, it's the, it's the. I'm doing it right now. It's, it's one of the reasons that, and we should, we should definitely talk about, do at least an episode on meditation, because I think that the thing that mindfulness meditation or just a simple like focusing on the breath meditation does is it reveals sort of the pattern and

nature of your thoughts. And for me, and I assume this is the case for many people, and probably also for you, like for me, the it's I can't, I'm I'm such a three, I'm such a performer that I cannot sit down and meditate without picturing someone watching me meditate. Like I'm always doing something for an audience, right? And then in the moment that I have an insight while meditating, I'm thinking about the conversation that I'm going

to have in the future with someone to tell them about this insight so that they will think better of me. But here's the thing. Meditation brings these things out in their ugliness and shows them to me. It shows that pattern. It's like you start realizing that, oh, you're getting into that thing again where you can't just be in the present. You're thinking about the past. You're thinking about the future. You're applying these principles.

And then in every single thing that you do, like for me, like this constantly, like I'm gonna have to be resistant to not talk to my therapist about this ear biscuit in a way that is like, hey, you know, those conversations that Link and I have had about therapy or whatever, like talking about it in a way that positions me as the protagonist, right, as the star, like that's my issue. And so I just have to constantly, but at least I'm thinking about it, right? At least there's an awareness. For the longest time, it was just like my way of being

and I didn't even understand the destructive nature of it. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, you're gonna, like the way that you think about the way that you think about it. I lived through it. No, I'm just joking. The way that you think about the way that you think

about it will be subject to the way that you think about it. Oh, okay. And you gotta think about that, man. All right, that was funny. I guess it, maybe I don't like that. It's also true. It's true. Okay, yes, again, I don't,

in conclusion, I have no conclusion for anyone else. So as with all ear biscuits, take from it what you want. Take nothing from it. But I appreciate the conversation. And again, it's helpful for me. And that's plenty. That's plenty. That's plenty.

Yes, well, I guess I'll give a rec now. Yeah, so it is your turn to give a rec, go for it. Thank you to whoever shared this video with me. And actually several of you shared this video. There was a video by a guy, a YouTuber named Bo Miles, who is an Australian university professor and sort of adventurer who has a YouTube channel that he doesn't upload very often,

but mostly because the videos that he makes take a lot of effort. They're very artistic vlogs and vlog is probably not the best word. But he did a video called the human bean, where he ate his body weight in beans, canned beans, and it took him 40 days. Docu-series, really.

Yeah, he documents his process in a very, I mean, he's a funny guy. He's funny, but he's also very introspective and thoughtful. And it was just, I got into his YouTube channel and, you know, he took a trip. He kayaked from Australia to Tasmania and made like a six part series. It's just some very special YouTube content that isn't, it's not at all really trying to play the game to get clicks. It's just like, this dude's just living a life

down there in Australia and has found a really compelling way to capture it. And it's been, you got me to watch it and it's been a source of inspiration for us. Yeah. Creatively, so. I agree with that Rhett. Beau Miles, and that's Beau spelled like B-E-A-U. Beautiful, Beau Miles. That's a good name for a therapist.

I'm not saying it's beautiful, but that's just how you spell his name. All right, hashtag Ear Biscuits. We'll speak at you next week. I just lost Rhett because my iPad died. I don't know if he's still talking to you, but I'm going to choose to shut down this episode so at least we have that from one of us.

I'm very interested in what Rhett's doing right now, but I have lost contact with him at the perfect moment. Hashtag Ear Biscuits. We'll talk at you next week. Thanks for all the love and support that you've given to me and Christy. And it means a lot.